Ideas for fixing raid — Guild Wars 2 Forums
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Ideas for fixing raid

1 - no time
2 - fix damage system to avoid rotations
3 - TIERS
4 - Story Mode
5 - Make Anet Guides by Dev to how to do a raid, (wiki is not helpfull and is ilarius how the game got tons of specs but is closed to 3-4 setups and all guides are for elitis and speedrun not common playerbase)
6 - Make legy weapon and armor more powerfull or make stat encreased on mastery base like 1% = 1 mastery
7 - cm still activable on choice
8 - for speed clear run and elitis made some record table so they proper enjoy theyrself whit weakly reward for the first 5 team some like "clear time" "damage dealt" or someting like that

so those are my point list to improve raids and make those enjoinable by all kind of players, so now can we argue about those point make your pov about and make Anet fix the situation

Comments

  • Khamul.9837Khamul.9837 Member ✭✭
    edited December 10, 2020

    @LordMorgul.9845 said:
    5 - Make Anet Guides by Dev to how to do a raid, (wiki is not helpfull and is ilarius how the game got tons of specs but is closed to 3-4 setups and all guides are for elitis and speedrun not common playerbase)

    A big part of the raid experience is to figure out boss mechanics by yourself, a guide made by Anet wouldn't make sense. There are already a lot of good guides out there.

    @LordMorgul.9845 said:
    2 - fix damage system to avoid rotations

    I don't really get that point. There will be always an optimal rotation except u remove all Skills but autoattacks.

    Best way to fix raids would be release more of them. Maybe with "easy modes" on strike mission level to affect a larger playerbase. Also real repetable CMs would be great.

  • Nephalem.8921Nephalem.8921 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @LordMorgul.9845 said:
    1 - no time

    If anything the timers should be way shorter

    2 - fix damage system to avoid rotations

    WoW and FF do have rotations and are quite successful with it. How would you change it? Everything except aa is a dps loss? Why are you even playing an action combat game if you want afk arena gameplay.

    3 - TIERS

    We have easy and normal currently. Nobody does normal though because its a 1 time reward.

    5 - Make Anet Guides by Dev to how to do a raid, (wiki is not helpfull and is ilarius how the game got tons of specs but is closed to 3-4 setups and all guides are for elitis and speedrun not common playerbase)

    There are tons of guides for your average playerbase.

    6 - Make legy weapon and armor more powerfull or make stat encreased on mastery base like 1% = 1 mastery

    This would make them more toxic and its one of the only mmos where skill matters more than time invested.

  • sokeenoppa.5384sokeenoppa.5384 Member ✭✭✭✭

    For some1 that raids alot, your suggestion didn't "fix" raids. Actually it destroyed raids.

    I'll have two number 9s, a number 9 large, a number 6 with extra dip, a number 7, two number 45s, one with cheese, and a large soda.

  • 6 - Make legy weapon and armor more powerfull or make stat encreased on mastery base like 1% = 1 mastery

    Are u serious

  • lare.5129lare.5129 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 10, 2020

    @LordMorgul.9845 said:
    1 - no time

    good. very good idea. Also reworkd all achiv in raid that depend from time.

    2 - fix damage system to avoid rotations

    in most cases for many classes we not have rotation, only skills priority. Change you holosmith to more easy class.

    3 - TIERS

    tier to complex, and too spread for 10x content

    4 - Story Mode

    no please. All OW is story mode for raid

    5 - Make Anet Guides by Dev to how to do a raid,

    already done. use search system to find a lot of videos how people raid.

    6 - Make legy weapon and armor more powerfull or make stat encreased on mastery base like 1% = 1 mastery

    leg is same is ascend . it is ok. But increase mastery base like 1% = 1 mastery will break some mechanic, to much changes, not thanks.

    7 - cm still activable on choice

    it is already still activable.

    8 - for speed clear run and elitis made some record table so they proper enjoy theyrself

    we already have it. https://www.speedrun.com/gw2
    [qT] wins.

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 10, 2020

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:

    @LordMorgul.9845 said:
    1 - no time

    The timer isn't why players fail.

    Correction. While timer usually isn't the direct cause of failure, but it can, and does often cause failures by removing some options from the table, as well as putting the group under pressure. Doubt removing it would help the current raids any, but it would be a possibility for any potential easy mode.

    2 - fix damage system to avoid rotations

    There's nothing wrong with rotations and every single build can have them.

    That's highly subjective. There's nothing wrong about them to you. It doesn't mean there's nothing wrong about them to others.
    As i see it, there's nothing wrong about the idea of rotations, but there's indeed quite a lot of problems with how this got implemented in GW2.

    3 - TIERS

    Tiers wouldn't resolve anything as the mechanics would still need to be learned and the weakened versions would be ignored in lower tiers.

    As we already know, this in itself is a highly debatable issue, big enough to be worth a separate thread. And, again, very subjective one. For me, i will say that you are just plain wrong. Sure, tiers would not resolve some issues, but they would help with others. You not caring about those other issues doesn't mean they don't exist or would not be helped by tiers.

    4 - Story Mode

    There's very little story in raids and a one and done mode doesn't wouldn't be worth the effort to make.

    This i agree. Dungeon story modes were for the most part a failure. Let's not repeat that. Especially when easy mode should work good enough for it.

    5 - Make Anet Guides by Dev to how to do a raid, (wiki is not helpfull and is ilarius how the game got tons of specs but is closed to 3-4 setups and all guides are for elitis and speedrun not common playerbase)

    What's wrong with all of the guides created by players? All guides and builds are for all players.

    Considering how a lot of encounters are now being done in ways different (but more efficient, and easier) than the strategies originally envisioned by devs, and how some encounters can have several valid strats depending on group preferences, i don't see how dev-sanctioned guides would help.
    Also, for the issues brought up, if anything, it would make the matters worse. If anyone thinks that current third-party-created strats are too restricting, imagine what would happen if the strategies were official.

    6 - Make legy weapon and armor more powerfull or make stat encreased on mastery base like 1% = 1 mastery

    No. We don't need more power creep.

    Agreed.

    @sokeenoppa.5384 said:
    For some1 that raids alot, your suggestion didn't "fix" raids. Actually it destroyed raids.

    Considering that none of those ever got implemented (except for the point 7, which was present from the start), that's just factually not true.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • @LordMorgul.9845 said:
    1 - no time
    2 - fix damage system to avoid rotations
    3 - TIERS
    4 - Story Mode
    5 - Make Anet Guides by Dev to how to do a raid, (wiki is not helpfull and is ilarius how the game got tons of specs but is closed to 3-4 setups and all guides are for elitis and speedrun not common playerbase)
    6 - Make legy weapon and armor more powerfull or make stat encreased on mastery base like 1% = 1 mastery
    7 - cm still activable on choice
    8 - for speed clear run and elitis made some record table so they proper enjoy theyrself whit weakly reward for the first 5 team some like "clear time" "damage dealt" or someting like that

    so those are my point list to improve raids and make those enjoinable by all kind of players, so now can we argue about those point make your pov about and make Anet fix the situation

    So basicly bring mm and let its minions kill boss for you

  • Ayrilana.1396Ayrilana.1396 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:

    @LordMorgul.9845 said:
    1 - no time

    The timer isn't why players fail.

    Correction. While timer usually isn't the direct cause of failure, but it can, and does often cause failures by removing some options from the table, as well as putting the group under pressure. Doubt removing it would help the current raids any, but it would be a possibility for any potential easy mode.

    It really doesn’t once you calculate the minimum DPS a group would need if they spent the full duration of the timer. Groups fail to the mechanics; not the timer.

    2 - fix damage system to avoid rotations

    There's nothing wrong with rotations and every single build can have them.

    That's highly subjective. There's nothing wrong about them to you. It doesn't mean there's nothing wrong about them to others.
    As i see it, there's nothing wrong about the idea of rotations, but there's indeed quite a lot of problems with how this got implemented in GW2.

    You need to understand what a rotation is. Practically any way that a player commonly uses their skills is a rotation. Mashing their skills is a rotation. Removing rotations is practically impossible.

    3 - TIERS

    Tiers wouldn't resolve anything as the mechanics would still need to be learned and the weakened versions would be ignored in lower tiers.

    As we already know, this in itself is a highly debatable issue, big enough to be worth a separate thread. And, again, very subjective one. For me, i will say that you are just plain wrong. Sure, tiers would not resolve some issues, but they would help with others. You not caring about those other issues doesn't mean they don't exist or would not be helped by tiers.

    The mechanics don’t really have all that much scalability. This is especially true if you only add one additional “difficulty mode”.

    What will happen is that players will ignore the mechanics if it’s not dangerous enough to the party. You see this during world bosses as well as the ice construct strike mission.

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 10, 2020

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:

    As i see it, there's nothing wrong about the idea of rotations, but there's indeed quite a lot of problems with how this got implemented in GW2.

    You need to understand what a rotation is. Practically any way that a player commonly uses their skills is a rotation. Mashing their skills is a rotation. Removing rotations is practically impossible.

    Then we understand the term differently. For me, random mashing buttons is not a rotation. It is random mashing buttons. Rotation for me is having a certain sequence of skills you need to follow in the right order. The alternative would be a dynamic system, where you use skills according to the current situation and certain priorities, and have no set rotation to follow.

    As we already know, this in itself is a highly debatable issue, big enough to be worth a separate thread. And, again, very subjective one. For me, i will say that you are just plain wrong. Sure, tiers would not resolve some issues, but they would help with others. You not caring about those other issues doesn't mean they don't exist or would not be helped by tiers.

    The mechanics don’t really have all that much scalability. This is especially true if you only add one additional “difficulty mode”.

    What will happen is that players will ignore the mechanics if it’s not dangerous enough to the party. You see this during world bosses as well as the ice construct strike mission.

    Like i said, you caring only about certain issues doesn't make all the others disappear. You are still thinking only in the context of progression, of easy modes being a training ground for the modes above. That's not the only (or the best) use of the tiers idea though.
    Just look at FF XIV, for example. They happen to use the idea far better.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • yann.1946yann.1946 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:

    As i see it, there's nothing wrong about the idea of rotations, but there's indeed quite a lot of problems with how this got implemented in GW2.

    You need to understand what a rotation is. Practically any way that a player commonly uses their skills is a rotation. Mashing their skills is a rotation. Removing rotations is practically impossible.

    Then we understand the term differently. For me, random mashing buttons is not a rotation. It is random mashing buttons. Rotation for me is having a certain sequence of skills you need to follow in the right order. The alternative would be a dynamic system, where you use skills according to the current situation and certain priorities, and have no set rotation to follow.

    This is actually a super interesting point to me,
    Doesn't a dynamic system eventually lead to rotations?
    And gw2 system is also pretty dynamic (most things are priority based and the rotation is just the optimum of those priorities)

  • Tyson.5160Tyson.5160 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:

    @LordMorgul.9845 said:

    6 - Make legy weapon and armor more powerfull or make stat encreased on mastery base like 1% = 1 mastery

    No. We don't need more power creep.

    I suspect when EoD is released, there will be power creep and depending on the elite specs, may trivialize Raids.

  • Tyson.5160Tyson.5160 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Khamul.9837 said:

    @LordMorgul.9845 said:
    5 - Make Anet Guides by Dev to how to do a raid, (wiki is not helpfull and is ilarius how the game got tons of specs but is closed to 3-4 setups and all guides are for elitis and speedrun not common playerbase)

    A big part of the raid experience is to figure out boss mechanics by yourself, a guide made by Anet wouldn't make sense. There are already a lot of good guides out there.

    Best way to fix raids would be release more of them. Maybe with "easy modes" on strike mission level to affect a larger playerbase. Also real repetable CMs would be great.

    I agree with this, because clearly Anet doesn’t think it’s worth the dev time to make more raids. If an easy mode was introduced then that would open a larger player base to the mode, this would give Anet a reason to design more.

  • Ayrilana.1396Ayrilana.1396 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:

    As i see it, there's nothing wrong about the idea of rotations, but there's indeed quite a lot of problems with how this got implemented in GW2.

    You need to understand what a rotation is. Practically any way that a player commonly uses their skills is a rotation. Mashing their skills is a rotation. Removing rotations is practically impossible.

    Then we understand the term differently. For me, random mashing buttons is not a rotation. It is random mashing buttons. Rotation for me is having a certain sequence of skills you need to follow in the right order. The alternative would be a dynamic system, where you use skills according to the current situation and certain priorities, and have no set rotation to follow.

    Rotation is simply a sequence that players normally follow when using their skills. It can range from super specific, highly efficient rotations as you see on SC to those that players make up for themselves and get in the habit of using. A shortbow ranger hitting 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 and then using those skills off cool down is doing a rotation.

    The dynamic system you’re speaking of would not happen in GW2 as it would be an entire overhaul of the combat system.

    As we already know, this in itself is a highly debatable issue, big enough to be worth a separate thread. And, again, very subjective one. For me, i will say that you are just plain wrong. Sure, tiers would not resolve some issues, but they would help with others. You not caring about those other issues doesn't mean they don't exist or would not be helped by tiers.

    The mechanics don’t really have all that much scalability. This is especially true if you only add one additional “difficulty mode”.

    What will happen is that players will ignore the mechanics if it’s not dangerous enough to the party. You see this during world bosses as well as the ice construct strike mission.

    Like i said, you caring only about certain issues doesn't make all the others disappear. You are still thinking only in the context of progression, of easy modes being a training ground for the modes above. That's not the only (or the best) use of the tiers idea though.
    Just look at FF XIV, for example. They happen to use the idea far better.

    One of the primary arguments for tiers is it would allow progression. The only other time that you really see another reason used is they want to experience the nearly nonexistent story.

    Raids were developed to be the most challenging content in the game. The other 99% of the game doesn’t require any thought or skill to do. If players don’t want to do challenging content then they have other areas of the game to play.

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @LordMorgul.9845 said:
    6 - Make legy weapon and armor more powerfull or make stat encreased on mastery base like 1% = 1 mastery

    Question, do you mean 1 mastery ability or points acquired? So if I have mastery points that I don't use will I get that % boost or not?

  • Shikaru.7618Shikaru.7618 Member ✭✭✭

    @yann.1946 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:

    As i see it, there's nothing wrong about the idea of rotations, but there's indeed quite a lot of problems with how this got implemented in GW2.

    You need to understand what a rotation is. Practically any way that a player commonly uses their skills is a rotation. Mashing their skills is a rotation. Removing rotations is practically impossible.

    Then we understand the term differently. For me, random mashing buttons is not a rotation. It is random mashing buttons. Rotation for me is having a certain sequence of skills you need to follow in the right order. The alternative would be a dynamic system, where you use skills according to the current situation and certain priorities, and have no set rotation to follow.

    This is actually a super interesting point to me,
    Doesn't a dynamic system eventually lead to rotations?
    And gw2 system is also pretty dynamic (most things are priority based and the rotation is just the optimum of those priorities)

    Think dark souls style gameplay where the emphasis is on dodging boss attacks to get an occasional poke in and then retreat. You can technically have a rotation in that game but the windows are generally not large enough for it to matter. Gw2 could technically design a boss encounter that had 20 different attack patterns that you have to react to with very small windows but it would fundamentally change how people play the game for that encounter. Could be interesting but would require a ton of work to make that style of combat feel satisfying in gw2.

  • mindcircus.1506mindcircus.1506 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @LordMorgul.9845 said:
    1 - no time
    2 - fix damage system to avoid rotations
    3 - TIERS
    4 - Story Mode
    5 - Make Anet Guides by Dev to how to do a raid, (wiki is not helpfull and is ilarius how the game got tons of specs but is closed to 3-4 setups and all guides are for elitis and speedrun not common playerbase)
    6 - Make legy weapon and armor more powerfull or make stat encreased on mastery base like 1% = 1 mastery
    7 - cm still activable on choice
    8 - for speed clear run and elitis made some record table so they proper enjoy theyrself whit weakly reward for the first 5 team some like "clear time" "damage dealt" or someting like that

    so those are my point list to improve raids and make those enjoinable by all kind of players, so now can we argue about those point make your pov about and make Anet fix the situation

    Skip 1-8 and just
    9, Make more of them so the people who enjoy the content have something to do

    "We recognize that some players are not able to complete all content." Gaile Gray 01.10.19

  • Nephalem.8921Nephalem.8921 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Shikaru.7618 said:

    @yann.1946 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:

    As i see it, there's nothing wrong about the idea of rotations, but there's indeed quite a lot of problems with how this got implemented in GW2.

    You need to understand what a rotation is. Practically any way that a player commonly uses their skills is a rotation. Mashing their skills is a rotation. Removing rotations is practically impossible.

    Then we understand the term differently. For me, random mashing buttons is not a rotation. It is random mashing buttons. Rotation for me is having a certain sequence of skills you need to follow in the right order. The alternative would be a dynamic system, where you use skills according to the current situation and certain priorities, and have no set rotation to follow.

    This is actually a super interesting point to me,
    Doesn't a dynamic system eventually lead to rotations?
    And gw2 system is also pretty dynamic (most things are priority based and the rotation is just the optimum of those priorities)

    Think dark souls style gameplay where the emphasis is on dodging boss attacks to get an occasional poke in and then retreat. You can technically have a rotation in that game but the windows are generally not large enough for it to matter. Gw2 could technically design a boss encounter that had 20 different attack patterns that you have to react to with very small windows but it would fundamentally change how people play the game for that encounter. Could be interesting but would require a ton of work to make that style of combat feel satisfying in gw2.

    You would stack cfbs and block your way through it. you would still have optimal rotations. good players would also just dodge while doing their rotations.
    What you describe is basically like a dungeon/fractal solo in glass where you need to avoid attacks.

  • DirtyDan.4759DirtyDan.4759 Member ✭✭✭
    edited December 10, 2020

    I don't know what is worse: the original post or the comments...

  • @DirtyDan.4759 said:
    I don't know what is worse: the original post or the comments...

    You lose brain cells reading either one so take your pick lul

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 11, 2020

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:
    One of the primary arguments for tiers is it would allow progression. The only other time that you really see another reason used is they want to experience the nearly nonexistent story.

    That's not quite correct. Sure, this argument is way overused, but that is mainly because it is the only argument raiders are even willing to hear. Any argument that treats easy mode as something more of an independent entity, and not just a crutch for the Real Raids(TM) is immediately ignored. Often not getting even a response.

    It's just, as i said, this is probably one of the worst uses for the easy mode idea

    Raids were developed to be the most challenging content in the game. The other 99% of the game doesn’t require any thought or skill to do. If players don’t want to do challenging content then they have other areas of the game to play.

    Sure, they were developed to be that. Doesn't mean this is the only choice. Again, look at FF XIV, where both the easier and harder modes exist side by side, with neither being more important than the other. And where existence of normal difficulty raids and trials does not diminish in any way status of savage/extreme tiers.

    Like i said, you are looking at this whole case way too narrowly, and thus are unable to see a bigger picture. Your desire to see current raids as the only raid content that matters colors your perception and makes you unable to see any options that do not fit that narrow viewpoint.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @yann.1946 said:
    This is actually a super interesting point to me,
    Doesn't a dynamic system eventually lead to rotations?

    Depends on the system, i guess. Some will be more prone to it than others.
    Even in GW2, the differencies in situation and environment lead to different types of behaviour. For example, cc skill use is generally not part of rotations. Same with defensive skills. They are used when there's a need for them, and are not included in some preplanned order of skills. Another example would be PvP, which is far less rotation-prone (because in a battle against an opponent that can actually think, being predictable and inflexible are one of the last things you want).

    And gw2 system is also pretty dynamic (most things are priority based and the rotation is just the optimum of those priorities)

    GW2 has too many cases of where certain specific order of skills nets you significantly better results than those very same skills used in a different order. There are builds where cost of going off-rota even for a moment can be very high. In PvE, where you don't have to worry about the opponents exploiting your predictable patterns (and, especially, in high-end pve where the opponents are extremely predictable themselves to the point where you can know when they will be doing their attacks/using special mechanics before they even started doing it), this generally leads to strict and often lengthy rotations.

    But again, it depends on situation and environment. Let's just say that, in general, in PvE GW2 playstyle is not really all that dynamic at all.

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:
    The dynamic system you’re speaking of would not happen in GW2 as it would be an entire overhaul of the combat system.

    True. Never claimed otherwise. The current system may be a mess, and a source of multitude of problems, but we're still stuck with it.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • Ayrilana.1396Ayrilana.1396 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:
    One of the primary arguments for tiers is it would allow progression. The only other time that you really see another reason used is they want to experience the nearly nonexistent story.

    That's not quite correct. Sure, this argument is way overused, but that is mainly because it is the only argument raiders are even willing to hear. Any argument that treats easy mode as something more of an independent entity, and not just a crutch for the Real Raids(TM) is immediately ignored. Often not getting even a response.

    It's just, as i said, this is probably one of the worst uses for the easy mode idea

    Raids were developed to be the most challenging content in the game. The other 99% of the game doesn’t require any thought or skill to do. If players don’t want to do challenging content then they have other areas of the game to play.

    Sure, they were developed to be that. Doesn't mean this is the only choice. Again, look at FF XIV, where both the easier and harder modes exist side by side, with neither being more important than the other. And where existence of normal difficulty raids and trials does not diminish in any way status of savage/extreme tiers.

    Like i said, you are looking at this whole case way too narrowly, and thus are unable to see a bigger picture. Your desire to see current raids as the only raid content that matters colors your perception and makes you unable to see any options that do not fit that narrow viewpoint.

    When the game was developed, there really wasn’t any challenging content for those that wanted it. Raids was the solution to this and why they were added. Anet’s actions on adding strikes over additional difficulty modes indicates that they still prefer for raids to be the most challenging content in the game.

    Those that don’t want to play challenging content simply don’t need to play raids. The entire game doesn’t need to cater around those players as 99% of the game isn’t really a challenge. I have a friend who has a son and a daughter. Each was given a toy. The son also wanted the toy that the daughter had and got upset. This is how I’m seeing this situation. So much of this game is catered to those that don’t want to play challenging content and they got upset when they saw those that wanted challenging content get content specifically for them.

  • @Ayrilana.1396 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:
    One of the primary arguments for tiers is it would allow progression. The only other time that you really see another reason used is they want to experience the nearly nonexistent story.

    That's not quite correct. Sure, this argument is way overused, but that is mainly because it is the only argument raiders are even willing to hear. Any argument that treats easy mode as something more of an independent entity, and not just a crutch for the Real Raids(TM) is immediately ignored. Often not getting even a response.

    It's just, as i said, this is probably one of the worst uses for the easy mode idea

    Raids were developed to be the most challenging content in the game. The other 99% of the game doesn’t require any thought or skill to do. If players don’t want to do challenging content then they have other areas of the game to play.

    Sure, they were developed to be that. Doesn't mean this is the only choice. Again, look at FF XIV, where both the easier and harder modes exist side by side, with neither being more important than the other. And where existence of normal difficulty raids and trials does not diminish in any way status of savage/extreme tiers.

    Like i said, you are looking at this whole case way too narrowly, and thus are unable to see a bigger picture. Your desire to see current raids as the only raid content that matters colors your perception and makes you unable to see any options that do not fit that narrow viewpoint.

    When the game was developed, there really wasn’t any challenging content for those that wanted it. Raids was the solution to this and why they were added. Anet’s actions on adding strikes over additional difficulty modes indicates that they still prefer for raids to be the most challenging content in the game.

    Those that don’t want to play challenging content simply don’t need to play raids. The entire game doesn’t need to cater around those players as 99% of the game isn’t really a challenge. I have a friend who has a son and a daughter. Each was given a toy. The son also wanted the toy that the daughter had and got upset. This is how I’m seeing this situation. So much of this game is catered to those that don’t want to play challenging content and they got upset when they saw those that wanted challenging content get content specifically for them.

    I agree 100% except armor and ring is locked behind it.
    Make it available on regular pve and half of the problem for people goes away.

  • Fangoth.4503Fangoth.4503 Member ✭✭✭
    edited December 11, 2020

    @LordMorgul.9845 said:
    1 - no time

    Won't change anything so I'd

    2 - fix damage system to avoid rotations

    You cannot remote rotation unless you remove skill 2 to 0

    3 - TIERS

    Why not, would be nice to have more difficult encounter

    4 - Story Mode

    Why not but like any story, no skill needed so no reward

    5 - Make Anet Guides by Dev to how to do a raid, (wiki is not helpfull and is ilarius how the game got tons of specs but is closed to 3-4 setups and all guides are for elitis and speedrun not common playerbase)

    Dev initial idea/strategies are not played as they imagined it so I'd rather have advice from people that have an idea of what is the easiest to do (the players)

    6 - Make legy weapon and armor more powerfull or make stat encreased on mastery base like 1% = 1 mastery

    No don't quadruple stats will make boss be killed in 15sec, just a bad idea.
    What could be done would be to slowly increase stats/level (e.g: every X-Pac) so old bosses become easier and newer remain semi-difficult but it's against the game idea and would involve that they release more raid.

    7 - cm still activable on choice

    It already is you just talk to the mote

    8 - for speed clear run and elitis made some record table so they proper enjoy theyrself whit weakly reward for the first 5 team some like "clear time" "damage dealt" or someting like that

    Meh I think a record of first kill and a reward for it is much more interesting. After it becomes far less interesting to reward it (still remain impressive), rewarding a group because they had time to do X00 pull to manage skipping split phase at gorse would be a bit sad at it would constantly reward the god-tier team with the most time available.
    additionally, it would give player that are currently crying that raid is too hard another thing to cry about.

    About other comments i totally agree that there should be at least another leggy armor/ring as well as the leggy things you can get in pvp/wvw available in pve so player that doesn't want to learn how to play stop to try get to content that is unaccessible based on their skills/gameplay.

  • LordMorgul.9845LordMorgul.9845 Member ✭✭✭
    edited December 12, 2020

    hahah very fun how pp have response on my points... basically most of you don't agree on any point and does make any real propose to make the content ejoinable by more people, and i want to remeber you all that les than 20% of player base do this content and there is people that don't do this content becouse of toxic elitism and play by d1; some people struggle on ROTATION or better to MAKE A PROPER DAMAGE to what? SKYP MECH becouse, ok the easy way make a lot of damage and skyp all,but this is just ONE WAY to do and is the SPEEDRUNNER way, so for sure not the medium player objective that is to at least CLEAR the content, so ill help more your brains explaining why i chose those 8 points:

    1- no time
    why? more relaxed run no need of rush on damage or ranting pp just chill as they want doing mech correctly and goin on goal, maybe whit kight stat or whatever they like

    2 - fix damage system to avoid rotation

    did u see some classes actual rotation? let's talk about u got the "starting" and the "loop" some build have more than 30 skill memory passages do to correctly to maximize the damages and some of u tink this is good... also let's see damage they do : capped all to max 35 k more or less, so why some pp do 65 70 k? those pp are using external programs like macro and other hacks, but is pve content so devs does matter so much than pvp contents, but yes pp hack on pve a lot and i recently have gotted prof of that so being insulted for my damage by a hack pp is really unfair and unworty and if some dev wanna have a talk about i am here

    3 - tiers

    in fractals tiers helped pp to learn the content that is appurate, pp coming from pvp bursting theyr AR and coming to t4 will be kikked in 0 seconds becouse they don't know the mecs and are permadeath, so lover raid tiers will help pp, also becosue a lot of pp and this is appurate : DOES STUDY BOSSES just come in and said? what i need to do? so instead of wasting time on useless train whit pp that is not ready to do this content becouse of theyr laziness, just face them mechs like on fractals whit a curve of learning.

    4 - story mode
    pov is same way of tiers just a easy mode to make pp do theyr AC and enjoy the content

    5- anet guide to raid

    so here some of you have responded " there are guides online" or more basically "watch the internet" poor minded response, and this is why: all guides are for speedrunner, so it's easy to understend that pp that can't do proper damage if use a speedrunner setted guide will fail the raid, so i don't think this were the focus that devs that created the content haved, they put MECHs to do, to goin at the end of the boss, so i want to say how devs have immagined the fight and how they tinked to have it bein done whit all the mechs they putted. i know the easy way is do a lot damage = less mech and this is obvius but there were other ways to do like heal one tanky one ecc modes to finish raid not so common becouse "out of meta" and if u want to go "out of meta" to end the content, most pp rant about and u get insulted or needto leave the content and is not fair or good in a community, so a dev guide will be more helpfull for newbie than a speedrun one.

    6 - Make legy weapon and armor more powerfull or make stat encreased on mastery base like 1% = 1 mastery

    mastery 1% damage it meas the actual mastery as pp said are not really "whorty" or "usefull" so if the actual mastery gives u some increase on stats like 1% of someting (i know is alot maybe real will be 0,2% ) they can make some content easyr that's for the things we already argued in response for someone obiuvsly is the learned mastery not all XD, for the legy the question is the same u spent a lot of time for what? and remenber raid is related to LEGY ARMOR AND TRINKETS so people wanna do for those and easy gold, legy are practical yes but are mostly usueless a little increase on stats can make more pp interested on the content also by now make ascendent gear is easy so making a legy is just for practicity... make them whort more the efforts.

    7 - cm still activable on choice
    cm are the most precius elitist content and speedrunner final objective so this poit is for that pp, i know they don't love nerfed raids or things to make them easy for others (best kind of PP), i don't have maked a clear point here my foult but now ill explain my idea about: cm can be activated in 2 ways 1 by personal player, like more damage some other stuff to do ecc. and this guy will receive something in retourn like double gold or other; but having the guy in single cm how this influence the other raiders? simple the boss do less damage to them as the CM guy/s do theyr stuff. 2 full party cm all party will get the extra reward not like now that cm's is only 1 time effort.

    8 - for speed clear run and elitis made some record table so they proper enjoy theyrself whit weakly reward for the first 5 team some like "clear time" "damage dealt" or someting like that

    i know there are external statistic about this but why don't have it in THE GAME like the pvp tables or wvw tables a RAID tables will be great

    9 - (yes a new point) kill the sellers
    this is for the pp that just does want to change raids, i know that is pov, but it feel strange that every time someone wanna argue about, a lot off pp just come in force to preserve the actual state, making raid easy in the ways we talked just goes against one kind of raiders: the SELLERS those pp does want change in the actual state becouse they make profit of that, they selling runs for a lot of gold, and making raids easy will ruin their scamming game so don't trust the words of pp like that they do in theyr greedy interest.

    and please be propositive not only critics (and yes sorry for my grammar XD)

  • @LordMorgul.9845 said:
    2 - fix damage system to avoid rotation

    did u see some classes actual rotation? let's talk about u got the "starting" and the "loop" some build have more than 30 skill memory passages do to correctly to maximize the damages and some of u tink this is good... also let's see damage they do : capped all to max 35 k more or less, so why some pp do 65 70 k? those pp are using external programs like macro and other hacks, but is pve content so devs does matter so much than pvp contents, but yes pp hack on pve a lot and i recently have gotted prof of that so being insulted for my damage by a hack pp is really unfair and unworty and if some dev wanna have a talk about i am here

    I don't think you know how damage works. First of all, benchmarks are not capped at 35k. There are quite a few builds thar are above that point.
    Let me tell you how some people reach 70k DPS. In you have Potions, slaying sigils, not sigils, slaying potions and the exposed debuff on an enemy once it's breakbar is broken. Pair that with really short phases and you get insane dps. Slaying potions and sigils don't work in Raids, however some bosses can be phased really quick and some literally take 36% more damage from power.
    You can't just look at the numbers in a vacuum and acuse players that actually know their class that they are hacking and cheating. If you want to have a discussion that low you probably shouldn't have started a forum thread.

    9 - (yes a new point) kill the sellers
    this is for the pp that just does want to change raids, i know that is pov, but it feel strange that every time someone wanna argue about, a lot off pp just come in force to preserve the actual state, making raid easy in the ways we talked just goes against one kind of raiders: the SELLERS those pp does want change in the actual state becouse they make profit of that, they selling runs for a lot of gold, and making raids easy will ruin their scamming game so don't trust the words of pp like that they do in theyr greedy interest.

    Its not a scam tho. You aren't forced at gunpoint to use the service and every sell guild that wants to keep selling will do the content you are paying them to do for you.

  • @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @LordMorgul.9845 said:
    i want to remeber you all that les than 20% of player base do this content and there is people that don't do this content becouse of toxic elitism and play by d1

    If we take a look at the easier Strike Missions we can see that 20% of the playerbase (at best) does those too. If ~20% runs Raids, as you say, and 20% runs the easiest Strike Missions, we can easily conclude what any kind of new tier or mode, will be played by less than 1% of the playerbase. Is it a worthy investment for such a low number?

    becouse this is the same of raid they putted strike to make pp learn raids but some strike like boneskinner and whisper for some are really hard, and they struggle just to dodge for boneskinner or avoid chains... so they do the easyest like kodan ecc and ignore the others, and the actual way to do strike is speedrun like raids and in lfg u can see pp asking for LI kp so they are treathed like raids by most, so those content need to be fixed too if u want pp doing them or change the pov of who make those contents, they tried on the last 2 strikes but pp feel those "too long do to" so the argument its like a uroboro

  • @Icetea.3204 said:

    @LordMorgul.9845 said:
    2 - fix damage system to avoid rotation

    did u see some classes actual rotation? let's talk about u got the "starting" and the "loop" some build have more than 30 skill memory passages do to correctly to maximize the damages and some of u tink this is good... also let's see damage they do : capped all to max 35 k more or less, so why some pp do 65 70 k? those pp are using external programs like macro and other hacks, but is pve content so devs does matter so much than pvp contents, but yes pp hack on pve a lot and i recently have gotted prof of that so being insulted for my damage by a hack pp is really unfair and unworty and if some dev wanna have a talk about i am here

    I don't think you know how damage works. First of all, benchmarks are not capped at 35k. There are quite a few builds thar are above that point.
    Let me tell you how some people reach 70k DPS. In you have Potions, slaying sigils, not sigils, slaying potions and the exposed debuff on an enemy once it's breakbar is broken. Pair that with really short phases and you get insane dps. Slaying potions and sigils don't work in Raids, however some bosses can be phased really quick and some literally take 36% more damage from power.
    You can't just look at the numbers in a vacuum and acuse players that actually know their class that they are hacking and cheating. If you want to have a discussion that low you probably shouldn't have started a forum thread.

    9 - (yes a new point) kill the sellers
    this is for the pp that just does want to change raids, i know that is pov, but it feel strange that every time someone wanna argue about, a lot off pp just come in force to preserve the actual state, making raid easy in the ways we talked just goes against one kind of raiders: the SELLERS those pp does want change in the actual state becouse they make profit of that, they selling runs for a lot of gold, and making raids easy will ruin their scamming game so don't trust the words of pp like that they do in theyr greedy interest.

    Its not a scam tho. You aren't forced at gunpoint to use the service and every sell guild that wants to keep selling will do the content you are paying them to do for you.

    :D ", a lot off pp just come in force to preserve the actual state, " 70k is COSTANT ? i can reach those damage on open and then i low to a solid 25k costant as guardian but some other classes whit more complex rotation makin 70 K COSTANT in not static bosses?? they cheat for sure and remeber i can proof that and how it is diffuse in some speedrun cm and raids but it is also very noticiabile if some put little efforts like i have done

  • LordMorgul.9845LordMorgul.9845 Member ✭✭✭
    edited December 12, 2020

    AND BTW just remenber the Snowblind Fractal was nerfed beocuse pp can lit some fire -.- so i want also to know when dark souls striked on the game? as i see reworked fractal more in line whit old snowblind than the nerfed one.... or instability like birds and others putted removed ecc i tink there is no proper line on the content difficulty and this the whole game from dungeon to raids, like u go chill dg until arah, fractals just watch the sunqua and other frac at t1 yolo pp dying a lot, but also skyss no more fuctional like stability that is the name itself does work on the bridge of spiders in deldrimor fractals and does worh in siren reef boat too XD so plese have brain making contents -.-

  • @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @LordMorgul.9845 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @LordMorgul.9845 said:
    i want to remeber you all that les than 20% of player base do this content and there is people that don't do this content becouse of toxic elitism and play by d1

    If we take a look at the easier Strike Missions we can see that 20% of the playerbase (at best) does those too. If ~20% runs Raids, as you say, and 20% runs the easiest Strike Missions, we can easily conclude what any kind of new tier or mode, will be played by less than 1% of the playerbase. Is it a worthy investment for such a low number?

    becouse this is the same of raid they putted strike to make pp learn raids but some strike like boneskinner and whisper for some are really hard, and they struggle just to dodge for boneskinner or avoid chains... so they do the easyest like kodan ecc and ignore the others, and the actual way to do strike is speedrun like raids and in lfg u can see pp asking for LI kp so they are treathed like raids by most, so those content need to be fixed too if u want pp doing them or change the pov of who make those contents, they tried on the last 2 strikes but pp feel those "too long do to" so the argument its like a uroboro

    Read what I posted. I'm talking about the Icebrood Construct, not Boneskinner or Whisper. The Shiverpeak Pass strike mission doesn't really have better completion rates than the others. It's a simple subtraction, players finishing Shiverpeak Pass minus players finishing Boneskinner or Whisper of Jormag, that's the amount of players interested in "Easy" instanced content. And that numbers isn't exactly sky high, I'm willing to bet it's far lower than the number of players beating Boneskinner or Whisper of Jormag.

    i tink to see real data about content played will be interesting, but i think this is because shiver does have a good loot so in lesser worty to do than the kodan one pp do strike mostly for farming map currency and convert them the shiver one is not related to bjora so no efforts to do that for currency, but if u take the kodan is easy and pay so pp do that, the content can be ejoinable but it need to have some effort for doing it, its like story beutyfull and i love to play but they don't pay so pp don't do those more than once

  • @LordMorgul.9845 said:

    @Icetea.3204 said:

    @LordMorgul.9845 said:
    2 - fix damage system to avoid rotation

    did u see some classes actual rotation? let's talk about u got the "starting" and the "loop" some build have more than 30 skill memory passages do to correctly to maximize the damages and some of u tink this is good... also let's see damage they do : capped all to max 35 k more or less, so why some pp do 65 70 k? those pp are using external programs like macro and other hacks, but is pve content so devs does matter so much than pvp contents, but yes pp hack on pve a lot and i recently have gotted prof of that so being insulted for my damage by a hack pp is really unfair and unworty and if some dev wanna have a talk about i am here

    I don't think you know how damage works. First of all, benchmarks are not capped at 35k. There are quite a few builds thar are above that point.
    Let me tell you how some people reach 70k DPS. In you have Potions, slaying sigils, not sigils, slaying potions and the exposed debuff on an enemy once it's breakbar is broken. Pair that with really short phases and you get insane dps. Slaying potions and sigils don't work in Raids, however some bosses can be phased really quick and some literally take 36% more damage from power.
    You can't just look at the numbers in a vacuum and acuse players that actually know their class that they are hacking and cheating. If you want to have a discussion that low you probably shouldn't have started a forum thread.

    9 - (yes a new point) kill the sellers
    this is for the pp that just does want to change raids, i know that is pov, but it feel strange that every time someone wanna argue about, a lot off pp just come in force to preserve the actual state, making raid easy in the ways we talked just goes against one kind of raiders: the SELLERS those pp does want change in the actual state becouse they make profit of that, they selling runs for a lot of gold, and making raids easy will ruin their scamming game so don't trust the words of pp like that they do in theyr greedy interest.

    Its not a scam tho. You aren't forced at gunpoint to use the service and every sell guild that wants to keep selling will do the content you are paying them to do for you.

    :D ", a lot off pp just come in force to preserve the actual state, " 70k is COSTANT ? i can reach those damage on open and then i low to a solid 25k costant as guardian but some other classes whit more complex rotation makin 70 K COSTANT in not static bosses?? they cheat for sure and remeber i can proof that and how it is diffuse in some speedrun cm and raids but it is also very noticiabile if some put little efforts like i have done

    I would like to see your proof that they are cheating then. If you don't feel comfortable doing this on the forums I'll provide you my discord tag.

  • @Icetea.3204 send it then

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 12, 2020

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @LordMorgul.9845 said:
    i want to remeber you all that les than 20% of player base do this content and there is people that don't do this content becouse of toxic elitism and play by d1

    If we take a look at the easier Strike Missions we can see that 20% of the playerbase (at best) does those too.

    No, we can't. Efficiency statistics at this point are way too unreliable, considering that way too many efficiency accounts can no longer be considered to be "part of the playerbase", as they aren't active anymore.

    We don't have any reliable statistics about more recent content at all.

    But if we were to look at efficiency, we would see completion ratios (out of all efficiency accounts, including inactive ones, remember):
    Coming Home (first step of of Bound by Blood): 118,147 of 279,661 (42.247%)
    A Race to Arms (last step of Bound by Blood): 97,737 of 279,661 (34.948%)
    Stay Frosty (completion of Shiverpeak Strike): 71,209 of 279,661 (25.463%)

    So, we can say that, among efficiency players, 71,209 people completed the strike, out of 97,737 that had completed that LS chapter. Which is 72.858% completion ratio. Or, if we compare it to people that even tried to start the story, it would be 71,209 out of 118,147. Which is 60.271%

    In both cases, way above 20%.

    (by the way, until Steel and Fire, you basically had to do at least first part of the story to even attempt the strike, because the only entrance then was in Grothmar).

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • Ayrilana.1396Ayrilana.1396 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @LordMorgul.9845 said:
    i want to remeber you all that les than 20% of player base do this content and there is people that don't do this content becouse of toxic elitism and play by d1

    If we take a look at the easier Strike Missions we can see that 20% of the playerbase (at best) does those too.

    No, we can't. Efficiency statistics at this point are way too unreliable, considering that way too many efficiency accounts can no longer be considered to be "part of the playerbase", as they aren't active anymore.

    We don't have any reliable statistics about more recent content at all.

    But if we were to look at efficiency, we would see completion ratios (out of all efficiency accounts, including inactive ones, remember):
    Coming Home (first step of of Bound by Blood): 118,147 of 279,661 (42.247%)
    A Race to Arms (last step of Bound by Blood): 97,737 of 279,661 (34.948%)
    Stay Frosty (completion of Shiverpeak Strike): 71,209 of 279,661 (25.463%)

    So, we can say that, among efficiency players, 71,209 people completed the strike, out of 97,737 that had completed that LS chapter. Which is 72.858% completion ratio. Or, if we compare it to people that even tried to start the story, it would be 71,209 out of 118,147. Which is 60.271%

    In both cases, way above 20%.

    (by the way, until Steel and Fire, you basically had to do at least first part of the story to even attempt the strike, because the only entrance then was in Grothmar).

    You don't need to complete, or even start, the story episode to do that strike.

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 12, 2020

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @LordMorgul.9845 said:
    i want to remeber you all that les than 20% of player base do this content and there is people that don't do this content becouse of toxic elitism and play by d1

    If we take a look at the easier Strike Missions we can see that 20% of the playerbase (at best) does those too.

    No, we can't. Efficiency statistics at this point are way too unreliable, considering that way too many efficiency accounts can no longer be considered to be "part of the playerbase", as they aren't active anymore.

    We don't have any reliable statistics about more recent content at all.

    But if we were to look at efficiency, we would see completion ratios (out of all efficiency accounts, including inactive ones, remember):
    Coming Home (first step of of Bound by Blood): 118,147 of 279,661 (42.247%)
    A Race to Arms (last step of Bound by Blood): 97,737 of 279,661 (34.948%)
    Stay Frosty (completion of Shiverpeak Strike): 71,209 of 279,661 (25.463%)

    So, we can say that, among efficiency players, 71,209 people completed the strike, out of 97,737 that had completed that LS chapter. Which is 72.858% completion ratio. Or, if we compare it to people that even tried to start the story, it would be 71,209 out of 118,147. Which is 60.271%

    In both cases, way above 20%.

    (by the way, until Steel and Fire, you basically had to do at least first part of the story to even attempt the strike, because the only entrance then was in Grothmar).

    It is weird that my gw2efficiency data is different, so I'm gonna use mine:
    Coming Home: 99,408 of 235,412 (42.227%)
    A Race to Arms: 82,254 of 235,412 (34.940%)
    Stay Frosty: 59,997 of 235,412 (25.486%)
    Percentages are very similar to yours although player counts are different.
    59997 out of 82254 players finished the Strike, or, 73%

    However, you didn't add anything to compare it to. For example, you should've followed your train of thought:

    Silence: 88,999 of 235,412 (37.806%) first step of Whisper in the Dark
    The Invitation: 81,325 of 235,412 (34.546%) final step of Whisper in the Dark
    Legendary Voice of the Fallen and Claw of the Fallen: 51,002 of 235,412 (21.665%)
    51002 out of 81325 players finished the Strike Mission of Voice and Claw, or 62.7%
    There is no reason to believe that players that killed Voice and Claw didn't kill the Icebrood Construct, which leads us to the percentage of the playerbase that is interested to instanced content of lower difficulty than Voice and Claw (73-62.7 = 10.3%, so adding a lower difficulty tier on Voice and Claw to accommodate those players would net a measly ~10%, is it worth adding a new tier for that number?

    Chasing Ghosts: 977,211 of 235,412 (32.798%) first step of Shadow in the Ice
    Voice in the Deep: 70,930 of 235,412 (30.130%) completion of Shadow in the Ice
    Legendary Whisper of Jormag: 39,311 of 235,412 (16.699%)
    There is no reason to believe that players that killed Whisper didn't also kill the previous Strike Mission bosses.
    39311 of 70930 killed Whisper of Jormag, or 55.4%
    Let's follow the same logic as above, an "easy mode" for Whisper of Jormag is for about 73-55.4=17.6%

    Obviously it's much more complicated than that, but you can easily see what's the percentage of players interested in easier instanced content. It's not as high as some people around these forums would have us believe. The question is if their numbers are enough to justify an extra new tier of difficulty created for them.

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 12, 2020

    For a quick summary:
    As I said in my post here: https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/1388148/#Comment_1388148 and the data in my post above confirm:
    Easy Strike: 73%
    Medium Strike: 62%
    Hard Strike: 55%

    This can be easily adapted for Raids too, as Whisper is very similar to a Raid boss, even harder than the easier ones. This gives us a very nice baseline of the potential audience for easier instanced content (and harder of course). In the above example, one extra tier would only provide access to 7% - 18% more, or if 2 new tiers were added, 7%/11%. Compared to the 55% that does the harder version, those easier tiers would need to justify their existence. The myth of "adding new tiers would greatly expand the audience" is just that, a myth.

  • flog.3485flog.3485 Member ✭✭✭

    You won’t get higher number of players playing raids unless you literally force them to play easy mode because the main storyline is locked behind it.

    The problem is that this philosophy of game structure is very much what guild wars 2 never wanted to have. Simple as that.

    If you want more players raiding through easy mode, following guild wars 2 system, then the raids need to be forced down in some way and have good enough rewards that are competitive in comparison to fractals yet not better than what normal raid rewards offer.

    At this point, it would be better if this “easy mode” was provided through the guild system, where this easy mode would provide rewards that are needed in order to further upgrade the guild hall as well as offer extra rewards for running the challenge motes of normal raids as a guild.

    When it comes to the “easy mode”, I think it would be a waste of time for devs to find further ways of making the boss easier by reducing the mechanics of the fight.
    The best would be to use existing gear enrichments like fractal infusion (using new guild content rewards that allow you to transform these infusion) to get raid specific bonus attributes that makes the fight way easier and that are only used in these easy mode raid instances.

    Obviously it would force players to get ascended gear but since ascended is already required for fractals and there are multiple sources of ascended gear available, it really wouldn’t be a problem.

    tl;dr
    Make easy mode raid mandatory for new guild content and rewards by first requiring players to get ascended gear.

  • You want to make this game more easy? why you don´t play a hack and slash if you only want press 1 botton and kill all

  • @LordMorgul.9845 said:
    1 - no time

    So player can stack heal to the infinite ? it's supposed to be the most challenging content of the game, trivalizing it is not a good idea

    2 - fix damage system to avoid rotations

    you can't, there will always be rotation, simply because it's the way to do the most damage, there is no way to remove them

    3 - TIERS

    Why not a story mode and an hard mode

    4 - Story Mode

    -3

    5 - Make Anet Guides by Dev to how to do a raid, (wiki is not helpfull and is ilarius how the game got tons of specs but is closed to 3-4 setups and all guides are for elitis and speedrun not common playerbase)

    You can definitly find offmeta build easely nowday, even snowcrow have ton of good off meta build.

    6 - Make legy weapon and armor more powerfull or make stat encreased on mastery base like 1% = 1 mastery

    No powercreep, it's just trivvalize the game even more

    7 - cm still activable on choice

    ??? not sure to understand

    8 - for speed clear run and elitis made some record table so they proper enjoy theyrself whit weakly reward for the first 5 team some like "clear time" "damage dealt" or someting like that

    Cool idea.

    so those are my point list to improve raids and make those enjoinable by all kind of players, so now can we argue about those point make your pov about and make Anet fix the situation

    There is no way to make a endgame content for everyone, even openworld or story are not enjoyable for everyone as people that like challenge, true cooperation and so much more don't like it to, same for story or any gamemode honestly.

  • @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:

    As i see it, there's nothing wrong about the idea of rotations, but there's indeed quite a lot of problems with how this got implemented in GW2.

    You need to understand what a rotation is. Practically any way that a player commonly uses their skills is a rotation. Mashing their skills is a rotation. Removing rotations is practically impossible.

    Then we understand the term differently. For me, random mashing buttons is not a rotation. It is random mashing buttons. Rotation for me is having a certain sequence of skills you need to follow in the right order. The alternative would be a dynamic system, where you use skills according to the current situation and certain priorities, and have no set rotation to follow.

    As we already know, this in itself is a highly debatable issue, big enough to be worth a separate thread. And, again, very subjective one. For me, i will say that you are just plain wrong. Sure, tiers would not resolve some issues, but they would help with others. You not caring about those other issues doesn't mean they don't exist or would not be helped by tiers.

    The mechanics don’t really have all that much scalability. This is especially true if you only add one additional “difficulty mode”.

    What will happen is that players will ignore the mechanics if it’s not dangerous enough to the party. You see this during world bosses as well as the ice construct strike mission.

    Like i said, you caring only about certain issues doesn't make all the others disappear. You are still thinking only in the context of progression, of easy modes being a training ground for the modes above. That's not the only (or the best) use of the tiers idea though.
    Just look at FF XIV, for example. They happen to use the idea far better.

    Funny thing, we have one spec that is close to that, which is mirage which don't have a rotation but a priority list (still a rotation in some way, maybe more hard to use), and it's even more obvious on largos, where your priorities complety change depending on attack pattern.

  • I would like to see your proof that they are cheating then. If you don't feel comfortable doing this on the forums I'll provide you my discord tag.

    @Icetea.3204 I have my popcorn ready, were they cheating? :)

  • @LordMorgul.9845 said:
    hahah very fun how pp have response on my points... basically most of you don't agree on any point and does make any real propose to make the content ejoinable by more people, and i want to remeber you all that les than 20% of player base do this content and there is people that don't do this content becouse of toxic elitism and play by d1; some people struggle on ROTATION or better to MAKE A PROPER DAMAGE to what? SKYP MECH becouse, ok the easy way make a lot of damage and skyp all,but this is just ONE WAY to do and is the SPEEDRUNNER way, so for sure not the medium player objective that is to at least CLEAR the content, so ill help more your brains explaining why i chose those 8 points:

    1- no time
    why? more relaxed run no need of rush on damage or ranting pp just chill as they want doing mech correctly and goin on goal, maybe whit kight stat or whatever they like

    My pov after point 4

    2 - fix damage system to avoid rotation

    did u see some classes actual rotation? let's talk about u got the "starting" and the "loop" some build have more than 30 skill memory passages do to correctly to maximize the damages and some of u tink this is good... also let's see damage they do : capped all to max 35 k more or less, so why some pp do 65 70 k? those pp are using external programs like macro and other hacks, but is pve content so devs does matter so much than pvp contents, but yes pp hack on pve a lot and i recently have gotted prof of that so being insulted for my damage by a hack pp is really unfair and unworty and if some dev wanna have a talk about i am here

    did i get this right, you dont want to have a "rotaion" in the game, because ppl can use 3rd party programm to get more dmg? if that is the case, arena net just needs to kick this hackers from raids (maybe not permanent but for a couple weeks)... but tbh on some bosses you can get more dmg than on the golem (since the boss can get a d-buff which allows more dmg). The question is now would a hardcore elitist maybe get a ban from that system because he trained that one class 100+h on the golem and he gets banned, just because his/her rotation is just too perfect, is that fair? (i dont say, that there are some hackers in the community, but what is the risk? and what is the benefit of it?)

    with the roation, i play myself a couple raid classes... and as long you are not dps racing with a support chrono (or the alac rev) in a 100li+ group you will not get flamed for your dmg, the dmg on thouse websides just tell you what they are pressing and how to get their dmg. if you read all they write on the webside (like what triggers what and how does your burst look, and after that you go to the golem and look try that out for 20 min) you will get some decent dmg (not top dps, but good dmg)

    3 - tiers

    in fractals tiers helped pp to learn the content that is appurate, pp coming from pvp bursting theyr AR and coming to t4 will be kikked in 0 seconds becouse they don't know the mecs and are permadeath, so lover raid tiers will help pp, also becosue a lot of pp and this is appurate : DOES STUDY BOSSES just come in and said? what i need to do? so instead of wasting time on useless train whit pp that is not ready to do this content becouse of theyr laziness, just face them mechs like on fractals whit a curve of learning.

    I will give you my pov after point 5

    4 - story mode
    pov is same way of tiers just a easy mode to make pp do theyr AC and enjoy the content

    If area net should introduce a "easy" mode for raids, that would not be played by at least 90% of the raid playerbase and by pve players max once or maybe twice, since you cant give the same rewart for that and for the "normal" raid

    They could implement a "beginner" mode with no time... but there is no "li" and no "kp" at the end of it... the only thing you get is some yellow items and like 50 silver... since if you would give li and kp to that, they would make the 250li+ groups a nightmare... bc they are used to have like 5 healers, and in the other groups they have max 2.

    5- anet guide to raid

    so here some of you have responded " there are guides online" or more basically "watch the internet" poor minded response, and this is why: all guides are for speedrunner, so it's easy to understend that pp that can't do proper damage if use a speedrunner setted guide will fail the raid, so i don't think this were the focus that devs that created the content haved, they put MECHs to do, to goin at the end of the boss, so i want to say how devs have immagined the fight and how they tinked to have it bein done whit all the mechs they putted. i know the easy way is do a lot damage = less mech and this is obvius but there were other ways to do like heal one tanky one ecc modes to finish raid not so common becouse "out of meta" and if u want to go "out of meta" to end the content, most pp rant about and u get insulted or needto leave the content and is not fair or good in a community, so a dev guide will be more helpfull for newbie than a speedrun one.

    I will put here my response to this and to point 3, since i think they are pretty close to each other. In my opinion arena net, should put some Raid mechanics into Strikemissions, exp. instead of the chains at "whisper of jormag" you get a tp field under your char (like at Cairn and Vale guard). That tp will teleport you either to a random location in the arena or something else (i cant think of something else). A other example, would be a keep 2 npc apart to kill them both at the Boneskinner, instead of the fire mechanic (at the outside)... there you need to keep a "young boneskinner" apart from a "boneskinner shaman" (the shaman has invounerability and casts that to other enemys in a 300 radius) when the baby dies once the shaman loses 50% of his health, and the baby gets healed to full again (like at samarog) this way you can easy introduce some mechs to the community and the guides you finde online are easier to follow (since you know some mechs, bosses can have)

    6 - Make legy weapon and armor more powerfull or make stat encreased on mastery base like 1% = 1 mastery

    mastery 1% damage it meas the actual mastery as pp said are not really "whorty" or "usefull" so if the actual mastery gives u some increase on stats like 1% of someting (i know is alot maybe real will be 0,2% ) they can make some content easyr that's for the things we already argued in response for someone obiuvsly is the learned mastery not all XD, for the legy the question is the same u spent a lot of time for what? and remenber raid is related to LEGY ARMOR AND TRINKETS so people wanna do for those and easy gold, legy are practical yes but are mostly usueless a little increase on stats can make more pp interested on the content also by now make ascendent gear is easy so making a legy is just for practicity... make them whort more the efforts.

    I think that this is a bad idea, because this is gonna make high li groups even more toxic... the lfg would (most likely) be "W3, BS 400 li & 349 mastery and Ping legy armor" (the reason we dont need to ping ascendet armor is, that its "easy" to get if you have 50+ li, and everything lower than that is basically training). Arena net talked once about the Legy armory, which is a comfort increas with the armor, and it should stay that way.
    And with the mastery thing, the only thing they need to to for it is, that you get some comfort stuff in raids, but shouldnt make the easier, for example, you bounce 0.01% higher on a bomb jumppad per point, or you move 0.01% faster, but not everything is applied the player can either choose some.

    7 - cm still activable on choice
    cm are the most precius elitist content and speedrunner final objective so this poit is for that pp, i know they don't love nerfed raids or things to make them easy for others (best kind of PP), i don't have maked a clear point here my foult but now ill explain my idea about: cm can be activated in 2 ways 1 by personal player, like more damage some other stuff to do ecc. and this guy will receive something in retourn like double gold or other; but having the guy in single cm how this influence the other raiders? simple the boss do less damage to them as the CM guy/s do theyr stuff. 2 full party cm all party will get the extra reward not like now that cm's is only 1 time effort.

    Since CM adds some extra mechanics, i dont think that would be a good idea (or at least really hard to do). For example, on the "Deimos" fight (last Boss on W4) you have a NPC which needs to survive the fight, in normal mode you can heal him up, on CM that cant be done. There are even some other fight, that would make this hard to do. I cant really give you a good "answer" for that point, i think it should stay as it is

    8 - for speed clear run and elitis made some record table so they proper enjoy theyrself whit weakly reward for the first 5 team some like "clear time" "damage dealt" or someting like that

    Really good idea, i think thats (in my opinion) a really good point.

    9 - (yes a new point) kill the sellers

    Why is raid selling a issue? Tbh, the only way to "kill" raid sellers, is to not buy their products... and if someone wants to spend 300g+ just to get 3-4 li and dead raidbosses, that is on them, you dont have to bother with that.

    LI = Legendary Insights (You get 1 of this after every Raidboss kill, but only once a week)
    kp= Kill Proof (every boss gives 1-5 of them, and you can proof with them that you killed the boss a couple times)
    W4= Is the Raid Wing 4 (bastion of the penitent)
    W3= Is the Raid Wing 3 (Stronghold of the Faithful)
    CM= Challenge Mode (this is a harder version of a specific Boss)
    BS= Banner Slave (this a version of playing the warrior class in raids)

    Sorry for any mistakes... i hope you know what i mean ^^ (not english native)
    And i hope this has the right format, and i didnt screw up xD

  • Grimjack.8130Grimjack.8130 Member ✭✭✭

    if this is the average player, im not sure i wanna see the below average player

    I'm a well known nobody.
    Former member of [MnF], [DnT], [dP], and [Hg]. Winner of the 2018 ERP Tournament.

  • Sobx.1758Sobx.1758 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 5, 2021

    @LordMorgul.9845 nothing from your post magically "fixes" raids, for the most part I'd say what @Ayrilana.1396 already said.

    Except I'm also curious how would you "fix damage to avoid rotations". Literally walk me through your process of reworking whatever you need reworked that eliminates the possibility of creating optimal dmg rotations. I'd say it's impossible, but maybe -hopefully- you'll surprise me, so show me what you've got.

    8 - for speed clear run and elitis made some record table so they proper enjoy theyrself whit weakly reward for the first 5 team some like "clear time" "damage dealt" or someting like that

    Also you seem to want to reduce the elitism and then as a grand final you... encourage elitism by additionally rewarding optimal playthroughs. hmm...

  • Linken.6345Linken.6345 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 5, 2021

    @Sobx.1758 said:
    @LordMorgul.9845 nothing from your post magically "fixes" raids, for the most part I'd say what @Ayrilana.1396 already said.

    Except I'm also curious how would you "fix damage to avoid rotations". Literally walk me through your process of reworking whatever you need reworked that eliminates the possibility of creating optimal dmg rotations. I'd say it's impossible, but maybe -hopefully- you'll surprise me, so show me what you've got.

    8 - for speed clear run and elitis made some record table so they proper enjoy theyrself whit weakly reward for the first 5 team some like "clear time" "damage dealt" or someting like that

    Also you seem to want to reduce the elitism and then as a grand final you... encourage elitism by additionally rewarding optimal playthroughs. hmm...

    All get 1 skill and 1 skill only poof rotations gone.
    Edit
    That is the only way it could work not that anyone want that tho.

  • Sobx.1758Sobx.1758 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Linken.6345 said:

    @Sobx.1758 said:
    @LordMorgul.9845 nothing from your post magically "fixes" raids, for the most part I'd say what @Ayrilana.1396 already said.

    Except I'm also curious how would you "fix damage to avoid rotations". Literally walk me through your process of reworking whatever you need reworked that eliminates the possibility of creating optimal dmg rotations. I'd say it's impossible, but maybe -hopefully- you'll surprise me, so show me what you've got.

    8 - for speed clear run and elitis made some record table so they proper enjoy theyrself whit weakly reward for the first 5 team some like "clear time" "damage dealt" or someting like that

    Also you seem to want to reduce the elitism and then as a grand final you... encourage elitism by additionally rewarding optimal playthroughs. hmm...

    All get 1 skill and 1 skill only poof rotations gone.
    Edit
    That is the only way it could work not that anyone want that tho.

    Yup, that's about the only thing I could think of, you'd need to normalize AA to be the highest dmging "skill" in all of the classes, preferably without chain because breaking chain = lowering dps of the "rotation" already. I think OP has his fixes all figured out then ;p