Should Revs be forced to channel a Legend?

The whole legend swapping thing on Revenants is something that is conceptually a bit weird and mechanically doesn't work as well as it should. This is mostly because each legend operates within a specific role, so swapping between them often doesn't make a lot of sense. It also leaves an absence of design space for more generic skill types that would fit the Revenant theme well and an overall lack of skill choice for Revenants, which is a problem that will only get worse.

What would a smarter design be? How about this - you only have one legend equipped at a time, but you can go into and out of it in the same way that you swap between two legends currently. There would be 10 or so new skills that are not associated with any legend. These can be customized on your skill bar when you are not invoking a legend. When you go into invocation mode, your customized skills are swapped out for the 5 skills associated with the legend you're currently invoking, which cannot be customized. This would allow you to build a non-invocation loadout that synergizes with whatever legend you have equipped based on the role you want to play, and would make a lot of Revenant choices a lot more interesting.

Conceptually, at least, I think that would make a lot more sense than the current design. It would give Revs much greater build depth. It would probably also justify the removal of weapon swapping - especially if they allowed for not invoking while still having two legend equipped.

At first I thought this was going to be a bad idea,Then I thought hmmmm maybe,Then I read that last line about removing weapon swapping,gg nice troll thread.

@Justine.6351 said:At first I thought this was going to be a bad idea,Then I thought hmmmm maybe,Then I read that last line about removing weapon swapping,gg nice troll thread.

Revs were originally conceived as a class that wouldn't have weapon swapping, and they added it in because they didn't design the legend system well enough to not have it. If they revisited the way legends work, there's no reason why they couldn't have a non weapon swapping class the way engis and elementalists are.

But, I'm not necessarily arguing that it needs to happen I'm just saying there's potential for it.

I think that that actually sounds like a strong idea if we could be given the option to drop a legend but not force only one. It would allow for the build diversity we lack

@Kholem.6092 said:I think that that actually sounds like a strong idea if we could be given the option to drop a legend but not force only one. It would allow for the build diversity we lack

Yeah, that's fair. I don't see anything wrong with doing that instead of forcing only one legend.

Although thematically it does pose a potential problem

I dont think it will be a problem concerning the overall theme. Do you see Rytlock channeling Brill's legend all the time ? No, he only uses it when needed.

Concerning the design, I think its a cool idea to have a no-legend mode. But, I mean, the fact that Rev would only spend time in one legend was obvious. It's like the Thief having no CD but only mana-lookalike-energy : you don't swap weapon unless you need a very specific skill and spend your time using the best for your build.

I Really like this idea, very interesting!

I like the idea of Revenants getting perhaps Shouts or Signets as part of an elite spec which is not associated with any revenant legend, and you can slot them into whichever of the core legends you like, but a Revenant not channeling a legend is basically just a Warrior.

@Sarrs.4831 said:I like the idea of Revenants getting perhaps Shouts or Signets as part of an elite spec which is not associated with any revenant legend, and you can slot them into whichever of the core legends you like, but a Revenant not channeling a legend is basically just a Warrior.

Well, no, not if their skills are totally different. Lol. Are guardians just warriors?

@Einlanzer.1627 said:Well, no, not if their skills are totally different. Lol. Are guardians just warriors?

If a guardian's not using Monk/Guardian magic, yeah, they're just warriors. Guardians were pretty much sold as monk-warrior dualclass so if you don't have monk you're left with warrior.

@Einlanzer.1627 said:Lol.

No need to be a kitten about it.

Then that's not a problem since Revs use Mist Magic. It's basically another type of magic and justifies the fact it's another class. We're only talking about changing its utilities so the weapon skills would remain the same : not at all a warrior in the end.

@Einlanzer.1627 said:

@Justine.6351 said:At first I thought this was going to be a bad idea,Then I thought hmmmm maybe,Then I read that last line about removing weapon swapping,gg nice troll thread.

The problem is that basically every class needs a ranged option. Only very few situational builds can cope without a ranged option. Removing weapon swap would invalidate any melee weapon Revenant has unless Rev gets access to a utility skill that replaces their weapon with a ranged one (like Engi and Ele have). Even on Sword-Weaver being forced into ranged because the boss is standing in a nest of aoes he made for himself feels really bad. Frostbow only lasts for 30 s after all. The same scenario on a Rev who is locked into using sword would be unbearable.

This is a great idea!

But to be honest it could be OP if we have both weapon swap and customize utilities plus a legend.

Maybe we can tie our secondary weapon set to legend invoking. Non-legend stance we are using for example, Sw/Sw and by invoking a legend we will automatically switch to another set of weapon.

I can see a lot of new builds usIng totally different legend-weapon combinations. And the most important part, invoking a legend feels more impactful and more “role-changing”.

@xiev.6905 said:This is a great idea!

But to be honest it could be OP if we have both weapon swap and customize utilities plus a legend.

Maybe we can tie our secondary weapon set to legend invoking. Non-legend stance we are using for example, Sw/Sw and by invoking a legend we will automatically switch to another set of weapon.

I can see a lot of new builds usIng totally different legend-weapon combinations. And the most important part, invoking a legend feels more impactful and more “role-changing”.

That's actually not a bad idea , especially since the weapons were all designed to synergize with a specific legend. It would basically kill two birds with one stone. Rev would officially be a "no weapon swap" class, but would more or less retain their current flexibility. Only issue would be which ones would and wouldn't be equippable by base Rev when not channeling?

I only want dwarfs stability road be selectable in any legend, playing melee without it is cancer.

I would prefer swapable utilities, no legend swap and a legend to replace the invocation line or just remove the legend swap/energy traits. Rev is kept in check balance wise by the energy management mechanic and contained legend traits. Ventari a weird one for utilities but could just trigger on yourself if heal skill not equiped. The unique legend sounds and hand glows could be applied to the upkeep skills to show you channeling thier power.

@Einlanzer.1627 said:

@xiev.6905 said:This is a great idea!

But to be honest it could be OP if we have both weapon swap and customize utilities plus a legend.

Maybe we can tie our secondary weapon set to legend invoking. Non-legend stance we are using for example, Sw/Sw and by invoking a legend we will automatically switch to another set of weapon.

I can see a lot of new builds usIng totally different legend-weapon combinations. And the most important part, invoking a legend feels more impactful and more “role-changing”.

But that still leave the issue of not having the right combination of options to deal with various situations. Jalis becomes mandatory for Hammer, unless you run Kalla, otherwise you have no range attacks at all. The Alternative is to replace the Elite skills with a Kit like option, either time limited or upkeep cost..... but then the skill system gets really cumbersome, and it locks out some potential from the paired weapons (which is twice as prominent when applied to Espec weapons). There are also a LOT of builds that don't even use the paired weapons, because they need the utilities for different reasons.

I feel like I need to restate my previous stance, where Rev weapons should be designed as Delivery mechanisms, The Active legend determining the type of effect it delivers, and the traits designed to enhance those effects. Holosmith already uses this idea with its Forge mode, as skills 1, 2, and 3 are altered by the Master line; and a few Core Specs have traits that can alter specific weapon attacks. As an Example for Rev, Mace and Sword main provide physical damage as base line, and lose their secondary condition effects. When Shiro is active, Physical damage output is increased by a small amount, Auto chain delivers vulnerability on the first 2 strikes and additional damage on the final strike. When Malyaax is active, Auto chain delivers Torment on the first 2 strikes and Poison on the third. Both AA chain final attacks are cleave with a secondary strike, so both can work with these modifiers. To narrow pairings, we can also specify types of weapons... so for this set up it would "Main Hand Mastery" as a Minor Trait. For Skills 2 and 3: 2 is considered an AOE type (one is ground AOE, the other multi-projectile), and can lend burning or chill according to active legend. 3 is a multi-strike, and apply might on hit, or apply torment on hit. The only requirement to maintain this framework moving forward, is that all main hand weapons follow a couple criteria; Final AA having a secondary attack, Skill 2 being area oriented, and Skill 3 being Multi-hit or Multi-target. Off-hand weapons can also be considered "Utility" within this model, and retain their own independent skill effects, or affected by specific major traits. This will work for any Legend which is designed to have Main/Off hand pairings. For other legends made to work with 2-handed weapons, they can benefit main/off setups through simple modifiers or bonus stats of the active legend... just not directly through added effects.

For 2 handed weapons, we can use a different model, where the whole weapon is considered a utility item. This allows the weapon to retain they're more independent design, then naturally enhanced by an Active legend's passive bonus, and various skills modified by traits.

Its still a flawed idea, due to a large number of fringe cases of the current skill spread..... but more directly addresses the alignment problems of the weapons and legends. Retooling of the skills could close the gaps, but thats not likely to happen given their resistance toward altering skills if it affects animations.