Hire open wvw commanders > alliances, eternal balance tears or nerfbats. — Guild Wars 2 Forums
Home WvW

Hire open wvw commanders > alliances, eternal balance tears or nerfbats.

Tornjak.6425Tornjak.6425 Member ✭✭
edited December 17, 2020 in WvW

Making a argument that offering economic compensation to players willing to don on the blue tag and put in a healthy amount of wvw hours would do more for game mode than any of the other bandaids that the community is crying for.

Blue tags are far more valuable for the experience of entire servers than any other change that has been implemented since game release.

Comments

  • Bigpapasmurf.5623Bigpapasmurf.5623 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I dunno....ive seen some pink and green do some good as well

    Red = Dead...or someone runs away. Either way it's gone.
    twitch.tv/TRMC
    Lover of Jumping puzzles, Squirrels, WvW, and Taimi
    CLOK Commander and all around nice bro

  • The topic has been discussed multiple times and each time we were stuck at the question "how". Hence, for you the question: How do you want to provide the commander an economic compensation?

  • Dawdler.8521Dawdler.8521 Member ✭✭✭✭

    You pay them then.

    Problem solved.

    gaggle - /ˈɡaɡ(ə)l/ - noun
    A disorderly group of Asura.
    "The gaggle of Asura tried to agree on whether a phase-shifted thermonuclear energy matrix was sufficiently powerful for a device capable of heating bread"

  • Strider Pj.2193Strider Pj.2193 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Which many of the ‘blue tags’ are people who operate because of.... guilds.

    Even when they pub tag.

    Thank You for the {MEME}

  • subversiontwo.7501subversiontwo.7501 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 17, 2020

    Your idea or comment, like many similar ideas and comments that critique Alliances, overlooks where commanders "come from" and that this mode is inherently a PvP mode even if structures are not players.

    It isn't as simple as just finding more superficial carrots for people to put a tag up even if I am not one of those people who would disregard that "pay them" could be a superficial carrot and have some limited value as a small part of a larger whole. For example, albeit being a balance nightmare, it could motivate more people to put a tag up but it does not motivate them to keep it up or deal with the fallout of being oblierated over and over by a group that did more than just put a tag up. Commanders also already get more pips and nothing stops you from paying them (same as nothing stops you from paying the support in your party or other people who help out with duties in the squad). That is already here.

  • ASP.8093ASP.8093 Member ✭✭✭✭

    The problem isn't tagging up, it's actually driving.

    It's true that sometimes everyone in map is just durdling around waiting for a tag, but if you just pop a tag and start doing stuff, you'll get them for about 10 minutes if you repeatedly get pasted upon contact with the enemy. Because what they're actually waiting for is a driver who can direct the group usefully. If you can't bomb or push, many people will just drift back to YOLO semi-independent clouding mode because it's more effective than getting killed on tag.

    Most open PUG tags have some core of a guild group because that gives them at least the starting point of a little well-comped group that's willing to coordinate in voice chat. (A well-comped group willing to follow you even when you suck is basically the only way to actually learn how to be a driver, too.)

  • Kylden Ar.3724Kylden Ar.3724 Member ✭✭✭✭

    And who exactly should pay them?

    How many times we gotta tell you GRIND IS NOT CONTENT there ANet?

    Leader of Tyrian Adventure Corp [TACO], member of [RaW][TACO][Owls][HELL] Alliance, Kaineng.

  • acidic.4356acidic.4356 Member ✭✭✭

    commander saf, at ur service 100g per hour,, contact my agent/manager Dekong.6203

    dear anet - rollback to year 2 of wvw, and start again.. thankyou.

  • Dawdler.8521Dawdler.8521 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @acidic.4356 said:
    commander saf, at ur service 100g per hour,, contact my agent/manager Dekong.6203

    3 copper per day and a pair of centaur hooves, thats my final offer!

    gaggle - /ˈɡaɡ(ə)l/ - noun
    A disorderly group of Asura.
    "The gaggle of Asura tried to agree on whether a phase-shifted thermonuclear energy matrix was sufficiently powerful for a device capable of heating bread"

  • LetoII.3782LetoII.3782 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I'd rather pay the few that are left to leave

    [HUNT] the predatory instinct

  • kamikharzeeh.8016kamikharzeeh.8016 Member ✭✭✭✭

    give ai commander siegerazor a acutally good ai and buff his stats to raid boss levels, then make him activateable by players spending gold. ez profit. and that's a semi-serious thought, because there's no other real way to fix the lack of experience. and it's lack of adaptive battle-ability would require it to be that brokenly strong.

    also, people love to run after a tag. that's autopilotmode, it really matters not for most if the tag has absolutely no clue what he/she is doing. even if the "commander" is just a lemming-general, even that just wakes up at least 5 players of a moderately populated map, that otherwise would... probably fight the next moa.

    @LetoII.3782 someone got rolled over a bit too much i guess? got the wrong portal and accidently landed in Wvw? spoiler, u can exit it through the same portal that brought u in!

    @ASP.8093
    you have a point there. that is, because without a solid core of people who are sorta knowing what they do, it's pretty hard to do anything. the mode by now drowns in kittens.
    the inexperienced "commanders" cannot just time-warp the countless hours of veteran comms in. also, somehow back in the day more knowledge seems to have made it's way to become common knowledge. old comms when i started would just kick half of the squads if they didn't stay at the tag. and it was better that way. people playing Rambo and get rekt in the process only help the enemy by rallying them, and don't even understand this. often they write "rez plies", and two more newbies die in that process. a solid core of 15-20 meta players can guard the kittens, unless they overextend. just a random "commander" won't go far. u need to learn positioning, when to push, when to draw back; but it's not only a tag that does things, if the group just acts like a berserking tribe of barbarians, not much will be acchieved in critical situations.

  • LetoII.3782LetoII.3782 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @kamikharzeeh.8016 said:

    @LetoII.3782 someone got rolled over a bit too much i guess?

    It's true -_-

    [HUNT] the predatory instinct

  • kamikharzeeh.8016kamikharzeeh.8016 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @grave of hearts.7830 wth i never heard this "comms ask for donations to buy siege". i mean the skirmish chests effectively solved that issue, not? i have like a stack on each character. i see the opening for scam but u cannot help people using their brain :S i play since early 2019 only and feel yet like a veteran in the current vanillapopulation... kinda crazy.

    i don't know the "master of disaster" title story tbh ^^ but defenses could anyways get better rewards. plus, these green collectible items "defense map of the mists" or so, a rather rare drop, is absolutely useless. same issue with a bunch of tactics.

    (i never heard of RICE and the ultimate dominator issue, but it's obvious that it has been way easier in the old days to get it)

  • Donating siege itself to Commanders who open tag was a way to help them from spending their own (or their guild's) gold on those things. It was a pretty regular thing back in the day, siege then was pretty expensive and could rack up in price. Or if you forged it in the Mystic Forge it took foreveeeerrrrr. So people did this as a way to show appreciation for that individual open tagging. Granted, with the introduction of skirmish tickets and all that the cost to craft or buy siege has dropped dramatically. It's still not a bad thing to do, especially if you notice your commander throwing a ton of guild siege. You have a stack on each character? Send a stack of plebs to the Commander so they can turn around and make more guild siege.

    However, if you honestly want to encourage people to tag or drive then just be appreciative or helpful. I've seen an influx of posts complaining about commanders or private tags and the such. Want to change that, do these things:

    • Don't be a jerk in Map/Team chat. Be supportive or offer CONSTRUCTIVE criticism privately to the tag. That's the quickest way to discourage a tag who is having an off night or even one who is just now learning.
    • Get on Comms. and be willing to bring something helpful/useful to the group if you have that option. Ask the Commander what is needed. Yeah playing a condi troll druid is fun and completely stupid, but when I look to join a group or my guild forms up, I'm rolling onto something that's helpful. We want to have fun and working together is how we have fun because it can generally lead to a higher rate of success.
    • Be willing to FOLLOW. Just because you don't recognize the name, maybe go check them out. All ways that the WvW community can try and support and encourage those that do want to pop a tag. It was touched on before about commanders and their 'core' group. My guild runs small generally and there have been times attempts were made to rally defenses. We would end up with a handful of comp'd toons on discord and the rest of our group was roamy characters some of which are doing their own thing. There is no way we would be successful against a group and we weren't.

    All things you can do to help a tag be more successful and the more successful they are the more likely they will open tag again that don't straight up require payments. This is honestly however a position the WvW community has put themselves into over time. We don't work well with one another (outside of our select circles) anymore. We are judgmental and harsh to new players or players who need help learning the game mode. We are entitled and want to play what we want how we want and nobody is making me get on comms. Then we complain about not having tags or not winning fights. I've watched entire guilds/servers groups stand by and watch T3 objectives be taken just to prove a point to the other server about how server x was nothing without their group. The rest of that pairing was toxic and nothing got done. Very few open tags were seen during that pairing.

    TLDR Want to encourage commanders? Don't be a jerk. Be supportive. Be helpful. Be constructive. Get on comms. Work together. If the group wins or has fun, the commander will be more willing in the future to do more. If the server is toxic or uncooperative no amount of gold will make the commander continue tagging for an extended amount of time.

  • I’m NA prime time commander on JQ, recently came back to the game and 95% of the time run open.

    Honestly, I think players need to be rewarded for joining a squad + voice comms. How would that work? Let commander pre determine squad comp and reward players for fulfilling a purpose in that comp. As for voice comms? Not sure, the best way to reward people here.... aside for staying the obvious: If you are in voice comms you will live longer & get more bags.

    But hey if you want to start paying commanders, slide into my DMs LOL. I honestly, don’t think it will fix the root of the problem. I don’t command because I get bunch of legendaries out of WvW I command because I love the challenge and enjoy building a team / squad.

  • Whiteout.1975Whiteout.1975 Member ✭✭✭
    edited January 6, 2021

    I believe you have a point @Tornjak.6425 to some extent. The nature of WvW, overall, does tend to rely on commanders to keep up player interest. However, upon realizing that point, I have to ask myself . . . "Is relying on commanders a good thing?" Personally, I do not believe so. I believe the burden of reliance is much more so the job of the game itself and those who help develop it. Still, I see nothing wrong with wanting to encourage Commanders to tag up openly. So perhaps the right kind of encouragement is where the game could do a better job.

    After reading the OP, I am taken back to my time in economics from some time ago. The terms "Free-Rider" and "Public Good" immediately come to mind. Some players can act as free-riders when following an open tag who does not want those extra, random followers. The open tag provides a service, helping players engage in WvW activities, but at the cost of their service becoming a public good. Now, of course, none of this talk applies meaningfully to Commanders who do not mind extra players following them. Still, the general concern of hidden tags presents itself yet again through the eyes of yet another player.

    Before I go on, here are some links to the terms I just used in case anyone needs them:

    Here is the thing. Commanders are not public goods . . . They are people. They have their own lives and their own tastes. Anyone demanding rights to another human being would start to dance with ideas of entitlement and slavery. Yea . . . Let us all not do that. A Commander can act like a public if they wish, or they can be more private. These days, Commanders can now treat their services more as a private good (https://investopedia.com/terms/p/private-good.asp) for which payment may come in different forms. Often, the only form of payment required is to be apart of a guild or hop in a discord. Still, I'm sure MANY Commanders would be open to compensation through other means as well. And if one values a Commander's service, then they should support that Commander in some way.

    I have some ideas on how to better allow for compensation. Ideas preferably without either commander or follower feeling cheated. However, I prefer having what I said thus far to stand-alone. That is all I have for today, take care.

    P.S. I would still like to see Alliances before I die @Anet.

    🍇🍈🍉🍊🍋🍌🍍🥭🥭🍏🍐🍑🍒🍓🥝🍅🥥🥑🍆🥔🥕🌽🌶️🥒🥬🥦🧄🧅🍄🥜🌰🍞🥐🥖🥨🥯🥞🧇🧀🍖🍗🥩🥓🍔🍟🍕🌭🥪🌮🌯🥙🧆🥚🍳🥘🍲🥣🥗🍿🧈🧂🥫🍱🍘🍙🍚🍛🍜🍝🍠🍢🍣🍤🍥🥮🍡🥟🥠🥡🦪🍦🍧🍨🍩🍪🎂🍰🧁🥧🍫🍬🍭🍮🍯🍼🥛☕🍵🍶🍾🍷🍸🍹🍺🍻🥂🥃🥤🧃🧉🧊

  • Dawdler.8521Dawdler.8521 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 6, 2021

    @GameTheory.8059 said:
    I’m NA prime time commander on JQ, recently came back to the game and 95% of the time run open.

    Honestly, I think players need to be rewarded for joining a squad + voice comms. How would that work? Let commander pre determine squad comp and reward players for fulfilling a purpose in that comp. As for voice comms? Not sure, the best way to reward people here.... aside for staying the obvious: If you are in voice comms you will live longer & get more bags.

    But hey if you want to start paying commanders, slide into my DMs LOL. I honestly, don’t think it will fix the root of the problem. I don’t command because I get bunch of legendaries out of WvW I command because I love the challenge and enjoy building a team / squad.

    That sounds awfully biased.

    Why shouldnt I get a reward for rushing to camps and towers in desperate attempts to hold on to something on the map that the commander dont give a kitten about as he spends 45 minutes scrimming with an enemy zerg outside bay accomplishing nothing.

    And at the end, with the current system that already gives commanders bonus pips and the very design of the game giving the zerg 10-20 times the loot of the roamer.... you just want more. More more more!!!.

    Well, at least its like the real world.

    gaggle - /ˈɡaɡ(ə)l/ - noun
    A disorderly group of Asura.
    "The gaggle of Asura tried to agree on whether a phase-shifted thermonuclear energy matrix was sufficiently powerful for a device capable of heating bread"

  • @Dawdler.8521 said:

    @GameTheory.8059 said:
    I’m NA prime time commander on JQ, recently came back to the game and 95% of the time run open.

    Honestly, I think players need to be rewarded for joining a squad + voice comms. How would that work? Let commander pre determine squad comp and reward players for fulfilling a purpose in that comp. As for voice comms? Not sure, the best way to reward people here.... aside for staying the obvious: If you are in voice comms you will live longer & get more bags.

    But hey if you want to start paying commanders, slide into my DMs LOL. I honestly, don’t think it will fix the root of the problem. I don’t command because I get bunch of legendaries out of WvW I command because I love the challenge and enjoy building a team / squad.

    That sounds awfully biased.

    Why shouldnt I get a reward for rushing to camps and towers in desperate attempts to hold on to something on the map that the commander dont give a kitten about as he spends 45 minutes scrimming with an enemy zerg outside bay accomplishing nothing.

    And at the end, with the current system that already gives commanders bonus pips and the very design of the game giving the zerg 10-20 times the loot of the roamer.... you just want more. More more more!!!.

    Well, at least its like the real world.

    I think you are the one that being biased bud.

    You think a commander can’t dedicate a group of players to holding camps. Or another commander can’t form a roaming squad to defend objectives?

    You guys are so obsessed with rewards. But like I said, I don’t care about the pips they do nothing for me.

  • Dawdler.8521Dawdler.8521 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 6, 2021

    @GameTheory.8059 said:
    You think a commander can’t dedicate a group of players to holding camps. Or another commander can’t form a roaming squad to defend objectives?

    Hahahahaha... most commanders seem to think that 1 roamer is enough to take a T3 camp defended by 20+ enemies because its keep is about to upgrade. They cant even dedicate a group to focus party nowadays, let alone something more complicated. And the other commander would instantly be told to tag off because the main commander need everyone on him, even if the other commander was there first.

    GW2 is meant to let you do whatever you want. Giving rewards for being on voice is biased because it implies thats how its meant to be played and anything else is wrong. The very fact of being on voice is already an advantage. You might as well just give 5 bonus pips for login in with a guardian and -5 for login in with a ranger.

    gaggle - /ˈɡaɡ(ə)l/ - noun
    A disorderly group of Asura.
    "The gaggle of Asura tried to agree on whether a phase-shifted thermonuclear energy matrix was sufficiently powerful for a device capable of heating bread"

  • @Dawdler.8521 said:

    @GameTheory.8059 said:
    You think a commander can’t dedicate a group of players to holding camps. Or another commander can’t form a roaming squad to defend objectives?

    Hahahahaha... most commanders seem to think that 1 roamer is enough to take a T3 camp defended by 20+ enemies because its keep is about to upgrade. They cant even dedicate a group to focus party nowadays, let alone something more complicated. And the other commander would instantly be told to tag off because the main commander need everyone on him, even if the other commander was there first.

    GW2 is meant to let you do whatever you want. Giving rewards for being on voice is biased because it implies thats how its meant to be played and anything else is wrong. The very fact of being on voice is already an advantage. You might as well just give 5 bonus pips for login in with a guardian and -5 for login in with a ranger.

    Lol, you assume a lot of what people think. At this point I think you just trolling me bud.

    Listen, you can tag up and do whatever you want. I think we both established that people can’t be forced to do something. I brought my view point to the table, you don’t have to agree with it.

    This forum complains about lack of pins and after listening to some of these arguments I understand why there you guys are experiencing shortage of tags.

    I will see you guys on the battlefield! Maybe I will run open maybe I will run closed. Maybe I will make discord mandatory. It’s my decision :)

  • Svarty.8019Svarty.8019 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Tornjak.6425 said:
    Making a argument that offering economic compensation to players willing to don on the blue tag and put in a healthy amount of wvw hours would do more for game mode than any of the other bandaids that the community is crying for.

    Blue tags are far more valuable for the experience of entire servers than any other change that has been implemented since game release.

    RL Money or in-game currency?

    I suspect that the latter wouldn't motivate any commander to do something they weren't going to commit their time to anyway.

    This post contains my opinion.