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Does anyone here want a Healer/ Support Thief?

MatyrGustav.6210MatyrGustav.6210 Member ✭✭
edited December 12, 2020 in Thief

I know I do. Thief was my main profession, but I ended up switching to Druid, and then Ventari Revenant when Anet started making classes heal more. I love playing Healing classes, especially when stealth is involved. I know at this point we are expecting Assassin with Off-Hand sword, but I think we truly can't rule out a healer Espec just yet. 

I know it won't happen,  but i wish to play a .....

Shadowmancer (The Mage Spec)

Class Function 

  • Shadow Cast - Steal an item, increase healing potency for a duration, and provide Regeneration to nearby allies.

Weapon - Scepter 

  • (Skill 1) Shadow Surge - Magic combo that applies Torment each hit. (Can be traited to drop heal orbs)
  • (Skill 2) Shadow Bolt - Projectile with Area of effect explosion that damages and also inflicts torment.
  • (Skill 3) Dark Blessing - Area channel Healing per second + Remove 1 condition per second.
  • (Out of Stealth attack)  Manifestation - Attack damage is increased based on the amount of conditions your target is suffering from, also Blinds.

Utility - Glyphs

  • (Heal) Glyph Of Healing. Create a Healing shadow Sphere with an initial Heal, and a secondary heal after it expires to nearby allies.

  • Glyph Of Protection. Create a shadow Sphere to provide 33% Protection to allies within the area, and Aegis when it expires. 

  • Glyph Of Cleansing. Create a Shadow Sphere that gathers conditions from nearby allies. Upon expiring the sphere will become corrupted and disperse the absorbed conditions to nearby enemies.

  • Glyph Of Power. Create  shadow Sphere that provides Might & Fury while in the area of effect. Upon expiring all within the area will receive Quickness.

  • Glyph Of Regeneration. Create a Shadow Sphere to provide Regeneration, & Vigor for all nearby allies. Upon expiring all allies receive Alacrity.

  • (Elite) Glyph Of Shadow Flare. Create a shadow fire Sphere that inflicts Torment, & Blindness for all nearby enemies. Upon expiring enemies within the area effect will receive Weakness & Burn. 

 This would be something i would love to play if Thief received a healer Espec. 

So what are your hopes, and what playstyles would you prefer if Thief was to receive a Support Espec?Or, just let us know if a support Thief would be a bad idea.

Would love to hear everyones ideas.

-Edit 12/11/2020

There is so much potential for a support / Healer spec for Thief. Sharing some images to fill in some imagination

image

image

image

Thief could even receive Off hand Focus and perform Boon / Barrier support as mentioned in the thread.

image

<1

Comments

  • Hannelore.8153Hannelore.8153 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 10, 2020

    Yes, its something I've wanted for a long time. I've tried to make it work with the existing mechanics, but it just doesn't. Current Thief is at best, a buffer and stealth-resser with some projectile hate, but that's about it.

    Shadow Mender shows that darkness doesn't necessarily mean "selfish".

    In fact I think a support spec is our most likely target for EoD since we already have tank and DPS specs.

    Hannah | Daisuki[SUKI] Founder, Ehmry Bay, NA | 23 charas, 18k hours, 29k AP | ♀♥♀
    No need to be best, only good and kind.

  • Psycoprophet.8107Psycoprophet.8107 Member ✭✭✭✭

    To be honest no, due to thiefs design and theme I guarantee its support spec would end up underwhelming and almost completely unused. It would end up being a waste of a new spec. That's my opinion anyway.

  • Yasai.3549Yasai.3549 Member ✭✭✭✭

    No, only for one reason : A profession doesn't have to do it all.

    The whole Profession - traits - skills system we have in place right now is kinda the entire base problem with our PvE Raid and Fractal Meta tbh.
    I'm quite happy that Gw2 allows all Profession to play multiple roles, but when a single Profession, or a couple of Professions start "doing it all", it will start strangulating and choking out build diversity.

    Guardian is a good example of this : They can do good DPS, they can Support, and they are meta picks which are highly sought after.
    Mesmer is another one, having dominated the PvE scene for almost the entirety of Gw2's lifespan, and even with the heavy handed nerfs to SoI which clipped their wings a little, they are still a popular choice, and in some cases, unrivalled picks for Raids.

    With that in mind, I don't feel like people should start wanting or asking for their favourite Profession to start being able to "do it all" because it will end up with one of two results :
    1. It turns out pretty weak, and people wonder why the heck was a DPS focused Profession given a Support Espec for no reason
    2. It turns out pretty busted, everyone plays a single Profession, and then build diversity is just thrown out the window again.

    Let Thief just be Thief, let them deal damage, there is absolutely nothing wrong with a Profession just doing damage.
    No one has to multi-role in this game, and this game doesn't even have a set-in-stone role system in the first place.

    If I play a stupid build, I deserve to die.
    If I beat people on a stupid build, I deserve to get away with it.

  • lare.5129lare.5129 Member ✭✭✭✭

    no, no one want, but I anyway play it on spvp. It is fun.

    want solid balance ? - play chess.

  • lare.5129lare.5129 Member ✭✭✭✭

    ah, you write about next spec ? no, not needed.
    We already have way to make support thief

    want solid balance ? - play chess.

  • Solanum.6983Solanum.6983 Member ✭✭✭

    It's what I'm hoping for, stealth healing could be so fun.

  • Kageseigi.2150Kageseigi.2150 Member ✭✭✭
    edited December 10, 2020

    I just want an independent Thief that is a truly lethal threat in PvP/WvW.

    A Thief that can fight, survive, and kill against a single opponent of equal skill/experience (regardless of profession). Maybe not a 50/50 chance in a fair fight, but at least an equal shot if the Thief plays dirty and gets the first strike in.

    A Thief that is more than just a +1/Decap bot that relies on Shortbow mobility or Stealth.

    P.S. There used to be a fun "Ninja Nurse" build in WvW, but they gutted it. It was fun to watch an invisible Thief run around in the middle of an enemy zerg, reviving fallen allies... especially when the player had become very proficent at it.

  • Dadnir.5038Dadnir.5038 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 10, 2020

    My opinion:

    • Question of the title: I don't "want" a (dedicated) healer/support spec simply because DE provide such thing yet it nobody seem to feel drawn to this support.
    • Shadowcast: Feel like steal with healing buff on top, probably need more comprehensive work.
    • Scepter: skill#3 is supposed to change with each offhand weapon. Granted how the healing support of the core thief work I think focus would be a better weapon choice (at least we could make use of sword#2).
    • Glyph: This utility category is interesting due to it's ability to be "attuned", it feel like a work half done as it is presented here.

    NB.: Personally, I think thief need an e-spec with trait like weaver, giving him some easy vitality and barrier access.

  • kash.9213kash.9213 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 10, 2020

    I would like to have an E-spec that would have new and also change current skills to have directional, cone, and radius attacks that behave a little differently depending on how we move, pivot, or pan camera-look that can sort of chain together by momentum or timing. Sort of like how I can pull people a little differently once I connect scorpion wire sometimes with a little camera work, or how you would move to swing and fight in Skyrim/Elderscrolls.

    Northern Shiverpeaks [EL] & [SD]

  • I had an elite spec idea for this as well, though now defunct. But I don't see assassins as antithetical to support since GW1 assassins had a tanking build.

    I do worry that the more parts of a profession that gets dedicated to support (the F-skills, the weapon, the utilities. . .), the more they'll undertune the rest of the class. So I'd rather the support options be part of trait choices, for more build options.

    I think the PoF classes made out pretty well in terms of flexibility between dps and support. Just the ability to provide one of the high-value boons, like quickness or alacrity, would be enough. Maybe something like barrier (which is basically a type of heal) could help the thief's own sustain or be shared for group benefit.

    Assassin elite spec concept for Thief doesn't make sense anymore.

  • MatyrGustav.6210MatyrGustav.6210 Member ✭✭
    edited December 10, 2020

    @Dadnir.5038 said:
    My opinion:

    • Question of the title: I don't "want" a (dedicated) healer/support spec simply because DE provide such thing yet it nobody seem to feel drawn to this support.
    • Shadowcast: Feel like steal with healing buff on top, probably need more comprehensive work.
    • Scepter: skill#3 is supposed to change with each offhand weapon. Granted how the healing support of the core thief work I think focus would be a better weapon choice (at least we could make use of sword#2).
    • Glyph: This utility category is interesting due to it's ability to be "attuned", it feel like a work half done as it is presented here.

    Yes, everything was half done. Just a rough idea.

    NB.: Personally, I think thief need an e-spec with trait like weaver, giving him some easy vitality and barrier access.

    That would be interesting. If not a healer spec, a mage spec would be nice

  • Fueki.4753Fueki.4753 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 10, 2020

    I don't think Healing would fit Thieves.
    Offensive or Defensive support via unique boons, boon sharing and Barrier would be much better in my opinion.

  • Crab Fear.1624Crab Fear.1624 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Looking at their traitlines, it does not seem feasible.

    Soon™ ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°) nom nom nom🥔
    Fun Daredevil

  • @Crab Fear.1624 said:
    Looking at their traitlines, it does not seem feasible.

    Shadow Arts + Acrobatics look like solid choices. The New Espec would be all they would need tbh, the other two would be the type of offensive Thief you want to be aside from Support.

    You'll have customization.

  • MatyrGustav.6210MatyrGustav.6210 Member ✭✭
    edited December 11, 2020

    @Fueki.4753 said:
    I don't think Healing would fit Thieves.
    Offensive or Defensive support via unique boons, boon sharing and Barrier would be much better in my opinion.

    Thief already can heal a little with Shadow Refuge utility skill.

    • Create a pulsing refuge at the target area that heals allies and cloaks them in stealth.

    You can also improve it with the Merciful Ambush trait in the Shadow Arts spec.

    • When you apply stealth to an ally, they heal and revive over a short duration. Stealth yourself and your target when reviving an ally.

    Though i do like the Barrier idea as well.

  • Fueki.4753Fueki.4753 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @MatyrGustav.6210 said:

    @Fueki.4753 said:
    I don't think Healing would fit Thieves.
    Offensive or Defensive support via unique boons, boon sharing and Barrier would be much better in my opinion.

    Thief already can heal a little with Shadow Refuge utility skill.

    • Create a pulsing refuge at the target area that heals allies and cloaks them in stealth.

    You can also improve it with the Merciful Ambush trait in the Shadow Arts spec.

    • When you apply stealth to an ally, they heal and revive over a short duration. Stealth yourself and your target when reviving an ally.

    Though i do like the Barrier idea as well.

    Just because they can do it with one trait, doesn't mean it fits their image.

  • Psycoprophet.8107Psycoprophet.8107 Member ✭✭✭✭

    There is no honor among thieves, they endure and are experts in their own survival and if the death of their target benefits others than so shall it be but they care little for the support of others. A support thief is a contradiction.

  • draxynnic.3719draxynnic.3719 Member ✭✭✭✭

    As an observation: The utility skills look like wells to me, rather than glyphs. Wells usually have the effect of placing an AoE that harms enemies and/or supports allies. Glyphs can have a variety of effects, but are usually in the context of being on a profession or specialisation that has access to multiple modes, and the effect of the glyph changes depending on mode.

    In particular, the whole theme of providing one effect over the duration and then doing something else after it expires sounds a lot like Chronomancer wells.

    @Yasai.3549 said:
    No, only for one reason : A profession doesn't have to do it all.

    The whole Profession - traits - skills system we have in place right now is kinda the entire base problem with our PvE Raid and Fractal Meta tbh.
    I'm quite happy that Gw2 allows all Profession to play multiple roles, but when a single Profession, or a couple of Professions start "doing it all", it will start strangulating and choking out build diversity.

    Guardian is a good example of this : They can do good DPS, they can Support, and they are meta picks which are highly sought after.
    Mesmer is another one, having dominated the PvE scene for almost the entirety of Gw2's lifespan, and even with the heavy handed nerfs to SoI which clipped their wings a little, they are still a popular choice, and in some cases, unrivalled picks for Raids.

    With that in mind, I don't feel like people should start wanting or asking for their favourite Profession to start being able to "do it all" because it will end up with one of two results :
    1. It turns out pretty weak, and people wonder why the heck was a DPS focused Profession given a Support Espec for no reason
    2. It turns out pretty busted, everyone plays a single Profession, and then build diversity is just thrown out the window again.

    Let Thief just be Thief, let them deal damage, there is absolutely nothing wrong with a Profession just doing damage.
    No one has to multi-role in this game, and this game doesn't even have a set-in-stone role system in the first place.

    I'm inclined to disagree with this argument.

    One of the big things ArenaNet was talking about when making GW2 was that all professions would be able to assume all roles - the profession's theme just established how you did it. People fairly quickly recognised that 'support thief' was a bit of a meme, and then the support of other professions were boosted well over the original baseline when they decided that they would have dedicated healers after all, but that was always the core idea.

    You're pointing the finger at guardians and mesmers, but versatility is really what gives guardians, mesmers, revenants, and rangers their advantage in high-end PvE: if the profession can fill multiple roles, that increases the chance that at least one of the things the profession can do will be wanted for any given encounter. (Guardians and mesmers also have the specific advantage of being the only professions that can currently provide high uptime of party quickness, and mesmer and renegade have a similar hold on alacrity). If all your profession does is DPS, though, and your particular brand of DPS isn't what's optimal for the encounter, though, you're probably out. Which is exactly the problem thief has now - there are a couple of raid bosses where they can support with Detonate Plasma, but otherwise they're effectively limited to the bosses where staff daredevil or rifle deadeye actually work well. Having more things to bring to the table increases the chance that one of the things that they can bring to the table will be desirable.

    I also disagree that giving professions multiple roles decreases diversity. If anything, it increases it by making it more likely that any given profession can fit in. It's also worth noting that in many cases, the difference between the optimal team setup and various alternative setups which have the same roles filled is often fairly small.

    It's also worth noting that, apart from druid due to post-release nerfs, the 'support' specialisations have usually come with the potential to make a DPS-oriented version of the build as well. There currently isn't really a condi-oriented elite specialisation, so one could see support and improved condis come out of the same elite specialisation, although some PvPers will probably scream at the combination of condition pressure and stealth.

    @MatyrGustav.6210 said:

    @Crab Fear.1624 said:
    Looking at their traitlines, it does not seem feasible.

    Shadow Arts + Acrobatics look like solid choices. The New Espec would be all they would need tbh, the other two would be the type of offensive Thief you want to be aside from Support.

    You'll have customization.

    I'd imagine Trickery would also fit well, probably better than Acrobatics. Thrill of the Crime, Bountiful Theft (especially if the enemy has its own boons), extra initiative, and decreased Steal recharge would all help a support build, I'd imagine.

  • Yasai.3549Yasai.3549 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @draxynnic.3719 said:

    I also disagree that giving professions multiple roles decreases diversity. If anything, it increases it by making it more likely that any given profession can fit in. It's also worth noting that in many cases, the difference between the optimal team setup and various alternative setups which have the same roles filled is often fairly small.

    Go ahead and disgree, but just take a look at some youtube videos for clears, take a look at build sites, take a look in forums, and yu will find that alot of roles are filled by only a couple of Professions, and not because that they are the only Professions that can fill that role, but its because they are able to bring more to the table than others.

    What can a Support Thief bring to the table that others can't already do, and better?
    If the Espec can't bring as much as the others, it's automatically dumpster tier because Core Thief has very very few supportive capabilities.

    One can't just rely on Espec to "add" a role to the existing archetype.
    DD fitted well because Thief could already dodge around, avoiding damage, and hit and run.
    DD enhanced that playstyle.

    DE fits because Thief could already pop in and out of Stealth, hit and run, deal burst damage.
    DE enhances that playstyle.

    Thief at its core has few if no Supportive capabilities.
    Shoehorning an Espec in to essentially "add" a role will need the Espec to either be overloaded with utility to make up for the fact that Core Thief has no supportive capabilities or it will end up as a big meme and wasted Espec because it can Support, but not as well as others, resulting in people not wanting a half-baked "support" which may as well just DPS.

    If I play a stupid build, I deserve to die.
    If I beat people on a stupid build, I deserve to get away with it.

  • draxynnic.3719draxynnic.3719 Member ✭✭✭✭

    So the elite spec would need to bring something to the table.

    If you look at DPS roles, there's a wide range of builds that are considered 'optimal' for any given encounter, since most of the encounters have different situations which reward different types of dishing out damage. The mesmers and guardians you keep complaining about, however, mostly have their position because they are the main sources of quickness. So you're always going to see at least one of those as a source of quickness (plus DPS roles, if mesmer or guardian damage works well in the encounter). Mesmer gets a second bite at the support cherry because it's also one of the only two sources of alacrity - you're also going to get either mesmer or revenant to provide that. So DPS roles can be a range of professions, but you're always going to see some combination of firebrand, chrono, and/or renegade to cover those highly desired boons.

    Another pure DPS elite is just going to be another bite at the same DPS cherry that everyone can have a bite at. Unless you end up with something that outperforms as much as staff elementalist used to (in which case it will probably get nerfed like staff elementalist did), there might be a couple of encounters where the new elite spec might just edge out the existing DPS options, but it's probably not going to significantly boost thief's viability in high-end instanced PvE in general. Now if, hypothetically, it was able to compete in the quickness and/or alacrity space? Then it's got less competition, and a higher chance in any given instance that it will be the optimal choice for that role... or at least good enough that groups that aren't concerned about getting the absolute best setup would at least consider it as an alternative to a chrono or firebrand/renegade.

    One consideration with the OP's specific proposal in this space is that receiving the boon when an AoE arrives means that it will have the same characteristics as chronomancer support, in that allies need to remain within an AoE to receive the benefit. But that's just an issue with the specific implementation proposed, not the general idea.

  • Psycoprophet.8107Psycoprophet.8107 Member ✭✭✭✭

    If the new spec gave support to its teammates in a way that adds poison to their attacks or mobility to their kits than that form of support would fit thief's style lol

  • MatyrGustav.6210MatyrGustav.6210 Member ✭✭
    edited December 12, 2020

    @Psycoprophet.8107 said:
    There is no honor among thieves, they endure and are experts in their own survival and if the death of their target benefits others than so shall it be but they care little for the support of others. A support thief is a contradiction.

    Not necessarily. One can support another to benefit their own self interest. A Thief may use others as a "weapon" to fulfill a task, so why not provide enhancements to said "Weapons". There are many ways to see reasoning for a thief utilizing support.

    The other thing is that Thief already has some supporty skills, so its not farfetched lol

  • @draxynnic.3719 said:
    As an observation: The utility skills look like wells to me, rather than glyphs. Wells usually have the effect of placing an AoE that harms enemies and/or supports allies. Glyphs can have a variety of effects, but are usually in the context of being on a profession or specialisation that has access to multiple modes, and the effect of the glyph changes depending on mode.

    In particular, the whole theme of providing one effect over the duration and then doing something else after it expires sounds a lot like Chronomancer wells.

    Yes I initially thought if them as wells, but i didn't like that it had to be cast at your feet. It could also work as wells, and have a trait that improves casting times and allows for Ground Target. If they were Glyphs the steal function can also add different effects based on what you steal from for the attunments maybe.

    .

  • MatyrGustav.6210MatyrGustav.6210 Member ✭✭
    edited December 12, 2020

    @Yasai.3549 said:

    @draxynnic.3719 said:

    I also disagree that giving professions multiple roles decreases diversity. If anything, it increases it by making it more likely that any given profession can fit in. It's also worth noting that in many cases, the difference between the optimal team setup and various alternative setups which have the same roles filled is often fairly small.

    Go ahead and disgree, but just take a look at some youtube videos for clears, take a look at build sites, take a look in forums, and yu will find that alot of roles are filled by only a couple of Professions, and not because that they are the only Professions that can fill that role, but its because they are able to bring more to the table than others.

    I hear what you're saying, but its not what Anet stated, and maybe Thief is just one of the classes with every role.

    What can a Support Thief bring to the table that others can't already do, and better?
    If the Espec can't bring as much as the others, it's automatically dumpster tier because Core Thief has very very few supportive capabilities.

    Maybe

    • Ressurection Master
    • While in stealth they can produce an Area aura of healing
    • Provide Poison to all allied attacks
    • Ranged Healing Glyphs with attunments governed by what you steal from
    • Class function that steals shadow essence to utilize for a class function ability once you accumulated enough. Abilities like instant Rez, or large Healing well.
    • Steal Boons
      Just thought of these quickly, but there are so many different possibilities.

    One can't just rely on Espec to "add" a role to the existing archetype.
    DD fitted well because Thief could already dodge around, avoiding damage, and hit and run.
    DD enhanced that playstyle.

    DE fits because Thief could already pop in and out of Stealth, hit and run, deal burst damage.
    DE enhances that playstyle.

    Thief at its core has few if no Supportive capabilities.
    Shoehorning an Espec in to essentially "add" a role will need the Espec to either be overloaded with utility to make up for the fact that Core Thief has no supportive capabilities or it will end up as a big meme and wasted Espec because it can Support, but not as well as others, resulting in people not wanting a half-baked "support" which may as well just DPS.

    That's the beauty of it, in Gw2 if you're not supporting, then you are doing Dps. If you equip all the Espec has to offer, then youll be the full support spec that Anet envisioned. Youll have Shadow Arts, and other traitlines / abilities to work with. Shadow refuge is an ability to further identify you as a support spec. Also a lot of Thief abilities help them survive, and you can stealth an ally to provide healing to them while they are invisible in general. Its not a shoehorn situation.

    Also, providing a full support spec on a mainly Dps class is a good thing, since youll have control on how much support you want for your character. You can spec to be full dps and just choose which of the new support skills you want to use that just benefits you, and your survival.

  • Yasai.3549Yasai.3549 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Psycoprophet.8107 said:
    If the new spec gave support to its teammates in a way that adds poison to their attacks or mobility to their kits than that form of support would fit thief's style lol

    They already have Venom share though?
    If they double down on it, cool, but that's just gonna be a weaker version of Renegade which can give all allies Siphon as well as Bleed on Hit in addition to Alacrity.

    Unless yu want Thief to be able to pulse Alacrity/Quickness to allies too?
    At that point the Espec is gonna be the thing carrying the build just as much as Firebrand and Renegade carries their builds, and honestly we need less of those sort of Especs in the game.

    And say, all these happens : Can it beat Renegade/Firebrand in terms of DPS?
    If it can't, what's gonna happen to it?

    And not to ignore the competitive side of the game : such an overloaded Espec will essentially become Herald 2.0 where a "Support" Espec is flipped on its head to provide offensive support to themselves.
    Then cue the nerfs and people crying.

    If I play a stupid build, I deserve to die.
    If I beat people on a stupid build, I deserve to get away with it.

  • @MatyrGustav.6210 said:

    • While in stealth they can produce an Area aura of healing

    I don't want anymore "While in Stealth" traits...

    At least not while you can't stay in Stealth for more than 2 seconds without getting Revealed (WvW) or cannot contest points while in Stealth (PvP).

    There's a reason I play an evasive non-Stealth Thief with no Shadow Arts. Because half of the time, the entire traitline is rendered useless because of the rules/situations.

    Choosing Shadow Arts is the equivalent of sending a soldier into battle with a fully stocked first aid kit, but without any grenades or extra ammunition.

    Nobody else has to deal with such foolishness.

  • @Kageseigi.2150 said:

    @MatyrGustav.6210 said:

    • While in stealth they can produce an Area aura of healing

    I don't want anymore "While in Stealth" traits...

    At least not while you can't stay in Stealth for more than 2 seconds without getting Revealed (WvW) or cannot contest points while in Stealth (PvP).

    There's a reason I play an evasive non-Stealth Thief with no Shadow Arts. Because half of the time, the entire traitline is rendered useless because of the rules/situations.

    Choosing Shadow Arts is the equivalent of sending a soldier into battle with a fully stocked first aid kit, but without any grenades or extra ammunition.

    Nobody else has to deal with such foolishness.

    I see your point, thats why i hope if Thief has a support Espec it doesn't have stealth since Core Thief has it.

    But for the record, I do like "While in stealth traits" . I love Regenerating health while in stealth and reappearing with full health. Shadow arts is the main reason i play Thief

  • Infusion.7149Infusion.7149 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 12, 2020

    Would rather thieves get quickness sharing on Bountiful Theft in PvE (make competitive mode duration 1/2 second or something) so that it isn't reliant on Detonate Plasma as much. When paired with Thrill of the Crime and some boon duration (or fractal potions) it'd make for okay boon coverage. Since some people that raid already have gear for boon thief it is probably the best path forward rather than healing.

    Unless PvE quickness is hit in efficacy , it's better to have multiple potential sources of quickness so even if isn't meta you have options.

    Healing doesn't make much sense thematically...

    Right now you have an evasive spec like acro (daredevil) , a stealthy spec like shadow arts (deadeye) , but not really strong condi (bleed/poison probably not burn/ confusion/torment ... analogous to deadly arts) or boons (right now it's mainly trickery)

    So I'd look into traits that augment boons in some way maybe giving up stealth entirely if condi instead because nobody wants to play against a stealth condi build... "condi damage increased while revealed" , pistols apply more bleeding while closer, or "dual attacks do more poison" . You're looking at pistols and daggers mainly right now if we're talking about PvE condi.

    Stealth traits are pretty useless in PvE except for skips and make competitive modes harder to balance.

  • Dadnir.5038Dadnir.5038 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Yasai.3549 said:
    What can a Support Thief bring to the table that others can't already do, and better?
    If the Espec can't bring as much as the others, it's automatically dumpster tier because Core Thief has very very few supportive capabilities.

    One can't just rely on Espec to "add" a role to the existing archetype.
    DD fitted well because Thief could already dodge around, avoiding damage, and hit and run.
    DD enhanced that playstyle.

    DE fits because Thief could already pop in and out of Stealth, hit and run, deal burst damage.
    DE enhances that playstyle.

    You've got an incomplete view of the DE.
    DE fit because thief could already steal boons and spread those stealed boons to their allies (which in essence is a form of support). If you didn't know, DE is able to spread it's stolen skill effects to up to 10 allies as well as giving those allies fury and might. Which is in line with the trickery line that allow you to share fury, might, swiftness, vigor and up to 3 stolen boons to up to 5 allies.

    Thief at its core has few if no Supportive capabilities.

    Thief at it's core is so full of support that it could explode at any moment. If ANet really want to make a support e-spec for the thief, the thief offer plenty of material to expand on. Objectively, using shadow to shield it's allies (just like the scourge use life force to shield it's allies) wouldn't be a surprising addition. Just imagine a trait that grant regen to 5 allies on steal + a trait that grant barrier when you grant stealth, coupled with shadow savior or leeching venom within the shadow traitline, you'd probably end up with a strong healer with a bit of boon support and plenty of utilities options (projectile defense, portal, stealth, Hard CC share).

    And that's just a rushed idea just to point out that saying "few if no supportive capabilities" is totally wrong. Personally, I do think DE was enough of a support e-spec but if ANet choose to add healing support (instead of the boon support from DE) onto another e-spec, I don't think it would be wrong or out of the thief's capability.

    The thief is not an "assassin", it's before anything else a profession that "steal". The e-specs are defined by how and what the choose to steal before anything else. DD focus on stealing endurance to support an accrobatic gameplay while DE steal boons to enhance himself or spread to it's allies. The core thief steal life (litterally), light (blind), boons, mouvement (cripple, chill, immob), endurance (weakness), defense (vulnerability), focus (daze)... etc. That's how one need to look at the "thief". I wouldn't be suprised to see the thief able to steal barrier (litterally), "shadows" (reveal) or steal momentum (slow) because, yes, it would fit with it's main thematic: stealing.

  • draxynnic.3719draxynnic.3719 Member ✭✭✭✭

    On the thematic view:

    Go back to what ArenaNet was saying about thief around release, and there's really nothing to say that a thief must be selfish. Obviously, the name itself suggests a selfish criminal, but they've said that the profession covers just about everyone who might want to use stealth and subterfuge (outside of mesmers, who are more heavily magical, and rangers, who are more in tune with nature) - a "thief" could, for instance, be a scout, a spy, a commando, or something along those lines which employs their skills for the benefit of a larger organisation. The term 'thief' is used because that's a broad term that's applied to them by those who don't like them: "I'm a scout/spy/agent/whatever." "Pffft. You're a THIEF."

    In this context, a more support-oriented/healer form would make sense. If you're doing a covert operation, you might well want someone along who can cover that role. You might not want to bring a guardian, elementalist, or revenant along to provide healing, as they lack their own stealth and tend to be a bit flashy - sure, there are ways of getting around these problems, but that doesn't mean the mission might not be easier if you didn't have to. Same for druids - they have some stealth, but not a lot, and Celestial Avatar heals aren't exactly subtle. A scrapper medic might do the job, but if you don't have access to that sort of technology, but can figure out an enhanced form of shadow magic that could serve the purpose, that's one more tool in your armoury.

  • In answer to the OP, no.

  • Jugglemonkey.8741Jugglemonkey.8741 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I've always seen my teammates as meat shields; necessary to bring along, but expendable if it means getting what we came for. A support thief wouldn't make a lot of sense to me personally.

    Critical Kit, Deadeye.
    “If you find yourself in a fair fight, your tactics suck.” - John Steinbeck

  • @MatyrGustav.6210 said:
    But for the record, I do like "While in stealth traits" . I love Regenerating health while in stealth and reappearing with full health. Shadow arts is the main reason i play Thief

    I'm not against the concept of those traits, just the practical execution.

    Stealth was much more effective in WvW before mounts and AI that could Reveal you after a couple of seconds.

    The problem with such traits in PvP is that in the time it takes me to heal up in Stealth, the enemy has already captured the point even though I was standing on it. I would have done much better to just heal up by running away to the next point (exiting combat to heal) than to stay engaged with the same enemy who has had time for skills to cooldown and now has full control over the point.

    It's really time for ANet to change the rules. Allow a 3-second grace period for a Thief to contest a point while in Stealth. Even if a Thief can't actually capture a point while in Stealth, they should at least be able to contest/defend it.

  • Fueki.4753Fueki.4753 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 12, 2020

    @Kageseigi.2150 said:
    It's really time for ANet to change the rules. Allow a 3-second grace period for a Thief to contest a point while in Stealth. Even if a Thief can't actually capture a point while in Stealth, they should at least be able to contest/defend it.

    Do we also get a three second grace period still being able to see the Thief after entering stealth?
    Stealth already has more than enough upsides and Thieves already are shoe-horned too much into that mechanic.
    It doesn't need to get any stronger.

  • @Fueki.4753 said:
    It doesn't need to get any stronger.

    What is strong about Stealth in a PvP match?

  • Fueki.4753Fueki.4753 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 12, 2020

    @Kageseigi.2150 said:
    What is strong about Stealth in a PvP match?

    Is this a rhetorical question?

    If, for some inexplicable reason, it is not:
    The fact that you can't just hit someone seemingly out of nowhere because Stealth literally makes players invisible without any way of detection?
    The fact that people safely can run away, because they literally can't be seen in Stealth?
    And then Thieves have all the Shadow Arts bonuses that can be added to Stealth.

  • @Fueki.4753 said:

    @Kageseigi.2150 said:
    What is strong about Stealth in a PvP match?

    Is this a rhetorical question?

    Not rhetorical at all.

    1. A Thief in Stealth cannot fight
    2. A Thief in Stealth cannot contest a point

    The fact that you can't just hit someone seemingly out of nowhere because Stealth literally makes players invisible without any way of detection?

    A Thief gets one strike out of Stealth. That's it. Aegis cancels that out. Unless it's some insane glass build against some insane glass build, one strike barely makes a dent. It's good against an AFKer, but what isn't? Two strikes from the opponent downs the Thief.

    Besides, there are defenses against Stealth. Constant auto-attacks do work. So does AoE. Marks, Wells, Traps... they all provide an initial defense, and they are extremely effective at countering a possible Stealth ambush.

    The fact that people safely can run away, because they literally can't be seen in Stealth?

    Infiltrator's Arrow and Shadowstep are/were superior skills to escape. Stealth is an escape tool, but it's definitely not "safe." There are legions of dead Thieves who took their final breaths while invisible.

    Besides, like I said, a Thief can't fight or contest a point in Stealth. If you're using it as an escape tool, you've already lost. The "I can't kill a Thief" is an anti-Thief whine. Is that the point of the game? To kill your opponent? If that's the case, then NOBODY has any room to complain more than Thieves.

    And then Thieves have all the Shadow Arts bonuses that can be added to Stealth.

    Yes, bonuses that require Stealth. Again, every second a Thief is in Stealth is a second surrendered to the enemy. If you're in Stealth, you've either lost or you're in the process of losing.

    Stealth is great for repositioning or hiding or setting up an initial strike. That's it. I'd much prefer to have more evades or invulnerabilties or natural mitigation.

    Besides, to take Shadow Arts, you have to give up another traitline that is more combat oriented... that you can actually use 100% of a match, whether in Stealth or not. In other words, you can play to hope to win a fight instead of resigning yourself to already losing it.

    Shadow Arts is better than it used to be for combat, but it's still not good. If they put Hidden Killer and Revealed Training in it, then it may be a different story. If there was a trait to daze or Immobilze or even increase the cooldown on enemy skills on every Stealth Attack... something that can be used to control the enemy when not actually in Stealth, then it would be more balanced as a combat line.

    Even a trait that would grant a few initiative or endurance on a successful Stealth Attack... or a trait that would double initiative or endurance regeneration while Revealed. Those would make Stealth a lot more useful for combat. It would promote tactical Stealth use, and would remove the incentive for camping in Stealth (if such a thing even exists in today's game).

  • @Fueki.4753 said:
    The fact that you can't just hit someone seemingly out of nowhere because Stealth literally makes players invisible without any way of detection?
    The fact that people safely can run away, because they literally can't be seen in Stealth?

    You are aware of course that stealth isn't invulnerability? Now I can't pretend to know what you faced, and you can't, of course, be sure to hit someone in stealth (targeted skills of course won't work either unless channelled before stealth applied). But as mentioned above - cleaving or AoE etc is a start. As is counting then dodge/evade to predict when that attack is coming. I'm not trivialising your point as if stealth isn't a great advantage - and the above are not a science so not necessarily going to work as it depends on opposition's style/build - but it is possible to dodge stealth attacks.

  • draxynnic.3719draxynnic.3719 Member ✭✭✭✭

    In all honesty, it kinda goes both ways. Sure, it's not invulnerability, but when combined with the mobility that thief has, it often might as well be. Spamming autoattacks (but they pretty much have to be melee attacks, hitting a stealthed enemy with enough ranged attacks to matter is pretty much a one-in-a-million even if you know roughly where they are) and area effects might let you get lucky occasionally, but the fact remains that thief has a LOT more ability to escape and reset than any other profession. And while, again, you can use autoattacks and area attacks to make it harder for a stealthed thief to get in and deliver their attacks, this often ends up wasting cooldowns on air while a good thief player can usually observe what you're doing and plan a way in. About the only thing that can really reliably stop a stealthed thief is traps and the like. And that won't help if you've got that glowing orange ball over your head: engaging, building Malice, disengaging, and then re-engaging with a full Malice Death's Judgement is a common Deadeye trick, and there's virtually nothing the victim can do about it short of running for the hills, or at least blocking LOS from likely attack locations (which can be easier said than done).

    And in a team fight, stealthing has an additional effect of breaking target lock - even a one-second stealth can ruin a focus fire that would have destroyed any target without stealth.

    What we're seeing when it comes to the different view of stealth between thief mains (and, to a lesser extent, mains of other professions who have good access to stealth, such as rangers, mesmers, and engineers) is negativity bias in action. People who regularly play stealth builds remember the times they stealthed and died anyway. People who don't remember the times when they went up against a stealth build that seemed virtually untouchable and felt like there was nothing they could do to fight back.

  • Fueki.4753Fueki.4753 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 13, 2020

    @Chips.7968 said:
    You are aware of course that stealth isn't invulnerability? Now I can't pretend to know what you faced, and you can't, of course, be sure to hit someone in stealth (targeted skills of course won't work either unless channelled before stealth applied). But as mentioned above - cleaving or AoE etc is a start. As is counting then dodge/evade to predict when that attack is coming. I'm not trivialising your point as if stealth isn't a great advantage - and the above are not a science so not necessarily going to work as it depends on opposition's style/build - but it is possible to dodge stealth attacks.

    So you suggest wasting all the AoEs and cleaves available on potshots, because the enemy team's Thief might be around you capping a point?
    Because that definitely sounds like a bad idea to me.

  • @Fueki.4753 said:
    So you suggest wasting all the AoEs and cleaves available on potshots, because the enemy team's Thief might be around you capping a point?

    If you're sitting on a point, and a Thief isn't visibly also on the point, what does it matter?

    If a Thief is sitting in Stealth while you're capping a point, and you are on a profession that is normally not glass, then a decent Thief is likely going to wait for you to leave so he can decap quickly. If you are just sitting on point for defense, then a good Thief isnt going to attack you because he has better things to do.

    Now, if you actually have reason to suspect a Thief is present (or he's already shown himself) then using some skills (traps, etc.) Is not wasting cooldowns. Auto-attacking costs absolutely nothing, and is effective if the Thief gets close.

    Then again, if you do nothing to defend against a Stealth Attack, so what? It's not going to kill you. You've still got all of your skills off cooldown. And now, the Thief is visible for counter-attack.

    Thieves are not designed to be fighters in this game. They are designed to annoy and frustrate. If you knock them down to 20% health, and they disappear, so what? Just sit on point long enough to secure it, then continue to rotate.

    The purpose of Conquest is to secure points, not to kill. Thieves cannot secure points or kill independently. They can only steal points that are unsecure. The purpose of the Thief is to stop the bleeding, that is all.

    The old sports saying "take what the defense gives you" is literally the philosophy of the Thief. Most professions can impose their will on the battlefield. Not the Thief. The Thief must manipulate the will of others. It is the digital manifestation of the principles of Ju and Aiki. If a Thief can get you to chase him off point, he has won. If he makes you frustrated because you can't see him or kill him, he has achieved his goal. It's a pathetic goal, but it's all a Thief has... which is what I want to change.

  • Opopanax.1803Opopanax.1803 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 13, 2020

    I would rather see a Sabatour type e-spec. Something like an explosives kit on F1 that you can toggle between, sort of like engineer. Melee focused, aoe/point denial.
    Maybe bring back some trap type skills with circular radii, and other bomber/sabatour type skills. I'd love to see it be melee focused and give base Vitality and Toughness to be played as more of a melee class that cant be 1 shot so easily; would maybe have to reduce some of the evasiveness of stealth if it got a lot of Vit and Tough.

    A healing class could be interesting, I just dont see a theme that would work well... shadow medic? Stealth medic? Not quite sure I can come up with something that feels like a cohesive support theme.

  • MatyrGustav.6210MatyrGustav.6210 Member ✭✭
    edited December 13, 2020

    @Opopanax.1803 said:
    I would rather see a Sabatour type e-spec. Something like an explosives kit on F1 that you can toggle between, sort of like engineer. Melee focused, aoe/point denial.
    Maybe bring back some trap type skills with circular radii, and other bomber/sabatour type skills. I'd love to see it be melee focused and give base Vitality and Toughness to be played as more of a melee class that cant be 1 shot so easily; would maybe have to reduce some of the evasiveness of stealth if it got a lot of Vit and Tough.

    A healing class could be interesting, I just dont see a theme that would work well... shadow medic? Stealth medic? Not quite sure I can come up with something that feels like a cohesive support theme.

    I play healer in most games i play, and when I do, I get targeted first. So, it naturally made me gravitate toward stealth.

    Ill name a few Shadow Medics from games that Ive played.

    • The Game Paladins has a character called Seris thats mainly a healer and has an ability called Shadow Travel for invisible when she gets targeted

    • Star Wars The Old Republic have actual Stealth Medic classes called Smuggler/Scoundrel & Imperial Agent/Operative. Both with actual stealth mechanics for healing.

    • The Elder Scrolls Online currently has the Nightblade class with the Shadow & Siphoning skill lines to provide healing and support to your party. The Nightblade class has invisibility as well, and to further your Healing you can equip a healing staff.

    • World Of Warcraft has the Druid/Restoration class with the Prowl ability that turns them into a cat for stealth. They can further their stealth by choosing the Night Elf race for in combat stealth.

    Just to name a few.

    I think that a healer with access to stealth is the best thing ever. Stealth is the best mechanic a healer has, so they can reach thier targets to support them. Its a playstyle that exists, and very effective

  • Infusion.7149Infusion.7149 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 13, 2020

    I think having yet another class compete for a spot in the "healer" role is pretty pointless. It's been proven boon thief in encounters where it is usable WILL be taken.

    Look at all the "healer" roles:

    • Heal firebrand (a staple in fractals, strikes, WvW) ... mace is a heal weapon by definition , staff has heals, and heals on symbols make all weapons into heal weapons
    • Heal druid (a staple in raids and strikes , decap druid is a thing in PVP) ... Celestial Avatar is not reliant on weapon , staff is a heal weapon
    • Heal scourge (a carry class in PVE , cele scourge has seen use in WVW and it has been meta in PVP previously) ... barriers not reliant on weapons whatsoever
    • Heal tempest (a staple in WVW and PVP to an extent , less common for PVE) ... with dagger mainhand or staff
    • Heal scrapper (a staple in WVW , quite rare for PVE) ... with med kit
    • Heal Renegade (mostly niche uses regardless of mode) ... with staff
    • Meme "heal" chrono ... minstrel chrono is more for tanking in PVE but in WVW sometimes is used with shatters (Restorative Illusions) , wells (All's Well That Ends Well), and mantras (Restorative Mantras) for heal procs --- there's a reason why people ran chrono + druid in the past
    • "Heal" tactic spellbreaker/ core warriors (mostly WVW now that PVP variant is nerfed) ... much more narrow due to lack of a real healing weapon , you're more or less reliant on the heals from bursts and shouts

    To top that off you want to make a stealth healer, which is absolutely useless in PVE most of the time and likely will make WVW/PVP even more of a nightmare to balance.

    Having party quickness in the Trickery line (particularly procced off of steal) however, will mean three things:

    • easy acceptance by the general playerbase since boon thief is already a thing
    • no real re-gearing for existing players of boon thief
    • a real reason to bring a thief in any instance where healing demands aren't particularly high

    In addition, it is incredibly easy to balance this because you can just have a base 8+ second party quickness in PVE (Detonate Plasma is 4s but with all boons basically ; Improvisation allows double use of stolen skills but not the steal skill) but only 0.25 , 0.5 , or some arbitrary low number in competitive modes.

  • @Fueki.4753 said:

    @Chips.7968 said:
    You are aware of course that stealth isn't invulnerability? Now I can't pretend to know what you faced, and you can't, of course, be sure to hit someone in stealth (targeted skills of course won't work either unless channelled before stealth applied). But as mentioned above - cleaving or AoE etc is a start. As is counting then dodge/evade to predict when that attack is coming. I'm not trivialising your point as if stealth isn't a great advantage - and the above are not a science so not necessarily going to work as it depends on opposition's style/build - but it is possible to dodge stealth attacks.

    So you suggest wasting all the AoEs and cleaves available on potshots, because the enemy team's Thief might be around you capping a point?
    Because that definitely sounds like a bad idea to me.

    Off topic but ill say my peace.

    Basically you have options and can still hit a stealthed player, what you use is up to you. Play any class with Aoe skills and Spam them. I used Tempest against Thieves, and of course uee any skills with your best judgment, because yes if you use all cooldowns and miss, you've just given the thief the upper hand.

    Also on the Stealth Topic. Thieves need it since they have naturally reduced health. If a Thief uses stealth, that means they couldn't kill you, so how is that strong? Thieves are Escape artists, escaping isnt strong. They have the ability to retreat and live to fight another day.

    Yes trying to catch a thief is annoying lol, but its balanced.

  • MatyrGustav.6210MatyrGustav.6210 Member ✭✭
    edited December 13, 2020

    @Infusion.7149 said:
    I think having yet another class compete for a spot in the "healer" role is pretty pointless. It's been proven boon thief in encounters where it is usable WILL be taken.

    Look at all the "healer" roles:

    • Heal firebrand (a staple in fractals, strikes, WvW) ... mace is a heal weapon by definition , staff has heals, and heals on symbols make all weapons into heal weapons
    • Heal druid (a staple in raids and strikes , decap druid is a thing in PVP) ... Celestial Avatar is not reliant on weapon , staff is a heal weapon
    • Heal scourge (a carry class in PVE , cele scourge has seen use in WVW and it has been meta in PVP previously) ... barriers not reliant on weapons whatsoever
    • Heal tempest (a staple in WVW and PVP to an extent , less common for PVE) ... with dagger mainhand or staff
    • Heal scrapper (a staple in WVW , quite rare for PVE) ... with med kit
    • Heal Renegade (mostly niche uses regardless of mode) ... with staff
    • Meme "heal" chrono ... minstrel chrono is more for tanking in PVE but in WVW sometimes is used with shatters (Restorative Illusions) , wells (All's Well That Ends Well), and mantras (Restorative Mantras) for heal procs --- there's a reason why people ran chrono + druid in the past
    • "Heal" tactic spellbreaker/ core warriors (mostly WVW now that PVP variant is nerfed) ... much more narrow due to lack of a real healing weapon , you're more or less reliant on the heals from bursts and shouts

    To top that off you want to make a stealth healer, which is absolutely useless in PVE most of the time and likely will make WVW/PVP even more of a nightmare to balance.

    Having party quickness in the Trickery line (particularly procced off of steal) however, will mean three things:

    • easy acceptance by the general playerbase since boon thief is already a thing
    • no real re-gearing for existing players of boon thief
    • a real reason to bring a thief in any instance where healing demands aren't particularly high

    In addition, it is incredibly easy to balance this because you can just have a base 8+ second party quickness in PVE (Detonate Plasma is 4s but with all boons basically ; Improvisation allows double use of stolen skills but not the steal skill) but only 0.25 , 0.5 , or some arbitrary low number in competitive modes.

    One thing you're missing . You're basing your argument off of what we have as current specs. I hope you do realize your argument should be based off the other 8 upcoming EOD specs, since as we know out of the 9 new upcoming EOD specs we will recieve more support Especs. What that further means is the support specs that you listed in your post will most likely not receive another support spec, which means most likely the classes that currently do not have a support Espec has a very high chance to get one. "Points to Thief" .

    And yes, i see Thief being the most unique healer or support if they get a Support Espec, and stealth is far from useless in Pve since you can pop stealth just to use the out of Stealth strike.

    Your argument is coming from a place that shows you're missing points of view of the game and/or just Thief

  • Infusion.7149Infusion.7149 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 13, 2020

    @MatyrGustav.6210 said:
    One thing you're missing . You're basing your argument off of what we have as current specs. I hope you do realize your argument should be based off the other 8 upcoming EOD specs, since as we know out of the 9 new upcoming EOD specs we will recieve more support Especs. What that further means is the support specs that you listed in your post will most likely not receive another support spec, which means most likely the classes that currently do not have a support Espec has a very high chance to get one. "Points to Thief" .

    And yes, i see Thief being the most unique healer or support if they get a Support Espec, and stealth is far from useless in Pve since you can pop stealth just to use the out of Stealth strike.

    Your argument is coming from a place that shows you're missing points of view of the game and/or just Thief

    Unless new boons are made, it is irrelevant and existing content will remain unchanged for the most part. I've seen so many speculative threads it is ridiculous. Also all elite specs are supposed to have a tradeoff. It is highly unlikely aegis will be given to thieves and the same goes for alacrity and maybe even protection. Unless the alacrity is outright overpowered in relation to chrono or renegade (whether it is ease of application, required boon duration, range, etc) , it is not going to replace either. If it is stronger than both specs (i.e. massive amounts of role compression) then the quickness and/or damage output (especially any burst / spike damage) will likely need to be kept in check, see chronos post nerf.

    In your proposal your suggested buff is "increase healing potency" which is unlikely to gain traction in that even firebrands run axe typically over mace. It is far better to have a condi based spec which gives up extended stealth durations for example (the tradeoff being lower stealth duration). There's been cases in which holos are brought solely for Pinpoint Distribution , a buff to condi damage. Likewise any spec that relies on conditions on allies is also going to have significant problems because the amount of situations that would be strong is low and in those cases people would opt for the 5s cooldown (PVE) condition to boon of scourge or scrapper / tempest clears (see WvW). Tying the main (auto) damage plus second attack skill (typically the lowest initiative) to torment is also an exercise in futility , see condi scourges in most situations as well as condi revs. I'd much rather it be poison in some form both due to theme and the deadly arts traitline synergies.

    Also short of backstab, stealth attacks aren't that amazing for PVE because you need to consume resources in order to attain stealth whether it is utility skills or initiative.
    Backstab coefficient from behind / flanking: 2.4
    Backstab coefficient from front: 1.2

    Tactical strike coefficient: 1.0
    Hook Strike coefficient : 0.65

    Even if there's new support specs there is going to be massive inertia against them because the majority of the playerbase will not have been doing instanced content and the majority of those that are not doing raids will not have legendary armor to equip any new specs immediately.

    For example, how would your proposed spec fare in Sunqua Peak , Cairn, Twin Largos, or other places where thieves aren't particularly wanted currently? A condi spec would work there ; a minor change to trickery (or even a new trait in the new spec that gives quickness via venoms which are mostly condi or CC related) could make such a spec be a viable alternative to condi boon chrono or condi quickbrand. If it doesn't excel in a situation where thieves are not a highly demanded pick, then it probably isn't going to change the current state of affairs.

  • MatyrGustav.6210MatyrGustav.6210 Member ✭✭
    edited December 14, 2020

    @Infusion.7149 said:

    @MatyrGustav.6210 said:
    One thing you're missing . You're basing your argument off of what we have as current specs. I hope you do realize your argument should be based off the other 8 upcoming EOD specs, since as we know out of the 9 new upcoming EOD specs we will recieve more support Especs. What that further means is the support specs that you listed in your post will most likely not receive another support spec, which means most likely the classes that currently do not have a support Espec has a very high chance to get one. "Points to Thief" .

    And yes, i see Thief being the most unique healer or support if they get a Support Espec, and stealth is far from useless in Pve since you can pop stealth just to use the out of Stealth strike.

    Your argument is coming from a place that shows you're missing points of view of the game and/or just Thief

    Unless new boons are made, it is irrelevant and existing content will remain unchanged for the most part. I've seen so many speculative threads it is ridiculous. Also all elite specs are supposed to have a tradeoff. It is highly unlikely aegis will be given to thieves and the same goes for alacrity and maybe even protection. Unless the alacrity is outright overpowered in relation to chrono or renegade (whether it is ease of application, required boon duration, range, etc) , it is not going to replace either. If it is stronger than both specs (i.e. massive amounts of role compression) then the quickness and/or damage output (especially any burst / spike damage) will likely need to be kept in check, see chronos post nerf.

    In your proposal your suggested buff is "increase healing potency" which is unlikely to gain traction in that even firebrands run axe typically over mace. It is far better to have a condi based spec which gives up extended stealth durations for example (the tradeoff being lower stealth duration). There's been cases in which holos are brought solely for Pinpoint Distribution , a buff to condi damage. Likewise any spec that relies on conditions on allies is also going to have significant problems because the amount of situations that would be strong is low and in those cases people would opt for the 5s cooldown (PVE) condition to boon of scourge or scrapper / tempest clears (see WvW). Tying the main (auto) damage plus second attack skill (typically the lowest initiative) to torment is also an exercise in futility , see condi scourges in most situations as well as condi revs. I'd much rather it be poison in some form both due to theme and the deadly arts traitline synergies.

    Also short of backstab, stealth attacks aren't that amazing for PVE because you need to consume resources in order to attain stealth whether it is utility skills or initiative.
    Backstab coefficient from behind / flanking: 2.4
    Backstab coefficient from front: 1.2

    Tactical strike coefficient: 1.0
    Hook Strike coefficient : 0.65

    Stealth in PvE works for me, and its what the Thief can do. I like using the out of stealth pistol burst to apply 5x Bleeding, and also stealth keeps me alive to regenerate health and / or rez downed teammates without being attacked.

    Even if there's new support specs there is going to be massive inertia against them because the majority of the playerbase will not have been doing instanced content and the majority of those that are not doing raids will not have legendary armor to equip any new specs immediately.

    The game is designed to to start raids without legendary gear. Its ok.

    For example, how would your proposed spec fare in Sunqua Peak , Cairn, Twin Largos, or other places where thieves aren't particularly wanted currently? A condi spec would work there ; a minor change to trickery (or even a new trait in the new spec that gives quickness via venoms which are mostly condi or CC related) could make such a spec be a viable alternative to condi boon chrono or condi quickbrand. If it doesn't excel in a situation where thieves are not a highly demanded pick, then it probably isn't going to change the current state of affairs.

    More poison would be nice, but thier poison skills are pretty nice already. I would think theyd get a Burn skill in the form of shadow Flare or whatever it would be called

    Maybe a skill that copies your targets current conditions to nearby enemies?

    The Espec could have a slightly different class function. So, F-1 Steal (Ranged), and F-2 - F-5 could be static spells that use shadow essence to cast. You attain and accumulate shadow essence by stealing.

    I think the best thing would be group Aegis support. Its different and makes sense with the shadow theme. The lore could be that your Aegis is a shadow that gets hit instead of you. Also Group Resistance and quick Group Rez should be a thing as well . The Especs main function should be either healing or Barrier with strong Regeneration.

    So many possibilities

  • serow.6524serow.6524 Member ✭✭
    edited January 16, 2021

    I do!
    Since we're going to Cantha, gimme a Dancer! (follows the naming convention of letter D epic specs for Thief)
    Gimmick: Not sure what tbh
    Weapon: Focus or Warhorn
    Skills: Stances

  • I would prefer that thief were able to support in a way that makes sense for the vibe of the class.

    One thing that comes to mind from my DOTA days is when I used to play Bounty Hunter support- you could put a track on someone which meant that you could see them for a period in the fog of war, and killing that target could get your teammates extra gold. So in GW2 you could add a skill that marks a target, prevents them stealthing (or at least you can see the mark), shows them on the map wherever they go, and grants buffs to your allies on kill.
    That would revolutionise thief's role in WvW and PvP, and in PvE it could give you support potential in an interesting way.