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KP problem solution

Why not T4 to give kp and cm just to give more kp?

Comments

  • Fangoth.4503Fangoth.4503 Member ✭✭✭

    @Svetli.4276 said:
    Why not T4 to give kp and cm just to give more kp?

    it would be replaced by an increased amount of player in people block list as it would be used as new filter

  • Veprovina.4876Veprovina.4876 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Asking for raid KP in fractals is like asking PvP rank for joining WvW groups.
    They're simmilar content but neither got anything to do with the other.
    This shouldn't be encouraged by anet.
    Hard no.

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 9, 2020

    @Veprovina.4876 said:
    Asking for raid KP in fractals is like asking PvP rank for joining WvW groups.
    They're simmilar content but neither got anything to do with the other.
    This shouldn't be encouraged by anet.
    Hard no.

    No one is asking for raid KP in fractals...

    The KP in question are:
    Unstable Cosmic Essence (https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Unstable_Cosmic_Essence) unavailable now
    Unstable Fractal Essence (https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Unstable_Fractal_Essence) which is a wallet currency and as such requires sites like killproof.me/

    both of which are acquired via fractal CMs.

  • Veprovina.4876Veprovina.4876 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Veprovina.4876 said:
    Asking for raid KP in fractals is like asking PvP rank for joining WvW groups.
    They're simmilar content but neither got anything to do with the other.
    This shouldn't be encouraged by anet.
    Hard no.

    No one is asking for raid KP in fractals...

    The KP in question are:
    Unstable Cosmic Essence (https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Unstable_Cosmic_Essence) unavailable now
    Unstable Fractal Essence (https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Unstable_Fractal_Essence) which is a wallet currency and as such requires sites like killproof.me/

    both of which are acquired via fractal CMs.

    You mean, "no longer" is anyone asking for KP/LI in fractals? :tongue:
    Because that was a think since raids were introduced.
    In any case, what i said stands, i'm against adding any killproof in fractals, it would make everything worse.

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 9, 2020

    @Veprovina.4876 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Veprovina.4876 said:
    Asking for raid KP in fractals is like asking PvP rank for joining WvW groups.
    They're simmilar content but neither got anything to do with the other.
    This shouldn't be encouraged by anet.
    Hard no.

    No one is asking for raid KP in fractals...

    The KP in question are:
    Unstable Cosmic Essence (https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Unstable_Cosmic_Essence) unavailable now
    Unstable Fractal Essence (https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Unstable_Fractal_Essence) which is a wallet currency and as such requires sites like killproof.me/

    both of which are acquired via fractal CMs.

    You mean, "no longer" is anyone asking for KP/LI in fractals? :tongue:
    Because that was a think since raids were introduced.
    In any case, what i said stands, i'm against adding any killproof in fractals, it would make everything worse.

    What do you mean you are against?

    KP have been used in fractals for years by now in regard to CMs.

    EDIT:
    AH I understand, you fear that adding KP to base fractals would create a situation where people start asking for KP for normal T4. True, that would be a possibility. Good point.

  • Veprovina.4876Veprovina.4876 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Veprovina.4876 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Veprovina.4876 said:
    Asking for raid KP in fractals is like asking PvP rank for joining WvW groups.
    They're simmilar content but neither got anything to do with the other.
    This shouldn't be encouraged by anet.
    Hard no.

    No one is asking for raid KP in fractals...

    The KP in question are:
    Unstable Cosmic Essence (https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Unstable_Cosmic_Essence) unavailable now
    Unstable Fractal Essence (https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Unstable_Fractal_Essence) which is a wallet currency and as such requires sites like killproof.me/

    both of which are acquired via fractal CMs.

    You mean, "no longer" is anyone asking for KP/LI in fractals? :tongue:
    Because that was a think since raids were introduced.
    In any case, what i said stands, i'm against adding any killproof in fractals, it would make everything worse.

    What do you mean you are against?

    KP have been used in fractals for years by now in regard to CMs.

    EDIT:
    AH I understand, you fear that adding KP to base fractals would create a situation where people start asking for KP for normal T4. True, that would be a possibility. Good point.

    Yes exactly. :smile:
    In general, adding any kind of kill proof for something creates disatvantages for people running it for the first time as they don't have it. But to get it, you need to have it in the first place. Then special "training" scenarios need to happen in the community an it becomes a mess when someone starts asking for it in a game mode that's not designed for it like raiders were asking for KP/LI in fractals.
    It's kind of like that one saying, i need experience to get a job, but to get experience i need a job...

    Best keep all content open to everyone, and let people sort who they want to party with among themselves, and not using game items.

  • Ayrilana.1396Ayrilana.1396 Member ✭✭✭✭

    All content is open to everyone already and that would not change with additional KP usage. The game does not lock you out of content for not have an arbitrary number of KP. If you don’t meet the requirements that players set for their own group then you’re more than welcome to create your own. Removing KP will do nothing but make the situation worse.

  • It is not the game that fracture the players, it is the players who split themselves
    the reason is simple, ppl do not want to be stuck for hours on a fractal, it is time waist, BUT HERE IS WERE I SAY i am good player, if you just tell me how cm 100 works ( i have done the other ones) i will be ok : ) YET i cannot prove that !

    this cursed circle is the problem, it is ruining the chase for new players to star fractals, it took my chase to get more old kp (i am stuck on 9 now) it is adding new kp

    you understand that this must stop !
    the normal way is new players to start on LOW fractal level, and reaching level 100 they are veteran players. Is this not enuf ? why do veteran level 100 payers must split even more and more and more.

  • Fangoth.4503Fangoth.4503 Member ✭✭✭

    @Veprovina.4876 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Veprovina.4876 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Veprovina.4876 said:
    Asking for raid KP in fractals is like asking PvP rank for joining WvW groups.
    They're simmilar content but neither got anything to do with the other.
    This shouldn't be encouraged by anet.
    Hard no.

    No one is asking for raid KP in fractals...

    The KP in question are:
    Unstable Cosmic Essence (https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Unstable_Cosmic_Essence) unavailable now
    Unstable Fractal Essence (https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Unstable_Fractal_Essence) which is a wallet currency and as such requires sites like killproof.me/

    both of which are acquired via fractal CMs.

    You mean, "no longer" is anyone asking for KP/LI in fractals? :tongue:
    Because that was a think since raids were introduced.
    In any case, what i said stands, i'm against adding any killproof in fractals, it would make everything worse.

    What do you mean you are against?

    KP have been used in fractals for years by now in regard to CMs.

    EDIT:
    AH I understand, you fear that adding KP to base fractals would create a situation where people start asking for KP for normal T4. True, that would be a possibility. Good point.

    Yes exactly. :smile:
    In general, adding any kind of kill proof for something creates disatvantages for people running it for the first time as they don't have it. But to get it, you need to have it in the first place. Then special "training" scenarios need to happen in the community an it becomes a mess when someone starts asking for it in a game mode that's not designed for it like raiders were asking for KP/LI in fractals.
    It's kind of like that one saying, i need experience to get a job, but to get experience i need a job...

    Best keep all content open to everyone, and let people sort who they want to party with among themselves, and not using game items.

    i disagree i had no problem starting rain and was learning fractal steadily until they removed kp and now its a clown fiesta, noway to get a group at your level, it's either having a group that discover everything or being hard carried and in both case its not enjoyable so i stopped learning fractal

  • @Svetli.4276 said:
    It is not the game that fracture the players, it is the players who split themselves
    the reason is simple, ppl do not want to be stuck for hours on a fractal, it is time waist, BUT HERE IS WERE I SAY i am good player, if you just tell me how cm 100 works ( i have done the other ones) i will be ok : ) YET i cannot prove that !

    this cursed circle is the problem, it is ruining the chase for new players to star fractals, it took my chase to get more old kp (i am stuck on 9 now) it is adding new kp

    you understand that this must stop !
    the normal way is new players to start on LOW fractal level, and reaching level 100 they are veteran players. Is this not enuf ? why do veteran level 100 payers must split even more and more and more.

    You answered yourself in your own post :

    ppl do not want to be stuck for hours on a fractal

    Maybe you're a good player, maybe not (9 old kp is really low) : we can't know as a lot of players think they're good but in fact not really.

    If you never have done the 100cm you need to do some training before wanting to join exp parties.

    Carcharoth Lucian/Mini Chibii
    Ruin of Surmia world
    PvE : [CdL] Les Chasseurs De Légendes
    WvW : [MIMs] Mobile Ingénieuse Et Marteau

  • There is no problem with KP in raids or fractals. There is problem with people not willing to put minimal effort into completing said content. Seeing problems everywhere but in themselves.

  • Veprovina.4876Veprovina.4876 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Fangoth.4503 said:

    @Veprovina.4876 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Veprovina.4876 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Veprovina.4876 said:
    Asking for raid KP in fractals is like asking PvP rank for joining WvW groups.
    They're simmilar content but neither got anything to do with the other.
    This shouldn't be encouraged by anet.
    Hard no.

    No one is asking for raid KP in fractals...

    The KP in question are:
    Unstable Cosmic Essence (https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Unstable_Cosmic_Essence) unavailable now
    Unstable Fractal Essence (https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Unstable_Fractal_Essence) which is a wallet currency and as such requires sites like killproof.me/

    both of which are acquired via fractal CMs.

    You mean, "no longer" is anyone asking for KP/LI in fractals? :tongue:
    Because that was a think since raids were introduced.
    In any case, what i said stands, i'm against adding any killproof in fractals, it would make everything worse.

    What do you mean you are against?

    KP have been used in fractals for years by now in regard to CMs.

    EDIT:
    AH I understand, you fear that adding KP to base fractals would create a situation where people start asking for KP for normal T4. True, that would be a possibility. Good point.

    Yes exactly. :smile:
    In general, adding any kind of kill proof for something creates disatvantages for people running it for the first time as they don't have it. But to get it, you need to have it in the first place. Then special "training" scenarios need to happen in the community an it becomes a mess when someone starts asking for it in a game mode that's not designed for it like raiders were asking for KP/LI in fractals.
    It's kind of like that one saying, i need experience to get a job, but to get experience i need a job...

    Best keep all content open to everyone, and let people sort who they want to party with among themselves, and not using game items.

    i disagree i had no problem starting rain and was learning fractal steadily until they removed kp and now its a clown fiesta, noway to get a group at your level, it's either having a group that discover everything or being hard carried and in both case its not enjoyable so i stopped learning fractal

    The problem with that argument is that, you're expecting "static party" experience from LFG. That's not a game problem, that's "your mindset" problem. And i'm not singling you out or telling you it's bad or whatever, i understand why people do it. But LFG is not a replacement for a guild group specialized in fractals. You can join what, 6 guilds in this game? Join one that does fractals and run a group with them. Asking for KP in LFG that's designed for random people to join just doesn't make sense. I understand people want to run with groups that are on their level, trained and not new, but that's what guilds are for, not LFG.

  • Fangoth.4503Fangoth.4503 Member ✭✭✭
    edited December 12, 2020

    @Veprovina.4876 said:

    @Fangoth.4503 said:
    i disagree i had no problem starting rain and was learning fractal steadily until they removed kp and now its a clown fiesta, noway to get a group at your level, it's either having a group that discover everything or being hard carried and in both case its not enjoyable so i stopped learning fractal

    The problem with that argument is that, you're expecting "static party" experience from LFG. That's not a game problem, that's "your mindset" problem. And i'm not singling you out or telling you it's bad or whatever, i understand why people do it. But LFG is not a replacement for a guild group specialized in fractals. You can join what, 6 guilds in this game? Join one that does fractals and run a group with them. Asking for KP in LFG that's designed for random people to join just doesn't make sense. I understand people want to run with groups that are on their level, trained and not new, but that's what guilds are for, not LFG.

    once again i disagree. i want to play with player roughly my level whithout having to bother login in everyday at the same time. and it totally has its place in lfg, you have to be delusionnal if you think that mixing 5 or 10 randoms person will give a good outcome in a semi-difficult content. Just go have a look at public boneskinner there you can see how well it works ;)
    additionnally guilds are based on being frend together with often lead to some player putting not much effert and being carried and is not removed from the team because he is your virtual friend so guild is a big nono for me as either training or perfectionnement, community is fine for training whether its raid/fractal as there is not that much friendship factor to it.
    You disliking KP is fine, just create you own group or join a group without kp and deal with the consequences of your ideas. But stopping a system that work fine for the majority to satisfy you idea isn't a good way, even worse it just kitten up every new player that desire to start CM, well done!
    To compare, if you want skydive without parachute its fine, go for it, its your own choice but don't impose it to others...

  • Veprovina.4876Veprovina.4876 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Fangoth.4503 said:

    @Veprovina.4876 said:

    @Fangoth.4503 said:
    i disagree i had no problem starting rain and was learning fractal steadily until they removed kp and now its a clown fiesta, noway to get a group at your level, it's either having a group that discover everything or being hard carried and in both case its not enjoyable so i stopped learning fractal

    The problem with that argument is that, you're expecting "static party" experience from LFG. That's not a game problem, that's "your mindset" problem. And i'm not singling you out or telling you it's bad or whatever, i understand why people do it. But LFG is not a replacement for a guild group specialized in fractals. You can join what, 6 guilds in this game? Join one that does fractals and run a group with them. Asking for KP in LFG that's designed for random people to join just doesn't make sense. I understand people want to run with groups that are on their level, trained and not new, but that's what guilds are for, not LFG.

    once again i disagree. i want to play with player roughly my level whithout having to bother login in everyday at the same time. and it totally has its place in lfg, you have to be delusionnal if you think that mixing 5 or 10 randoms person will give a good outcome in a semi-difficult content. Just go have a look at public boneskinner there you can see how well it works ;)
    additionnally guilds are based on being frend together with often lead to some player putting not much effert and being carried and is not removed from the team because he is your virtual friend so guild is a big nono for me as either training or perfectionnement, community is fine for training whether its raid/fractal as there is not that much friendship factor to it.
    You disliking KP is fine, just create you own group or join a group without kp and deal with the consequences of your ideas. But stopping a system that work fine for the majority to satisfy you idea isn't a good way, even worse it just kitten up every new player that desire to start CM, well done!
    To compare, if you want skydive without parachute its fine, go for it, its your own choice but don't impose it to others...

    I get where you're coming from and like i said - i know why people do it and i know it works.
    But for this not to seem like a giant middle finger to people who are using LFG, Anet needs to do this internally as a mechanic. Such as - You get "passive points" for killing a boss, and you can set your party in LFG to only allow people with "X" points. The difference between the current system and this one? Well, it's basically the same but here Anet takes the responsibility for gating content instead of players themselves - making the whole community seem less "toxic" (quotation marks emhpasized), to people who don't like not being allowed into the party. This is why Raiders are viewed as elitists and why KP/LI thing gets so much hate on the forums by peope who can't get a party. And while they're at it - make an additional use out of that mentor badge you spent your hard earned Tyria points to get to make a special training LFG for people to get extra rewards - to balance out the gated content via the internal KP like points by incentivizing experienced people to train PUGs. That way, PUGs get their first kill and can start joining KP parties, and KP people get to play with someone who knows the mechanic. Simple solution.

  • Fangoth.4503Fangoth.4503 Member ✭✭✭
    edited December 13, 2020

    @Veprovina.4876 said:

    @Fangoth.4503 said:
    once again i disagree. i want to play with player roughly my level whithout having to bother login in everyday at the same time. and it totally has its place in lfg, you have to be delusionnal if you think that mixing 5 or 10 randoms person will give a good outcome in a semi-difficult content. Just go have a look at public boneskinner there you can see how well it works ;)
    additionnally guilds are based on being frend together with often lead to some player putting not much effert and being carried and is not removed from the team because he is your virtual friend so guild is a big nono for me as either training or perfectionnement, community is fine for training whether its raid/fractal as there is not that much friendship factor to it.
    You disliking KP is fine, just create you own group or join a group without kp and deal with the consequences of your ideas. But stopping a system that work fine for the majority to satisfy you idea isn't a good way, even worse it just kitten up every new player that desire to start CM, well done!
    To compare, if you want skydive without parachute its fine, go for it, its your own choice but don't impose it to others...

    I get where you're coming from and like i said - i know why people do it and i know it works.
    But for this not to seem like a giant middle finger to people who are using LFG, Anet needs to do this internally as a mechanic. Such as - You get "passive points" for killing a boss, and you can set your party in LFG to only allow people with "X" points. The difference between the current system and this one? Well, it's basically the same but here Anet takes the responsibility for gating content instead of players themselves - making the whole community seem less "toxic" (quotation marks emhpasized), to people who don't like not being allowed into the party. This is why Raiders are viewed as elitists and why KP/LI thing gets so much hate on the forums by peope who can't get a party. And while they're at it - make an additional use out of that mentor badge you spent your hard earned Tyria points to get to make a special training LFG for people to get extra rewards - to balance out the gated content via the internal KP like points by incentivizing experienced people to train PUGs. That way, PUGs get their first kill and can start joining KP parties, and KP people get to play with someone who knows the mechanic. Simple solution.

    Are you working for Anet? so far it seems that both them and you are thinking killing the boss once make you a good enough player. it would be the true ** if** we were on a fast release scheme and where the new thing makes the old one irrelevant because players would kill a couple of time the boss and move to the next one. But we are in GW2 so there in no gear improvement and new content with a slight difficulty is so slow to come out that players focuses on improving their skills making player with big skill differences whether you killed the boss 1, 5, 10, 50, 100times.
    Veterans that desire teaching people doing so were already doing so and it was totally possible to do so without any problems if you're willing to learn. and not any change will be able to do better, thoses that refuses to learn will remain bad and rejected by the community no matter what you do. But right now people that desire to learn through lfg has no opportunity to improve and remain stuck to training run forever unless using killproof.me which forces everyone to alt-tab (but unlike wooden plank seems that's intended gameplay) every single lfg, how this is any better? also you have to take in account that old kp have far more value as new one as there were specific to 1 fractal.
    Overall if you think that forcing player to stop joining the fractal community and inciting vets to stop that content is helping in any ways, well then be it, but I highly doubt its gonna work out.

  • Veprovina.4876Veprovina.4876 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Fangoth.4503 said:

    @Veprovina.4876 said:

    @Fangoth.4503 said:
    once again i disagree. i want to play with player roughly my level whithout having to bother login in everyday at the same time. and it totally has its place in lfg, you have to be delusionnal if you think that mixing 5 or 10 randoms person will give a good outcome in a semi-difficult content. Just go have a look at public boneskinner there you can see how well it works ;)
    additionnally guilds are based on being frend together with often lead to some player putting not much effert and being carried and is not removed from the team because he is your virtual friend so guild is a big nono for me as either training or perfectionnement, community is fine for training whether its raid/fractal as there is not that much friendship factor to it.
    You disliking KP is fine, just create you own group or join a group without kp and deal with the consequences of your ideas. But stopping a system that work fine for the majority to satisfy you idea isn't a good way, even worse it just kitten up every new player that desire to start CM, well done!
    To compare, if you want skydive without parachute its fine, go for it, its your own choice but don't impose it to others...

    I get where you're coming from and like i said - i know why people do it and i know it works.
    But for this not to seem like a giant middle finger to people who are using LFG, Anet needs to do this internally as a mechanic. Such as - You get "passive points" for killing a boss, and you can set your party in LFG to only allow people with "X" points. The difference between the current system and this one? Well, it's basically the same but here Anet takes the responsibility for gating content instead of players themselves - making the whole community seem less "toxic" (quotation marks emhpasized), to people who don't like not being allowed into the party. This is why Raiders are viewed as elitists and why KP/LI thing gets so much hate on the forums by peope who can't get a party. And while they're at it - make an additional use out of that mentor badge you spent your hard earned Tyria points to get to make a special training LFG for people to get extra rewards - to balance out the gated content via the internal KP like points by incentivizing experienced people to train PUGs. That way, PUGs get their first kill and can start joining KP parties, and KP people get to play with someone who knows the mechanic. Simple solution.

    Are you working for Anet? so far it seems that both them and you are thinking killing the boss once make you a good enough player. it would be the true ** if** we were on a fast release scheme and where the new thing makes the old one irrelevant because players would kill a couple of time the boss and move to the next one. But we are in GW2 so there in no gear improvement and new content with a slight difficulty is so slow to come out that players focuses on improving their skills making player with big skill differences whether you killed the boss 1, 5, 10, 50, 100times.
    Veterans that desire teaching people doing so were already doing so and it was totally possible to do so without any problems if you're willing to learn. and not any change will be able to do better, thoses that refuses to learn will remain bad and rejected by the community no matter what you do. But right now people that desire to learn through lfg has no opportunity to improve and remain stuck to training run forever unless using killproof.me which forces everyone to alt-tab (but unlike wooden plank seems that's intended gameplay) every single lfg, how this is any better? also you have to take in account that old kp have far more value as new one as there were specific to 1 fractal.
    Overall if you think that forcing player to stop joining the fractal community and inciting vets to stop that content is helping in any ways, well then be it, but I highly doubt its gonna work out.

    Wow, i'm agreeing with you and i get this treatment? There's no need to be adversarial, and i feel like you misunderstood what i said so let me rephrase it.

    You said people use KP to find simmilar abled members of the party. Some have 1, some have 100. If that system would be internal, then the game would count how many times you killed a boss instead of you and display it in the LFG, and could be chosen in the LFG requirements to join. If you select 50, that means you don't want people who killed the boss less than 50 times.

    Meanwhile...

    Veterans already ARE helping people with fractals like you said right? Then what i proposed would just reward them for doing so, where did you get the idea anyone is inciting vets to stop doing that content? Or that anyone is forced to stop joining the fractal community?

    All i said was that what players are already doing now with KP should be an internal game system. Nothing else. Nothing would change, you're all already doing that.
    How you managed to dig up all that other stuff i have no idea.

  • lare.5129lare.5129 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Svetli.4276 said:
    Why not T4 to give kp and cm just to give more kp?

    why yo think that is this way your or our kp will have any value ?

  • Fangoth.4503Fangoth.4503 Member ✭✭✭

    @Veprovina.4876 said:

    @Fangoth.4503 said:

    @Veprovina.4876 said:

    @Fangoth.4503 said:
    once again i disagree. i want to play with player roughly my level whithout having to bother login in everyday at the same time. and it totally has its place in lfg, you have to be delusionnal if you think that mixing 5 or 10 randoms person will give a good outcome in a semi-difficult content. Just go have a look at public boneskinner there you can see how well it works ;)
    additionnally guilds are based on being frend together with often lead to some player putting not much effert and being carried and is not removed from the team because he is your virtual friend so guild is a big nono for me as either training or perfectionnement, community is fine for training whether its raid/fractal as there is not that much friendship factor to it.
    You disliking KP is fine, just create you own group or join a group without kp and deal with the consequences of your ideas. But stopping a system that work fine for the majority to satisfy you idea isn't a good way, even worse it just kitten up every new player that desire to start CM, well done!
    To compare, if you want skydive without parachute its fine, go for it, its your own choice but don't impose it to others...

    I get where you're coming from and like i said - i know why people do it and i know it works.
    But for this not to seem like a giant middle finger to people who are using LFG, Anet needs to do this internally as a mechanic. Such as - You get "passive points" for killing a boss, and you can set your party in LFG to only allow people with "X" points. The difference between the current system and this one? Well, it's basically the same but here Anet takes the responsibility for gating content instead of players themselves - making the whole community seem less "toxic" (quotation marks emhpasized), to people who don't like not being allowed into the party. This is why Raiders are viewed as elitists and why KP/LI thing gets so much hate on the forums by peope who can't get a party. And while they're at it - make an additional use out of that mentor badge you spent your hard earned Tyria points to get to make a special training LFG for people to get extra rewards - to balance out the gated content via the internal KP like points by incentivizing experienced people to train PUGs. That way, PUGs get their first kill and can start joining KP parties, and KP people get to play with someone who knows the mechanic. Simple solution.

    Are you working for Anet? so far it seems that both them and you are thinking killing the boss once make you a good enough player. it would be the true ** if** we were on a fast release scheme and where the new thing makes the old one irrelevant because players would kill a couple of time the boss and move to the next one. But we are in GW2 so there in no gear improvement and new content with a slight difficulty is so slow to come out that players focuses on improving their skills making player with big skill differences whether you killed the boss 1, 5, 10, 50, 100times.
    Veterans that desire teaching people doing so were already doing so and it was totally possible to do so without any problems if you're willing to learn. and not any change will be able to do better, thoses that refuses to learn will remain bad and rejected by the community no matter what you do. But right now people that desire to learn through lfg has no opportunity to improve and remain stuck to training run forever unless using killproof.me which forces everyone to alt-tab (but unlike wooden plank seems that's intended gameplay) every single lfg, how this is any better? also you have to take in account that old kp have far more value as new one as there were specific to 1 fractal.
    Overall if you think that forcing player to stop joining the fractal community and inciting vets to stop that content is helping in any ways, well then be it, but I highly doubt its gonna work out.

    Wow, i'm agreeing with you and i get this treatment? There's no need to be adversarial, and i feel like you misunderstood what i said so let me rephrase it.

    You said people use KP to find simmilar abled members of the party. Some have 1, some have 100. If that system would be internal, then the game would count how many times you killed a boss instead of you and display it in the LFG, and could be chosen in the LFG requirements to join. If you select 50, that means you don't want people who killed the boss less than 50 times.

    Meanwhile...

    Veterans already ARE helping people with fractals like you said right? Then what i proposed would just reward them for doing so, where did you get the idea anyone is inciting vets to stop doing that content? Or that anyone is forced to stop joining the fractal community?

    All i said was that what players are already doing now with KP should be an internal game system. Nothing else. Nothing would change, you're all already doing that.
    How you managed to dig up all that other stuff i have no idea.

    My bad, i though you meant that only couple of kill would be enough so yeah i guess we agrees that having an internal counter and the opportunity to base lfg on that would be great but sadly not gonna happens event though it's the best that could happen.

    People are incitated to stop as dev did a mistake by changing kp to a new wallet version while maintaining the old one present and they refuses admit their mistakes and clean their mess by either going back the old system or force converting old kp to new one. at the moment as new player its a struggle to link your kp because you need people to go check outside the game while its much faster for vet to use the old system, ping and you're sorted. of course doesn't seem to change much for vet if you don't take in account that the community is something that decrease overtime due to people going to other gamemode/games and get more or less renewed by adding new player to the community. Sadly right now new player cannot get old kp so they cannot get in the fractal community hence making the dev descision one of the poorest ever done!
    Of course the community could transition from old to new but its stupid, why use something less efficient if you still have better?

    for training my personal opinion is that dev cannot do that as player doest't play as dev would, so whatever they come up to incitate vet to help will be a failure, like how many people go do their weekly t1 t2 t3? Imo they'd better offer soething like a bountyboard where a you can advertise your training guild/discord and let the trainind in players hands. it's not possible atm because you would have to 1-be online; 2-be stuck in lfg; 3-replace the ad everytime you log in, and no will do that on a daily basis because there is so many constraint, lock you out of most content and no benefits to it (unlike selling raid/achiev).

  • Veprovina.4876Veprovina.4876 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Fangoth.4503 said:

    @Veprovina.4876 said:

    @Fangoth.4503 said:

    @Veprovina.4876 said:

    @Fangoth.4503 said:
    once again i disagree. i want to play with player roughly my level whithout having to bother login in everyday at the same time. and it totally has its place in lfg, you have to be delusionnal if you think that mixing 5 or 10 randoms person will give a good outcome in a semi-difficult content. Just go have a look at public boneskinner there you can see how well it works ;)
    additionnally guilds are based on being frend together with often lead to some player putting not much effert and being carried and is not removed from the team because he is your virtual friend so guild is a big nono for me as either training or perfectionnement, community is fine for training whether its raid/fractal as there is not that much friendship factor to it.
    You disliking KP is fine, just create you own group or join a group without kp and deal with the consequences of your ideas. But stopping a system that work fine for the majority to satisfy you idea isn't a good way, even worse it just kitten up every new player that desire to start CM, well done!
    To compare, if you want skydive without parachute its fine, go for it, its your own choice but don't impose it to others...

    I get where you're coming from and like i said - i know why people do it and i know it works.
    But for this not to seem like a giant middle finger to people who are using LFG, Anet needs to do this internally as a mechanic. Such as - You get "passive points" for killing a boss, and you can set your party in LFG to only allow people with "X" points. The difference between the current system and this one? Well, it's basically the same but here Anet takes the responsibility for gating content instead of players themselves - making the whole community seem less "toxic" (quotation marks emhpasized), to people who don't like not being allowed into the party. This is why Raiders are viewed as elitists and why KP/LI thing gets so much hate on the forums by peope who can't get a party. And while they're at it - make an additional use out of that mentor badge you spent your hard earned Tyria points to get to make a special training LFG for people to get extra rewards - to balance out the gated content via the internal KP like points by incentivizing experienced people to train PUGs. That way, PUGs get their first kill and can start joining KP parties, and KP people get to play with someone who knows the mechanic. Simple solution.

    Are you working for Anet? so far it seems that both them and you are thinking killing the boss once make you a good enough player. it would be the true ** if** we were on a fast release scheme and where the new thing makes the old one irrelevant because players would kill a couple of time the boss and move to the next one. But we are in GW2 so there in no gear improvement and new content with a slight difficulty is so slow to come out that players focuses on improving their skills making player with big skill differences whether you killed the boss 1, 5, 10, 50, 100times.
    Veterans that desire teaching people doing so were already doing so and it was totally possible to do so without any problems if you're willing to learn. and not any change will be able to do better, thoses that refuses to learn will remain bad and rejected by the community no matter what you do. But right now people that desire to learn through lfg has no opportunity to improve and remain stuck to training run forever unless using killproof.me which forces everyone to alt-tab (but unlike wooden plank seems that's intended gameplay) every single lfg, how this is any better? also you have to take in account that old kp have far more value as new one as there were specific to 1 fractal.
    Overall if you think that forcing player to stop joining the fractal community and inciting vets to stop that content is helping in any ways, well then be it, but I highly doubt its gonna work out.

    Wow, i'm agreeing with you and i get this treatment? There's no need to be adversarial, and i feel like you misunderstood what i said so let me rephrase it.

    You said people use KP to find simmilar abled members of the party. Some have 1, some have 100. If that system would be internal, then the game would count how many times you killed a boss instead of you and display it in the LFG, and could be chosen in the LFG requirements to join. If you select 50, that means you don't want people who killed the boss less than 50 times.

    Meanwhile...

    Veterans already ARE helping people with fractals like you said right? Then what i proposed would just reward them for doing so, where did you get the idea anyone is inciting vets to stop doing that content? Or that anyone is forced to stop joining the fractal community?

    All i said was that what players are already doing now with KP should be an internal game system. Nothing else. Nothing would change, you're all already doing that.
    How you managed to dig up all that other stuff i have no idea.

    My bad, i though you meant that only couple of kill would be enough so yeah i guess we agrees that having an internal counter and the opportunity to base lfg on that would be great but sadly not gonna happens event though it's the best that could happen.

    People are incitated to stop as dev did a mistake by changing kp to a new wallet version while maintaining the old one present and they refuses admit their mistakes and clean their mess by either going back the old system or force converting old kp to new one. at the moment as new player its a struggle to link your kp because you need people to go check outside the game while its much faster for vet to use the old system, ping and you're sorted. of course doesn't seem to change much for vet if you don't take in account that the community is something that decrease overtime due to people going to other gamemode/games and get more or less renewed by adding new player to the community. Sadly right now new player cannot get old kp so they cannot get in the fractal community hence making the dev descision one of the poorest ever done!
    Of course the community could transition from old to new but its stupid, why use something less efficient if you still have better?

    for training my personal opinion is that dev cannot do that as player doest't play as dev would, so whatever they come up to incitate vet to help will be a failure, like how many people go do their weekly t1 t2 t3? Imo they'd better offer soething like a bountyboard where a you can advertise your training guild/discord and let the trainind in players hands. it's not possible atm because you would have to 1-be online; 2-be stuck in lfg; 3-replace the ad everytime you log in, and no will do that on a daily basis because there is so many constraint, lock you out of most content and no benefits to it (unlike selling raid/achiev).

    Thanks. And no problem, i probably didn't make myself clear enough.

    And yeah, i mean, if people are already using KP to get party members, then why not make a system out of it?

    I understand both sides of the argument though. On one hand, asking for killproof is kinda kittenish to some players, they see it as toxic, but on the other hand, Anet designed those encounters to be extremely hard and requires players to know what they're doing. Just random pugs that joiun might have never event tried that fractal, and it wastes time for everybody involved. And those encounters are designed in a way that prohibit partying with inexperienced players (as they'll probably fail). So of course people will find a way to party with simmilarly experienced players. At that point - why not just let them and make a system out of it right?

    And since that hard content requires training - why not reward people for doing so? They're already training people, a reward for training with a mentor badge would be really nice of Anet.

    On one hand they make extremely hard content, and on the other hand it should be a free for all in public parties. It doesn't make sense.
    I guess they were banking on guilds being a key ingredient here but as you said, it doesn't always work.

    Idk... At this point, i think it's up to Anet to decide what direction they want to take and design a system that will funnel players actions towards that. If they want an open LFG, then make the challange motes easier so everyone can complete them. If they want hard content, then make a system so that players with simmilar experience can find each other. There's no other way.

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Veprovina.4876 said:
    And yeah, i mean, if people are already using KP to get party members, then why not make a system out of it?

    Because that's not something they want to officially sanction.

    I understand both sides of the argument though. On one hand, asking for killproof is kinda kittenish to some players, they see it as toxic, but on the other hand, Anet designed those encounters to be extremely hard and requires players to know what they're doing.

    Problem is, Anet always wanted more players to get into higher end content - be it raids, strikes or Fractal CMs. They still want that, even if they're not supporting some of those types of content anymore.

    In truth, they did not design the encounters to be extremely hard. In theory (and from pure balance point of view, when comparing to the absolute best players can do) those encounters are actually quite easy. The problem lies in the massive (way, way greater than in other MMORPGs) stratification of GW2 playerbase according to even small skill differences, which is a result of core game design.
    So, the raids aren't that difficult when compared to what the top players could potentially clear, but the skill level required is still at a level not enough players reach. And since differences between skill "tiers" are so massive, it's often not a matter of improving just a little bit. There's also a certain qualitative, binary threshold to pass - either you are above it, and then you can eventually learn to do any high-end content, or you are below it, and improving by just small steps won't help you ever pass it.

    Just random pugs that joiun might have never event tried that fractal, and it wastes time for everybody involved. And those encounters are designed in a way that prohibit partying with inexperienced players (as they'll probably fail). So of course people will find a way to party with simmilarly experienced players. At that point - why not just let them and make a system out of it right?

    Again, because Anet doesn't want to officially sanction this kind of behaviour. It's one thing to know about it and do not prevent it from happening, but it's a completely different thing to officially encourage it, or encode that into the game. That would be a powerful statement from devs - and if you think people are dissatisfied with situation now, that's still probably nothing to what would happen if Anet were to do that.

    Basically, while Anet is okay with doing high-end content (and, what's more, they not only like doing that, but would probably liked to do way more of it), they are no longer willing to do it at a too big a cost to their more casual community.

    And since that hard content requires training - why not reward people for doing so? They're already training people, a reward for training with a mentor badge would be really nice of Anet.

    There's probably no way to do that which would also not be heavily exploitable.

    On one hand they make extremely hard content, and on the other hand it should be a free for all in public parties. It doesn't make sense.
    I guess they were banking on guilds being a key ingredient here but as you said, it doesn't always work.

    They wanted far more people to be able to do the content. They just completely underestimated the impact their own game systems would have on this and didn't realize how big a barrier it would create - a barrier that cannot be removed without complete redo of several core game systems (which is something they'd be unlikly to ever want to tackle with, short of making a new game)

    Idk... At this point, i think it's up to Anet to decide what direction they want to take and design a system that will funnel players actions towards that. If they want an open LFG, then make the challange motes easier so everyone can complete them. If they want hard content, then make a system so that players with simmilar experience can find each other. There's no other way.

    They cannot do the former, without angering the remains of hardcore community. They cannot do the latter, without causing waves at the more casual part of community (unless they would also remove any incentives for non-hardcores to ever go there, which is again likely to anger the hardcores). And they cannot create a funnel that would work, because they would need to redo too many parts of the core game first.
    So, it continues on without any meaningful changes.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • Veprovina.4876Veprovina.4876 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @Veprovina.4876 said:
    And yeah, i mean, if people are already using KP to get party members, then why not make a system out of it?

    Because that's not something they want to officially sanction.

    I understand both sides of the argument though. On one hand, asking for killproof is kinda kittenish to some players, they see it as toxic, but on the other hand, Anet designed those encounters to be extremely hard and requires players to know what they're doing.

    Problem is, Anet always wanted more players to get into higher end content - be it raids, strikes or Fractal CMs. They still want that, even if they're not supporting some of those types of content anymore.

    In truth, they did not design the encounters to be extremely hard. In theory (and from pure balance point of view, when comparing to the absolute best players can do) those encounters are actually quite easy. The problem lies in the massive (way, way greater than in other MMORPGs) stratification of GW2 playerbase according to even small skill differences, which is a result of core game design.
    So, the raids aren't that difficult when compared to what the top players could potentially clear, but the skill level required is still at a level not enough players reach. And since differences between skill "tiers" are so massive, it's often not a matter of improving just a little bit. There's also a certain qualitative, binary threshold to pass - either you are above it, and then you can eventually learn to do any high-end content, or you are below it, and improving by just small steps won't help you ever pass it.

    Just random pugs that joiun might have never event tried that fractal, and it wastes time for everybody involved. And those encounters are designed in a way that prohibit partying with inexperienced players (as they'll probably fail). So of course people will find a way to party with simmilarly experienced players. At that point - why not just let them and make a system out of it right?

    Again, because Anet doesn't want to officially sanction this kind of behaviour. It's one thing to know about it and do not prevent it from happening, but it's a completely different thing to officially encourage it, or encode that into the game. That would be a powerful statement from devs - and if you think people are dissatisfied with situation now, that's still probably nothing to what would happen if Anet were to do that.

    Basically, while Anet is okay with doing high-end content (and, what's more, they not only like doing that, but would probably liked to do way more of it), they are no longer willing to do it at a too big a cost to their more casual community.

    And since that hard content requires training - why not reward people for doing so? They're already training people, a reward for training with a mentor badge would be really nice of Anet.

    There's probably no way to do that which would also not be heavily exploitable.

    On one hand they make extremely hard content, and on the other hand it should be a free for all in public parties. It doesn't make sense.
    I guess they were banking on guilds being a key ingredient here but as you said, it doesn't always work.

    They wanted far more people to be able to do the content. They just completely underestimated the impact their own game systems would have on this and didn't realize how big a barrier it would create - a barrier that cannot be removed without complete redo of several core game systems (which is something they'd be unlikly to ever want to tackle with, short of making a new game)

    Idk... At this point, i think it's up to Anet to decide what direction they want to take and design a system that will funnel players actions towards that. If they want an open LFG, then make the challange motes easier so everyone can complete them. If they want hard content, then make a system so that players with simmilar experience can find each other. There's no other way.

    They cannot do the former, without angering the remains of hardcore community. They cannot do the latter, without causing waves at the more casual part of community (unless they would also remove any incentives for non-hardcores to ever go there, which is again likely to anger the hardcores). And they cannot create a funnel that would work, because they would need to redo too many parts of the core game first.
    So, it continues on without any meaningful changes.

    Yeah... Still, my point stands. It's on Anet right now to take a definitive stand on this and anger a part of the community, or do nothing and nothing will ever change. It remains to be seen how quickly and strongly the resentment from both sides then festers into people eventually quitting the game.
    I don't envy their situation lol, it's a hard one, and a hard choice to make.

  • lare.5129lare.5129 Member ✭✭✭✭

    so summary at this time: don't think that this is problem. Don't like -don't join, may you own group.

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Veprovina.4876 said:
    Yeah... Still, my point stands. It's on Anet right now to take a definitive stand on this and anger a part of the community, or do nothing and nothing will ever change.

    Yes. They probably should have either not do the KP change at all, or do it fully, autoconverting all old tokens into new currency. Unfortunately, they went halfway, and now, whatever they'll do, it won;t be a good solution.

    It remains to be seen how quickly and strongly the resentment from both sides then festers into people eventually quitting the game.

    Notice, that that resentment is not going to disappear no matter the choice. At best, you can shift it around from one group to the other. As long as the primary reason for it remains (which isn't KP), the overall situation is not going to change.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • Veprovina.4876Veprovina.4876 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @Veprovina.4876 said:
    Yeah... Still, my point stands. It's on Anet right now to take a definitive stand on this and anger a part of the community, or do nothing and nothing will ever change.

    Yes. They probably should have either not do the KP change at all, or do it fully, autoconverting all old tokens into new currency. Unfortunately, they went halfway, and now, whatever they'll do, it won;t be a good solution.

    It remains to be seen how quickly and strongly the resentment from both sides then festers into people eventually quitting the game.

    Notice, that that resentment is not going to disappear no matter the choice. At best, you can shift it around from one group to the other. As long as the primary reason for it remains (which isn't KP), the overall situation is not going to change.

    Yes, that's what i meant, whatever they do they'll anger someone at this point lol. :tongue: