What really makes WvW stale for you? — Guild Wars 2 Forums
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What really makes WvW stale for you?

Just pick your favorite choice among the options i provide,or just leave a reply with your own reasons you think it has became stale.

What really makes WvW stale for you? 78 votes

Lack of map/terrain variety,the central map (EB) could had a set of different maps/rulesets rotating montly to aleviate boredom yet its same old eb with the same lag and blobs and sm trebbing.
35%
Ashantara.8731Milea.6043Bellatrixa.3546Gryxis.6950Kylden Ar.3724choovanski.5462Hannelore.8153aleron.1438SweetPotato.7456Helicity.3416gert.7698Manucab.4573Calisanna.8732Bailios.7518Mikhael.2391Rob.7624Svez Poizon XD.5268Excursion.9752Doug.4930Bristingr.5034 28 votes
Customization been stale and most builds play the same instead of having distinct playstyles and ways to be effective,everything boils down to pick dmg/boonbot/condibunker instead of focusing in ways to be unique and fun.
47%
Deaeira.2651Scorci.3250Sansania.8569catalyst.1358Justine.6351K THEN.5162Opal.9324grave of hearts.7830Grahf.1056HnRkLnXqZ.1870Crazy.6029EmperorMoth.2709DeceiverX.8361Ansau.7326Senqu.8054KalasDelRio.8921Atticus.7194Gwaihir.1745CavaleiroV.1904DAN.7314 37 votes
Lack of quality of life changes,the current balance team does a decent job at balancing but the skills are still behaving the same ANNOYING bugged way they did 8 years ago.
16%
Nitrosiili.5628Susy.7529anonymous.7812Voltekka.2375Veprovina.4876Bish.8627hanabal lecter.2495misterman.1530Sansar.1302nomak.8693Slanderman.9532kiri.1467SexyMofo.8923 13 votes
<1

Comments

  • Customization been stale and most builds play the same instead of having distinct playstyles and ways to be effective,everything boils down to pick dmg/boonbot/condibunker instead of focusing in ways to be unique and fun.

    Oh i should had added music too,when i am in an action mode i expect to hear some epic music.
    Yet all i hear is the same depressed soundtrack style jeremy soule had 10 years ago,cripes is it that hard to make an epic version of the gw2 theme and make it the combat theme or something else to help wake up the player?
    The remnant of a hero battle music was great,why we dont have that kind of stuff in wvw?

  • I have no larger issue with any of the options listed.

    I have several issues with the content but none of them are listed.

  • Lack of quality of life changes,the current balance team does a decent job at balancing but the skills are still behaving the same ANNOYING bugged way they did 8 years ago.

    @grave of hearts.7830 said:
    Oh i should had added music too,when i am in an action mode i expect to hear some epic music.
    Yet all i hear is the same depressed soundtrack style jeremy soule had 10 years ago,cripes is it that hard to make an epic version of the gw2 theme and make it the combat theme or something else to help wake up the player?
    The remnant of a hero battle music was great,why we dont have that kind of stuff in wvw?

    Interesting. The first thing I do in any game I play is to turn off the music entirely. Different strokes, I guess.

  • Gwaihir.1745Gwaihir.1745 Member ✭✭✭✭
    Customization been stale and most builds play the same instead of having distinct playstyles and ways to be effective,everything boils down to pick dmg/boonbot/condibunker instead of focusing in ways to be unique and fun.

    I support adding massive tunnel systems below ebg with one exit on each side of the map. A place where if you dont stay with the zerg someone in the shadows will pick you off. And dont like hard terrain, dont like red bl? Cool, stay above. This will never happen ofc.

    Shield of Wrath: Reduced the cooldown of this skill from 36 seconds to 35 seconds.

    Quality balance changes^TM

  • kamikharzeeh.8016kamikharzeeh.8016 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 19, 2020
    Lack of map/terrain variety,the central map (EB) could had a set of different maps/rulesets rotating montly to aleviate boredom yet its same old eb with the same lag and blobs and sm trebbing.

    it's a bit of everything. couldn't pick #3 bc i totally disagree, i hated like 70% of all made balance changes.

    i picked #1 bc EotM playable would be kinda dream, and desert border needs a rework, preferably making the terrain more even as well as just making it notably smaller - so u actually can reach things faster than your enemies can - would do the trick yet. (that to be said, every single map has big space with pretty much unused terrain that contains nothing outside of random NPCs)
    outside of that @grave of hearts.7830 , i disagree that u mention "blobs" there. a blob is the ideal composition. more often u find a zerg + cloud of blobsize only. like, if one real "blob" is on the map, all the horrific roamergankers have no space on the map anymore. no more 5 people on no-risk glasscannon builds waiting at three different camps for lonely roamers to gank them. maybe try to phrase this kinda "pick an option" choices more open and neutral next time.

    i think #3 has this really extremly important point of "quality of life" changes. if u want people to stick around, that'd be a staple. we get rather nothing there tho. no workovers of outdated stuff, only random class changes for "uwu balance patch of classes yes-yes, nerf everything only not me or i cry-curse very loud"

  • kamikharzeeh.8016kamikharzeeh.8016 Member ✭✭✭✭
    Lack of map/terrain variety,the central map (EB) could had a set of different maps/rulesets rotating montly to aleviate boredom yet its same old eb with the same lag and blobs and sm trebbing.

    @Yasai.3549 i'd just wish the summons would not have the same optics as the player. this still annoys me at rangers - their pet attacks u from like 1800 range away from them, and can just pass walls/closed gates and even has its own dot on the map / looks like a player iconwise.

    all the damage nerfs kinda made some builds available, but destroyed a lot of other builds. overall the "balance patches" probably caused even less options to use and encouraged a more stale gameplay.

  • TheQuickFox.3826TheQuickFox.3826 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Getting killed over and over again discourages me.

    Ascalon Will Prevail!

    GW Wiki user page | GW2 Wiki user page

  • Customization been stale and most builds play the same instead of having distinct playstyles and ways to be effective,everything boils down to pick dmg/boonbot/condibunker instead of focusing in ways to be unique and fun.

    @Yasai.3549 said:
    Roamer Perspective :
    Build options to roam effectively just too suffocating.

    Meta Power builds aim to do as much damage as possible as fast as possible, and rely on the build's innate sustain and durability to survive.
    Meta Condi builds aim to survive as long as possible, keep slapping them Condis on until the target dies.

    Anything else has to rely heavily on the player's skill and ability to fight.

    Dumb cheese "Summons" builds which should have never worked in the past is starting to become dominant and a roaming norm.

    • Thieves running Thieves Guild onto everything, and actually winning fights.
    • MM Scourges just flooding in with a whole load of Minions.
    • Core Eles with double Elementals.
    • Scrapper with Supply Drop and Turret spam + Flamethrower.

    ^ These builds disgust me the most, because they are so easy to play, and rely on just dropping a ton of bodies + automated damage to win, but when they face any of actually meta faceroll builds, they just crumble and die.

    But somehow these are effective enough to beat anything which isn't meta built, and usually with extreme ease.

    Gonna avoid talking about thieves, their dumb ini mechanic and stealth is another sort of discussion, but D/P Thieves, Grieving Deadeyes, Power Deadeyes, Thieves roaming in groups and just bullying people all contribute to a slowly suffocating roaming experience.

    The MM trend also follows on Reaper and can be as frustrating tbh.
    Also you gotta account for the smallscale Condi Heralds being the bane of melee classes. Although a bit more skilled is required to play this, it's still 'spammy'.
    And I would also put Core Necro tanks on the list. Click 3 skills enter shroud to never leave it again and spam 1. You may go Lich Form and spam 1 tho.

    Anything else I would say is viable and has counters. But given that everyone and their mother go for easy kills and form this 'meta' the stupid you who wants to play a creative all-rounder build, needs to tryhard and have a skill level of 1000 to battle any enemy, having no fun in the process.

    I was surprised to have an extremely fun solo fight with a Grenade Holo in my core warrior which made me realize how stale WvW currently is for roamers even more...

  • i am disapointed, i can't vote for all 3.

  • Rob.7624Rob.7624 Member ✭✭
    Lack of map/terrain variety,the central map (EB) could had a set of different maps/rulesets rotating montly to aleviate boredom yet its same old eb with the same lag and blobs and sm trebbing.

    @ledernierrempart.6871 said:
    i am disapointed, i can't vote for all 3.

    Call me an old timer - but all three were an argument that we were having in 2012. I believe at this stage it's pretty unlikely to change!

    _Commander Bird Song, Northern Shiverbeaks _

  • Siryx.5124Siryx.5124 Member
    edited December 24, 2020
    Customization been stale and most builds play the same instead of having distinct playstyles and ways to be effective,everything boils down to pick dmg/boonbot/condibunker instead of focusing in ways to be unique and fun.

    @Shroud.2307 said:
    What makes WvW stale for me isn't WvW, but the players.


    • Guilds that play 70/30 Support/DPS, farm pugs and are nigh untouchable by
    • Players that roam in groups of 5 - 10+ that have no respect for people playing alone
    • People with no creativity of their own that only play what's best in a mode (WvW) that it hardly matters
    • Players that sit in objectives 24/7 constantly manning siege waiting for someone to pass by so they can shoot them
    • People who make it their business to put Commanders down until they detag because they don't agree with how they lead

    yes
    yes
    idk, balancing issue and prone to happen
    yes, or with golems in camp
    yes

  • Susy.7529Susy.7529 Member ✭✭✭
    Lack of quality of life changes,the current balance team does a decent job at balancing but the skills are still behaving the same ANNOYING bugged way they did 8 years ago.

    In particular: lack of updates on Alliances progress status.

  • probably lag and lack of good fights. the balance and maps have always been secondary.

    te lazla otstara.
    fingers crossed meta ~

  • vier.1327vier.1327 Member ✭✭✭

    Lack of WvW Alliances. And lack of community pride.

  • aspirine.6852aspirine.6852 Member ✭✭✭✭

    The constant migrating of groups of people that undermine the reset of servers completely.. I know this will hurt Anet in their income, but perhaps people that transfered last matchup should not be able to transfer for the next...

  • Za Shaloc.3908Za Shaloc.3908 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Bad fights. Boonball groups. Deadeyes. Immob spam. Minstrel stats.

    Honestly alliances aren't too huge of a deal to me and there's part of me that'll be really sad to see that day come because I like playing with so many of my servermates who are all mostly in different guilds. But hey, if it leads to better fights, I'd be happy. I do care about balance, but as long as I can play a build that I enjoy that I don't feel is 100% dogkitten, I am generally happy.

  • joneirikb.7506joneirikb.7506 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Was about to post something but then Shroud.2307 said most of it. Basically "It's the players."

    Elrik Noj (Norn Guardian, Kaineng [SIN][Owls])
    “Understanding is a three edged sword: your side, their side, and the truth.”
    “The objective is to win. The goal is to have fun.”
    "Modern GW2 is a xmas tree simulation"

  • Solanum.6983Solanum.6983 Member ✭✭✭
    edited December 27, 2020
    Lack of map/terrain variety,the central map (EB) could had a set of different maps/rulesets rotating montly to aleviate boredom yet its same old eb with the same lag and blobs and sm trebbing.

    I wish I could vote for all of the above but ultimately for me I chose the maps, Simply because the older maps are small and predictable, It's just the same thing over and over. At least Red boarder there's a lot of verticality to play with and open space for large fights. The Maps could be so much better than they are, I'm sure it'd need some balancing but why not add in some Underground tunnels, Underwater areas, Gliding Updrafts, Tactic Leylines, Medizookas ect...

    All that said though, another huge factor is gameplay, With how little balance changes there is the Meta stays the same and problematic things don't get looked at for months at a time, the same goes for underused/weak skills that could offer more variety.

  • kamikharzeeh.8016kamikharzeeh.8016 Member ✭✭✭✭
    Lack of map/terrain variety,the central map (EB) could had a set of different maps/rulesets rotating montly to aleviate boredom yet its same old eb with the same lag and blobs and sm trebbing.

    what really suprises me is that anyone chooses the "builds" option. this is really the last thing i could ever care about, since most people don't even use a real build. easily half, rather 80% of the most maps' capacities are completely randomly geared people.

    for example, i always facepalm in front of the screen when i see the weavers going into 600 range and just exploding seconds later. idk what they try to do there, but running the class with crazy dmg-avoid and brutal range dps like that is just pretty weird, yet pretty common apparently.

    or overall, if u have 25-30 cloudy people rather pew pewing alone into a 20ish people group and therefore getting slow but steady farmed by them, instead of forming a group themselves and ramming them down in one push, is just my real issue. it's not fun to fight with that kinda people. everyhing takes about 5 times as long as it'd need to take, if not even longer.

  • Customization been stale and most builds play the same instead of having distinct playstyles and ways to be effective,everything boils down to pick dmg/boonbot/condibunker instead of focusing in ways to be unique and fun.

    In a nutshell the big balance patch, within a close(ish) time-frame to mounts being added, then the entire mode and balance being left in the wind ever since has made wvw stale. Very stale. Its hard stay interested.

  • Baldrick.8967Baldrick.8967 Member ✭✭✭

    Can't choose one, as it's all three plus several other glaring issues that have existed since the beginning of time.

  • Lack of map/terrain variety,the central map (EB) could had a set of different maps/rulesets rotating montly to aleviate boredom yet its same old eb with the same lag and blobs and sm trebbing.

    @Susy.7529 said:
    In particular: lack of updates on Alliances progress status.

    That's easy. It's coming SOON™
    (A.K.A. Never)

  • kamikharzeeh.8016kamikharzeeh.8016 Member ✭✭✭✭
    Lack of map/terrain variety,the central map (EB) could had a set of different maps/rulesets rotating montly to aleviate boredom yet its same old eb with the same lag and blobs and sm trebbing.

    @Moradorin.6217 said:
    In a nutshell the big balance patch, within a close(ish) time-frame to mounts being added, then the entire mode and balance being left in the wind ever since has made wvw stale. Very stale. Its hard stay interested.

    for me all the "balance" made the game way less interesting. masses are harder to push, things die slower and only the big glass cannons still deal similar amounts of dmg. support isn't really able to defend itself against the cancerous spvp builds anymore.

    mounts are big time useless anyways, also only help the way larger group to gank better in heavily outnumbered situations. even gives a free daze at demount....

    we would need a real balance, and not try to balance over nerfing skills and traits to garbage, it only got way more stale than it has been.

  • Erze.7253Erze.7253 Member ✭✭

    @misterman.1530 said:

    @grave of hearts.7830 said:
    Oh i should had added music too,when i am in an action mode i expect to hear some epic music.
    Yet all i hear is the same depressed soundtrack style jeremy soule had 10 years ago,cripes is it that hard to make an epic version of the gw2 theme and make it the combat theme or something else to help wake up the player?
    The remnant of a hero battle music was great,why we dont have that kind of stuff in wvw?

    Interesting. The first thing I do in any game I play is to turn off the music entirely. Different strokes, I guess.

    Me, too, but I used to play a game where listening to the environment could keep you from getting killed. Doesn't help much in GW2.

  • kamikharzeeh.8016kamikharzeeh.8016 Member ✭✭✭✭
    Lack of map/terrain variety,the central map (EB) could had a set of different maps/rulesets rotating montly to aleviate boredom yet its same old eb with the same lag and blobs and sm trebbing.

    @Erze.7253 that's a bit wrong, audio effects of skills can help u to not get killed. like, you can hear enemy mesmer portals even when u don't see them yet, and therefore start bombing before they can :P

  • Helicity.3416Helicity.3416 Member ✭✭✭
    Lack of map/terrain variety,the central map (EB) could had a set of different maps/rulesets rotating montly to aleviate boredom yet its same old eb with the same lag and blobs and sm trebbing.

    There should have been new maps and map revisions years ago, rotating them around every week.

    Also pips should just work in EotM

    And rewards have been terrible in WvW since launch, get on that Anet

  • anonymous.7812anonymous.7812 Member ✭✭✭
    Lack of quality of life changes,the current balance team does a decent job at balancing but the skills are still behaving the same ANNOYING bugged way they did 8 years ago.

    The current Chrono meta is getting very stale, very fast -- hopefully @Cal Cohen.2358 has something up his sleeves in a month or 2.

  • Kylden Ar.3724Kylden Ar.3724 Member ✭✭✭✭
    Lack of map/terrain variety,the central map (EB) could had a set of different maps/rulesets rotating montly to aleviate boredom yet its same old eb with the same lag and blobs and sm trebbing.

    We require additional pylons maps.

    How many times we gotta tell you GRIND IS NOT CONTENT there ANet?

    Leader of Tyrian Adventure Corp [TACO], member of [RaW][TACO][Owls][HELL] Alliance, Kaineng.

  • Lack of attention. WvW gets the short end of the development time and I wish it wasn't that way.

  • Kylden Ar.3724Kylden Ar.3724 Member ✭✭✭✭
    Lack of map/terrain variety,the central map (EB) could had a set of different maps/rulesets rotating montly to aleviate boredom yet its same old eb with the same lag and blobs and sm trebbing.

    Also, looking at today's patch notes, the lack of updates, ever.

    How many times we gotta tell you GRIND IS NOT CONTENT there ANet?

    Leader of Tyrian Adventure Corp [TACO], member of [RaW][TACO][Owls][HELL] Alliance, Kaineng.

  • The majority of wvw content is provided by the players themselves, and when a team lacks players in a certain timezone, the map dies (becomes stale) by about 33% per team.
    In the early days, we had huge servers & teams before a server would reach the full status, and lots of servers had a zerg in every timezone, around the clock. Fun good old times. I suspect the servers allowable population was drastically reduced at some point, prolly to address all the angry kids complaining about map queues during primetime, at the cost of killing entire non-prime timezones.

    _/_ [SSSh] Secret Society Service _/_
    [Respect Ur Opponents, We All Provide Eachothers Fun]
    Blackgate Since Season 1

  • kash.9213kash.9213 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 5, 2021

    All these points make kind of one larger point of our characters hardly existing in this game.

    • WvW isn't open world pvp but when prime time is burned out this mode isn't self propelling enough to warrant staying logged in when the action is done. You can roam around if you want but what's the payoff of content to the amount of time you're looking for something to do?
    • There's no feeling of our characters belonging to our game mode maps and our characters don't live there, even the WvW specific gear is an insult (they still haven't given the light effect from our Mistforged chest piece it's own dye channel) compared to other modes.
    • But then we're also disconnected from the core game, living story, and expansions. We get almost no aesthetic, music, or story from the rest of the game, and the rest of the game gets no mention or news from our corner. So our characters really don't belong anywhere and we don't get to enjoy downtime exploration like we would in an open world mode or game. PvE should fulfill that need for us but WvW it's basically a separate game that's not complete.
    • We get a forgotten promise of Alliances, but even that might scrap any sense of community our servers have currently. It's not just guilds who make up a game community, I think the strength of my server if there ever was any has been in our pubs, floaters, and havok commanders. But none of that matters either once prime time is done.

    Northern Shiverpeaks [EL] & [SD]

  • Svarty.8019Svarty.8019 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Over time it's become WAY too easy to capture things.

    The mode LACKS CHALLENGE for attackers now.

    This post contains my opinion.

  • subversiontwo.7501subversiontwo.7501 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 6, 2021

    @kash.9213 said:
    All these points make kind of one larger point of our characters hardly existing in this game.

    • WvW isn't open world pvp but when prime time is burned out this mode isn't self propelling enough to warrant staying logged in when the action is done. You can roam around if you want but what's the payoff of content to the amount of time you're looking for something to do?
    • There's no feeling of our characters belonging to our game mode maps and our characters don't live there, even the WvW specific gear is an insult (they still haven't given the light effect from our Mistforged chest piece it's own dye channel) compared to other modes.
    • But then we're also disconnected from the core game, living story, and expansions. We get almost no aesthetic, music, or story from the rest of the game, and the rest of the game gets no mention or news from our corner. So our characters really don't belong anywhere and we don't get to enjoy downtime exploration like we would in an open world mode or game. PvE should fulfill that need for us but WvW it's basically a separate game that's not complete.
    • We get a forgotten promise of Alliances, but even that might scrap any sense of community our servers have currently. It's not just guilds who make up a game community, I think the strength of my server if there ever was any has been in our pubs, floaters, and havok commanders. But none of that matters either once prime time is done.

    I agree with most of these things.

    The issue is though that these things are just symptoms of the same stuff we always talk about. It is hard to get a sense of purpose, belonging or impact when the same things that have been imbalanced and broken since the start are still imbalanced and broken. It is hard to care about an objective when you know it is just going to get swiped by coverage- and population imbalances and it is hard to care about overall matchup score when that is still subject to the same problems. It's the same in 2021 as when people felt it was pointless to spend gold on upgrading objectives in 2012.

    This is why we, the community, have kept talking about scoring, nightcapping and population imbalance since 2012.

    All of these things that Kash brings up are results of that. At the end of the day what WvW "is" is a competition on a ladder but the ladder has always been broken. It is a king-of-the-hill with a multitude of subcontent (roam, raid, havoc-cap, GvG, pickup, havoc-on-pickup, defense etc.) under that strategic layer. The king of the hill has just never been the king of the hill, nore the queens, knights or knaves. That was broken in 2012, that was broken in the 2013 tournament, in the 2014 tournament and in 2021. Scoring can fix that, objective fixes can fix that and Alliances can fix that.

    Other issues have later appeared once those original issues have begun driving enough players who care about WvW (and playing with the mechanics that are surrounded by those issues) from the game. Those issues are still the portal and still govern behaviour though.

    What divides and unites?

    I've said this many times now. I want Alliances but I don't even think Alliances will serve much of its original purpose anymore. The only reason I still want Alliances now is that they are still a reason for people to build and rebuild community again. Today, some groups spend big piles of gold to form new communities. Other groups may perhaps even still give Anet gems to do that. However, most groups do not and as such communities die out and things get stale. That is the big problem now. It is now for the social-constructive side of the mode kind of the same as it was for the players who cared about score and the ladder or the players who cared about tending to an objective. It feels pointless and not worth the effort. These things also divide and split the playerbase apart more and more (rather than uniting and overlapping it). There have always been differences between PPT and PPK, between content at different scales (roamers, raiders, zergers etc.) or between players who primarily see themselves as PvP, PvE or PvX. However, the longer these issues have lingered, the larger the differences have become: The larger the divide and the more the isolation, frustration and dislike.

    If things like scoring and nightcapping were adressed properly (which tech has existed for, for years) it would also start bridging the divide and turn the ship around in a positive direction (only then can we see if things are not too far gone to be worth saving, population wise). The tower someone feels like taking or defending would impact score and define the comming matchup for those who want to matchup and fight against someone else. These things are interconnected but since they are broken they pull apart rather than interact, perhaps your server doesn't want to go up, because up isn't really up, as scoring is broken and the king isn't the king, etc.

    The exception and the rule - the example and the system

    Instead we have things like a server in EU that has been given an exception in the population cap in order to accomodate players speaking that language from another region, continent and timezone. That is literally shooting oneself in the foot. Now, that issue in itself is not the big thing here. It is just a very obvious example of how incredibly daft the developer has been with things like this. I don't know how superlative I can get to underline that but: It is literally monkey level. Let's build a game mode and then just break it ourselves by both leaving the day 1 systemic flaws unaddressed AND putting all those core rules out of play, then just stand by and watch the dumpster fire ensue. The real issue isn't of course that exception but rather that all the other servers are locked and that we have systems with those kind of locks. They should in fact never have existed since Megaservers were always intended and Servers themselves was originally an ad-hoc. It was a band-aid ripped from PvE in 2014 yet we still have it in 2021. The system itself is the problem but the example just shows an incredible disregard for their own system and the flaws in it. The example wouldn't be a problem if problems like locks, scoring and objectives were fixed, but those are not treated with any kind of priority, urgency or iteration (outnumbered and EotM's backend were leads into that, but how much iteration have they seen? and what impact do they have on the mode today?).

    The Getting out of jail Card

    Since all this is intertwined it also the answers the age-old question of why groups transfer: They transfer to get good matchups (finding the frienemies to fight in lieu of a GvG arena or matchup system that lets them find each other on maps), they transfer to avoid bad matchups (like an EU server with an NA [SA] population and scoring profile that becomes a disproportionate obstacle to good matchups on the ladder; a knave dressed a knight), they transfer to build community with players who want to be social and play WvW, they transfer to get away from players who are anti-social, who have filled the gap left by social groups leaving but are not interested in actually participating and have become anti-social because the developer has now developed an anti-social product: The single-player "MMO". WvW is one of the few things left that actually is an MMO in this MMO. The PvX'er who used to come into WvW was an MMO player, the PvE'r who do it today is often a 1up RPG player. There is little overlap there, beyond the stale divide that already exists. It is very hard to play multiplayer games with people who doesn't want to talk, doesn't want to listen, doesn't want to lead and doesn't want to follow. It is even harder if you get locked into a room with them that you have to pay your way out of. It's also miles from when Jon Peters talked about the importance of friends and frienemies. That was the Anet that made GW2. This is the Anet of today, completely devoid.

    I guess it is more profitable to be a kidnapper than a game designer these days, at least until all the kids break out and run B) .

  • Customization been stale and most builds play the same instead of having distinct playstyles and ways to be effective,everything boils down to pick dmg/boonbot/condibunker instead of focusing in ways to be unique and fun.

    @subversiontwo.7501 said:

    @kash.9213 said:
    All these points make kind of one larger point of our characters hardly existing in this game.

    • WvW isn't open world pvp but when prime time is burned out this mode isn't self propelling enough to warrant staying logged in when the action is done. You can roam around if you want but what's the payoff of content to the amount of time you're looking for something to do?
    • There's no feeling of our characters belonging to our game mode maps and our characters don't live there, even the WvW specific gear is an insult (they still haven't given the light effect from our Mistforged chest piece it's own dye channel) compared to other modes.
    • But then we're also disconnected from the core game, living story, and expansions. We get almost no aesthetic, music, or story from the rest of the game, and the rest of the game gets no mention or news from our corner. So our characters really don't belong anywhere and we don't get to enjoy downtime exploration like we would in an open world mode or game. PvE should fulfill that need for us but WvW it's basically a separate game that's not complete.
    • We get a forgotten promise of Alliances, but even that might scrap any sense of community our servers have currently. It's not just guilds who make up a game community, I think the strength of my server if there ever was any has been in our pubs, floaters, and havok commanders. But none of that matters either once prime time is done.

    I agree with most of these things.

    The issue is though that these things are just symptoms of the same stuff we always talk about. It is hard to get a sense of purpose, belonging or impact when the same things that have been imbalanced and broken since the start are still imbalanced and broken. It is hard to care about an objective when you know it is just going to get swiped by coverage- and population imbalances and it is hard to care about overall matchup score when that is still subject to the same problems.

    This is why we, the community, have kept talking about scoring, nightcapping and population imbalance since 2012.

    All of these things are results of that.

    Other issues have later appeared once those original issues have begun driving enough players who care about WvW (and playing with the mechanics that are surrounded by those issues) from the game.

    I've said this many times now. I want Alliances but I don't even think Alliances will serve much of its original purpose anymore. The only reason I still want Alliances now is that they are still a reason for people to build and rebuild community again. Some groups to spend big piles of gold to form new communities. Other groups may perhaps even still give Anet gems to do that. However, most groups do not and as such communities die out and things get stale since it is now for the social-constructive side of the mode kind of the same as it was for the players who cared about score and the ladder or the players who cared about tending to an objective. It feels pointless and not worth the effort. These things also divide and split the playerbase apart more and more (rather than uniting and overlapping it). There has always been differences between PPT and PPK, between content at different scales (roamers, raiders, zergers etc.) or between players who primarily see themselves as PvP, PvE or PvX. However, the longer these issues have lingered, the larger the differences have become: The larger the divide and the more the isolation, frustration and dislike.

    If things like scoring and nightcapping were adressed properly (which tech has existed for, for years) it would also start briding the divide and turn the ship around in a positive direction (if things are not too far gone to be worth saving, population wise). The tower someone feels like taking or defending would impact score and define the comming matchup for those who want to matchup and fight against someone else. These things are interconnected but since they are broken they pull apart rather than interact.

    Instead we have things like a server in EU that has been given an exception in the population cap in order to accomodate players speaking that language from another region, continent and timezone. That is literally shooting oneself in the foot. Now, that issue in itself is not the big thing here. It is just a very obvious example of how incredibly daft the developer has been with things like this. I don't know how superlative I can get to underline that but: It is literally monkey level. Let's build a game mode and then just break it ourselves by both leaving the day 1 systemic flaws unaddressed AND putting all those core rules out of play, then just stand by and watch the dumpster fire ensue. The real issue isn't of course that exception but rather that all the other servers are locked and that we have systems with those kind of locks. They should in fact never have existed since Megaservers were always intended and Servers themselves was originally an ad-hoc. It was a band-aid ripped from PvE in 2014 yet we still have it in 2021. The system itself is the problem but the example just shows an incredible disregard for their own system and the flaws in it. The example wouldn't be a problem if problems like scoring and objectives were fixed, but those are not treated with any kind of priority, urgency or iteration.

    Yeah i pretty much agree on this.
    basicaly everything still screams abandoned by development,something that shouldnt been a thing a year after the layoffs.
    I really wish the current anet team could see this from the veteran customer point of view,but i am afraid that them understanding is impossible.
    A developer who doesnt play his own product at regular intervals to see the changes in effect,might never understand a veteran customer who has spend hundreds of hours on the game mode.
    If we are going to see the same kind of neglect on GW3 WvW (assuming some specific country regime doesnt have another bioweapon gone rogue and we all end up dead) then theres no reason to buy GW3 for me,heck i dont really have a reason to buy the next expansion and the whole mystical chinese setting is scratching a lot of fresh wounds on me and others who lost family to the epidemic.

  • subversiontwo.7501subversiontwo.7501 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 6, 2021

    @grave of hearts.7830 said:
    Yeah i pretty much agree on this.
    basicaly everything still screams abandoned by development,something that shouldnt been a thing a year after the layoffs.
    I really wish the current anet team could see this from the veteran customer point of view,but i am afraid that them understanding is impossible.
    A developer who doesnt play his own product at regular intervals to see the changes in effect,might never understand a veteran customer who has spend hundreds of hours on the game mode.
    If we are going to see the same kind of neglect on GW3 WvW (assuming some specific country regime doesnt have another bioweapon gone rogue and we all end up dead) then theres no reason to buy GW3 for me,heck i dont really have a reason to buy the next expansion and the whole mystical chinese setting is scratching a lot of fresh wounds on me and others who lost family to the epidemic.

    Yeah, I mean, just to drive my point home a bit more:

    Alot of people mentioned maps, this Anet about PvP maps in 2011 leading up to the release in 2012. This is Anet about PvP maps in 2020 leading up to EoD in 2021. This is Wooden Potatoes on Megaservers in 2014. This is Wooden Potatoes on EoD in 2020. It says something about gameplay, content and player content or content creation in general. What is said and what has transpired is also very interesting if anyone can muster up the patience to chug through it.

    As far as GW3 goes. I don't think that there will ever be a GW3 (and if there ever came a GW3 it wouldn't be an MMO, it would be a 1up adventure, a Guild Witcher 3 but perhaps more like 2077). As far as EoD goes, nothing in the behaviour of the developer suggests that we should expect anything different than from PoF, so I don't. If something more comes I'll be pleasantly surprised but I'm keeping my expectations low or have none (and per the meme, I will still probably be disappointed :3 ). I also wouldn't be surprised if we were to have a third, fourth or fifth round of "we are sorry we couldn't fit PvP into the EoD crunch, but we are determined to build something for you as our next priority" (we will talk more about it in the comming months), [look at this guy we gave the task but not the resources who gets to weather your Alliances-when and only-PvPer-in-the-room goofing].

  • Hannelore.8153Hannelore.8153 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 6, 2021
    Lack of map/terrain variety,the central map (EB) could had a set of different maps/rulesets rotating montly to aleviate boredom yet its same old eb with the same lag and blobs and sm trebbing.

    Its mostly how stale the game mode has become, which has alot to do with the maps and rewards. I think players still do okay, I like alot of the builds I come across, and combat is still fun and challenging. But I think the staleness factor of the environment itself makes everyone bitter, and because of that they feel overly negative towards everything else as well.

    Ask yourself a question: If you were fighting the same players in Silverwastes or Drizzlewood, would it be more interesting? For alot of people the answer would be "yes", because they'd welcome the fresh air that a new environment would bring.

    Why do you think so many wish for open-world PvP?

    This is something that can mainly be solved by new maps, map rotations and skirmish rewards, but it'll likely never happen. Its been a decade now and they still haven't even remastered EBG with any of the new technologies, just adjusted the terrain a little bit. Not even a simple retexturing pass to make it have a higher resolution, better looking textures.

    I was thinking recently about how wonderful an objective Pang is. Its the ideal combat spot--open, yet choked. Defensible, yet enemies can build siege weapons or set up camp just outside as well. It can either be the strongest beachhead ever, or a death trap, depending on how either side plays. And that's why you see players capturing it and fighting there so often, I think.

    And I thought about how little we have anything like that in maps: Actual combat zones. Most objectives are terrible at combat, you can't even get into the forts without breaking down a wall or gate first, and usually its just mopping up some NPCs. On the other hand most camps are wide open, and not even worth defending because its like trying to stop a bus with a pillow.

    The tl;dr of it is, for a war game, Guild Wars 2 has some pretty bland environments in WvW. I don't count Desert Borderlands because its way too spread out and vertical, nor Edge of the Mists because it doesn't reward pips.

    Hannah | Daisuki[SUKI] Founder, Ehmry Bay, NA | 22 charas, 17k hours, 28k AP | ♀♥♀
    Mains Mariyuuna/Auramancer(PvE) & Terakura/Healbreaker(WvW) aka Sea of Sorrows Silver Assaulter [SUKI]
    No need to be best, only good and kind.

  • Lack of map/terrain variety,the central map (EB) could had a set of different maps/rulesets rotating montly to aleviate boredom yet its same old eb with the same lag and blobs and sm trebbing.

    I'd like to see a new map that caters to blobs. A smaller, more linear map (without camps etc....), that lets organized groups hammer away at each other with fewer distractions and less downtime.

  • TwoGhosts.6790TwoGhosts.6790 Member ✭✭✭

    Bandwagoning.

    The loss of Arc Templates and the sh*tshow of the so-called build templates Anet shoved on us.

    The deafening silence and neglect.

    Deadeye.

  • Atticus.7194Atticus.7194 Member ✭✭✭
    Customization been stale and most builds play the same instead of having distinct playstyles and ways to be effective,everything boils down to pick dmg/boonbot/condibunker instead of focusing in ways to be unique and fun.

    Blobs.

    No matter what specs come and go the core of a blob is always the same; barrier, boons and stacked healing turning everything annoyingly unkillable facetanks with a backline of DPS. The scaling on all of this has always been a problem and always will be until Anet considers WvW it's own entity and not just an offshoot of PvP and tunes for it alone. Most of this is already annoying in PvP but there are counters, in WvW when you have 50+ players everything wildly scales out of control.

    The meta is stale and boring and not fun to play against or in.

  • avey.4201avey.4201 Member ✭✭✭

    bunker condi spam meta, I'll fly kites with enemy zerg, no use fighting

  • So many things.

    WvW is not being played as intended.
    We have servers actively tanking matches to avoid T1, then we have servers ignoring everything in the game mode except EBG/SMC actively tanking to stay in T4 to get "EpIc KdR" not making the connection Kdr is generally about numbers vs numbers lmao.
    I don't have a solution to this, and being that its gone on for pretty much ever, I doubt Anet does or even cares.
    Server transfers are bad, and being stuck on a bad server getting farmed is bad.
    Winning should be good, not punishing.

    Rewards for completing Diamond multiple times... aren't rewarding.
    You'd think we would be rewarded for actually playing the game for extended periods? Not in WvW I guess.

    Meta is a bit stale for sure and un-killable try hard blobs are so blase

    Builds aren't super terrible but the cheese is beyond anything we've seen in the past.
    Every class has too much, and skills are bloated (cough Dolyak Stance).

    My list of obnoxious in no particular order:
    Ranger

    • 2 spam deleting people from 2k range (why is this still a thing?)
    • boonbeast
    • infinite immob
      Thief

    • deadeye in general

    • condi thief.. honestly...
    • unkillable bunker cheese
    • stealth (even with all the anti stealth jazz its still cancer)
      Revenant
      -Condi herald/renegade is beyond obnoxious
      Engi
      -Support too stronk
      -some bunker builds condi and power are so dumb
      Ele

    • insane damage when spec'ed with enough invulns to make warriors jelly

    • 1v1 attrition nonsense is obnoxious
      Mesmer

    • condi/clone spam

    • 1shot power invis
      Necro
      -Raid boss base necro (kitten)
      -roll face scourge
      -spin2win reaper
      Gaurdian
      -1 shot core (not many of them but still nonsense)
      -DH's all the sudden became obnoxious, what the heck?
      Warrior
      -A guild name said it best "No aim no brain im a warrior [MAIN]" kek

    I'm prepared for the hate because most of you play these builds (why wouldn't you) but lets be honest, there's a lot of builds that need adjusting.

    All this being said, I think WvWs faults are just a result of Anet abandoning this game mode for far too long.

  • Hesione.9412Hesione.9412 Member ✭✭✭✭

    When two servers decide to leave each other alone and do this:

    https://imgur.com/a/LlFEeo2

    And I cannot work out how to embed because the image isn't showing when I try to embed.

    This is going to be my life all week (I'm red).

  • Justine.6351Justine.6351 Member ✭✭✭✭
    Customization been stale and most builds play the same instead of having distinct playstyles and ways to be effective,everything boils down to pick dmg/boonbot/condibunker instead of focusing in ways to be unique and fun.

    @Hesione.9412 said:
    When two servers decide to leave each other alone and do this:

    https://imgur.com/a/LlFEeo2

    And I cannot work out how to embed because the image isn't showing when I try to embed.

    This is going to be my life all week (I'm red).

    What's the problem exactly? Looks like all 3 servers lost objectives recently.

    Anet buff me :-(
    Make me good at game!

  • Hesione.9412Hesione.9412 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Justine.6351 said:

    @Hesione.9412 said:
    When two servers decide to leave each other alone and do this:

    https://imgur.com/a/LlFEeo2

    And I cannot work out how to embed because the image isn't showing when I try to embed.

    This is going to be my life all week (I'm red).

    What's the problem exactly? Looks like all 3 servers lost objectives recently.

    That is what red is going to look like all week. As well as being focussed for fights. As well, our skirmish scores tend to be a couple of hundred lower than those for green and blue. I'm on a paired server. We don't have coverage across many of the hours. We don't ever seem to be paired with a server that does.

    With guild transfers between servers messing up the glicko, etc, I suggest that Anet simply use random numbers to pair servers.

  • Sylvia.4870Sylvia.4870 Member ✭✭
    edited January 11, 2021

    @Will.6470 said:
    So many things.

    WvW is not being played as intended.
    We have servers actively tanking matches to avoid T1, then we have servers ignoring everything in the game mode except EBG/SMC actively tanking to stay in T4 to get "EpIc KdR" not making the connection Kdr is generally about numbers vs numbers lmao.
    I don't have a solution to this, and being that its gone on for pretty much ever, I doubt Anet does or even cares.
    Server transfers are bad, and being stuck on a bad server getting farmed is bad.
    Winning should be good, not punishing.

    Rewards for completing Diamond multiple times... aren't rewarding.
    You'd think we would be rewarded for actually playing the game for extended periods? Not in WvW I guess.

    Meta is a bit stale for sure and un-killable try hard blobs are so blase

    Builds aren't super terrible but the cheese is beyond anything we've seen in the past.
    Every class has too much, and skills are bloated (cough Dolyak Stance).

    My list of obnoxious in no particular order:
    Ranger

    • 2 spam deleting people from 2k range (why is this still a thing?)
    • boonbeast
    • infinite immob
      Thief

    • deadeye in general

    • condi thief.. honestly...
    • unkillable bunker cheese
    • stealth (even with all the anti stealth jazz its still cancer)
      Revenant
      -Condi herald/renegade is beyond obnoxious
      Engi
      -Support too stronk
      -some bunker builds condi and power are so dumb
      Ele

    • insane damage when spec'ed with enough invulns to make warriors jelly

    • 1v1 attrition nonsense is obnoxious
      Mesmer

    • condi/clone spam

    • 1shot power invis
      Necro
      -Raid boss base necro (kitten)
      -roll face scourge
      -spin2win reaper
      Gaurdian
      -1 shot core (not many of them but still nonsense)
      -DH's all the sudden became obnoxious, what the heck?
      Warrior
      -A guild name said it best "No aim no brain im a warrior [MAIN]" kek

    I'm prepared for the hate because most of you play these builds (why wouldn't you) but lets be honest, there's a lot of builds that need adjusting.

    All this being said, I think WvWs faults are just a result of Anet abandoning this game mode for far too long.

    If a ranger uses the second skill from the longbow, any reflection skills or interruption ones can stop his firing. Should a soulbeast be full of boons, those who can convert them to conditions or are capable of stealing boons will smile. Supposing that a deadeye loves to stay in the dark and waits for an opportunity to unleash a high damage on his target, one must strike him down fast(as long as one can still see him) and be aware of his fatal shots(for instance, Death Judgement). Assuming that one meets a condi thief, one needs to take him down as quickly as possible while watching out condition damage(Bleeding, Poison, Torment, Confusion). Stealth is one of the main sources for defenses of the Thief Profession (on condition that one gets used to its mechanics and can predict where a foe is, it will not be an issue). Talk about condi herald/condi revenant - he barely uses an effort to do anything on his foe(a lazy, cheesy build , to be precise.Too easy to play). Providing that one meets such a profession like these, one needs to avoid the crucial abilities that inflict condition damage and slay him with strong, quick combos(don't let him have a chance to heal himself at all!).
    Elementalist(whether a core one, tempest or weaver); of course, he is deadly when he can use his skills precisely and continuously. Without barriers and invulnerability, he is fragile with no doubts. To freeze him completely, one must land every skills on him accurately and constantly as long as he has no such defensive capacities. Provided that a mesmer creates clones along with phantasm ones, one is to catch the real creator of theirs and beware of his burst damage from the clones and the phantasm ones(whether it is power damage or condition damage). Talk about necromancer - if it is a reaper, one had better escape from the second skill of the shroud's mechanics perfectly or block it. Then, one needs to kite around for ensuring the fading of the shroud's life force from him. After that, one will have a chance to slay him(once his shroud is on cooldown: 10 seconds). Provided that it is a scourge(with death magic, blood magic and minions around as additional defenses), one must be calm and take out his health as swiftly as possible(no rushing on him if he still has barriers). Talk about guardian(whether it is a core one, dragonhunter or firebrand) - there is something common in all of them; their burning damage. To survive from it, one mustn't touch any of their essential capabilities(rushing toward a target while bringing blindness to him, spinning around to chain an enemy, placing an area of blue circle[which causes the burning damage]) If it is a dragonhunter, one needs to evade his shots and favorite traps as well as one can. Next, one is to ignore his shields if they are up on him(the blue shields around him; if it is the dome, don't use any ranged attacks - melee ones are effective on him). Once they are gone, one has an opportunity to cut him down. Talk about warrior - if it is a berserker, one must be prepared for the burst skill and escape from it by evasiveness, interruption or blocking. Should it be a spellbreaker, one mustn't be interrupted by his counterattack or one will be chained. Furthermore, one is to be careful from crowd control potentials( bull's charge, shield bash, Juggernaught mode with its own skills, the abilities from the hammer and daze from the mace).
    I hope these details will help you in a way or two to deal with such opponents like these. Good hunting ,sir! :)

  • Norbe.7630Norbe.7630 Member ✭✭✭
    edited January 11, 2021

    Its population,
    twas answered many times many years ago
    thats why linking system was tested, then used as permasolution but the problem persisted
    thats why the alliance proposition was made but not implemented (its worse than relinking)

    you remember the unthinkable happened?
    Blackgate opened, everybody was like oh my fooking gawd! at that time
    twas like a covid pandemic or something on GW2 WvW scene

    I changed mode since then from WvW to PvP, but was surprised on what I've found
    it is the testing ground for the future of WvW, the solution is fcking simple, add bots
    you translate PvP to like 3 persons + 2 bots vs 5 people in PvP, now in WvW all they need is to place 1000 bots to play with you then WvW is saved even if you are the only one left playing that mode (for PvErs who wants to unlock Warclaw or costumes or Achievement moguls)

    PS: i hope Diku still fights for his World vs Globes idea lol (basically wants WvW to turn EoTM)

    Why So Serious?

  • Woop S.7851Woop S.7851 Member ✭✭✭
    edited January 11, 2021

    @Shroud.2307 said:

    • Guilds that play 70/30 Support/DPS, farm pugs and are nigh untouchable by
    • Players that roam in groups of 5 - 10+ that have no respect for people playing alone
    • People with no creativity of their own that only play what's best in a mode (WvW) that it hardly matters
    • Players that sit in objectives 24/7 constantly manning siege waiting for someone to pass by so they can shoot them
    • People who make it their business to put Commanders down until they detag because they don't agree with how they lead
      The only players that will provide actual fights are all in a group, so you can't have a good 1v1/X and instead get harassed by numbers you can in no way handle. Outside of having a good fight, there's nothing else you can reliably do because of Mounts and Tactics.
      There are so many possibilities with builds in this game and yet 90% of the playerbase has 0 creativity. It's the same 3 - 5 things over and over again that only changes when the meta changes.
      People can't at least make builds their own or make something entirely unique. It is so boring to fight clones all day.
      Players literally refuse to fight beyond the border of their objective but will happily sit inside it shooting you with what ever siege reaches and will summon the zerg when you head for a camp.
      And lastly, bullies. Commanders are few and far between as it is. Less and less people are willing to do it because like roaming, it has become less and less rewarding

    Thanks @Shroud.2307, those are great critical points! :)
    Let's say for example WvW is to be enhanced, based on the issues above, any suggestions/comments on solutions & how the game mode can be drastically improved? :)

    From above, key points & questions:

    1. Skill mechanics: lack of build diversification; would secondary professions (similar to GW1) resolve this? Thoughts? Ideas?

    2. Macro-Environmental variables/rules: The current WvW mode for the main maps are 24/7, can it be argued that this arrangement triggered issues such as spawn camping (low population), night-capping (score system), generating follower frustration indirectly placed upon the lead/commander? Thoughts? Comments? (Analogy: chess/checker board = environment, Player pieces = different professions adhering to system rules previously set in that environment)

    3. If match systems were instanced: (GW1 Alliance battles) with set timer/intervals (similar to EOTM - 4 hours per match), would that alleviate some of these issues mentioned above? Any thoughts or better methods? Any other games/examples? =)

    4. For the commander system: Follower frustration is indirectly burdened upon the commander player, any thoughts on how to encourage more people to lead + participate from a** system perspective**? (Designed system rules that will enhance commanding + follower experience)

    • Example scenario 1: a map has 0 commanders for 'x' amount of minutes & has low population:
      A. System would auto-suggest and prompt high-rank players to volunteer as commander, offering bonus rank/rewards facing overwhelming enemy numbers

      B. System auto-assigns multiple small parties, with highest ranking player auto-selected/tagged as group-leads, can be seen on minimap

    • Example scenario 2: Low-population on 1 side, Keep held by enemy for too long + no commander present for more than 'x' minutes:
      A. System initiates NPC Commander Siegerazer, it tags up, offering bonus buffs (such as Commanders' presence) to players that follow & lays siege to take a keep back, or:
      B. System...spawns a Siege Turtle (drivable) at spawn area :p:)

    • Example scenario 3: Enemies camping a spawn non-stop (4 thieves, 10 guardians etc. or due to population imbalance):
      A. System apply de-buffs to spawn campers near the area after 'x' Minutes (examples: -200 toughness or stealth disabled + 'revealed')
      B. Elevate terrain for spawn area or add exit portal, enemy players can't see beyond portal (similar to GW1 Alliance battles)

    Also a legacy discussion post on: Commander Tag/Function Enhancements

    Thoughts, comments, feedbacks welcomed! :) Thanks!

    ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Legacy post related to alliances (for reference):

    https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/26547/world-restructuring/p1


    NA Server: Henge of Denravi
    WvW Builds: https://tiny.cc/wvw2