Should shatters be removed/changed/replaced in the next elite spec? — Guild Wars 2 Forums
Home Professions Mesmer

Should shatters be removed/changed/replaced in the next elite spec?

Tseison.4659Tseison.4659 Member ✭✭✭
edited March 30, 2021 in Mesmer

So the only thing I can think of to balance is to push shatter traits into the shatters themselves, which will free up a lot of traits to be filled with something else. Which I think would be great because it’ll give the class a chance to get unique and better traits that can be focused on the Mesmer itself or their utility skills and less on the shatter mechanic.

I’m only saying this because this is the 3rd expansion, and the shatters are no longer original, they’re distasteful, and every other class got something new while Mesmers didn’t. (Don’t bother mentioning Mirage Cloak because as nice as it is in PvE, we have to deal with one dodge forever).

  • 14 traits for shatters, only 3 of them increase shatter damage and the rest are just “other,” aka not even close to being viable.

  • 5 traits that involve our illusions and yet only 3 of them are towards increasing their damage.

  • 5 traits that all summon a clone and they’re all useless except for deceptive evasion.

And yet some ‘Mesmers’ don’t see the problem that is a profession pigeon holed into this mechanic that barely delivers. EoD needs to revamp shatters and clones completely and give us more personal damage/defence and less reliance on whatever illusions/clones/shatters are failing to be... “damage.”

Mesmers have gotten more nerfs and “adjustments” than other professions, so yeah, if balancing is going to be an “issue” for them in terms of the shatters, well, that’s their problem for tying shatters so heavily to a class and two E-Specs when they could’ve just had them in one.

Below is a list of shatter traits that would need to be merged into all shatters (including Chrono & Mirage):

Rending Shatter (Domination) — Shatter skills inflict vulnerability on hit.
Shattered Concentration (Domination) — Shatter skills also remove a boon on hit.
Maim the Disillusioned (Illusions) — Shatter skills inflict torment on hit.
Master of Misdirection (Illusions) — Shatter skills gain recharge reduction.
Master of Fragmentation (Illusions) — Your Shatter skills are improved.

Traits that affect shatters and would need to be merged in all shatters but only when in the selected E-Spec:

Time Catches Up (Chronomancer) — Activating a Shatter gives your illusions superspeed. Shatters deal increased damage to movement-impaired foes.
Flow of Time (Chronomancer) — Gain alacrity for each clone you shatter.
Reversion Illusionary Reversion (Chronomancer) — Shatter skills generate a clone if you have enough clones present. This trait needs to be removed and changed into something else as we already have a lot of clone generation skills.
Seize the Moment (Chronomancer) — Gain quickness for each clone you shatter. Nearby allies also gain quickness.
Riddle of Sand (Mirage) — When entering combat, your first Ambush attack applies confusion. This ability refreshes when you use a Shatter skill.
Nomad's Endurance (Mirage) — Shatter skills give vigor, and vigor grants condition damage.

Traits that affect shatters and can remain unchanged or be traited into if the player's playstyle revolves around shattering are as followed:

Mental Anguish (Domination) — Shatter skills deal more damage. This bonus damage is doubled against foes that are not activating skills.
Bountiful Disillusionment (Chaos) — Gain stability when you use a Shatter skill. Gain an additional boon based on which Shatter is used.
Restorative Illusions (Inspiration) — Heal yourself and lose conditions when you use a Shatter skill. (Note: If Mesmers get a healing spec in EoD, this trait can be merged into the new F1-F4)
Master of Misdirection (Illusions) — Shatter skills gain recharge reduction.

Should shatters be removed/changed/replaced in the next elite spec? 63 votes

Yes (Why?)
41%
Alpha.1308Sodeni.6041st elmos fire.2987Zaraki.5784Roda.7468Weerus.3701Daishi.6027Shaogin.2679Opopanax.1803Kovu.7560InsaneQR.7412Tseison.4659Keitaro Dragonheart.9047otto.5684viquing.8254NashEquilSeek.2801SloRules.3560thundermarch.5643babak.3654HotDelirium.7984 26 votes
No (Why?)
58%
TheOneWhoSighs.7513Ayrilana.1396Aquamarine.3698Axl.8924flog.3485Anna.7845Jtoon.6907Veprovina.4876Jables.4659Hesione.9412hanabal lecter.2495Salt Mode.3780Fueki.4753kybraga.7103necromaniac.7629TheAgedGnome.7520Purr Kitten.8731kiri.1467Hypnowulf.7403Antycypator.9874 37 votes
<1

Comments

  • Veprovina.4876Veprovina.4876 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 28, 2020
    No (Why?)

    You need a third option.

    I'm not against removing them for the elite, but all of our weapons have some form of clone or phantasm generation and so do our traits and utilities. It would probably be hard to balance those to work with the new mechanic.

    So, idk, "no" for me, but "yes" it would maybe be cool.

    I'd rather have the third elite be able to retain phantasms, like they were before, and keep our shatters for clones (as they don't affect phantasms).
    Or replace shatters with phantasm buffs so clone generation skills generate "energy" or something and F1-F4 empower phantasms in some way based on how many energy was spent.

    But again, i wouldn't want that if it means further imbalance to the mesmer and further future nerfs that might eventually happen because of this. Because then anet nerfs one thing that affects all others that never needed nerfs in the first place due to how closely everything on mesmer is tied to the shatters and illusion generation.

  • Yes (Why?)

    I used to think shatter isn't so fun to play in pve (produce clone then shatter/repete ) and is a Brain dead build in pvp

    Mantra used to be more interessant (when we have 3 charge long rime ago ) AND fantasm USED TO BE MORE FUN WHEN WE COULD KEEP THEM

  • Curunen.8729Curunen.8729 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 29, 2020

    I think the specific buttons F1-F4 need to exist in some form because of various Core traits that modify them (blinding dissipation, shattered concentration, bountiful disillusionment, restorative illusions, master of fragmentation... etc...). It's difficult to think of anything different that would function properly with core trait lines.

    But sure, they don't have to be "shatters", and we don't have to have clones/phantasms separate from the player - which I'm hoping the next elite spec is at least a cloneless spec of some kind.

    My ears, how are you! | Hammer Mesmer - elite spec concept.

  • draxynnic.3719draxynnic.3719 Member ✭✭✭✭

    'Should' is a nebulous term. I think there is room for a mesmer build that does something else with the F1-F4 keys than shatters, though. For instance, they could involve giving some order to your illusions that doesn't destroy them (including setting them all on a new target).

    Giving back persistent phantasms through an elite spec would be worthwhile, I think. I understand why they changed it, but it's a playstyle people enjoyed, and reworking the F1-F4 skills to allow for more active control over phantasms could keep it as a reasonably active build rather than a passive one.

  • Jables.4659Jables.4659 Member ✭✭✭
    edited December 29, 2020
    No (Why?)

    No. To me, removing shatters would remove the identity of Guild Wars 2 Mesmer. That being said, I am 100% on board with phantasms being replaced by attacks executed by the actual Mesmer. If done well, this could solve some issues.

    1.) Insta-gib Power bursts would be less lethal as you would no longer be able to precast Phantasmal Berserker and have them land with the rest of your combo. I'm curious to see how the power burst would adapt to this type of change. Perhaps you would throw mirror blade from range and blink in to use GS-4 right as mirror blade hits.

    2.) Power Mesmer would gain some much needed mobility via Greatsword and Offhand Sword phantasms.

    3.) The inherent issues of relying on AI to deal damage would be drastically reduced for Mesmer. This has become more of a problem since Anet reworked phantasms into one and done attacks (admittedly a necessary change due to Chronomancer). Far too often the phantasm is summoned and either whiffs its ability or its target dies and the phantasm does not attack at all.

    4.) It could fix another issue resulting from the previous phantasm rework in that we no longer gain instant access to shatter ammo upon using a phantasm skill. The reworked abilities could summon a clone upon use.

  • Would be fine with anything that shakes up the current clone/shatter interaction (so something that’s not clones casually walking to target and exploding); phantasms are fine as they are (mechanically, balance is another issue) since they kinda on the level of symbol skills on guard (but they can change if needed, idc).

    Mesmer is perhaps the only profession whose profession mechanic has not really changed after 2 especs (chrono shatters outside f4 are basically reskins). F1/2/3 are all the same and the method to use them is literally the same. The only different thing is csplit on chrono and you can’t even use it very often. Meanwhile other professions get flashy new skills/transformations/entire skill bars as their new profession mechanic, makes you wonder if they just ran out of creative juices when it came to mesmer...

  • Sodeni.6041Sodeni.6041 Member ✭✭✭
    edited December 29, 2020
    Yes (Why?)

    Yes, it's time!

    Give me instruments (guitar, harp, flute, drums) with my f1-f4 abilities that work like firebrand's tomes, that give me new skills. The amount of skills you get to use with each instrument is determined by the amount of illusions you destroy when channeling the instruments.

  • Tseison.4659Tseison.4659 Member ✭✭✭
    Yes (Why?)

    @Jables.4659 said:
    No. To me, removing shatters would remove the identity of Guild Wars 2 Mesmer. That being said, I am 100% on board with phantasms being replaced by attacks executed by the actual Mesmer. If done well, this could solve some issues.

    1.) Insta-gib Power bursts would be less lethal as you would no longer be able to precast Phantasmal Berserker and have them land with the rest of your combo. I'm curious to see how the power burst would adapt to this type of change. Perhaps you would throw mirror blade from range and blink in to use GS-4 right as mirror blade hits.

    2.) Power Mesmer would gain some much needed mobility via Greatsword and Offhand Sword phantasms.

    3.) The inherent issues of relying on AI to deal damage would be drastically reduced for Mesmer. This has become more of a problem since Anet reworked phantasms into one and done attacks (admittedly a necessary change due to Chronomancer). Far too often the phantasm is summoned and either whiffs its ability or its target dies and the phantasm does not attack at all.

    4.) It could fix another issue resulting from the previous phantasm rework in that we no longer gain instant access to shatter ammo upon using a phantasm skill. The reworked abilities could summon a clone upon use.

    Well to be fair, no one asked for them to remove Hexes/Interrupts which I felt were Mesmers real identity in the original game and it’s not like they couldn’t add hexes in GW2 since it’s essentially a reverse-barrier.

    But anyways, I still would rather your idea for the next E-Spec so we aren’t reliant on clones and shattering. I don’t necessarily have an issue with phantasms as you just cast them and they deal a lot of damage. I just want their cast time reduced.

    Also for the next E-spec, if they give the Mesmers an illusionary form, it can almost work the same as death shroud or holosmith giving access to phantasmal melee/range attacks dealing good damage and inflicting confusion & torment.

  • Dadnir.5038Dadnir.5038 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Unfortunately, there are to many core traits revolving around shatters (and having different effects for each shatter) for ANet to be able to safely remove them. Those traits make the mesmer's main mechanism rigid to the point that the idea, while attractive, seem unreasonable.

  • Jables.4659Jables.4659 Member ✭✭✭
    No (Why?)

    @Tseison.4659 said:

    Well to be fair, no one asked for them to remove Hexes/Interrupts which I felt were Mesmers real identity in the original game and it’s not like they couldn’t add hexes in GW2

    That was something that did bug me early on in GW2. Mesmer in this game plays as a completely different class with a similar theme. Still, I have grown extremely attached to GW2 Mesmer over the course of 8 years, which is why I specified that it would remove the identity of Guild Wars 2 Mesmer specifically. If they did go that route I'm sure I could still find enjoyment out of the spec, but I would much prefer they rework phantasms than clone/shatter mechanics.

  • lare.5129lare.5129 Member ✭✭✭✭

    as for me we can remove shatters from all mesmer specs, and give nerfed shatters only fro EoD spec.. this is way.

    want solid balance ? - play chess.

  • Leonidrex.5649Leonidrex.5649 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Dadnir.5038 said:
    Unfortunately, there are to many core traits revolving around shatters (and having different effects for each shatter) for ANet to be able to safely remove them. Those traits make the mesmer's main mechanism rigid to the point that the idea, while attractive, seem unreasonable.

    they could very well have those traits do different things for the e-spec.
    similar how GM trait gives reflect to disort but extends Csplit.
    And they dont even have to be all that different, IF the new espec is similar to how FB works then you can have things like ( when you whip out F2 instrument, blind nearby foes. or F2 instrument skill X blinds foes in its area of effect )
    Master of fragmentation? F1 instrument skills have increased critical chance, to make it balanced maybe +10% instead.
    Or even if they care they can simply replace the traits compleatly when you take e-spec, all it would take is designing couple new traits.
    But as always it just takes effort.

  • No (Why?)

    I have very little to offer beyond what has been stated by others prior to now: It would erode the identity of one of the most unique RPG classes I've ever played, alongside that there are so many other mechanics tied into it you'd pretty much have to create a new class. It'd be like removing the teleport-dash-punch from Vanguard in Mass Effect 3.

    On top of that? I actually really enjoy the rhythm of shattering clones and then recreating them—It's one of the most thrilling things about the profession for me. I suppose I'd not be able to put my finger on exactly why, but it has much to do with the aforementioned novelty of it. I haven't played anything else that's really like that, why dismiss that which has worth?

  • Veprovina.4876Veprovina.4876 Member ✭✭✭✭
    No (Why?)

    @Hypnowulf.7403 said:
    I have very little to offer beyond what has been stated by others prior to now: It would erode the identity of one of the most unique RPG classes I've ever played, alongside that there are so many other mechanics tied into it you'd pretty much have to create a new class. It'd be like removing the teleport-dash-punch from Vanguard in Mass Effect 3.

    On top of that? I actually really enjoy the rhythm of shattering clones and then recreating them—It's one of the most thrilling things about the profession for me. I suppose I'd not be able to put my finger on exactly why, but it has much to do with the aforementioned novelty of it. I haven't played anything else that's really like that, why dismiss that which has worth?

    Well, mesmer for a long time was, "spawn 3 phantasms and do DPS while casually strolling around" kind of thing. There were shatter builds, but none generated clones as effective as they do now since anet reworked phantasms.

    And that is one change i actually agree with, it's way more fun shattering clones, pumping new ones out, especially on Mirage in WvW, and with clone switching capabilities, you were very much the master of illusions and felt like one. That is, until they removed a dodge and now it's just sad how bad Mirage is. Still, it's fun in PvE as well, but you're not really "decieving" anyone in PvE, those are just AIs with preprogrammed behaviour and zero interaction with your clones.

    Still, i'd be ok with returning the permanent phantasm style if they gave a new facelift in the elite. Shatters could be "buffs" for phanasms instead of spawning clones, and maybe clone generating skills on weapons would work as some sort of mechanics for phantasm like, special attacks or something so that the gameplay would be more involved than just summon and forget.

    But at the end of the day, that would mean reworking ALL weapons for that 1 elite specialization and it's unlikely to happen, not to mention, other traitlines would need to work for phantasms as well in some capacity.

    So yeah, no for me because i like the shatterer playstyle and because it would probably be too much broken with it, and not in a good way.

  • draxynnic.3719draxynnic.3719 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @Dadnir.5038 said:
    Unfortunately, there are to many core traits revolving around shatters (and having different effects for each shatter) for ANet to be able to safely remove them. Those traits make the mesmer's main mechanism rigid to the point that the idea, while attractive, seem unreasonable.

    they could very well have those traits do different things for the e-spec.
    similar how GM trait gives reflect to disort but extends Csplit.
    And they dont even have to be all that different, IF the new espec is similar to how FB works then you can have things like ( when you whip out F2 instrument, blind nearby foes. or F2 instrument skill X blinds foes in its area of effect )
    Master of fragmentation? F1 instrument skills have increased critical chance, to make it balanced maybe +10% instead.
    Or even if they care they can simply replace the traits compleatly when you take e-spec, all it would take is designing couple new traits.
    But as always it just takes effort.

    This. As long as whatever replaces the shatters are skills with broadly the same purpose (F1 deals power damage, F2 inflicts conditions, F3 is CC, and F4 is defensive), there's no reason why the existing shatter traits couldn't work with them. Particularly since with the traits that affect F4, ArenaNet has already shown that they're willing to change the effect of the trait based on whether you're running Chronomancer or not, so something similar could also apply to any hypothetical non-shattering elite spec.

  • Axl.8924Axl.8924 Member ✭✭✭✭
    No (Why?)

    They should just make the clones last longer and buff the hp so clones are better and just use the destruction of clones as some sorta way to make the clones stronger somehow 1 and cc or something like that. Might as well find some way to make clones excell somehow if they are so weak that they get insta destroyed.

    Here is my list of characters i got so far:

    Elementalist 80 with tempest:Talman nul
    Necromancer 80 with reaper:Zex vokar
    Mesmer level 80 no chrono yet:Klanga voosh.
    Level 80 Ranger with druid spec Jedkhan.

  • Yoci.2481Yoci.2481 Member ✭✭✭

    What we will get: A single clone that works sort of like a Soulbeast pet. Phantasm skills will switch the type of the pet.

  • Tseison.4659Tseison.4659 Member ✭✭✭
    Yes (Why?)

    @Yoci.2481 said:
    What we will get: A single clone that works sort of like a Soulbeast pet. Phantasm skills will switch the type of the pet.

    I like this idea but will tweak it by having it so we get an "Illusionary Form" F1-F4" which gives us access to different skills depending on the form we're in. Clone/Phantasmal won't spawn anything and will just increase the duration of the form by 1 second. So essentially the illusionary form takes inspiration from Death Shroud and the "Break Illusion to Defeat" that the White Mantle Mesmers have. OR This could also be made into an Elite with a high cooldown which would be the same as Warriors Rampage form but taking damage will break the form faster and not affect your actual health bar until it's gone.

  • otto.5684otto.5684 Member ✭✭✭✭
    Yes (Why?)

    Not fully removed. I do expect the next elite to be ranged and power (probably SB). If that is the case, shatters will need to be reworked for something that works well from range. Will see.

  • Veprovina.4876Veprovina.4876 Member ✭✭✭✭
    No (Why?)

    @Axl.8924 said:
    They should just make the clones last longer and buff the hp so clones are better and just use the destruction of clones as some sorta way to make the clones stronger somehow 1 and cc or something like that. Might as well find some way to make clones excell somehow if they are so weak that they get insta destroyed.

    Yeah but this should be done for core mesmer, not just the elite.

  • Sodeni.6041Sodeni.6041 Member ✭✭✭
    Yes (Why?)

    @Hypnowulf.7403 said:
    I have very little to offer beyond what has been stated by others prior to now: It would erode the identity of one of the most unique RPG classes I've ever played, alongside that there are so many other mechanics tied into it you'd pretty much have to create a new class. It'd be like removing the teleport-dash-punch from Vanguard in Mass Effect 3.

    On top of that? I actually really enjoy the rhythm of shattering clones and then recreating them—It's one of the most thrilling things about the profession for me. I suppose I'd not be able to put my finger on exactly why, but it has much to do with the aforementioned novelty of it. I haven't played anything else that's really like that, why dismiss that which has worth?

    They removed the classic shroud of necromancers with Scourge and gave them shades as a mechanic and it worked out just fine. I wish they would do something similar to the mesmer to give them more diversity and uniqueness than just having shatters all the time!

  • Axl.8924Axl.8924 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 31, 2020
    No (Why?)

    @Sodeni.6041 said:

    @Hypnowulf.7403 said:
    I have very little to offer beyond what has been stated by others prior to now: It would erode the identity of one of the most unique RPG classes I've ever played, alongside that there are so many other mechanics tied into it you'd pretty much have to create a new class. It'd be like removing the teleport-dash-punch from Vanguard in Mass Effect 3.

    On top of that? I actually really enjoy the rhythm of shattering clones and then recreating them—It's one of the most thrilling things about the profession for me. I suppose I'd not be able to put my finger on exactly why, but it has much to do with the aforementioned novelty of it. I haven't played anything else that's really like that, why dismiss that which has worth?

    They removed the classic shroud of necromancers with Scourge and gave them shades as a mechanic and it worked out just fine. I wish they would do something similar to the mesmer to give them more diversity and uniqueness than just having shatters all the time!

    They should make the hp slightly higher but not too high and make the shatters really hurt a lot more for the difficulty in shattering. There should be a high reward in massive damage since your illusions have low hp anyways and maybe have F1 buttons on core to buff illusions maybe sacrifice all illusions but keeps the clones and sacrificing them makes clones stronger faster.

    Then again i'm no expert so you tell me would this be logical?

    My idea: Chronomancer low sustain as team player shatterer: Force enemies to think: OK its a chronomancer the shatters really hurt, and if i don't pay attention and destroy the clones, i'm dead meat. Maybe for instance with help of team mates your rewarded by killing people with those huge shatters of 15k dmg or something.

    If they stay low hp, and in my opinion for the dmg shatters should do and be rewarded, should stay low hp giving a counter to shatters.

    For core: If they could change the way core f1's work, so you can only buff clones the way i said with F1 buttons and managing your clones and illusions.

    I am actually mainly thinking of SPVP right now, but maybe this can somehow be incorporated into WVW?

    It would make chrono more viable and give a fun reward in that if you land a shatter you are rewarded for it and your enemies punished for not being careful enough

    Here is my list of characters i got so far:

    Elementalist 80 with tempest:Talman nul
    Necromancer 80 with reaper:Zex vokar
    Mesmer level 80 no chrono yet:Klanga voosh.
    Level 80 Ranger with druid spec Jedkhan.

  • viquing.8254viquing.8254 Member ✭✭✭✭
    Yes (Why?)

    Yes because mesmer was more fun before june 2015.
    And more practically there is many way to brain them and few to make them work, particulary in a aoe fiesta PvP scenario where time catches up and old signet of illusions aren't a things anymore.

  • SloRules.3560SloRules.3560 Member ✭✭✭
    Yes (Why?)

    Remove illusions and give us some kind of illusionary form

  • Yasai.3549Yasai.3549 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I would like an espec that focuses less on Clone spamming but when they would summon a clone, they build up resource internally instead.
    When resource level hits a certain level, they can summon a Double of themselves which will attack with Shatters and then expire after a duration.

    1 Resource : Double uses Mind Wrack repeatedly for 10s, focusing the target that it was cast on. Goes on 5s cooldown.
    2 Resource : Double alternates using Mind Wrack and Cry of Frustration for 15s, focusing on the target it was cast on. Goes on 7s cooldown.
    3 Resource : Double alternates using Mind Wrack and Cry of Frustration, casting Diversion every 5th cast, for 20s, focusing on the target it was cast on. Goes on 15s cooldown.

    So they wouldn't have like "no shatters at all" but they would only have two :
    Shatter : Doppleganger
    Shatter : Distortion

    If I play a stupid build, I deserve to die.
    If I beat people on a stupid build, I deserve to get away with it.

  • Tseison.4659Tseison.4659 Member ✭✭✭
    Yes (Why?)

    @Yasai.3549 said:
    I would like an espec that focuses less on Clone spamming but when they would summon a clone, they build up resource internally instead.
    When resource level hits a certain level, they can summon a Double of themselves which will attack with Shatters and then expire after a duration.

    1 Resource : Double uses Mind Wrack repeatedly for 10s, focusing the target that it was cast on. Goes on 5s cooldown.
    2 Resource : Double alternates using Mind Wrack and Cry of Frustration for 15s, focusing on the target it was cast on. Goes on 7s cooldown.
    3 Resource : Double alternates using Mind Wrack and Cry of Frustration, casting Diversion every 5th cast, for 20s, focusing on the target it was cast on. Goes on 15s cooldown.

    So they wouldn't have like "no shatters at all" but they would only have two :
    Shatter : Doppleganger
    Shatter : Distortion

    Yeah I wouldn’t mind something along these lines, of course tweaked a bit. Just as long as the next e spec I don’t have to rely on shattering as a damage source. Shatters don’t bring anything new while every other professions new e-spec gets something different...

  • Mungo Zen.9364Mungo Zen.9364 Member ✭✭✭
    No (Why?)

    I voted no but, overall think the design space doesn't have to be changed but could be used differently.

    eSpec idea:

    1 permanent Clone Illusion that copies your weapon skills and target, but not your Utilities. F1-F4 are replaced with F1-F3 Clone specific Utilities (Power, Condi, CC most likely combo). You Illusion skills now do not create clones, but rather power up a 6-8 pip power bar that is drained by using Clone Utilities.

    Consider it a pseudo hybrid of Ranger Pet with Guardian Firebrand Tome pips. The intent is to create the flow of charging up your Clone Utilities and then using the Clone Utilities either in rotation or as required.

  • Yes (Why?)

    I also like the idea of actively controlling the phantasm, which only died when killed. Perhaps we can get Soulbeast-like "pet" skills, with F1 power based skill, F2 condi based skill, F3 CC based skill, and F4 for phantasm dodge. The clones are still shattered as ammos for these skills and the more clones shattered, the more powerful the phantasm skills become. Thematically, I think Warhorn weapon suits well (though frankly I don't like warhorn as weapon, in general).

  • Alpha.1308Alpha.1308 Member ✭✭✭
    edited January 4, 2021
    Yes (Why?)

    i'm fine with shatters, i just don't think we need another couple of years (especially if it's the last, who knows where this game is going), of having all 3 e-specs and base mesmer all doing the same exact thing, chrono and mirage were already perfect candidates to change shatters/clones/phantasms into literally anything else... and they just..... didn't.....

    having an entire class with no way out of revolving around pets that can just get CC'd or killed before they can even utilize their mechanic is an absolute nightmare to have no alternative on, especially given the fact that the theme of mesmers can be literally anything.... they're illusionists... not beastmasters, and i absolutely adore summoner classes, they're always my first choice in every game... but this... this needs to come to an end, even if just for a single e-spec

    i don't even care if we don't get a new weapon at all, and instead just change how the clones/phantasms work on the current weapons, traits, and utilities for the e-spec
    just please unbind us from this mechanic designed nothing more than to gloat in a 1v1

    i get that they're "duelists", but seriously, e-specs were supposed to actually change the feel of a class, and only chrono barely did it with support, but even then it's questionable compared to other supports at this point due to how much they've been nerfed them and put their utility on others because of how oppressive or simply required it is to have

    i don't know how exactly the meta is, i stopped playing this game at this point a long time ago, but in any game, a literal "chronomancer" sounds like it would never be replaced, and if that's still the case, it's still a poor design choice for pigeonholing someone into being the only one who can offer control over literal time

  • Lucio.4190Lucio.4190 Member ✭✭✭
    edited January 4, 2021
    No (Why?)

    I've seen some guides where the build depends on Shatter and I think it's okay to keep that, as an option.
    I would like to have alternatives, instead of Shatter you could select another set of skills focusing on other types of damage or advantages depending on your choice of Specializations and Alignment.

    If we have a Core Mesmer that uses Chaos, Domination and Inspiration:
    Shatter could be selected for Chaos, the clones wouldn't live for long. They could do lower damage (60% of X damage) while they are clones. When shattered they make 1,7x more (100%).
    Hex could be selected for Domination, the clones would live until killed. They have another set of skills, maybe Power Flux, Power Leech, Ineptitude, Fevered Dreams...
    Healer could be selected for Inspiration, the clones will act supportive for the Mesmer and the allies with another set of skills that buffs, heals or increases the defense.
    Tank (couldn't find a better name) could be selected for Mirage, the clones will buff the Mesmer with Toughness, Vitality, Swiftness and Alacrity.
    etc.

    I think that would be a better change for clones and for the Mesmer, instead of just removing the Shatter. Depending on which Specializations you have selected, those skill sets could be available and then you could select one of them as your Alignment. If the enemy kills the clone that buffs the Mesmer with extra Vitality, then that Vitality bonus will disappear until that clone is summoned again (Cool Down: 30-45 seconds?)
    As an example: If you have Domination, Chaos and Mirage. You should be able to select one those sets that belongs to Domination, Chaos or Mirage. That set will be your F1-F4.

    I believe that will give a Mesmer a lot more options and not limit us to only Shatters, but also keep that alternative if someone likes them.

    Edit: Sorry.. I see some mixup in my examples, but... I hope you get the idea of what I'm trying to describe. Depending on which Alignment you choose, that will affect the F1-F4 keys and give you or your allies buffs, or they could be used as attacks or hexes on your enemies.

  • I'd like a new button on top to make the clones to phantasms which they once were... XD

  • Trianox.3486Trianox.3486 Member ✭✭✭

    I actually though Chronomancer would have played without "shatter",

    • instead gaining a "time shard" (stack up to 3, like clones, when you cast clone/when they die/disappear), with each stack granting a pulsing AoE slow (every X second) of a wider radius, "shattering" the time shards, granting the effects of F1-2-3-4 based on the number of shards... Etc.
      More shards mean longer time split, but time.split would not be depending upon the number of active summons but rather based on the number of stacked time shards, same for each F-skills.

    • we could also have had some sort of phantasmal armor/cloak that we could "shatter" for each summon again stacking more charges/levels/effects whether based on active summons or based on summons that died. Each charge/stacking lasting a defined amount of time? Each stack grant defensive capacity which you sacrifice for a big hit/effect when you shatter.

    All traits would therefore still be valid/workable.

  • Armen.1483Armen.1483 Member ✭✭✭
    No (Why?)

    without shatters the clone management wouldn't be a thing. It is actually what makes mesmer a mesmer. Mesmer without shatters is same as a ranger without pets. Maybe make them work differently, but removing it will just make mesmer not be a mesmer anymore. I'd rather create a new class than removing shatters.

  • No (Why?)

    Usually I use my shatters to get stab while stomping lol

  • draxynnic.3719draxynnic.3719 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Kencu.5846 said:
    Usually I use my shatters to get stab while stomping lol

    Given how many traits there are that influence shatters, I think it's pretty much guaranteed that anything that replaces them will trigger the same traits, including Bountiful Disillusionment.

  • Vancho.8750Vancho.8750 Member ✭✭✭✭

    What about a doppelganger speck where you get large hp pool , no clones or summons just one exact copy of the character, either permanent mirror image which shares the HP pool or something like Necro life force mechanic where you gather HP to summon the second you. The F skills will let you port to it or it to you, have a shield wall kind of mechanic where they defend each other and a tandem attack skill that repeats the main characters skills something like the doppelganger from DMC

  • Leonidrex.5649Leonidrex.5649 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Vancho.8750 said:
    What about a doppelganger speck where you get large hp pool , no clones or summons just one exact copy of the character, either permanent mirror image which shares the HP pool or something like Necro life force mechanic where you gather HP to summon the second you. The F skills will let you port to it or it to you, have a shield wall kind of mechanic where they defend each other and a tandem attack skill that repeats the main characters skills something like the doppelganger from DMC

    sounds cool, wont work.
    I cant see current dev team being able to pull something like this off, and if they do we will face several years of bugs the like of which we never seen before.
    to top it off spec would be gutted into the ground from the start, since switching a place is too confusing for 95% of population.

  • Vancho.8750Vancho.8750 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @Vancho.8750 said:
    What about a doppelganger speck where you get large hp pool , no clones or summons just one exact copy of the character, either permanent mirror image which shares the HP pool or something like Necro life force mechanic where you gather HP to summon the second you. The F skills will let you port to it or it to you, have a shield wall kind of mechanic where they defend each other and a tandem attack skill that repeats the main characters skills something like the doppelganger from DMC

    sounds cool, wont work.
    I cant see current dev team being able to pull something like this off, and if they do we will face several years of bugs the like of which we never seen before.
    to top it off spec would be gutted into the ground from the start, since switching a place is too confusing for 95% of population.

    Well yeah, you are right they can't seem manage something basic like warrior, and im proposing something that switches bodies , but one can dream right.

  • Tseison.4659Tseison.4659 Member ✭✭✭
    Yes (Why?)

    Well yeah, you are right they can't seem manage something basic like warrior, and im proposing something that switches bodies , but one can dream right.

    Hey Vancho,
    So yes it does and looks cool when I watched the video but Anet is VERY lazy and on top of that, they essentially ruined the Mesmer by tieing the shatter mechanic to them for every single E-Spec which is VERY distasteful and unoriginal. I’m afraid for EoDs E-Spec...

    However to add to your idea, awhile back I thought of just incorporating the “White Mantle Illusion” ability called “Break Illusion to Defeat”. Not sure if you’ve fought one but it’s basically you attack the Mesmer and once it’s “dead” it reveals that you only defeated the illusion of them and then you have to kill the real one.

    This idea I really like because it acts as a sort of “illusion of weakness” from the original game.

  • Salt Mode.3780Salt Mode.3780 Member ✭✭✭
    edited January 17, 2021
    No (Why?)

    No for a very simple reason. Too many mesmer traits revolve and work around shatters if you are asking for a spec that does no shatter that means ALL those shatter related traits would have to have a 2nd effect specifically for a non shatter mesmer spec. With how they balanced mirage by removing a dodge rather then going another route I doubt they will decide to do this. Mirage esp condi mirage is a class that is played more passively having as much clone uptime as possible and only shattering when needed in comparison to Chronos that require to shatter as much as possible to get more alacrity for CD reductions.

  • draxynnic.3719draxynnic.3719 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 18, 2021

    @Salt Mode.3780 said:
    No for a very simple reason. Too many mesmer traits revolve and work around shatters if you are asking for a spec that does no shatter that means ALL those shatter related traits would have to have a 2nd effect specifically for a non shatter mesmer spec. With how they balanced mirage by removing a dodge rather then going another route I doubt they will decide to do this. Mirage esp condi mirage is a class that is played more passively having as much clone uptime as possible and only shattering when needed in comparison to Chronos that require to shatter as much as possible to get more alacrity for CD reductions.

    Like I said earlier, all they need is for the replacements to be something similar enough that the traits still make sense. Like necromancer shroud traits.

    F1 does power damage. F2 inflicts conditions (specifically, Confusion). F3 is a CC effect. F4 is a defensive effect. As long as they keep to those rules, all the core traits would still apply. Heck, they might not even need to be that fussy about it.

  • Yes (Why?)

    But again, i wouldn't want that if it means further imbalance to the mesmer and further future nerfs that might eventually happen because of this. Because then anet nerfs one thing that affects all others that never needed nerfs in the first place due to how closely everything on mesmer is tied to the shatters and illusion generation.

    I guess internal software could make it generate other things in their stead like instead of clones and phantasms gain 10 stacks of might/gain 1,000 health etc. but that does lead to balancing issues for other traits.

  • Tseison.4659Tseison.4659 Member ✭✭✭
    Yes (Why?)

    @HotDelirium.7984 said:

    But again, i wouldn't want that if it means further imbalance to the mesmer and further future nerfs that might eventually happen because of this. Because then anet nerfs one thing that affects all others that never needed nerfs in the first place due to how closely everything on mesmer is tied to the shatters and illusion generation.

    I guess internal software could make it generate other things in their stead like instead of clones and phantasms gain 10 stacks of might/gain 1,000 health etc. but that does lead to balancing issues for other traits.

    I updated my post but I'll mention here as to what I wrote just to bump the thread again. Basically, my thoughts in balancing are to merge shatter traits into the shatters themselves, which will free up a lot of traits to be filled with something else. Which I think would be great because it’ll give the class a chance to get unique and better traits that can be focused on the Mesmer itself or their utility skills and less on the shatter mechanic. I've gone through the entire list of shatter traits and it's very distasteful how there are so many of them, but it's 99.9% doable to have them simply "come with" the shatter(s).

    At first I was thinking maybe the next E-Spec would follow the same route as the Soul Beast and we'd get some form of stat buffs but I don't think they'd recycle something like that since it's nothing new.

  • draxynnic.3719draxynnic.3719 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @HotDelirium.7984 said:

    But again, i wouldn't want that if it means further imbalance to the mesmer and further future nerfs that might eventually happen because of this. Because then anet nerfs one thing that affects all others that never needed nerfs in the first place due to how closely everything on mesmer is tied to the shatters and illusion generation.

    I guess internal software could make it generate other things in their stead like instead of clones and phantasms gain 10 stacks of might/gain 1,000 health etc. but that does lead to balancing issues for other traits.

    I doubt that clones and phantasms are ever likely to be removed - there are just too many skills that use them. I could, however, see clones becoming something that is just there, rather than a resource needed to fuel additional abilities.

  • Mungo Zen.9364Mungo Zen.9364 Member ✭✭✭
    No (Why?)

    @Tseison.4659 said:

    @HotDelirium.7984 said:

    But again, i wouldn't want that if it means further imbalance to the mesmer and further future nerfs that might eventually happen because of this. Because then anet nerfs one thing that affects all others that never needed nerfs in the first place due to how closely everything on mesmer is tied to the shatters and illusion generation.

    I guess internal software could make it generate other things in their stead like instead of clones and phantasms gain 10 stacks of might/gain 1,000 health etc. but that does lead to balancing issues for other traits.

    I updated my post but I'll mention here as to what I wrote just to bump the thread again. Basically, my thoughts in balancing are to merge shatter traits into the shatters themselves, which will free up a lot of traits to be filled with something else. Which I think would be great because it’ll give the class a chance to get unique and better traits that can be focused on the Mesmer itself or their utility skills and less on the shatter mechanic. I've gone through the entire list of shatter traits and it's very distasteful how there are so many of them, but it's 99.9% doable to have them simply "come with" the shatter(s).

    At first I was thinking maybe the next E-Spec would follow the same route as the Soul Beast and we'd get some form of stat buffs but I don't think they'd recycle something like that since it's nothing new.

    Perhaps I am looking at this from a significantly different angle than you. Shatters are the core mechanic for Mesmer, just as Virtues are for Guardians, Adrenaline for Warriors etc. These profession specific mechanics all have multiple Core traits associated with them, some just as underwhelming as Mesmer's worst, some arguably better than Mesmer's best..

    So one argument for or against this would include "if Mesmers Prof Mechanics are baked in, all classes should have similar treatment." Most professions appear to have 4-6 Core traits that affect the Prof Mechanic. I believe that while you could bake all these traits into the prof mechanic, it doesn't actually improve anything unless there is something created to fill the void.

    So what do you suggest we replace these traits with? Is it Mesmer specific or does it apply to all professions?

  • Tseison.4659Tseison.4659 Member ✭✭✭
    Yes (Why?)

    I believe that while you could bake all these traits into the prof mechanic, it doesn't actually improve anything unless there is something created to fill the void.

    So what do you suggest we replace these traits with? Is it Mesmer specific or does it apply to all professions?

    Agreed that's why I mentioned that when those traits are merged within the Shatters, that it frees up space to have new and more unique traits to take their place. What that pertains too would obviously be up to Anet. But as I also mentioned, the "new" traits can revolve around affecting our utility skills/elite or the Mesmer themselves.

  • Norbe.7630Norbe.7630 Member ✭✭✭

    Chrono active 2 dodge
    Mirage active 1 dodge
    3rd elite active 0 dodge make it chance percentage like passive

    Why So Serious?

  • draxynnic.3719draxynnic.3719 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Norbe.7630 said:
    Chrono active 2 dodge
    Mirage active 1 dodge
    3rd elite active 0 dodge make it chance percentage like passive

    Mirror Image spec. Every time you would otherwise get hit while you have a clone active, you get evasion for a second, but a clone pops.

    Over time, the evade duration gets balanced downwards, until each clone is basically just an Aegis.

  • Yes (Why?)

    I'd vote yes, just to see something different after 9 years :P

  • Mik.3401Mik.3401 Member ✭✭
    Yes (Why?)

    I think it would be nice to remove the shatters and replace them with some sort of mechanism bringing the GW1 mesmer back to life. Hex skills and maybe summoning monster phantasms instead of clones would be cool