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List of Tradeoffs - The Better Way to do Balance

Multicolorhipster.9751Multicolorhipster.9751 Member ✭✭✭✭
edited December 24, 2020 in Professions

Nerfs. Nerfs are boring. Nerfs are takeaways. Nerfs generally don't feel good.
Buffs. Buffs are exciting. Buffs are additions. Buffs feel good, but they're also very scawwy! UwU
But tradeoffs! Tradeoffs are buffs and nerfs in one.

Right now it's nerf or nothing. That's all balance is, is nerf, nerf, nerf. It's boring, and it takes away too much.
Worse yet, a lot of core elements get nerfed specifically to target the extreme examples; which, often just makes the entire profession weaker in general without addressing the real issue.
And while I get that nerfs are sometimes necessary towards those extreme examples that almost everyone can agree is totally broken and needs fixing, there are creative ways to do that without making everyone depressed.
AKA, the aforementioned tradeoffs. Tradeoffs are creative ways to change something that might be overperforming without rendering them totally unviable. They make the game more interesting to play and watch.

That's why I propose the focus shift less towards nerfing anything and everything and more towards adding tradeoffs where they don't exist, and editing some which do to be more meaningful.

To help, i've compiled a list of existing and non-existing tradeoffs in the game. However, also I don't know things. There's a 99.4% chance I missed something, and that you can help by correcting me. Please do. Subjective or no, a tradeoff is a potentially great change that can open up tons of new counterplay and new ways for players to express themselves, and they are imo; the magnum opus, the creme de le creme of the balance team/person/dartboardinsomebody'sbasement and should be encouraged.

You can also post a comment on why you disagree and how the nerfs in their current form are actually very good for the game. I will probably respond, but there's a 50-50 chance my response will just be some completely unrelated balance rant. Forum warrior life B) 👍 Anyway...

List of Currently Existing Tradeoffs:

Tempest: | Gain: Overloads Loss: Increased CD on attunement swaps for Overloads
Borezerker: | Gain: Primal bursts, +300 to power/condi Loss: Normal bursts, -300 toughness
Spellbreaker: | Gain: Full Counter Loss: Can only do level 1 bursts
Druid: | Gain: Celestial Avatar Loss: Reduced pet stats
Soulbeast: | Gain: Beastmode Loss: Cannot swap pets
Scourge: | Gain: Shades Loss: Cannot use shroud
Firebrand: | Gain: Tomes with lots of additional skills Loss: Tomes have increased CD's compared to core virtues.
Deadeye: | Gain: Mark Loss: Steal-o-step
Scrapper: | Gain: Barrier on damage Loss: -180 Vitality
Mirage: | Gain: Mirage Cloak/Ambushes Loss: 1 Dodge man

Like I said before, some of these tradeoffs are unbalanced compared to others. Some need to be more meaningful, though that's entirely subjective and I already fear for my safety having just listed them off, so i'm definitely not going to go so far as to rate their effectiveness. Feel free to do that though.

These are only even in the sense that they're 1 for 1, or 2 for 2 gains for what the elite spec takes away.

Onto the elites without equal tradeoffs, or that just lack one altogether. Objectively.

Elite Specs without Tradeoffs or Unbalanced Tradeoffs:

(EDIT)Weaver: | No Tradeoff.(1-0) I was wrong on this one. Gain: Dual attunements, faster swap times, free attributes just for being a Weaver. Loss: Even though attunements swap faster, dual skills and off-hand attunement skills take an extra 4 seconds to fully recharge. So its more like an 8s CD. Kind of. Sort of.
Dragonhunter: | Gain: F1 and F2 do more than core does at the same CD. Loss: F3 has a longer CD than core. (2-1)
Daredevil: | Gain: Lower CD steal, endurance on steal, unblockable steal, and 3 dodges. Loss: 600 less range on steal than core.(4-1)
Holosmith: | You can overheat Just kidding, no tradeoff. (1-0)
Harold: | Gain: 10% Max health for being Harold. F2 skill for 5 Legends. Loss: Core rev's F2 skill for 4 legends.(2-0)
Renegod: | No tradeoff. (1-0)

Elite Specs That I am Not Sure About:

Reaper: | Gain?: Reaper shroud. Loss: Range on Shroud. Shroud drains faster.
Chrono: | Gain?: Marginally different shatter skills...? Loss: Distort becomes Continuum Split which can't be recharged with mesmer skills and has over 200% of core's CD.
(EDIT)Weaver: | I actually know very little about Weaver. There was a tradeoff, and while I still think the gains somewhat outweigh the takeaway; what with attunements swapping faster, Dual-attuning, and the attribute increase, I can't leave it solely as unbalanced having been wrong.
Tempted to say (3-1) unbalanced otherwise.

Did I miss anything? Have any suggestions? Feel free to let me know. I'm sure our government is listening too, and will take everything on here seriously.

I will also post a follow-up comment explaining some of these choices, if you care.

Ranked DuoQ 😡👉🚪
Patch-culture is awful
Nerfs should be reserved for extreme cases and only done in creative ways that make the game more interesting to play and watch.

<1

Comments

  • Multicolorhipster.9751Multicolorhipster.9751 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 23, 2020

    This is that comment.

    The existing tradeoffs are pretty objective. The subjective part is whether the tradeoff placed on whatever elite spec actually holds some meaning or not.
    When people are picking an elite spec to play there should be some sort of decision to be made like: "Sure, this elite spec is strong, but the drawback is pretty risky..."
    Enough to make the choice between core, elite spec 1, and elite spec 2 an actual choice rather than: "Nah, this stronger. I'm just going to pick this one."

    Onto the 'No tradeoff side'
    Although I do want to preface this by saying this doesn't make any class 'op.' It's just pointing out that they lack an equal tradeoff.

    (Weaver: There's no sort of stat debuff or penalty to taking weaver. Attunemnts swap faster, you get two, and you get free attribute increases with it. Tempest at least has the increased CD's on overloads. There really is no drawback on paper. Again, the actually effectiveness is out of my hands. I refuse to touch that.
    Edit: Thank you to the lovely @Megametzler.5729 for pointing out in factual correctness that Weaver does actually have a tradeoff. Sorry to believers who were betting on that .6% chance that I got everything right.

    Weaver does actually have a pretty big penalty with the whole 4s CD on 3 -5 after swapping. With that, i'm moving weaver to the unsure section as well.
    You get two attunements at once, you get free attribute bonuses just for doing so, but there is a very real takeaway to the attunements swapping quicker. Does that counter two at once? Is it 2-1, 3-1? I don't know. It exists between attunements, it can exist between arbitrary categories too.

    Dragonhunter: I actually didn't know that spear and wings have the same CD as core virtues until I looked this up. You learn something new everyday. But the Dragonhunter version of these skills just does more. Objectively.

    Daredevil: They tried by changing steal to swipe. It still does more than core though on paper.

    Holosmith: Overheating isn't really a tradeoff. A tradeoff is a drawback to picking an elite spec. They don't operate on the chance that something might happen if the player messes up playing that elite spec.
    As an added bonus, i'll talk about Scrapper and Holo losing core F5's because I hear the people who play them can be pretty technical ;)
    Sure, they both lose out on those core engi F5 skills, but both gain profession mechanics in place; Gyro and forge. You'd essentially just be adding in another trade to count, bringing Scrapper to 2-2 and Holosmith to 2-1 because there is no other tradeoff to Holosmith if you even count that.

    Harold: Not saying that Harold is overpowered. Harold is a nice guy, but he does more than other Core Revs.

    Renegod: Gains and F3 and F4 skill compared to core rev. There's also no sort of takeaway to playing Renegod. Renegod simply is.

    Reaper: I think Reaper could potentially fall in either. I feel like an additional gain to being melee and shroud draining faster would be increased damage, but they also lost a lot of damage. Like wheeew. That's a real nice executioner skill they do. Yesterday it did a whopping 76ish damage on crit. I think that's a unique situation where the bad balance has sort of muddied the potentially good balance. I was leaning towards putting this on the unbalanced side(1-2) 1 gain for 2 takeaways.

    Chrono: Similar case to reaper. I think the constant nerfs have sort of taken away what's meant to make Chrono unique. I don't play it, but reading up on the shatter skills they're really very similar except for F4. I was tempted to put this in the unbalanced section(0-1.) 0 Gain, 1 takeaway.

    Ranked DuoQ 😡👉🚪
    Patch-culture is awful
    Nerfs should be reserved for extreme cases and only done in creative ways that make the game more interesting to play and watch.

  • @Megametzler.5729 said:
    Weaver has a major trade off. You cannot swap into another attunemend for 4s, making skills 3-5 inaccessible for quick reactions.

    Oh kitten, u rite... uhh.... You didn't see anything.

    That's actually very helpful though, thank you. I'll make some adjusterinos.

    Chrono's trade off is weird indeed, but a pretty hefty one.

    Yeah, I still don't know where to put that thing.

    Ranked DuoQ 😡👉🚪
    Patch-culture is awful
    Nerfs should be reserved for extreme cases and only done in creative ways that make the game more interesting to play and watch.

  • Arheundel.6451Arheundel.6451 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Multicolorhipster.9751 said:
    This is that comment.

    The existing tradeoffs are pretty objective. The subjective part is whether the tradeoff placed on whatever elite spec actually holds some meaning or not.
    When people are picking an elite spec to play there should be some sort of decision to be made like: "Sure, this elite spec is strong, but the drawback is pretty risky..."
    Enough to make the choice between core, elite spec 1, and elite spec 2 an actual choice rather than: "Nah, this stronger. I'm just going to pick this one."

    Onto the 'No tradeoff side'
    Although I do want to preface this by saying this doesn't make any class 'op.' It's just pointing out that they lack an equal tradeoff.

    Weaver: There's no sort of stat debuff or penalty to taking weaver. Attunemnts swap faster, you get two, and you get free attribute increases with it. Tempest at least has the increased CD's on overloads. There really is no drawback on paper. Again, the actually effectiveness is out of my hands. I refuse to touch that.

    Dragonhunter: I actually didn't know that spear and wings have the same CD as core virtues until I looked this up. You learn something new everyday. But the Dragonhunter version of these skills just does more. Objectively.

    Daredevil: They tried by changing steal to swipe. It still does more than core though on paper.

    Holosmith: Overheating isn't really a tradeoff. A tradeoff is a drawback to picking an elite spec. They don't operate on the chance that something might happen if the player messes up playing that elite spec.
    As an added bonus, i'll talk about Scrapper and Holo losing core F5's because I hear the people who play them can be pretty technical ;)
    Sure, they both lose out on those core engi F5 skills, but both gain profession mechanics in place; Gyro and forge. You'd essentially just be adding in another trade to count, bringing Scrapper to 2-2 and Holosmith to 2-1 because there is no other tradeoff to Holosmith if you even count that.

    Harold: Not saying that Harold is overpowered. Harold is a nice guy, but he does more than other Core Revs.

    Renegod: Gains and F3 and F4 skill compared to core rev. There's also no sort of takeaway to playing Renegod. Renegod simply is.

    Reaper: I think Reaper could potentially fall in either. I feel like an additional gain to being melee and shroud draining faster would be increased damage, but they also lost a lot of damage. Like wheeew. That's a real nice executioner skill they do. Yesterday it did a whopping 76ish damage on crit. I think that's a unique situation where the bad balance has sort of muddied the potentially good balance. I was leaning towards putting this on the unbalanced side(1-2) 1 gain for 2 takeaways.

    Chrono: Similar case to reaper. I think the constant nerfs have sort of taken away what's meant to make Chrono unique. I don't play it, but reading up on the shatter skills they're really very similar except for F4. I was tempted to put this in the unbalanced section(0-1.) 0 Gain, 1 takeaway.

    The only question you should ask yourself is : can the core variant of the corresponding class deal with each respective elite?
    -The answer is yes on everything save Holosmith where core engineer stands little to no chance against

    -A wise man once said- "Fight cheese with cheese or be cheesed in return, mind not those who will accuse you of being a cheese as they like cheese themselves"

  • Megametzler.5729Megametzler.5729 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Multicolorhipster.9751 said:

    @Megametzler.5729 said:
    Weaver has a major trade off. You cannot swap into another attunemend for 4s, making skills 3-5 inaccessible for quick reactions.

    Oh kitten, u rite... uhh.... You didn't see anything.

    That's actually very helpful though, thank you. I'll make some adjusterinos.
    (...)

    Don't even know what we were talking about! I like the constructive way you started this.

    Weaver: That there already is a trade off makes it hard to adjust. I would mainly focus on weapon and dual skills here. I still think the fire traitline needs to be adjusted (more egocentric, maybe iCD, ...), but this is an issue for both tempest and weaver.

    Chrono: Well, I kind of agree that chrono does not have any in-build advantages. Shatters are changed, but not necessarily better. CS is great, but the loss of distortion hurt chrono so much. An option would be to increase some of chrono's sustain with wells or another trait, but nobody wants chrono bunkr times back, so... well, I will leave this to mesmer mains.

    Reaper: I feel like reaper has a good trade off. The two shrouds have very different playstyles, maybe they could improve on this? Make reaper more focused on close combat and burst, core shroud on conditions and bruiser gameplay? Again, I am not too deep into necro to make good suggestions.

    For most of the other classes I totally agree with your analysis. Especially revenant and holo need changes here.

  • Armen.1483Armen.1483 Member ✭✭✭
    edited December 23, 2020

    Mirage trade off is weird too. The mirage clock is way worse than a normal dodge.
    What about chrono. Chrono gets a continum split and a big cc well which are strong skills but loses the distort and also chrono's f1 shatter is weaker than core mesmer's f1 in a pvp scenario.

  • foste.3098foste.3098 Member ✭✭✭

    Borezerker: | Gain: Primal bursts, +300 to power/condi Loss: Normal bursts, -300 toughness
    Daredevil: | Gain: Lower CD steal, endurance on steal, unblockable steal, and 3 dodges. Loss: 600 less range on steal than core.(4-1)
    Holosmith: | You can overheat Just kidding, no tradeoff. (1-0)
    Renegod: | No tradeoff. (1-0)

    Your view on what is and isn't a tradeoff is skewed somewhat, which is best exhibited by the specs above.
    The elite spec tradeoff is only what the 1st minor trait in the elite line does, and nothing else, which means the tradeoffs are the following:
    Burstzerker - gain berzerk & primal bursts but loses normal burst skills
    Dogedevil - gain 3rd dodge but gets steal replaced with swipe
    Yolosmith - gain photonforge but lose the toolbelt 5 skill (same for scraper, he gains function gyro and lose toolbelt 5)
    Rangerwanabe - gains new f skills but lose the core revenant f ability

    To me it seems that this is how anet views tradeoffs, a button on your ui that replaces another button. Because of this not all tradeoffs are equal across the board, for example dragon hunter and firebrand elite replacements of f skills are way better than core; same could be said for holo, and both revenant elites, and daredevil with steal -> swipe, but let's be honest daredevil is carried almost exclusively by unhindered combatant.

  • Armen.1483Armen.1483 Member ✭✭✭

    Oh about nerfs. 1 class nerfed means other classes buffed. You've seen thief nerfed, now mesmers are coming back to game and so on. What is bad about nerfs is that it tones down the overall damage in the game and makes players play more bunker (example: that annoying zoo scourges). On the other hand buffing does the opposite and is usually considered more dangerous to do to balance any pvp game. Because by buffing 1 class you make all other classes weaker and can potentially make that class brokenly op and everyone will just pick that class and neglect others, however nerfing 1 class worst scenario will be: that nerfed class is just brokenly bad and won't be played until fixed. This is why pvp developpers usuaally take the nerf part. I hope that makes sense. Now I understand that from a point of view of a warrior player you might be frustrated that war is kinda weak right now, but if other classes got nerfed too war will be playable again. We are kinda stuck in necro, rev and engi meta right now, if those got nerfed, game will be more balanced overall. So I am for the nerfs if they are executed well.

  • Jekkt.6045Jekkt.6045 Member ✭✭✭
    edited December 23, 2020

    i'll repeat what i said in a different thread. trade offs for elite specs aren't really trade offs they are just there because they suck at balance and design.

    an elite spec wouldn't need a trade off if it was actually an elite spec specialized in something. instead it's just core+. if an elite spec gets a completeley different mechanic that helps it, for example, being an offensive spec where core had a mechanic that made it defensive, then that's the tradeoff, only being able to be offensive.

    we basically just have core = i slap. elite spec = i slap harder. then they add some random arbitrary "trade off".

    a short example for a smart trade off would be: core ranger access to pets. druid avatar + only a sprite for a pet that can be sent to allies to heal. instead we have druid pets have 10% less stats...

  • @foste.3098 said:
    Your view on what is and isn't a tradeoff is skewed somewhat, which is best exhibited by the specs above.
    The elite spec tradeoff is only what the 1st minor trait in the elite line does, and nothing else, which means the tradeoffs are the following:
    Burstzerker - gain berzerk & primal bursts but loses normal burst skills
    Dogedevil - gain 3rd dodge but gets steal replaced with swipe
    Yolosmith - gain photonforge but lose the toolbelt 5 skill (same for scraper, he gains function gyro and lose toolbelt 5)
    Rangerwanabe - gains new f skills but lose the core revenant f ability

    To be fair, if a tradeoff is going to exist in an elite spec the trait that does so is almost always the first. There's quite a few that have a 2nd or even 3rd built into their profession mechanics or one of the other automatic traits(like zerker for example) but I tried to list those all. If I missed any, please let me know for all our sakes.

    To me it seems that this is how anet views tradeoffs, a button on your ui that replaces another button. Because of this not all tradeoffs are equal across the board, for example dragon hunter and firebrand elite replacements of f skills are way better than core; same could be said for holo, and both revenant elites, and daredevil with steal -> swipe, but let's be honest daredevil is carried almost exclusively by unhindered combatant.

    @Armen.1483 said:
    Mirage trade off is weird too. The mirage clock is way worse than a normal dodge.
    What about chrono. Chrono gets a continum split and a big cc well which are strong skills but loses the distort and also chrono's f1 shatter is weaker than core mesmer's f1 in a pvp scenario.

    Good time to mention i'm also only going by what you get automatically just for taking the elite spec.

    Things like the gravity well and unhindered combat have to be taken manually, and that honestly probably warrants an entire separate post comparing elite spec skills/traits to individual skills/traits, but I have unfortunately suddenly come down with a serious case of carpal tunnel syndrome so for the sake of my weary and quickly deteriorating body and mind, i'm only listing what you get just by being one of these. Not what you pick as well.

    @Widmo.3186 said:
    Tradeoff is a nice word, but tbh idk what should be its definition. Lets compare it to the cars, its a tradeoff if u change better engine for better gearbox, but is it a tradeoff if u change one good engine into another one, that was created just by different brand? I wouldnt say so.

    Imo from your list what is a real tradeoff are

    • zerker (straight forward less toughness)
    • scourge (different playstyle, two specs with shrouds, one with barriers)
    • firebrand (not so sure about this one, but yeah, tomes grants so much to the table compared to core/DH that you can put it as a tradeoff)
    • mirage (probably the best example, mirage cloak for one dodge)
    • chrono (different shatters, no distortion for...idk, for something)

    Rest is pretty much just a straightforward boost from core with minimal, almost invisible disadvantage. Like cmon, DE? Its a different playstyle, by default should be played with rifle, thats why it has mark instead of steal. Soulbeast? Cmon, you cant swap pets, but beastmode grants so much that basically youre the second pet, same kitten. Spellbroken? FC is your other burst. Scrapper? Pff, compare to core. Tempest? Marginal longer cds but you get overload and compared to core, straight boost. Druid? By default should be a healer, ended as immob spam clown, not really any lose.

    I appreciate your feedback. I agree for the most part tbh, and I want to tell you how much I agree with you personally, but alas; just trying to be objective listing these.

    The hope is that together; as a community, we can reasonably come together and agree on what exists as an option and then what exists as a straight upgrade. From there, we can think of better tradeoffs to either add to a class, or how to edit existing ones to make them more meaningful trades. =)

    After all, a tradeoff is both a nerf and a buff at once. I'm sure we can all find a way to apply this to every class without anyone saying "too op, pls nerf" or trying to spit venom at eachother.

    Ranked DuoQ 😡👉🚪
    Patch-culture is awful
    Nerfs should be reserved for extreme cases and only done in creative ways that make the game more interesting to play and watch.

  • Your revenant analysis is objectively wrong:

    Herald:
    1) Herald’s +10% health bonus is a regular minor trait, not part of the “trade off” trait
    2) Herald trades Ancient Echo for Facet of Nature. This is a direct trade off. Echo isn’t a bad skill, and certainly better than some of the FoN skills (looking at you Glint). By ditching core you trade higher energy access for FoN.

    Renegade:
    1) again Renegade trades Ancient Echo for Heroic Command, Citadel Bombardment, and Orders from Above and Kalla’s Fervor. None of these skills are particularly OP and Renegade would likely be better served with Ancient Echo instead of all 3 of them if it could choose to not give it up. Citadel Bombardment is useless in PvP most of the time. Heroic command is extra might which is relatively redundant on ren. Orders from above isn’t awful, but Rev already has low CDs anyway so alacrity is only somewhat good on it.
    2) Kalla’s Fervor is the most non-trade off aspect of Ren since it doesn’t replace anything and is only added
    3) yes Ren gets a lot for it’s tradeoff, but this isn’t inherently a bad thing or unbalanced. While the class is performing well now it wasn’t for years so clearly the extra bonuses you get for taking Ren over Herald or Core weren’t enough to justify using Ren. None of the trade offs are major reasons why Ren is being used now and they’re fairly well balanced already

    P.s. yes Ren objectively has a trade off even if you don’t think it does. And Herald’s trade off is near equivalent and not as unbalanced or nonexistent like you claim

  • Yasai.3549Yasai.3549 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @LucianTheAngelic.7054 said:

    Renegade:
    1) again Renegade trades Ancient Echo for Heroic Command, Citadel Bombardment, and Orders from Above and Kalla’s Fervor. None of these skills are particularly OP and Renegade would likely be better served with Ancient Echo instead of all 3 of them if it could choose to not give it up. Citadel Bombardment is useless in PvP most of the time. Heroic command is extra might which is relatively redundant on ren. Orders from above isn’t awful, but Rev already has low CDs anyway so alacrity is only somewhat good on it.

    I'm inclined to disagree with this.
    Orders from Above is the one defining part of Renegade which makes it still heavily lodged into the PvE meta.
    If not for Renegade's ability to use this off CD and apply Alacrity to allies, Renegade would have fell through the floor from disuse long time ago.

    In fact, this is actually one of the biggest problems I see with Especs in general : They always introduce one core meta shifting mechanic which MUST be used for optimal performance.
    If yu don't use the Espec, yur build doesn't offer this optimization, and it is pushed down a tier in terms of usefulness.

    I think the entire idea of tradeoffs is wrongly approached.
    Especs are also wrongly approached too.

    Elite specs should be all about focusing and streamlining the Profession through alterations to the Profession's mechanics to end up with a Unique and sometimes archetypal playstyle.

    What we had for the longest time are Especs being UPGRADES to Core, which should have never been a thing.
    Now that we are using tradeoffs to balance the Especs, its no frickin wonder that it feels "weaker", because all Anet is doing is removing instead of what they should have done in the first place, which is altering.

    The only Profession which I can say does Especs the best is Necromancer, because each iteration of Shroud from the Especs are unique and very different from Core, making Core hold its own in situations where the Especs do not shine.
    But as a result of this, Necromancer is also the one Profession which is held back the most by its own mechanics when it comes to PvE, as the lack of Espec complexity makes their performance subpar when compared to other Profession Especs.

    Then we have, on the flipside, Engineer where Core is vastly outmatched when compared to their two Especs.

    My consensus is that Especs as a whole needs to be relooked at, and Anet needs to decide if they want Especs to be power creep which will stomp the hell out of Core, or if they want to balance them and make them "situationally more powerful than Core"

    If I play a stupid build, I deserve to die.
    If I beat people on a stupid build, I deserve to get away with it.

  • @Armen.1483 said:
    Oh about nerfs. 1 class nerfed means other classes buffed. You've seen thief nerfed, now mesmers are coming back to game and so on. What is bad about nerfs is that it tones down the overall damage in the game and makes players play more bunker (example: that annoying zoo scourges). On the other hand buffing does the opposite and is usually considered more dangerous to do to balance any pvp game. Because by buffing 1 class you make all other classes weaker and can potentially make that class brokenly op and everyone will just pick that class and neglect others, however nerfing 1 class worst scenario will be: that nerfed class is just brokenly bad and won't be played until fixed. This is why pvp developpers usuaally take the nerf part. I hope that makes sense.

    That's what makes effective tradeoffs so great really. If not in this game, other games, or actual competitive sports. It's a nerf and a buff. It pleases both crowds and (if not executed poorly so as to be meaningless) opens up new creative strategy.

    I mostly disagree with the whole 'balanced' thing though. It's usually entirely subjective, and a hand-on, way too overcommitted to balance approach usually kills games. Like, if a game is balanced; that's great, really, but if the price for balance is fun then it doesn't pay
    .
    Maybe it's just me, but I don't see anything fun about hard nerfs. It just seems like a way to appease the whiners who really aren't going to be satisfied regardless of what happens. They just live patch-to-patch going on and on about balance long after anyone with any passion for the game(be it player or developer) has long since jumped ship.

    Now I understand that from a point of view of a warrior player you might be frustrated that war is kinda weak right now, but if other classes got nerfed too war will be playable again. We are kinda stuck in necro, rev and engi meta right now, if those got nerfed, game will be more balanced overall. So I am for the nerfs if they are executed well.

    Oh honey. I'm not a warrior player. I'm a forum Warrior like I say. That's my profession. I might drop in for a daily ever other week, but i'm usually not paying attention when I do. The game is mad boring now.

    See, the real endgame is right here, endlessly complaining about PvP rather than playing it. I don't even care, i'll wear it on my sleeve. Forum Warrior mains unite!

    @Jekkt.6045 said:
    i'll repeat what i said in a different thread. trade offs for elite specs aren't really trade offs they are just there because they suck at balance and design.

    an elite spec wouldn't need a trade off if it was actually an elite spec specialized in something. instead it's just core+. if an elite spec gets a completeley different mechanic that helps it, for example, being an offensive spec where core had a mechanic that made it defensive, then that's the tradeoff, only being able to be offensive.

    That's actually a very good idea I think. Elite specializations being specialized(Holy kitten, my mind just went places repeating that back in my head) would be pretty good for the game in practice, so long as they remain as options.

    Still think they'd need some sort of drawback in a lot of cases as a lot of core classes can fill multiple rolls. Don't want to completely invalidate a way to play.

    we basically just have core = i slap. elite spec = i slap harder. then they add some random arbitrary "trade off".

    a short example for a smart trade off would be: core ranger access to pets. druid avatar + only a sprite for a pet that can be sent to allies to heal. instead we have druid pets have 10% less stats...

    Yeaaaah, it's safe to say a lot of those drawbacks are kind of meaningless. They're a blend of not enough and too much compared to others.

    Still the smartest changes imo. Any creature with some frontal lobe development can say "too op, pls nerf" but only the most Machiavellian of forum Warriors can come up with "Druid but the pet does less damage." You're right though, there is a lot of room for improvement there and I appreciate the suggestion. We just need one of those to the other 17 and we're golden.

    Ranked DuoQ 😡👉🚪
    Patch-culture is awful
    Nerfs should be reserved for extreme cases and only done in creative ways that make the game more interesting to play and watch.

  • Khalisto.5780Khalisto.5780 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Somethings i have nothing to do while im at work and i come here on forums. I definitely need to fill thoae spacea with another things

  • @LucianTheAngelic.7054 said:
    Your revenant analysis is objectively wrong:

    Herald:
    1) Herald’s +10% health bonus is a regular minor trait, not part of the “trade off” trait

    Yeah, that's because it doesn't have a tradeoff. If you're named Harold they just give you 10% health just 'cus.

    2) Herald trades Ancient Echo for Facet of Nature. This is a direct trade off. Echo isn’t a bad skill, and certainly better than some of the FoN skills (looking at you Glint). By ditching core you trade higher energy access for FoN.

    Renegade:
    1) again Renegade trades Ancient Echo for Heroic Command, Citadel Bombardment, and Orders from Above and Kalla’s Fervor. None of these skills are particularly OP and Renegade would likely be better served with Ancient Echo instead of all 3 of them if it could choose to not give it up. Citadel Bombardment is useless in PvP most of the time. Heroic command is extra might which is relatively redundant on ren. Orders from above isn’t awful, but Rev already has low CDs anyway so alacrity is only somewhat good on it.
    2) Kalla’s Fervor is the most non-trade off aspect of Ren since it doesn’t replace anything and is only added
    3) yes Ren gets a lot for it’s tradeoff, but this isn’t inherently a bad thing or unbalanced. While the class is performing well now it wasn’t for years so clearly the extra bonuses you get for taking Ren over Herald or Core weren’t enough to justify using Ren. None of the trade offs are major reasons why Ren is being used now and they’re fairly well balanced already

    P.s. yes Ren objectively has a trade off even if you don’t think it does. And Herald’s trade off is near equivalent and not as unbalanced or nonexistent like you claim

    Ah, yes. I'm objectively wrong because they aren't OP.

    ???

    Ranked DuoQ 😡👉🚪
    Patch-culture is awful
    Nerfs should be reserved for extreme cases and only done in creative ways that make the game more interesting to play and watch.

  • For starters, this is a cross game mode discussion and is probably better parked under the profession tab :wink: That said the relevant Devs are more likely to see it here...

    For those nitpicking over what is or is not a trade off, anything on the minor traits should get lumped into the discussion, as they are what comes with the e-spec as a baseline. These are not even across the specs and are a part of the e-spec's chassis and some of which impose penalties in addition to what they offer as boons. For example: Scrapper's vitality penalty and Berserker's toughness penalty.

    My perspective:
    Berserker: Gains Berserk Mode, gains quickness and superspeed upon entering Berserk Mode, gains Primal Bursts, gains +300 power/condi in Berserk Mode. Most of those are from the Minors, but they are tied to Berserk Mode and Berserk Mode is the mechanic gained, thus they are part of the mechanic. What the trade off is is -300 toughness, loss of core F1s, and the inability to use Bursts at all unless you are in Berserk Mode. Not a very balanced tradeoff, too much was cut away for what was gained. If the tradeoffs where balanced like other e-specs there would be no stat penalty, and Berserker would still have core F1s, but would not access them while in Berserk mode. Berserker is probably to best example of an e-spec that takes more away than it gives in return.
    Spellbreaker Gain Full Counter. Gain power and ferocity when you cc/remove boons. CCs also remove boons. Trade off is no T2 or T3 bursts. This one is a fairly balanced tradeoff.

    Firebrand: Gain 15 new skills. Gain quickness when you access/put away those skills. Quickness gives you +450 stats with no negatives. If Berserker were to be a template then Quickness would have a -225 penalty on a stat somewhere. Tradeoff: according to the Guardian sub forum its loss of instant cast F1-F3... Honestly by gaining 15 new skills that are superior to the old 3 skills I have to call BS on that argument.
    DH Gain superior versions of Core F1-F3. F3 F1 and F2 have cast times, F3 does not. F3 has increased CD. Blocking an attack charges F1. Gain increased damage based on distance to target. Tradeoff: according to the Guardian sub forum its loss of instant cast F1-F3... As someone who plays a DH I can honestly say there is no real tradeoff.

    Reaper Gain Reaper Shroud. Gain Chill duration increase and damage versus chilled foes. Chill on Feared foes. Tradeoff: Melee versus a ranged shroud, and shroud degenerates faster. For me, as someone who plays a Reaper, I do not feel like there is a tradeoff here. It feels like a straight upgrade, but that is also because Reaper Shroud suites my playstyle more than core so this is subjective really. Still could be a larger tradeoff here, or its possible that what counts as a trade off for other classes (glares in Berserker) are too steep in comparison.
    Scourge Gain Shades. Gain Concentration and Expertise per shade active (hey look again with no negative stats...). Gain reduced damage per active shade. Tradeoff: No shroud. This one is an actual tradeoff given how shroud grants so much damage mitigation.

    I'm not going to go through all the specs, but you get the drift.

    I will call out Soulbeast though (again I play one of those too). Because Beast Mode, and this is what you are gaining, counts you as the pet as well there are NUMEROUS trait synergies, especially via Beast Mastery that give a butt load of stats and increased damage on top of the stats gained from the pet archetype. I realize there are reasons for it, however these interactions create something broken in the end. Better thing would be to remove the added stats from the pet archetype since you can gain stats from Beast Mastery. We're talking an extra 725 attribute points in addition to +30% move speed when in Beast Mode, with no penalty other then not being able to swap pets. If Berserker were to be the template Soulbeast would need -360 stats somewhere to 'balance' it.

    Before people think I am advocating for massive stat nerfs on a few classes, I'm not. I'm advocating for Berserker and Scrapper to lose their stat penalties simply for taking a traitline. Although, if such penalties have to exists, then stat tradeoffs need to start being rolled out.

  • Megametzler.5729Megametzler.5729 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Multicolorhipster.9751 said:

    @LucianTheAngelic.7054 said:
    Your revenant analysis is objectively wrong:

    Herald:
    1) Herald’s +10% health bonus is a regular minor trait, not part of the “trade off” trait

    Yeah, that's because it doesn't have a tradeoff. If you're named Harold they just give you 10% health just 'cus.

    2) Herald trades Ancient Echo for Facet of Nature. This is a direct trade off. Echo isn’t a bad skill, and certainly better than some of the FoN skills (looking at you Glint). By ditching core you trade higher energy access for FoN.

    Renegade:
    1) again Renegade trades Ancient Echo for Heroic Command, Citadel Bombardment, and Orders from Above and Kalla’s Fervor. None of these skills are particularly OP and Renegade would likely be better served with Ancient Echo instead of all 3 of them if it could choose to not give it up. Citadel Bombardment is useless in PvP most of the time. Heroic command is extra might which is relatively redundant on ren. Orders from above isn’t awful, but Rev already has low CDs anyway so alacrity is only somewhat good on it.
    2) Kalla’s Fervor is the most non-trade off aspect of Ren since it doesn’t replace anything and is only added
    3) yes Ren gets a lot for it’s tradeoff, but this isn’t inherently a bad thing or unbalanced. While the class is performing well now it wasn’t for years so clearly the extra bonuses you get for taking Ren over Herald or Core weren’t enough to justify using Ren. None of the trade offs are major reasons why Ren is being used now and they’re fairly well balanced already

    P.s. yes Ren objectively has a trade off even if you don’t think it does. And Herald’s trade off is near equivalent and not as unbalanced or nonexistent like you claim

    Ah, yes. I'm objectively wrong because they aren't OP.

    ???

    Well, I do agree herald and renegade do have trade offs. However, they have no major impact on the viability of the builds, for example, assassin gives life steal on herald and unblockable on core. On renegade, the utilities seem more team fight oriented.

    That might give an idea how renegade skills - including shortbow - should be adjusted: Team fights.

    However, it also means revenant's issues lie not with their elite specs' trade offs. But instead, you have to analyze why core power rev is not really strong but power herald is? Why is renegod viable, is it only because of shortbow? How can you force it into a team fighting role?

    But I am not sure whether you can (or need to or should) tweak the profession/specialisation mechanics to do this.

  • Ragnar.4257Ragnar.4257 Member ✭✭✭
    edited December 23, 2020

    This is an incredibly superficial analysis, it's like saying that 3c > 1$, because 3>1.

    It also misses some of the most important benefits/drawbacks of some of the elites, as well as missing the access to additional weapons and utilities, which in same cases is minimal but in others is game-changing.

    And perhaps the most important one, which not many people talk about, is that by taking an elite you are locking yourself out of one of the core traitlines. For some professions this isn't so bad, but for others this is a massive sacrifice.

  • Armen.1483Armen.1483 Member ✭✭✭

    @Multicolorhipster.9751 said:

    @Armen.1483 said:
    Mirage trade off is weird too. The mirage clock is way worse than a normal dodge.
    What about chrono. Chrono gets a continum split and a big cc well which are strong skills but loses the distort and also chrono's f1 shatter is weaker than core mesmer's f1 in a pvp scenario.

    Good time to mention i'm also only going by what you get automatically just for taking the elite spec.

    Things like the gravity well and unhindered combat have to be taken manually, and that honestly probably warrants an entire separate post comparing elite spec skills/traits to individual skills/traits, but I have unfortunately suddenly come down with a serious case of carpal tunnel syndrome so for the sake of my weary and quickly deteriorating body and mind, i'm only listing what you get just by being one of these. Not what you pick as well.

    What are you talking about utility skills and traits is like 80% of the elite spec. Those skills/traits are what make the elite spec an elite spec. It is more important than f1-4 skills. You pick to be a class to just pick their skills/traitlines. It makes most difference only there and only there can be tradeoffs, not just in f1-f4. If we gonna make a separate post about the traits and skills and leave this one to just talk about f skills, we could just delete this all. You can't pick an elite traitline and leave traits unchecked. BTW the reason that elite specs change some mechanics of the class is defined by the 1st passive trait of the respective elite traitline. So if we are not talking about this, there is nothing left to talk about.

    @Multicolorhipster.9751 said:

    Maybe it's just me, but I don't see anything fun about hard nerfs. It just seems like a way to appease the whiners who really aren't going to be satisfied regardless of what happens. They just live patch-to-patch going on and on about balance long after anyone with any passion for the game(be it player or developer) has long since jumped ship.

    I still don't get it though. I mean what is the difference in hard nerfs or hard buffs at this point ? Do you mean you'd rather see a rework than a tweak in numbers ? Totally agree if that's the case. But probably not gonna happen. I find it more fun to play the PVP when there is nothing that has ultimate advantage against everything else. It is just boring to play with or against. For me it is more pleasant to play PVP now with engi and thief being a lil bit more managable now. You can actually contest them now. Nerfs to engi and thief made the game more fun at least for me.

  • Kuma.1503Kuma.1503 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 23, 2020

    Trade-offs are a good way to do balance. There are multiple ways that you can do them, and some will feel more natural than others.

    Option 1: Remove some core functionality from Elite.

    This is the option most people on the forums opt for when discussing elites with no trade-off. Remove toolbelts from Holo, Remove virtues from firebrand, remove a pet from soulbeast, ect.

    While these certainly do the job of creating trade-offs that are felt, they also have the unfortunate side-effect of dumbing down the class. These trade-offs are the antithesis of fun. You may have spent hours practicing combos utilizing these skills, only to have them taken away from you. Moreover, these classes can become broken again due to power dip, resulting in a spec that is both just as, if not more broken than before, and twice as brain-dead.

    Virdict: Avoid these where possible

    Option 2: Making Elite specs side-grades rather than upgrades.

    Necro does this better than any other class. Every Elite spec gains a different variation of shroud. Core Necro has the tankiest and longest lasting shroud, making it the best choice for bunker builds. Reaper has a shorter shroud than core, but with stronger abilities. This makes it a weaker option as a bunker, but a stronger option as a bruiser/dps.
    Scourge loses shroud entirely, but gains a powerful barrier (which still procs shroud traits). Notably, this lets access all of their utilities while within "shroud". They also gain a significant buff to their AoE and support capabilities. The end result is a spec that is far more vulnerable to focus than core, but much more valuable as a support.

    Virdict: This is a great way to do trade-offs if done well.

    Which Elite Specs could benefit from this type of trade-off?

    Scrapper. Get rid of impact savant's vitality loss. Scrapper should be a durable spec, and the vitality reduction works counterproductively to that. Replace toolbelt skills with Gyros. Scrapper will lose out on the versatility of core Engi, as well as some powerful utility effects such as Elixir Tosses, and the stunbreaks on Elixir gun and Slick shoes. In exchange, they get to play around with their Gyros without having to dedicate a utility slot to them. This will require new utilities to be designed, but some Gyro toolbelts such as Defense Field would work well as utilities. This would still put scrapper at a 2-1 in terms of benefits to losses, but there is another trade-off that I will suggest later down the line to balance this out.

    Option 3: Give something to core that is lost when an Elite is selected.

    The core Rev route. Mind you, rev is interesting because core was designed with Elites in mind, but this is a valid way to do trade-offs when the core spec is underperforming.

    I believe both Engi and Ele would benefit from this type of trade-off as two core specs that have been struggling for a long time.

    Option 4: Make core traitlines valuable enough that you'd be hard pressed to drop one in exchange for an Elite

    There are a number of classes that do this well.

    Ranger loves wilderness survival because it gives them lower cd stunbreaks, cleanse, and some useful boons
    It loves skirmishing, mainly because of the amazing trait that is quick draw, but there are some other useful traits in this line that are very nice to have
    It loves Beastmastery because of synergies with axe, greatsword, and command skills. A lower coodown on protect me and stronger greatsword skills? Yes please.
    It loves marksmanship because of all of the juicy modifiers and attack of opportunity. You pick this up, you do big damage.

    Dropping any of these for Druid is a major hit to your dps, even without the pet nerf.

    Dropping any of these for Soulbeast was more of a side-grade than anything. However, after losing a pet, and many, many nerfs, this has started feeling like a net downgrade.

    Guardian also does this trade-off well. Radiance, Zeal, and Virtues are all great traitlines on any dps build, but taking all three means giving up on meditation synergy. For this reason, core guard and DH are widely thought to be interchangeable despite DH having no significant drawback on paper. The exception is trapper builds because core guard can't run them, of course.

    Virdict: This is the best way to do trade-offs. These trade-offs aren't arbitrary, don't dumb down the class, and genuinely feel fun to play around with. Sometimes you're trying to make a new build, and you realize that you need 3 core traitlines to get everything you need... so you just drop the elite in favor of a third core traitline.

    It pains me when core specs are nerfed in order to bring down Elites because this creates the opposite problem, where Elites are so far above the power of core that there truly is no drawback to running an Elite in favor of any other 3rd traitline. cough core Engi cough

  • Dantheman.3589Dantheman.3589 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Daredevil also gains unblockable for swipe. This is an important buff as swipe can go through blocks and stab and even if you don’t take bountiful theft it still makes trickster viable since it can still go through blocks just not stab

  • Multicolorhipster.9751Multicolorhipster.9751 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 23, 2020

    @Lan Deathrider.5910 said:
    For starters, this is a cross game mode discussion and is probably better parked under the profession tab :wink: That said the relevant Devs are more likely to see it here...

    This might be true, but I also don't play WvW and PvE and I would be acting a charlatan to talk about them. This is only about PvP really. I probably should have mentioned that at the very least so I appreciate you reminding me yo

    For those nitpicking over what is or is not a trade off, anything on the minor traits should get lumped into the discussion, as they are what comes with the e-spec as a baseline. These are not even across the specs and are a part of the e-spec's chassis and some of which impose penalties in addition to what they offer as boons. For example: Scrapper's vitality penalty and Berserker's toughness penalty.

    I think this is a pretty interesting idea as to what a tradeoff is, and I really wouldn't mind seeing some in those other minor traits as well. I didn't go through listing all of them for my hand's sake, and because while they are just built into the class, they usually either rely on the class mechanic to take effect, which is usually where the tradeoff comes in if an elite has one.

    @Ragnar.4257 said:
    It also misses some of the most important benefits/drawbacks of some of the elites, as well as missing the access to additional weapons and utilities, which in same cases is minimal but in others is game-changing.

    @Armen.1483 said:
    What are you talking about utility skills and traits is like 80% of the elite spec. Those skills/traits are what make the elite spec an elite spec. It is more important than f1-4 skills. You pick to be a class to just pick their skills/traitlines. It makes most difference only there and only there can be tradeoffs, not just in f1-f4. If we gonna make a separate post about the traits and skills and leave this one to just talk about f skills, we could just delete this all. You can't pick an elite traitline and leave traits unchecked. BTW the reason that elite specs change some mechanics of the class is defined by the 1st passive trait of the respective elite traitline. So if we are not talking about this, there is nothing left to talk about.

    Like I said before, I don't care enough to give myself carpal tunnel just to explore tradeoffs for every optional skill/trait. I'd literally be here all night, and i'm not that dedicated of a forum warrior main.

    I only chose to list off the gains and losses you get solely from picking an elite spec, while leaving it open for more discussion. If you have idea on what to add anywhere, I encourage you to share. Be constructive with a PMA =)

    Plus there's nothing I could really say about an optional skill/trait without injecting personal opinion. What I put in the list is objectively either the gains/losses that come just by adding the elite spec to your build with nothing else on it, and even a lot of these are unfair as people have pointed out. Talk about it, don't talk about it. Its up to you.

    @Ragnar.4257 said:
    And perhaps the most important one, which not many people talk about, is that by taking an elite you are locking yourself out of one of the core traitlines. For some professions this isn't so bad, but for others this is a massive sacrifice.

    I've highlighted the main issue for you there. That's how elite specs are meant to exist. As options. There should be some amount of sacrifice in picking them, and it shouldn't only be for specific professions. That's like, not fair.

    @Armen.1483 said:
    I still don't get it though. I mean what is the difference in hard nerfs or hard buffs at this point ? Do you mean you'd rather see a rework than a tweak in numbers ? Totally agree if that's the case. But probably not gonna happen.

    Absolutely. Like I say, anyone can complain about a number and demand that it be tweaked. I'm looking for more creative changes personally. Changes that give players choices and open up new strats. I think that hard number tweaking hasn't really done much to help that at all.

    Aside from that(and with a lot of personal bias) I think that nerfs should be reserved for extreme cases. In general, prefer buffs to weaker/underplayed parts of every profession. When nerfs are necessary, do it in creative ways that make the game more enjoyable to play and watch(IE tradeoffs)

    i'm also more on the same wavelength as @Kuma.1503
    Specifically on option 2 as I don't think elite specs were intended to be upgrades... or at least maybe not this long after the expansions dropped.
    I get having to sell the expansions, but that could just as easily be done by making the elites interesting side-grades rather than upgrades, hard as that might be to pull off.

    Ranked DuoQ 😡👉🚪
    Patch-culture is awful
    Nerfs should be reserved for extreme cases and only done in creative ways that make the game more interesting to play and watch.

  • @Megametzler.5729 said:

    @Multicolorhipster.9751 said:

    @LucianTheAngelic.7054 said:
    Your revenant analysis is objectively wrong:

    Herald:
    1) Herald’s +10% health bonus is a regular minor trait, not part of the “trade off” trait

    Yeah, that's because it doesn't have a tradeoff. If you're named Harold they just give you 10% health just 'cus.

    2) Herald trades Ancient Echo for Facet of Nature. This is a direct trade off. Echo isn’t a bad skill, and certainly better than some of the FoN skills (looking at you Glint). By ditching core you trade higher energy access for FoN.

    Renegade:
    1) again Renegade trades Ancient Echo for Heroic Command, Citadel Bombardment, and Orders from Above and Kalla’s Fervor. None of these skills are particularly OP and Renegade would likely be better served with Ancient Echo instead of all 3 of them if it could choose to not give it up. Citadel Bombardment is useless in PvP most of the time. Heroic command is extra might which is relatively redundant on ren. Orders from above isn’t awful, but Rev already has low CDs anyway so alacrity is only somewhat good on it.
    2) Kalla’s Fervor is the most non-trade off aspect of Ren since it doesn’t replace anything and is only added
    3) yes Ren gets a lot for it’s tradeoff, but this isn’t inherently a bad thing or unbalanced. While the class is performing well now it wasn’t for years so clearly the extra bonuses you get for taking Ren over Herald or Core weren’t enough to justify using Ren. None of the trade offs are major reasons why Ren is being used now and they’re fairly well balanced already

    P.s. yes Ren objectively has a trade off even if you don’t think it does. And Herald’s trade off is near equivalent and not as unbalanced or nonexistent like you claim

    Ah, yes. I'm objectively wrong because they aren't OP.

    ???

    Well, I do agree herald and renegade do have trade offs. However, they have no major impact on the viability of the builds, for example, assassin gives life steal on herald and unblockable on core. On renegade, the utilities seem more team fight oriented.

    I can't really label what you two are talking about as tradeoffs without injecting personal bias. Like... Even if i agree with you and say the profession skills are weaker than core's, both Ren and Herald still objectively have more. That being said...

    That might give an idea how renegade skills - including shortbow - should be adjusted: Team fights.

    However, it also means revenant's issues lie not with their elite specs' trade offs. But instead, you have to analyze why core power rev is not really strong but power herald is? Why is renegod viable, is it only because of shortbow? How can you force it into a team fighting role?

    But I am not sure whether you can (or need to or should) tweak the profession/specialisation mechanics to do this.

    I think this is true, and I wouldn't agree with hard nerfing either.

    There surely has to be some type of tradeoff that makes Renegod and Harold more specialized specializations though.
    Even something as simple as stat adjustments like Zerker and Scrapper get.
    Here's what I threw together over a wee cuppa:

    Harold: Gain: New/More F2 skills, 10% Health Loss: Reduced attributes for each active upkeep skill, Reduced attributes to make up for the 10% health boost.
    As to which attribute/attributes would be targeted, i'm not entirely sure. I'm leaning towards toughness in my head, but I also don't play Harry and I don't want the tradeoff to betray how the spec is meant to be played.

    As to why:
    The F2 itself is an upkeep skill with Harry.
    A free multiplicative attribute increase, for an additive attribute decrease. Seems fair, doesn't it?

    I think that's probably the most reasonable approach to Renegod as well is just tacking on some reduction in some random stat to make the class more specialized.
    It's a hard case. They did it with Scrapper, and while it isn't the most exciting or impactful, I honestly can't think of much else that could be done without reworking the entire spec.

    I'm also not calling either class over or underpowered. These are just ideas. If you think of anything else, do say.

    Ranked DuoQ 😡👉🚪
    Patch-culture is awful
    Nerfs should be reserved for extreme cases and only done in creative ways that make the game more interesting to play and watch.

  • LucianTheAngelic.7054LucianTheAngelic.7054 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 24, 2020

    @Multicolorhipster.9751 said:

    @LucianTheAngelic.7054 said:
    Your revenant analysis is objectively wrong:

    Herald:
    1) Herald’s +10% health bonus is a regular minor trait, not part of the “trade off” trait

    Yeah, that's because it doesn't have a tradeoff. If you're named Harold they just give you 10% health just 'cus.

    Please google "Herald Traits" on the GW2 Wiki. Here. I'll do it for you:
    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/List_of_revenant_traits

    Here, i'll put it in caps so you can read it better. DRACONIC FORTITUDE (AKA THE 10% Health trait) IS A MINOR MASTER TRAIT. IT'S NOT PART OF THE "TRADEOFF TRAIT" AKA THE MINOR ADEPT TRAIT. Draconic Fortitude is literally just a regular trait. If you take a traitline that isn't Herald, you get a different Minor Master trait instead. You don't just "get 10% health just cuz." I'll say it a 4th time, it's literally just a regular trait, not part of the "tradeoff trait."

    Please stop spreading misinformation

    2) Herald trades Ancient Echo for Facet of Nature. This is a direct trade off. Echo isn’t a bad skill, and certainly better than some of the FoN skills (looking at you Glint). By ditching core you trade higher energy access for FoN.

    Renegade:
    1) again Renegade trades Ancient Echo for Heroic Command, Citadel Bombardment, and Orders from Above and Kalla’s Fervor. None of these skills are particularly OP and Renegade would likely be better served with Ancient Echo instead of all 3 of them if it could choose to not give it up. Citadel Bombardment is useless in PvP most of the time. Heroic command is extra might which is relatively redundant on ren. Orders from above isn’t awful, but Rev already has low CDs anyway so alacrity is only somewhat good on it.
    2) Kalla’s Fervor is the most non-trade off aspect of Ren since it doesn’t replace anything and is only added
    3) yes Ren gets a lot for it’s tradeoff, but this isn’t inherently a bad thing or unbalanced. While the class is performing well now it wasn’t for years so clearly the extra bonuses you get for taking Ren over Herald or Core weren’t enough to justify using Ren. None of the trade offs are major reasons why Ren is being used now and they’re fairly well balanced already

    P.s. yes Ren objectively has a trade off even if you don’t think it does. And Herald’s trade off is near equivalent and not as unbalanced or nonexistent like you claim

    Ah, yes. I'm objectively wrong because they aren't OP.

    ???

    You're objectively wrong because the things about Renegade that were/are an issue have literally nothing to do with F2/F3/F4 or Kalla's Fervor. It has everything to do with Kalla's Stance skills and the massive overbuffing of shortbow and then the overnerfing of everything else. The F2/F3/F4 aren't even really out of line with Ancient Echo, either, which is important when considering balance and tradeoffs. This isn't a case like Core Guardian vs. Firebrand where Firebrand has an additional 15 skills

  • @Yasai.3549 said:

    @LucianTheAngelic.7054 said:

    Renegade:
    1) again Renegade trades Ancient Echo for Heroic Command, Citadel Bombardment, and Orders from Above and Kalla’s Fervor. None of these skills are particularly OP and Renegade would likely be better served with Ancient Echo instead of all 3 of them if it could choose to not give it up. Citadel Bombardment is useless in PvP most of the time. Heroic command is extra might which is relatively redundant on ren. Orders from above isn’t awful, but Rev already has low CDs anyway so alacrity is only somewhat good on it.

    I'm inclined to disagree with this.
    Orders from Above is the one defining part of Renegade which makes it still heavily lodged into the PvE meta.
    If not for Renegade's ability to use this off CD and apply Alacrity to allies, Renegade would have fell through the floor from disuse long time ago.

    This is the PvP side of the forums so PvE is literally irrelevant for this discussion

  • Yasai.3549Yasai.3549 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @LucianTheAngelic.7054 said:

    This is the PvP side of the forums so PvE is literally irrelevant for this discussion

    It's just not right to talk about "what's useful for PvP" when talking about the Espec as a whole and tradeoffs.
    But say, fine we are talking only about PvP Renegade.

    I wouldn't say Orders are useless, neither would I count out Heroic Command.
    Especially now that Incensed Response has been nerfed, Heroic Command is one of the few things left which will allow Renegade to instantly gain a good amount of Might in a single button press.

    If I play a stupid build, I deserve to die.
    If I beat people on a stupid build, I deserve to get away with it.

  • @Yasai.3549 said:

    @LucianTheAngelic.7054 said:

    This is the PvP side of the forums so PvE is literally irrelevant for this discussion

    It's just not right to talk about "what's useful for PvP" when talking about the Espec as a whole and tradeoffs.
    But say, fine we are talking only about PvP Renegade.

    I wouldn't say Orders are useless, neither would I count out Heroic Command.
    Especially now that Incensed Response has been nerfed, Heroic Command is one of the few things left which will allow Renegade to instantly gain a good amount of Might in a single button press.

    If that's the case and we're discussing professions as a whole across all game modes then it should be moved to the "Professions" tab under "other" topics. But no, it was made specifically in the pvp forums so it should be assumed the focus is on pvp.

    I didn't say Orders are useless. I only said Bombardment was useless in PvP. My full quote was "None of these skills are particularly OP and Renegade would likely be better served with Ancient Echo instead of all 3 of them," so please don't put words into my mouth. Heroic Command isn't bad, but I don't think it's as good as Ancient Echo, especially when Vindication still exists. Bombardment as mentioned is trash in PvP and Orders from Above is fairly meh in PvP.

    I also don't think PvE tradeoffs are nearly as important since it's not a mode that is balanced for often anymore and there's tons of busted things that exist there already, very little of it having to do with "not having proper tradeoffs for elite specs." I also am of the mind that it's fine if Core isn't as good as the Elites.

  • Quadox.7834Quadox.7834 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 24, 2020

    you know whats even more exciting than buffs? new content.

    reworking old deprecated traits (300 sec icd anyone), adding new skills/traits (in core we got new gm trait and new healskill on all classes). new classes. new especs. new usable weapons on core professions. new (non-djinn) maps. even additions to hotm.

    // Yanim

  • Yasai.3549Yasai.3549 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Quadox.7834 said:
    you know whats even more exciting than buffs? new content.

    reworking old deprecated traits (300 sec icd anyone), adding new skills/traits (in core we got new gm trait and new healskill on all classes). new classes. new especs. new usable weapons on core professions. new (non-djinn) maps. even additions to hotm.

    What would be even more exciting is adding new weapons to Core, especially for the likes of Revenant, Engineer and Elementalist.
    The day every Profession gets 1 new Core weapon is the day everyone comes together in harmony and dance around in Lions Arch in a huge Conga line.

    If I play a stupid build, I deserve to die.
    If I beat people on a stupid build, I deserve to get away with it.

  • otto.5684otto.5684 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Speaking purely from PvE, I find the term “trade-off” silly. If you consider the elites, as a package, they are typically stronger by quite a bit. Even if you leave something behind, when taking an elite, you are usually in a much better position.

  • Infusion.7149Infusion.7149 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 24, 2020

    @LucianTheAngelic.7054 said:
    This is the PvP side of the forums so PvE is literally irrelevant for this discussion

    Did the moderators move this thread?

    If it's about PVP or even WVW , not being able to drop out of berserk mode is a rather large downside to berserker. You also can't use burst at all unless in berserk mode (as mentioned in first post). There could have been a "tradeoff" of manually ending berserk mode (F2?) resulting in loss of all adrenaline + possibly locked out of rage skills for an amount of time depending on the adrenaline level (like overheat disabling toolbelt skills).

    That's not even counting the fact that the entire traitline is centered around it, unlike say Soulbeast , Druid, or Reaper. It'd be the same if Holo couldn't drop out of Photon Forge.

    @ Multicolorhipster.9751 :

    There's also the QoL tradeoff on necros not running scourge in that all your utility skills' cooldowns aren't visible.

    For firebrand, being able to use virtues willy nilly without regard for cooldowns because they can be traited to be active even after activation is a huge benefit.

    For mirage, axe is in use in multiple modes but for competitive modes the one dodge issue is ever present even with Jaunt + Blink.

    You are also missing spellbreakers' ability to boon rip which is a big plus. Without that factor nobody would run warriors in WVW right now.

  • @Infusion.7149 said:

    @LucianTheAngelic.7054 said:
    This is the PvP side of the forums so PvE is literally irrelevant for this discussion

    Did the moderators move this thread?

    Yes looks like they did. It was originally posted in PvP.

  • I'll reiterate. You have to consider all the minor traits when discussing what is gained and what is lost as they are the new chassis that is gained and is how the espec alters the class.

    If stats are apart of the new chassis, even things like health and damage modifiers, then they a apart of the discussion.

    Some especs impose stat penalties, some don't. The ones that don't tend to perform better.

  • Jski.6180Jski.6180 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 24, 2020

    Core ele realty needs something other then just cd on swaps or your simply making tempest need arcain line and or core ele to make it an core ele. Maybe the F5 is needed must like the F5 on eng core.

    The real traid off of core ele vs tempest and waver should be flexibility BUT because tempest and weaver both have support and dps choose there no real way to cut the flexibility with out comply destroying core ele (as anet has done up to this point to balanced both weaver and tempest). So i suggest looking at gobble cd between swaps not the cd of the swaps them self. If you make a hard cap of 3 sec for both tempest and weaver (letting tempest have a hard cap cd for its overloads at 3 sec as well) you would go a long way to fixing a flexibility problem. At the same time much like eng you need to make the conja weapons into kits AND make the weaver conja wepon kits go on 6 sec cd much like the holo use of there kits. This may need to carry over to tempest as well at some level.

    Any thing else will just mean core ele is worthless as a class when you can always just be a tempest and only only a tempest when you need an overload.

    @Multicolorhipster.9751
    Only core ele to tempest has no true triad off in gw2 every thing else has some changes even if they are small.

    See ELE forms and you will get my views.

  • @Lan Deathrider.5910 said:
    I'll reiterate. You have to consider all the minor traits when discussing what is gained and what is lost as they are the new chassis that is gained and is how the espec alters the class.

    If stats are apart of the new chassis, even things like health and damage modifiers, then they a apart of the discussion.

    Some especs impose stat penalties, some don't. The ones that don't tend to perform better.

    Except that doesn’t make any sense. There is a clear “trade off” trait (aka the Minor Adept trait) which is mostly what Anet is talking about when discussing trade offs. Every other minor trait (minor master and minor grandmaster) is directly replacing those minor traits from other core trait lines that are not chosen. It’s always been understood that taking an elite spec traitline is a trade off in and of itself since you lose access to 1 core traitline.

    However, what should not be done in this discussion is conflating the “non-trade off” minor traits as being “no cost bonuses” like the OP has done for several especs.

    For example, the OP says Herald gains 10% health just for being Herald and that there is no tradeoff. This isn’t true, Draconic Fortitude is a Minor Master trait. By taking Herald you lose access to all other Minor Masters from core that you’re not choosing. For further example, if not taking Retribution for Revenant you then lose the corresponding Minor Master, which is Unwavering Avoidance (gain vigor when you evade an attack).

    This is why it’s kind of pointless to discuss all of the minor traits when discussing Elite Spec trade offs and discussion should be focused on the direct tradeoffs. It’s understood that you’re losing access to some core traitlines and some core minors to get an espec traitline and their minors. This is more a direct question of “are these minors in-line with core minors” which is more of a question of regular balance than of tradeoffs.

  • @LucianTheAngelic.7054 said:

    @Lan Deathrider.5910 said:
    I'll reiterate. You have to consider all the minor traits when discussing what is gained and what is lost as they are the new chassis that is gained and is how the espec alters the class.

    If stats are apart of the new chassis, even things like health and damage modifiers, then they a apart of the discussion.

    Some especs impose stat penalties, some don't. The ones that don't tend to perform better.

    Except that doesn’t make any sense. There is a clear “trade off” trait (aka the Minor Adept trait) which is mostly what Anet is talking about when discussing trade offs. Every other minor trait (minor master and minor grandmaster) is directly replacing those minor traits from other core trait lines that are not chosen. It’s always been understood that taking an elite spec traitline is a trade off in and of itself since you lose access to 1 core traitline.

    However, what should not be done in this discussion is conflating the “non-trade off” minor traits as being “no cost bonuses” like the OP has done for several especs.

    For example, the OP says Herald gains 10% health just for being Herald and that there is no tradeoff. This isn’t true, Draconic Fortitude is a Minor Master trait. By taking Herald you lose access to all other Minor Masters from core that you’re not choosing. For further example, if not taking Retribution for Revenant you then lose the corresponding Minor Master, which is Unwavering Avoidance (gain vigor when you evade an attack).

    This is why it’s kind of pointless to discuss all of the minor traits when discussing Elite Spec trade offs and discussion should be focused on the direct tradeoffs. It’s understood that you’re losing access to some core traitlines and some core minors to get an espec traitline and their minors. This is more a direct question of “are these minors in-line with core minors” which is more of a question of regular balance than of tradeoffs.

    That's a rather cynical viewpoint to be honest. The minors are not something you choose within the traitlines, they are the chassis for the spec.

    You cannot discuss tradeoffs without including them. So long as there are minors that impose negatives, then they are a part of the tradeoff.

    I know we won't agree on this, that's fine. It's valuable to air both sides and we can fairly disagree on it.

    My main concern is that there are specs with minors that impose penalties. These were bad decisions and need to be removed. Can we agree on that?

  • Dadnir.5038Dadnir.5038 Member ✭✭✭✭

    It feel like the fact that chrono lose the ability to self-shatter (pre HoT trait Illusory persona) have been forgotten in it's "tradeoff".

    From my point of view:
    HoT:

    • Tempest: Gain strong overloads at almost no cost (Technically there is no increase to the attunment CD, wiki list the occasional increase as a bug)
    • Scrapper: Gain fonction gyro, lose toolbelt elite skill ("Ok"ish for PvP, not really worth it for PvE)
    • Dragonhunter: Modified virtue. (I'd say it's an "Ok" trade off. Could afford an increased CD on some of those virtues)
    • Chrono: Lose illusory persona, slightly different shatter skills. (From my point of view it's a loss)
    • Reaper: Change shroud skillkit (it's even, like moving from a shortbow to a hammer)
    • Druid: Gain avatar, pet lose a bit of power (it's a net gain)
    • Herald: trade it's F2 for another F2. (It's Ok)
    • Daredevil: Trade it's F1 for another. Gain an extra dodge. (You could say it's a net gain)
    • Berserker: Lose regular burst for primal burst gated behind a stance. (no opinion)

    PoF:

    • Weaver: Lose flexibility, gain dual attunment attack. (I'd say it's on the "gain" side)
    • Holosmith: replace elite toolbelt skill by a kit (it's a net "gain")
    • Firebrand: Replace virtue by tomes (no real loss here)
    • Mirage: lose a dodge, gain new attack after dodging (a bad tradeoff)
    • Scourge: Shades replace shroud (the way shades work make it a bad tradeoff)
    • Soulbeast: Lose the ability to swap pet in combat, gain the ability to merge with pet. (it's "Ok"ish)
    • Renegade: Lose F2, gain F2/F3/F4.
    • Deadeye: Stronger stealth attack, new bundles at the cost of less mobility. (no opinion)
    • Spellbreaker: Gain a defensive F2, lose potential damage on F1.
  • draxynnic.3719draxynnic.3719 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I think it is valid to consider all of the minor specs when assessing an elite, but you also need to do what a lot of people forget and remember that one of the things you give up is a core traitline. That's hard to directly analyze because you can't predict which core traitline would have otherwise been taken in its place, but for some professions it is quite significant.

    If one is trying to be objective, I'd make the following adjustments:

    @Multicolorhipster.9751 said:

    List of Currently Existing Tradeoffs:

    Tempest: | Gain: Overloads Loss: Increased CD on attunement swaps for Overloads

    This isn't a tradeoff - or rather, it's not a tradeoff of taking Tempest. Nothing stops you from playing a Tempest exactly how you'd play a regular Elementalist. Overloads give you an additional option, and the increased CD is a tradeoff for using that option, but is not a tradeoff for taking Tempest. You can always choose not to overload and therefore not to suffer the increased CD.

    Firebrand: | Gain: Tomes with lots of additional skills Loss: Tomes have increased CD's compared to core virtues.

    Also lose instant activation of virtues. How important that is is subjective, but it IS something you give up.

    Scrapper: | Gain: Barrier on damage Loss: -180 Vitality

    Also lose having an F5 based on your elite skill in exchange for the function gyro.

    Elite Specs without Tradeoffs or Unbalanced Tradeoffs:
    Dragonhunter: | Gain: F1 and F2 do more than core does at the same CD. Loss: F3 has a longer CD than core. (2-1)

    As commented above, they lose instant activation of virtues. The value of that is subjective, but while DH virtues are flashy, losing the ability to activate virtues while doing something else does hurt occasionally.

    Holosmith: | You can overheat Just kidding, no tradeoff. (1-0)

    Like Scrapper, you lose having an F5 based on your elite skill.

    Harold: | Gain: 10% Max health for being Harold. F2 skill for 5 Legends. Loss: Core rev's F2 skill for 4 legends.(2-0)

    Even using a simplistic points-based model, I'd call this 2-1 rather than 2-0. Any given build still only has two F2 skills available, and giving up a 25 energy boost skill is significant... although Ancient Echo is probably still a little weaker overall.

    Renegod: | No tradeoff. (1-0)

    More that you give up one skill in order to gain three. In practice, you're giving up a skill that grants you energy that you could use for other skills, in exchange for three skills that cost energy.

  • Axl.8924Axl.8924 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Jski.6180 said:
    Core ele realty needs something other then just cd on swaps or your simply making tempest need arcain line and or core ele to make it an core ele. Maybe the F5 is needed must like the F5 on eng core.

    The real traid off of core ele vs tempest and waver should be flexibility BUT because tempest and weaver both have support and dps choose there no real way to cut the flexibility with out comply destroying core ele (as anet has done up to this point to balanced both weaver and tempest). So i suggest looking at gobble cd between swaps not the cd of the swaps them self. If you make a hard cap of 3 sec for both tempest and weaver (letting tempest have a hard cap cd for its overloads at 3 sec as well) you would go a long way to fixing a flexibility problem. At the same time much like eng you need to make the conja weapons into kits AND make the weaver conja wepon kits go on 6 sec cd much like the holo use of there kits. This may need to carry over to tempest as well at some level.

    Any thing else will just mean core ele is worthless as a class when you can always just be a tempest and only only a tempest when you need an overload.

    @Multicolorhipster.9751
    Only core ele to tempest has no true triad off in gw2 every thing else has some changes even if they are small.

    You mean basically access to better stab on tempest and access to decent buffs from overload that synergize with tempest really well no?

    Here is my list of characters i got so far:

    Elementalist 80 with tempest:Talman nul
    Necromancer 80 with reaper:Zex vokar
    Mesmer level 80 no chrono yet:Klanga voosh.
    Level 80 Ranger with druid spec Jedkhan.

  • Jski.6180Jski.6180 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Axl.8924 said:

    @Jski.6180 said:
    Core ele realty needs something other then just cd on swaps or your simply making tempest need arcain line and or core ele to make it an core ele. Maybe the F5 is needed must like the F5 on eng core.

    The real traid off of core ele vs tempest and waver should be flexibility BUT because tempest and weaver both have support and dps choose there no real way to cut the flexibility with out comply destroying core ele (as anet has done up to this point to balanced both weaver and tempest). So i suggest looking at gobble cd between swaps not the cd of the swaps them self. If you make a hard cap of 3 sec for both tempest and weaver (letting tempest have a hard cap cd for its overloads at 3 sec as well) you would go a long way to fixing a flexibility problem. At the same time much like eng you need to make the conja weapons into kits AND make the weaver conja wepon kits go on 6 sec cd much like the holo use of there kits. This may need to carry over to tempest as well at some level.

    Any thing else will just mean core ele is worthless as a class when you can always just be a tempest and only only a tempest when you need an overload.

    @Multicolorhipster.9751
    Only core ele to tempest has no true triad off in gw2 every thing else has some changes even if they are small.

    You mean basically access to better stab on tempest and access to decent buffs from overload that synergize with tempest really well no?

    The overloads dont have to be used on tempest and you can play tempest like a core ele. Its this lack of an F5 or a "core ele effect" that is missing for a real traid off out side of just a trait line lost.

    See ELE forms and you will get my views.

  • Infusion.7149Infusion.7149 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 25, 2020

    @Dadnir.5038 said:
    It feel like the fact that chrono lose the ability to self-shatter (pre HoT trait Illusory persona) have been forgotten in it's "tradeoff".

    From my point of view:
    HoT:

    • Tempest: Gain strong overloads at almost no cost (Technically there is no increase to the attunment CD, wiki list the occasional increase as a bug)
    • Scrapper: Gain fonction gyro, lose toolbelt elite skill ("Ok"ish for PvP, not really worth it for PvE)
    • Dragonhunter: Modified virtue. (I'd say it's an "Ok" trade off. Could afford an increased CD on some of those virtues)
    • Chrono: Lose illusory persona, slightly different shatter skills. (From my point of view it's a loss)
    • Reaper: Change shroud skillkit (it's even, like moving from a shortbow to a hammer)
    • Druid: Gain avatar, pet lose a bit of power (it's a net gain)
    • Herald: trade it's F2 for another F2. (It's Ok)
    • Daredevil: Trade it's F1 for another. Gain an extra dodge. (You could say it's a net gain)
    • Berserker: Lose regular burst for primal burst gated behind a stance. (no opinion)

    PoF:

    • Weaver: Lose flexibility, gain dual attunment attack. (I'd say it's on the "gain" side)
    • Holosmith: replace elite toolbelt skill by a kit (it's a net "gain")
    • Firebrand: Replace virtue by tomes (no real loss here)
    • Mirage: lose a dodge, gain new attack after dodging (a bad tradeoff)
    • Scourge: Shades replace shroud (the way shades work make it a bad tradeoff)
    • Soulbeast: Lose the ability to swap pet in combat, gain the ability to merge with pet. (it's "Ok"ish)
    • Renegade: Lose F2, gain F2/F3/F4.
    • Deadeye: Stronger stealth attack, new bundles at the cost of less mobility. (no opinion)
    • Spellbreaker: Gain a defensive F2, lose potential damage on F1.

    You lose one core traitline on tempest which often times has a damage modifier. Every traitline pretty much has a damage modifier, whether it is fire / air/ water / earth / arcane. I would say the reason why tempest is used over core ele is due to the warhorn (Lightning Orb makes up ~20% of overall damage and can hit 14 to 42 times which means it is amplified significantly from buffs that benefit from multiple hits but also suffers against retaliation) as well as overload damage (Overload air is ~20% of overall power DPS on Fresh Air tempest and hits up to 14 times). In competitive modes, I'm almost certain if the interval on shock aura were 3s instead of 2s it would fall out of favor very quickly now that 10 target shouts is gone. That's the other main difference, more access to shock auras (fire aura / frost aura can be attained via combo fields quite readily) and magnetic aura for reflects. In the early days of GW2 we had cele dagger+dagger core ele so it isn't so much the fault of core ele as the power creep overall across all specs.

    Scrapper's vitality loss is negated by the explosives line (Blast Shield in particular) as well as the barrier output. In places where barrier isn't counted as healing, scrapper excels. In fact I use it often to help people with CMs for ad infinitum because not only do you have high sustain you have a function gyro that resurrects people. Because warrior's cunning is different in PVP than WVW, it isn't kept in check by the anti-barrier trait either. Wasn't it just recently people were complaining about full sustain decap scrapper being "degenerate" as well as meme flamethrower scrapper?

    DH : seeing how it is interchangable both in PVE and PVP (and WVW roaming) with core guard for the most part since longbow is generally not great it comes down to traps as a skill category rather than virtues.

    Chrono ... you lose distortion shatter and a core traitline. Because shield has a double block if used in a timely fashion the tradeoff is largely negated with that weaponset. Illusionary Persona is gone from the game already. If you're talking about meta PVE power chronos, those don't have the ability to double shatter (illusions) or gain a damage bonus from Compounding Power because they run domination + dueling + chrono. When you see 40K+ benchmarks those are inflated by slow and Danger Time (so realistically it's 36K or less even without accounting for the crit chance improvement) and the assumption clones don't die. Realistically it will be lower when you aren't running more than one chrono. In fact , I would be glad if Danger Time were outright removed because the only time it excels is when you stack chronos. Because gravity well is no longer dealing real damage in competitive modes, the place you often see chrono nowadays is WvW as a bulk boon rip source.

    Reaper : the shroud on reaper hits harder than core generally and the quickness applied via traits makes it far more self sufficient. Also Greatsword is a far better power weapon than axe is for PVE purposes. The main tradeoff is the melee nature of reaper shroud as well as Greatsword, which is readily apparent in PVP and WvW roaming (less so in largescale WvW).

    Druid: you technically lose one core traitline which can be used for damage but almost everyone runs druid as a support (whether it is healing in PVE or the annoying decap or immob druids in competitive modes). There's nothing intrinsically condi about druid other than the fact that there's condi + heal gear : a condi soulbeast has more threat offensively against a target without cleanses.

    Herald: Due to the nature of facets it's much easier to use glint than the other legends ; boon uptime with 3s intervals is effortless (and 10 targets now in PVE such that it is meta in some raids) and the "invuln" of infuse light is always apparent against people not paying attention.

    Daredevil : It's more or less a direct upgrade except for the steal range ; in PVE you almost always run it (need it for staff) and even in competitive modes as well

    Berserker: As stated above, the inability to drop out of Berserk mode is a huge defensive liability which can only be mitigated by Eternal Champion which means you lose out on the 15-20% damage bonus (depends on game mode) of Bloody Roar. Berserker loses adrenaline when kited so the entire mechanic is more or less mitigated if you have to chase a target. We've seen berserkers being used in WVW (mainly for arc divider) where it relies on the sustain of firebrands/scrappers/tempests/shout breakers but it isn't a must have by definition especially since almost all CC skills have their damage taken away (which means hammer warriors are largely support).

    Weaver : a nightmare to play for most players due to the way dual attunement works ; sword is melee range so in places you can't weapon swap it's a liability. At its inception I think it was suggested unravel be part of the F skills rather than a utility. It's been nerfed in competitive modes already and I would say the barrier to its adoption in PVE comes down to ease of play and the fragility of it in full zerk.

    Holosmith: replaces F5 with a high powered melee (or partly ranged when traited) kit... that also has sustain in the form of heals/barrier/condi conversion. I think it's been brought up before that it also anti-kiting despite being mostly melee due to Crystal Configuration: Zephyr.

    Firebrand: you lose a core traitline which can give you sustain or damage but for the most part it's a direct upgrade since you can trait to have the virtues up even after using tomes

    Mirage: axe is a strong melee weapon but as condi chrono exists in PVE and it has one dodge in competitive modes (somewhat mitigated by energy sigil , Jaunt + Blink) I would say it could use some refining. The way the dodge works is jarring for some players, it's very apparent when people try to dodge and they die because of mirage mirror.

    Scourge: it was nerfed to only have F skills effects around the shades a while back, then it was both around the scourge and shades in July of this year. In PVE scenarios scourge is far more relevant than reaper in most cases, people ask for heal scourge more often than they will ever ask for reapers. Also for the heal/support players a scourge is less of a burden because of the shroud mechanic being removed as part of the spec. The fact that there isn't a huge tell that you are locked out of utilities and heal skill (and heals in general) due to being in shroud is a benefit as well.

    July 7 ,2020: Shade skills have been changed back to triggering at both the necromancer's location and their shade locations with each use.

    Soulbeast: generally a direct upgrade to core ranger even though you lose either a core damage (skirmish/marks/beast mastery unlikely) or sustain traitline (wilderness survival usually). In PVE there's essentially no reason to run a core ranger for damage as the merged bonuses are significant and it makes "pet bonuses" all applied to merged soulbeast (i.e. Maul , "Sic Em").

    Renegade: it's worth noting that Shortbow is a weapon that is used in PVP bunker type renegades and so is the Kalla legend. Whether it is overpowering is debatable but prior to February nobody would bother using it since legends would vanish instantly to auto attacks similar to mesmer clones. For the most part alacrity from the orders skill isn't a big concern in competitive modes since the interval isn't short as herald. For a straight condi build people have been using condi herald, so it ultimately boils down to Kalla + shortbow. In PVE , it also boils down to Kalla (CC) and the alacrity from the orders skill even when you account for condi RR.

    Deadeye: it basically comes down to having a ranged weapon that isn't cringe worthy. Rifle is still not widely regarded and the whole stealthing aspect prevents capture point progression.

    Spellbreaker: because you trade off a core traitline (generally either tactics or strength) and higher tier bursts in exchange for boon rips and full counter it has a tradeoff that is more apparent in PVE. Damage overall is inline with a Berserker that is missing Bloody Roar (~30K per Lucky Noobs while a full DPS Berserker is ~37K?). For competitive modes having the defensive capabilities of full counter and boon rips is invaluable , far more than the huge tradeoffs of berserker.

  • I am pleased that ArenaNet were clever enough to separate the balance of PvE, PvP, and WvW. This is a highly intelligent choice that I wish any other MMO would've made. I've left titles before for trying to "balance" PvP and ruining PvE in the process.

    The problem is this: Balance is an illusion. Balance simply isn't real. What balance actually is is a very clever way of giving everyone their time in the sun on a rotation; This way, everyone gets to feel powerful for a while, underpowered for a while, and middle-of-the-road for a while. This is what every "balancing" team has ever done in any game I've ever played, it's about keeping the baying, braying masses docile by ensuring that no particular class—or profession—feels powerful for too long.

    The only true balance is rock, paper, scissors. This is why Pokémon and 1v1 fighting games fare so well. Indeed, if there one has a powerful means, that powerful means has a weakness or can be nullified by something else. This is the only way that any kind of balance can be achieved because all it does, really, is place balance within the hands of the players. It's up to the players to ensure there are enough rocks, papers, and scissors present within the field. I'm sure this is why any game that isn't focused around this venerable approach is probably envious of those that are.

    This is why tradeoffs won't work. It would break the cycle, you see. Whilst Jormag and I alike are all for the breaking of cycles, it would result in chaos, it'd leave the majority very upset, and the docility fashioned by the rotation of power would be lost. This is all that "balance" does for the most part.

    "Okay, who's powerful in PvP this month? Right, let's jiggle their numbers up a bit and jiggle the numbers of major threats to them down a lot."

    That's an oversimplification, yes, but that's ultimately all it is. I feel like I'm lifting the veil here and that that might be rather dangerous but... It's the same reason why cries for nerfs are ignored until it's that class's turn to be depowered in favour of some other class. It's the rotation of life, and it rules us all. Well, not all. Not PvE players. Thank Cael. You get the idea though.

  • Obtena.7952Obtena.7952 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 25, 2020

    I don't see this as better, just different. I think 'tradeoffs' is just a bad approach to design; you won't get better balance with it no more than just the regular attempts to balance by changing skills.

    If you're on a highway and roadrunner goes "beep beep"
    Just step aside or you might end up in a heap

  • Jski.6180Jski.6180 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 25, 2020

    @Hypnowulf.7403 said:
    I am pleased that ArenaNet were clever enough to separate the balance of PvE, PvP, and WvW. This is a highly intelligent choice that I wish any other MMO would've made. I've left titles before for trying to "balance" PvP and ruining PvE in the process.

    The problem is this: Balance is an illusion. Balance simply isn't real. What balance actually is is a very clever way of giving everyone their time in the sun on a rotation; This way, everyone gets to feel powerful for a while, underpowered for a while, and middle-of-the-road for a while. This is what every "balancing" team has ever done in any game I've ever played, it's about keeping the baying, braying masses docile by ensuring that no particular class—or profession—feels powerful for too long.

    The only true balance is rock, paper, scissors. This is why Pokémon and 1v1 fighting games fare so well. Indeed, if there one has a powerful means, that powerful means has a weakness or can be nullified by something else. This is the only way that any kind of balance can be achieved because all it does, really, is place balance within the hands of the players. It's up to the players to ensure there are enough rocks, papers, and scissors present within the field. I'm sure this is why any game that isn't focused around this venerable approach is probably envious of those that are.

    This is why tradeoffs won't work. It would break the cycle, you see. Whilst Jormag and I alike are all for the breaking of cycles, it would result in chaos, it'd leave the majority very upset, and the docility fashioned by the rotation of power would be lost. This is all that "balance" does for the most part.

    "Okay, who's powerful in PvP this month? Right, let's jiggle their numbers up a bit and jiggle the numbers of major threats to them down a lot."

    That's an oversimplification, yes, but that's ultimately all it is. I feel like I'm lifting the veil here and that that might be rather dangerous but... It's the same reason why cries for nerfs are ignored until it's that class's turn to be depowered in favour of some other class. It's the rotation of life, and it rules us all. Well, not all. Not PvE players. Thank Cael. You get the idea though.

    If balance is an illusion then why would you ever want to separate between the game types? I do not buy this mind set and it seems to be more an means of apologizing for simply bad balancing teams.

    They only partly separated and there are some massive hold overs from pve balancing that very bluntly gets in the way of spvp and wvw balancing. Anet is realty bad a favoring some classes over others gurd is the best example of this for all game types. Anet likes ppl to play gurd over all other classes this is why they gotten more reworks and buffs over all and that IS a massive balancing problem that anet and anet alone has made.

    A lot of skills have not been touched in a real way for 5 years + and you have skill that have been reworked over and over there is something wrong here.

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Category:Updates

    Look for your self the info is there.

    @Obtena.7952 said:
    I don't see this as better, just different. I think 'tradeoffs' is just a bad approach to design; you won't get better balance with it no more than just the regular attempts to balance by changing skills.

    Also knows as power creep and P2W. Tradeoffs are a must and they realty need to be impactful to make the choose you make for your build to mean something other then just run the meta or what anet tells you to run. THAT is where are are anet is effectively dictating the meta and telling its player base what to run and how to run it. The oppositely of the original ideal of gw2.

    See ELE forms and you will get my views.

  • draxynnic.3719draxynnic.3719 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Jski.6180 said:
    They only partly separated and there are some massive hold overs from pve balancing that very bluntly gets in the way of spvp and wvw balancing. Anet is realty bad a favoring some classes over others gurd is the best example of this for all game types. Anet likes ppl to play gurd over all other classes this is why they gotten more reworks and buffs over all and that IS a massive balancing problem that anet and anet alone has made.

    That's... really not accurate. The only significant rework Guardian has had since HoT was the spirit weapon rework. The core traitlines and mechanics are still largely doing what they did after the all-profession traitline rework pre-HoT, and the only times I can think of where there have been functionality changes to elite specialisation stuff (as opposed to numbers reworks) it's been to nerf them. There's been nothing along the lines of the full traitline reworks that revenant, warrior, and engineer have had, or the complete mechanics change that mesmer had a little after PoF released.

    Largely because it hasn't needed them.

    The common line "guardian is in a good place" reflects that guardian is the closest to achieving the standard that ArenaNet is aiming for all professions to reach. Solid mechanics, versatile, all traitlines have their uses, and in PvP it's pretty much always present but apart from firebrands for a bit (but they've now been pretty much nerfed out of sPvP altogether) it's rarely dominant.

  • Dadnir.5038Dadnir.5038 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Infusion.7149
    The way you're looking at "tradeoff" in term of damage output is wrong from the start (For example, I could say druid is on the losing side of the tradeoff just because it's dps is low, yet it's not a tradeoff). "Performance" isn't a trade off, there is pro and cons to all traitlines. The difference to core mechanisms is where lie the tradeoffs, and for some e-spec there is clearly a net gain of mechanism from their e-spec (for example tempest getting overload for "free", going with the excuse that "core ele just need a F5 is just denying that tempest and weaver simply got "more" out of the trade).

  • Yasai.3549Yasai.3549 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @draxynnic.3719 said:

    The common line "guardian is in a good place" reflects that guardian is the closest to achieving the standard that ArenaNet is aiming for all professions to reach. Solid mechanics, versatile, all traitlines have their uses, and in PvP it's pretty much always present but apart from firebrands for a bit (but they've now been pretty much nerfed out of sPvP altogether) it's rarely dominant.

    Guardian and DH, yes.
    FB is definitely overloaded though.

    I mean in exchange for losing 3 actives they get 15 actives instead.
    In fact, PoF in general, just overloads Especs.

    I feel like all HoT specs are fairly balanced.

    If I play a stupid build, I deserve to die.
    If I beat people on a stupid build, I deserve to get away with it.

  • Dawdler.8521Dawdler.8521 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 26, 2020

    @Yasai.3549 said:

    @draxynnic.3719 said:

    The common line "guardian is in a good place" reflects that guardian is the closest to achieving the standard that ArenaNet is aiming for all professions to reach. Solid mechanics, versatile, all traitlines have their uses, and in PvP it's pretty much always present but apart from firebrands for a bit (but they've now been pretty much nerfed out of sPvP altogether) it's rarely dominant.

    Guardian and DH, yes.
    FB is definitely overloaded though.

    I mean in exchange for losing 3 actives they get 15 actives instead.
    In fact, PoF in general, just overloads Especs.

    I feel like all HoT specs are fairly balanced.

    HoT heavily overloaded it's specs on release (and nerfed core before).
    PoF heavily overloaded it's specs on release (and nerfed HoT before).

    It's a pattern you know, lol. The only reason PoF specs are still "strong" is... you can guess it... EoD isnt released yet.

    gaggle - /ˈɡaɡ(ə)l/ - noun
    A disorderly group of Asura.
    "The gaggle of Asura tried to agree on whether a phase-shifted thermonuclear energy matrix was sufficiently powerful for a device capable of heating bread"

  • Yasai.3549Yasai.3549 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 26, 2020

    @Dawdler.8521 said:

    Guardian and DH, yes.
    FB is definitely overloaded though.

    I mean in exchange for losing 3 actives they get 15 actives instead.
    In fact, PoF in general, just overloads Especs.

    I feel like all HoT specs are fairly balanced.

    HoT heavily overloaded it's specs on release (and nerfed core before).
    PoF heavily overloaded it's specs on release (and nerfed HoT before).

    It's a pattern you know, lol. The only reason PoF specs are still "strong" is... you can guess it... EoD isnt released yet.

    I meant more like, PoF was overloading to the extent where it pushed Core down so hard that it just couldn't compete anymore.
    This is just gonna get worse with EoD

    Tradeoffs is just a ridiculous excuse at this point to slam dunk Epsec before the next shiny powercreep.

    If I play a stupid build, I deserve to die.
    If I beat people on a stupid build, I deserve to get away with it.