About Vengeful Return in Discipline...

Can this become a minor trait? I dont care what line it goes to, but please, put it as a minor in Disc, or Tactics or Defense or something... it cannot compete ever with runspeed increase, damage increases, or for condi builds that are required to get Burning Arrows (also a ridiculous trait).

Please do something with this trait!

1) Burn on AA on LB should be baseline. Crack Shot should give 33% chance to cause burn on a critical hit with a 1s duration. Similar for bleed and Harpoon Gun fwiw. Rifle should get increased adrenaline per hit rather than on AA.

2) Vengeful Return on a minor would be very powerful and would make whatever traitline that received it almost mandatory. It would almost be a guaranteed rally every time you go down.

3) What would be better would be for Vengeful Return to offer a benefit while you are not in downstate. A stat increase might not be a bad idea, like more ferocity which is doubled during downstate. I say ferocity because Discipline is the traitline that originally focused on crit damage. Something like +150 ferocity normally and doubled while in downstate, including when you use vengeance. That way you have some extra DPS normally, and you get a boost when you use Vengeance to help secure your own rally.

@Lan Deathrider.5910 said:1) Burn on AA on LB should be baseline. Crack Shot should give 33% chance to cause burn on a critical hit with a 1s duration. Similar for bleed and Harpoon Gun fwiw. Rifle should get increased adrenaline per hit rather than on AA.

2) Vengeful Return on a minor would be very powerful and would make whatever traitline that received it almost mandatory. It would almost be a guaranteed rally every time you go down.

3) What would be better would be for Vengeful Return to offer a benefit while you are not in downstate. A stat increase might not be a bad idea, like more ferocity which is doubled during downstate. I say ferocity because Discipline is the traitline that originally focused on crit damage. Something like +150 ferocity normally and doubled while in downstate, including when you use vengeance. That way you have some extra DPS normally, and you get a boost when you use Vengeance to help secure your own rally.

I feel like Vengenful Return, as a minor master, proc-ing increased ferocity or better effects on your fury ,would work better in Arms. I know it may not make much sense, but at the same time we got Crackshot in Discipline instead of Arms. Like fusing Deep Strikes from Arms with an increased chance to rallly when in downed state. Name it something like 'Limit Breaker' for said rally chance and superior effects in fury.

Then Discipline has a good way to utilize a new major adept and Arms can be reworked to be utilized more (not only in the meme builds or condi berserker). Arms being a good substitute to Strength when running either Discipline and/or Defense would make for some interesting builds, power or condi.

Cause frankly, warrior condi gameplay is rather limited..and imo not fun in competetive modes.

No.Too powerful.

That would make Discipline even more deep rooted into meta because it will now have too many beneficial passive acting traits that just make Warrior perform better by default.

@Yasai.3549 said:No.Too powerful.

That would make Discipline even more deep rooted into meta because it will now have too many beneficial passive acting traits that just make Warrior perform better by default.

Well then they need to Axe the downed skill and make it do something else.

@"Opopanax.1803" said:

Well then they need to Axe the downed skill and make it do something else.

Hold on lemme rummage through my bag to show yu my "Downstate is stupid" club membership card.

Sorry it's a little dusty, I've not renewed my subscription in forever.

@Opopanax.1803 said:

@Yasai.3549 said:No.Too powerful.

That would make Discipline even more deep rooted into meta because it will now have too many beneficial passive acting traits that just make Warrior perform better by default.

Yeah, because getting up while being downed to freely move around and use your whole skillset is just so bad for the downed skill standards!

Just axe the downed state altogether and we're k. :no_mouth:

@Sobx.1758 said:

@Opopanax.1803 said:

@Yasai.3549 said:No.Too powerful.

That would make Discipline even more deep rooted into meta because it will now have too many beneficial passive acting traits that just make Warrior perform better by default.

Yeah, it really I when all you do is die.

@Opopanax.1803 said:

@Sobx.1758 said:

@Opopanax.1803 said:

@Yasai.3549 said:No.Too powerful.

That would make Discipline even more deep rooted into meta because it will now have too many beneficial passive acting traits that just make Warrior perform better by default.

Smart opponents disengage and wave at the free bag. Bads do get downed though and if you have a stab free then you get a kill at least. Still die without the trait the majority of then time though.

@Opopanax.1803 said:

@Sobx.1758 said:

@Opopanax.1803 said:

@"Yasai.3549" said:No.Too powerful.

That would make Discipline even more deep rooted into meta because it will now have too many beneficial passive acting traits that just make Warrior perform better by default.

Even if you don't roll into the chance of staying alive, you have a better chance to kill someone (or otherwise contribute to the fight) after using it than you have by staying on the ground and pressing 1. Even if you die afterwards, it still can accomplish more than you can hope for with many other downed skills.

If you think differently, then I'd like to understand exactly why without some backhanded "and then you die so w/e" answer. You also die while staying on the ground and dashing/stunning/whatever once. The difference is that when you get up, then depending on your active skill/weaponset you can do it much more frequently while having an option to actively move/react to what is happening. I fail to see how that's not strong when compared to other downed skills. Making it a guaranteed rez after a kill with no setbacks is simply putting it multiple tiers above anything else in that category.

@Sobx.1758 said:

@Opopanax.1803 said:

@Sobx.1758 said:

@Opopanax.1803 said:

@"Yasai.3549" said:No.Too powerful.

That would make Discipline even more deep rooted into meta because it will now have too many beneficial passive acting traits that just make Warrior perform better by default.

You have to wait quite some time before being able to use vengeance. In PvP, you will probably die before.Without trait, it is generally a death sentence in PvE, and I see warriors dying of vengeance every days, whereas they could have survived by just auto attacking or wait for revive (if anyone around).Compare this one to other professions, it looses to most of them. Personally I never use it, especially considering I usually get downed to champions or strong veterans so 25% is hopeless as I will probably get one kill at best.Even in PvP, its value is not great as you will most likely die just after. You might down someone, but he can still be revived.

With traits, it is obviously better but it forces you to trait to have a good down skill.

I would rather remove all downed traits, and increase vengeance to 75-100% in PvE and 50% in PvP

@"Aigleborgne.2981" said:

Compare this one to other professions, it looses to most of them. Personally I never use it, especially considering I usually get downed to champions or strong veterans so 25% is hopeless as I will probably get one kill at best.Even in PvP, its value is not great as you will most likely die just after. You might down someone, but he can still be revived.

Yur looking at this differently :If yu get downed in competitive, and the other player is still "standing" so to speak, high chance yu lost, just accept death.

Now if we are talking about a scenario where yu get downed, then yu manage to somehow down the enemy during yur downstate.There are a few Professions which straight up "win" downstate battles : And Warrior is one of them.

Vengeance is actually pretty strong if yu can simply get up, walk over to the other guy, stomp him, then walk away.

Sure Vengeance can get buffed to 100% in PvE, whatever.But just leave Vengeance as it is in competitive.

Again, I'm part of the "get rid of downed state" club, I would rather just remove downstate from competitive.

@Aigleborgne.2981 said:

@Sobx.1758 said:

@Opopanax.1803 said:

@Sobx.1758 said:

@Opopanax.1803 said:

@"Yasai.3549" said:No.Too powerful.

That would make Discipline even more deep rooted into meta because it will now have too many beneficial passive acting traits that just make Warrior perform better by default.

And that's not true for other downed skills? Both "you have to wait" and "you will probably die"? Why are you taking part that's universally true for pretty much all downed skills and then try to make it seem like it's a downside for just one skill of one class?

Without trait, it is generally a death sentence in PvE, and I see warriors dying of vengeance every days, whereas they could have survived by just auto attacking or wait for revive (if anyone around).

So some players spam any skill they can off cd without thinking and that's somehow supposed to speak against the skill? If they can kill a single mob by pressing 1, then just do it like any other class does. If they can't, then get up and now they should be able to.

Compare this one to other professions, it looses to most of them.

Does it though? Are you saying you can't finish off a downed opponent when you're still standing as a warrior or am I misunderstanding something here?

Even in PvP, its value is not great as you will most likely die just after. You might down someone, but he can still be revived.

I already wrote about it in the post you're supposedly answering to. In many cases it still does way more than other downed skills do.

With traits, it is obviously better but it forces you to trait to have a good down skill.

Yes, that's the point of making choice with traits and in this case this is a "price" for potentially having a downed skill that's just in a tier of its own by nullifying being in a downed state (not that I have much against removing downstate altogether btw ;p).

I can honestly say that I've stomped my fair share of people using Vengeance, but the 25% probability is too small. Yeah I could take the trait, but I feel that the trait needs something else added on to it, especially since it competes with clearing immobilize on movement skills, which itself can be the difference in not getting downed in the first place.

@"Yasai.3549" said:Now if we are talking about a scenario where yu get downed, then yu manage to somehow down the enemy during yur downstate.There are a few Professions which straight up "win" downstate battles : And Warrior is one of them.

Only if you traited vengeance! If you did not, you will get the kill and probably die just after...

@Aigleborgne.2981 said:

@"Yasai.3549" said:Now if we are talking about a scenario where yu get downed, then yu manage to somehow down the enemy during yur downstate.There are a few Professions which straight up "win" downstate battles : And Warrior is one of them.

About 75% of the time as it were.

@Sobx.1758 said:Does it though? Are you saying you can't finish off a downed opponent when you're still standing as a warrior or am I misunderstanding something here?Sure in the case of a downed opponent, it is a different story for standing opponent that just have to kite for 15 seconds. And those seconds feel very short when you know you will die afterward.

@Sobx.1758 said:I already wrote about it in the post you're supposedly answering to. In many cases it still does way more than other downed skills do.This is exactly my point, it only does more if you trait for it. If not, it is vastly inferior to many of them because you will just gamble for your life. Other skills have less impactfull effects but they might be enough to rally without risking anything.

Vengeance conditions are too high to be valuable. To me, this down skill is only usable if you trait for it. But who would pick a trait that only enhance down state ? Let's replace vengeance by a downed burst skill, that could be enhanced by all burst traits, this would be better !

@"Aigleborgne.2981" you "accidentally" forgot to answer to half of the post. I'd think it means you understand you were wrong on those points, but somehow you're still arguing? Am I supposed to ctrlc-ctrlv what I wrote before just in hopes you'll finally respond to it, or what's the deal here?

If not, it is vastly inferior to many of them because you will just gamble for your life.

LOL. Then stay on the ground and keep pressing that "1" button "to not gamble for your life". Because when other classes stay on the ground you can't "kite" them (not that you even need to in most cases) and do with them whatever you want, right?

"it's only better when both players are in the same state" WOAH, I never in my life suspected that being alive with your whole skillbar accessible is better than a downed skill! Is this really how it's supposed to be? And yet you can stand up for 15 seconds and have full access to your skillbar and mobiltiy, while other classes can't. What's your point here? That you might kill someone from downstate because you have a stronger skill [that negates downstate] and then die making it a tie? That's kind of the point, it's so strong that it needs something to not make it in its own tier over anything else.

And btw this is LITERALLY what you wrote:

If not, it is vastly inferior to many of them because you will just gamble for your life. Other skills have less impactfull effects but they might be enough to rally without risking anything.

Ok then. It's pretty hard for me to understand how a skill can be more impactful and inferior at the same time, but... oh well. Perform whatever mental gymnastics you need in order to convince yourself you're right here, while conveniently dodging what I write.

@"Aigleborgne.2981" said:

This is exactly my point, it only does more if you trait for it. If not, it is vastly inferior to many of them because you will just gamble for your life. Other skills have less impactfull effects but they might be enough to rally without risking anything.

Vengeance conditions are too high to be valuable. To me, this down skill is only usable if you trait for it. But who would pick a trait that only enhance down state ? Let's replace vengeance by a downed burst skill, that could be enhanced by all burst traits, this would be better !

Then buff it to 100% in PvE, leave it in competitive and just delete the trait period.If the trait is so underused because of its presumed "need to have" in order to be useful as a downstate skill, then buff it for PvE and remove it period.

I've already explained this :

If yu somehow go down as a Warrior, and yur opponent is still standing, yur basically dead, it's lost, accept that yur gonna defeat.Why on earth should yu have a 50% chance to Rally if yur gonna stand up, get kited and die anyway.And if yu somehow down the enemy, then yu basically won because Vengeance getting up > the other guy lying on the down unable to get up since yu can stomp him and have a 50% chance to walk away.

Yes, other Profession has downstate skills that can Rally with less risk, but they also leave the target crippled lying in downstate while they use said skill to take effect, which in the end is still an extremely vulnerable state in competitive because it allows yu to be stomped instantly.

If yur issue is the randomness, hey how bout this :In competitive, Vengeance gets 0% chance to rally regardless if yu kill the target or not, but when yu use Vengeance, yu deal 100% more damage.

@Yasai.3549 said:In competitive, Vengeance gets 0% chance to rally regardless if yu kill the target or not, but when yu use Vengeance, yu deal 100% more damage.I can already see the suicide Arc Divider shock troopers in WvW...

Would be hilarious, would 100% do it.

@Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

Would be hilarious, would 100% do it.

Hecking yes.

@Sobx.1758 said:delete please :D

That's the idea.Delete people.

@Yasai.3549 said:

@"Lan Deathrider.5910" said:

Would be hilarious, would 100% do it.

I would run that build while blasting Warrior's of the World by Manowar. Why? Because that song makes me want to grab a big sword and swing it at things.

Link for those that don't know the song:

@Sobx.1758 said:delete please :D

I'm interested in what you said since it says in my notification that you mentioned me but I did not get a chance to see it! Don't leave me in suspense Sobx!

@Sobx.1758 said:And that's not true for other downed skills? Both "you have to wait" and "you will probably die"? Why are you taking part that's universally true for pretty much all downed skills and then try to make it seem like it's a downside for just one skill of one class?I give you that point :)

@Sobx.1758 said:So some players spam any skill they can off cd without thinking and that's somehow supposed to speak against the skill? If they can kill a single mob by pressing 1, then just do it like any other class does. If they can't, then get up and now they should be able to.

Yes, but it still shows that you should never use this untraited skill in PvE unless you know that you will kill several things and so get a real chance to rally. Other professions have stronger chance to rally with their 3 skill.

@Sobx.1758 said:Does it though? Are you saying you can't finish off a downed opponent when you're still standing as a warrior or am I misunderstanding something here?I never said it was finishing off a downed opponent ! In fact, I mostly talk about PvE...

@Sobx.1758 said:I already wrote about it in the post you're supposedly answering to. In many cases it still does way more than other downed skills do.Yes, at the cost of dying after those 15 seconds !

@Sobx.1758 said:Yes, that's the point of making choice with traits and in this case this is a "price" for potentially having a downed skill that's just in a tier of its own by nullifying being in a downed state (not that I have much against removing downstate altogether btw ;p).Really ? You still have to survive the first 20 seconds and in my experience, you often die before. And in the case of soloing a champion in PvE, vengance only works if you can finish off or kill an add, something that do not happen very often.

.> @Aigleborgne.2981 said:

@Sobx.1758 said:And that's not true for other downed skills? Both "you have to wait" and "you will probably die"? Why are you taking part that's universally true for pretty much all downed skills and then try to make it seem like it's a downside for just one skill of one class?I give you that point :)

Thanks for acknowlegding what I said :p

@Sobx.1758 said:So some players spam any skill they can off cd without thinking and that's somehow supposed to speak against the skill? If they can kill a single mob by pressing 1, then just do it like any other class does. If they can't, then get up and now they should be able to.

So it's not "never", but rather "use it when you need to" while keeping in mind that by getting much more power than other downed skills (=nullifying downstate for a period of time) you give up one of the two: making sure you get up after a kill (or multiple kills, but the more you kill the better the chances) OR one of your trait slots.

That said, I focused more on the comparison between the skills in competitive modes than in pve, where making that chance higher (or even guaranteed) wouldn't be such a huge deal. On ther other hand in pve it's easier to drop warrior's sprint for VR, so... Still seems like a valid choice in pve if for some reason you're going down fairly frequently.

@Sobx.1758 said:Does it though? Are you saying you can't finish off a downed opponent when you're still standing as a warrior or am I misunderstanding something here?I never said it was finishing off a downed opponent ! In fact, I mostly talk about PvE...

Yeah, seems we were mainly keeping in mind different modes ;p

@Sobx.1758 said:I already wrote about it in the post you're supposedly answering to. In many cases it still does way more than other downed skills do.Yes, at the cost of dying after those 15 seconds !

...or not dying, depending how many times you roll that 4-sided dice and what you actually roll into. ;)If it's about randomness, then lets go with @Yasai.3549 idea. Considering how we still have those 300icd traits ingame, I wouldn't count on getting a new trait in that place anytime soon. Or ever.

@Sobx.1758 said:Yes, that's the point of making choice with traits and in this case this is a "price" for potentially having a downed skill that's just in a tier of its own by nullifying being in a downed state (not that I have much against removing downstate altogether btw ;p).Really ? You still have to survive the first 20 seconds and in my experience, you often die before. And in the case of soloing a champion in PvE, vengance only works if you can finish off or kill an add, something that do not happen very often.

...and how does it compare to majority of other downed skills? Are we still pretending this one deserves to be so much better "just because"? Which one is so much better in this specific scenario? Ranger's LW? Any other?