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Can this single change save core ele in pvp?


Khalisto.5780

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i assume you mean 6s attunement cooldown?

the short answer is no.

the long answer is:

  • ele's defense is a messyou're basically forced into a now nerfed focus. dagger offhand while good in theory lacks the necessary defense because sustain damage is too high. you can pretty much smoke staff and warhorn. utility skills don't help much defense wise because they've been nerfed too or just suck.

  • ele deals no damage other than burning and even that is subpar if you don't run swordfresh air nerfed, arcane utility skills nerfed, lightning rod nerfed. even if those dealt good damage ele's defense on dps builds would still be horrendous.

  • ele is extremely reliant on multiple stats. ele pretty much profits from all the stats at the same time.all weapons have burning and bleeding, all weapons have healing, ele needs vit because of hp pool, ele needs toughness because of armor class.basically all weaponsare hybrid damage weapons so you kinda want power prec crit% too. celestial is gone now so you either have to run full power or sage, wasting half of your skills' damage.

  • core ele has been power crept so hard everything on it is weak.core ele's skills do one particular thing quite good. but that's the problem, one. they either heal, deal damage, or are utility. skills of other builds do everything at once.i'm not saying ele skills should do everything at once too, it's the other way around.

  • ele needs traits to deal damage. traits don't enhance ele, they define it. try playing a dps build without air. playing burning without fire kinda works i guess.

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@Jekkt.6045 said:i assume you mean 6s attunement cooldown?

the short answer is no.

the long answer is ele's defense is a mess, making it obligatory to run a now nerfed focus.

ele deals no damage other than burning and even that is subpar if you don't run sword.

celestial is gone.

core ele has been power crept so hard everything on it is weak.

ele is extremely reliant on multiple stats

edit: work in progress

Now i see the reason they nerfed focus 5

All other classes panic button requires an utility slot, ele's is mistform but you still got your focus 5 but it could be 40 secs

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@FrownyClown.8402 said:Core ele either doesnt do enough damage or dies too quickly. This is in pvp. They are below average in wvw but superior stats can make it somewhat work if you really enjoy core. Ive already suggested many things, but im beating a dead horse at this point.

Only core ele build that worked for me so far was bunker, i gathered all defensive traits in one build, it works fine till 1550.

I tried a lot of dps like you said every tiny bit you invest in dmg you lose a lot of sustain as a counterpart

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I've managed to make one core Ele build work thus far. It's a condi staff build that runs earth, water, and arcane. Your main goal is to burst with Fire 3 and signet of fire and then quickly load up the target with cover condis. Play safe for 12 secs until burst is back, drop some minor support in teamfights, repeat.

It works better than you might assume on paper. Asuming you get the condis to stick, you can drop your target quickly. You can also use your CC's to prevent your target from cleansing, provided their cleanse isn't also their stunbreak. It's able to carry games at around Gold 3, consistently topping dps and healing.

I believe it could work in plat, because I know for a fact that I am not playing the build to its full potential, but my motivation to grind ranked has been too low lately to try.

At the very least, it's fun to kite the myriad of burn guards and watch them flail their arms helplessly as they die to burning. Irony at its finest.

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Now that Cele is gone, Core Ele lost a lot of its viability. With Cele, there was a chance to make a bruiser type build.

Like someone mentioned earlier, there's so many different stats you need for core Ele to work, the only amulets available now is a 4 Stat amulet that doesn't have vitality. Easy to play 1v1 if you know the class but the build blows up instantly with any type of enemy focus.

This problem wouldn't be fixed with lower attunement CD's. A buff like that would benefit Arcane traitline use. But even so, it's still not enough to bring core Ele back

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@Kuma.1503 said:I've managed to make one core Ele build work thus far. It's a condi staff build that runs earth, water, and arcane. Your main goal is to burst with Fire 3 and signet of fire and then quickly load up the target with cover condis. Play safe for 12 secs until burst is back, drop some minor support in teamfights, repeat.

It works better than you might assume on paper. Asuming you get the condis to stick, you can drop your target quickly. You can also use your CC's to prevent your target from cleansing, provided their cleanse isn't also their stunbreak. It's able to carry games at around Gold 3, consistently topping dps and healing.

I believe it could work in plat, because I know for a fact that I am not playing the build to its full potential, but my motivation to grind ranked has been too low lately to try.

At the very least, it's fun to kite the myriad of burn guards and watch them flail their arms helplessly as they die to burning. Irony at its finest.

There is a guy in my guild running a similar build, staff earth/arcane/X. Both pet skills, fire signet and mistform. Rabid/ undead. I have seen him pull his weight up to plat with this build several times. Now that power builds are more dominant this build is even better. Cuz condi thief or any burst condi build would hardcounter it

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@Khalisto.5780 said:6 secs attunements cd

This would increase the amount of passive procs and more room to cover your kitten from rotation mistakes

Weaver and tempest remain the same

The reasons this won't work are :

A) Like weaver it would have problems with stable might generationB) You need 3 dps trait lines currently only 2 works for power and 2 works for condi the rest is garbage (at least for pvp)atmc) The elite specs like the other already said of ele have absurd modifiers. Especially weaver.

10% more dmg for under swiftness , 10% more dmg for full attunements, 15% more crit chance(in pvp) for the enemy being weakened.

Actually the last part is really hard to calculate what it really means and depends a bit on the view point and specs. In optimal case it just means 'only' 15% more dmg what this actually implies are the crit modifier which ele has which is 250% on top of it = 3.5x. This is all with probability but in average this means then 37.5% more dmg . This is because you getting 15% closer to the 250% . I should note this is only true so long you are not cap on the 100% crit chance.

Now the total dmg of weaver modifiers because of this also complicated because you have now the base dmg and the crit dmg increases by 20% and then the increased crit chance = > 20% + (250% (1+20%)15%) = 65% (ups the check calculation gave me 63% but it should be around there )

So What you can do is :

A) Return stable might generation to fire trait lineB) Arcane trait line has the problem that dmg only increase with each boon but it is properly the best option for a 3th trait line . Because of all the boon nerfs this became obsolete what sometimes is used is Elemental surge for an cc build(control wizard) or with Arcane might for pre buff in PvE.

The other trait option would be water yes it has a dmg modifier in it but in PvP it is only 5% people complained about it had 10% before actually people have no clue what they complained about back then. The same way the 15% more crit chance increase dps drastically here it get reduced drastically because of the missing fury boon -50%(if you include the crit modifier again) . on top of this it was the mender built (swordmender) this further precession were gone . So it actually needed a boost not a reduction.

C) The crit modifier in weaver is a mess , yes it basically makes the weaver rota what it is but only partially they still give you swiftness. My suggestion long ago was to remove the trait and move into core and give then basically each weapons set a way to apply weakened or forgot the mechanic and only change the crit chance. Yes this would also mean to rebalance Tempest(which then has also access to this) . What I suggested instead of the trait would be 15% more dmg from water attacks.

What also noticeable is some PvE fractal builds don't use this trait at all which makes the trait very questionable.

Basically you need to this to make a core ele viable

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As of now, Core Ele is penalized for being the jack of all trades. They can do a little bit of everything and yet it never adds up to anything. That's why the Elites are so much better. Tempest and Weaver have a defined role; all you need is One or Two elements to fulfill your goal. No need to even invest in the other two.

For Core Ele to be viable, buff traits to solely affect Core Ele. For Example, every Adept Minor affects a certain Element. As Jack of all trades, add a buff so that all elements play to their advantage.Empowering Flame- Gain 150 Power while in Fire Attunement. Core Elementalists gain increased power in all attunementsZephyr's Speed- Move 25% Faster while attuned to air. Core Elementalists move faster in all attunementsStone Flesh- Gain 7% Damage Reduction while attuned to Earth. Core Elementalists gain damage reduction in all attunementsSoothing Mist- You and nearby allies recover health while you are attuned to water. Core Elementalists recover health while attuned to all attunements.

Give Core Ele a chance to be good at a little bit of everything. These would not be drastic changes, but enough to give an edge. Otherwise, it would always be more advantageous to solely spec into one attunement with an elite specialization, rather than trying to master all elements with Core.

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Ya that sort of thing is the only way to make core ele work anymore. It needs to almost be celestial baseline to function. It would be interesting to see how an un-nerfed D/D Cele Ele would be in this day and age. It would probably be more on par with the new elites. The problem was it was out before any expansions and elite classes so it was too much for it's time , but I doubt it would be anything game breaking compared to the things we have running around nowdays.

I think in order for Ele to really be able to be jack of all trade the baseline of all of it's abilities need to be scaled way up so that it functioned as a solid B class in all areas. As it is now it starts baseline at absolute trash tier in all respects and then needs you to allocate points into the areas you don't want to be complete crap at. Thats now how the jack of all trades should be , they should baseline be decent at everything , and then you could use the traitlines to fill one role well. Or the opposite approach would be to massively increase the relative stat points you get just for being in an atunement +1k healing when your in water , but then have a very long CD on returning to any element. So you function very well at all the roles , but you have to very very certain you want to leave an element because it will be a long time before you can return to it.but even doing that the skills on the weapons are not set up that way , water isnt exclusively healing skills etc. Thats why i think just making the skills themselves start out all being decent , and letting the stats+ traits just push the focus into a certain role is probably better.

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@"Stallic.2397" said:As of now, Core Ele is penalized for being the jack of all trades. They can do a little bit of everything and yet it never adds up to anything. That's why the Elites are so much better. Tempest and Weaver have a defined role; all you need is One or Two elements to fulfill your goal. No need to even invest in the other two.

For Core Ele to be viable, buff traits to solely affect Core Ele. For Example, every Adept Minor affects a certain Element. As Jack of all trades, add a buff so that all elements play to their advantage.Empowering Flame- Gain 150 Power while in Fire Attunement. Core Elementalists gain increased power in all attunementsZephyr's Speed- Move 25% Faster while attuned to air. Core Elementalists move faster in all attunementsStone Flesh- Gain 7% Damage Reduction while attuned to Earth. Core Elementalists gain damage reduction in all attunementsSoothing Mist- You and nearby allies recover health while you are attuned to water. Core Elementalists recover health while attuned to all attunements.

Give Core Ele a chance to be good at a little bit of everything. These would not be drastic changes, but enough to give an edge. Otherwise, it would always be more advantageous to solely spec into one attunement with an elite specialization, rather than trying to master all elements with Core.

I don't think this "affect core ele only" can be made, i don't think anet wanna go that way too.

Problem is the elites have too much potencial to make a good modifier too good. So they'll have to nerf both elites to the ground to finally bring ele up.

The best idea i had was fill other traits with extra bonus based on other attunents you have equipped

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No, the problem isnt attun CDs, if you know what youre doing you get to use your AAs 1-2s at best to fill gaps in CDs. Problem is somewhere else.There was a time slightly before and after february patch that I was angry at what theyre doing with Weaver so I switched solely to d/d core ele, still playing it from time to time. Is is out of meta? Certainly, you have to do everything perfectly in order to even stand against 'even' matchups on paper. You lack sustain, you lack damage, you lack utility. Basically whole world against you. However, just like all other specs, if youre good you can carry core to plat without much...struggle. But its more about punishing opponents and decent map rotation than what core is offering. Problems starts when you notice how many classes actually counter you, and theres not much you can do about it.Here you can have an example in WvW with wide stats selection, I also played decent amount of games in sPvP with like marshal or cele(kek) amulets, works similar. In 1vX (so basically teamfights) its not so bad either, of course it struggles under heavy focus but you can survive long enough to make other teammates useful enough to kill some1 from enemy team (also you have few AoE CCs like updraft that combined with shock aura makes deadly weapon which can be done solely with d/d, match it with fire dd burst and you get 10k aoe damage against squishes under 1.5s, juicy). Reaper is straightforward hardcounter to d/d ele, but its still not so bad. And if some1 was about to ask, yes, necro lad knows what hes doing, really good reaper.

Conclusion - its not dead, but you have to carry your class, not other way around. Attun change wont do much, core needs boost in its vital parts to either deal more damage so you can safely build around sustain, or more sustain to build around damage. Atm you need to do both, which is impossible, and deleting more and more amulets aint helping either.

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Core ele has the advantage of taking 3 elemental traitlines. Change written in stone to provide barrier on signet use. Boom, sustain on a signet build. Normalize the cd of glyph of storms to 30s and reduce heal glyph to 20s again. GoEP shouldnt be an offensive utility and a stunbreak. Either change the damage modifier to a damage reducer or change how it works. Boom, access to valuable boons outside of arcane.

Core has the tools it just needs a nudge in the right direction.

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Like others have said when i played pvp and noticed how weak it is, its just inferior in stab and also options for might gain.

Heat sink gives almost no might gen not sure if i'm missing something but only way i found to get 20 stacks and even then not for long, is to use overload fire+ feel the burn+heat sink for 20+ stacks of might.

Plus tempest offers tons of other boons with overload like water with regen vigor etc.

I think they need to find a way to make them sustain better, i mean engineers had sustain stuff built in right? well ele needs it to survive, or way more mobility and evade options to survive on core. My guess also, is nerfing some of the cds for stuff like teleport and mist form didn't help at all, in fact its worse because ele feels glassier than ever.

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@Aktium.9506 said:

@Axl.8924 said:i mean engineers had sustain stuff built in right?scrapper and holo traitlines does

otherwise i'm pretty sure core engi is the weakest core spec of them all

Core ele, not long ago a guy made a post with a video with his core engi, skilled gameplay btw. People are just not good enough to squeeze core engi full potential, but when they do it is clearly better than core ele.

Core ele attack/defense balance is a mess rn, so you always end up with no dmg or no sustain

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Core doesn't have this good balance in between Offense and Defense. It takes way too much effort when playing either way as well, it does play pretty good against some builds but rarely stands a chance against the higher tiers because those have a better balance in between their abilities.

Stuff like Stone Armor or Mist Form have cooldowns that are way too high and could be lower. Elementalist is light armor, whether it has a lot of options or not is no excuse for having cooldowns so high, especially when base health is extremely low, why should most of the utility be impossible to use but everything in the e-spec totally fine or way better. It makes no sense.

There's like huge potential that's stopped short by the lack of sustain options and when you go into having sustain, you lose practically all damage.

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