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Don't know where to go from here.


Genesis.4751

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I apologize for how long this is but definitely something i feel needs to be said. Like the title says, I really don't know where to go in this game anymore. I've loved this game since it came out and I even use to play guild wars 1 but the issue im running into is that if you want to play anything other then open world youre basically locked into like 4 or 5 classes. Those being guardian, revenant, ranger, mesmer or warrior. What i mean is yeah other classes are usable in pvp and wvw to an extent but if you want to play end game content like raids or to fractals your locked into playing a different class for pretty much everything which in my opinion kind of kills the fun and I'm honestly getting tired of people saying just to make alt classes for each type of gameplay. I'd rather not. I'd love to be able to play the 1 class I enjoy the most in every part of the game. And this isn't me complaining that I can't play 1 class. Its me saying that to those of us that don't want multiple alts or want to enjoy a different class then the classes that get all the love cant unless we want to be restricted on what we can do or if we try to go out of those restrictions then the community turns on us and unleashes all their toxicity and hate on us and it's ridiculous. When I pick the class I want to play I pick it based on what theme or characteristics of the class I like and that are fun to me. This is a game. Something thats supposed to be fun. Part of what brought this discussion up is the other day doing T4 fractals I posted an lfg for all welcome. It wasn't a speed run or a cm. Just basic, go at your own pace fractals. Midway through one of the fractals i had an elitist firebrand start jumping on one of our other party members telling them to switch to a dps build instead of the build they were using that was more comfortable for them to play. After watching them go back and forth for about 5 mins I finally had had enough and stepped in and told him to back off, that it was an all welcome party and we weren't trying to speed run. If it were raids then yeah I get needing to do things a certain way so you can kill the boss before it enrages but even then I don't agree with how raids are set up to where only certain classes aren't usable because they aren't "meta". I've played this game since launch and back then when arah was the hardest thing to beat i put a group of elitists in their place by showing how a good necromancer can be if played right and afterwards was praised and asked to join them on other dungeon runs. Now it doesn't matter how good you are, if you're not playing a build or class that someone else deems as meta then you aren't even given a second look and you're told how you're a trash player. I'd love to be able to just pick the one class I enjoy most and fully gear it with both power and condi gear (weapons included) but no instead, thanks to ridiculous balancing, I have one of each class aside from ele with gear all over the place between 8 classes. Yeah I could just go play wow or ffxiv but I don't enjoy those games as much as this one and I'm not really a fan of eso. The point I'm getting at is this community needs to stop with the toxicity, start being helpful with each other, stop worrying about everything having to be done as fast as possible and just enjoy the game. Not everything is a race. If you can do a raid boss with classes or specs that aren't meta and beat it with even just 10-30 seconds left to spare on the timer then guess what? You still beat it in the time frame. Allow people to enjoy the class they want to play. Not push them into a class they don't like all because its more beneficial to you clearing something fast because then you're the only one enjoying yourself while everyone else isn't. Because this is how the community has been as far as what's meta people like me have a hard time actually enjoying the game. And we are stuck with either stick to open world and be bored to death doing the same content over and over or try and learn 20 different rotations from 6 different classes just to get frustrated because some of us have trouble memorizing 1 just so we can try to enjoy the full extent of the game. So i have no idea what to do from here. Any honest suggestions would be helpful and honestly I hope some of you read this and understand where I'm coming from.

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That wall of text is very difficult to read. Before I go on topic, I format it a little. I will not alter the content, but make it a little easier to read and understand.

@"Genesis.4751" said:I apologize for how long this is but definitely something i feel needs to be said. Like the title says, I really don't know where to go in this game anymore. I've loved this game since it came out and I even use to play guild wars 1 but the issue I'm running into is that if you want to play anything other then open world.

You're basically locked into like 4 or 5 classes. Those being guardian, revenant, ranger, mesmer or warrior. What i mean is yeah other classes are usable in pvp and wvw to an extent but if you want to play end game content like raids or to fractals your locked into playing a different class for pretty much everything which in my opinion kind of kills the fun.

I'm honestly getting tired of people saying just to make all classes for each type of gameplay. I'd rather not. I'd love to be able to play the 1 class I enjoy the most (necro) in every part of the game. And necromancer isn't the only class that deals with this so this isn't me complaining that I can't play 1 class. Its me saying that to those of us that don't want multiple alts or want to enjoy a different class then the classes that get all the love cant unless we want to be restricted on what we can do or if we try to go out of those restrictions then the community turns on us and unleashes all their toxicity and hate on us and it's ridiculous. When I pick the class I want to play I pick it based on what theme or characteristics of the class I like and that are fun to me. This is a game. Something that's supposed to be fun.

Part of what brought this discussion up is the other day doing T4 fractals I posted an lfg for all welcome. It wasn't a speed run or a cm. Just basic, go at your own pace fractals. Midway through one of the fractals i had an elitist firebrand start jumping on one of our other party members telling them to switch to a dps build instead of the build they were using that was more comfortable for them to play. After watching them go back and forth for about 5 mins I finally had had enough and stepped in and told him to back off, that it was an all welcome party and we weren't trying to speed run. That is absolutely ridiculous. If it were raids then yeah I get needing to do things a certain way so you can kill the boss before it enrages but even then I don't agree with how raids are set up to where certain classes are usable because they aren't "meta".

I've played this game since launch and back then when arch was the hardest thing to beat i put a group of elitists in their place by showing how a good necromancer can be if played right and afterwards was praised and asked to join them on other dungeon runs. Now it doesn't matter how good you are, if you're not playing a build or class that someone else deems as meta then you aren't even given a second look, you're told how you're a trash player and you're locked out of certain end game content.

And like I said, this isn't just me complaining about the state of necromancer because I know other classes and elite specs are dealing with this as well. I'd love to be able to just pick the one class I enjoy most and fully gear it with both power and condi gear weapons included but no instead, thanks to ridiculous balancing, I have one of each class aside from ele with gear all over the place between 8 classes.

Yeah I could just go play wow or ffxiv but I don't enjoy those games as much as this one and I'm not really a fan of eso. The point I'm getting at is this community needs to stop with the toxicity, start being helpful with each other, stop worrying about everything having to be done as fast as possible and just enjoy the game. Not everything is a race. If you can do a raid boss with classes like necromancer or thief or other specs that aren't meta and beat it with even just 10-30 seconds left to spare on the timer then guess what? You still beat it in the time frame.

Allow people to enjoy the class they want to play. Not push them into a class they don't like all because its more beneficial to you clearing something fast because then you're the only one enjoying yourself while everyone else isn't. Because this is how the community has been as far as what's meta people like me have a hard time actually enjoying the game. Like the title said, because of the state of the game being like this and the community being as toxic as it is i have no idea what to do. Either stick to open world and be bored to death or try and learn 20 different rotations from 6 different classes just to get frustrated because I can barely memorize 1 just so I can try to enjoy the full extent of the game. Any suggestions would definitely be helpful and honestly I hope some of you read this and understand where I'm coming from.

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It is fine. I understand where you are coming from and I am having the same experiences. The problem is not new, we have these discussions quite frequently on the board. There are different reasons for this situation. The raiders/farmers always blame the casuals for being the toxic ones, because we do not live by the meta and insist on that. On the other hand, we blame them for being toxic, because they make everything a competition, even if there is nothing to win.

The good news are, there is a trend into the right direction. There is a growing number of guilds which promote playing the old way, not focusing on the meta only and allowing their players to chose what they like. On the other hand ANet focuses on easier instanced content, that does not require peak-performance.

Sadly, the only thing I can recommend you is to join a guild you can do your Fractal runs with. People who are like-minded, who play for fun and have low or even no focus on performance. They exist and from my impression their numbers slowly increases. It may take some time to find a decent one, but it is worth it. The LFG turned into a gamble, which is mostly used by players who want to get their dailies done. Even the detailed descriptions get ignored.

Thank you for sharing your experience. It takes courage to write about this.

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My word, thank you for the formatting!!

Whilst I sympathise with your overall feeling, however there are two things to bear in mind

  • It's extremely hard to make challenging instanced content for small groups without steering people to roles and specific builds. The only real way to do it is to be so mechanics based that it makes combat trivial and that doesn't really sound fun and still makes character classes pointless anyway
  • it's not fully Anet causing this problem - it is players. Players will always pick out a meta. Players will always find the optimum set up and steer other too it. It's natural behaviour to do so. Yes it causes rifts and divisions, but I don't think there is a solution the devs could come up with solve this. I don't think any MMO company has really solved this problem either

Appealing to the community is noble, but fruitless. Players are too numerous, too opposing in views and too driven to get to the destination as quick as possible to warrant many listening to such a plea.

The only solution anyone has to this is to be part of a group or a Guild which is like minded and run things that way. When I was in a Guild I frequently ran fractals and dungeons with any old, ill thought out group. I'd take my PVT Warrior, or my Zealots Guardian because the fun was in trying. Maybe it would take 2 hours to clear a dungeon path, but we had fun along the way. Not everyone is as free with their time or cares about those things and as much as I wish my PVT mace/shield spellcaster would be welcomed to a raid, I know that is not ever happening and I need to be more flexible with learning metas etc if I want to join.

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Thanks @HnRkLnXqZ.1870 for fixing the formatting!

I agree that this is primarily a player problem. Some people always want to make sure they're using the 'best' choice whether or not there actually is one. I've seen this with strategy games where all the teams are absolutely identical in everything except appearence: some players will insist that one has animations which complete 1/8 of a second faster or whatever and therefore they're the best and anyone using anything else is handicapping themselves and proving they're a bad player by doing so.

It's a shame you had to deal with that in an 'everyone welcome' group, that should be one way to avoid it.

Other than that I think the solution is to join a guild (or more than one) which is open to casual, non-meta runs and play with them. While it can sometimes seem like people who are willing to use other things are rare we are out there, it's just a matter of finding like-minded people to play with.

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I definitely appreciate all the responses and I agree with joining a guild that has like minded people but the problem I've run in with in the past and even now is I can never find a guild or if I do theres always 1 player that ends up going elitist on everyone and convinces them to change classes and play whatever meta to try and speed clear everything instead of taking time to enjoy it or the guild wants you to rep all the time even if you're trying to do stuff with a different guild you're in and if you try to rep a different guild you're in they automatically kick you just because you're ripping the guild you're playing with so (aside from the 6 months I played a few years ago with my old guild before they all stopped playing) most of the time I'm playing im usually either pugging or playing alone which when playing in an mmo really sucks.

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I think the best way to explain the issue i have is I've read on the forums and heard in game so many times of how all classes are viable in end game content as long as you run the right setup and have the right gear and I agree with that. However the issue is its almost impossible to find a group if you aren't running what metabattle or snowcrow says is meta and the best classes to use for certain content like raids and fractals even though both sites claim that other classes are able to do the same content its just those they claim are meta are for speed runs. If you're pugging a raid group, you're most likely not speed clearing it. Pugging a raid group (in my experience from raiding) is no where near as smooth as having a static group that you raid with constantly.

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@Genesis.4751 said:I think the best way to explain the issue i have is I've read on the forums and heard in game so many times of how all classes are viable in end game content

That was more relevant during the early years of the game and largely only remains true for the more open ended World content and lower levels of instances. As more stat combos, more elites, traits and skills were added to the game, it was inevitable that players sought to narrow the options back down as challenging content was introduced.

Technically speaking everything is probably viable, but the reality that viable does not equate to being required or wanted.

There does remain a certain irony that there are calls for more skills, weapons, elites and classes and yet in reality, the options often then get narrowed down by players to a mere handful.

As for finding a Guild, yes it's hard to find a group you can settle and gel with and I do miss my original one a great deal before we split, but when you are with one that matches your playstyle it makes the game so much more fun and worth the invetment in finding it

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Wow... It really hurt reading about your experience.I totally understand what you mean by enjoying the game. I have read each word in all dialogues I've encountered through the stories and watched through all the Vista clips, I've loved every moment of it. When listening to the soundtracks, they wake up memories from the game, sequences that made a special impression. I don't know if the elitists will experience this, as I believe they always click on the "Skip" button. Or maybe they've gone through it once before and then forgot how to really enjoy the game..?Don't know and I'm probably not the right person to judge.

I like how ArenaNet randomizes the dailies in a way that forces us to play through different maps and vary the environment. I've noticed there are some good hearted Mesmers staying at the jumping puzzles and help people out, or some guilds sharing lots of food. That makes me glad and sometimes I stay for a chat. These people deserve a lot of praise as I think they contribute to the community in a positive way.I've seen this behaviour more frequently, people helping each other and taking a break from their own mission or farming to revive a downed player or help out with a Hero Challenge before proceeding with their own business. It's not all bad and I try to help out by paying it forward, showing that "this is actually what I believe the Guild Wars community is about".

Finding a guild with the same interests and playing style may not be easy but, as others here suggest, it may help you on the way. Though I believe that will not solve everything. I say "Go ahead! Create that character you always wanted to play". It might anger one or two elitists, but hey... who are they to decide if a build is awesome or trash? If you are successful with a more difficult build, that would rather make you a better player. Looking for an inspiring build or a challenge is part of enjoying the game and when you succeed with that build you've been struggling with, it beats.. well, almost everything.And if you always go mainstream, you will only be just as good as all the others. Never be able to find a better build.

I've learned from similar games that the mainstream often cry out that some build is op and needs to be nerfed, while the pioneer tries to find a better build. Could there be something more inspiring than succeeding where others have failed? Or finding a character that feels like "You", instead of being like everyone else?

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Sorry to hear about your experience.

I have to disagree on T4 fractals though, and that you are required to play specific classes. Yes, some classes are more useful or better equipped to deal with most content, looking at guardian atm, yet as long as you don't delve into speedrun content, every class can perform very well.

For T4 fractals (and even CMs if the player decides to improve his ability on the class):https://discretize.eu/builds/necromancer/power-reaper

In case of necromancer, even condition scourge or other builds work (at least for T4 fractals). The issue is most often not the class, it's individual players inability to actually play the class. These vast differences people see on the websites and benchmarks and recommendations for specific classes do not apply to 95% of the player base because players aren't even close to that level of performance.

Where class choice does come into play is indeed which roles classes can perform, and those are often limited to which boons classes can give. As far as damage dealer though, I've seen my share of amazing players on any class, and I've run a ton of difficult content in this game.

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@"Cyninja.2954" said:Sorry to hear about your experience.

I have to disagree on T4 fractals though, and that you are required to play specific classes. Yes, some classes are more useful or better equipped to deal with most content, looking at guardian atm, yet as long as you don't delve into speedrun content, every class can perform very well.

For T4 fractals (and even CMs if the player decides to improve his ability on the class):https://discretize.eu/builds/necromancer/power-reaper

In case of necromancer, even condition scourge or other builds work (at least for T4 fractals). The issue is most often not the class, it's individual players inability to actually play the class. These vast differences people see on the websites and benchmarks and recommendations for specific classes do not apply to 95% of the player base because players aren't even close to that level of performance.

Where class choice does come into play is indeed which roles classes can perform, and those are often limited to which boons classes can give. As far as damage dealer though, I've seen my share of amazing players on any class, and I've run a ton of difficult content in this game.

That's the truth. It's like people say you can't play condi because you can't burst effectively. Well, I'm sorry, but that only applies to groups that are pushing phases in a matter of a few seconds with each DPS dealing unsustainable numbers (e.g. 100k+ DPS) in a very short burst. You will NEVER see this group form in random LFG for T4 dailies, though.

For "normal" groups you can run practically anything. Seriously, I run T4 dailies with no problems at all using dire gear and a PvP build on my condi weaver. I can't burst 100k and push phases in 3 seconds, but I'm perfectly fine hitting the 30k burn required for a 15 second Subject 6 shield & burn standard strategy you find in a T4 PUG. The amount of room you have to play it your way outside of the real fractal pro groups is massive.

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@"Genesis.4751" said:Part of what brought this discussion up is the other day doing T4 fractals I posted an lfg for all welcome. It wasn't a speed run or a cm. Just basic, go at your own pace fractals. Midway through one of the fractals i had an elitist firebrand start jumping on one of our other party members telling them to switch to a dps build instead of the build they were using that was more comfortable for them to play. After watching them go back and forth for about 5 mins I finally had had enough and stepped in and told him to back off, that it was an all welcome party and we weren't trying to speed run. That is absolutely ridiculous. If it were raids then yeah I get needing to do things a certain way so you can kill the boss before it enrages but even then I don't agree with how raids are set up to where certain classes are usable because they aren't "meta".

The first thing that came to mind is wondering if this obnoxious person was known in the T4 community for being toxic, and would get kicked out of any party they tried to join. I wonder why that FB didn't organise their own LFG...

There are the few that ruin it for the many. While I don't run T4s (I'm probably not good enough for the mechanics), I've done a couple with people I know and they were fun. But long.

Do you know some people in-game - they don't have to be guild - that you enjoy playing with and also like doing T4 fractals? I have an ever-expanding friends' list where I make sure to nickname people with an accurate note (e.g. "helpful jp mesmer"). When you find these nice people, do you talk about friending each other so that you can see if each other is online when you want to do another T4 or T4 session?

Blocking players doesn't work to prevent them from joining your group, which is super annoying. The best approach is to come up with a method that works for you, that will give you a party of players with whom you want to spend time. The good news is that people with whom you are having fun, are also having fun. These are the types of players who make positive comments in party chat (We did it!, gj!, etc).

Good luck in the future.

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Play WvW.

No seriously. Way more fun and way more chill than the PvE crowd. Find a WvW guild, join and do raids with them (WvW raids, not the PvE raids, they're just called the same).

You'll need to change your build for WvW, but that's not hard to do. You can start with exotic, no oneed for ascended so don't trash your ascended gear that you got for fractals. Nobody is going to pester you for a "meta" build because there's so much builds in WvW and the way it works means your build will not contribute to victory if you're fighting against a more skilled group. Also, vice versa, the opposing group's "meta build" wont mean shit if they aren't acting as one and aren't following their commander. Even if they are, it's rarely about gear, it's about who can outsmart each other. There are "builds" but act only as guidelines as to what traits work best for situations and what utility skills are good choices. But those are situational. I have 2 buidls i run for WvW, and i made both myself. And i do ok because my group does ok, not because we're all meta builds.

In the time you're not doing WvW, do chill T3 fractals for money. Yeah it won't be as much as T4 but you won't have to deal with all the bullshit you experienced either.

Just a thought...

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