Retrospective on CC damage removal

I was in the camp before that CC was its own reward and CC skills should not be a major source of damage.While CC is definitely its own reward, the past year has shown that a removing damage from said skills just resulted in players being ping-ponged for much longer before death. This loss of player agency is unacceptable.

Some ways to address the CC issue:

1. Rework some CC skills so they are non-CC skills
2. Increase the CD of CC skills by a drastic amount
3. Reduce the duration of CC skills
4. Increase the damage of CC skills so it is HIGHER than normal skills (even bursts).

I think any of these could work, though I think the only way to maintain parody of PvP balance with that of other game modes is to go with the #4 option. I realize it's a drastic 180 from the current philosophy, but I'd personally rather spend the 10s of time I would have been CC'd watching the respawn timer tick down and getting another shot at the fight that much sooner.

On a completely and utterly unrelated note, remember when the respawn timer was 20s? I sure do. It was sooooo easy to carry your team because you could keep the enemies dead. Remember being camped when the timer was 20? I do. I would have enough time to come to grips with my defeat, figure out what I did wrong, decide how next to approach the fight, check the score, how my team is doing, and what to do on respawn. Then I look at the respawn timer because there is still 5+sec to wait.

What the FI'm at a loss at how yu came to the conclusion that not only should CC skills have damage back but essentially become 1 click bursts on their own.People running CC builds with huge power hits before the nerfs was the entire reason why it was nerfed in the first place.So not only do yu want to be CC chained, yu want to instantly die to the CC.Why bother playing the game then? The moment yu step out of spawn, yur head just gets removed, or yu get CC'd long enough that the next hit kills yu.

Literally all we need is for chaining CC to have reduced effectiveness the more its being chained, and that's all we need.This could call for a CC effect rework, or Stability rework, but in the end it will be way healthier than whatever yu intended to suggest.

@Yasai.3549 said:People running CC builds with huge power hits before the nerfs was the entire reason why it was nerfed in the first place.But those power builds didn't rely on the CC damage most times. They just set-up with the CC. The reason people don't play them as much anymore is because of the damage loss on the burst part, not on the CC part.So not only do yu want to be CC chained,I explicitly stated I didn't want to be CC chained. . . I don't know how you reached this conclusion.Why bother playing the game then? The moment yu step out of spawn, yur head just gets removed, or yu get CC'd long enough that the next hit kills yu.

It's the difference between having to dodge a burst and having to dodge the set-up for the burst. As it stands, if you don't dodge the set-up for the burst you're eating the burst too so why not just cut out the middle man?Literally all we need is for chaining CC to have reduced effectiveness the more its being chained, and that's all we need.Maybe. It's an idea.

@Yasai.3549 said:What the FI'm at a loss at how yu came to the conclusion that not only should CC skills have damage back but essentially become 1 click bursts on their own.People running CC builds with huge power hits before the nerfs was the entire reason why it was nerfed in the first place.So not only do yu want to be CC chained, yu want to instantly die to the CC.Why bother playing the game then? The moment yu step out of spawn, yur head just gets removed, or yu get CC'd long enough that the next hit kills yu.

Literally all we need is for chaining CC to have reduced effectiveness the more its being chained, and that's all we need.This could call for a CC effect rework, or Stability rework, but in the end it will be way healthier than whatever yu intended to suggest.

Or maybe. Just maybe. Each cc skill should be treated on its own, on a per case basis. Guard hammer 4 is one of the hardest cc's to land on an enemy, it should do normal damage. Some cc skills should do more than normal, others less.

I personally hate the cc change but keep in mind these cc spam builds are barely a problem on their own. Looking at few yeah the decap side node builds are stupid and not necessarily skillful, but these builds also have 0 real damage out put and also very bad sustain to where any roamer- to name a few sic em soulbeast, thief and rev, can beat them 1v1 because their damage and sustain is bad. The only thing that would be crazy toxic is if we had cc spam pw thief but that was nerfed just enough to where it’s just not worth playing. Leaving the best cc class on average is just your regular thief build that can cc rip stab and daze and rev (maybe holo too) which are very very immensely good rn but not just ping ponging ppl. The only one I feel that ping pongs that’s too good is hammer support warrior in 2s and 3s but 2s and 3s don’t mean a lot in pvp ...

@Gwaihir.1745 said:

@Yasai.3549 said:What the FI'm at a loss at how yu came to the conclusion that not only should CC skills have damage back but essentially become 1 click bursts on their own.People running CC builds with huge power hits before the nerfs was the entire reason why it was nerfed in the first place.So not only do yu want to be CC chained, yu want to instantly die to the CC.Why bother playing the game then? The moment yu step out of spawn, yur head just gets removed, or yu get CC'd long enough that the next hit kills yu.

Literally all we need is for chaining CC to have reduced effectiveness the more its being chained, and that's all we need.This could call for a CC effect rework, or Stability rework, but in the end it will be way healthier than whatever yu intended to suggest.

True. There is no blanket fix. If, say, mesmer daze mantra suddenly did tons of damage that would be a huge problem.

They should revert the damage removal on CC skills and remove the CC from at least half of them.

But CC skills should not become stupidly strong.

Always been against CC not dealing damage. There is some middle ground between boulders being heatseeking 7k nukes and what we have now... which is what balance should be about. If CCs become too oppressive just make them unable to crit, but skills like prime light beam or became useless.

@Terrorhuz.4695 said:Always been against CC not dealing damage. There is some middle ground between boulders being heatseeking 7k nukes and what we have now... which is what balance should be about. If CCs become too oppressive just make them unable to crit, but skills like prime light beam or became useless.Well there was going to be a patch that would have given back damage to skills that deserved it per case basis, like there was going to be 300 second cd traits rework, both never came so yeah.

@Vancho.8750 said:

@Terrorhuz.4695 said:Always been against CC not dealing damage. There is some middle ground between boulders being heatseeking 7k nukes and what we have now... which is what balance should be about. If CCs become too oppressive just make them unable to crit, but skills like prime light beam or became useless.Well there was going to be a patch that would have given back damage to skills that deserved it per case basis, like there was going to be 300 second cd traits rework, both never came so yeah.

And never will now. They no longer have anyone actually working on balance, they fired them. They have two guys who spend a day or two throwing numbers into a spreadsheet, and they usually get it wrong.

@Ovark.2514 said:I was in the camp before that CC was its own reward and CC skills should not be a major source of damage.While CC is definitely its own reward, the past year has shown that a removing damage from said skills just resulted in players being ping-ponged for much longer before death. This loss of player agency is unacceptable.

Some ways to address the CC issue:

1. Rework some CC skills so they are non-CC skills
2. Increase the CD of CC skills by a drastic amount
3. Reduce the duration of CC skills
4. Increase the damage of CC skills so it is HIGHER than normal skills (even bursts).

I think any of these could work, though I think the only way to maintain parody of PvP balance with that of other game modes is to go with the #4 option. I realize it's a drastic 180 from the current philosophy, but I'd personally rather spend the 10s of time I would have been CC'd watching the respawn timer tick down and getting another shot at the fight that much sooner.

On a completely and utterly unrelated note, remember when the respawn timer was 20s? I sure do. It was sooooo easy to carry your team because you could keep the enemies dead. Remember being camped when the timer was 20? I do. I would have enough time to come to grips with my defeat, figure out what I did wrong, decide how next to approach the fight, check the score, how my team is doing, and what to do on respawn. Then I look at the respawn timer because there is still 5+sec to wait.

Wait what?! Uhmm the reason ppl are ping pong is because of the stability nerfs and stun breakers not the dmg hahaha

@Exile.8160 said:

@Ovark.2514 said:I was in the camp before that CC was its own reward and CC skills should not be a major source of damage.While CC is definitely its own reward, the past year has shown that a removing damage from said skills just resulted in players being ping-ponged for much longer before death.

This loss of player agency is unacceptable.

Some ways to address the CC issue:

1. Rework some CC skills so they are non-CC skills
2. Increase the CD of CC skills by a drastic amount
3. Reduce the duration of CC skills
4. Increase the damage of CC skills so it is HIGHER than normal skills (even bursts).

I think any of these could work, though I think the only way to maintain parody of PvP balance with that of other game modes is to go with the #4 option. I realize it's a drastic 180 from the current philosophy, but I'd personally rather spend the 10s of time I would have been CC'd watching the respawn timer tick down and getting another shot at the fight that much sooner.

On a completely and utterly unrelated note, remember when the respawn timer was 20s? I sure do. It was sooooo easy to carry your team because you could keep the enemies dead. Remember being camped when the timer was 20? I do. I would have enough time to come to grips with my defeat, figure out what I did wrong, decide how next to approach the fight, check the score, how my team is doing, and what to do on respawn. Then I look at the respawn timer because there is still 5+sec to wait.

Is it too much to ask to have a fighting chance with builds that use 0 stunbreaks or stab?

@Ovark.2514 said:

@Exile.8160 said:

@Ovark.2514 said:I was in the camp before that CC was its own reward and CC skills should not be a major source of damage.While CC is definitely its own reward, the past year has shown that a removing damage from said skills just resulted in players being ping-ponged for much longer before death.

This loss of player agency is unacceptable.

Some ways to address the CC issue:

1. Rework some CC skills so they are non-CC skills
2. Increase the CD of CC skills by a drastic amount
3. Reduce the duration of CC skills
4. Increase the damage of CC skills so it is HIGHER than normal skills (even bursts).

I think any of these could work, though I think the only way to maintain parody of PvP balance with that of other game modes is to go with the #4 option. I realize it's a drastic 180 from the current philosophy, but I'd personally rather spend the 10s of time I would have been CC'd watching the respawn timer tick down and getting another shot at the fight that much sooner.

On a completely and utterly unrelated note, remember when the respawn timer was 20s? I sure do. It was sooooo easy to carry your team because you could keep the enemies dead. Remember being camped when the timer was 20? I do. I would have enough time to come to grips with my defeat, figure out what I did wrong, decide how next to approach the fight, check the score, how my team is doing, and what to do on respawn. Then I look at the respawn timer because there is still 5+sec to wait.

yes? its like taking no damaging traits and whining on having no damage, taking no cleanse and complining conditions are OP, or taking no mobility and whining you are slow.The reason you are ping-ponged before death is due to most builds having no damage to kill you, the fact that you CAN get CC chained for 5s+ as necro and LIVE is stupid on its own, and its not a fault of CC lasting too long but dmg being too low and being unable to kill people that dont even move.You wanna nerf CC? bruh, most builds cant even CC eachother when fighting 1v1, like you have 2-4 real CC skills and people have 2 ways to remove it, and sometimes even if you land every CC you have its removed anyways.

Best thing would be take a look in every skill, but it wont happen

To make things easier give all elite cc their damage back

Then take a closer look at warrior only, cuz i feel it was the most affected by this change

Bulls rush should not have dmg, cuz it already does too much, mobility, evadeframes and stun, but shield could have its atun back as many other skills

ccs not doing damage is stupid, but so is this. good job forums keep up the great work

@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@Ovark.2514 said:

@Exile.8160 said:

@Ovark.2514 said:I was in the camp before that CC was its own reward and CC skills should not be a major source of damage.While CC is definitely its own reward, the past year has shown that a removing damage from said skills just resulted in players being ping-ponged for much longer before death.

This loss of player agency is unacceptable.

Some ways to address the CC issue:

1. Rework some CC skills so they are non-CC skills
2. Increase the CD of CC skills by a drastic amount
3. Reduce the duration of CC skills
4. Increase the damage of CC skills so it is HIGHER than normal skills (even bursts).

I think any of these could work, though I think the only way to maintain parody of PvP balance with that of other game modes is to go with the #4 option. I realize it's a drastic 180 from the current philosophy, but I'd personally rather spend the 10s of time I would have been CC'd watching the respawn timer tick down and getting another shot at the fight that much sooner.

On a completely and utterly unrelated note, remember when the respawn timer was 20s? I sure do. It was sooooo easy to carry your team because you could keep the enemies dead. Remember being camped when the timer was 20? I do. I would have enough time to come to grips with my defeat, figure out what I did wrong, decide how next to approach the fight, check the score, how my team is doing, and what to do on respawn. Then I look at the respawn timer because there is still 5+sec to wait.

Stunbreaks are for people who aren't yet knowledgeable about all the classes capabilities or are playing a build that is designed specifically to not die or to heal. At least that's how it used to be.

@Ovark.2514 said:

@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@Ovark.2514 said:

@Exile.8160 said:

@Ovark.2514 said:I was in the camp before that CC was its own reward and CC skills should not be a major source of damage.While CC is definitely its own reward, the past year has shown that a removing damage from said skills just resulted in players being ping-ponged for much longer before death.

This loss of player agency is unacceptable.

Some ways to address the CC issue:

1. Rework some CC skills so they are non-CC skills
2. Increase the CD of CC skills by a drastic amount
3. Reduce the duration of CC skills
4. Increase the damage of CC skills so it is HIGHER than normal skills (even bursts).

I think any of these could work, though I think the only way to maintain parody of PvP balance with that of other game modes is to go with the #4 option. I realize it's a drastic 180 from the current philosophy, but I'd personally rather spend the 10s of time I would have been CC'd watching the respawn timer tick down and getting another shot at the fight that much sooner.

On a completely and utterly unrelated note, remember when the respawn timer was 20s? I sure do. It was sooooo easy to carry your team because you could keep the enemies dead. Remember being camped when the timer was 20? I do. I would have enough time to come to grips with my defeat, figure out what I did wrong, decide how next to approach the fight, check the score, how my team is doing, and what to do on respawn. Then I look at the respawn timer because there is still 5+sec to wait.

when? lol, sine I started playing, not having AT LEAST 1 way to remove/bypass stuns was trolling, and most if not all ran AT LEAST 2, sometimes bullshit happens.If everyone had no ways to remove CC then stealthed " insert any class " could just stun and instantly win the fight.teamfights would have been fun, thief stealths 3/4 people, first rev to land that aoe stun auto-wins the game.

CC on its own is fine. From a 1v1 percective it may even be considered fair. Problem occurs when cc chained by multiple people. Running aoe stunbreak and team stability is a possible solution but there are far too few options available. If you reduced superspeed to 2s and removed swiftness from eye of the storm and made it 20s it would have more value as a stunbreak support option. If you are going to offer an aoe stumbreak it should be the main point of the skill otherwise it wont be used as a stunbreak.lightning relexes on ranger is how stun breaks should be. Designed specifically for that purpose.

As others have said, CC damage needs to be treated on a case by case basis.

Skillshot and long cast time CC abilities need to have some damage reintroduced. Abilities like Rev Drop the Hammer (Hammer 5), DH Deflecting Shot (Longbow 3), Guardian Banish (Hammer 4), and Scrapper Blast Gyro are just some examples that should have some damage.

On the other hand, quick hitting interupts and easy to land CC should stay low. Abilities like Mesmer Magic Bullet (pistol 5) and Thief Head Shot (pistol 4) are good examples of low damage CC.

Will it happen? We can only hope.

@Vancho.8750 said:

@Terrorhuz.4695 said:Always been against CC not dealing damage. There is some middle ground between boulders being heatseeking 7k nukes and what we have now... which is what balance should be about. If CCs become too oppressive just make them unable to crit, but skills like prime light beam or became useless.Well there was going to be a patch that would have given back damage to skills that deserved it per case basis, like there was going to be 300 second cd traits rework, both never came so yeah.

@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@Ovark.2514 said:

@Exile.8160 said:

@Ovark.2514 said:I was in the camp before that CC was its own reward and CC skills should not be a major source of damage.While CC is definitely its own reward, the past year has shown that a removing damage from said skills just resulted in players being ping-ponged for much longer before death.

This loss of player agency is unacceptable.

Some ways to address the CC issue:

1. Rework some CC skills so they are non-CC skills
2. Increase the CD of CC skills by a drastic amount
3. Reduce the duration of CC skills
4. Increase the damage of CC skills so it is HIGHER than normal skills (even bursts).

I think any of these could work, though I think the only way to maintain parody of PvP balance with that of other game modes is to go with the #4 option. I realize it's a drastic 180 from the current philosophy, but I'd personally rather spend the 10s of time I would have been CC'd watching the respawn timer tick down and getting another shot at the fight that much sooner.

On a completely and utterly unrelated note, remember when the respawn timer was 20s? I sure do. It was sooooo easy to carry your team because you could keep the enemies dead. Remember being camped when the timer was 20? I do. I would have enough time to come to grips with my defeat, figure out what I did wrong, decide how next to approach the fight, check the score, how my team is doing, and what to do on respawn. Then I look at the respawn timer because there is still 5+sec to wait.

This is completely bullshit, there is literally no one playing in higher tiers without stunbreaks, it's just impossible to survive without

@Avatar.3568 said:

@Vancho.8750 said:

@Terrorhuz.4695 said:Always been against CC not dealing damage. There is some middle ground between boulders being heatseeking 7k nukes and what we have now... which is what balance should be about. If CCs become too oppressive just make them unable to crit, but skills like prime light beam or became useless.Well there was going to be a patch that would have given back damage to skills that deserved it per case basis, like there was going to be 300 second cd traits rework, both never came so yeah.

@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@Ovark.2514 said:

@Exile.8160 said:

@Ovark.2514 said:I was in the camp before that CC was its own reward and CC skills should not be a major source of damage.While CC is definitely its own reward, the past year has shown that a removing damage from said skills just resulted in players being ping-ponged for much longer before death.

This loss of player agency is unacceptable.

Some ways to address the CC issue:

1. Rework some CC skills so they are non-CC skills
2. Increase the CD of CC skills by a drastic amount
3. Reduce the duration of CC skills
4. Increase the damage of CC skills so it is HIGHER than normal skills (even bursts).

I think any of these could work, though I think the only way to maintain parody of PvP balance with that of other game modes is to go with the #4 option. I realize it's a drastic 180 from the current philosophy, but I'd personally rather spend the 10s of time I would have been CC'd watching the respawn timer tick down and getting another shot at the fight that much sooner.

On a completely and utterly unrelated note, remember when the respawn timer was 20s? I sure do. It was sooooo easy to carry your team because you could keep the enemies dead. Remember being camped when the timer was 20? I do. I would have enough time to come to grips with my defeat, figure out what I did wrong, decide how next to approach the fight, check the score, how my team is doing, and what to do on respawn. Then I look at the respawn timer because there is still 5+sec to wait.

@Jaykay.9641 said:As others have said, CC damage needs to be treated on a case by case basis.

Skillshot and long cast time CC abilities need to have some damage reintroduced. Abilities like Rev Drop the Hammer (Hammer 5), DH Deflecting Shot (Longbow 3), Guardian Banish (Hammer 4), and Scrapper Blast Gyro are just some examples that should have some damage.

On the other hand, quick hitting interupts and easy to land CC should stay low. Abilities like Mesmer Magic Bullet (pistol 5) and Thief Head Shot (pistol 4) are good examples of low damage CC.

Will it happen? We can only hope.

Imo it has to go by cooldown too.

Lower Cooldown CC, which are spammable, need to have the severe damage nerfs.

Longer cooldown CCs should retain SOME damage.

That being said, it also has to factor in what sort of skill is applying the CC.

For example, Binding Shadow from Deadeye has a whole load of effects, so I think for skills like this, damage should he kept nerfed too, no matter the cooldown.

I too, think Gale should have its damage back.

Oh wait...

CC Skills that are melee range, or put you into melee range ( leaps ) should be doing dmg.

Having to stand in, or walk through all these safe non committal pollution circles in team combat that you can just place and forget / act on top of is cancer.

All we had to do last February was address the fact that certain classes can at ease generate 20+ stacks of might free, and address the quickness spam on top of this.

But then we ( you ) chose to act like it was the actual CC doing dmg being the problem.

Rev and Holo is what got us here.

@TeqkOneStylez.8047 said:

But then we ( you ) chose to act like it was the actual CC doing dmg being the problem.

Subtle.There is good game design and there is bad game design. My endorsements don't change the facts, they just illuminate them.