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Impossible for new players! RAIDS!

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  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 24, 2020

    That still is very unreliable method. Not only it is based on anecdotal data (no one in reality is going to sit refreshing lfg 24 hours a day, 7 days a week to see what is really happening), but it also completely ignores statics. And we lack the data to say how LFG compares to statics in participation.

    Although i agree - there aren't likely many players that run shiverpeaks only. Although there are probably other reasons for that, than just the difficulty.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 24, 2020

    @Astralporing.1957 said:
    That still is very unreliable method. Not only it is based on anecdotal data (no one in reality is going to sit refreshing lfg 24 hours a day, 7 days a week to see what is really happening), but it also completely ignores statics. And we lack the data to say how LFG compares to statics in participation.

    Although i agree - there aren't likely many players that run shiverpeaks only. Although there are probably other reasons for that, than just the difficulty.

    Shiverpeak Pass is just an example, the other easy Strike Missions are in the same situation. I don't think there is any reason to form a static just to run Shiverpeak Pass or only the lower tier Strike Missions. You don't really need to check LFG all day, just enough through prime time and remember you it's a comparison, if every time I open LFG I see groups forming for "all strike mission" runs and none for just single Strike Missions (other than some achievement runs), I don't really need to check 24/7.

  • yann.1946yann.1946 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:
    That still is very unreliable method. Not only it is based on anecdotal data (no one in reality is going to sit refreshing lfg 24 hours a day, 7 days a week to see what is really happening), but it also completely ignores statics. And we lack the data to say how LFG compares to statics in participation.

    Although i agree - there aren't likely many players that run shiverpeaks only. Although there are probably other reasons for that, than just the difficulty.

    Shiverpeak Pass is just an example, the other easy Strike Missions are in the same situation. I don't think there is any reason to form a static just to run Shiverpeak Pass or only the lower tier Strike Missions. You don't really need to check LFG all day, just enough through prime time and remember you it's a comparison, if every time I open LFG I see groups forming for "all strike mission" runs and none for just single Strike Missions (other than some achievement runs), I don't really need to check 24/7.

    You're missing a small detail though. Maybe squads who ask for only one get filled way faster, so they don't appear for the same time as others.

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @yann.1946 said:
    You're missing a small detail though. Maybe squads who ask for only one get filled way faster, so they don't appear for the same time as others.

    That was the case during dungeons era, where people complained about speedrun/elitist LFGs dominating the content, not realizing that casual LFGs just tended to disappear very fastm and were really easy to overlook.

    Not saying this is definitely the case here, but that's still a good example why anecdotal evidence is not worth all that much.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • yann.1946yann.1946 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @yann.1946 said:
    You're missing a small detail though. Maybe squads who ask for only one get filled way faster, so they don't appear for the same time as others.

    That was the case during dungeons era, where people complained about speedrun/elitist LFGs dominating the content, not realizing that casual LFGs just tended to disappear very fastm and were really easy to overlook.

    Not saying this is definitely the case here, but that's still a good example why anecdotal evidence is not worth all that much.

    Yes, it's the same reason high requirement lfgs and raidsellers stay way longer and seem overrepresented

  • Katary.7096Katary.7096 Member ✭✭✭

    @Firebeard.1746 said:
    To give people an alternative to WvW for legendary armor/ring mats?

    That is the optional of the optional.

    Honestly no one needs to touch raids to cover every slot at this point. I can literally kill guards for hours on end roaming in WvW and the game will shove legendary crafting materials up my kitten. (sure I'll have to cap and/or kill another player every so often, but it's not that hard).

    Great.

    Why would you, if you love raiding,...

    I don't actually.

    ...be opposed to more people experiencing the same content you do, and progress at a slower pace? If you love the game mode, you should want more involvement, even if it's not at your level because then GASP anet has a reason to develop more of your difficult content of choice.

    Dev X: Holy! Have you seen the numbers for the new Infantile mode raids? Player engagement is 17 times greater than c. p. in the normal mode raids.
    Dev Y: Well, we expected that idea to be successful, but we certainly knocked it out the park with this one.
    Dev X: Say, if the vast majority of the playerbase is playing raids on the easiest setting, do we still need to make a hard version of a raid encounter? Barely anyone is playing them after all and it would save us a bit of work which we could dedicate to something else.
    Dev Y: Like World versus World?
    Dev X: What's that?
    Dev Y: Nevermind. But I think you're on to something. If we develop the raids with only the Infantile mode we can keep the largest amount of players engaged with relatively minimal investment on our end.
    Dev X: Wait a second, isn't that kind of like open world content?
    Dev Y: No no no no no. The raids are instanced group content.
    Dev X: That's it!

    And heck, these people are also not trying to take anything from you by suggesting your more difficult method be more rewarding (as it should be). Hardcore players already whine the raids aren't difficult enough. There's no reason for people to complain about difficulty if there's an alternate method of getting the same rewards.

    If it is just about the rewards, ask Arenanet to put them on the gemstore, that way they have a meaningful incentive to do it.

    And then you still get the CHALLENGING content you and the rest of the raid community claim you want (and you and anet don't have to worry about the haters if there's an easy mode and can go all-out).

    I am not part of the raid community.

    it's a win-win and legendary armor/ring isn't so special any more.

    If legendary gear is not supposed to be special then Arenanet needs to redesign it asap.

    Did you know the 2 versions of conflux are unique? You can leggie every slot not stepping into a raid ONCE (and honestly, I think that's great given the state of the content and community atm, it's great if it's with people you know/aren't judgy & in a static), I've never been able to make the second part of that happen, probably never will (the one guild I have that does training runs is completely open so kills are too hit or miss to be worth doing it all the time, even fi I could get my schedule to cooperate consistently)).

    You keep talking about legendary items, yet this topic is supposed to be about the problems that new players have with the game's raid content.

    Also, I don't know about FFXIV, but in WoW, you can just go back and solo all the bosses in old content (n-2 expac for weaker classes, n-1 expansion and beyond for ones with self-heals) if you want the old tier sets. If Anet doesn't fix raiding, I think they should add a mastery in EOD or IB that makes farming the bosses easier like this.

    There is nothing to fix, as the content is not broken. And even if the developers were capable of changing the mentality of the playerbase I would not suggest them to do it.

    It's old, mostly dead content, why not let players experience it/farm the cosmetics? WoW also changes the loot rules in this setting (usually to make it easier to get the transmogs, but in GW2 we have to consider breaking the economy), the same could be done in this scenario. maybe they wouldn't drop the 2g, the Exotic, anything that will break the economy, but relevant items for achievements etc still do. They can also disable special achievements that were intended for only high difficulty when the kill involved the mastery (just like AOTC in WoW).

    Obviously they should have a way to disable this mastery so what few people are still raiding are still raiding & get the full rewards, but honestly the content, especially W1-W4 are so old, they deserve a deprecation path like this if we want GW2 comparable to other MMOs.

    Some people are playing GW2 because it is different from the other MMOs.

    I also believe the raiding community is getting weaker, not stronger right now, all I've seen is anecdotal but that's my impresson.

    Sure.

  • Sobx.1758Sobx.1758 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 2, 2021

    Starting the raids is far from impossible, I've started by exlusively joining the training/no req raids through lfg. Yes, those aren't always on, which can make it a bit annoying at times, but I didn't have a problem joining raids daily doing just that. If I was somehow pressed on time to get into raiding asap, then I'd join raiding/raid training guilds and keep going with scheduled groups. There are ways to get into raiding, but if you plan to depend on other players to organize your type of fun, then you might need to wait longer, because it's safe to say you're not the only one waiting for that.


    @Shikaru.7618 said:

    @Hypnowulf.7403 said:
    Do you see, then? You could either be having fun and leisure time—the purpose of a video game; Or you could be addicted to grinding, getting judged by other players, being a scapegoat when things don't work out, fretting over ArcDPS, and just generally not having a fun time. I think most just want to have fun.

    That's why the raid audience will only continue to shrink.

    I happen to like fretting over arcdps, making informed decisions about who's failing, and seeing how far I can push my class. Who are you to say I'm not having fun?

    Toxicity only happens when non like minded players try to join each others groups. Stick to your own kind and there won't be a problem.

    Yup, a lot of the problems for people that "just don't want to try too hard" (...or something) come from those people not trying to organize groups for themselves or not joining the groups with similar point of view. If you want a chill, no req group of first timers then by all means: create the squad in lfg and wait for the people with similar goals to join you. For some reason there are people that seem to think the weight of organizing their time should be on other players or anet.

  • The Fear.3865The Fear.3865 Member ✭✭✭

    Talkin about addiction when you spend half of your day writin a post on gw2forums..

    I started raids 2 years ago with no exp at all, alone, now I have 1k li+ld and all cms/title on full pugs. This is what raiding is about imo, taking your time, progress through the learning curve, doing your best and then, enjoy.

    Please, leave my dopamine system in peace, feel free to explore yours on the living story...

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Sobx.1758 said:
    If you want a chill, no req group of first timers then by all means: create the squad in lfg and wait for the people with similar goals to join you. For some reason there are people that seem to think the weight of organizing their time should be on other players or anet.

    Ah, but that's exactly because for most people that want chill groups, once they end up having to organize it such a group stops being chill. Thus, organizing a chill group with LFG becomes a contradiction.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • Sobx.1758Sobx.1758 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 3, 2021

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @Sobx.1758 said:
    If you want a chill, no req group of first timers then by all means: create the squad in lfg and wait for the people with similar goals to join you. For some reason there are people that seem to think the weight of organizing their time should be on other players or anet.

    Ah, but that's exactly because for most people that want chill groups, once they end up having to organize it such a group stops being chill. Thus, organizing a chill group with LFG becomes a contradiction.

    I fail to see how creating a group in lfg suddenly contradicts a "chill" playstyle preferences or no req raiding. From my point of view I'd say it's not a case of "contradicting" anything, but probably... laziness or even a bit of entitlement (YOU will organize my fun for me!).

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Sobx.1758 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @Sobx.1758 said:
    If you want a chill, no req group of first timers then by all means: create the squad in lfg and wait for the people with similar goals to join you. For some reason there are people that seem to think the weight of organizing their time should be on other players or anet.

    Ah, but that's exactly because for most people that want chill groups, once they end up having to organize it such a group stops being chill. Thus, organizing a chill group with LFG becomes a contradiction.

    I fail to see how creating a group in lfg suddenly contradicts a "chill" playstyle preferences or no req raiding.

    There's a major difference betweenjust posting a "chill" group in LFG, and posting a group in LFG and ensuring the run will be a success. First can be chill - but only until the first wipe. Second is rarely chill, unless you are already heavily experienced in raiding - which the people you talk about definitely aren't.

    From my point of view I'd say it's not a case of "contradicting" anything, but probably... laziness or even a bit of entitlement (YOU will organize my fun for me!).

    From your point of view, maybe. It's not you having an issue here, though. What would be laziness if done by you, doesn't have to be the same when it happens to someone else.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • Sobx.1758Sobx.1758 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 3, 2021

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @Sobx.1758 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @Sobx.1758 said:
    If you want a chill, no req group of first timers then by all means: create the squad in lfg and wait for the people with similar goals to join you. For some reason there are people that seem to think the weight of organizing their time should be on other players or anet.

    Ah, but that's exactly because for most people that want chill groups, once they end up having to organize it such a group stops being chill. Thus, organizing a chill group with LFG becomes a contradiction.

    I fail to see how creating a group in lfg suddenly contradicts a "chill" playstyle preferences or no req raiding.

    There's a major difference betweenjust posting a "chill" group in LFG, and posting a group in LFG and ensuring the run will be a success. First can be chill - but only until the first wipe.

    ?
    Have you ever been in a learning/chill/no req squad? Because I was (even later, without specifically looking for it) and that's a weird thing to say as a general rule. Most people joining these squads know there will be mistakes, because for most probably that's the reason they want to join them in the first place -to be able to make mistakes. I don't know where that "it's chill till first wipe" came from. Can it happen? Sure, you can't possibly know what the player joining your squad thinks. But is this even close to being some kind of general rule in those squads? Definitely not.

    Second is rarely chill, unless you are already heavily experienced in raiding - which the people you talk about definitely aren't.

    The main thing you need to do there is list general roles you need in your squad, which isn't remotely hard or troublesome. Then you need to absolutely know that a no req/chill raids won't have the success rate of a higher req/experienced squads, which seems pretty obvious to me. I don't see how someone wants to have a chill/no req raid while at the same time can't stand the idea of failing once. That's some backwards logic that to me would point at that person not exactly wanting "a chill raid", but a squad that will consistently carry him/her, no mater what his/her performance is. It's almost as if the whole point of having requirements is to prove your experience. If you want to remove the process of checking if someone's experienced, but then also have a squad full of random experienced people then.. uh.. good luck with that, I guess? Not much more to say here than stating the fact that it's just an unreasonable expectation.

    But yeah, at this point I still fail to see how creating a group in lfg that matches your expectations suddenly contradicts a "chill" playstyle preferences or no req raiding. Answering to that with the player having expectations of instantly succeeding doesn't seem exactly related -and if it is, then for me it's pretty misguided.

    From my point of view I'd say it's not a case of "contradicting" anything, but probably... laziness or even a bit of entitlement (YOU will organize my fun for me!).

    From your point of view, maybe. It's not you having an issue here, though.

    Yes, it's not me having the issue here despite me being in that exact position, starting with raids LONG after many other players and succeeding strictly through lfg while having 0 li. Which is the point I'm trying to make here.
    Annoying to start? Sure.
    Impossible? Far from it.
    Can you improve your chances to get raiding squads more consistently through actually starting your squads? Yes. Sure, you don't have to if you don't want to, but then it's pretty weird to complain when someone else doesn't do it for you if all you want to do is be passive and succeed.

    What would be laziness if done by you, doesn't have to be the same when it happens to someone else.

    Maybe. Continue?

  • yann.1946yann.1946 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @Sobx.1758 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @Sobx.1758 said:
    If you want a chill, no req group of first timers then by all means: create the squad in lfg and wait for the people with similar goals to join you. For some reason there are people that seem to think the weight of organizing their time should be on other players or anet.

    Ah, but that's exactly because for most people that want chill groups, once they end up having to organize it such a group stops being chill. Thus, organizing a chill group with LFG becomes a contradiction.

    I fail to see how creating a group in lfg suddenly contradicts a "chill" playstyle preferences or no req raiding.

    There's a major difference betweenjust posting a "chill" group in LFG, and posting a group in LFG and ensuring the run will be a success. First can be chill - but only until the first wipe. Second is rarely chill, unless you are already heavily experienced in raiding - which the people you talk about definitely aren't.

    Isn't one of the points of a chill run that you don't mind wiping?

    From my point of view I'd say it's not a case of "contradicting" anything, but probably... laziness or even a bit of entitlement (YOU will organize my fun for me!).

    From your point of view, maybe. It's not you having an issue here, though. What would be laziness if done by you, doesn't have to be the same when it happens to someone else.

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @yann.1946 said:
    Isn't one of the points of a chill run that you don't mind wiping?

    For some players, maybe. For others "chill" means not having to bother with all the organizational stuff, angry people etc. Someone wanting a chill run does not necessarily want to keep wiping, though. Wipes are usually chill mainly for people that have absolutely no problem with succeeding.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • yann.1946yann.1946 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @yann.1946 said:
    Isn't one of the points of a chill run that you don't mind wiping?

    For some players, maybe. For others "chill" means not having to bother with all the organizational stuff, angry people etc. Someone wanting a chill run does not necessarily want to keep wiping, though. Wipes are usually chill mainly for people that have absolutely no problem with succeeding.

    Isn't part of not wanting angry people, not getting angry yourself incase things don't go as you want.
    Otherwise this feels very hypocritical to me.

    But i have to agree, not minding wiping is probably the biggest help incase you want to raid.

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @yann.1946 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @yann.1946 said:
    Isn't one of the points of a chill run that you don't mind wiping?

    For some players, maybe. For others "chill" means not having to bother with all the organizational stuff, angry people etc. Someone wanting a chill run does not necessarily want to keep wiping, though. Wipes are usually chill mainly for people that have absolutely no problem with succeeding.

    Isn't part of not wanting angry people, not getting angry yourself incase things don't go as you want.

    No. The main point is not "no angry people". It's the "not having to bother with". At the point you get angry that plan already failed.

    Otherwise this feels very hypocritical to me.

    Not really. See above.

    But i have to agree, not minding wiping is probably the biggest help incase you want to raid.

    And that's why current raids will always appeal only to a small minority of players. Most players do mind wiping. Even most raiders do.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • Sobx.1758Sobx.1758 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 4, 2021

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @yann.1946 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @yann.1946 said:
    Isn't one of the points of a chill run that you don't mind wiping?

    For some players, maybe. For others "chill" means not having to bother with all the organizational stuff, angry people etc. Someone wanting a chill run does not necessarily want to keep wiping, though. Wipes are usually chill mainly for people that have absolutely no problem with succeeding.

    Isn't part of not wanting angry people, not getting angry yourself incase things don't go as you want.

    No. The main point is not "no angry people". It's the "not having to bother with". At the point you get angry that plan already failed.

    And probably the only time they get angry is when they fail.
    "chill raids" = "no angry people" (who obviously could get angry when the group fails, because why else would they?), but also "chill raids" = "only chill until the first time they fail".
    You seem to be contradicting yourself and your loose deifnition of "chill raiding groups".

    Otherwise this feels very hypocritical to me.

    Not really. See above.

    I agree with yann, wanting all of it at the same time makes no sense and is mostly contradictory. If you don't fail, you don't need to worry about anyone getting angry. If you want to succeed more, you need experienced people. If you want experience people, you need a way to check if they did what they claim they did, at which point you're just entering regular xx LI req groups.
    I'm seriously confused by your take on this here.


    And btw you still left this super vague/open ended, which didn't really answer anything:

    What would be laziness if done by you, doesn't have to be the same when it happens to someone else.

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Sobx.1758 said:
    You seem to be contradicting yourself and your loose deifnition of "chill raiding groups".

    Obviously, the moment someone gets angry (for any reason), the "chill" run stops being chill. See no contradiction here. I mean, how it can be a chill run if you're not chill anymore?

    Unfortunately, the answer to "i don't want to get irritated/angry for any reason" is generally not "then don't get irritated/angry". I mean, sure, in theory that would work, but it completely misses the point.

    I agree with yann, wanting all of it at the same time makes no sense and is mostly contradictory.

    Again, no contradiction here whatsoever.

    If you don't fail, you don't need to worry about anyone getting angry.

    Yes.

    If you want to succeed more, you need experienced people.

    Yes.

    If you want experience people, you need a way to check if they did what they claim they did, at which point you're just entering regular xx LI req groups.

    Yes. Exactly. By that point, if you need to actually organize all that, you no longer have a chill run.

    I'm seriously confused by your take on this here.

    Yes. I have noticed. Can't help that though. I mean, it should not be that hard to understand.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • Sobx.1758Sobx.1758 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 6, 2021

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @Sobx.1758 said:
    You seem to be contradicting yourself and your loose deifnition of "chill raiding groups".

    Obviously, the moment someone gets angry (for any reason), the "chill" run stops being chill. See no contradiction here. I mean, how it can be a chill run if you're not chill anymore?

    Unfortunately, the answer to "i don't want to get irritated/angry for any reason" is generally not "then don't get irritated/angry". I mean, sure, in theory that would work, but it completely misses the point.

    I agree with yann, wanting all of it at the same time makes no sense and is mostly contradictory.

    Again, no contradiction here whatsoever.

    The whole contradiction is in the fact that you claim people join "chill squads" and then rage/get angry after one failure. That's contradicting the point of chill squads. What's not to understand here?

    What do you think "chill raiding" is? Disorganized/chaotic run that instantly succeeds? That's not what it is. What you said about people ending "chill raids after one fail" is the contradiction and what it contradicts is the very point of those squads.

    Yes. Exactly. By that point, if you need to actually organize all that, you no longer have a chill run.

    ?? :lol:
    Have you even joined any squads like this? Like... ever? Because it seems you don't understand the concept.

    I mean, it should not be that hard to understand.

    Yeah, seriously.

  • Linken.6345Linken.6345 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @Sobx.1758 said:
    You seem to be contradicting yourself and your loose deifnition of "chill raiding groups".

    Obviously, the moment someone gets angry (for any reason), the "chill" run stops being chill. See no contradiction here. I mean, how it can be a chill run if you're not chill anymore?

    Unfortunately, the answer to "i don't want to get irritated/angry for any reason" is generally not "then don't get irritated/angry". I mean, sure, in theory that would work, but it completely misses the point.

    I agree with yann, wanting all of it at the same time makes no sense and is mostly contradictory.

    Again, no contradiction here whatsoever.

    If you don't fail, you don't need to worry about anyone getting angry.

    Yes.

    If you want to succeed more, you need experienced people.

    Yes.

    If you want experience people, you need a way to check if they did what they claim they did, at which point you're just entering regular xx LI req groups.

    Yes. Exactly. By that point, if you need to actually organize all that, you no longer have a chill run.

    I'm seriously confused by your take on this here.

    Yes. I have noticed. Can't help that though. I mean, it should not be that hard to understand.

    So by your definition chill squads can not be nor will ever be in the game.

    Since someone have to organize it ( stops being chill) for it to succeed first try, in order for people to not rage quit.

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Linken.6345 said:
    So by your definition chill squads can not be nor will ever be in the game.

    Since someone have to organize it ( stops being chill) for it to succeed first try, in order for people to not rage quit.

    Not quite. Obviously, people are different, and not everyone will consider having to organize to be an aggravating nuisance. It was mainly a point showing that if someone considers organizing to not be chill (and there's a lot of players that do), telling them to "just organize a chill run of your own" is not helping any. Because, yes, it is impossible for such people to organize a chill raid run.

    @Sobx.1758 said:
    The whole contradiction is in the fact that you claim people join "chill squads" and then rage/get angry after one failure. That's contradicting the point of chill squads. What's not to understand here?

    It's not. They rage quit the moment squad stops being chill. Is that really so hard to understand?

    What do you think "chill raiding" is? Disorganized/chaotic run that instantly succeeds? That's not what it is.

    Ah, but that depends on the people. For some players "chill run" is exactly this - something where they don't need to engage their mind and just go on auto. Which in raids is generally achievable only if you are a skilled veteran, or are in a very good group that will do all the hard stuff (or, preferably, both).

    What you said about people ending "chill raids after one fail" is the contradiction and what it contradicts is the very point of those squads.

    There are different types of chill squads. Obviously, the term will mean something completely different for veterans that can do the run in their sleep, than for the inexperienced and/or less skilled players that cannot do that.

    As i said, it's easy to treat a wipe to be chill, if you don't care about succeeding because you know you can easily do this as soon as you get a bit more serious. But we started this discussion with talking about players that are not yet at this level. Those players do care about succeeding.

    Yes. Exactly. By that point, if you need to actually organize all that, you no longer have a chill run.

    ?? :lol:
    Have you even joined any squads like this? Like... ever? Because it seems you don't understand the concept.

    Yes, i did. And i can tell you that every single time i had to organize a run, no matter how laid back it was to be, it definitely wasn't chill to me (even if it might have been for others).

    Just in case you don't remember, the whole discussion started because someone (meaning: you) advised that if the first timers want a chill raid run, they should just organize it themselves. If there's any contradiction here at all, it lies in this very suggestion.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Sobx.1758 said:
    If you want a chill, no req group of first timers then by all means: create the squad in lfg and wait for the people with similar goals to join you. For some reason there are people that seem to think the weight of organizing their time should be on other players or anet.

    Or better yet, get help from your guild. Raids were always supposed to be guild activities anyway.

    @Astralporing.1957 said:
    Because, yes, it is impossible for such people to organize a chill raid run.

    I'm curious, do "chill guilds" not organize anything?

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 6, 2021

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Sobx.1758 said:
    If you want a chill, no req group of first timers then by all means: create the squad in lfg and wait for the people with similar goals to join you. For some reason there are people that seem to think the weight of organizing their time should be on other players or anet.

    Or better yet, get help from your guild. Raids were always supposed to be guild activities anyway.

    "Getting help from your guild" would be a solution, sure, but is the exact opposite of what @Sobx.1758 suggested. That would be exactly the case of putting the weight of organizing this on other players (guild mates, in this case). Which generally is the only option of having a chill experience available for first timers.

    @maddoctor.2738 said:
    I'm curious, do "chill guilds" not organize anything?

    Some do. There is usually at least one of two factors present (and sometimes two of them). Either the guild has some veteran raiders that organize everything so the other players can have chill experience, or nooone in the group really cares about succeeding and learning anything.

    Learning completely from zero may be fun for some types of players, but even for them is hardly chill. Raids are a content of such difficulty, that it's hard to be laidback unless you are either completely fine with getting absolutely nowhere, or have a group that is well overqualified for the content already.

    So, again, telling first-time would be raiders that they should "just organize a chill raid themselves" is not a good advice, and cannot rightly be considered as something offered in good faith.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Astralporing.1957 said:
    "Getting help from your guild" would be a solution, sure, but is the exact opposite of what @Sobx.1758 suggested. That would be exactly the case of putting the weight of organizing this on other players (guild mates, in this case). Which generally is the only option of having a chill experience available for first timers.

    I know and I agree. My answer to the "If you want a chill, no req group of first timers" argument, is "get help from your guild" and will always be. In my opinion the LFG isn't a place for first timers anyway, it's more for already organized groups to fill their last spots, or for experienced players to look for quick runs.

    Learning completely from zero may be fun for some types of players, but even for them is hardly chill. Raids are a content of such difficulty, that it's hard to be laidback unless you are either completely fine with getting absolutely nowhere, or have a group that is well overqualified for the content already.

    That depends on the raid boss/wing. If you think in binary success/failure then you'll feel like you are getting nowhere, but the best raid bosses out there consist of enough phases to make you feel the progress as you go through them. Now obviously not every boss is well designed like that, but first timers can start from those (and should start anyway)

    So, again, telling first-time would be raiders that they should "just organize a chill raid themselves" is not a good advice, and cannot rightly be considered as something offered in good faith.

    Yes, organize a chill run on LFG is not good advice, as I said above the LFG isn't a first time user tool anyway. But first timers organizing a chill raid themselves (using their guild) is very useful advice. When I started raiding with my guild that's what we did and I'm sure most other people started that way. After all, nobody was born Raid-ready. Sure there are those that first did runs using the LFG and then went back to lead their guilds, but I think those were a minority, especially during the first raid releases.

    So the idea of first timers to form teams among themselves and play the content with each other is a very good one.

  • Linken.6345Linken.6345 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Sobx.1758 said:
    If you want a chill, no req group of first timers then by all means: create the squad in lfg and wait for the people with similar goals to join you. For some reason there are people that seem to think the weight of organizing their time should be on other players or anet.

    Or better yet, get help from your guild. Raids were always supposed to be guild activities anyway.

    "Getting help from your guild" would be a solution, sure, but is the exact opposite of what @Sobx.1758 suggested. That would be exactly the case of putting the weight of organizing this on other players (guild mates, in this case). Which generally is the only option of having a chill experience available for first timers.

    @maddoctor.2738 said:
    I'm curious, do "chill guilds" not organize anything?

    Some do. There is usually at least one of two factors present (and sometimes two of them). Either the guild has some veteran raiders that organize everything so the other players can have chill experience, or nooone in the group really cares about succeeding and learning anything.

    Learning completely from zero may be fun for some types of players, but even for them is hardly chill. Raids are a content of such difficulty, that it's hard to be laidback unless you are either completely fine with getting absolutely nowhere, or have a group that is well overqualified for the content already.

    So, again, telling first-time would be raiders that they should "just organize a chill raid themselves" is not a good advice, and cannot rightly be considered as something offered in good faith.

    They could always pay other people to have a laid back experience.

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 6, 2021

    @Astralporing.1957 said:
    So, again, telling first-time would be raiders that they should "just organize a chill raid themselves" is not a good advice, and cannot rightly be considered as something offered in good faith.

    It's actually great advice. By your own logic they will soon learn that:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:
    Learning completely from zero may be fun for some types of players, but even for them is hardly chill. Raids are a content of such difficulty, that it's hard to be laidback unless you are either completely fine with getting absolutely nowhere, or have a group that is well overqualified for the content already.

    If they want to "get somewhere" or see success in this content, they will have to either modify their approach, if unsuccessful, or face hardships and failure until they modify their approach. That's literally a learning process in a nut shell. Remember, we are talking about advice how to succeed at challenging content in this game, not how to get freebee loot left and right.

    Which leads us full circle to:
    Take responsibility for your and the groups own failures (not you specifically but rather each player individually), stop blaming other players for lack of success and most of all stop complaining about other players who want to see success actually having demands and certain compositions in mind. In short: if everyone bothered more with how they approach this content and how their approach is successful or not, instead of telling others how to play, we'd all be better off.

    All you as a player can affect here is how you approach this mentally, aka if you want to be chill and relaxed about the progress, or lack thereof, or not. That is very well possible with the right group of players, but might require further organization and finding via say the guild system. What does not work is expecting success while putting in no work or no improvement, then expecting everyone else to be "chill" about bad players who can't perform, especially if this pertains to one self.

    Seems exactly how challenging content should work no?

    If all else fails, you get option C:

    @Linken.6345 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Sobx.1758 said:
    If you want a chill, no req group of first timers then by all means: create the squad in lfg and wait for the people with similar goals to join you. For some reason there are people that seem to think the weight of organizing their time should be on other players or anet.

    Or better yet, get help from your guild. Raids were always supposed to be guild activities anyway.

    "Getting help from your guild" would be a solution, sure, but is the exact opposite of what @Sobx.1758 suggested. That would be exactly the case of putting the weight of organizing this on other players (guild mates, in this case). Which generally is the only option of having a chill experience available for first timers.

    @maddoctor.2738 said:
    I'm curious, do "chill guilds" not organize anything?

    Some do. There is usually at least one of two factors present (and sometimes two of them). Either the guild has some veteran raiders that organize everything so the other players can have chill experience, or nooone in the group really cares about succeeding and learning anything.

    Learning completely from zero may be fun for some types of players, but even for them is hardly chill. Raids are a content of such difficulty, that it's hard to be laidback unless you are either completely fine with getting absolutely nowhere, or have a group that is well overqualified for the content already.

    So, again, telling first-time would be raiders that they should "just organize a chill raid themselves" is not a good advice, and cannot rightly be considered as something offered in good faith.

    They could always pay other people to have a laid back experience.

    which from an effort and "chill" perspective is probably the most chill one can get.

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:
    So, again, telling first-time would be raiders that they should "just organize a chill raid themselves" is not a good advice, and cannot rightly be considered as something offered in good faith.

    It's actually great advice. By your own logic they will soon learn that:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:
    Learning completely from zero may be fun for some types of players, but even for them is hardly chill. Raids are a content of such difficulty, that it's hard to be laidback unless you are either completely fine with getting absolutely nowhere, or have a group that is well overqualified for the content already.

    If they want to "get somewhere" or see success in this content, they will have to either modify their approach, if unsuccessful, or face hardships and failure until they modify their approach. That's literally a learning process in a nut shell. Remember, we are talking about advice how to succeed at challenging content in this game, not how to get freebee loot left and right.

    Um. So, let me get this straight. Someone complains how they have trouble with finding a chill groups in LFG to learn raiding with. Someone else advises them to start one themselves. You admit that you know the first player has a bad approach (they aren't likely to go anywhere far if they keep insisting on chill approach to it). And yet, you think that this advice by the second player is great, knowing full well it is going to fail, (instead of doing what @maddoctor.2738 did and pointing out this is bad approach, and suggesting alternatives)? And you don;t think there's something wrong with this kind of reasoning?

    Seriously, and then people are suddenly surprised that a lot of first time players prefer to steer away from "advices" from veterans...

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • Linken.6345Linken.6345 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:
    So, again, telling first-time would be raiders that they should "just organize a chill raid themselves" is not a good advice, and cannot rightly be considered as something offered in good faith.

    It's actually great advice. By your own logic they will soon learn that:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:
    Learning completely from zero may be fun for some types of players, but even for them is hardly chill. Raids are a content of such difficulty, that it's hard to be laidback unless you are either completely fine with getting absolutely nowhere, or have a group that is well overqualified for the content already.

    If they want to "get somewhere" or see success in this content, they will have to either modify their approach, if unsuccessful, or face hardships and failure until they modify their approach. That's literally a learning process in a nut shell. Remember, we are talking about advice how to succeed at challenging content in this game, not how to get freebee loot left and right.

    Um. So, let me get this straight. Someone complains how they have trouble with finding a chill groups in LFG to learn raiding with. Someone else advises them to start one themselves. You admit that you know the first player has a bad approach (they aren't likely to go anywhere far if they keep insisting on chill approach to it). And yet, you think that this advice by the second player is great, knowing full well it is going to fail, (instead of doing what @maddoctor.2738 did and pointing out this is bad approach, and suggesting alternatives)? And you don;t think there's something wrong with this kind of reasoning?

    Seriously, and then people are suddenly surprised that a lot of first time players prefer to steer away from "advices" from veterans...

    It is because that bad experience that player learned something (hopefully) and either quits or find a way around the obstacle.
    Like for example finding a guild or maybe some of those players in the squad were good people and then added to friend list.

  • Mungo Zen.9364Mungo Zen.9364 Member ✭✭✭

    Y’all talking about being chill? Chill??

    If I join a group it is up to me to find my own inner chill regardless of any other factors. If I am learning, I gotta be chill. If I am leading, I gotta be chill. If I am failing, I gotta be chill, if I am succeeding, hey, still chill.

    Some people have a tendency to equate failure with an excuse to be negative, angry, upset, whatever.

    Being chill when failing is pretty important otherwise you become that person who is freaking out whenever something new and challenging comes along. Failure is an opportunity to learn, hey that’s chill.

    Being a chill leader means helping your group keep chill. It means setting the standard for which the people who join you should follow. That does not mean it is hard work or challenging, or not chill.

    So as a leader or a grunt, grouped or alone, it is up to me to be chill. If I am in a place where my chill is busted, that is on me.

    That said, if I am grouped with players who are busting my chill, it is okay to leave and....be chill.

    Say chill again, please.

  • Sobx.1758Sobx.1758 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @Sobx.1758 said:
    The whole contradiction is in the fact that you claim people join "chill squads" and then rage/get angry after one failure. That's contradicting the point of chill squads. What's not to understand here?

    It's not. They rage quit the moment squad stops being chill. Is that really so hard to understand?

    It is. You said they rage when they fail for the first time. In vast majority of cases there won't be anyone that does that, because from my experience people understand the implication of those no-req squads and consist mostly of people that want to learn OR help others learn.
    Now you say "they rage quit the moment squad stops being chill"? That's not what you said earlier, did you back out of your initial "stops being chill after first fail" or are you just trying to dodge facts after realising what you said is contradictory to the very point of those squads?

    What do you think "chill raiding" is? Disorganized/chaotic run that instantly succeeds? That's not what it is.

    Ah, but that depends on the people. For some players "chill run" is exactly this - something where they don't need to engage their mind and just go on auto. Which in raids is generally achievable only if you are a skilled veteran, or are in a very good group that will do all the hard stuff (or, preferably, both).

    Those people finished raids many times and join squads with higher li-req squads, which is where everyone can go "on autopilot". Meanwhile this thread is about getting into raiding. Nice try pivoting into something completely different all of the sudden.
    "chill squds" were never about "getting experienced people to go on autopilot", so just as suspected: you very clearly just didn't/don't understand what those squads are, which is why you don't understand how you keep contradicting yourself in this thread.

    What you said about people ending "chill raids after one fail" is the contradiction and what it contradicts is the very point of those squads.

    There are different types of chill squads. Obviously, the term will mean something completely different for veterans that can do the run in their sleep, than for the inexperienced and/or less skilled players that cannot do that.

    lmao, no, there are no "different types of chill squads", as I already explained above: veterans have no problem with joining higher li req squds if they want to complete the content "on autopilot".
    Again, just check what thread you're in and what my initial responses were about. You either lost the content (including literally the whole purpose of the thread), or just pivot into something completely different for the sake of not admiting you're wrong when you realised you're wrong.

    As i said, it's easy to treat a wipe to be chill, if you don't care about succeeding because you know you can easily do this as soon as you get a bit more serious. But we started this discussion with talking about players that are not yet at this level. Those players do care about succeeding.

    If you want a chill, no req group of first timers then by all means: create the squad in lfg and wait for the people with similar goals to join you.

    This is what you've initially answered to on this page and now you're talking about veterans "wanting chill raids" while somehow connecting it to "chill no LI-req squads". Veterans that want ""different chill experience by succeeding on autopilot"" just join high li req, so not sure how they're suddenly part of this discussion other then... you know, you changing subject for the sake of arguing.

    Yes. Exactly. By that point, if you need to actually organize all that, you no longer have a chill run.

    ?? :lol:
    Have you even joined any squads like this? Like... ever? Because it seems you don't understand the concept.

    Yes, i did. And i can tell you that every single time i had to organize a run, no matter how laid back it was to be, it definitely wasn't chill to me (even if it might have been for others).

    Again, just proving you're missing the whole point here. IF that's not on purpose, then you might want to reread from the top. If it's on purpose, then pretty hilarious effort with that pivot about "what chill raids are".
    You claim you understand what chill squads are, but then keep describing the ones with LI requirements and experienced people "going on autopilot to success on the first try". If that's what you (or anyone else) want, then this thread and this advice isn't for you. Seems pretty obvious.

  • Sobx.1758Sobx.1758 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 6, 2021

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Sobx.1758 said:
    If you want a chill, no req group of first timers then by all means: create the squad in lfg and wait for the people with similar goals to join you. For some reason there are people that seem to think the weight of organizing their time should be on other players or anet.

    Or better yet, get help from your guild. Raids were always supposed to be guild activities anyway.

    "Getting help from your guild" would be a solution, sure, but is the exact opposite of what @Sobx.1758 suggested. That would be exactly the case of putting the weight of organizing this on other players (guild mates, in this case). Which generally is the only option of having a chill experience available for first timers.
    [...]
    [...]
    Learning completely from zero may be fun for some types of players, but even for them is hardly chill. Raids are a content of such difficulty, that it's hard to be laidback unless you are either completely fine with getting absolutely nowhere, or have a group that is well overqualified for the content already.

    So, again, telling first-time would be raiders that they should "just organize a chill raid themselves" is not a good advice, and cannot rightly be considered as something offered in good faith.

    My advice is one of the available solutions that can help people get into raiding and raid "on their terms". Pretending that I somehow tried to make "be all end all" advice for any raider is just silly.
    And no, what you claim is "the only option of having a chill experience available for first timers" isn't "the only option" and that's part of the point. There's plenty of ways to get into raids, as I said earlier, I did exactly what I advice here, so I don't see how that's "contradictory" or EVEN MORESO "not offered in a good faith".

    Now, if someone wants to get into raiding but not learn, then good luck with that. I'm giving my advice to people that actually want to learn raid encounters, not the ones that want to be freeloaders carried by other players with 100% success rate. That's not how you learn.

  • Obtena.7952Obtena.7952 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 6, 2021

    The OP's complaint doesn't make sense. SOMEHOW, everyone that is 'in' raids was new at some point ... and figured out how to get 'in', regardless of their skill level or gear. I'm sure there isn't just one way to do that either. If what the OP said was true, NO ONE would have EVER gotten into raids.

    Nothing to change here. Nothing to see here.

    If you're on a highway and roadrunner goes "beep beep"
    Just step aside or you might end up in a heap

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 6, 2021

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:
    So, again, telling first-time would be raiders that they should "just organize a chill raid themselves" is not a good advice, and cannot rightly be considered as something offered in good faith.

    It's actually great advice. By your own logic they will soon learn that:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:
    Learning completely from zero may be fun for some types of players, but even for them is hardly chill. Raids are a content of such difficulty, that it's hard to be laidback unless you are either completely fine with getting absolutely nowhere, or have a group that is well overqualified for the content already.

    If they want to "get somewhere" or see success in this content, they will have to either modify their approach, if unsuccessful, or face hardships and failure until they modify their approach. That's literally a learning process in a nut shell. Remember, we are talking about advice how to succeed at challenging content in this game, not how to get freebee loot left and right.

    Um. So, let me get this straight. Someone complains how they have trouble with finding a chill groups in LFG to learn raiding with. Someone else advises them to start one themselves. You admit that you know the first player has a bad approach (they aren't likely to go anywhere far if they keep insisting on chill approach to it). And yet, you think that this advice by the second player is great, knowing full well it is going to fail, (instead of doing what @maddoctor.2738 did and pointing out this is bad approach, and suggesting alternatives)? And you don;t think there's something wrong with this kind of reasoning?

    Seriously, and then people are suddenly surprised that a lot of first time players prefer to steer away from "advices" from veterans...

    Yes, exactly. My advice boils down to:
    change your approach and or attitude.

    In this case who ever complains about not finding chill groups obviously is not looking in the right places, makes assumptions on how that chill group is supposed to look or perform or they have the incorrect personal mental attitude.

    I don't see how that is in any way incorrect. You on the other hand are arguing that "chill" groups are not possible or do not happen, which is plain incorrect.

    I then folded in the overall discourse which happens constantly on these forums and criticize the blame game which some love to play and how it relates to the entire argument of chill raids and successful raids.

  • Sir Alymer.3406Sir Alymer.3406 Member ✭✭✭

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Sobx.1758 said:
    If you want a chill, no req group of first timers then by all means: create the squad in lfg and wait for the people with similar goals to join you. For some reason there are people that seem to think the weight of organizing their time should be on other players or anet.

    Or better yet, get help from your guild. Raids were always supposed to be guild activities anyway.

    "Getting help from your guild" would be a solution, sure, but is the exact opposite of what @Sobx.1758 suggested. That would be exactly the case of putting the weight of organizing this on other players (guild mates, in this case). Which generally is the only option of having a chill experience available for first timers.

    /g(1, 2, 3, 4, 5) "Hey friends, any of you want to run (Raid Instance Name Here) and try to kill (Raid Boss Name here)? LF all roles and this is a chill learning run!"

    or that in discord, just replace the "/g" with "@(role)".

    @maddoctor.2738 said:
    I'm curious, do "chill guilds" not organize anything?

    Some do. There is usually at least one of two factors present (and sometimes two of them). Either the guild has some veteran raiders that organize everything so the other players can have chill experience, or nooone in the group really cares about succeeding and learning anything.

    Man, IDK what guilds you've been part of but in my 8 years and too many hours, I've yet to find a guild that doesn't try to run raids or have a group that will get together to poke a raid wing a week. This becomes even more-so when you factor in guilds that aim to do that content instead of just being yet another PvX guild with a 100% rep requirement. Funny that. Maybe if your guild that you're part of isn't trying to do the content you want to do, you should seek out a guild that does.

    Learning completely from zero may be fun for some types of players, but even for them is hardly chill. Raids are a content of such difficulty, that it's hard to be laidback unless you are either completely fine with getting absolutely nowhere, or have a group that is well overqualified for the content already.

    So, again, telling first-time would be raiders that they should "just organize a chill raid themselves" is not a good advice, and cannot rightly be considered as something offered in good faith.

    Nah, there's not a problem here. Remember when raids were first released and everyone had to learn from zero? Yeah, fun times where we were actually starting from zero. These days though, that's not the case. There are basically infinite guides out there to read up on or watch. Guides that give you advice on how to tank, what to kill, which things to focus on, what can be skipped, what must be done at this % of HP, and what skills to bring to mitigate other mechanics. There are even guides for builds that work well together. If you want a more hands-on approach, there are raid training discords that run raids basically every day for both EU and NA. If you can only play 2h a week, then bro, why you trying to get into raids? You literally won't get anywhere with 104 hours a year playtime.

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 7, 2021

    @Sir Alymer.3406 said:
    /g(1, 2, 3, 4, 5) "Hey friends, any of you want to run (Raid Instance Name Here) and try to kill (Raid Boss Name here)? LF all roles and this is a chill learning run!"

    or that in discord, just replace the "/g" with "@(role)".

    And then you end up with 9 other inexperienced dps roles, no healer, tank and support. Or you will have to make sure all required roles are covered, everyone knows what they need to do, and specific players take some specific roles if those are present in encounter (like mushrooms in Sloth). Just putting up a shout without a followup work to organize what comes after is nto likely to end up with any good result. Unless, of course, someone else will take over.

    Also, from my experience, if at least some of the players that would show up wouldn't be veteran raiders (preferably a majority of them), the run will end up either as chill, or as learning, but generally not both.

    "Chill learning run" done by a group of 10 new players is usually an equivalent of saying "we're completely chill with fact that we won't learn anything today". If you actually want to learn anything in such a group setup, it will be stressful, there's no avoiding that. Learning raid encounters when you're all new to the content is an extremely painful process. Sure, some players actually enjoy that, but that doesn't make it any less of a hard and highly demanding work.

    Man, IDK what guilds you've been part of but in my 8 years and too many hours, I've yet to find a guild that doesn't try to run raids or have a group that will get together to poke a raid wing a week.

    And how many of those attempts get anywhere without either help of some players that are already more experienced at raiding, and/or more serious approach to learning?

    This becomes even more-so when you factor in guilds that aim to do that content instead of just being yet another PvX guild with a 100% rep requirement. Funny that. Maybe if your guild that you're part of isn't trying to do the content you want to do, you should seek out a guild that does.

    Thanks, i have already done all the raiding i wanted. I am also speaking from the point of the person that often did the organizing of such groups. And, trust me, it never was chill for me.

    Learning completely from zero may be fun for some types of players, but even for them is hardly chill. Raids are a content of such difficulty, that it's hard to be laidback unless you are either completely fine with getting absolutely nowhere, or have a group that is well overqualified for the content already.

    So, again, telling first-time would be raiders that they should "just organize a chill raid themselves" is not a good advice, and cannot rightly be considered as something offered in good faith.

    Nah, there's not a problem here. Remember when raids were first released and everyone had to learn from zero? Yeah, fun times where we were actually starting from zero.

    Yes. And they were deadly serious about it.

    These days though, that's not the case. There are basically infinite guides out there to read up on or watch. Guides that give you advice on how to tank, what to kill, which things to focus on, what can be skipped, what must be done at this % of HP, and what skills to bring to mitigate other mechanics. There are even guides for builds that work well together. If you want a more hands-on approach, there are raid training discords that run raids basically every day for both EU and NA.

    I know all of this. This has nothing to do with what i was speaking about earlier, however.
    Also, sure, you are starting from a better position now than those that had to research strats themselves. Still, if you want to get anywhere in learning, you still need to be as deadly serious about it as those original first-wave raiders were. Laid-back, more casual approach to learning will not get you anywhere.

    If you can only play 2h a week, then bro, why you trying to get into raids? You literally won't get anywhere with 104 hours a year playtime.

    I know that. That's exactly why i think an "advice" to such players that they should just organize a chill training LFG themselves is not made in good faith. Because following that advice leads only to failure, and everyone here that know anything about raiding realize that, including the person that issued it.

    In reality, that "advice" was not meant to help anyone. It was nothing more than a way of saying "You and others like you just get your problems elsewhere". Said poster wasn't trying to be helpful - he just didn't want to hear anything about it.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • Fuchslein.8639Fuchslein.8639 Member ✭✭✭
    edited January 7, 2021

    Let's talk a little bit about "creating your own group".
    If you are completely new and open your own group with the things "Learning, New", ect. how many people come into this group who know what you have to do? So, really know what you have to do and can explain it? In such groups then usually even in team chat, without announcements with discord or TS.
    Because the least people really learn the bosses via Youtube. Sure, you can watch videos about it, but it's not even close to the same when you stand in front of the boss.

    As someone who has been actively raiding since HOT, I can say from personal experience that training raid guilds have brought me (ME) nothing. At least in which I was, were chaotic and you rarely got places in the groups where you could really learn something. Mostly you were as a newcomer in the ... new groups, where there was usually one person who knew everything and the rest has mostly only taken semi-seriously.
    And I doubt that most here like to raid for weeks, months in groups without any success.
    I personally have been through this where the DPS meter didn't exist yet and every group consisted almost only of Ele's and then the blame was shifted to me and a friend since we both played Rev's. Only to see at the end, when the first DPS meter appeared, ohh we Rev's have made the most DMG ...
    You only learn something up to a certain point before it just becomes frustrating and fun-stealing.
    I was lucky that my guild finally wanted to raid and I have thereby met a few people with whom I could really learn and with whom I ran weekly raids, very successfully.
    And I think that's what matters. You have to get to know the right people with whom you get along well. Otherwise, no matter how much you learn, raiding will never be fun.

    But to meet the right people you often need luck. I met them because experienced raiders joined our learning group and I caught their eye. BUT they didn't notice me because of my dmg (I was a healer at the time), but because of my TS apperance. Which is why the leader wrote to me after some time when they formed a new group to bring more people in their guild to raid. (and I will not lie, I think also because I was female and in the end then still often stood at the top of the DPS numbers)

    Of course this is only my case and of course you have to show a bit of effort. I think if you already have problems to craft ASC gear for raiding, you will also have problems if you have a good group because raiding requires that you learn. Not only Rotas. The rotas and dmg are the easiest part of raiding.
    But I personally think, today even more so. That it also needs a lot of luck and an open personality to be able to raid successfully.
    And of course the will to become better.

    This is just my opinion from my experience.
    Of course, everyone has different experiences and I just wanted to share mine. Since I think that the topic of Luck, is often gladly underestimated although it applies to many.

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Astralporing.1957 said:
    And then you end up with 9 other inexperienced dps roles, no healer, tank and support. Or you will have to make sure all required roles are covered, everyone knows what they need to do, and specific players take some specific roles if those are present in encounter (like mushrooms in Sloth)

    To be fair though, if those players looking to Raid took the time to play through the earlier instanced content available in the game, dungeons, strike missions and more importantly fractals, especially higher level ones, they shouldn't have a problem filling most of those roles. Even dungeons, which are much simpler, can teach you how to dps, at least if you want to succeed at them without trouble. Yes I know you can cheese dungeons by pulling mobs aside and reviving dead people, but that's no longer a chill run either, is it? If you manage a chill, no wipe, no hassle, dungeon/fractal/strike mission run, then it will be much more possible to do the same in Raids.

    But most often than not, and I experienced it a lot personally in Raids, there are players who want to Raid, yet have never run a single dungeon, or done a single fractal (not even T1 level) yet demand Raids to be nerfed, become easier and the like, or ask for ways to have "chill runs". This I think is the most important negative part of Raids in this game, how accessible they are. Accessible in terms of "I walk to a portal and can enter the Raid in green gear as a fresh level 80", not difficulty wise.

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:
    And then you end up with 9 other inexperienced dps roles, no healer, tank and support. Or you will have to make sure all required roles are covered, everyone knows what they need to do, and specific players take some specific roles if those are present in encounter (like mushrooms in Sloth)

    To be fair though, if those players looking to Raid took the time to play through the earlier instanced content available in the game, dungeons, strike missions and more importantly fractals, especially higher level ones, they shouldn't have a problem filling most of those roles.

    Oh, i don't know. Dungeons were perfectly fine with 5xdps, and i suppose most people running them now are still doing it that way. Even most of the t4 fractals are designs that were made before healer/support use became assumed in a group. So, no, even many people that have done the earlier instanced content would not be prepared for running all the different roles raids require now. Honestly, even many raiders don't run all the roles. So, if you just ask for 9 people, you are most likely to end up with 9 of people that have the most common role - dps. Unless someone puts an effort to ensure all the roles are covered, that is. Am i wrong here?

    Even most people doing the strike missions are likely to have only some dps builds. And those that do have multiple builds with different roles are probably raiding already.

    Even dungeons, which are much simpler, can teach you how to dps, at least if you want to succeed at them without trouble.

    The dps standarts of dungeons are much, much lower, though. A group doing only as much as consistent 6-8k dps will breeze through all dungeons with no problem whatsoever. Well, with no dps-based problems anyway.

    But most often than not, and I experienced it a lot personally in Raids, there are players who want to Raid, yet have never run a single dungeon, or done a single fractal (not even T1 level) yet demand Raids to be nerfed, become easier and the like, or ask for ways to have "chill runs". This I think is the most important negative part of Raids in this game, how accessible they are. Accessible in terms of "I walk to a portal and can enter the Raid in green gear as a fresh level 80", not difficulty wise.

    Some people indeed do that. I don't think though that the existence of those people detracts anything from arguments of those that have been doing all the inermediate content, or even those that have actually been raiding.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:
    And then you end up with 9 other inexperienced dps roles, no healer, tank and support. Or you will have to make sure all required roles are covered, everyone knows what they need to do, and specific players take some specific roles if those are present in encounter (like mushrooms in Sloth)

    To be fair though, if those players looking to Raid took the time to play through the earlier instanced content available in the game, dungeons, strike missions and more importantly fractals, especially higher level ones, they shouldn't have a problem filling most of those roles.

    Oh, i don't know. Dungeons were perfectly fine with 5xdps, and i suppose most people running them now are still doing it that way. Even most of the t4 fractals are designs that were made before healer/support use became assumed in a group. So, no, even many people that have done the earlier instanced content would not be prepared for running all the different roles raids require now. Honestly, even many raiders don't run all the roles. So, if you just ask for 9 people, you are most likely to end up with 9 of people that have the most common role - dps. Unless someone puts an effort to ensure all the roles are covered, that is. Am i wrong here?

    Even most people doing the strike missions are likely to have only some dps builds. And those that do have multiple builds with different roles are probably raiding already.

    Even dungeons, which are much simpler, can teach you how to dps, at least if you want to succeed at them without trouble.

    The dps standarts of dungeons are much, much lower, though. A group doing only as much as consistent 6-8k dps will breeze through all dungeons with no problem whatsoever. Well, with no dps-based problems anyway.

    Your post included "9 other inexperienced dps roles", which is what dungeons can teach, the rest of the roles aren't really needed in dungeons, that's where higher strike missions and high tier fractals come in. Consistent 6-8k dps is fine for most Raids too, especially true for the starter ones like Vale Guardian. If you ask for 9 people in a guild that doesn't run either of the above, you are unlikely to get the different roles covered. If you ask for 9 people in a guild that already runs T4 fractals and strikes like Boneskinner and Whisper of Jormag you are more than likely to get the tank and healer roles you require, otherwise the same guild wouldn't succeed in those either. Plus to go back to Vale Guardian, once you beat the 3 adds before the boss you should be set in terms of build diversity and roles required.

    Some people indeed do that. I don't think though that the existence of those people detracts anything from arguments of those that have been doing all the inermediate content, or even those that have actually been raiding.

    Those that have been doing the intermediate content and have actually been raiding shouldn't have trouble getting 9 people together to continue running raids. Provided of course they've been doing the intermediate content and the raiding with the same guild. If they didn't, then it's up to them to pick up the pieces and become the "leader" to lead the rest of the guild through Raids.

  • Mungo Zen.9364Mungo Zen.9364 Member ✭✭✭

    @Astralporing.1957 said:
    "Chill learning run" done by a group of 10 new players is usually an equivalent of saying "we're completely chill with fact that we won't learn anything today". If you actually want to learn anything in such a group setup, it will be stressful, there's no avoiding that. Learning raid encounters when you're all new to the content is an extremely painful process. Sure, some players actually enjoy that, but that doesn't make it any less of a hard and highly demanding work.

    I am also speaking from the point of the person that often did the organizing of such groups. And, trust me, it never was chill for me.

    Learning (or leading) doesn't have to be stressful. If you decide to allow it to be stressful, then that is on you.

    Having been a raid lead/team lead and recruiter for clans and guilds in FPS and MMO I have thousands of hours in Group Content in many, many games. The number one thing my groups always strived for was group cohesion through excellent communication and expectation setting. We would actively groom players joining our groups with the expectations we had; "We might not be successful, you might not get loot (or even in the raid) but we are going to try and set ourselves up for the best possible results and appreciate your help in being part of this teams success."

    So using your example above, I would suggest if the person leading such a group knows that the bar for success is learning the encounter and sets that same expectation with the group then it can absolutely be chill, and downright fun too!

  • Sobx.1758Sobx.1758 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 7, 2021

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    If you can only play 2h a week, then bro, why you trying to get into raids? You literally won't get anywhere with 104 hours a year playtime.

    I know that. That's exactly why i think an "advice" to such players that they should just organize a chill training LFG themselves is not made in good faith. Because following that advice leads only to failure, and everyone here that know anything about raiding realize that, including the person that issued it.

    In reality, that "advice" was not meant to help anyone. It was nothing more than a way of saying "You and others like you just get your problems elsewhere". Said poster wasn't trying to be helpful - he just didn't want to hear anything about it.

    It's hilarious that you try to discredit what I said by saying my advice "wasn't meant to help anyone" and it was "noithing more than a way of saying get your problems elsewhere", when in reality, what I did was simply describe the way that literally got me into raiding from way behind other players. I'm basing what I said on my personal experience. It's not some subjective hypothetical "what if" (as opposed to what you're answering with in this thread), it's a fact whether you like it or not, because -again- it's something that I personally did and worked without any "outside help" (like guilds that you claim are absolutely necessery -you're objectively wrong. They're useful, but by no means a deal breaker).
    Your weirdly disconnected claims I "didn't write it in good faith" mainly because you don't understand the difference between "chill no-req squads"/"getting help to get into raiding" (which OP thinks is impossible) and "veterans completing encounters on autopilot" is... at best an interesting take on the matter that -intentionally or not- disregards the very point of this thread.

  • Tiilimon.6094Tiilimon.6094 Member ✭✭✭

    I would also follow your advice, as that's exactly what I did when I wanted to check raids out.

    Just got a chill LFG going and it went really well :)

    The only thing blocking people from getting into raiding is in their own mind, same as with most things in life that require effort.
    Just work on what you wish to achieve and remember that it's not a race.

  • Sir Alymer.3406Sir Alymer.3406 Member ✭✭✭

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @Sir Alymer.3406 said:
    /g(1, 2, 3, 4, 5) "Hey friends, any of you want to run (Raid Instance Name Here) and try to kill (Raid Boss Name here)? LF all roles and this is a chill learning run!"

    or that in discord, just replace the "/g" with "@(role)".

    And then you end up with 9 other inexperienced dps roles, no healer, tank and support. Or you will have to make sure all required roles are covered, everyone knows what they need to do, and specific players take some specific roles if those are present in encounter (like mushrooms in Sloth). Just putting up a shout without a followup work to organize what comes after is nto likely to end up with any good result. Unless, of course, someone else will take over.

    Uh, what? Did you purposefully exclude the "LF all roles" part? Do I need to make it more specific for you to understand because I can? Raids are endgame content that expect you to have at least some knowledge of your class and what they can do. It's the same with t4 fractals. Any guild and anyone that does both of these should know what they need to do. Knowledge like that should be assumed but if it's not, you can make an easy adjustment to the message I put up there to designate certain roles you're after. If you're only getting people in DPS roles, stop inviting them. You've control over your own squad. You don't post that message and then have 60,000,000 DPS trying to join at once either. You can filter out who gets to join especially if you've enough coverage of boons.

    Also, from my experience, if at least some of the players that would show up wouldn't be veteran raiders (preferably a majority of them), the run will end up either as chill, or as learning, but generally not both.

    That's nice that you've had that experience, but it sounds like you're focusing more on the negative. My experience is, it's chill almost all the time even with an inexperienced raider. My static gives raiders a chance, but if they consistently fail mechanics or pull under a certain DPS threshold (They just have to do more than the tank and healers combined) then they're politely removed. There's only been one instance where someone got extra salty after dying. And this is after 20gb worth of raid and fractal logs.

    "Chill learning run" done by a group of 10 new players is usually an equivalent of saying "we're completely chill with fact that we won't learn anything today". If you actually want to learn anything in such a group setup, it will be stressful, there's no avoiding that. Learning raid encounters when you're all new to the content is an extremely painful process. Sure, some players actually enjoy that, but that doesn't make it any less of a hard and highly demanding work.

    Ah, ignoring the fact that there are the following things for raids these days: Boss guides both written and video, class guides for builds and rotations, training discords, etc. How do you think the original raiders who went in day one without any of those guides learned? They observed.

    "Oh not standing in the greens on VG causes big damage to party."

    "Failing to kill the spirits walking towards gorseval at 66% causes a party wipe."

    "Ignoring big bombs and cannons on Sabetha causes the platform to die and wipes the squad."
    "We have to be aware of the person who eats the mushrooms on Slothosaur to not kill them" Etc.

    It's quite intuitive to figure these things out by using your eye-holes and making that brain work. Raids aren't the mindless open wold content where you CTRL+RMB your auto attack and go afk. VG teaches its mechanics slowly with the three elites beforehand. Gorseval goes invulnerable at 66% and 33% forcing focus on the four mobs that spawn. Cannons not only do platform damage but make it difficult to stand anywhere on the platform.

    Man, IDK what guilds you've been part of but in my 8 years and too many hours, I've yet to find a guild that doesn't try to run raids or have a group that will get together to poke a raid wing a week.

    And how many of those attempts get anywhere without either help of some players that are already more experienced at raiding, and/or more serious approach to learning?

    I couldn't tell you, but probably many, many more than have been actually successful. My static didn't really know anything when we took up raiding when it came out and when they came back two years after to try everything again. We went from maybe one wing a week all the way up to clearing wings 1-4, 5 up to dhuum, 6, and 7 regularly. Player skill shouldn't be static, and I can attest to this as I've witnessed players go from being actually quite garbage and dying to simple things in the boss fights to pulling 20k DPS regularly in a practical fight, hitting near snowcrow's DPS benchmark numbers on the golem, or even tanking bosses well. This is also just in my static. You don't get worse with practice over time, and raids are static. Raids don't change. The mechanics are always the same, however, it's the strategies used to deal with the mechanics that change as players get more skilled.

    This becomes even more-so when you factor in guilds that aim to do that content instead of just being yet another PvX guild with a 100% rep requirement. Funny that. Maybe if your guild that you're part of isn't trying to do the content you want to do, you should seek out a guild that does.

    Thanks, i have already done all the raiding i wanted. I am also speaking from the point of the person that often did the organizing of such groups. And, trust me, it never was chill for me.

    That sounds more like a you problem, if I'm honest. I've never had problems organizing chill runs with or without my guild unless it was a really awkward time (like 4AM CST. The game's practically dead on NA at that time)

    Learning completely from zero may be fun for some types of players, but even for them is hardly chill. Raids are a content of such difficulty, that it's hard to be laidback unless you are either completely fine with getting absolutely nowhere, or have a group that is well overqualified for the content already.

    So, again, telling first-time would be raiders that they should "just organize a chill raid themselves" is not a good advice, and cannot rightly be considered as something offered in good faith.

    Nah, there's not a problem here. Remember when raids were first released and everyone had to learn from zero? Yeah, fun times where we were actually starting from zero.

    Yes. And they were deadly serious about it.

    No they weren't. They used their brains to discern patterns and recognize mechanics. The more I read of what you say in your posts, you seem to imply that new players to raids won't even bother thinking which is quite insulting to them.

    These days though, that's not the case. There are basically infinite guides out there to read up on or watch. Guides that give you advice on how to tank, what to kill, which things to focus on, what can be skipped, what must be done at this % of HP, and what skills to bring to mitigate other mechanics. There are even guides for builds that work well together. If you want a more hands-on approach, there are raid training discords that run raids basically every day for both EU and NA.

    I know all of this. This has nothing to do with what i was speaking about earlier, however.
    Also, sure, you are starting from a better position now than those that had to research strats themselves. Still, if you want to get anywhere in learning, you still need to be as deadly serious about it as those original first-wave raiders were. Laid-back, more casual approach to learning will not get you anywhere.

    I don't understand how you have to be deadly serious. You literally only have to pay attention to the boss and its arena. And it has everything to do with what you were talking about earlier. You're claiming raiders these days start from zero, when, in fact, they do not. All we had back when raids first came out were the original dungeon builds and some theorycrafting on new builds using the new sets and runes (Viper's, trialblaizer's, Minstrel's, etc.). It took about a year for everything to get settled and the original 2 druid, 2 chrono, 4 dps, 2 warrior groups to start.

    If you can only play 2h a week, then bro, why you trying to get into raids? You literally won't get anywhere with 104 hours a year playtime.

    I know that. That's exactly why i think an "advice" to such players that they should just organize a chill training LFG themselves is not made in good faith. Because following that advice leads only to failure, and everyone here that know anything about raiding realize that, including the person that issued it.

    In reality, that "advice" was not meant to help anyone. It was nothing more than a way of saying "You and others like you just get your problems elsewhere". Said poster wasn't trying to be helpful - he just didn't want to hear anything about it.

    Well no, raids require a time investment. It's the same as T4 fractals or getting into CMs+T4 fractals. You don't just make an account, get to 80, and then have all the technical skill and gear to just go through both. It's like joining a custom PvP match when you're brand new to the game and getting stomped by people who've put more than 100 hours into the game. Again, if you have such limited time, raids and fractals aren't going to be something you can just do on a whim. I don't think there's an MMO that this isn't true for as all instanced content done with a party requires a decent time investment to even do the normal routes with gear (Either score, sets, or otherwise) and the willingness to fail on mechanics until you understand them. This becomes especially true when done with randoms instead of people you know as the random people could be great or the worst players ever in gear they've just been picking up.

  • The Fear.3865The Fear.3865 Member ✭✭✭

    @Astralporing.1957 said:
    "Chill learning run" done by a group of 10 new players is usually an equivalent of saying "we're completely chill with fact that we won't learn anything today". If you actually want to learn anything in such a group setup, it will be stressful, there's no avoiding that. Learning raid encounters when you're all new to the content is an extremely painful process. Sure, some players actually enjoy that, but that doesn't make it any less of a hard and highly demanding work.

    I am also speaking from the point of the person that often did the organizing of such groups. And, trust me, it never was chill for me.

    Oboi... Trust me you can learn something and enjoy it... So sad to read something like that.

  • @The Fear.3865 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:
    "Chill learning run" done by a group of 10 new players is usually an equivalent of saying "we're completely chill with fact that we won't learn anything today". If you actually want to learn anything in such a group setup, it will be stressful, there's no avoiding that. Learning raid encounters when you're all new to the content is an extremely painful process. Sure, some players actually enjoy that, but that doesn't make it any less of a hard and highly demanding work.

    I am also speaking from the point of the person that often did the organizing of such groups. And, trust me, it never was chill for me.

    Oboi... Trust me you can learn something and enjoy it... So sad to read something like that.

    That's literally what he/she says:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:
    Sure, some players actually enjoy that

    Furthermore, it must be me but to my knowledge the concept of 'chill' IS NOT the same as enjoyment. I mean, I don't even see that much correlation, really. Chill means (imo): take it easy, take it slow (much like the condition :) ). Whereas enjoying something is incredibly subjective, right???

  • sokeenoppa.5384sokeenoppa.5384 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Agrippa Oculus.3726 said:

    @The Fear.3865 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:
    "Chill learning run" done by a group of 10 new players is usually an equivalent of saying "we're completely chill with fact that we won't learn anything today". If you actually want to learn anything in such a group setup, it will be stressful, there's no avoiding that. Learning raid encounters when you're all new to the content is an extremely painful process. Sure, some players actually enjoy that, but that doesn't make it any less of a hard and highly demanding work.

    I am also speaking from the point of the person that often did the organizing of such groups. And, trust me, it never was chill for me.

    Oboi... Trust me you can learn something and enjoy it... So sad to read something like that.

    That's literally what he/she says:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:
    Sure, some players actually enjoy that

    Furthermore, it must be me but to my knowledge the concept of 'chill' IS NOT the same as enjoyment. I mean, I don't even see that much correlation, really. Chill means (imo): take it easy, take it slow (much like the condition :) ). Whereas enjoying something is incredibly subjective, right???

    Yeah i can get behind this.
    You can take the learning in chill way, practise the boss step by step, having discussions between tries about the strats that might or might not work, adjust the composition if somethings is lacking like healing or boons and what not. Training something doesn't have to be awful.

    OR you can all watch one video about the fight, expect every1 to know their s*it, get owned by boss and tilt.

    I'll have two number 9s, a number 9 large, a number 6 with extra dip, a number 7, two number 45s, one with cheese, and a large soda.

  • Sigmoid.7082Sigmoid.7082 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Agrippa Oculus.3726 said:

    @The Fear.3865 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:
    "Chill learning run" done by a group of 10 new players is usually an equivalent of saying "we're completely chill with fact that we won't learn anything today". If you actually want to learn anything in such a group setup, it will be stressful, there's no avoiding that. Learning raid encounters when you're all new to the content is an extremely painful process. Sure, some players actually enjoy that, but that doesn't make it any less of a hard and highly demanding work.

    I am also speaking from the point of the person that often did the organizing of such groups. And, trust me, it never was chill for me.

    Oboi... Trust me you can learn something and enjoy it... So sad to read something like that.

    That's literally what he/she says:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:
    Sure, some players actually enjoy that

    Furthermore, it must be me but to my knowledge the concept of 'chill' IS NOT the same as enjoyment. I mean, I don't even see that much correlation, really. Chill means (imo): take it easy, take it slow (much like the condition :) ). Whereas enjoying something is incredibly subjective, right???

    If I have learnt anything from this thread "chill" is just as subjective as "enjoy"

  • Armen.1483Armen.1483 Member ✭✭✭

    I still don't get it. What is the difficulty in making a desired squad and managing it ? You can totally make an lfg post like: "W1 | VG| chill run| dps, druid, offhealer, tank, quickness, alac" and if somebody starts flaming, kindly warn him not to do annd if repeated give them a deserved kick. All problems solved. Making your own squad is the solution to all problems.
    Before someone says it: if you are not confident enough you can place markers, just appoint a leutenant that knows what to do. Just learn the positioning and stand in right places and know how to manage a squad, that is easy as hell, nothing else is expected from a squad leader.

  • Linken.6345Linken.6345 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Armen.1483 said:
    I still don't get it. What is the difficulty in making a desired squad and managing it ? You can totally make an lfg post like: "W1 | VG| chill run| dps, druid, offhealer, tank, quickness, alac" and if somebody starts flaming, kindly warn him not to do annd if repeated give them a deserved kick. All problems solved. Making your own squad is the solution to all problems.
    Before someone says it: if you are not confident enough you can place markers, just appoint a leutenant that knows what to do. Just learn the positioning and stand in right places and know how to manage a squad, that is easy as hell, nothing else is expected from a squad leader.

    Well some people seem to think it stops getting chill if they have to type all that stuff in to the lfg message, then actually be in charge so they get the right people.