Pyromancer's Puissance

It's been awhile since we talked about this one, but can we please remove the might loss when rotating out of fire? I really don't understand this part of the trait. Stacking might is not particularly useful in most groups. Other classes do it better and without giving up might for themselves. But it's especially bad in solo play where a lot of classes can build to self-generate 25 might. Ele not only has to use relatively slow and complicated combo field interactions to pull it off, but now has to give up the might they generate with these fields. Just why?

Also, I know raiding is all that matters to the developers, but as a mostly solo player of a pure condi build it's a little weird that all of the fire grandmaster traits are terrible for this kind of build. You'd think fire would at least contribute a significant net gain to such builds, but since the one trait only really improves power damage and the other gives a very minor burn application in exchange for stealing your might stack, it kind of feels like we're left out in the cold here.

While it might be nice for a niche of builds, for soloplay it promotes Fire-Camping, the antithesis of the Elementalists design.I understand that the idea of stacking might everytime you use a skill in Fire has been part of this Trait for a while now, but I think it's not healthy for the Elementalist as a whole.

It should just be a copy. This one trait changed made core ele the very worst version of ele at all points.

@Bleikopf.2491 said:While it might be nice for a niche of builds, for soloplay it promotes Fire-Camping, the antithesis of the Elementalists design.I understand that the idea of stacking might everytime you use a skill in Fire has been part of this Trait for a while now, but I think it's not healthy for the Elementalist as a whole.

You're right. Based on your feedback, here's a suggestion for a replacement:

Pyromancer's Puissance - Placing combo fields and using combo finishers as well as applying and transmuting auras on yourself grants 1 stack of area might and 2 stacks of personal might for 20 seconds. Combo finishers apply 2 stacks of burning for 1s.

This leaves us with some minor capacity to share might while easily sustaining 25 might in solo play via a less passive mechanism that encourages rotation and combos. It also throws a bone to condition builds (only fair since Persisting Flames is a power trait, right?) by granting the base minimum burn duration of Flame Expulsion in the form of 2 stacks in half the time but applied to combo field interactions. This should make it possible to burst a respectable amount of burning via chaining combo field interactions woven into your rotation.

I'm fine with removing Flame Expulsion.

However, I do not want to see that Might generation changed or removed.

However, I do not want to see that Might generation changed or removed.

Hmm. My main issue is that the Might generation is limited to one Attunement. Of course, gaining 1 Stack of Might everytime you use a Skill on any attunement would be stupidly broken.I do believe however that Might should stay an integral part of the Fire Traitline's identity. IMO should be changed, but not removed.

@Fueki.4753 said:I'm fine with removing Flame Expulsion.

However, I do not want to see that Might generation changed or removed.

Well, that's no fun! But I can't say it doesn't work for me. Whatever they do (or don't!), I just want that might loss to go! Ele should be able to generate might with this trait and not have to give it up every time they leave fire attunement!

@AliamRationem.5172 said:

@Fueki.4753 said:I'm fine with removing Flame Expulsion.

However, I do not want to see that Might generation changed or removed.

The worse part for me is the Might loss in Overload.The way it is now, Overload only has value as a finishing move to kill the enemy or right at the start (which I usually do).But using the Overload midfight is just detrimental.

What i do not get is why is Flame expulsion so weak even at the max might lost? Might maybe one of the strongest boon remove effects for dmg burst in the game yet its worst then life force on necor and energy on rev.

You can even expand that argument for auras ele must eat there auras to get the auras transmutation effect skill and the ONE trait fire for 2 condi clears it dose not seem worth it for the class requirement of wepon trait and aura for what it gets.

Why dose the ele class get so little effect for such a high cost?

@Jski.6180 said:What i do not get is why is Flame expulsion so weak even at the max might lost? Might maybe one of the strongest boon remove effects for dmg burst in the game yet its worst then life force on necor and energy on rev.

You can even expand that argument for auras ele must eat there auras to get the auras transmutation effect skill and the ONE trait fire for 2 condi clears it dose not seem worth it for the class requirement of wepon trait and aura for what it gets.

Why dose the ele class get so little effect for such a high cost?

I agree, I'd rather see them buff Flame Expulsion instead of removing it + might loss.

@Tuco.2419 said:

@Jski.6180 said:What i do not get is why is Flame expulsion so weak even at the max might lost? Might maybe one of the strongest boon remove effects for dmg burst in the game yet its worst then life force on necor and energy on rev.

You can even expand that argument for auras ele must eat there auras to get the auras transmutation effect skill and the ONE trait fire for 2 condi clears it dose not seem worth it for the class requirement of wepon trait and aura for what it gets.

Why dose the ele class get so little effect for such a high cost?

Might loss has to go, imo. It's really unfair and unnecessary that of all classes ele has to continuously give up 10 stacks of might. Does this class really need a handicap of -250 power vs. everyone else?

@AliamRationem.5172 said:

@Tuco.2419 said:

@Jski.6180 said:What i do not get is why is Flame expulsion so weak even at the max might lost? Might maybe one of the strongest boon remove effects for dmg burst in the game yet its worst then life force on necor and energy on rev.

You can even expand that argument for auras ele must eat there auras to get the auras transmutation effect skill and the ONE trait fire for 2 condi clears it dose not seem worth it for the class requirement of wepon trait and aura for what it gets.

Why dose the ele class get so little effect for such a high cost?

It's fair if Flame Expulsion was balanced by increasing its impact significantly. And an interesting ability. Just making it a might generation ability would be kind of boring.

Right now the single layer of burning we get from it is overshadowed by the damage we lose on the other 20+ stacks of burning we're chucking at the mob. Meanwhile our allies don't even notice the sacrifice we're making for their benefit because they're already might-capped from the other hundred ways to gain might.

This was a straight up PvP nerf some troll always pushed for it on the board now at least Weaver is dead in PvP because of this. Developers didn't realize weaver is a high risk high reward built which keeps bunker builds in check by building up might during their I'm immune to dmg over time skill . There are skills which goes trough this but ele has only a cc on staff which does this so building up might is the only way to deal with them but until then you have to survive which isn't easy as ele.

I actually said all this before and people properly said it back then.

@"Lord of the Fire.6870" said:This was a straight up PvP nerf some troll always pushed for it on the board now at least Weaver is dead in PvP because of this. Developers didn't realize weaver is a high risk high reward built which keeps bunker builds in check by building up might during their I'm immune to dmg over time skill . There are skills which goes trough this but ele has only a cc on staff which does this so building up might is the only way to deal with them but until then you have to survive which isn't easy as ele.

I actually said all this before and people properly said it back then.

If anything, PvP is where flame expulsion is actually useful. You can't just camp fire and stack might anyway and the burst from crits on this skill are actually quite good when you can tack it on simply by rotating out of fire at the end of a big combination. The issue for me is that this effect is nowhere near strong enough to justify constantly losing 10 stacks of might in PvE and the "group benefit" of sharing might is not very...beneficial as compensation.

@AliamRationem.5172 said:

@"Lord of the Fire.6870" said:This was a straight up PvP nerf some troll always pushed for it on the board now at least Weaver is dead in PvP because of this. Developers didn't realize weaver is a high risk high reward built which keeps bunker builds in check by building up might during their I'm immune to dmg over time skill . There are skills which goes trough this but ele has only a cc on staff which does this so building up might is the only way to deal with them but until then you have to survive which isn't easy as ele.

I actually said all this before and people properly said it back then.

In theory perhaps but the problem is in PvP Weaver are played as a solo class /roamer so the might goes often nowhere also its the same in PvP the lose doesn't compensate for the lose of nearly half of the DPS also the trait triggers very random so even if you want you can't use it. also the condi dmg from this trait is hard caped which made it absolute useless. As result Weaver did fall from meta build to last in the list in meta battle basically trash tier.

Because of this I don't use the trait in PvP and I don't use Weaver I use the sigil (which stacks might ) and overload and other skills to stack might.

I will defend this skill esp the flame expulsion part as one of the best and smartest traits on ele and i god hope it doesn't change

i think people misunderstands its function, its not a might stacking trait, its might flush/management trait to prevent might overstacking or to incorporate into your might generation cycle, it reward fast might comboing outside fire, so instead of slow stack might degradation "since there is long intervals between each stack" they run out in the same time, so instead of them simply running out in the same time u get to utilize them via flame expulsion which is a unique mechanic i really hope doesn't go away cuz people misunderstand it.

@"volca.7234" said:I will defend this skill esp the flame expulsion part as one of the best and smartest traits on ele and i god hope it doesn't change

i think people misunderstands its function, its not a might stacking trait, its might flush/management trait to prevent might overstacking or to incorporate into your might generation cycle, it reward fast might comboing outside fire, so instead of slow stack might degradation "since there is long intervals between each stack" they run out in the same time, so instead of them simply running out in the same time u get to utilize them via flame expulsion which is a unique mechanic i really hope doesn't go away cuz people misunderstand it.

From a pvp standpoint it was a reliable way to gain might. Old school ele that relied on comboing fire fields to stack might doesnt really work in todays environment with boon removal and damage spam. Damage on ele is subpar but it also has no means to stack large amounts of might for extended periods of time apart from fire fields. What people really want is damage. They should revert burning fire to provide 3 stacks of might for 10s when you use a cantrip.

@"volca.7234" said:i think people misunderstands its function, its not a might stacking traitIt's.. pretty neat at might stacking though.its might flush/management trait to prevent might overstackingIt contributes to overstacking.or to incorporate into your might generation cycle, it reward fast might comboing outside fire, so instead of slow stack might degradation "since there is long intervals between each stack" they run out in the same time, so instead of them simply running out in the same time u get to utilize them via flame expulsionThe tradeoff just doesn't feel fair. Flame Expulsion isn't worth 10 stacks of might.which is a unique mechanic i really hope doesn't go away cuz people misunderstand it.Sadly, unique doesn't necessarily mean useful.If the goal was to utilize might overstacking, there are many other ways to do it that don't steal your boons.IMO it's not worth a Major Grandmaster Slot.

@Bleikopf.2491 said:

@"volca.7234" said:It's.. pretty neat at might stacking though.Most of your might come from outside fire sources there is only 2 fire skills that give might focus 5 and scepter3 blast, for might fire is just there for the fieldsand even focus5 and scepter3 are better with this trait overall esp in a scepter3 fresh air burst

@volca.7234 said:

@Bleikopf.2491 said:

@volca.7234 said:It's.. pretty neat at might stacking though.Most of your might come from outside fire sources there is only 2 fire skills that give might focus 5 and scepter3 blast, for might fire is just there for the fieldsand even focus5 and scepter3 are better with this trait overall esp in a scepter3 fresh air burst

Your only getting might from one class set up of tempest in a meaningful amount of your simply a core ele who uses this and only gets might in a meaningful way in fire and ONLY in fire as you lose it when you drop out of fire atument.

Ele is an off meta class and often it cant be supported in the same way other classes are due to its low hp / def making it need to be over all more evasive during combat. This means your might from other classes realy any support from other classes will simply miss making the ele class a self support only class.

Its not a good trade off and its very "odd" for the ele class type to have such an effect as its a non boon control class at all points but this one. Ele is not giving up its boons to deal with other classes or to reset all boons and condis effects.

Now anet has added in a give up effects for the ele class and that is fine as long as this give up effect comes with a meaningful trade off. The class already had this trade off before aura transmutation and now this give up might in its atuments it self. You have to chose to give up all your other atuments effects to be in any other given atument (not healing in fire and not burning in water) but there was a trade off that you could see and play with in mind. There simply a full lose for giving up might with Flame expulsion in its current form. You can make the argument for transmutation as well as there only one trait that effects them and the size of the aoe of the transmutation them self often nerfs there over all effect for a MAGES class whom is made to stay away from dangers targets.

Fire line dose not give enofe might over all to make the new pyromancer's puissance a viable chose for dps. In a way anet has removed might from the ele class so much so that you can only get it from tempest both fire overload and might shouts both wich core ele nor weaver can do anywhere at the same level all due to the lost of might with out a BIG effect.

I will also say Transmutation also dose not give off a strong enofe effect for the lost of the aura.

@Jski.6180 said:

Your only getting might from one class set up of tempest in a meaningful amount of your simply a core ele who uses this and only gets might in a meaningful way in fire and ONLY in fire as you lose it when you drop out of fire atument.

That's literally not true, base ele is capable of AT LEAST perma 9 to 14 might stacks without any trait in the game and ONLY from his weapon skills combos no traits no utility skills nothing, only depending on the weapon combination. And all my reply will assume that we are talking about core ele because both weaver and tempest can generate might so fast your point simply doesn't stand.

Now anet has added in a give up effects for the ele class and that is fine as long as this give up effect comes with a meaningful trade off. The class already had this trade off before aura transmutation and now this give up might in its atuments it self. You have to chose to give up all your other atuments effects to be in any other given atument (not healing in fire and not burning in water) but there was a trade off that you could see and play with in mind. There simply a full lose for giving up might with Flame expulsion in its current form. You can make the argument for transmutation as well as there only one trait that effects them and the size of the aoe of the transmutation them self often nerfs there over all effect for a MAGES class whom is made to stay away from dangers targets.The fire transmute might can activate AFTER flame expulsion activation if u got a sliver of quickness simply transmute and change attunment in the same time, test it for yourself if u think u got the quick hands for it, on base ele that is. If u got weaver well just off hand your fire

Fire line dose not give enofe might over all to make the new pyromancer's puissance a viable chose for dps. In a way anet has removed might from the ele class so much so that you can only get it from tempest both fire overload and might shouts both wich core ele nor weaver can do anywhere at the same level all due to the lost of might with out a BIG effect.pyromancer's puissance can net u semi perma 25 might in your sec might rotation its absolutely doable without even considering any trait line, utility skill or elite spec

I will also say Transmutation also dose not give off a strong enofe effect for the lost of the aura.you gain a free fire aura when attuning to fire if u got the fire trait line

@Jski.6180 said:

@volca.7234 said:

@Bleikopf.2491 said:

@volca.7234 said:It's.. pretty neat at might stacking though.Most of your might come from outside fire sources there is only 2 fire skills that give might focus 5 and scepter3 blast, for might fire is just there for the fieldsand even focus5 and scepter3 are better with this trait overall esp in a scepter3 fresh air burst

I remember on scepter there was something that helped getting might. I could be misremembering because its been a while, but I think it was the fire rush ability thing that gave multiple stacks in a row,

Alright, how about this? You lose up to 10 stacks of might to produce flame expulsion, but gain 3 seconds of quickness.

Thats really interesting i'd have to think a bout the implications since if i remember wouldn't this benefit tempest quite a lot in staff? if i remember they got some slow abilities.

@Axl.8924 said:Thats really interesting i'd have to think a bout the implications since if i remember wouldn't this benefit tempest quite a lot in staff? if i remember they got some slow abilities.

cough all abilities in Staff are slow cough

But yes, I've been thinking something similar, however Quickness doesn't really fall in line with Elementalist. Anet would have to decide to open up the identity of Elementalist/Fire Traitline before giving us any new buffs.