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Thief skill Anomalies - question


Firebeard.1746

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1) Is Deadeye's mark supposed to do damage?

Was scolling through a combat log and saw 1.1k damage from it, but tooltip shows none. i don't play thief so I don't know, but that looks suspicious

2) Death's judgement crit for11k I understand it scales with malice but that still seems insanely high given the tooltip damage of 768 I saw. That's over 10x base. How is this possible? Can someone break it down for me?

On a semi related note, I've seen a tootip where a core mesmer shatter hit me for 4.5k, I know mesmer well enough to emulate the build but still couldn't generate numbers like that.

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  1. mug deals damage

  2. might stacks, vulnerability, zerk amulet, separation sigil etc

  3. zerk, vulnerability, more damage from stun etc

nothing you mention is out of order. mug is pretty normal. 11k dj is on the higher end, 4.5k shatter too but both are possible under certain conditions.

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@Jekkt.6045 said:

  1. mug deals damage

  2. might stacks, vulnerability, zerk amulet, separation sigil etcCan you actually run the numbers instead of just telling me?

  3. zerk, vulnerability, more damage from stun etc

That was the weirdness though: how would I go from 0-25 stacks of vuln instantly out of a stealth? And where would they get 25 on their own? They literally popped out of stealth and did this from thin air, no prior encounter. Also I was using zerk ammy and sep sigil and my crits on a single mind wrack shatter are 2.3k.

nothing you mention is out of order. mug is pretty normal. 11k dj is on the higher end, 4.5k shatter too but both are possible under certain conditions.

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@Firebeard.1746 said:

  1. mug deals damage
  2. might stacks, vulnerability, zerk amulet, separation sigil etcCan you actually run the numbers instead of just telling me
  3. zerk, vulnerability, more damage from stun etc

That was the weirdness though: how would I go from 0-25 stacks of vuln instantly out of a stealth? And where would they get 25 on their own? They literally popped out of stealth and did this from thin air, no prior encounter.

nothing you mention is out of order. mug is pretty normal. 11k dj is on the higher end, 4.5k shatter too but both are possible under certain conditions.

i'm way too lazy to run the numbers but i've played full zerk deadeye the past week and mug deals around 1k damage that can't crit and i hit a ranger for more than 10k with dj once.

mesmer:5-8 stacks vuln from stun (8 if they rupt)12 stacks vuln from power spike on stun12 stacks might from mantra chanel+50% shatter damage on cc+15% crit damage on cc+8.5% damage vuln trait (17 stacks x 0.5%)+sigils and runes

pre feb patch you could literally oneshot every single class except ranger with shatter mesmer. 4.5k crits sounds about right after the global damage nerf. spec can't do that anymore because power spike damage and scaling sucks now.

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@Jekkt.6045 said:

  1. mug deals damage
  2. might stacks, vulnerability, zerk amulet, separation sigil etcCan you actually run the numbers instead of just telling me
  3. zerk, vulnerability, more damage from stun etc

That was the weirdness though: how would I go from 0-25 stacks of vuln instantly out of a stealth? And where would they get 25 on their own? They literally popped out of stealth and did this from thin air, no prior encounter.

nothing you mention is out of order. mug is pretty normal. 11k dj is on the higher end, 4.5k shatter too but both are possible under certain conditions.

i'm way too lazy to run the numbers but i've played full zerk deadeye the past week and mug deals around 1k damage that can't crit and i hit a ranger for more than 10k with dj once.

mesmer:5-8 stacks vuln from stun (8 if they rupt)12 stacks vuln from power spike on stun12 stacks might from mantra chanel+50% shatter damage on cc+15% crit damage on cc+8.5% damage vuln trait (17 stacks x 0.5%)+sigils and runes

pre feb patch you could literally oneshot every single class except ranger with shatter mesmer. 4.5k crits sounds about right after the global damage nerf. spec can't do that anymore because power spike damage and scaling sucks now.

And I had most of those. It doesn't account for a 2x in difference.

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Deadeye mark indeed does do damage via the deadly arts traitline and it also applies what are basically damage modifiers. 11k Dj is generally in a condition where lots of damage modifiers, but if this build is say deadly arts + crit strikes then it may actually be normal. Also keep in mind there’s a possibility of the thief having buffs from objectives which can raise it higher. I don’t know anything about Mesmer though sry

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Damage modifiers stack multiplicatively which is why Malice is so potent. It gets multiplied by the other modifiers which DE gets decent access to. If you combine all the modifiers on CS/TR/DE and add a sigil of force, the total damage ends up around 3.47x the normal crit via a stacked DJ (possibly more, but I'll assume a reasonable build and not idealistic scenarios), plus all the extra ferocity and power from CS. If you combine with this Assassin's Signet, the thief can pretty easily hit 3k (4k PvE/WvW) power and some of the highest crit damage stats in the game.

This is a difficult scenario to achieve for the thief, but absolutely possible. If anything 11k is actually rather mediocre and suggests the DE was in fact not a CS build but spec'ed for SA.

Formula for crits is base value critical damage modifier all other modifiers. None of this is reflected in the damage aspect of the tooltip, since it varies per target and per person casting.It's also worth noting any tooltip info you see is based on your current stats, meaning your link of the tooltip can appear very different than what they see. There is no such thing as "base" damage in this game; it's solely determined by weapon damage power ferocity/crit damage * misc. extra modifiers / opponent's armor. The tooltip you see will be VERY different if you see a linked skill between builds, classes, boon status, other additives, etc.

Tooltip damage is really more of an estimate based on average level-based scalings and the likes; it assumes a ~2600 (2597) armor target, so any profession with less armor will take the appropriate amount of damage increased. In the case of core light armor classes, this is about 1900, indicating that in reality, light armored targets take an additional (2597/1920 [or 1888 sPvP) damage = 35% MORE damage than listed in the tooltip, regardless of any other factors.

So that damage listed ends up being a huge bit different when all the variables not included in the tooltip are actually calculated. Here's some math:Such a thief in sPvP hovers at 245% crit damage with Berserker amulet and Scholar Runes with NQ up. With an additional 3.47 multiplier and then 35% additional damage on the armor difference, actual real damage is... 11.48 times the listed value. Which roughly checks out and can be further modified by vulnerability and other such factors.

A 768 tooltip indicates you have substantially less power than would be expected by a thief. Even on the marauder amulet, the DE's unmodified tooltip for DJ is 1036.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Damage

As I said, use the tooltip as a gauge of relative strength of skills in a vacuum, not a listing for what exactly you'd see on screen, and then do research as to the professions and what kind of builds exist (and the respective skills on a profession; DE in particular gains 15% on DJ damage per stack of malice, up to a 2.05* multiplier with nothing else) to possibly modify said damage.

It's why damage modifiers are a huge deal and contribute greatly to any given damage, and why in my opinion, they should be restricted to low-utility traitlines only, as a form of investment in dealing damage rather than free bonuses for taking a given traitline.

Edit: This is also why you see DE Mark (Mug trait) damage dealing so little. It's unimpacted by almost every other modifier on the thief, including crits, and so you see it deal about 1/10'th of the damage you took. So the match generally checks out.

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@Firebeard.1746 said:1) Is Deadeye's mark supposed to do damage?

Was scolling through a combat log and saw 1.1k damage from it, but tooltip shows none. i don't play thief so I don't know, but that looks suspicious

2) Death's judgement crit for11k I understand it scales with malice but that still seems insanely high given the tooltip damage of 768 I saw. That's over 10x base. How is this possible? Can someone break it down for me?

On a semi related note, I've seen a tootip where a core mesmer shatter hit me for 4.5k, I know mesmer well enough to emulate the build but still couldn't generate numbers like that.

sure, let's run some numbers to see how it's possibledisclaimer: i will be assuming a glass 1shot build with low survivability, most thieves don't hit this hard in spvp

direct damage formula is: (weapon strength power skill coefficient)/(target armor)pvp weapon strength is equivalent to level 78 exotic weapon, which for a rifle is 955-1167 (avg 1061)

for power we'll assume he used berserker amulet with scholar rune for max damage, so 1375now since he's running a 1shot build we can factor in assassin signet which is +540because he has mug we know he's using deadly arts, revealed training gives another +200most thieves run trickery so we can assume 3 might from thrill of the crime for +90finally if he's using maleficent seven in deadeye, that's 10 more might for +3001375 + 540 + 200 + 90 + 300 = 2505 power

skill coefficient for death's judgment in pvp is 1.11

you didn't mention your build at the time so i will assume you had the minimum light armor of 1888

therefore the direct damage comes out to (1061 2505 1.11)/1888 = 1562 damagehis critical damage is 225% from berserker amulet + scholar rune so 1562 * 2.25 = 3514 damage with crit

now let's move on to the damage modifiers which mostly stack multiplicatively, but i think sigils are additive with each otherdeath's judgment deals +15% damage per stack of malice, with maleficent seven that's +105%exposed weakness in deadly arts gives +2% damage per condition, minor traits apply poison/weakness and binding shadow has immob/vuln for +8%the 15 vuln from binding shadow is another +15%lead attacks in trickery gives up to +15%iron sight in deadeye gives +10%and let's assume he has sigil of separation and opportunity for +10%finally scholar rune bonus for +5%

3514 2.05 1.08 1.15 1.15 1.10 1.10 * 1.05 = 13072 damage

so as you can see, 11k+ death's judgment is very possible under good conditions with a glass build, even if we adjust your armor up to 2167 (heavy instead of light) that would still be 11389 damage, hope this helps

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@Jekkt.6045 said:

  1. mug deals damage
  2. might stacks, vulnerability, zerk amulet, separation sigil etcCan you actually run the numbers instead of just telling me
  3. zerk, vulnerability, more damage from stun etc

That was the weirdness though: how would I go from 0-25 stacks of vuln instantly out of a stealth? And where would they get 25 on their own? They literally popped out of stealth and did this from thin air, no prior encounter.

nothing you mention is out of order. mug is pretty normal. 11k dj is on the higher end, 4.5k shatter too but both are possible under certain conditions.

i'm way too lazy to run the numbers but i've played full zerk deadeye the past week and mug deals around 1k damage that can't crit and i hit a ranger for more than 10k with dj once.

mesmer:5-8 stacks vuln from stun (8 if they rupt)12 stacks vuln from power spike on stun12 stacks might from mantra chanel+50% shatter damage on cc+15% crit damage on cc+8.5% damage vuln trait (17 stacks x 0.5%)+sigils and runes

pre feb patch you could literally oneshot every single class except ranger with shatter mesmer. 4.5k crits sounds about right after the global damage nerf. spec can't do that anymore because power spike damage and scaling sucks now.

wronggs2 also gives might/vulnerability, crit damage on CC ( dueling ) is baseline 15%, extra 10% on CC/under 50%, so its 25% total.

  • 50% shatter dmg on cc, im assuming you mean mental anguish? its 50% in pve, in pvp its 10%/20% ( 20% when controlled )Pre feb, core 1shot couldnt reliably 1shot most classes, thief had passive, holo had passive, rev had too much hp, warrior had too much hp ( usually left with 5-15% hp, but rng rolls could actually kill occasionally )It was mostly about 1shoting people that are under 80% hp, or 1shoting weavers since suprise 1shot mes was like the only thing that could get them, oh and usual necro bullying.

EDITI just remember that rangers had passive that made pet take the stun instead of ranger, so that didnt work either, also I think you also were getting vulnerability,also also, cmes with chaos armor also could give weakness so even more dice rolling for kills xd

EDIT v2 for OP@Firebeard.1746RN im playing glass power mirage, and my average shatter is around ~3k-3,1k dmg. Its very possible to land 4,5k shatter, EXPECIALLY if allies buff you ( cough might from warrior cough ), and those are average hits not the peak

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@Leonidrex.5649 said:

  1. mug deals damage
  2. might stacks, vulnerability, zerk amulet, separation sigil etcCan you actually run the numbers instead of just telling me
  3. zerk, vulnerability, more damage from stun etc

That was the weirdness though: how would I go from 0-25 stacks of vuln instantly out of a stealth? And where would they get 25 on their own? They literally popped out of stealth and did this from thin air, no prior encounter.

nothing you mention is out of order. mug is pretty normal. 11k dj is on the higher end, 4.5k shatter too but both are possible under certain conditions.

i'm way too lazy to run the numbers but i've played full zerk deadeye the past week and mug deals around 1k damage that can't crit and i hit a ranger for more than 10k with dj once.

mesmer:5-8 stacks vuln from stun (8 if they rupt)12 stacks vuln from power spike on stun12 stacks might from mantra chanel+50% shatter damage on cc+15% crit damage on cc+8.5% damage vuln trait (17 stacks x 0.5%)+sigils and runes

pre feb patch you could literally oneshot every single class except ranger with shatter mesmer. 4.5k crits sounds about right after the global damage nerf. spec can't do that anymore because power spike damage and scaling sucks now.

wronggs2 also gives might/vulnerability, crit damage on CC ( dueling ) is baseline 15%, extra 10% on CC/under 50%, so its 25% total.
  • 50% shatter dmg on cc, im assuming you mean mental anguish? its 50% in pve, in pvp its 10%/20% ( 20% when controlled )Pre feb, core 1shot couldnt reliably 1shot most classes, thief had passive, holo had passive, rev had too much hp, warrior had too much hp ( usually left with 5-15% hp, but rng rolls could actually kill occasionally )It was mostly about 1shoting people that are under 80% hp, or 1shoting weavers since suprise 1shot mes was like the only thing that could get them, oh and usual necro bullying.

EDITI just remember that rangers had passive that made pet take the stun instead of ranger, so that didnt work either, also I think you also were getting vulnerability,also also, cmes with chaos armor also could give weakness so even more dice rolling for kills xd

EDIT v2 for OP@Firebeard.1746RN im playing glass power mirage, and my average shatter is around ~3k-3,1k dmg. Its very possible to land 4,5k shatter, EXPECIALLY if allies buff you ( cough might from warrior cough ), and those are average hits not the peak

there is no average and peak anymore in pvp since they made all weapons steady

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@Leonidrex.5649 said:

  1. mug deals damage
  2. might stacks, vulnerability, zerk amulet, separation sigil etcCan you actually run the numbers instead of just telling me
  3. zerk, vulnerability, more damage from stun etc

That was the weirdness though: how would I go from 0-25 stacks of vuln instantly out of a stealth? And where would they get 25 on their own? They literally popped out of stealth and did this from thin air, no prior encounter.

nothing you mention is out of order. mug is pretty normal. 11k dj is on the higher end, 4.5k shatter too but both are possible under certain conditions.

i'm way too lazy to run the numbers but i've played full zerk deadeye the past week and mug deals around 1k damage that can't crit and i hit a ranger for more than 10k with dj once.

mesmer:5-8 stacks vuln from stun (8 if they rupt)12 stacks vuln from power spike on stun12 stacks might from mantra chanel+50% shatter damage on cc+15% crit damage on cc+8.5% damage vuln trait (17 stacks x 0.5%)+sigils and runes

pre feb patch you could literally oneshot every single class except ranger with shatter mesmer. 4.5k crits sounds about right after the global damage nerf. spec can't do that anymore because power spike damage and scaling sucks now.

wronggs2 also gives might/vulnerability, crit damage on CC ( dueling ) is baseline 15%, extra 10% on CC/under 50%, so its 25% total.
  • 50% shatter dmg on cc, im assuming you mean mental anguish? its 50% in pve, in pvp its 10%/20% ( 20% when controlled )Pre feb, core 1shot couldnt reliably 1shot most classes, thief had passive, holo had passive, rev had too much hp, warrior had too much hp ( usually left with 5-15% hp, but rng rolls could actually kill occasionally )It was mostly about 1shoting people that are under 80% hp, or 1shoting weavers since suprise 1shot mes was like the only thing that could get them, oh and usual necro bullying.

seems like i'm forgetting some things. thanks for correcting me.

i do remember oneshotting a spellbreaker twice in a row though lol.

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@Jekkt.6045 said:

  1. mug deals damage
  2. might stacks, vulnerability, zerk amulet, separation sigil etcCan you actually run the numbers instead of just telling me
  3. zerk, vulnerability, more damage from stun etc

That was the weirdness though: how would I go from 0-25 stacks of vuln instantly out of a stealth? And where would they get 25 on their own? They literally popped out of stealth and did this from thin air, no prior encounter.

nothing you mention is out of order. mug is pretty normal. 11k dj is on the higher end, 4.5k shatter too but both are possible under certain conditions.

i'm way too lazy to run the numbers but i've played full zerk deadeye the past week and mug deals around 1k damage that can't crit and i hit a ranger for more than 10k with dj once.

mesmer:5-8 stacks vuln from stun (8 if they rupt)12 stacks vuln from power spike on stun12 stacks might from mantra chanel+50% shatter damage on cc+15% crit damage on cc+8.5% damage vuln trait (17 stacks x 0.5%)+sigils and runes

pre feb patch you could literally oneshot every single class except ranger with shatter mesmer. 4.5k crits sounds about right after the global damage nerf. spec can't do that anymore because power spike damage and scaling sucks now.

wronggs2 also gives might/vulnerability, crit damage on CC ( dueling ) is baseline 15%, extra 10% on CC/under 50%, so its 25% total.
  • 50% shatter dmg on cc, im assuming you mean mental anguish? its 50% in pve, in pvp its 10%/20% ( 20% when controlled )Pre feb, core 1shot couldnt reliably 1shot most classes, thief had passive, holo had passive, rev had too much hp, warrior had too much hp ( usually left with 5-15% hp, but rng rolls could actually kill occasionally )It was mostly about 1shoting people that are under 80% hp, or 1shoting weavers since suprise 1shot mes was like the only thing that could get them, oh and usual necro bullying.

seems like i'm forgetting some things. thanks for correcting me.

i do remember oneshotting a spellbreaker twice in a row though lol.

no worries, its real RNG, since you have lots of modifiers tied behind HP, 5% from sigil against under 50% people, fury when someone drops under 75% and most dmg is tied to F1 and it has 47-67% crit chance so real hit or miss can happen. I remember going for warrior like 10 times and he survived every attempt at 5-15% hp.Mb your warrior was using berserker and not demolisher ? then it would be VERY reliable to boom them.

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@Quadox.7834 said:

  1. mug deals damage
  2. might stacks, vulnerability, zerk amulet, separation sigil etcCan you actually run the numbers instead of just telling me
  3. zerk, vulnerability, more damage from stun etc

That was the weirdness though: how would I go from 0-25 stacks of vuln instantly out of a stealth? And where would they get 25 on their own? They literally popped out of stealth and did this from thin air, no prior encounter.

nothing you mention is out of order. mug is pretty normal. 11k dj is on the higher end, 4.5k shatter too but both are possible under certain conditions.

i'm way too lazy to run the numbers but i've played full zerk deadeye the past week and mug deals around 1k damage that can't crit and i hit a ranger for more than 10k with dj once.

mesmer:5-8 stacks vuln from stun (8 if they rupt)12 stacks vuln from power spike on stun12 stacks might from mantra chanel+50% shatter damage on cc+15% crit damage on cc+8.5% damage vuln trait (17 stacks x 0.5%)+sigils and runes

pre feb patch you could literally oneshot every single class except ranger with shatter mesmer. 4.5k crits sounds about right after the global damage nerf. spec can't do that anymore because power spike damage and scaling sucks now.

wronggs2 also gives might/vulnerability, crit damage on CC ( dueling ) is baseline 15%, extra 10% on CC/under 50%, so its 25% total.
  • 50% shatter dmg on cc, im assuming you mean mental anguish? its 50% in pve, in pvp its 10%/20% ( 20% when controlled )Pre feb, core 1shot couldnt reliably 1shot most classes, thief had passive, holo had passive, rev had too much hp, warrior had too much hp ( usually left with 5-15% hp, but rng rolls could actually kill occasionally )It was mostly about 1shoting people that are under 80% hp, or 1shoting weavers since suprise 1shot mes was like the only thing that could get them, oh and usual necro bullying.

EDITI just remember that rangers had passive that made pet take the stun instead of ranger, so that didnt work either, also I think you also were getting vulnerability,also also, cmes with chaos armor also could give weakness so even more dice rolling for kills xd

EDIT v2 for OP@Firebeard.1746RN im playing glass power mirage, and my average shatter is around ~3k-3,1k dmg. Its very possible to land 4,5k shatter, EXPECIALLY if allies buff you ( cough might from warrior cough ), and those are average hits not the peak

there is no average and peak anymore in pvp since they made all weapons steady

there is crit RNG, that you cant bypass unless you sit at 100%. moreover, early crits can lead to dropping someone under 75% to get fury ( making next crits easier to land ) or dropping enemy under 50% ( to get extra dmg from traits/sigil/runes, depending what you run ) rng is still there albeit less, and this is not even mentioning things like GS 2 deciding to bounce into uganda, into allies or other enemies negating damage/might/vuln.

EDITIf you ment my 100% crit F1 average, then I ment over span of a match, different enemies have different toughness/vuln, different might, different HP to proc sigils, supcomplex and other things that can change damage.Also the more clones you shatter the less damage clones deal, so that is also there

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@Leonidrex.5649 said:

  1. mug deals damage
  2. might stacks, vulnerability, zerk amulet, separation sigil etcCan you actually run the numbers instead of just telling me
  3. zerk, vulnerability, more damage from stun etc

That was the weirdness though: how would I go from 0-25 stacks of vuln instantly out of a stealth? And where would they get 25 on their own? They literally popped out of stealth and did this from thin air, no prior encounter.

nothing you mention is out of order. mug is pretty normal. 11k dj is on the higher end, 4.5k shatter too but both are possible under certain conditions.

i'm way too lazy to run the numbers but i've played full zerk deadeye the past week and mug deals around 1k damage that can't crit and i hit a ranger for more than 10k with dj once.

mesmer:5-8 stacks vuln from stun (8 if they rupt)12 stacks vuln from power spike on stun12 stacks might from mantra chanel+50% shatter damage on cc+15% crit damage on cc+8.5% damage vuln trait (17 stacks x 0.5%)+sigils and runes

pre feb patch you could literally oneshot every single class except ranger with shatter mesmer. 4.5k crits sounds about right after the global damage nerf. spec can't do that anymore because power spike damage and scaling sucks now.

wronggs2 also gives might/vulnerability, crit damage on CC ( dueling ) is baseline 15%, extra 10% on CC/under 50%, so its 25% total.
  • 50% shatter dmg on cc, im assuming you mean mental anguish? its 50% in pve, in pvp its 10%/20% ( 20% when controlled )Pre feb, core 1shot couldnt reliably 1shot most classes, thief had passive, holo had passive, rev had too much hp, warrior had too much hp ( usually left with 5-15% hp, but rng rolls could actually kill occasionally )It was mostly about 1shoting people that are under 80% hp, or 1shoting weavers since suprise 1shot mes was like the only thing that could get them, oh and usual necro bullying.

EDITI just remember that rangers had passive that made pet take the stun instead of ranger, so that didnt work either, also I think you also were getting vulnerability,also also, cmes with chaos armor also could give weakness so even more dice rolling for kills xd

EDIT v2 for OP@Firebeard.1746RN im playing glass power mirage, and my average shatter is around ~3k-3,1k dmg. Its very possible to land 4,5k shatter, EXPECIALLY if allies buff you ( cough might from warrior cough ), and those are average hits not the peak

That ranger passive is also very weak with a 300 second cd acting as a single stun break. I’ve literally only noticed players in silver/gold on non meta builds running that or at least in the past year.

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