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Thief and WvW (Need Nerf)

mrt.7813mrt.7813 Member ✭✭
edited January 5, 2021 in Thief

Hello friends

I've been playing since 2013 This is lately the thieves got into the game

How is it logic to fly 3000 range using a skill?
shotbow 5 time needs to be added
invisibility times need to be reduced
Keep / Gari Hiding Members Always non-stop.
10 people run after a thief now it has become cancer-like I do not understand
what should we players do? I push logical explanation Regulations must come to thieves.

we know the logic for thief but not that much When it comes 2 3, it goes out of range in 1 2 seconds no class like this If you run away and recover, dive behind you in 1 or 2 seconds and make waves, the crime here is in the areanenet team.

10 people run after a thief now it has become cancer-like I do not understand
what should we players do? I push logical explanation Regulations must come to thieves. we eventually have to swear or insult the games!

Best regards

Comments

  • mrt.7813mrt.7813 Member ✭✭

    @Caedmon.6798 said:
    3k range what skill ?
    shoTbow 5 needs to be added to what ?
    invis needs to be reduced why ?
    Keep.garri hiding cant be done since theres a radar after a cap.
    10 people run after One thief Why exactly ?

    Stop resorting to calling a spec with the C word because youre too bad to counter it....with 10 people. Theres such a thing as being outplayed,accept it or get better. Its clear that you have no experience playing thief but ask for nerfs about things you dont understand.

    the problem is here with the classes I play Even though I'm using all the cc skills How can these thieves escape? for example > ele focus air 5 ele water focus 4/5 revenant staff 5 warrior hammer all skill cc f1 etc How can they escape elsewhere within 1 second, even though we use such skills? If I were a new player np

    https://ibb.co/ncS4mL1 < sample picture I'm just wondering about this how can they get this far?
    Thank you sir

  • Sylvia.4870Sylvia.4870 Member ✭✭
    edited January 10, 2021

    @mrt.7813 said:

    @Caedmon.6798 said:
    3k range what skill ?
    shoTbow 5 needs to be added to what ?
    invis needs to be reduced why ?
    Keep.garri hiding cant be done since theres a radar after a cap.
    10 people run after One thief Why exactly ?

    Stop resorting to calling a spec with the C word because youre too bad to counter it....with 10 people. Theres such a thing as being outplayed,accept it or get better. Its clear that you have no experience playing thief but ask for nerfs about things you dont understand.

    the problem is here with the classes I play Even though I'm using all the cc skills How can these thieves escape? for example > ele focus air 5 ele water focus 4/5 revenant staff 5 warrior hammer all skill cc f1 etc How can they escape elsewhere within 1 second, even though we use such skills? If I were a new player np

    https://ibb.co/ncS4mL1 < sample picture I'm just wondering about this how can they get this far?
    Thank you sir

    There are few skills, which make the thief manage to travel from one spot to another ; Shadowstep(Utility skill: Range:1,200 units) with Shadow Return(Range:1,200 units) for going back to the original position one activated Shadowstep, Sword: the second skill, the Infiltrator's Strike(Range:900 units) with the Infiltrator's Return(Range:1,200 units), the Preparation skill, the Shadowy Portal(Range:5,000 units), Rifle: the fourth skill for jumping from one's current spot to another, Shortbow: the fifth skill, the Infiltrator's Arrow(Range:600 units). Signet of Infiltrator(Utility skill: Range:1,200 units), allowing one to forward to one's targetted foe or targetted neutral being.

    Note: Shadowstep(Utility skill) is one of the few skills , which allows the thief to get out from being stunned. Once it is used, it can be activated again with another in the limitted duration[10 seconds], Shadow Return to break stun and cleanse 3 conditions(whether they are types of condition damage or conditions ; crippling, immoblilizing, weakness, vulnerablility, taunted, feared, slow, chilling, blindness).

  • Caedmon.6798Caedmon.6798 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Sylvia.4870 said:

    @mrt.7813 said:

    @Caedmon.6798 said:
    3k range what skill ?
    shoTbow 5 needs to be added to what ?
    invis needs to be reduced why ?
    Keep.garri hiding cant be done since theres a radar after a cap.
    10 people run after One thief Why exactly ?

    Stop resorting to calling a spec with the C word because youre too bad to counter it....with 10 people. Theres such a thing as being outplayed,accept it or get better. Its clear that you have no experience playing thief but ask for nerfs about things you dont understand.

    the problem is here with the classes I play Even though I'm using all the cc skills How can these thieves escape? for example > ele focus air 5 ele water focus 4/5 revenant staff 5 warrior hammer all skill cc f1 etc How can they escape elsewhere within 1 second, even though we use such skills? If I were a new player np

    https://ibb.co/ncS4mL1 < sample picture I'm just wondering about this how can they get this far?
    Thank you sir

    There are few skills, which make the thief manage to travel from one spot to another ; Shadowstep(Utility skill: Range:1,200 units) with Shadow Return(Range:1,200 units) for going back to the original position one activated Shadowstep, Sword: the second skill, the Infiltrator's Strike(Range:1,200 units) with the Infiltrator's Return(Range:900 units), the Preparation skill, the Shadowy Portal(Range:5,000 units), Rifle: the fourth skill for jumping from one's current spot to another, Shortbow: the fifth skill, the Infiltrator's Arrow(Range:600 units). Signet of Infiltrator(Utility skill: Range:1,200 units), allowing one to forward to one's targetted foe or targetted neutral being.

    Note: Shadowstep(Utility skill) is one of the few skills , which allows the thief to get out from being stunned. Once it is used, it can be activated again with another in the limitted duration[10 seconds], Shadow Return to break stun and cleanse 3 conditions(whether they are types of condition damage or conditions ; crippling, immoblilizing, weakness, vulnerablility, taunted, feared, slow, chilling, blindness).

    This ^. Thats why its really helpful to either run thief yourself,not even to fight but to get an understanding of what they have available,the cd's theyre on and how much init it uses etc.

    @mrt.7813 The distance on the pic you show should only be possible by comboing all their mobility skills together.

  • kash.9213kash.9213 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 6, 2021

    @Caedmon.6798 said:

    @Sylvia.4870 said:

    @mrt.7813 said:

    @Caedmon.6798 said:
    3k range what skill ?
    shoTbow 5 needs to be added to what ?
    invis needs to be reduced why ?
    Keep.garri hiding cant be done since theres a radar after a cap.
    10 people run after One thief Why exactly ?

    Stop resorting to calling a spec with the C word because youre too bad to counter it....with 10 people. Theres such a thing as being outplayed,accept it or get better. Its clear that you have no experience playing thief but ask for nerfs about things you dont understand.

    the problem is here with the classes I play Even though I'm using all the cc skills How can these thieves escape? for example > ele focus air 5 ele water focus 4/5 revenant staff 5 warrior hammer all skill cc f1 etc How can they escape elsewhere within 1 second, even though we use such skills? If I were a new player np

    https://ibb.co/ncS4mL1 < sample picture I'm just wondering about this how can they get this far?
    Thank you sir

    There are few skills, which make the thief manage to travel from one spot to another ; Shadowstep(Utility skill: Range:1,200 units) with Shadow Return(Range:1,200 units) for going back to the original position one activated Shadowstep, Sword: the second skill, the Infiltrator's Strike(Range:1,200 units) with the Infiltrator's Return(Range:900 units), the Preparation skill, the Shadowy Portal(Range:5,000 units), Rifle: the fourth skill for jumping from one's current spot to another, Shortbow: the fifth skill, the Infiltrator's Arrow(Range:600 units). Signet of Infiltrator(Utility skill: Range:1,200 units), allowing one to forward to one's targetted foe or targetted neutral being.

    Note: Shadowstep(Utility skill) is one of the few skills , which allows the thief to get out from being stunned. Once it is used, it can be activated again with another in the limitted duration[10 seconds], Shadow Return to break stun and cleanse 3 conditions(whether they are types of condition damage or conditions ; crippling, immoblilizing, weakness, vulnerablility, taunted, feared, slow, chilling, blindness).

    This ^. Thats why its really helpful to either run thief yourself,not even to fight but to get an understanding of what they have available,the cd's theyre on and how much init it uses etc.

    @mrt.7813 The distance on the pic you show should only be possible by comboing all their mobility skills together.

    If you're a lazy thief like me it's a nice way to get to a camp and back to your tower for a supply run quickly if you stagger and drop one stage of those skills at the right spots along the way to roll it all back up for the return trip.

    Northern Shiverpeaks [EL] & [SD]

  • Justine.6351Justine.6351 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Maybe there should be a debuff for a short duration after using a teleport which reduces the range of the next teleport used. Sounds like a lot of work to implement though and I doubt it would change the mentality of a thief who chooses to run away from a fight they failed.

    Anet buff me :-(
    Make me good at game!

  • Sobx.1758Sobx.1758 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 6, 2021

    @mrt.7813 said:

    @Caedmon.6798 said:
    3k range what skill ?
    shoTbow 5 needs to be added to what ?
    invis needs to be reduced why ?
    Keep.garri hiding cant be done since theres a radar after a cap.
    10 people run after One thief Why exactly ?

    Stop resorting to calling a spec with the C word because youre too bad to counter it....with 10 people. Theres such a thing as being outplayed,accept it or get better. Its clear that you have no experience playing thief but ask for nerfs about things you dont understand.

    the problem is here with the classes I play Even though I'm using all the cc skills How can these thieves escape? for example > ele focus air 5 ele water focus 4/5 revenant staff 5 warrior hammer all skill cc f1 etc How can they escape elsewhere within 1 second, even though we use such skills? If I were a new player np

    Considering what you wrote in your first post, you really look like a new player regardless of your time ingame tbh. The main advice here would be probably: try playing the class to understand it, then complain about it.

    To be clear, I don't intend to somehow insult you by saying you look like a new player. What I mean is that it's mostly irrelevant if you're "new" or not when you don't understand what some of the classes do -and from your first post it just looks that you don't know the skills of some of the classes.

  • ASP.8093ASP.8093 Member ✭✭✭✭

    A lot of these complaints boil down to "5-10 of us can't CC-spam a thief to death because as soon as we start, the thief Shadowsteps away and then runs fast." There's no semblance of a fight here, just "give bag now."

  • anduriell.6280anduriell.6280 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 7, 2021

    @ASP.8093 said:
    A lot of these complaints boil down to "5-10 of us can't CC-spam a thief to death because as soon as we start, the thief Shadowsteps away and then runs fast." There's no semblance of a fight here, just "give bag now."

    Well no class should be able to disengage from 5-10 enemies after being CC'ed as the norm. most other classes would be done for and i have to admit the Thief is very forgiving in that regard.

    That's why everybody things thief is the ez class with no skill needed, if you mess up you have too many "oh kitten" buttons.

  • kash.9213kash.9213 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 7, 2021

    @anduriell.6280 said:

    @ASP.8093 said:
    A lot of these complaints boil down to "5-10 of us can't CC-spam a thief to death because as soon as we start, the thief Shadowsteps away and then runs fast." There's no semblance of a fight here, just "give bag now."

    Well no class should be able to disengage from 5-10 enemies after being CC'ed as the norm. most other classes would be done for and i have to admit the Thief is very forgiving in that regard.

    That's why everybody things thief is the ez class with no skill needed, if you mess up you have too many "oh kitten" buttons.

    Any class should be able to shake 5-10 people if they build for that instead of face planting blobs. Thief will explode faster than other classes and builds, rewarded risk isn't the same as being more forgiving. Very few thief builds have potential to be broken and they should be addressed, but don't try to make it sound like making any thief is some kind of inherent advantage.

    Northern Shiverpeaks [EL] & [SD]

  • ASP.8093ASP.8093 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 7, 2021

    @anduriell.6280 said:

    @ASP.8093 said:
    A lot of these complaints boil down to "5-10 of us can't CC-spam a thief to death because as soon as we start, the thief Shadowsteps away and then runs fast." There's no semblance of a fight here, just "give bag now."

    Well no class should be able to disengage from 5-10 enemies after being CC'ed as the norm. most other classes would be done for and i have to admit the Thief is very forgiving in that regard.

    That's why everybody things thief is the ez class with no skill needed, if you mess up you have too many "oh kitten" buttons.

    Unlike Stability and Invuln, you're just running away. It's situationally better when you're just trying to get out of some unwinnable gank situation but situationally worse when you're trying to actually move with your team and overpower the enemy. Which is how thieves end up as roamers, scouts, skirmishers.

    The relative value in a dueling situation is really contingent on whether resetting will cause you to lose an objective (in which case just being able to tank/sustain is usually more valuable) or you're just free to fish for favorable terrain and circumstances for days.

  • saerni.2584saerni.2584 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I'd say thief isn't unique in being able to run.

    Warrior and Soulbeast both have extremely survivable builds that can run fast, endure/evade a lot of damage, and in the Soulbeast example still set up a burst from 1200-1500 range.

    The complaint about thief isn't legitimate. If you can't keep up against a mobile target then stop chasing them. Focus on the objectives and targets you can kill.

    If the thief ends up chasing you, then you will have cut down both their damage and escape ability. So by not indulging in the chase you force them to decide whether to stick around.

    If you want to kill the thief absolutely no matter what having range burst helps stop a thief from running. Just position that burst in their escape path and keep firing. So does clouding to catch the thief. You should assume the thief has mobility and anticipate where they are going to move. You may be slower but you can be smarter.

    Northern Shiverpeaks (NSP)
    Deadeye (Thief)
    Commandant of P/D and Apex Predator

  • anduriell.6280anduriell.6280 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @saerni.2584 said:
    I'd say thief isn't unique in being able to run.

    Warrior and Soulbeast both have extremely survivable builds that can run fast, endure/evade a lot of damage, and in the Soulbeast example still set up a burst from 1200-1500 range.

    The complaint about thief isn't legitimate. If you can't keep up against a mobile target then stop chasing them. Focus on the objectives and targets you can kill.

    Well a Warrior or Soulbeast can not reset the fight at will. Or escape 5-10 enemies if they messed up.

    Which i can do as thief. My backstab missed or i didn't one shot? I teleport or go invisible. I get knocked down? I teleport or go invisible. I can even mount up while being invisible. I don't have any TPs left or access to stealth? I cast Dagger Storm .The class is extremely forgiving.

  • Sobx.1758Sobx.1758 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @anduriell.6280 said:

    @saerni.2584 said:
    I'd say thief isn't unique in being able to run.

    Warrior and Soulbeast both have extremely survivable builds that can run fast, endure/evade a lot of damage, and in the Soulbeast example still set up a burst from 1200-1500 range.

    The complaint about thief isn't legitimate. If you can't keep up against a mobile target then stop chasing them. Focus on the objectives and targets you can kill.

    Well a Warrior or Soulbeast can not reset the fight at will. Or escape 5-10 enemies if they messed up.

    Which i can do as thief. My backstab missed or i didn't one shot? I teleport or go invisible. I get knocked down? I teleport or go invisible. I can even mount up while being invisible. I don't have any TPs left or access to stealth? I cast Dagger Storm .The class is extremely forgiving.

    Well, have fun running away as your preferred playstyle then.

  • Moradorin.6217Moradorin.6217 Member ✭✭✭

    @Sylvia.4870 said:

    @mrt.7813 said:
    Hello friends

    I've been playing since 2013 This is lately the thieves got into the game

    How is it logic to fly 3000 range using a skill?
    shotbow 5 time needs to be added
    invisibility times need to be reduced
    Keep / Gari Hiding Members Always non-stop.
    10 people run after a thief now it has become cancer-like I do not understand
    what should we players do? I push logical explanation Regulations must come to thieves.

    we know the logic for thief but not that much When it comes 2 3, it goes out of range in 1 2 seconds no class like this If you run away and recover, dive behind you in 1 or 2 seconds and make waves, the crime here is in the areanenet team.

    10 people run after a thief now it has become cancer-like I do not understand
    what should we players do? I push logical explanation Regulations must come to thieves. we eventually have to swear or insult the games!

    Best regards

    Reduce the time for being in stealth? Want to cancel it? Use a tool, which causes the 'Revealed' debuff to them or use any skills that make them unable to enter stealth for a moment(Ranger, Revenant, Dragonhunter, Holosmith can counter the ones who use stealth well). Don't chase them if they desire to retreat to any friendly objectives of theirs. Want to lock them down? Use pulling skills, immobilizing skills, daze, knockdown, make them float into the air, make them stunned in one spot where they stand and use every main sources of damage you have to take them down. That's it. They will have no chances to run and fall down for real. You must time all of the skills on them accordingly and make sure they have no other utility skills and elite skills left to use against you. Good hunting, sir!

    not every class has access to revealed

  • Sobx.1758Sobx.1758 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Moradorin.6217 said:

    @Sylvia.4870 said:

    @mrt.7813 said:
    Hello friends

    I've been playing since 2013 This is lately the thieves got into the game

    How is it logic to fly 3000 range using a skill?
    shotbow 5 time needs to be added
    invisibility times need to be reduced
    Keep / Gari Hiding Members Always non-stop.
    10 people run after a thief now it has become cancer-like I do not understand
    what should we players do? I push logical explanation Regulations must come to thieves.

    we know the logic for thief but not that much When it comes 2 3, it goes out of range in 1 2 seconds no class like this If you run away and recover, dive behind you in 1 or 2 seconds and make waves, the crime here is in the areanenet team.

    10 people run after a thief now it has become cancer-like I do not understand
    what should we players do? I push logical explanation Regulations must come to thieves. we eventually have to swear or insult the games!

    Best regards

    Reduce the time for being in stealth? Want to cancel it? Use a tool, which causes the 'Revealed' debuff to them or use any skills that make them unable to enter stealth for a moment(Ranger, Revenant, Dragonhunter, Holosmith can counter the ones who use stealth well). Don't chase them if they desire to retreat to any friendly objectives of theirs. Want to lock them down? Use pulling skills, immobilizing skills, daze, knockdown, make them float into the air, make them stunned in one spot where they stand and use every main sources of damage you have to take them down. That's it. They will have no chances to run and fall down for real. You must time all of the skills on them accordingly and make sure they have no other utility skills and elite skills left to use against you. Good hunting, sir!

    not every class has access to revealed

    In wvw every class does though.

  • Jugglemonkey.8741Jugglemonkey.8741 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @anduriell.6280 said:

    @ASP.8093 said:
    A lot of these complaints boil down to "5-10 of us can't CC-spam a thief to death because as soon as we start, the thief Shadowsteps away and then runs fast." There's no semblance of a fight here, just "give bag now."

    Well no class should be able to disengage from 5-10 enemies after being CC'ed as the norm. most other classes would be done for and i have to admit the Thief is very forgiving in that regard.

    That's why everybody things thief is the ez class with no skill needed, if you mess up you have too many "oh kitten" buttons.

    I've said several times, the only thing a thief can do to annoy people more than permastealth does is to use little stealth and still not die. It shows up the opponents then.

    Critical Kit, Deadeye.
    “If you find yourself in a fair fight, your tactics suck.” - John Steinbeck

  • Jugglemonkey.8741Jugglemonkey.8741 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @anduriell.6280 said:

    @saerni.2584 said:
    I'd say thief isn't unique in being able to run.

    Warrior and Soulbeast both have extremely survivable builds that can run fast, endure/evade a lot of damage, and in the Soulbeast example still set up a burst from 1200-1500 range.

    The complaint about thief isn't legitimate. If you can't keep up against a mobile target then stop chasing them. Focus on the objectives and targets you can kill.

    Well a Warrior or Soulbeast can not reset the fight at will. Or escape 5-10 enemies if they messed up.

    Which i can do as thief. My backstab missed or i didn't one shot? I teleport or go invisible. I get knocked down? I teleport or go invisible. I can even mount up while being invisible. I don't have any TPs left or access to stealth? I cast Dagger Storm .The class is extremely forgiving.

    @anduriell.6280 said:

    @saerni.2584 said:
    I'd say thief isn't unique in being able to run.

    Warrior and Soulbeast both have extremely survivable builds that can run fast, endure/evade a lot of damage, and in the Soulbeast example still set up a burst from 1200-1500 range.

    The complaint about thief isn't legitimate. If you can't keep up against a mobile target then stop chasing them. Focus on the objectives and targets you can kill.

    Well a Warrior or Soulbeast can not reset the fight at will. Or escape 5-10 enemies if they messed up.

    Which i can do as thief. My backstab missed or i didn't one shot? I teleport or go invisible. I get knocked down? I teleport or go invisible. I can even mount up while being invisible. I don't have any TPs left or access to stealth? I cast Dagger Storm .The class is extremely forgiving.

    A bad soulbeast might not be able to, but a good soulbeast certainly can

    Critical Kit, Deadeye.
    “If you find yourself in a fair fight, your tactics suck.” - John Steinbeck

  • Sylvia.4870Sylvia.4870 Member ✭✭
    edited January 10, 2021

    @Moradorin.6217 said:

    @Sylvia.4870 said:

    @mrt.7813 said:
    Hello friends

    I've been playing since 2013 This is lately the thieves got into the game

    How is it logic to fly 3000 range using a skill?
    shotbow 5 time needs to be added
    invisibility times need to be reduced
    Keep / Gari Hiding Members Always non-stop.
    10 people run after a thief now it has become cancer-like I do not understand
    what should we players do? I push logical explanation Regulations must come to thieves.

    we know the logic for thief but not that much When it comes 2 3, it goes out of range in 1 2 seconds no class like this If you run away and recover, dive behind you in 1 or 2 seconds and make waves, the crime here is in the areanenet team.

    10 people run after a thief now it has become cancer-like I do not understand
    what should we players do? I push logical explanation Regulations must come to thieves. we eventually have to swear or insult the games!

    Best regards

    Reduce the time for being in stealth? Want to cancel it? Use a tool, which causes the 'Revealed' debuff to them or use any skills that make them unable to enter stealth for a moment(Ranger, Revenant, Dragonhunter, Holosmith can counter the ones who use stealth well). Don't chase them if they desire to retreat to any friendly objectives of theirs. Want to lock them down? Use pulling skills, immobilizing skills, daze, knockdown, make them float into the air, make them stunned in one spot where they stand and use every main sources of damage you have to take them down. That's it. They will have no chances to run and fall down for real. You must time all of the skills on them accordingly and make sure they have no other utility skills and elite skills left to use against you. Good hunting, sir!

    not every class has access to revealed

    I know not all of the classes have the skills to reveal those who enter stealth. In World versus World mode, there is an item from siege weapon vendors makes one able to reveal those who are in stealth within a certain area(where a foe has been recently in stealth with Shadow Refuge, Smokescreen, Blackpowder or the fifth skill of the pistol in the off-hand of the Thief profession for combining with Heartseeker to access stealth).

  • saerni.2584saerni.2584 Member ✭✭✭✭

    One shot BS is very uncommon these days. Unless vs glass or uplevels. Which shouldn't be considered balance wise.

    Northern Shiverpeaks (NSP)
    Deadeye (Thief)
    Commandant of P/D and Apex Predator

  • Virdo.1540Virdo.1540 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Thief with its stealth & ports need the pvp-treatment. Its perfectly fine.

    Or they need to rework "revealed" completely & make it not being cleansed by deadeye

  • Sobx.1758Sobx.1758 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 8, 2021

    ^Condi herald didn't win against something, so that something needs to get nerfed now btw :mrgreen:

  • Yasai.3549Yasai.3549 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Thieves are the apex predator of small scale and Roaming, that's their niche, that's their role.
    Either accept it or join them and play Thief too.

    No guarantees yu will do well on Thief though, usually those Thieves giving people alot of problems are ones which have been playing Thieves for very very very long time.

    Similarly, a Thief is utter dogdoodoo when it comes to Zerg combat and they instantly explode, even Frontline "dps Staff DD" builds are extremely fragile in Zerg combat.

    If I play a stupid build, I deserve to die.
    If I beat people on a stupid build, I deserve to get away with it.

  • anduriell.6280anduriell.6280 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Yasai.3549 said:
    Thieves are the apex predator of small scale and Roaming, that's their niche, that's their role.
    Either accept it or join them and play Thief too.

    No guarantees yu will do well on Thief though, usually those Thieves giving people alot of problems are ones which have been playing Thieves for very very very long time.

    Similarly, a Thief is utter dogdoodoo when it comes to Zerg combat and they instantly explode, even Frontline "dps Staff DD" builds are extremely fragile in Zerg combat.

    Thief is the most forgiving class in game, too many “instaSaved” buttons with stealth, evades and teleports.
    Also does an immense damage burst.

    I agree PvP balance should be applied to wvw, it would make a healthier gamemode.

  • Trianox.3486Trianox.3486 Member ✭✭✭

    Thief damage burst are often very one trick-poney most of the time.

    And insta save buttons with stealth isn't really useful in zerg.
    Even tho evades allow to evade unlimited hits, that sort of active defense is weak in the context of zerg play again as outside of those evade frame you are very frail with most builds, and don't have many damage reduction perks allowing to take some of the inevitable incoming hits.

    But otherwise, yes thief is a great class for many reasons as well.

  • Sylvia.4870Sylvia.4870 Member ✭✭
    edited January 10, 2021

    @anduriell.6280 said:

    @Yasai.3549 said:
    Thieves are the apex predator of small scale and Roaming, that's their niche, that's their role.
    Either accept it or join them and play Thief too.

    No guarantees yu will do well on Thief though, usually those Thieves giving people alot of problems are ones which have been playing Thieves for very very very long time.

    Similarly, a Thief is utter dogdoodoo when it comes to Zerg combat and they instantly explode, even Frontline "dps Staff DD" builds are extremely fragile in Zerg combat.

    Thief is the most forgiving class in game, too many “instaSaved” buttons with stealth, evades and teleports.
    Also does an immense damage burst.

    I agree PvP balance should be applied to wvw, it would make a healthier gamemode.

    Even if the Thief can do a lot of damage, the Thief doesn't have much toughness. It is not strange that the Thief is light. Too many ''Instasaved'' buttons with stealth, evasiveness and teleportation? With1 Healing skill slot, 3 Utility skill slots, 1 Elite skill slot and 5 weapon skil slots? I don't think so. One or a few wrong moves, the Thief will fall down.

  • Yasai.3549Yasai.3549 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Virdo.1540 said:
    Thief with its stealth & ports need the pvp-treatment. Its perfectly fine.

    Or they need to rework "revealed" completely & make it not being cleansed by deadeye

    I think it's a design flaw at the end of the day.
    The reason Shadow Meld removes Revealed was because DE needed something to make up for DJ applying Revealed to themselves and during that duration, they can't DJ again, which would hurt PvE a little.

    I think they should change it from Revealed removal to triggering DJ while in any state with a small damage bonus.
    It's also fair for other players : If the DE tries to DJ while unstealthed, they are definitely gonna get punished for it.

    I've already suggested before for Shadow Meld to be reworked from a Revealed removal + Stealth to something which is more Sniper-like, like loading a special killing shot.
    Also let's be real : DEs aren't really snipers, they spam their shots way too much to be Snipers.

    If it were me, I would rework how DE and DJ works, along with Deadeye Mark.

    • Make Damage skills on enemies just generate Malice.
    • Deadeye Mark skill will prime the next Stealth attack to do higher damage and consume Malice
    • Hitting the target with the Stealth attack will apply Steal effects as well
    • normal Stealth attacks recharge the Deadeye Mark

    If I play a stupid build, I deserve to die.
    If I beat people on a stupid build, I deserve to get away with it.

  • Jugglemonkey.8741Jugglemonkey.8741 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Yasai.3549 said:

    @Virdo.1540 said:
    Thief with its stealth & ports need the pvp-treatment. Its perfectly fine.

    Or they need to rework "revealed" completely & make it not being cleansed by deadeye

    I think it's a design flaw at the end of the day.
    The reason Shadow Meld removes Revealed was because DE needed something to make up for DJ applying Revealed to themselves and during that duration, they can't DJ again, which would hurt PvE a little.

    I think they should change it from Revealed removal to triggering DJ while in any state with a small damage bonus.
    It's also fair for other players : If the DE tries to DJ while unstealthed, they are definitely gonna get punished for it.

    I've already suggested before for Shadow Meld to be reworked from a Revealed removal + Stealth to something which is more Sniper-like, like loading a special killing shot.
    Also let's be real : DEs aren't really snipers, they spam their shots way too much to be Snipers.

    If it were me, I would rework how DE and DJ works, along with Deadeye Mark.

    • Make Damage skills on enemies just generate Malice.
    • Deadeye Mark skill will prime the next Stealth attack to do higher damage and consume Malice
    • Hitting the target with the Stealth attack will apply Steal effects as well
    • normal Stealth attacks recharge the Deadeye Mark

    No offence, but that would make malicious backstab insanely OP if sleight of hand, bountiful theft and mug all went off when it hit. There would also be virtually no reason to use mark if the damage on the non-mark boosted sneak attacks was sufficient, and if you needed to mark in order to do enough damage to kill something it just forces people to run more one trick pony builds. This is unless mark still applied steal traited effects of course, which again would be a straight up buff if the sneak attack applies them too.

    Critical Kit, Deadeye.
    “If you find yourself in a fair fight, your tactics suck.” - John Steinbeck

  • Yasai.3549Yasai.3549 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Jugglemonkey.8741 said:

    No offence, but that would make malicious backstab insanely OP if sleight of hand, bountiful theft and mug all went off when it hit. There would also be virtually no reason to use mark if the damage on the non-mark boosted sneak attacks was sufficient, and if you needed to mark in order to do enough damage to kill something it just forces people to run more one trick pony builds. This is unless mark still applied steal traited effects of course, which again would be a straight up buff if the sneak attack applies them too.

    The idea is to turn their "Steal" into a manual function, applied through an extremely strong Stealth Attack.

    Deadeye Mark will become more like "Loading a Bullet"

    It will turn the next Stealth Attack into Malicious Stealth Attack and apply Steal effects IF IT HITS

    If anything, this is more of a function nerf and it doesn't let Deadeyes have an "ez" button that applies like 7 effects without even putting them into danger melee range.

    The "mark" will no longer mark at all, and Malice will only consume when used on a primed Stealth Attack.

    So if they missed their Malicious Stealth Attack, boo hoo hoo.

    Will it make DEs try to go for 1 shot cheese builds again?

    Yes. I'm counting on it.
    Snipers should be aiming to deal a bulk of their damage in a single important shot anyway, and not spamming Spotters and 2k damage autos.

    And if they missed their important shot?
    They are punished by not having access to it for awhile and need to reposition to avoid retaliation.

    If I play a stupid build, I deserve to die.
    If I beat people on a stupid build, I deserve to get away with it.

  • @mrt.7813 said:

    @Caedmon.6798 said:
    3k range what skill ?
    shoTbow 5 needs to be added to what ?
    invis needs to be reduced why ?
    Keep.garri hiding cant be done since theres a radar after a cap.
    10 people run after One thief Why exactly ?

    Stop resorting to calling a spec with the C word because youre too bad to counter it....with 10 people. Theres such a thing as being outplayed,accept it or get better. Its clear that you have no experience playing thief but ask for nerfs about things you dont understand.

    the problem is here with the classes I play Even though I'm using all the cc skills How can these thieves escape? for example > ele focus air 5 ele water focus 4/5 revenant staff 5 warrior hammer all skill cc f1 etc How can they escape elsewhere within 1 second, even though we use such skills? If I were a new player np

    https://ibb.co/ncS4mL1 < sample picture I'm just wondering about this how can they get this far?
    Thank you sir

    part of your problem is the fact you're running Jalis. Run Shiro and you can at least try to keep up. Also Staff 5 is a horrible CC to use on thieves; don't even try

  • anduriell.6280anduriell.6280 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Sylvia.4870 said:
    Even if the Thief can do a lot of damage, the Thief doesn't have much toughness. It is not strange that the Thief is light. Too many ''Instasaved'' buttons with stealth, evasiveness and teleportation? With1 Healing skill slot, 3 Utility skill slots, 1 Elite skill slot and 5 weapon skil slots? I don't think so. One or a few wrong moves, the Thief will fall down.

    So the the same as everybody else. Armor rating has the same as any other medium armor class (engineer and ranger) . Add to that no cooldown on weapon skills, easy access to stealth and teleports and there you have the "i'm saved" buttons.

    At any point i can make myself invisible and then watch the enemy play a guessing game.

  • Solanum.6983Solanum.6983 Member ✭✭✭

    I get the frustration but that's what makes Thief a Thief.
    If you take away keep/tower portal and reduce stealth time/mobility then you end up with a squishy class that can barely help in group fights and has it's roaming potential gutted. It'd need some serious buffs to compensate.

  • anduriell.6280anduriell.6280 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 11, 2021

    @Solanum.6983 said:
    I get the frustration but that's what makes Thief a Thief.
    If you take away keep/tower portal and reduce stealth time/mobility then you end up with a squishy class that can barely help in group fights and has it's roaming potential gutted. It'd need some serious buffs to compensate.

    Agreed, from my point of view stealth is the issue here not the thief. Stealth given to another class (looking at Druid or DH ) shows the lack of counter play against that mechanic.

    I would not touch mobility or damage from Thief i think is fine for the moment, i would rework how stealth works so others don't need to buy bundles from the merchant to fight a core mechanic.

  • Fat Disgrace.4275Fat Disgrace.4275 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @anduriell.6280 said:

    @saerni.2584 said:
    I'd say thief isn't unique in being able to run.

    Warrior and Soulbeast both have extremely survivable builds that can run fast, endure/evade a lot of damage, and in the Soulbeast example still set up a burst from 1200-1500 range.

    The complaint about thief isn't legitimate. If you can't keep up against a mobile target then stop chasing them. Focus on the objectives and targets you can kill.

    Well a Warrior or Soulbeast can not reset the fight at will. Or escape 5-10 enemies if they messed up.

    Which i can do as thief. My backstab missed or i didn't one shot? I teleport or go invisible. I get knocked down? I teleport or go invisible. I can even mount up while being invisible. I don't have any TPs left or access to stealth? I cast Dagger Storm .The class is extremely forgiving.

    War/ranger/holo/scrapper/ele/rev and roaming guard can all easily escape 10 people. Also they can actually take a fair few hits too while thief cant really.

  • anduriell.6280anduriell.6280 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 12, 2021

    @Fat Disgrace.4275 said:
    War/ranger/holo/scrapper/ele/rev and roaming guard can all easily escape 10 people. Also they can actually take a fair few hits too while thief cant really.

    Maybe in NA that is the case i don't know. In EU if you get in the middle as melee range of those 10 peeps you will have very little chance of successfully escape unless there is a tower close by. Assuming they also have a ranger/thief/mesmer.

    Unless you are thief simply because of the invisibility on demand. Discussing this further is a no sense.

  • Fat Disgrace.4275Fat Disgrace.4275 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @anduriell.6280 said:

    @Fat Disgrace.4275 said:
    War/ranger/holo/scrapper/ele/rev and roaming guard can all easily escape 10 people. Also they can actually take a fair few hits too while thief cant really.

    Maybe in NA that is the case i don't know. In EU if you get in the middle as melee range of those 10 peeps you will have very little chance of successfully escape unless there is a tower close by. Assuming they also have a ranger/thief/mesmer.

    Unless you are thief simply because of the invisibility on demand. Discussing this further is a no sense.

    Nah, eu. Yes you're right though. Most of the classes I said will only get so far but they can still get away far enough normally either to some form of sanctuary or to friends. I'd say war has it the hardest since they can only use running/leap skills and can be interrupted where as all others have either stealth or instant port skills.

  • Jugglemonkey.8741Jugglemonkey.8741 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Different classes do different things. If I brought a roaming class to a raid, you'd tell me I was playing the wrong class for that content and I need to L2P. So when people bring raid classes to roaming, is it any surprise that the roaming classes run rings around them?

    Critical Kit, Deadeye.
    “If you find yourself in a fair fight, your tactics suck.” - John Steinbeck

  • Jugglemonkey.8741Jugglemonkey.8741 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 12, 2021

    @Yasai.3549 said:

    @Jugglemonkey.8741 said:

    No offence, but that would make malicious backstab insanely OP if sleight of hand, bountiful theft and mug all went off when it hit. There would also be virtually no reason to use mark if the damage on the non-mark boosted sneak attacks was sufficient, and if you needed to mark in order to do enough damage to kill something it just forces people to run more one trick pony builds. This is unless mark still applied steal traited effects of course, which again would be a straight up buff if the sneak attack applies them too.

    The idea is to turn their "Steal" into a manual function, applied through an extremely strong Stealth Attack.

    Deadeye Mark will become more like "Loading a Bullet"

    It will turn the next Stealth Attack into Malicious Stealth Attack and apply Steal effects IF IT HITS

    If anything, this is more of a function nerf and it doesn't let Deadeyes have an "ez" button that applies like 7 effects without even putting them into danger melee range.

    The "mark" will no longer mark at all, and Malice will only consume when used on a primed Stealth Attack.

    So if they missed their Malicious Stealth Attack, boo hoo hoo.

    Will it make DEs try to go for 1 shot cheese builds again?

    Yes. I'm counting on it.
    Snipers should be aiming to deal a bulk of their damage in a single important shot anyway, and not spamming Spotters and 2k damage autos.

    And if they missed their important shot?
    They are punished by not having access to it for awhile and need to reposition to avoid retaliation.

    Honestly, all of this would make next to no difference, and require substantial reworks in the process. The thing that killed malicious backstab as a build was the introduction of mounts combined with the damage nerf in the Feb 2020 patch; you can't one shot a guy who's mounted because excessive damage to the mount does not overflow into the player's health (it's rather like throwing your 25K backstab into 5k of necro shroud, it ain't gonna work), and if the player is dismounted you no longer have the damage to one shot the majority of builds whether you build malice or not.

    So unless you're going to suggest a mechanic that bypasses the mount health and strikes a player's health directly, or that simply does enough damage to overpower the opponent in one shot, it will achieve nothing. And even if it did, frankly, the way DE burst before the Feb patch was plain unhealthy for the game, I don't really want to see a return to that. I'd rather see a more useful set of rifle 2 and 3 skills so that spamming standing rifle 2 for malice isn't always the best choice, and so the 3 skills aren't damage dealers, but so they do something else that sets up the opponent for the spike. That would make DE gameplay far less spammy while not overpowering or breaking it in the process.

    Critical Kit, Deadeye.
    “If you find yourself in a fair fight, your tactics suck.” - John Steinbeck

  • Yasai.3549Yasai.3549 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Jugglemonkey.8741 said:

    So unless you're going to suggest a mechanic that bypasses the mount health and strikes a player's health directly, or that simply does enough damage to overpower the opponent in one shot, it will achieve nothing. And even if it did, frankly, the way DE burst before the Feb patch was plain unhealthy for the game, I don't really want to see a return to that. I'd rather see a more useful set of rifle 2 and 3 skills so that spamming standing rifle 2 for malice isn't always the best choice, and so the 3 skills aren't damage dealers, but so they do something else that sets up the opponent for the spike. That would make DE gameplay far less spammy while not overpowering or breaking it in the process.

    I blame Ini mechanic and Malice mechanic combined for creating a "spammy" identity for DE.
    Malice is essential for a DE to deal their "sniper's shot" with DJ, and Ini is basically a cooldown bypass which facilitates Malice generation.

    All of this just creates a "Sniper" with a bottomless clip which shoots really fast and deals high damage.

    Also, I think that DEs in general need to be forced into Kneel for high damage.
    It's a mechanic provided, but it endangers the DE often.

    I actually kinda miss the risk back when DE has to kneel in order to use DJ.
    The idea is to run around without Kneel and build malice, flank the opponent with a Kneel and open a DJ on them.

    If I play a stupid build, I deserve to die.
    If I beat people on a stupid build, I deserve to get away with it.

  • Psycoprophet.8107Psycoprophet.8107 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Jugglemonkey.8741 said:

    @Yasai.3549 said:

    @Jugglemonkey.8741 said:

    No offence, but that would make malicious backstab insanely OP if sleight of hand, bountiful theft and mug all went off when it hit. There would also be virtually no reason to use mark if the damage on the non-mark boosted sneak attacks was sufficient, and if you needed to mark in order to do enough damage to kill something it just forces people to run more one trick pony builds. This is unless mark still applied steal traited effects of course, which again would be a straight up buff if the sneak attack applies them too.

    The idea is to turn their "Steal" into a manual function, applied through an extremely strong Stealth Attack.

    Deadeye Mark will become more like "Loading a Bullet"

    It will turn the next Stealth Attack into Malicious Stealth Attack and apply Steal effects IF IT HITS

    If anything, this is more of a function nerf and it doesn't let Deadeyes have an "ez" button that applies like 7 effects without even putting them into danger melee range.

    The "mark" will no longer mark at all, and Malice will only consume when used on a primed Stealth Attack.

    So if they missed their Malicious Stealth Attack, boo hoo hoo.

    Will it make DEs try to go for 1 shot cheese builds again?

    Yes. I'm counting on it.
    Snipers should be aiming to deal a bulk of their damage in a single important shot anyway, and not spamming Spotters and 2k damage autos.

    And if they missed their important shot?
    They are punished by not having access to it for awhile and need to reposition to avoid retaliation.

    Honestly, all of this would make next to no difference, and require substantial reworks in the process. The thing that killed malicious backstab as a build was the introduction of mounts combined with the damage nerf in the Feb 2020 patch; you can't one shot a guy who's mounted because excessive damage to the mount does not overflow into the player's health (it's rather like throwing your 25K backstab into 5k of necro shroud, it ain't gonna work), and if the player is dismounted you no longer have the damage to one shot the majority of builds whether you build malice or not.

    So unless you're going to suggest a mechanic that bypasses the mount health and strikes a player's health directly, or that simply does enough damage to overpower the opponent in one shot, it will achieve nothing. And even if it did, frankly, the way DE burst before the Feb patch was plain unhealthy for the game, I don't really want to see a return to that. I'd rather see a more useful set of rifle 2 and 3 skills so that spamming standing rifle 2 for malice isn't always the best choice, and so the 3 skills aren't damage dealers, but so they do something else that sets up the opponent for the spike. That would make DE gameplay far less spammy while not overpowering or breaking it in the process.

    This^ regarding DE especially. That said thief needs a buff in spike damage on its kits considering its hit and run design. A class like thier needs to hit hard and fast so if it needs to run if pressured than atleast the hits it got off were significant. Unless it gets sustain buffs it needs its active defences and disengage potential intact or it's a free bag.
    I dont understanding why gw2 pvp community had such a issue understanding the concept of a hit and run class, it's what all rogue likes are in mmo. Look at eso for example and ull notice nightblade is top burst class, wow subtlety is top burst class, shadow dancer in archeage or ninja in bdo on and on yet gw2 thief doesn't burst any higher than tanks or jack of all trades builds lmao seriously. Anet seemed like they new what the rogue like class design is about and that it's a class that in every mmo gets hated on by their design but all mmos have them yet over last couple yes they have listened far to much to thief hating and has allowed it to dictate them destroying the class.

  • kash.9213kash.9213 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Yasai.3549 said:

    @Jugglemonkey.8741 said:

    So unless you're going to suggest a mechanic that bypasses the mount health and strikes a player's health directly, or that simply does enough damage to overpower the opponent in one shot, it will achieve nothing. And even if it did, frankly, the way DE burst before the Feb patch was plain unhealthy for the game, I don't really want to see a return to that. I'd rather see a more useful set of rifle 2 and 3 skills so that spamming standing rifle 2 for malice isn't always the best choice, and so the 3 skills aren't damage dealers, but so they do something else that sets up the opponent for the spike. That would make DE gameplay far less spammy while not overpowering or breaking it in the process.

    I blame Ini mechanic and Malice mechanic combined for creating a "spammy" identity for DE.
    Malice is essential for a DE to deal their "sniper's shot" with DJ, and Ini is basically a cooldown bypass which facilitates Malice generation.

    All of this just creates a "Sniper" with a bottomless clip which shoots really fast and deals high damage.

    Also, I think that DEs in general need to be forced into Kneel for high damage.
    It's a mechanic provided, but it endangers the DE often.

    I actually kinda miss the risk back when DE has to kneel in order to use DJ.
    The idea is to run around without Kneel and build malice, flank the opponent with a Kneel and open a DJ on them.

    There does need to be a shift away from spray and pray to build malice and stealth scramble with Meld and whatever, DE has kind of turned from Rainbow Six to Fortnite. I had suggested before maybe turning Kneel into Crouch for very slow movement but can still settle in to a spot with enhanced skill modes like Kneel does right now. Then We could get an Elite that sets up a small radius of stuff to cover us while we're posting up for better shots. Or the Elite can be a heavier shot that we can load up and hitting it again fires so we can set up something smarter (even it's its more utility and modifiers to open a target up) instead of having to chase someone around trying to tag them for malice only to have to try to get off a DJ right away before the Marked target disappears.

    Northern Shiverpeaks [EL] & [SD]

  • Jugglemonkey.8741Jugglemonkey.8741 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 14, 2021

    @Yasai.3549 said:

    @Jugglemonkey.8741 said:

    So unless you're going to suggest a mechanic that bypasses the mount health and strikes a player's health directly, or that simply does enough damage to overpower the opponent in one shot, it will achieve nothing. And even if it did, frankly, the way DE burst before the Feb patch was plain unhealthy for the game, I don't really want to see a return to that. I'd rather see a more useful set of rifle 2 and 3 skills so that spamming standing rifle 2 for malice isn't always the best choice, and so the 3 skills aren't damage dealers, but so they do something else that sets up the opponent for the spike. That would make DE gameplay far less spammy while not overpowering or breaking it in the process.

    I blame Ini mechanic and Malice mechanic combined for creating a "spammy" identity for DE.
    Malice is essential for a DE to deal their "sniper's shot" with DJ, and Ini is basically a cooldown bypass which facilitates Malice generation.

    All of this just creates a "Sniper" with a bottomless clip which shoots really fast and deals high damage.

    Also, I think that DEs in general need to be forced into Kneel for high damage.
    It's a mechanic provided, but it endangers the DE often.

    I actually kinda miss the risk back when DE has to kneel in order to use DJ.
    The idea is to run around without Kneel and build malice, flank the opponent with a Kneel and open a DJ on them.

    Thing is, I actually like that the high damage skill is gated behind malice generation. It means the other guy is well aware of your presence before the high damage shot comes, which is healthy given how much damage that thing can do. There are still plenty of skills that can burst hard on thief, but I'm actually glad the old malicious backstab build isn't a thing anymore. I'm not saying there isn't room for improvement; spamming one skill because nothing else builds malice sufficiently is not great and I agree that kneel should be a high risk high reward kind of thing. They could start just by reworking the 3 skill on both standing and kneeling; it's not useful in PvP or WvW in any way shape or form.

    @Psycoprophet.8107 said:

    @Jugglemonkey.8741 said:

    @Yasai.3549 said:

    @Jugglemonkey.8741 said:

    No offence, but that would make malicious backstab insanely OP if sleight of hand, bountiful theft and mug all went off when it hit. There would also be virtually no reason to use mark if the damage on the non-mark boosted sneak attacks was sufficient, and if you needed to mark in order to do enough damage to kill something it just forces people to run more one trick pony builds. This is unless mark still applied steal traited effects of course, which again would be a straight up buff if the sneak attack applies them too.

    The idea is to turn their "Steal" into a manual function, applied through an extremely strong Stealth Attack.

    Deadeye Mark will become more like "Loading a Bullet"

    It will turn the next Stealth Attack into Malicious Stealth Attack and apply Steal effects IF IT HITS

    If anything, this is more of a function nerf and it doesn't let Deadeyes have an "ez" button that applies like 7 effects without even putting them into danger melee range.

    The "mark" will no longer mark at all, and Malice will only consume when used on a primed Stealth Attack.

    So if they missed their Malicious Stealth Attack, boo hoo hoo.

    Will it make DEs try to go for 1 shot cheese builds again?

    Yes. I'm counting on it.
    Snipers should be aiming to deal a bulk of their damage in a single important shot anyway, and not spamming Spotters and 2k damage autos.

    And if they missed their important shot?
    They are punished by not having access to it for awhile and need to reposition to avoid retaliation.

    Honestly, all of this would make next to no difference, and require substantial reworks in the process. The thing that killed malicious backstab as a build was the introduction of mounts combined with the damage nerf in the Feb 2020 patch; you can't one shot a guy who's mounted because excessive damage to the mount does not overflow into the player's health (it's rather like throwing your 25K backstab into 5k of necro shroud, it ain't gonna work), and if the player is dismounted you no longer have the damage to one shot the majority of builds whether you build malice or not.

    So unless you're going to suggest a mechanic that bypasses the mount health and strikes a player's health directly, or that simply does enough damage to overpower the opponent in one shot, it will achieve nothing. And even if it did, frankly, the way DE burst before the Feb patch was plain unhealthy for the game, I don't really want to see a return to that. I'd rather see a more useful set of rifle 2 and 3 skills so that spamming standing rifle 2 for malice isn't always the best choice, and so the 3 skills aren't damage dealers, but so they do something else that sets up the opponent for the spike. That would make DE gameplay far less spammy while not overpowering or breaking it in the process.

    This^ regarding DE especially. That said thief needs a buff in spike damage on its kits considering its hit and run design. A class like thier needs to hit hard and fast so if it needs to run if pressured than atleast the hits it got off were significant. Unless it gets sustain buffs it needs its active defences and disengage potential intact or it's a free bag.
    I dont understanding why gw2 pvp community had such a issue understanding the concept of a hit and run class, it's what all rogue likes are in mmo. Look at eso for example and ull notice nightblade is top burst class, wow subtlety is top burst class, shadow dancer in archeage or ninja in bdo on and on yet gw2 thief doesn't burst any higher than tanks or jack of all trades builds lmao seriously. Anet seemed like they new what the rogue like class design is about and that it's a class that in every mmo gets hated on by their design but all mmos have them yet over last couple yes they have listened far to much to thief hating and has allowed it to dictate them destroying the class.

    I don't know, I feel like thief has plenty of damage already, at least in WvW. I hit a reaper for 15k using vault the other night, I had assassin signet on the bar but not popped and no bloodlust stacks. My power P/D DE can get 8-12k sneak attacks off pistol into 7-9k shadow strikes without needing to build malice, and I've been hit with a 17k malicious backstab in the last couple of months (he was D/D, he marked then opened with cloak and dagger followed by a 17k three malice backstab, I've been trying to replicate that damage but I find D/D quite fiddly to play). What we don't have now is that kind of damage on more defensive gear sets/specs or while using dura runes etc, which is actually good IMO as if you want to do that kind of damage for an opener you ought to be glassy yourself.

    What really needs a change IMO is the level of sustain needs to be brought down for all classes, it's stupid that you can build full glass and still have things shrug off your damage. Do that then change leaps in smoke fields to blind on hit (or even better, make smoke fields no longer stealth anything) so permastealth engages aren't a thing, and then we can talk about buffs.

    Critical Kit, Deadeye.
    “If you find yourself in a fair fight, your tactics suck.” - John Steinbeck

  • Psycoprophet.8107Psycoprophet.8107 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 14, 2021

    @Jugglemonkey.8741 said:

    @Yasai.3549 said:

    @Jugglemonkey.8741 said:

    So unless you're going to suggest a mechanic that bypasses the mount health and strikes a player's health directly, or that simply does enough damage to overpower the opponent in one shot, it will achieve nothing. And even if it did, frankly, the way DE burst before the Feb patch was plain unhealthy for the game, I don't really want to see a return to that. I'd rather see a more useful set of rifle 2 and 3 skills so that spamming standing rifle 2 for malice isn't always the best choice, and so the 3 skills aren't damage dealers, but so they do something else that sets up the opponent for the spike. That would make DE gameplay far less spammy while not overpowering or breaking it in the process.

    I blame Ini mechanic and Malice mechanic combined for creating a "spammy" identity for DE.
    Malice is essential for a DE to deal their "sniper's shot" with DJ, and Ini is basically a cooldown bypass which facilitates Malice generation.

    All of this just creates a "Sniper" with a bottomless clip which shoots really fast and deals high damage.

    Also, I think that DEs in general need to be forced into Kneel for high damage.
    It's a mechanic provided, but it endangers the DE often.

    I actually kinda miss the risk back when DE has to kneel in order to use DJ.
    The idea is to run around without Kneel and build malice, flank the opponent with a Kneel and open a DJ on them.

    Thing is, I actually like that the high damage skill is gated behind malice generation. It means the other guy is well aware of your presence before the high damage shot comes, which is healthy given how much damage that thing can do. There are still plenty of skills that can burst hard on thief, but I'm actually glad the old malicious backstab build isn't a thing anymore. I'm not saying there isn't room for improvement; spamming one skill because nothing else builds malice sufficiently is not great and I agree that kneel should be a high risk high reward kind of thing. They could start just by reworking the 3 skill on both standing and kneeling; it's not useful in PvP or WvW in any way shape or form.

    @Psycoprophet.8107 said:

    @Jugglemonkey.8741 said:

    @Yasai.3549 said:

    @Jugglemonkey.8741 said:

    No offence, but that would make malicious backstab insanely OP if sleight of hand, bountiful theft and mug all went off when it hit. There would also be virtually no reason to use mark if the damage on the non-mark boosted sneak attacks was sufficient, and if you needed to mark in order to do enough damage to kill something it just forces people to run more one trick pony builds. This is unless mark still applied steal traited effects of course, which again would be a straight up buff if the sneak attack applies them too.

    The idea is to turn their "Steal" into a manual function, applied through an extremely strong Stealth Attack.

    Deadeye Mark will become more like "Loading a Bullet"

    It will turn the next Stealth Attack into Malicious Stealth Attack and apply Steal effects IF IT HITS

    If anything, this is more of a function nerf and it doesn't let Deadeyes have an "ez" button that applies like 7 effects without even putting them into danger melee range.

    The "mark" will no longer mark at all, and Malice will only consume when used on a primed Stealth Attack.

    So if they missed their Malicious Stealth Attack, boo hoo hoo.

    Will it make DEs try to go for 1 shot cheese builds again?

    Yes. I'm counting on it.
    Snipers should be aiming to deal a bulk of their damage in a single important shot anyway, and not spamming Spotters and 2k damage autos.

    And if they missed their important shot?
    They are punished by not having access to it for awhile and need to reposition to avoid retaliation.

    Honestly, all of this would make next to no difference, and require substantial reworks in the process. The thing that killed malicious backstab as a build was the introduction of mounts combined with the damage nerf in the Feb 2020 patch; you can't one shot a guy who's mounted because excessive damage to the mount does not overflow into the player's health (it's rather like throwing your 25K backstab into 5k of necro shroud, it ain't gonna work), and if the player is dismounted you no longer have the damage to one shot the majority of builds whether you build malice or not.

    So unless you're going to suggest a mechanic that bypasses the mount health and strikes a player's health directly, or that simply does enough damage to overpower the opponent in one shot, it will achieve nothing. And even if it did, frankly, the way DE burst before the Feb patch was plain unhealthy for the game, I don't really want to see a return to that. I'd rather see a more useful set of rifle 2 and 3 skills so that spamming standing rifle 2 for malice isn't always the best choice, and so the 3 skills aren't damage dealers, but so they do something else that sets up the opponent for the spike. That would make DE gameplay far less spammy while not overpowering or breaking it in the process.

    This^ regarding DE especially. That said thief needs a buff in spike damage on its kits considering its hit and run design. A class like thier needs to hit hard and fast so if it needs to run if pressured than atleast the hits it got off were significant. Unless it gets sustain buffs it needs its active defences and disengage potential intact or it's a free bag.
    I dont understanding why gw2 pvp community had such a issue understanding the concept of a hit and run class, it's what all rogue likes are in mmo. Look at eso for example and ull notice nightblade is top burst class, wow subtlety is top burst class, shadow dancer in archeage or ninja in bdo on and on yet gw2 thief doesn't burst any higher than tanks or jack of all trades builds lmao seriously. Anet seemed like they new what the rogue like class design is about and that it's a class that in every mmo gets hated on by their design but all mmos have them yet over last couple yes they have listened far to much to thief hating and has allowed it to dictate them destroying the class.

    I don't know, I feel like thief has plenty of damage already, at least in WvW. I hit a reaper for 15k using vault the other night, I had assassin signet on the bar but not popped and no bloodlust stacks. My power P/D DE can get 8-12k sneak attacks off pistol into 7-9k shadow strikes without needing to build malice, and I've been hit with a 17k malicious backstab in the last couple of months (he was D/D, he marked then opened with cloak and dagger followed by a 17k three malice backstab, I've been trying to replicate that damage but I find D/D quite fiddly to play). What we don't have now is that kind of damage on more defensive gear sets/specs or while using dura runes etc, which is actually good IMO as if you want to do that kind of damage for an opener you ought to be glassy yourself.

    What really needs a change IMO is the level of sustain needs to be brought down for all classes, it's stupid that you can build full glass and still have things shrug off your damage. Do that then change leaps in smoke fields to blind on hit (or even better, make smoke fields no longer stealth anything) so permastealth engages aren't a thing, and then we can talk about buffs.

    U may be right, maybe if the sustain lvs were brought down thief's damage would be fine and not just shrugged off but at this point it's either sustain goes down or damage does up but either way somthing needs to happen. Yes in wvw a staff build or DE can do very good dps for sure but a dp and s/d have to build so glassy and have so many things align for its spike to be high and these are stipulations that higher sustain classes dont need yet a rogue like does lol that's backwards. In the mists on the war or guard noc a DA/TRICK/DD running zerk and divinity does 2.6-2.8k backstabs and mid 3k's if a good crit goes off. U can get 4k sometimes on golem with the help of executioner when golems low hp, that's sad compared to the damage of my ranger,rev,necro,ele, even warrior lmao and thief's sopose to be high spike rogue like lol.

  • anduriell.6280anduriell.6280 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @mrt.7813 said:
    Hello friends

    I've been playing since 2013 This is lately the thieves got into the game

    How is it logic to fly 3000 range using a skill?
    shotbow 5 time needs to be added
    invisibility times need to be reduced
    Keep / Gari Hiding Members Always non-stop.
    10 people run after a thief now it has become cancer-like I do not understand
    what should we players do? I push logical explanation Regulations must come to thieves.

    we know the logic for thief but not that much When it comes 2 3, it goes out of range in 1 2 seconds no class like this If you run away and recover, dive behind you in 1 or 2 seconds and make waves, the crime here is in the areanenet team.

    10 people run after a thief now it has become cancer-like I do not understand
    what should we players do? I push logical explanation Regulations must come to thieves. we eventually have to swear or insult the games!

    Best regards

    The easiest approach will be to remove stacking stealth. All the Teleports should not ignore terrain, so a thief can not teleport to another platform.

  • kash.9213kash.9213 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 14, 2021

    @anduriell.6280 said:

    @mrt.7813 said:
    Hello friends

    I've been playing since 2013 This is lately the thieves got into the game

    How is it logic to fly 3000 range using a skill?
    shotbow 5 time needs to be added
    invisibility times need to be reduced
    Keep / Gari Hiding Members Always non-stop.
    10 people run after a thief now it has become cancer-like I do not understand
    what should we players do? I push logical explanation Regulations must come to thieves.

    we know the logic for thief but not that much When it comes 2 3, it goes out of range in 1 2 seconds no class like this If you run away and recover, dive behind you in 1 or 2 seconds and make waves, the crime here is in the areanenet team.

    10 people run after a thief now it has become cancer-like I do not understand
    what should we players do? I push logical explanation Regulations must come to thieves. we eventually have to swear or insult the games!

    Best regards

    The easiest approach will be to remove stacking stealth. All the Teleports should not ignore terrain, so a thief can not teleport to another platform.

    Stacking Stealth is a fun mechanic for map travel and setting things up and is mostly fine. Allowing Stealth Attacks to be active for the entire duration is broken. Allowing dropping combat within a Stealth stack duration is broken and compounded by not giving even a filtered visual of the stealth player within proximity surrounding a Stealth Attack. Otherwise, stealth stacking is fine.

    So you want to take out or change any skill that can allow players to scale topography, why? It's totally fair and even Scorpion wire can pull another thief right back down, or a gap closing skill. What kind of game are you trying to dumb this down to?

    Northern Shiverpeaks [EL] & [SD]

  • My responce on this topic:
    sigh

    You wanna know what kind of other classes' toxic builds I run in to as a thief?
    Do you?

  • ASP.8093ASP.8093 Member ✭✭✭✭

    "Being really good at running away" is, like, the entire roaming meta. Only difference is some classes also have strong sustain.

  • kash.9213kash.9213 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @ASP.8093 said:
    "Being really good at running away" is, like, the entire roaming meta. Only difference is some classes also have strong sustain.

    We all used to have fall damage modifiers even, it was an intended aspect of combat in the games design.

    Northern Shiverpeaks [EL] & [SD]