Condition Renegade or Condition Herald?

Title... I'm doing story and stuff, wondering which to unlock first and which is better for full Viper's since i like condi play. I'm currently power oriented, wanna switch it up for an elite.

Hard to say which one is stronger; best part of condition Herald is how strong is at sustain while dealing really big AoE stacks of torment, but the stats which works the best for that build is trailblazer with torment runes (is also mainly a mele build). For viper stats I think that condi Renegade will work better: has less sustain but can fight both at range or mele. Anyway for Renegade I do prefer power stats. Builds:

Condi Herald (oftenly I use sword in the swap weapon with the shield, is PvE but works in WvW roaming changing a pair of traits):

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?PmxAke7lhQKsIyiJRXMICjBSiMBqgj+SdrD-zRJYkRLfZ0RBESK49BJI6tsonG-e

Viper Renegade (albeit I think it works better with at least half of the gear in trailblazer):

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?PmQAUlhQLMJSjFRZMIajBSjMBygj+1/TF-zRRYkRBYG+yojCIkEQ4Zh3PN-e

Power Renegade:

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?PmwAUxzltQHMNqhlROsN6hNSfMDKgJ11/rF-zRZYBJ1AY4wOC68MiVF0rUwjngA6t47rF-e

More about the topic:

https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/120588/which-other-legend-to-pair-with-mallyx-aside-from-kalla#latest

Anyway those are thinking about soloing champs and bounties at PvE; if you're just doing story mode you should just trample across the content in that game mode with any of those.

@"Buran.3796" said:Hard to say which one is stronger; best part of condition Herald is how strong is at sustain while dealing really big AoE stacks of torment, but the stats which works the best for that build is trailblazer with torment runes (is also mainly a mele build). For viper stats I think that condi Renegade will work better: has less sustain but can fight both at range or mele. Anyway for Renegade I do prefer power stats. Builds:

Condi Herald (oftenly I use sword in the swap weapon with the shield, is PvE but works in WvW roaming changing a pair of traits):

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?PmxAke7lhQKsIyiJRXMICjBSiMBqgj+SdrD-zRJYkRLfZ0RBESK49BJI6tsonG-e

Viper Renegade (albeit I think it works better with at least half of the gear in trailblazer):

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?PmQAUlhQLMJSjFRZMIajBSjMBygj+1/TF-zRRYkRBYG+yojCIkEQ4Zh3PN-e

Power Renegade:

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?PmwAUxzltQHMNqhlROsN6hNSfMDKgJ11/rF-zRZYBJ1AY4wOC68MiVF0rUwjngA6t47rF-e

More about the topic:

https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/120588/which-other-legend-to-pair-with-mallyx-aside-from-kalla#latest

Anyway those are thinking about soloing champs and bounties at PvE; if you're just doing story mode you should just trample across the content in that game mode with any of those.

Thank you! :smile:

Why trailblazer though? Do some traits have interaction with the Toughness stat? Or is it just for survivability? Cause i don't plan on doing WvW with any of it, this is just for Open World and story. I know you don't have to really gear up for any of it, but in addition to what's good, it's also a question about what's fun to play. :smile:

Like, i like the idea of big AOE torment Herald. But kiting with a shortbow sounds super fun as well while applying conditions.

Because i'm playing Revenant only with a friend when we do story stuff and whatever, this character is reserved for only that.Is there some sort of support/DPS variant of Revenant and its elites?So i can do boons to us while also doing damage?

I'd always choose Renegade over Herald for a condition build.Shortbow feels fun to me and the Life Siphon of the Soulcleave's Summit is strong, even without Healing Power on my equipment.

I'm playing full viper on my Condition Renegade.

@Fueki.4753 said:I'd always choose Renegade over Herald for a condition build.Shortbow feels fun to me and the Life Siphon of the Soulcleave's Summit is strong, even without Healing Power on my equipment.

I'm playing full viper on my Condition Renegade.

Nice! Thank you for your input!I'm also leaning towards Renegade, i like the idea of having a ranged weapon, Herald gets a shield and while it's probably good in its own right, it's not ranged. :tongue:

@Veprovina.4876 said:

Why trailblazer though? Do some traits have interaction with the Toughness stat? Or is it just for survivability? Cause i don't plan on doing WvW with any of it, this is just for Open World and story. I know you don't have to really gear up for any of it, but in addition to what's good, it's also a question about what's fun to play. :smile:

Short bow's damage in the auto attack is fairly balanced between power and condi, so if you go viper you take full advantage of increasing both sources of damage, but in the other skills favours condition damage, so if you plan to mix them a lot the difference in damage between full viper and full trailblazer is ~10%, so is not that large. Condi Renegades usually run 2,2,2 in the Renegade traitline to maximize bleeds and cleave thrugh arrow piercing, which means that you won't have the protection from All for One, and your HP and armor will be base, with Darkrazor's Daring summon as the main defiance bar breaker and Soulcleave's Summit and Devastation 3,3,3 (Battle Scars) as the main sustain tools (works best with burst as Sevenshots). Trailblazer provides a huge amount of survability boosting both armor and HP. Usually a full viper Renegade will aim for runes of the Nigthmare because the shortbow mixes bleeds, torment and burns as sources of damage.

Condi Herald and power Renegade do work entirely different: condi Herald uses torment runes to both increase damage and gain life, because mace and axe do mainly torment or burn damage and Embrace the Darkness adds more torment. The weapon and legend/trait selection is tankier (Shield, Infuse Light, Facet of Chaos... ), so the gameplan is usually facetank at mele range engulfing everything in torment. Power Renegade has perma protection under Kalla and even more damage mitigation with Jalis (plus stability: a rare avis in the realm of the Revenant) so, again, doesn't reach the same damage as a viper build, but still has a powerfull punch while having huge damage mitigation (and the same sustain/life drain abilities).

They play different. For team PvE content viper is optimal (assuming others provide support). For soloing champs an bounties the other two work better (a lot of bounties are soloable with them, and most should die easily if two players run those builds vs them).

@Fueki.4753 said:I'd always choose Renegade over Herald for a condition build.

for any damage-build renegade should be chosen over herald.

@Buran.3796 said:

@Veprovina.4876 said:

Why trailblazer though? Do some traits have interaction with the Toughness stat? Or is it just for survivability? Cause i don't plan on doing WvW with any of it, this is just for Open World and story. I know you don't have to really

gear up

for any of it, but in addition to what's good, it's also a question about what's fun to play. :smile:

Nice explanation! Thank you! :smile:

This build is mostly for Open world PvE, so something to plow through the story without too many difficulties (i know HoT can be hard sometime, especially with weak builds), and open world bosses, stuff, champions, PoF bounties etc. I don't even plan on going full ascended on it, i'll stick to exotic for now (have other projects that need doing first like light legge armor, can't waste money haha).

I like the idea of Viper's, but if Trailblazer's is just as good, i'll probably stick to that, i already run Trailblazer's on my Mirage, it's awesome!I doubt i'll have boons, as my friend plays Berserker, so again, either condi or power DPS build.Unless i provide support but idk, is that really needed in open world content?

@Virdo.1540 said:

@Fueki.4753 said:I'd always choose Renegade over Herald for a condition build.

Thank you! :)So far i'm thinking Renegade.Now to just choose either Viper's or Trailblazer's. :smile:I might choose Viper's though for that shortbow autoattack, to deal with trash mobs easier haha, just for a joke.Also, i mainly play tanky support builds, so maybe a glass cannon would be fun!

@Veprovina.4876 said:

@Buran.3796 said:

@Veprovina.4876 said:

Why trailblazer though? Do some traits have interaction with the Toughness stat? Or is it just for survivability? Cause i don't plan on doing WvW with any of it, this is just for Open World and story. I know you don't have to really

gear up

for any of it, but in addition to what's good, it's also a question about what's fun to play. :smile:

@Virdo.1540 said:

@Fueki.4753 said:I'd always choose Renegade over Herald for a condition build.

Viper’s will make you a better player. Choose vipers. Soulcleave is honestly strong enough sustain that you should have no issue with 99% of PvE content (even when solo) in viper gear on renegade if you know what you’re doing and play well. Take a mace and an axe in addition to the shortbow as they work best in tandem with each other.

And please please please don’t run Devastation for Battle Scars unless you really, really feel you need the sustain. While it does add survivability, you lose a bunch of damage and utility. Invocation is a better traitline that gives you more access to fury, might, +condi/power damage, the option to run Cleansing Channel, and ofc Charged Mists, which is one of the best traits for any Renegade since you can get an extra 25 energy every swap which directly increases your damage and potential sustain

@LucianTheAngelic.7054 said:

@Veprovina.4876 said:

@Buran.3796 said:

@Veprovina.4876 said:

Why trailblazer though? Do some traits have interaction with the Toughness stat? Or is it just for survivability? Cause i don't plan on doing WvW with any of it, this is just for Open World and story. I know you don't have to really

gear up

for any of it, but in addition to what's good, it's also a question about what's fun to play. :smile:

@Virdo.1540 said:

@"Fueki.4753" said:I'd always choose Renegade over Herald for a condition build.

Already switched to viper's. :smile: Have a bunch of Warlord armor boxes from WvW saved up, bought some viper's recipes from WvW vendors and TP and made myself a mace and an axe. I think i also have huntsman high enough on another character, i'll make a bow when i need it, for now i have a random berserker's hammer for range, until i get enough hero points for renegade.

And i know i can buy HP's from WvW, and i have enough currency for it, but i want the leveling experience for it, so i wanna get HPs naturally. We're not even to HoT yet, it'll pick up speed when we go there, HPs there give more points.

This is what i'm thinking for when i get renegade:http://gw2skills.net/editor/?PmwAkeJlxQIMPKi1RSMOCiRSgMCSgjuk36H-zRRYBREYGN8jg1B-e

In the meantime, Corruption and Devastation traitlines are the same, but i run Invocation(2,3,1) as a third one.

Also, until i get some tokes for Nightmare runes, i'm using Lich runes.

@Veprovina.4876 said:

@LucianTheAngelic.7054 said:

Why trailblazer though? Do some traits have interaction with the Toughness stat? Or is it just for survivability? Cause i don't plan on doing WvW with any of it, this is just for Open World and story. I know you don't have to really

gear up

for any of it, but in addition to what's good, it's also a question about what's fun to play. :smile:

@Virdo.1540 said:

@"Fueki.4753" said:I'd always choose Renegade over Herald for a condition build.

My only advice would be to try to learn how to use Charged Mists in Invocation instead of Song of the Mists. For PvE, it really is the superior trait for non-Herald builds and will make you a much better revenant if you learn how to use it well

I know I can be a bit of a snowflake at times, but my fav build to run in open world PvE across all classes is on core: Shiro/Mallyx with Viper's/Grieving stats and Ret 1/3/3, Invo 1/3/2, Corr 1/1/1 with mace/axe and staff.

I really like being able to run Ret for sustain along with the increased energy flow from Ancient Echo and the mobility from Shiro. Tormenting Runes, Steadfast Rejuvenation, and nearly perma weakness all equate to really great sustain. If you do your rotation correctly you can have Ancient Echo up on every Mallyx swap. You miss out on some damage and might uptime, but I suppose it depends on what your priorities are in a build and how much that matters to you. For me, the build hits that perfect mix of high effectiveness and being a total blast to play.

@LucianTheAngelic.7054 said:

@Veprovina.4876 said:

@LucianTheAngelic.7054 said:

Why trailblazer though? Do some traits have interaction with the Toughness stat? Or is it just for survivability? Cause i don't plan on doing WvW with any of it, this is just for Open World and story. I know you don't have to really

gear up

for any of it, but in addition to what's good, it's also a question about what's fun to play. :smile:

@Virdo.1540 said:

@"Fueki.4753" said:I'd always choose Renegade over Herald for a condition build.

Ah yes, the last one in invocation. Yeah, i'll switch to that, more energy for legend switching, makes sense.Also i just noticed i didn't post a renegade build but a revenant build lol, but whatever, you get what i meant. :wink:

@"Za Shaloc.3908" said:I know I can be a bit of a snowflake at times, but my fav build to run in open world PvE across all classes is on core: Shiro/Mallyx with Viper's/Grieving stats and Ret 1/3/3, Invo 1/3/2, Corr 1/1/1 with mace/axe and staff.

I really like being able to run Ret for sustain along with the increased energy flow from Ancient Echo and the mobility from Shiro. Tormenting Runes, Steadfast Rejuvenation, and nearly perma weakness all equate to really great sustain. If you do your rotation correctly you can have Ancient Echo up on every Mallyx swap. You miss out on some damage and might uptime, but I suppose it depends on what your priorities are in a build and how much that matters to you. For me, the build hits that perfect mix of high effectiveness and being a total blast to play.

Well for starters i'll do something "more known" or whatever to get used to the profession. :tongue:Then after i study all the traits and know how revenant works in tougher situations, then i can do my own builds.

Renegade is the most forward with all of it's options while with Herald there's arguably a lot of cool things to pull off, but is still relatively inferior most of the time.

To me personally, being able to gather up to 50+ of the same conditions in a group fight and transfer them back for a massive burst is a lot more fun but it's also very situational.

We don't talk about core even though it can be just as fun given the right tools.

I have created a viper renegade and a trailblazer herald with tormenting rune. Sincerely the first option is funnier and faster killing.

@Shao.7236 said:Renegade is the most forward with all of it's options while with Herald there's arguably a lot of cool things to pull off, but is still relatively inferior most of the time.

To me personally, being able to gather up to 50+ of the same conditions in a group fight and transfer them back for a massive burst is a lot more fun but it's also very situational.

We don't talk about core even though it can be just as fun given the right tools.

Yeah, a party of 2 isn't really a group so i don't think i could pull of such a combo. So Herald will be the second one i unlock.

@frareanselm.1925 said:I have created a viper renegade and a trailblazer herald with tormenting rune. Sincerely the first option is funnier and faster killing.

Nice! Then i made the right choice!

herald, way tankier and way more damage and pull enemies togethereasier to solo group content with herald

@felix.2386 said:herald, way tankier and way more damage and pull enemies togethereasier to solo group content with herald

Condi Renegade has the same access to Call to Anguish and Temporal Rift, though. With a really sweet Sevenshot follow-up.

@felix.2386 said:herald, way tankier and way more damage and pull enemies togethereasier to solo group content with herald

There is nothing in herald that would give it more damage than a renegade other than f2 transfer which is situational especially in pve like what op is doing. Ren has more damage, herald has some interesting mostly defensive utility.

@ArthurDent.9538 said:

There is nothing in herald that would give it more damage than a renegade

Remaining alive. That's why I think power Renegade> condi Renegade for PvE. Is closer to the sustain condi Herald has.

@felix.2386 said:herald, way tankier and way more damage and pull enemies togethereasier to solo group content with herald

I soloed champions more easy with viper renegade than with trailblazer herald because often people forget that the more DPS the shorter the fight is, and you have less oportunities to die than in long fighrs.

I'm also leaning more towards the "kill things now instead of later" builds like berserker's and viper's. Trailblazer is cool though since condi doesn't really need 3 stats to be effective. Viper's is still better damage wise but only slightly compared to something like Soldier's vs Berserker's... If you only have power as a stat, it's not enough on power builds. And that's true across all professions. It's just how the game is made.

So whenever i'm trying new builds, i kinda default to the berserker's/viper's meta and go from there. And from this thread, people seem to agree it's the best way.

@frareanselm.1925 said:... often people forget that the more DPS the shorter the fight is ...sounds good in theory, but the more hard is champ, the more sustain build should be or the fight will be really very short ))

@taara.3217 said:

@frareanselm.1925 said:... often people forget that the more DPS the shorter the fight is ...sounds good in theory, but the more hard is champ, the more sustain build should be or the fight will be really very short ))

condition renegade doesn't have to go 2/2/2. can go 2/3/2 and get protection on demand.

it's also why i stick with power renegade for open world using a mix of diviner and berserker. they still haven't fixed that one bug where you do no damage while dead.

I'm quite new to revenant myself - but i did look at the builds and i just don't see how herald is ever competitive with renegade. It just gives some randoms boons which any impactful of which you can already full uptime with a renegade for yourself, and lacks real damage abilties - lacks synergy with battle scars for healing, cant alacrity your group. It seems more like a stylistic choice for solo play. Shortbow is very good also for both power and condition as swap for when you need to be in ranged or to tag mobs. I use diviner gear for boon duration.

At this point in time, i'm still hard pressed to find a competitive build using herald over renegade - i just don't see those random boons as anything special for solo, and you lose out on really strong renegade abilities. Maybe you can find a good use for them with your mate.