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WvW Soul beast needs a giant nerf!

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  • All this being said, a full Minstrel Guardian can be 100-0 by Rapid Fire + OWP on full memebeast setup, but sure there is nothing to see here right? Wasn't the point of the Feb. patch to bring this sort of stuff in line, but while targeted nerfs were what was needed we instead got blanket 20-35% damage reductions that were not even levied evenly across the classes.

  • bigo.9037bigo.9037 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Dawdler.8521 said:

    @bigo.9037 said:

    @Lan Deathrider.5910 said:
    All this being said, a full Minstrel Guardian can be 100-0 by Rapid Fire + OWP on full memebeast setup, but sure there is nothing to see here right? Wasn't the point of the Feb. patch to bring this sort of stuff in line, but while targeted nerfs were what was needed we instead got blanket 20-35% damage reductions that were not even levied evenly across the classes.

    i would love to see an example of this actually happening cus i have yet to pull that off unless a chrono is boon ripping the kitten out of the fb at the same time. and again, FB has PLENTY of tools to deal with pewpew. full minstrel fb is easily over 3000armor correct? probably more like 3200 iirc. add protection, aegis, 1 dodge and the dmg you’re likely to deal to a minstrel is closer to 25-30% at best, if he doesn’t just block it.

    killing noobs who don’t know what they are doing doesn’t mean anything. pulling a build off discord playing it for 20 hours on fb and thinking you’re gonna be immortal is just silly. if you want that i’d refer you to minstrel auramancer tempest lmao.

    Thinking armor will automatically protect you is equally silly. Its effectivly nullified by just the voulnerability stacks. Hell the other day a reaper autoattacked me for 4-8k and yes, thats on 3200 armor.

    @Dawdler.8521 said:

    @bigo.9037 said:

    @Lan Deathrider.5910 said:
    All this being said, a full Minstrel Guardian can be 100-0 by Rapid Fire + OWP on full memebeast setup, but sure there is nothing to see here right? Wasn't the point of the Feb. patch to bring this sort of stuff in line, but while targeted nerfs were what was needed we instead got blanket 20-35% damage reductions that were not even levied evenly across the classes.

    i would love to see an example of this actually happening cus i have yet to pull that off unless a chrono is boon ripping the kitten out of the fb at the same time. and again, FB has PLENTY of tools to deal with pewpew. full minstrel fb is easily over 3000armor correct? probably more like 3200 iirc. add protection, aegis, 1 dodge and the dmg you’re likely to deal to a minstrel is closer to 25-30% at best, if he doesn’t just block it.

    killing noobs who don’t know what they are doing doesn’t mean anything. pulling a build off discord playing it for 20 hours on fb and thinking you’re gonna be immortal is just silly. if you want that i’d refer you to minstrel auramancer tempest lmao.

    Thinking armor will automatically protect you is equally silly. Its effectivly nullified by just the voulnerability stacks. Hell the other day a reaper autoattacked me for 4-8k and yes, thats on 3200 armor.

    yea and one time i got 1shot by full soldiers warrior eviscerate. anything can happen mid fight with other people around.

    rapidfire applies 1 single stack of vuln per HIT, so you only have 10 stacks at the END of RF. so your argument is kitten. you’re getting less than 10% dmg from vuln stacks on the RF. 2200 armor vs 2500 is gonna make a huge difference especially if you have access to protection.

    according to you people, OWP sicem RF just instantly melts everything from full zerk stats weaver to full minstrel FB no matter what and it’s honestly hilarious how strong you think it is.

  • KrHome.1920KrHome.1920 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 30, 2020

    Berserker/Marauder Longbow Soulbeast is countered by Soldier/Wanderer gear.
    Soldier/Wanderer gear is countered by Condi Builds.
    Condi Builds are countered by Berserker/Marauder Longbow Soulbeast.

    Rock Paper Scissors guys!

    That said: Neither Boonbeast nor Immob Druid are in line in terms of balancing (we are speaking about WvW here!). Both need further nerfs to sustain/cc. But Glass-Beast is simply countered by a Soldier/Wanderer template.

  • @bigo.9037 said:

    @Dawdler.8521 said:

    @bigo.9037 said:

    @Lan Deathrider.5910 said:
    All this being said, a full Minstrel Guardian can be 100-0 by Rapid Fire + OWP on full memebeast setup, but sure there is nothing to see here right? Wasn't the point of the Feb. patch to bring this sort of stuff in line, but while targeted nerfs were what was needed we instead got blanket 20-35% damage reductions that were not even levied evenly across the classes.

    i would love to see an example of this actually happening cus i have yet to pull that off unless a chrono is boon ripping the kitten out of the fb at the same time. and again, FB has PLENTY of tools to deal with pewpew. full minstrel fb is easily over 3000armor correct? probably more like 3200 iirc. add protection, aegis, 1 dodge and the dmg you’re likely to deal to a minstrel is closer to 25-30% at best, if he doesn’t just block it.

    killing noobs who don’t know what they are doing doesn’t mean anything. pulling a build off discord playing it for 20 hours on fb and thinking you’re gonna be immortal is just silly. if you want that i’d refer you to minstrel auramancer tempest lmao.

    Thinking armor will automatically protect you is equally silly. Its effectivly nullified by just the voulnerability stacks. Hell the other day a reaper autoattacked me for 4-8k and yes, thats on 3200 armor.

    @Dawdler.8521 said:

    @bigo.9037 said:

    @Lan Deathrider.5910 said:
    All this being said, a full Minstrel Guardian can be 100-0 by Rapid Fire + OWP on full memebeast setup, but sure there is nothing to see here right? Wasn't the point of the Feb. patch to bring this sort of stuff in line, but while targeted nerfs were what was needed we instead got blanket 20-35% damage reductions that were not even levied evenly across the classes.

    i would love to see an example of this actually happening cus i have yet to pull that off unless a chrono is boon ripping the kitten out of the fb at the same time. and again, FB has PLENTY of tools to deal with pewpew. full minstrel fb is easily over 3000armor correct? probably more like 3200 iirc. add protection, aegis, 1 dodge and the dmg you’re likely to deal to a minstrel is closer to 25-30% at best, if he doesn’t just block it.

    killing noobs who don’t know what they are doing doesn’t mean anything. pulling a build off discord playing it for 20 hours on fb and thinking you’re gonna be immortal is just silly. if you want that i’d refer you to minstrel auramancer tempest lmao.

    Thinking armor will automatically protect you is equally silly. Its effectivly nullified by just the voulnerability stacks. Hell the other day a reaper autoattacked me for 4-8k and yes, thats on 3200 armor.

    yea and one time i got 1shot by full soldiers warrior eviscerate. anything can happen mid fight with other people around.

    rapidfire applies 1 single stack of vuln per HIT, so you only have 10 stacks at the END of RF. so your argument is kitten. you’re getting less than 10% dmg from vuln stacks on the RF. 2200 armor vs 2500 is gonna make a huge difference especially if you have access to protection.

    according to you people, OWP sicem RF just instantly melts everything from full zerk stats weaver to full minstrel FB no matter what and it’s honestly hilarious how strong you think it is.

    Numbers don't lie mate. Sic'em, RF, OWP along with all the relevant modifiers from traits makes that combo hit for enough to kill most builds if all hits crit. The vast majority of that damage is due to Sic'em and OWP. It is a YMMV kind of thing on the RNG but you can make it so that the opening combo always crits:

    Sample Tank setup:
    http://gw2skills.net/editor/?PWABk6x3lJwoYbMM2IWePmLdA-zRJYjx/QUNE8cAC+fmEE-e
    4333 armor, ~20k HP, -10% damage from food, -12% damage from signet.
    Sample is just to showcase pushing defense values.

    Sample Memebeast:
    http://gw2skills.net/editor/?POgAMFlRwAZZsHmJO2W6vyBUA-zVJYiR1/p0kIIMhQFKgWmA26AEyfNC41C-w
    Lead with Signet of the Hunt -> OWP -> PBS -> RF

    Total Damage multiplier is x4.855 (not including fury, including 5 vuln from opening strike). So the combo versus our sample Full Minstrel tank is 25.5k damage versus 20k HP.

    Now that was with a Guardian and not a Warrior.

    Here is a sample tanky Warrior using Sentinel to bolster vitality instead of toughness.:
    http://gw2skills.net/editor/?PKwAc6FOSLWLfA-z1IY6o7vIqKEU9AEw/MJI-w
    3896 armor, ~36k HP. -10% damage from food.

    Sample Memebeast does 35,854 damage versus 35,772 HP.
    A Minstrel warrior would get hit for 28259 damage versus 27,542 btw.

    I could probably push that sample warrior's HP higher, but it wouldn't be a functional build.

    In both of these protection would save them from the spike, but they would still get pounded by the follow up AA hits.

    The point is Memebeast can be built in such a way that it can blow someone's hp away completely with very few CDs used. All it takes is two weapon skills, two utilities, and an elite. Versus someone not in heavy armor you probably do not need to lead with PBS or Sic'em in order to down them.

  • @KrHome.1920 said:
    That's some nice zerker versus standing still target math here. Unfortunately the game has a bit more to offer in terms of fight mechanics.

    Besides that I have bad news for minstrel players: you play a build that relies on others to actually fight. This does not justify being unkillable 1v1. Your focus is at least playing as a duo with someone that can kill a target, but not to troll every single 1v1 you encounter. If you could sustain full zerk builds, then you would be the number one candidate for a hardnerf of your sustain skills

    Well I screwed up the beast link, but it was full Marauder stats, so not even 100% dps lol. That and it lead with PBS, so a target would be cc'd for part of the spike, so might as well be standing still.

    The math is just to prove the point that Soulbeast can be built in such a way that it can blow through a full tank build. Someone not full Sentinel or Minstrel would be dead before they recovered from the cc unless they have a trait that kicks in at certain hp levels. Most of those got nerfed though.

    Someone on a warclaw would get knocked off, and during the dismount you still use the warclaw armor value, so you die quickly in that case.

    Most Soulbeasts don't take the signet from what I have seen though, so you can reverse spike them with earth runes (and I have, they don't get waved to when I stomp them, they get /laugh).

    It's a build that absolutely can get high bursts even on full tank builds. Which is fine to some extent since full tank builds do need a counter, but the solution to that shouldn't be stacking damage modifiers with 20 strikes within 2 seconds.

    Makes me wish armor ignoring power damage existed like in GW1, or at least armor penetration. Missed opportunity by Anet.

  • @Sandzibar.5134 said:

    @Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

    The point is Memebeast can be built in such a way that it can blow someone's hp away completely with very few CDs used. All it takes is two weapon skills, two utilities, and an elite. Versus someone not in heavy armor you probably do not need to lead with PBS or Sic'em in order to down them.

    Sorry.. when is your hypothetical guard vs memebeast engagement occuring?

    Solo when they are running back to the zerg?

    Otherwise Id love a PBS that ignores stab... and dmg that ignores group perma prot... and an unblockable stack that isnt consumed by each target/shield infront of the target guardian. Youd be lucky to hit that guardian with 2 penetrating shots - and then due to the way OWP works they wouldnt take that damage either.

    In the interwebs.

    More of a stand alone encounter. This is just a showcase of how memebeast can be built to override baseline defense in a scenario of full tank versus full glass.

    The assumption here is the Soulbeast attacked first, not hard from 1500 away. But sure stab would negate a PBS, but not the cripple from opening Strike, which would satisfy the requirements for the 15% damage boost.

    And yes, more targets would negate unblockable stacks, but then a Soulbeast should be smart enough to maneuver as well right?

    If you want to compare a guardian roaming build, or warrior roaming build, then you'll end up with each RF+OWP doing more damage. The whole combo would be 50k then versus 2681 armor. Most builds don't have that much armor, and if they do they don't have 50k hp. Realistically you only need the first few hits of the combo to down someone.

    But as I said, most Soulbeasts I've seen don't take the signet, so anybody carrying a block, reflect, or projectile destruction skill on a twitchy finger can negate the burst. Doesn't mean the burst isn't broken.

  • Shroud.2307Shroud.2307 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 30, 2020

    You guys are missing the point entirely, lmao.

    It's that Soulbeast is low risk, low effort.
    You press one button, Dolyak Stance, and you're now immune to all CC with a Prot stacking effect that reduces Condi damage too. With one button you're doing more than half the builds in the game do with several.
    And with memebeast you can blast through someones' health bar from a football field away, and cover the same distance in the opposite direction if they move toward you.

    Nothing is as safe, low risk, and easy as being able to do 15 - 20k damage from 1500 range, with the option to run away if it fails before the target can even cover half that distance.

    Because I know how defensive Ranger mains are, I again want to defend myself by saying I'm not the one asking for nerfs here. But if you can't accept that SlB, be it boon or glass, is one of the lowest effort, lowest risk things you can play in WvW, you're kidding yourself.
    I'm a Necro main and think it's one of the easiest classes for beginners, that the core Unholy Martyr build needs to be deleted, and Lich is still broken even if it's easy to counter. Y'all need to learn to stop having biases for your classes if you want to actually discuss balance or you're not worth talking to.

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  • @bigo.9037 said:

    @Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

    @KrHome.1920 said:
    That's some nice zerker versus standing still target math here. Unfortunately the game has a bit more to offer in terms of fight mechanics.

    Besides that I have bad news for minstrel players: you play a build that relies on others to actually fight. This does not justify being unkillable 1v1. Your focus is at least playing as a duo with someone that can kill a target, but not to troll every single 1v1 you encounter. If you could sustain full zerk builds, then you would be the number one candidate for a hardnerf of your sustain skills

    Well I screwed up the beast link, but it was full Marauder stats, so not even 100% dps lol. That and it lead with PBS, so a target would be cc'd for part of the spike, so might as well be standing still.

    The math is just to prove the point that Soulbeast can be built in such a way that it can blow through a full tank build. Someone not full Sentinel or Minstrel would be dead before they recovered from the cc unless they have a trait that kicks in at certain hp levels. Most of those got nerfed though.

    Someone on a warclaw would get knocked off, and during the dismount you still use the warclaw armor value, so you die quickly in that case.

    Most Soulbeasts don't take the signet from what I have seen though, so you can reverse spike them with earth runes (and I have, they don't get waved to when I stomp them, they get /laugh).

    It's a build that absolutely can get high bursts even on full tank builds. Which is fine to some extent since full tank builds do need a counter, but the solution to that shouldn't be stacking damage modifiers with 20 strikes within 2 seconds.

    Makes me wish armor ignoring power damage existed like in GW1, or at least armor penetration. Missed opportunity by Anet.

    @Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

    @KrHome.1920 said:
    That's some nice zerker versus standing still target math here. Unfortunately the game has a bit more to offer in terms of fight mechanics.

    Besides that I have bad news for minstrel players: you play a build that relies on others to actually fight. This does not justify being unkillable 1v1. Your focus is at least playing as a duo with someone that can kill a target, but not to troll every single 1v1 you encounter. If you could sustain full zerk builds, then you would be the number one candidate for a hardnerf of your sustain skills

    Well I screwed up the beast link, but it was full Marauder stats, so not even 100% dps lol. That and it lead with PBS, so a target would be cc'd for part of the spike, so might as well be standing still.

    The math is just to prove the point that Soulbeast can be built in such a way that it can blow through a full tank build. Someone not full Sentinel or Minstrel would be dead before they recovered from the cc unless they have a trait that kicks in at certain hp levels. Most of those got nerfed though.

    Someone on a warclaw would get knocked off, and during the dismount you still use the warclaw armor value, so you die quickly in that case.

    Most Soulbeasts don't take the signet from what I have seen though, so you can reverse spike them with earth runes (and I have, they don't get waved to when I stomp them, they get /laugh).

    It's a build that absolutely can get high bursts even on full tank builds. Which is fine to some extent since full tank builds do need a counter, but the solution to that shouldn't be stacking damage modifiers with 20 strikes within 2 seconds.

    Makes me wish armor ignoring power damage existed like in GW1, or at least armor penetration. Missed opportunity by Anet.

    guardian uses shield projectile block after his stunbreak.. huh. if your reaction time is so slow you can’t press stunbreak and dodge after PBS hits you in a 1v1 scenario, i don’t know what to tell you. warrior breaks stun and uses shield 5... huh. ranger uses dolyak stance giving him 33% dmg reduction and uses GS 4 block... weaver uses earth invul, earth aura, or friggin any of the other multiple choices you they have. thief has 3 dodges... necro has 2 health bars, rev has evades, the dragon heal thing..

    like come ONNNN there’s so many ways to deal with this stuff it’s getting old. i can’t believe people are talking about this without realizing they have played for 8 years and still suck? maybe you just met a ranger that was actually good and thought they got carried by build idk.

    You do see where I put unblockable in don't you? I may have screwed my link but I do call out the signet. All those players doing those actions would be dead except the rev, necro, and any who hit an invulnerable.> @Sandzibar.5134 said:

    @Lan Deathrider.5910 said:
    But as I said, most Soulbeasts I've seen don't take the signet, so anybody carrying a block, reflect, or projectile destruction skill on a twitchy finger can negate the burst. Doesn't mean the burst isn't broken.

    Well if it was actually broken we'd be seeing a HUGE demand for unstoppable soulbeasts in groups in WvW.. Comms crying out for MOAR BOWS!

    And super sweaty pro roamer / GvG squads like Cake Walk would use Soulbeast more in their self fellating promo vids. Theyve never used one. Not once.

    If soulbeast was broken in sPvP then Boyce wouldnt be playing holo/rev most of the time in mATs and easymode Sind sure as hell wouldnt be on teef.

    So. Respectfully I think you are utterly utterly wrong on how broken Soulbeast is.

    Its good at killing bads and newbies, and thats it.

    That's because retaliation would eat them lol. That's a lot of retaliation procs.
    Zerg v zerg versus small scale and roaming. Ranger has very limited value in zergs, but that is due to it's weapon sets favoring 1v1 matchups or having numerous strikes which retaliation punishes.

    Soulbeast is strongest in roaming and small scale. And you are overestimating the skill level of the general player populace. Most of us here are probably all capable of holding our own versus such a build, but there are a large number of bad players in WvW. It's also a game mode where you can get pegged with your sustain on CD and out of dodges when another player shows up after you finished one fight just to down you.

  • @Shroud.2307 said:
    You guys are missing the point entirely, lmao.

    It's that Soulbeast is low risk, low effort.
    You press one button, Dolyak Stance, and you're now immune to all CC with a Prot stacking effect that reduces Condi damage too. With one button you're doing more than half the builds in the game do with several.
    And with memebeast you can blast through someones' health bar from a football field away, and cover the same distance in the opposite direction if they move toward you.

    Nothing is as safe, low risk, and easy as being able to do 15 - 20k damage from 1500 range, with the option to run away if it fails before the target can even cover half that distance.

    Because I know how defensive Ranger mains are, I again want to defend myself by saying I'm not the one asking for nerfs here. But if you can't accept that SlB, be it boon or glass, is one of the lowest effort, lowest risk things you can play in WvW, you're kidding yourself.
    I'm a Necro main and think it's one of the easiest classes for beginners, that the core Unholy Martyr build needs to be deleted, and Lich is still broken even if it's easy to counter. Y'all need to learn to stop having biases for your classes if you want to actually discuss balance or you're not worth talking to.

    This.

    I play a Soulbeast. I can firmly say there are things on it that are broken. Those being OWP, Dolyak, Sic'em, and attack of opportunity.

    I play a reaper. Lich form is broken. I personally feel that reaper has no tradeoff and is a straight upgrade and could use a stiffer tradeoff. Some things on core need buffing though.

    I play a DH. Burn DH is broken af. Longbow is clunky and needs a rework though.

    And I play warrior, warrior is in need of several buffs... Gunflame still hits hard, but hey at least Bulls Charge and all of hammer tickles now right?

  • Dawdler.8521Dawdler.8521 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @bigo.9037 said:

    @Dawdler.8521 said:

    @bigo.9037 said:

    @Lan Deathrider.5910 said:
    All this being said, a full Minstrel Guardian can be 100-0 by Rapid Fire + OWP on full memebeast setup, but sure there is nothing to see here right? Wasn't the point of the Feb. patch to bring this sort of stuff in line, but while targeted nerfs were what was needed we instead got blanket 20-35% damage reductions that were not even levied evenly across the classes.

    i would love to see an example of this actually happening cus i have yet to pull that off unless a chrono is boon ripping the kitten out of the fb at the same time. and again, FB has PLENTY of tools to deal with pewpew. full minstrel fb is easily over 3000armor correct? probably more like 3200 iirc. add protection, aegis, 1 dodge and the dmg you’re likely to deal to a minstrel is closer to 25-30% at best, if he doesn’t just block it.

    killing noobs who don’t know what they are doing doesn’t mean anything. pulling a build off discord playing it for 20 hours on fb and thinking you’re gonna be immortal is just silly. if you want that i’d refer you to minstrel auramancer tempest lmao.

    Thinking armor will automatically protect you is equally silly. Its effectivly nullified by just the voulnerability stacks. Hell the other day a reaper autoattacked me for 4-8k and yes, thats on 3200 armor.

    @Dawdler.8521 said:

    @bigo.9037 said:

    @Lan Deathrider.5910 said:
    All this being said, a full Minstrel Guardian can be 100-0 by Rapid Fire + OWP on full memebeast setup, but sure there is nothing to see here right? Wasn't the point of the Feb. patch to bring this sort of stuff in line, but while targeted nerfs were what was needed we instead got blanket 20-35% damage reductions that were not even levied evenly across the classes.

    i would love to see an example of this actually happening cus i have yet to pull that off unless a chrono is boon ripping the kitten out of the fb at the same time. and again, FB has PLENTY of tools to deal with pewpew. full minstrel fb is easily over 3000armor correct? probably more like 3200 iirc. add protection, aegis, 1 dodge and the dmg you’re likely to deal to a minstrel is closer to 25-30% at best, if he doesn’t just block it.

    killing noobs who don’t know what they are doing doesn’t mean anything. pulling a build off discord playing it for 20 hours on fb and thinking you’re gonna be immortal is just silly. if you want that i’d refer you to minstrel auramancer tempest lmao.

    Thinking armor will automatically protect you is equally silly. Its effectivly nullified by just the voulnerability stacks. Hell the other day a reaper autoattacked me for 4-8k and yes, thats on 3200 armor.

    yea and one time i got 1shot by full soldiers warrior eviscerate. anything can happen mid fight with other people around.

    rapidfire applies 1 single stack of vuln per HIT, so you only have 10 stacks at the END of RF. so your argument is kitten. you’re getting less than 10% dmg from vuln stacks on the RF. 2200 armor vs 2500 is gonna make a huge difference especially if you have access to protection.

    according to you people, OWP sicem RF just instantly melts everything from full zerk stats weaver to full minstrel FB no matter what and it’s honestly hilarious how strong you think it is.

    Damage mitigation difference of rapid fire against 2200 and 2500 armor is ~10%. I'm sure the target is jubilant his armor made such a huge difference.

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  • ArchonWing.9480ArchonWing.9480 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 30, 2020

    @Shroud.2307 said:
    You guys are missing the point entirely, lmao.

    It's that Soulbeast is low risk, low effort.
    You press one button, Dolyak Stance, and you're now immune to all CC with a Prot stacking effect that reduces Condi damage too. With one button you're doing more than half the builds in the game do with several.
    And with memebeast you can blast through someones' health bar from a football field away, and cover the same distance in the opposite direction if they move toward you.

    Nothing is as safe, low risk, and easy as being able to do 15 - 20k damage from 1500 range, with the option to run away if it fails before the target can even cover half that distance.

    Because I know how defensive Ranger mains are, I again want to defend myself by saying I'm not the one asking for nerfs here. But if you can't accept that SlB, be it boon or glass, is one of the lowest effort, lowest risk things you can play in WvW, you're kidding yourself.
    I'm a Necro main and think it's one of the easiest classes for beginners, that the core Unholy Martyr build needs to be deleted, and Lich is still broken even if it's easy to counter. Y'all need to learn to stop having biases for your classes if you want to actually discuss balance or you're not worth talking to.

    I mean sure, but what roaming build is a "high effort" build anyways? Most of it ends up to be the most braindead stuff anyways. Not to mention putting effort into killing randoms is kinda pointless in this day and age. I would also further add that there's such bad balance between traits and skills within traits that if you're not picking the flavors of the month, that it almost feels like your handicapping yourself-- some traits are so good you'd be foolish not to take them, and some traits are so bad you'd be a fool to take it.

    Necro has barely any stab, blocks or mobility so it makes sense that they have a few broken damage skills. Condi kitten core is indeed annoying and dumb, but it's little more than a nuisance. However, I find it strange that people get so angry because they found a necro that cannot be killed when thieves, rangers, or engis can break combat whenever and I play those 3 much more often than necro. Personally, I don't get how necro roaming works at all due to the mobility. I need to be carried by some get out of jail free cards.

    I mean I guess warrior is kinda hard to play with all those nerfs?

  • UmbraNoctis.1907UmbraNoctis.1907 Member ✭✭✭
    edited December 31, 2020

    @Shroud.2307 said:
    You guys are missing the point entirely, lmao.

    It's that Soulbeast is low risk, low effort.
    You press one button, Dolyak Stance, and you're now immune to all CC with a Prot stacking effect that reduces Condi damage too. With one button you're doing more than half the builds in the game do with several.
    And with memebeast you can blast through someones' health bar from a football field away, and cover the same distance in the opposite direction if they move toward you.

    Nothing is as safe, low risk, and easy as being able to do 15 - 20k damage from 1500 range, with the option to run away if it fails before the target can even cover half that distance.

    Because I know how defensive Ranger mains are, I again want to defend myself by saying I'm not the one asking for nerfs here. But if you can't accept that SlB, be it boon or glass, is one of the lowest effort, lowest risk things you can play in WvW, you're kidding yourself.
    I'm a Necro main and think it's one of the easiest classes for beginners, that the core Unholy Martyr build needs to be deleted, and Lich is still broken even if it's easy to counter. Y'all need to learn to stop having biases for your classes if you want to actually discuss balance or you're not worth talking to.

    While this is kinda true, ultimatively low risk/effort is much more a matter of what fights someone picks than what class/build someone plays. Pew pew soulbeast is so easy and low risk to play because it can deal a lot of dmg from safe spots such as towers or zergs and that's exactly what most of them do. But that type of gameplay is not exclusive to rangers. The vast majority of WvW players is looking for safe and easy fights, only ever engaging in combat with superior numbers. The epitome of easy and low risk gameplay - regardless of class. So pointing fingers at a paticular build when it comes to "easy and low risk" seems like hypocrisy to me.
    Take away the external safety nets, pit someone alone against a bunch of hungry gankers and suddenly even those braindead easy to play builds aren't that easy anymore.

    That being said, i do think Dolyak Stance is op and could use some nerfs (cd increase to 40-45s ), same with protection uptime of boon beasts (Protective Ward, Moa Stance, Dura runes - these things need to get looked at imo.) I'm fine with the dmg tho. I was advocating for Sic'Em nerfs in the past, but nowadays it doesn't seem to be that op anymore. Cerainly does not have to be a full tank to deal with it, dura rune and dodge roll tend to be enough of a counter (works also great vs other gank builds).

    @ArchonWing.9480 said:

    I mean sure, but what roaming build is a "high effort" build anyways? [...]

    As if it is any different for zerg builds ...

  • @ArchonWing.9480 said:

    @Shroud.2307 said:
    You guys are missing the point entirely, lmao.

    It's that Soulbeast is low risk, low effort.
    You press one button, Dolyak Stance, and you're now immune to all CC with a Prot stacking effect that reduces Condi damage too. With one button you're doing more than half the builds in the game do with several.
    And with memebeast you can blast through someones' health bar from a football field away, and cover the same distance in the opposite direction if they move toward you.

    Nothing is as safe, low risk, and easy as being able to do 15 - 20k damage from 1500 range, with the option to run away if it fails before the target can even cover half that distance.

    Because I know how defensive Ranger mains are, I again want to defend myself by saying I'm not the one asking for nerfs here. But if you can't accept that SlB, be it boon or glass, is one of the lowest effort, lowest risk things you can play in WvW, you're kidding yourself.
    I'm a Necro main and think it's one of the easiest classes for beginners, that the core Unholy Martyr build needs to be deleted, and Lich is still broken even if it's easy to counter. Y'all need to learn to stop having biases for your classes if you want to actually discuss balance or you're not worth talking to.

    I mean sure, but what roaming build is a "high effort" build anyways? Most of it ends up to be the most braindead stuff anyways. Not to mention putting effort into killing randoms is kinda pointless in this day and age. I would also further add that there's such bad balance between traits and skills within traits that if you're not picking the flavors of the month, that it almost feels like your handicapping yourself-- some traits are so good you'd be foolish not to take them, and some traits are so bad you'd be a fool to take it.

    Necro has barely any stab, blocks or mobility so it makes sense that they have a few broken damage skills. Condi kitten core is indeed annoying and dumb, but it's little more than a nuisance. However, I find it strange that people get so angry because they found a necro that cannot be killed when thieves, rangers, or engis can break combat whenever and I play those 3 much more often than necro. Personally, I don't get how necro roaming works at all due to the mobility. I need to be carried by some get out of jail free cards.

    I mean I guess warrior is kinda hard to play with all those nerfs?

    For necro go Reaper and use Shroud 2 and Speed of Shadows to zip around, bonus mobility if you use speed runes. Corrosive Poison Cloud will surprise more rangers than rangers on the forums will care to admit out loud. I've used it before to dive into a camp with RI just to murder a ranger who thought they were safe from me. Stomped him to. With RI on the supervisor.

    Warrior is in meh shape right now. I've made some builds that hold up well in fights, others that I want to do better that just don't. Constantly permeating through warrior traits and weapons to find things that work best.

    Oddly enough the build that I ran as a warrior that did the best post Feb. nerf was a Sentinel build that used Arms to make up for the Precision and Ferocity loss on gear. Had enough Marauder pieces or runes to get to 50% crit chance with fury up, used burst precision and unsuspecting foe to get to 100% crit from there.

    That and axe/axe + rifle.

    They really nerfed rifle damage too much, but the vulnerability and immob from Leg specialist sneaks up on people more often than you would think. If Rifle damage was even 15% higher it would be a viable weapon overall outside of MemeFlame and MemeShot builds.

  • ArchonWing.9480ArchonWing.9480 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @UmbraNoctis.1907 said:

    As if it is any different for zerg builds ...

    Yea sure.

    @Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

    @ArchonWing.9480 said:

    @Shroud.2307 said:
    You guys are missing the point entirely, lmao.

    It's that Soulbeast is low risk, low effort.
    You press one button, Dolyak Stance, and you're now immune to all CC with a Prot stacking effect that reduces Condi damage too. With one button you're doing more than half the builds in the game do with several.
    And with memebeast you can blast through someones' health bar from a football field away, and cover the same distance in the opposite direction if they move toward you.

    Nothing is as safe, low risk, and easy as being able to do 15 - 20k damage from 1500 range, with the option to run away if it fails before the target can even cover half that distance.

    Because I know how defensive Ranger mains are, I again want to defend myself by saying I'm not the one asking for nerfs here. But if you can't accept that SlB, be it boon or glass, is one of the lowest effort, lowest risk things you can play in WvW, you're kidding yourself.
    I'm a Necro main and think it's one of the easiest classes for beginners, that the core Unholy Martyr build needs to be deleted, and Lich is still broken even if it's easy to counter. Y'all need to learn to stop having biases for your classes if you want to actually discuss balance or you're not worth talking to.

    I mean sure, but what roaming build is a "high effort" build anyways? Most of it ends up to be the most braindead stuff anyways. Not to mention putting effort into killing randoms is kinda pointless in this day and age. I would also further add that there's such bad balance between traits and skills within traits that if you're not picking the flavors of the month, that it almost feels like your handicapping yourself-- some traits are so good you'd be foolish not to take them, and some traits are so bad you'd be a fool to take it.

    Necro has barely any stab, blocks or mobility so it makes sense that they have a few broken damage skills. Condi kitten core is indeed annoying and dumb, but it's little more than a nuisance. However, I find it strange that people get so angry because they found a necro that cannot be killed when thieves, rangers, or engis can break combat whenever and I play those 3 much more often than necro. Personally, I don't get how necro roaming works at all due to the mobility. I need to be carried by some get out of jail free cards.

    I mean I guess warrior is kinda hard to play with all those nerfs?

    For necro go Reaper and use Shroud 2 and Speed of Shadows to zip around, bonus mobility if you use speed runes. Corrosive Poison Cloud will surprise more rangers than rangers on the forums will care to admit out loud. I've used it before to dive into a camp with RI just to murder a ranger who thought they were safe from me. Stomped him to. With RI on the supervisor.

    Warrior is in meh shape right now. I've made some builds that hold up well in fights, others that I want to do better that just don't. Constantly permeating through warrior traits and weapons to find things that work best.

    Oddly enough the build that I ran as a warrior that did the best post Feb. nerf was a Sentinel build that used Arms to make up for the Precision and Ferocity loss on gear. Had enough Marauder pieces or runes to get to 50% crit chance with fury up, used burst precision and unsuspecting foe to get to 100% crit from there.

    That and axe/axe + rifle.

    They really nerfed rifle damage too much, but the vulnerability and immob from Leg specialist sneaks up on people more often than you would think. If Rifle damage was even 15% higher it would be a viable weapon overall outside of MemeFlame and MemeShot builds.

    That's some interesting stuff right there, thanks. Already use Speed of Shadows. I've always been too worried about the self-condis, but better than being shot to death.

    Also GL with the warrior testing; will be waiting for it or Anet lol.

  • melandru.3876melandru.3876 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @bigo.9037 said:

    @melandru.3876 said:

    @bigo.9037 said:

    @melandru.3876 said:

    @anduriell.6280 said:

    @melandru.3876 said:

    @anduriell.6280 said:

    @melandru.3876 said:
    iroically you are the soulbeast main who created dozens of topic trying to make soulbeast work in wvw (squad play, and yes weaver is the highest dps option)
    "asking the game to adapt what you want" is literally you, in all said above threads crying for fixes and buffs

    I'm asking for changes (sometimes buffs other times nerfs) on the classes i play and you are asking for nerfs on anything you don't like and neither know or understand.
    Learn the difference.

    show me where i ask for a nerf
    i await your quote

    Sure my pleasure, the ones in the first page of the subforum.
    https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/120143/nerfs-the-ranger-class-as-a-whole-needs-please-anet
    https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/109880/druids-need-the-pets-to-have-returned-the-20-stats-druids-shouldnt-have-access-to-pets-actives
    https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/109878/trait-ancient-seeds-needs-to-be-deleted-from-the-game-asap-perma-immob-ranger
    Happy now?

    o......k........?

    first) i'm in none of these threads
    second) i didn't ask for a nerf, ever
    third) what is actually your point?

    i reply to a guy which, to me, was one of the most dumbest suggestions i have ever read (who is willing to spend 800 gemsworth of templates , and a full equipmen just to return to his squad?)

    it is you, soulbeast mains who band together and try to defend your class.
    that alone says enough

    no dude, you’re deflecting and refusing all the advice we are giving you. as someone who has played the pewpew full zerk sicem build multiple times, swapped back and forth, ik exactly how to counter it and deal with it. stunbreak, evade, block, teleport. you’re safe.

    if you already are using both templates and both of them are full zerk, excuse me but kitten are you doing??? i’m not telling you to buy new template, but if you’re not utilizing both templates and only play full zerk you really have no valid against 1shots as you’re 100% asking for it, because you can dish out just as much dmg as soulbeast, except in aoe rather than single target.

    it’s just crazy to me. sicem burst used to be WAYYYYY worse and WAYYY more OP. it used to deal 40% extra dmg instead of 25%, it used be 4s unblockable every 10s. now power coefficients and flat dmg is reduced, no more unblockable, worse coefficients, 25% dmg increase. if you wanna play full friggin zerk, EXPECT to get 1shot and pewpewd.

    this might sound strange to you, but there are game modes outside of wvw
    different gear, different traits you know the drill

    i could however visit the bank first before i head into wvw. bank tabs are less then 800 gems so it could save me some gold. drop all my gear there then i can pick nomad stats

    solid advice afterall

    you ask for advice but you don’t wanna listen. make fun of all our advice all you want, but you’re the only one here dying to noob stomper builds.

    obviously nomads is an exaggeration. get a set with around 2500 armor and sicem pewpew won’t harm you anymore. get the protection + stab cantrip utility and their dmg is basically gone. stop making all these excuses. again, make fun of my tips all you want, YOU’RE the one losing, dying and complaining on the forums, not me.

    i not once said that i die to it. i not once said that i died it
    just that your suggestion of spending 800 gems on templates (because not a single person has unused templates) is dumb.

    i'm not the one complaining, you are the one defending.
    not my thread, not my complaint yet on everything soulbeast related i find you.

    enjoy your new years eve, yes even you

  • If you're dying to pew you're simply, uber bad.
    Pew has so many counters... this post has to be a joke right?
    As a ranger main since beta weekends, I can remember pew ranger being OP only on the first no downed state event. Since then it's been meh, not even a meme.
    Ranger/Soulbeast actually have a few completely broken builds (not boonbeast) that are harder to play right, so many don't even bother to try it.
    If you want to nerf something so badly, start with boon and condi spam on many professions, which are the root cause of WvW being the sh.t fest that it is currently.

  • Sleepwalker.1398Sleepwalker.1398 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Well, it looks a non ranger main has tried the class and provided their opinion.
    I watch this guy's clips cos he provides good guides / tips on playing mesmer/chrono.

  • aspirine.6852aspirine.6852 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Sleepwalker.1398 said:
    Well, it looks a non ranger main has tried the class and provided their opinion.
    I watch this guy's clips cos he provides good guides / tips on playing mesmer/chrono.

    He sounds just salty that his mesmer gets owned by pewpew to be honest...?

  • @Sleepwalker.1398 said:
    Well, it looks a non ranger main has tried the class and provided their opinion.
    I watch this guy's clips cos he provides good guides / tips on playing mesmer/chrono.

    Ah yes, showcasing the infamous 4 traitlines + 4 utility skills soulbeast. It is indeed op, right next to those soulbeasts who can still pet swap in combat for both "lots of stealth and lots of mobility". Also funny how the vid always clips the moment an enemy actually starts looking at him instead of being busy fighting something else.

  • Psycoprophet.8107Psycoprophet.8107 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I dunno only thing on ranger as a hole that needs a major tune down is its immobilizing vines, not only should the significantly lower the vines hp but also the classes excess to them especially druid and its trait. Rest of the class doesn't really stand out from the rest of the roster, maybe slight adjustments here and there but definitely doesn't need giant nerfs.

  • I am a diehard Core Ranger. I solo roam 95% of the time -- joining in the odd keep take/defense when it presents itself. I haven't had a problem with Sic Em SBs since the nerfs while roaming, but occasionally 1-shotted from a tower while fighting someone else. Now I understand.

    I tried Sic Em Soulbeast again this morning. I one shotted anyone I got the drop on. And I was 3 shotted by anyone I didn't :sweat_smile:

    This is essentially what I thought of the build coming in, that it was garbage for roaming, but great for sniping. I'll now slot Sic Em SB as my zerg build and take out anyone straying from their zerg... pew pew PEW.

  • @RangerThings.9810 said:
    I am a diehard Core Ranger. I solo roam 95% of the time -- joining in the odd keep take/defense when it presents itself. I haven't had a problem with Sic Em SBs since the nerfs while roaming, but occasionally 1-shotted from a tower while fighting someone else. Now I understand.

    I tried Sic Em Soulbeast again this morning. I one shotted anyone I got the drop on. And I was 3 shotted by anyone I didn't :sweat_smile:

    This is essentially what I thought of the build coming in, that it was garbage for roaming, but great for sniping. I'll now slot Sic Em SB as my zerg build and take out anyone straying from their zerg... pew pew PEW.

    And there it is. Sic'em SlB snipes anything it gets the drop on. Screw up, and you might die just like everybody else. But given the range on LB and proper awareness you can get the drop on most people even while roaming.

  • Widmo.3186Widmo.3186 Member ✭✭✭✭

    We should just all switch to rangers, remove everything from keyboard except two keys.
    One for movement (W for example) and the other one for using Rapid Fire (by default its 2). Fancy 'pro gamers' can make macro so under key '2' you use like Sic'em, RaO, merge and then Rapid Fire.
    My favourite kind of gameplay, love it.

    Dont mind me, I just randomly spam 35 skill-buttons
    25.02.2020 edit - Nevermind, now I spam only 29 skill-buttons

  • @Widmo.3186 said:
    We should just all switch to rangers, remove everything from keyboard except two keys.
    One for movement (W for example) and the other one for using Rapid Fire (by default its 2). Fancy 'pro gamers' can make macro so under key '2' you use like Sic'em, RaO, merge and then Rapid Fire.
    My favourite kind of gameplay, love it.

    No armor either just trinkets and weapons.
    Instagib mode enabled.

  • Yasai.3549Yasai.3549 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 31, 2020

    @Justine.6351 said:
    They should rework all skills that piggyback damage onto other skills like one wolf pack, impossible odds and virtue of justice. They went on a warpath against raw damage but didn't address these for some reason.

    I personally never liked "hit on hit" skills.
    I liked IO back when it was Superspeed + Quickness + 10% increase damage.

    But for some reason they changed IO to second strike, and suddenly all the balance problems arose, for Shiro at least.

    Oh shoot, IO does so much damage together with Sword 4, but it's like, totally Sword 4's problem right?
    Nerf Sword 4 cast time.
    Oh shoot, IO does so much ranged damage with Hammer! Urgh..... REMOVE THE QUICKNESS!
    Nerf IO Quickness, Cost still the same.
    Oh shoot, IO does so much damage, even Autos can hit for max 5k per hit, but Rev is so mobile.... REMOVE SUPERSPEED, THAT WILL SOMEHOW ADDRESS THE DAMAGE PROBLEM IF WE CAN PREVENT REV FROM BEING IMMUNE TO SLOWS.

    If I play a stupid build, I deserve to die.
    If I beat people on a stupid build, I deserve to get away with it.

  • Cuks.8241Cuks.8241 Member ✭✭✭✭

    You shouldn't be eating full rapid fire. It's a 2.5 sec cast time, we are talking seconds here. You are dying a lot in any pvp game if your response time is measured in seconds.
    They are very potent when they jump you unaware, already in combat and without CDs but that is then not a 1v1 situation. That same ranger dies to anything if the situation is turned.

  • If Soulbeast is that OP and require low effort to play then just jump on a Soulbeast and quit whatever you are playing, there is more than 1 character slot for a reason, btw Soulbeast is a dueling class like Thief, dueling class is designed to kill other classes in 1vs1 but would fare terribly for supporting or zerg play, would you rather have a Tempest to provide auras for 10 men in a zerg or a selfish Soulbeast? there is no such thing as balance in this game, its all about unique roles each class can fit in, Thieves and Soulbeasts are supposed to be oppressive to pick off single targets, if you play a class called "ranger" and can't kill anything from range what is the point of the class existing at all? Soulbeasts opted in for damage are extremely easy to kill, they dont have much condi cleanse, their burst is easily predictable, can be negated with passive traits that give evade, block, immune to crit or physical damage when below 50% health or just stealth , teleport out of range, line of sight. I guess a balanced Soulbeast is a Soulbeast deals only 10% of my health with Rapid Fire and One Wolf Pack when I run full berserker gear and this game can only be truly balanced when I can just kill any dueling classes on a supporting class?

    Seagulls can fly, lions have big fangs and claws, nature is not balanced, seagulls should have fangs and bigger claws and as big as a lion and can kill lions, wolves, elephants, giraffes, rhinos, now that is what I call balance.🙃

    So sweet... So cold... if only the others could taste it...
    So...so good... The crunch of bones...makes it go away, only for a little while...

  • DeceiverX.8361DeceiverX.8361 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 31, 2020

    @Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

    @RangerThings.9810 said:
    I am a diehard Core Ranger. I solo roam 95% of the time -- joining in the odd keep take/defense when it presents itself. I haven't had a problem with Sic Em SBs since the nerfs while roaming, but occasionally 1-shotted from a tower while fighting someone else. Now I understand.

    I tried Sic Em Soulbeast again this morning. I one shotted anyone I got the drop on. And I was 3 shotted by anyone I didn't :sweat_smile:

    This is essentially what I thought of the build coming in, that it was garbage for roaming, but great for sniping. I'll now slot Sic Em SB as my zerg build and take out anyone straying from their zerg... pew pew PEW.

    And there it is. Sic'em SlB snipes anything it gets the drop on. Screw up, and you might die just like everybody else. But given the range on LB and proper awareness you can get the drop on most people even while roaming.

    So D/D signet thief of old, except with less risk, miles easier to play for efficacy, and way more viability across the board.

    Which is a build that also got gutted for dealing too much damage, and lost most of its modifiers despite having literally zero condition cleanses, no sustain, no protection, and no stunbreak or stability (yes, literally play perfectly or die), objectively lower mobility than GS on ranger, and depended entirely on landing a single hit (negated by aegis or weakness) and otherwise having no way to survive after just one attack on one target.

    It's not about damage but reliability of damage and how friendly the class is at not dying.

    As I mentioned in a different thread about SB, I have no issue with it having damage, but currently, RF+RoA does over 10k damage even when double-dodged. No skill in the game otherwise offers that much reliable damage, let along at range.

    You sure that Sniper idea is as good as you thought it was gonna be?
    Because I think my original idea is better.

  • DeceiverX.8361DeceiverX.8361 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Cuks.8241 said:
    You shouldn't be eating full rapid fire. It's a 2.5 sec cast time, we are talking seconds here. You are dying a lot in any pvp game if your response time is measured in seconds.
    They are very potent when they jump you unaware, already in combat and without CDs but that is then not a 1v1 situation. That same ranger dies to anything if the situation is turned.

    That's why people are dying lol.
    You only get 1.5s of dodges.

    RoA+RF at 2k/hit base and 3k RoA procs double dodged is 4 hits + 2 RoA procs.

    This is 14k damage even with perfect reaction time lol. It's actually easier to not die to when it gets QZ'ed and rangers who use it are outplaying themselves which seems to be a mentality I find here frequently...

    You sure that Sniper idea is as good as you thought it was gonna be?
    Because I think my original idea is better.

  • Shroud.2307Shroud.2307 Member ✭✭✭✭

    The amount of denial here is so unreal, lmao.

    It's not wanted in zergs
    Just dodge

    This is the tldr of what many have written in defense of their opinion. Very little reasonable thoughts on ways to change and improve the state of SlB has been made.

    Some of you really need to learn to look at things objectively when having these discussions instead of acting like balance requests are a personal attack.
    It's so weird how often the same names will defend Ranger as being a valuable addition to a zerg, but will defend imbalances with being unwanted.

    Nerfs don't mean there's no room for buffs. I think a lot of people are just afraid that even if SlB is still effective at what it does, changes that make it harder for them will be unfair.
    Something being difficult to use isn't unfair so long as it's rewarding in what it does.
    Or to explain it in another way-
    Heavily outplaying someone and putting in ten times the effort is difficult, not rewarding.
    Putting in the same amount of effort and making the proper decisions to outplay someone is both difficult and rewarding.

    Necro/Engi/Ranger/Rev | Maguuma | Diamond Legend
    [YWY] Weeping Valley | [xo] Fantasies
    My Youtube: Shroud
    "I'd rather lose playing something I enjoy than win playing something I don't."

  • vanflyheight.6832vanflyheight.6832 Member ✭✭
    edited January 1, 2021

    soulbeast doesnt need anymore nerfs period, they need least some buffs to give em a fighting chance. id say revert the 2 traits that got nerfed in the beastmastery traitline back to what they were or buff em up slightly so rangers can at least sustain better. oh and revert the second skin trait for pvp with the condi meta they need more sustain. Plus give em back their stunbreak on beastmode. least th ey can survive better. And quit hating on rangers, what bout burn guard which hasnt had a nerf like at all, what bout other classes that do need nerfs. mesmer doesnt need anymore nerfs and the nerf to resist on corruption trait line for rev should also be reverted for pvp. 1sec duration less its a pulse is like totally pathetic.

  • Lan Deathrider.5910Lan Deathrider.5910 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Swagger.1459 said:

    @Shroud.2307 said:
    The amount of denial here is so unreal, lmao.

    It's not wanted in zergs
    Just dodge

    This is the tldr of what many have written in defense of their opinion. Very little reasonable thoughts on ways to change and improve the state of SlB has been made.

    Some of you really need to learn to look at things objectively when having these discussions instead of acting like balance requests are a personal attack.
    It's so weird how often the same names will defend Ranger as being a valuable addition to a zerg, but will defend imbalances with being unwanted.

    Nerfs don't mean there's no room for buffs. I think a lot of people are just afraid that even if SlB is still effective at what it does, changes that make it harder for them will be unfair.
    Something being difficult to use isn't unfair so long as it's rewarding in what it does.
    Or to explain it in another way-
    Heavily outplaying someone and putting in ten times the effort is difficult, not rewarding.
    Putting in the same amount of effort and making the proper decisions to outplay someone is both difficult and rewarding.

    https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/120846/wvw-shadeless-build

    “This build is all about extreme aggression and oppressive damage, similar to Reaper. With various ways to CC, and a metric ton of Torment, this build will absolutely shred anything it touches, even those highly resistant to Conditions.”

    “I enjoy seeing 3, 4, or 5k Torment ticks on top of 2k Terrors, lol.”

    “Thief and Rev are the only things I struggle against with this build. Everything else is an easy win if I play right.”

    “Mostly though, I just enjoy watching people die in 0.5 seconds from my AOE vomit, lol. All it takes is one Fear or Torch 5 and they'll have so much on them they'll probably lose 50% of their health before they can even cleanse it.”

    https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/104151/thief-is-totally-broken-now

    @Shroud.2307 said:
    I made a Thief recently and have been having a lot of fun. I've been playing a core D/P build with CS/DA/Trickery, and a mixture of Marauder and Valkyrie + Eagle runes.

    I don't have a problem with these images so don't misinterpret this as a complaint, but those of you saying "thEiF dOEs NO daMaGE" are out of your minds. I don't have a single piece of zerk on my Thief so I have 19k health, and I don't use Assassin's Signet and look at these crits.


    >

    @Shroud.2307 said:

    @Jugglemonkey.8741 said:

    @saerni.2584 said:

    @Jugglemonkey.8741 said:

    @SpellOfIniquity.1780 said:
    I made a Thief recently and have been having a lot of fun. I've been playing a core D/P build with CS/DA/Trickery, and a mixture of Marauder and Valkyrie + Eagle runes.

    I don't have a problem with these images so don't misinterpret this as a complaint, but those of you saying "thEiF dOEs NO daMaGE" are out of your minds. I don't have a single piece of zerk on my Thief so I have 19k health, and I don't use Assassin's Signet and look at these crits.


    The backstabs I can see happening, but the shadow shot damage is surprising haha. Makes me wonder what the other guy was running xD

    Agreed...I don’t run any toughness so I sometimes take big hits and 15k is...rng perfect.

    I've dealt 8-9k shadow shots pretty happily before the feb patch, just trying to think how you would get 15k. I do hope that is an outlier, as that kind of damage plus the utility already in shadow shot would be insanely OP if it were in any way reliable.

    I can tell you exactly what happened because it was just today.

    We had a zerg attacking Aldon's in EBG. A few people were near the spawn side of green keep attacking players and soon retreated back to our zerg at Aldons. One player was left behind so I ran toward him to cover for him when I noticed a Scourge on the cliff edge next to the keep gate. I 5 -> 2 stealthed, stole to him and backstabbed. I don't recall if I had extra Might on me, but the target definitely didn't have Vulnerability, I wasn't using Assassin's Signet and I didn't have 25 Bloodlust.

    I've been playing Thief regularly for a few days now and it's not uncommon for me to be seeing 10 - 12k Heartseekers and 8 - 10k Shadow Shots. Mind you, that damage is drastically reduced on certain targets. Tanky Necros, Boonbeasts, condi Revs, etc. I'm hitting like... 3k Backstabs tops, lol.

    So melting players in 0.5 seconds with AoEs is ok. You don’t really have issues fighting Rangers, just Thief and Rev. You think hitting people with 15k Shadow Shots (which happened to be in the old screenshot) and 10-12k heartseekers is ok… But when a Ranger player complains about Necro, these are your thoughts and advice.

    “Longbow + GS is still perfectly viable, as is Boonbeast. It just isn't a complete faceroll "I win" build anymore and actually has some unfavorable match ups unlike pre-February. Like I'd said, the patch forced a lot of builds (this encompasses all classes and specs) to choose between survivability and damage. You might do less damage than before and have a few bad match ups with Boonbeast now, but it doesn't mean Necro is OP nor does it mean Boonbeast is bad. It just means you actually have to learn to play the game now...”

    “No point for anyone here to keep responding to the OP. They don't want to learn, they just want Necro nerfed. Let them cry instead of improving if that's what they want to do. Waste of time trying to help someone who doesn't want to be helped.”

    But yes, players aren’t being objective here and we need to nerf ranger.

    Swagger getting viscous digging into post histories lol.

  • Justine.6351Justine.6351 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

    @Swagger.1459 said:

    @Shroud.2307 said:
    The amount of denial here is so unreal, lmao.

    It's not wanted in zergs
    Just dodge

    This is the tldr of what many have written in defense of their opinion. Very little reasonable thoughts on ways to change and improve the state of SlB has been made.

    Some of you really need to learn to look at things objectively when having these discussions instead of acting like balance requests are a personal attack.
    It's so weird how often the same names will defend Ranger as being a valuable addition to a zerg, but will defend imbalances with being unwanted.

    Nerfs don't mean there's no room for buffs. I think a lot of people are just afraid that even if SlB is still effective at what it does, changes that make it harder for them will be unfair.
    Something being difficult to use isn't unfair so long as it's rewarding in what it does.
    Or to explain it in another way-
    Heavily outplaying someone and putting in ten times the effort is difficult, not rewarding.
    Putting in the same amount of effort and making the proper decisions to outplay someone is both difficult and rewarding.

    https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/120846/wvw-shadeless-build

    “This build is all about extreme aggression and oppressive damage, similar to Reaper. With various ways to CC, and a metric ton of Torment, this build will absolutely shred anything it touches, even those highly resistant to Conditions.”

    “I enjoy seeing 3, 4, or 5k Torment ticks on top of 2k Terrors, lol.”

    “Thief and Rev are the only things I struggle against with this build. Everything else is an easy win if I play right.”

    “Mostly though, I just enjoy watching people die in 0.5 seconds from my AOE vomit, lol. All it takes is one Fear or Torch 5 and they'll have so much on them they'll probably lose 50% of their health before they can even cleanse it.”

    https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/104151/thief-is-totally-broken-now

    @Shroud.2307 said:
    I made a Thief recently and have been having a lot of fun. I've been playing a core D/P build with CS/DA/Trickery, and a mixture of Marauder and Valkyrie + Eagle runes.

    I don't have a problem with these images so don't misinterpret this as a complaint, but those of you saying "thEiF dOEs NO daMaGE" are out of your minds. I don't have a single piece of zerk on my Thief so I have 19k health, and I don't use Assassin's Signet and look at these crits.


    >

    @Shroud.2307 said:

    @Jugglemonkey.8741 said:

    @saerni.2584 said:

    @Jugglemonkey.8741 said:

    @SpellOfIniquity.1780 said:
    I made a Thief recently and have been having a lot of fun. I've been playing a core D/P build with CS/DA/Trickery, and a mixture of Marauder and Valkyrie + Eagle runes.

    I don't have a problem with these images so don't misinterpret this as a complaint, but those of you saying "thEiF dOEs NO daMaGE" are out of your minds. I don't have a single piece of zerk on my Thief so I have 19k health, and I don't use Assassin's Signet and look at these crits.


    The backstabs I can see happening, but the shadow shot damage is surprising haha. Makes me wonder what the other guy was running xD

    Agreed...I don’t run any toughness so I sometimes take big hits and 15k is...rng perfect.

    I've dealt 8-9k shadow shots pretty happily before the feb patch, just trying to think how you would get 15k. I do hope that is an outlier, as that kind of damage plus the utility already in shadow shot would be insanely OP if it were in any way reliable.

    I can tell you exactly what happened because it was just today.

    We had a zerg attacking Aldon's in EBG. A few people were near the spawn side of green keep attacking players and soon retreated back to our zerg at Aldons. One player was left behind so I ran toward him to cover for him when I noticed a Scourge on the cliff edge next to the keep gate. I 5 -> 2 stealthed, stole to him and backstabbed. I don't recall if I had extra Might on me, but the target definitely didn't have Vulnerability, I wasn't using Assassin's Signet and I didn't have 25 Bloodlust.

    I've been playing Thief regularly for a few days now and it's not uncommon for me to be seeing 10 - 12k Heartseekers and 8 - 10k Shadow Shots. Mind you, that damage is drastically reduced on certain targets. Tanky Necros, Boonbeasts, condi Revs, etc. I'm hitting like... 3k Backstabs tops, lol.

    So melting players in 0.5 seconds with AoEs is ok. You don’t really have issues fighting Rangers, just Thief and Rev. You think hitting people with 15k Shadow Shots (which happened to be in the old screenshot) and 10-12k heartseekers is ok… But when a Ranger player complains about Necro, these are your thoughts and advice.

    “Longbow + GS is still perfectly viable, as is Boonbeast. It just isn't a complete faceroll "I win" build anymore and actually has some unfavorable match ups unlike pre-February. Like I'd said, the patch forced a lot of builds (this encompasses all classes and specs) to choose between survivability and damage. You might do less damage than before and have a few bad match ups with Boonbeast now, but it doesn't mean Necro is OP nor does it mean Boonbeast is bad. It just means you actually have to learn to play the game now...”

    “No point for anyone here to keep responding to the OP. They don't want to learn, they just want Necro nerfed. Let them cry instead of improving if that's what they want to do. Waste of time trying to help someone who doesn't want to be helped.”

    But yes, players aren’t being objective here and we need to nerf ranger.

    Swagger getting viscous digging into post histories lol.

    Be mindful what you say because it could come back to bite you in the kitten someday :p

    Please don't look in my post history :#

    Anet buff me :-(
    Make me good at game!

  • Shroud.2307Shroud.2307 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Swagger.1459 said:
    -snip-

    Thanks for that walk down memory lane. I've got nothing to add because you've made no arguments, you're just trying to put me in a bad light to appeal to your narrative.

    If you're going to dig through post history and get personal because you disagree with me, I'm not going to give you any attention other than what I'm saying here. This is like if someone were to say "no, I don't like Game of Thrones", and then you go through their Facebook status history to patch together what ever evidence you can find to prove otherwise. It's just yikes.

    Necro/Engi/Ranger/Rev | Maguuma | Diamond Legend
    [YWY] Weeping Valley | [xo] Fantasies
    My Youtube: Shroud
    "I'd rather lose playing something I enjoy than win playing something I don't."

  • ArchonWing.9480ArchonWing.9480 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 1, 2021

    Shrugs, if someone is trying that hard to win an internet argument, they could probably be like playing the game or something.

    I have died because I was posting on these forums a few times lol

    Anyhow, what kind of fallacy is it? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem#Circumstantial Maybe? I dunno. Think it's https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tu_quoque

    Person A makes claim X.
    
    Person B asserts that A's actions or past claims are inconsistent with the truth of claim X.
    Therefore, X is false.
    

    But fallacy or not, it's pretty creepy.

  • Lan Deathrider.5910Lan Deathrider.5910 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Justine.6351 said:

    @Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

    @Swagger.1459 said:

    @Shroud.2307 said:
    The amount of denial here is so unreal, lmao.

    It's not wanted in zergs
    Just dodge

    This is the tldr of what many have written in defense of their opinion. Very little reasonable thoughts on ways to change and improve the state of SlB has been made.

    Some of you really need to learn to look at things objectively when having these discussions instead of acting like balance requests are a personal attack.
    It's so weird how often the same names will defend Ranger as being a valuable addition to a zerg, but will defend imbalances with being unwanted.

    Nerfs don't mean there's no room for buffs. I think a lot of people are just afraid that even if SlB is still effective at what it does, changes that make it harder for them will be unfair.
    Something being difficult to use isn't unfair so long as it's rewarding in what it does.
    Or to explain it in another way-
    Heavily outplaying someone and putting in ten times the effort is difficult, not rewarding.
    Putting in the same amount of effort and making the proper decisions to outplay someone is both difficult and rewarding.

    https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/120846/wvw-shadeless-build

    “This build is all about extreme aggression and oppressive damage, similar to Reaper. With various ways to CC, and a metric ton of Torment, this build will absolutely shred anything it touches, even those highly resistant to Conditions.”

    “I enjoy seeing 3, 4, or 5k Torment ticks on top of 2k Terrors, lol.”

    “Thief and Rev are the only things I struggle against with this build. Everything else is an easy win if I play right.”

    “Mostly though, I just enjoy watching people die in 0.5 seconds from my AOE vomit, lol. All it takes is one Fear or Torch 5 and they'll have so much on them they'll probably lose 50% of their health before they can even cleanse it.”

    https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/104151/thief-is-totally-broken-now

    @Shroud.2307 said:
    I made a Thief recently and have been having a lot of fun. I've been playing a core D/P build with CS/DA/Trickery, and a mixture of Marauder and Valkyrie + Eagle runes.

    I don't have a problem with these images so don't misinterpret this as a complaint, but those of you saying "thEiF dOEs NO daMaGE" are out of your minds. I don't have a single piece of zerk on my Thief so I have 19k health, and I don't use Assassin's Signet and look at these crits.


    >

    @Shroud.2307 said:

    @Jugglemonkey.8741 said:

    @saerni.2584 said:

    @Jugglemonkey.8741 said:

    @SpellOfIniquity.1780 said:
    I made a Thief recently and have been having a lot of fun. I've been playing a core D/P build with CS/DA/Trickery, and a mixture of Marauder and Valkyrie + Eagle runes.

    I don't have a problem with these images so don't misinterpret this as a complaint, but those of you saying "thEiF dOEs NO daMaGE" are out of your minds. I don't have a single piece of zerk on my Thief so I have 19k health, and I don't use Assassin's Signet and look at these crits.


    The backstabs I can see happening, but the shadow shot damage is surprising haha. Makes me wonder what the other guy was running xD

    Agreed...I don’t run any toughness so I sometimes take big hits and 15k is...rng perfect.

    I've dealt 8-9k shadow shots pretty happily before the feb patch, just trying to think how you would get 15k. I do hope that is an outlier, as that kind of damage plus the utility already in shadow shot would be insanely OP if it were in any way reliable.

    I can tell you exactly what happened because it was just today.

    We had a zerg attacking Aldon's in EBG. A few people were near the spawn side of green keep attacking players and soon retreated back to our zerg at Aldons. One player was left behind so I ran toward him to cover for him when I noticed a Scourge on the cliff edge next to the keep gate. I 5 -> 2 stealthed, stole to him and backstabbed. I don't recall if I had extra Might on me, but the target definitely didn't have Vulnerability, I wasn't using Assassin's Signet and I didn't have 25 Bloodlust.

    I've been playing Thief regularly for a few days now and it's not uncommon for me to be seeing 10 - 12k Heartseekers and 8 - 10k Shadow Shots. Mind you, that damage is drastically reduced on certain targets. Tanky Necros, Boonbeasts, condi Revs, etc. I'm hitting like... 3k Backstabs tops, lol.

    So melting players in 0.5 seconds with AoEs is ok. You don’t really have issues fighting Rangers, just Thief and Rev. You think hitting people with 15k Shadow Shots (which happened to be in the old screenshot) and 10-12k heartseekers is ok… But when a Ranger player complains about Necro, these are your thoughts and advice.

    “Longbow + GS is still perfectly viable, as is Boonbeast. It just isn't a complete faceroll "I win" build anymore and actually has some unfavorable match ups unlike pre-February. Like I'd said, the patch forced a lot of builds (this encompasses all classes and specs) to choose between survivability and damage. You might do less damage than before and have a few bad match ups with Boonbeast now, but it doesn't mean Necro is OP nor does it mean Boonbeast is bad. It just means you actually have to learn to play the game now...”

    “No point for anyone here to keep responding to the OP. They don't want to learn, they just want Necro nerfed. Let them cry instead of improving if that's what they want to do. Waste of time trying to help someone who doesn't want to be helped.”

    But yes, players aren’t being objective here and we need to nerf ranger.

    Swagger getting viscous digging into post histories lol.

    Be mindful what you say because it could come back to bite you in the kitten someday :p

    Please don't look in my post history :#

    :lol: Hey I try to be consistent! Are there things on CORE ranger that need tweaking? Sure, but there are also things on Soulbeast that need tweaking in the other direction. Most of the problems with Soulbeast have to do with being counted as the pet along with the sheer number of numerical buffs that come along with that fact. That and OWP needs to not crit (fwiw it will still do a lot of damage on a glass build, just not memetastic levels of damage). I've put my two copper into the discussion on what I feel needs to be toned down based on my playing with it in WvW and ganking people in rather unfair ways from unfair distances from relative safety. Things like that should not exist are are rightfully called out as toxic.

  • Shroud.2307Shroud.2307 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @ArchonWing.9480 said:
    Shrugs, if someone is trying that hard to win an internet argument, they could probably be like playing the game or something.

    I have died because I was posting on these forums a few times lol

    Anyhow, what kind of fallacy is it? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem#Circumstantial Maybe? I dunno. Think it's https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tu_quoque

    Person A makes claim X.
    

    Person B asserts that A's actions or past claims are inconsistent with the truth of claim X.
    Therefore, X is false.

    But fallacy or not, it's pretty creepy.

    I'm not going to pretend I don't contradict myself at times, I don't keep track of everything I say, and my opinions change. But taking things out of context and comparing apples to oranges is hardly an argument, especially when it's framed like an attack.

    I'm flattered someone took the time to read through so much of my history though.

    Necro/Engi/Ranger/Rev | Maguuma | Diamond Legend
    [YWY] Weeping Valley | [xo] Fantasies
    My Youtube: Shroud
    "I'd rather lose playing something I enjoy than win playing something I don't."

  • God.2708God.2708 Member ✭✭✭

    So you bring up a bunch of comments about him speaking about things dealing lots of damage.

    His argument is that ranger deals lots of damage, very safely.

    Perhaps do some more post digging figure out how to handle that other 50% of his argument? He even lists cons about how easily his necro build dies to certain things.

    Also as an aside, TIL Shadowshot did not get its damage reduced in the feb balance pass. A 1.3 damage modifier on no CD blind+blink is honestly crazy given what most skills do.

  • ArchonWing.9480ArchonWing.9480 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 1, 2021

    @Shroud.2307 said:

    @ArchonWing.9480 said:
    Shrugs, if someone is trying that hard to win an internet argument, they could probably be like playing the game or something.

    I have died because I was posting on these forums a few times lol

    Anyhow, what kind of fallacy is it? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem#Circumstantial Maybe? I dunno. Think it's https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tu_quoque

    Person A makes claim X.
    

    Person B asserts that A's actions or past claims are inconsistent with the truth of claim X.
    Therefore, X is false.

    But fallacy or not, it's pretty creepy.

    I'm not going to pretend I don't contradict myself at times, I don't keep track of everything I say, and my opinions change. But taking things out of context and comparing apples to oranges is hardly an argument, especially when it's framed like an attack.

    I'm flattered someone took the time to read through so much of my history though.

    I mean, that's the point. Whether or not you contradict yourself in previous posts is irrelevant. People's opinions can change over time.

    I am curious on who keeps tabs on my post history. I know it's a common behavior on Reddit, but not sure in other parts.

  • DeceiverX.8361DeceiverX.8361 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @God.2708 said:

    So you bring up a bunch of comments about him speaking about things dealing lots of damage.

    His argument is that ranger deals lots of damage, very safely.

    Perhaps do some more post digging figure out how to handle that other 50% of his argument? He even lists cons about how easily his necro build dies to certain things.

    Also as an aside, TIL Shadowshot did not get its damage reduced in the feb balance pass. A 1.3 damage modifier on no CD blind+blink is honestly crazy given what most skills do.

    It's the only thing really carrying thief rn for its power builds.

    But yeah the skill has been busted for a long time (see: my complaints since 2013) and one of the major reasons why D/P is actually any good at all. I can confidently say if they swapped it with Death Blossom D/P would be considered substantially weaker in raw combat than D/D, even when factoring in its access to OOC and stacked stealth.

    You sure that Sniper idea is as good as you thought it was gonna be?
    Because I think my original idea is better.

  • Voltekka.2375Voltekka.2375 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Swagger.1459 said:

    @Shroud.2307 said:

    @ArchonWing.9480 said:
    Shrugs, if someone is trying that hard to win an internet argument, they could probably be like playing the game or something.

    I have died because I was posting on these forums a few times lol

    Anyhow, what kind of fallacy is it? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem#Circumstantial Maybe? I dunno. Think it's https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tu_quoque

    Person A makes claim X.
    

    Person B asserts that A's actions or past claims are inconsistent with the truth of claim X.
    Therefore, X is false.

    But fallacy or not, it's pretty creepy.

    I'm not going to pretend I don't contradict myself at times, I don't keep track of everything I say, and my opinions change. But taking things out of context and comparing apples to oranges is hardly an argument, especially when it's framed like an attack.

    I'm flattered someone took the time to read through so much of my history though.

    You can feel whatever you want, but we don't post on the forums for the players to decide what to code into the game. The devs read these forums and the information they are being given by players...

    So let's talk contradicting comments and suggestions that a dev might have to look at and consider for future balance changes...

    Posted on 12/24/2020 https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/120846/wvw-shadeless-build

    “This build is all about extreme aggression and oppressive damage, similar to Reaper. With various ways to CC, and a metric ton of Torment, this build will absolutely shred anything it touches, even those highly resistant to Conditions.”

    “is very fun to use. I enjoy seeing 3, 4, or 5k Torment ticks on top of 2k Terrors, lol.”

    “Thief and Rev are the only things I struggle against with this build. Everything else is an easy win if I play right.”

    “Mostly though, I just enjoy watching people die in 0.5 seconds from my AOE vomit, lol. All it takes is one Fear or Torch 5 and they'll have so much on them they'll probably lose 50% of their health before they can even cleanse it.”

    And 3 days later…

    @Shroud.2307 said:
    Dolyak Stance is one of the biggest offenders.

    33% damage reduction
    33% Condition damage reduction
    Immune to movement impairing Conditions
    6 stacks of Stability
    Stunbreak
    30 second recharge

    This is practically an elite skill. It makes you immune to all form of CC, on top of giving a Protection effect that cannot be removed that also effects Conditions.
    Removing the 33% damage/Condition damage reduction, and changing it so that it only reduces the duration of movement impairing Conditions, would make this skill a lot less overloaded, but still strong.

    Next, "Sic 'Em!" should apply Exhaustion to the Ranger for 3 seconds after use.

    And lastly, Smoke Scale's merged skill, Smoke Assault, needs one of two changes;
    Range reduced to 350, or give it a cast time.
    Right now it has double the range of Unrelenting Assault, no cast time, and can be enhanced with "Sic Em!" to deal nearly as much damage, on less than double the recharge.

    These are targeted changes because this is how balancing should be done. These things will effect Soulbeast and Soulbeast only. Not Druid or core. They are things that have been over performing and overlooked for a long time, and the spec will not die with these changes.

    You don’t have issues with ranger, as per your quote. Yet you have a bunch of “balancing” concerns for them… You brag that you can melt most professions in seconds with a couple button presses, and that’s just not limited to Necro… You dabbled in thief and… “ I made a Thief recently and have been having a lot of fun” and “I don't have a problem with these images so don't misinterpret this as a complaint”…So you “don’t have a problem” with 15K Shadow Shots, 8 - 10k Shadow Shots, 10 - 12k Heartseekers… and such, but let’s raise the red flags of “ balance” everywhere other than what you are using. Correct?

    What do you think a dev reading would say to themselves when they read the forums and a player asks for a bunch of nerfs on one profession, yet happens to see that the same enjoys, and doesn’t see a problem with, their preferred professions killing other players with a couple of button presses? You tell me?

    Think about a dev reading this…

    “Dolyak Stance is one of the biggest offenders.
    33% damage reduction
    33% Condition damage reduction
    Immune to movement impairing Conditions
    6 stacks of Stability
    Stunbreak
    30 second recharge
    This is practically an elite skill. It makes you immune to all form of CC, on top of giving a Protection effect that cannot be removed that also effects Conditions.
    Removing the 33% damage/Condition damage reduction”

    Meanwhile, 3 days earlier…

    “This build is all about extreme aggression and oppressive damage, similar to Reaper. With various ways to CC, and a metric ton of Torment, this build will absolutely shred anything it touches, even those highly resistant to Conditions.”

    “is very fun to use. I enjoy seeing 3, 4, or 5k Torment ticks on top of 2k Terrors, lol.”

    “Thief and Rev are the only things I struggle against with this build. Everything else is an easy win if I play right.”

    “Mostly though, I just enjoy watching people die in 0.5 seconds from my AOE vomit, lol. All it takes is one Fear or Torch 5 and they'll have so much on them they'll probably lose 50% of their health before they can even cleanse it.”

    So..

    You are pulling off.. “I enjoy seeing 3, 4, or 5k Torment ticks on top of 2k Terrors, lol.” and ““Mostly though, I just enjoy watching people die in 0.5 seconds from my AOE vomit, lol. All it takes is one Fear or Torch 5 and they'll have so much on them they'll probably lose 50% of their health before they can even cleanse it.”

    But somehow you want to…

    “Removing the 33% damage/Condition damage reduction” from Dolyak Stance even though you’d burn through it anyway because… “ this build will absolutely shred anything it touches, even those highly resistant to Conditions.” Correct?

    Next…

    You are pulling off... “I enjoy seeing 3, 4, or 5k Torment ticks on top of 2k Terrors, lol.” and “Mostly though, I just enjoy watching people die in 0.5 seconds from my AOE vomit, lol. All it takes is one Fear or Torch 5 and they'll have so much on them they'll probably lose 50% of their health before they can even cleanse it.”. You enjoy seeing 15k and 8-10k Shadow shots, and 10-12k heartseekers when “I don't have a single piece of zerk on my Thief so I have 19k health, and I don't use Assassin's Signet and look at these crits.”... and “I don't recall if I had extra Might on me, but the target definitely didn't have Vulnerability, I wasn't using Assassin's Signet and I didn't have 25 Bloodlust.”

    But somehow…

    You want the devs to impose “exhaustion” as a penalty for the temporary damage boost on another profession? “Next, "Sic 'Em!" should apply Exhaustion to the Ranger for 3 seconds after use.”

    Damage for me, but not for thee. Right?

    Btw, on a completely unrelated comment, that scourge build he mentions isnt really good. May work against clueless pvers, and thats it. Who runs without stunbreaks or cleanses, anyway?