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Why waste resources on this unwanted game mode that is "Living World"

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  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 5, 2021

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:
    I'm gonna repeat the examples of CoF P1 farm, Penit/Shelter farm, Silverwastes Chest farm, Auric Basin ML farm, Istan Farm, Fractal 40 farm, Swamp of the Mists farm, and all the other activities that over the years gathered a gigantic segment of the playerbase "enjoying" them. With your point of view, they did it because it was the most enjoyable/fun content the game ever had. I find that entirely absurd.

    You find it absurd because it's based on your own misunderstanding of what I'm saying. In addition, you don't have any ACTUAL data to support the idea that players didn't like playing in the game mode where those content examples exist. It doesn't disprove ANY of what I have said, which is based on a very reasonable assumption that players do content they like and those content are associated with specific game modes. Again, an example of how you are not understanding what I'm saying.

    I have plenty of data to support the idea that players play content they don't enjoy, it's in what you quoted above. Notice how all of those were over-populated (even Anet said so) and once their rewards were gone, so did their popularity. I guess it just happened for thousands of players to lose interest in those activities at the same time when their rewards were nerfed, it was just a coincidence.

    Not sure why you bring "game modes" in the discussion at this point in time but sure whatever.

  • Obtena.7952Obtena.7952 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 5, 2021

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:
    I'm gonna repeat the examples of CoF P1 farm, Penit/Shelter farm, Silverwastes Chest farm, Auric Basin ML farm, Istan Farm, Fractal 40 farm, Swamp of the Mists farm, and all the other activities that over the years gathered a gigantic segment of the playerbase "enjoying" them. With your point of view, they did it because it was the most enjoyable/fun content the game ever had. I find that entirely absurd.

    You find it absurd because it's based on your own misunderstanding of what I'm saying. In addition, you don't have any ACTUAL data to support the idea that players didn't like playing in the game mode where those content examples exist. It doesn't disprove ANY of what I have said, which is based on a very reasonable assumption that players do content they like and those content are associated with specific game modes. Again, an example of how you are not understanding what I'm saying.

    I have plenty of data to support the idea that players play content they don't enjoy,

    No ... a list of zones is NOT data related to measuring player enjoyment. That's just your misunderstanding of what data actually is. If you want to present data, go for it ... but understand what data actually is to begin with if you do.

    But I'm not talking about people's levels of enjoyment anyways because 'enjoyment' isn't an objective measure; that's just you continuing to misinterpret ... and it's getting really old at this point. Even in those examples you provide, people have a reason to like doing that content, whether they like the rewards or they like the content or they like how their class mechanics work in that encounter or ... whatever it is. NO one is spending time doing content they have no reason to like doing. This is why comparing time spent in a game mode is a valid approach to figuring out what people like to do, REGARDLESS of the reason they like it.

    Not sure why you bring "game modes" in the discussion at this point in time but sure whatever.

    big ? there ... I guess that's just another consequence of you misunderstanding. The whole thread is about asking why Anet is developing an 'unwanted' game mode. The answer is simple ... because it's where the money is. That's what started your whole debate with me in the first place. Obviously you have a personal interest to decouple the REASONABLE idea that Anet should focus development on game modes that make them money ... but it's not debatable that Anet can determine what game modes those are based on player activity and relating that to how much is spent by those players.

    If you're on a highway and roadrunner goes "beep beep"
    Just step aside or you might end up in a heap

  • Mungo Zen.9364Mungo Zen.9364 Member ✭✭✭
    edited January 5, 2021

    @maddoctor.2738 said:
    I have plenty of data to support the idea that players play content they don't enjoy, it's in what you quoted above. Notice how all of those were over-populated (even Anet said so) and once their rewards were gone, so did their popularity. I guess it just happened for thousands of players to lose interest in those activities at the same time when their rewards were nerfed, it was just a coincidence.

    I do understand the correlation you are trying to make here, that players do not like specific content once it had it's rewards nerfed. Or that players will play content with better rewards even if they don't necessarily enjoy it.

    I agree that in some cases players will engage content that they don't like as much as other content (hello Gift of Battle and Exploration) but that typically is a stepping stone to get to something they do enjoy, be it owning a legendary or new skins, AP, or whatever.

    You noted a large number of nerfed farms, but I do not think players taking advantage of one system means they were not enjoying the content. What one could deduce is that a large number of players will go to the most efficient content to farm. The fact that the content that was farmed is still being played daily (at least in NA) let's us know that the content is enjoyable enough without the rewards.

    Have a look at Drizzlewood, this was a farm built by Anet, and it has generally speaking, been very successful. Loads of players have gone there and still do, the rewards are pretty good, and they have slowly nerfed the challenge and made collecting rewards easier.

    I anticipate over time that less players will go to DW even though it is technically getting easier. At some point new content will appear and draw players towards it, regardless of what happens to DW or other existing content. This doesn't mean that DW was bad or that players didn't enjoy it, anymore than AB is bad or unenjoyable.

    What it means is there are a great many variables that affect player engagement with content and replay-ability, rewards are just one piece of this.

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Obtena.7952 said:
    OK ... but I'm not talking about people's levels of enjoyment. You continue to misinterpret and it's getting old.

    But I am talking about what players enjoy or find fun and have been since the start, not sure how YOU are misinterpreting that. You are saying they should focus their attention on content based on how much time is spent on it by the players, I'm saying they should focus their attention on content that is the most enjoyable by the players. I focus on the why, you focus on the what, and believe they can infer the why using the what. Do note that since my initial response to you:
    https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/121241/why-waste-resources-on-this-unwanted-game-mode-that-is-living-world/p1
    I was talking about content, not entire game mode, because talking about entire game modes is silly, since most of the so called "game modes" consist of dozens of different types of content. Same goes for every single example I gave to you.

  • Obtena.7952Obtena.7952 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 5, 2021

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:
    OK ... but I'm not talking about people's levels of enjoyment. You continue to misinterpret and it's getting old.

    But I am talking about what players enjoy or find fun ...

    OK ... but you are the one that started the discussion with ME based on what I said. If you are going to be disagreeable to what I'm saying, fine. But if you are going to be disagreeable because you decide to make the discussion about what YOU want to talk about and not about what I said, you are being disingenuous. I'm not going to debate with you about content players enjoy and it's impact on revenue ... and that's NOT the first time I'm telling you this ... so take a hint buddy.

    People are NOT doing content they don't have a reason to like doing at the expense of doing content they DO have a reason to like doing. That's not debatable. That's the premise of what I'm telling you. If you disagree with that, you don't understand what you are reading.

    If you're on a highway and roadrunner goes "beep beep"
    Just step aside or you might end up in a heap

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Mungo Zen.9364 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:
    I have plenty of data to support the idea that players play content they don't enjoy, it's in what you quoted above. Notice how all of those were over-populated (even Anet said so) and once their rewards were gone, so did their popularity. I guess it just happened for thousands of players to lose interest in those activities at the same time when their rewards were nerfed, it was just a coincidence.


    I do understand the correlation you are trying to make here, that players do not like specific content once it had it's rewards nerfed. Or that players will play content with better rewards even if they don't necessarily enjoy it.

    I agree that in some cases players will engage content that they don't like as much as other content (hello Gift of Battle and Exploration) but that typically is a stepping stone to get to something they do enjoy, be it owning a legendary or new skins, AP, or whatever.

    You noted a large number of nerfed farms, but I do not think players taking advantage of one system means they were not enjoying the content. What one could deduce is that a large number of players will go to the most efficient content to farm. The fact that the content that was farmed is still being played daily (at least in NA) let's us know that the content is enjoyable enough without the rewards.

    Have a look at Drizzlewood, this was a farm built by Anet, and it has generally speaking, been very successful. Loads of players have gone there and still do, the rewards are pretty good, and they have slowly nerfed the challenge and made collecting rewards easier.

    I anticipate over time that less players will go to DW even though it is technically getting easier. At some point new content will appear and draw players towards it, regardless of what happens to DW or other existing content. This doesn't mean that DW was bad or that players didn't enjoy it, anymore than AB is bad or unenjoyable.

    What it means is there are a great many variables that affect player engagement with content and replay-ability, rewards are just one piece of this.

    Of course there are many variables, the question is about what to use to base future content development on. Although the nerfed content is still being played (some of it at least, some are officially dead) it's a far cry from how popular it used to be. Which is why I gave the examples in the first place, if Anet based future development on the inflated versions they would be over-represented.

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:
    OK ... but I'm not talking about people's levels of enjoyment. You continue to misinterpret and it's getting old.

    But I am talking about what players enjoy or find fun ...

    OK ... but you are the one that started the discussion with ME based on what I said. If you are going to be disagreeable to what I'm saying, fine. But if you are going to be disagreeable because you decide to make the discussion about what YOU want to talk about and not about what I said, you are being disingenuous. I'm not going to debate with you about content players enjoy and it's impact on revenue ... and that's NOT the first time I'm telling you this ... so take a hint buddy.

    People are NOT doing content they don't have a reason to like doing at the expense of doing content they DO have a reason to like doing. That's not debatable. That's the premise of what I'm telling you. If you disagree with that, you don't understand what you are reading.

    Actually you are the one being disingenuous here.

    I specifically mentioned Thunderhead Keep meta (nothing to do with game modes):

    I'm curious about your sample size for your interviews and which platform you used for it to get varied data from as many people as possible. I did a small exercise today, asking during a Thunderhead Keep meta how many players in the squad are actually buying gems, got no answer. So... meta players don't pay gems?

    and you responded (and started this entire debate) turning the narrative to game modes:

    We don't need interviews with players to figure out what game modes make money ... we know based on where Anet focuses development of the game.

    I was simply getting the argument back to what it was, which you misinterpreted, misunderstood and started changing to suit your own agenda. You started the discussion with me based on what I said and changed the narrative. It's funny that you mention:

    YOU want to talk about and not about what I said, you are being disingenuous

    Which is exactly what you've been doing since your very first response to me.

  • Obtena.7952Obtena.7952 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 5, 2021

    @maddoctor.2738 We are done here; you have admitted to disputing my claim without addressing what I'm saying and starting your own side conversation that I continually tell you I'm not engaging you in.

    People are NOT doing content they don't have a reason to like at the expense of doing content they DO have a reason to like. Therefore, time spent is a good measure of what content people are doing for reasons based on what they like and Anet can relate player spending to that time spent to figure out where to focus development as part of a consideration in creating revenue. Anyone disputing that is obtuse or has some agenda based on their own self-interests.

    If you're on a highway and roadrunner goes "beep beep"
    Just step aside or you might end up in a heap

  • Mungo Zen.9364Mungo Zen.9364 Member ✭✭✭

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Mungo Zen.9364 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:
    I have plenty of data to support the idea that players play content they don't enjoy, it's in what you quoted above. Notice how all of those were over-populated (even Anet said so) and once their rewards were gone, so did their popularity. I guess it just happened for thousands of players to lose interest in those activities at the same time when their rewards were nerfed, it was just a coincidence.


    I do understand the correlation you are trying to make here, that players do not like specific content once it had it's rewards nerfed. Or that players will play content with better rewards even if they don't necessarily enjoy it.

    I agree that in some cases players will engage content that they don't like as much as other content (hello Gift of Battle and Exploration) but that typically is a stepping stone to get to something they do enjoy, be it owning a legendary or new skins, AP, or whatever.

    You noted a large number of nerfed farms, but I do not think players taking advantage of one system means they were not enjoying the content. What one could deduce is that a large number of players will go to the most efficient content to farm. The fact that the content that was farmed is still being played daily (at least in NA) let's us know that the content is enjoyable enough without the rewards.

    Have a look at Drizzlewood, this was a farm built by Anet, and it has generally speaking, been very successful. Loads of players have gone there and still do, the rewards are pretty good, and they have slowly nerfed the challenge and made collecting rewards easier.

    I anticipate over time that less players will go to DW even though it is technically getting easier. At some point new content will appear and draw players towards it, regardless of what happens to DW or other existing content. This doesn't mean that DW was bad or that players didn't enjoy it, anymore than AB is bad or unenjoyable.

    What it means is there are a great many variables that affect player engagement with content and replay-ability, rewards are just one piece of this.

    Of course there are many variables, the question is about what to use to base future content development on. Although the nerfed content is still being played (some of it at least, some are officially dead) it's a far cry from how popular it used to be. Which is why I gave the examples in the first place, if Anet based future development on the inflated versions they would be over-represented.

    Well, yes and no....

    If you look at Auric Basin as an example, there wasn't a nerf to the rewards, there was a fix to how players interacted with the map instances. Of course Anet cannot rely on numbers from a broken mechanic like this which was being abused by players.

    I again lean on Drizzlewood as it is new and well done. It points to the lessons learned from previous content additions. Did you engage in (or even know) about the Otter multi-loot that they removed a short while after DW North was released? Just as with AB, you could log multiple toons to loot the same chests, in this case to farm the Otter items (completely unintended, just as with AB). Did that reduce the number of people playing in DW when it was fixed? Perhaps but, with the positive changes (such as moving all the chests to the end of DW North) they have maintained what I would call good player engagement since.

    Now compare that to Winterberry farming, which has always (as far as I know) allowed multiple toons to loot the nodes. This is something that doesn't apply to all LS currency nodes. It strikes me as very deliberate and again, reflects on lessons learned by Anet and how to provide content for players.

    I would surmise that while Anet might do some questionable things (hello DRM) that overall they do understand what the player base engages in, and how that reflects the revenues they generate. What we cannot see though, is how Anet assess revenue generation and its correlation to creating new game content or changing existing content.

  • Linken.6345Linken.6345 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 5, 2021

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:
    I'm gonna repeat the examples of CoF P1 farm, Penit/Shelter farm, Silverwastes Chest farm, Auric Basin ML farm, Istan Farm, Fractal 40 farm, Swamp of the Mists farm, and all the other activities that over the years gathered a gigantic segment of the playerbase "enjoying" them. With your point of view, they did it because it was the most enjoyable/fun content the game ever had. I find that entirely absurd.

    You find it absurd because it's based on your own misunderstanding of what I'm saying. In addition, you don't have any ACTUAL data to support the idea that players didn't like playing in the game mode where those content examples exist. It doesn't disprove ANY of what I have said, which is based on a very reasonable assumption that players do content they like and those content are associated with specific game modes. Again, an example of how you are not understanding what I'm saying.

    Maybe you believe that most players in this game are spending most their time in game modes they dislike. I'm sure that's just based on an agenda you have to push development for unpopular game modes and content, but it still doesn't make sense. Players that dislike WvW are not spending most their time in WvW ... the same goes for PVE and PVP.

    They most sertainly are in wvw if they want a 2.5 legendary, even if they hate the game mode.

  • Obtena.7952Obtena.7952 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 6, 2021

    @Linken.6345 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:
    I'm gonna repeat the examples of CoF P1 farm, Penit/Shelter farm, Silverwastes Chest farm, Auric Basin ML farm, Istan Farm, Fractal 40 farm, Swamp of the Mists farm, and all the other activities that over the years gathered a gigantic segment of the playerbase "enjoying" them. With your point of view, they did it because it was the most enjoyable/fun content the game ever had. I find that entirely absurd.

    You find it absurd because it's based on your own misunderstanding of what I'm saying. In addition, you don't have any ACTUAL data to support the idea that players didn't like playing in the game mode where those content examples exist. It doesn't disprove ANY of what I have said, which is based on a very reasonable assumption that players do content they like and those content are associated with specific game modes. Again, an example of how you are not understanding what I'm saying.

    Maybe you believe that most players in this game are spending most their time in game modes they dislike. I'm sure that's just based on an agenda you have to push development for unpopular game modes and content, but it still doesn't make sense. Players that dislike WvW are not spending most their time in WvW ... the same goes for PVE and PVP.

    They most sertainly are in wvw if they want a 2.5 legendary, even if they hate the game mode.

    OK ... that's doesn't change what I said ... people sure are adept at missing the word "most" in my writing. Furthermore, those people are not in WvW because they like the content ... as I already explained, the reason they are there because they like the idea of owning a legendary. There IS a reason they are doing that content based on some reason they like. That's my point ... it always has been and will be.

    I mean ... you guys DO realize that when you provide examples of people doing content they have lots of reasons to dislike ... you're supporting my point right? I will let you think about why that's true.

    If you're on a highway and roadrunner goes "beep beep"
    Just step aside or you might end up in a heap

  • Vayne.8563Vayne.8563 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Ashantara.8731 said:

    @Vayne.8563 said:
    Living World and Festivals are predominantly what I play. I dabble in WvW and Fractals, but if you took away the living world, I wouldn't be around very long. I assure you I'm not alone.

    Same, though I prefer expansions over Living World episodes, for I am not a fan of the inconsistent quality and quantity of Living World releases. I'd rather see small Side Stories released in between expansions than LW episodes.

    Let me play devil's advocate for a second. If LS episodes have uneven quality what makes you think expansions won't be subject to the same forces? The difference is, if an expansion is bad, it's game over. The game will probably go directly into maintenance mode, because the game can't take a hit like this. If a single episode of the living world is bad, two months later something good might come out.

    When HoT came out, even though it had raids and a lot of more hard core players like it, it really hurt the game. A lot of casual players either played less or left entirely. The expansion, which I consider to be the best part of this game, didn't really help the game, which is why Path of Fire undid almost everything in HoT. They want with less important meta events and replaced them with bounties were weren't on timers. They made all hero points soloable fort a player of reasonable skill. They made masteries easy to complete with less "grinding".

    All because the expansion, Heart of Thorns, cost the company casual support. A good expansion is awesome, but what guarantees do we have that the expansion will be a good one and what will be the result if it's not.

    Anyway as it stands we're getting both expansions and living world, so it's not a one or the other anyway.

  • Ashantara.8731Ashantara.8731 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Vayne.8563 said:
    Let me play devil's advocate for a second. If LS episodes have uneven quality what makes you think expansions won't be subject to the same forces?

    1. The past has proven it (in GW1 and GW2).
    2. Logic. It is one project that gets one evaluation at the end. It is well-rounded quality-wise, regardless of the different people working on it.
    3. Another big plus: you get the whole story in one piece.
  • Vayne.8563Vayne.8563 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Ashantara.8731 said:

    @Vayne.8563 said:
    Let me play devil's advocate for a second. If LS episodes have uneven quality what makes you think expansions won't be subject to the same forces?

    1. The past has proven it (in GW1 and GW2).
    2. Logic. It is one project that gets one evaluation at the end. It is well-rounded quality-wise, regardless of the different people working on it.
    3. Another big plus: you get the whole story in one piece.

    I'm saying it wasn't proven in Guild Wars 2. As much as I like HoT I think it hurt the game short term.

  • ugrakarma.9416ugrakarma.9416 Member ✭✭✭✭

    forum was never metrics for anything in any game, normally pvp related stuff always have more complaints = more posts;.

    main pvp: Khel the Undead(power reaper).