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WvW Spawn bad design

nargilli.6987nargilli.6987 Member ✭✭
edited January 8, 2021 in WvW

There are many design problems with spawn corner in WvW, as it is implemented now one server can spawncamp for hours the others because they can reach without problems the spawn gate with people (not mentioning ranger's pet that can go even further) and range kill everything , if you place siege in the keep in front of the spawn you can siege the spawn gate so every siege deployed in front of it to counter the spawncamp can be destroyed, and even better you can't build any siege out of sight in front of the spawn due to the "Siege Deployment Blocked" and even if you succceed to do it at the very limit, any treb that you build at spawn can't destroy the other treb at keep that on the contrary can always destroy you (higher ground?), so you can put tons of siege in front of the keep to target tha spawn, but at spawn you cant place any siege to counter properly also due to the "limit to how many siege weapons can be placed within a certain radius", remember at spawn you have less space in front of the gate, this cause hours of easy spawnacamping impossible to counter even because you need a Map Q blob to break the spawncamp, and most of the time you can't even enter the map due to the recent nerf/restriction on map limit, if you even try to use Champion Commander Siegecrusher he do not even try to take back the keep but do a wide path to try to reach one of the side tower.

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Comments

  • nargilli.6987nargilli.6987 Member ✭✭
    edited January 8, 2021

    Thank You for Your contribution, I understand that You also have PvE, PvP, fractals, Dungeons, Raid and so on.
    I just wanted to point out how some can harass other people by using flaws in the game in their favor, Arenanet did something similar in the past to avoid deadlocks in the game when the devs changed SMC shape or Dragonbanner mechanics, golemancer runes etc.

  • NaramSin.2693NaramSin.2693 Member ✭✭✭
    edited January 8, 2021

    @nargilli.6987 said:
    There are many design problems with spawn corner in WvW, as it is implemented now one server can spawncamp for hours the others because they can reach without problems the spawn gate with people (not mentioning ranger's pet that can go even further) and range kill everything , if you place siege in the keep in front of the spawn you can siege the spawn gate so every siege deployed in front of it to counter the spawncamp can be destroyed, and even better you can't build any siege out of sight in front of the spawn due to the "Siege Deployment Blocked" and even if you succceed to do it at the very limit, any treb that you build at spawn can't destroy the other treb at keep that on the contrary can always destroy you (higher ground?), so you can put tons of siege in front of the keep to target tha spawn, but at spawn you cant place any siege to counter properly also due to the "limit to how many siege weapons can be placed within a certain radius", remember at spawn you have less space in front of the gate, this cause hours of easy spawnacamping impossible to counter even because you need a Map Q blob to break the spawncamp, and most of the time you can't even enter the map due to the recent nerf/restriction on map limit, if you even try to use Champion Commander Siegecrusher he do not even try to take back the keep but do a wide path to try to reach one of the side tower.

    Well there are many things that are not balanced, you can use the conquered keep as a higher ground and defensive structure were to build sieges like trebs having a safe spot, othere trebs at spawn camp are always in open field so no higher ground or safe spot. you can't use spawncamp walls, also the space at spawn is reduced so you can build just few siege (limit on the number in a certain area), at keep you can spread the siege plus you can place a pletora of open field siege just in front of the spawn gate with an heavy cover from behind at the keep, virtually away from any siege from spawn camp, the treb at keep wall can hit your treb in open field but at the same distance your treb can't hit the one in keep even with maxed masteries.

    It's also easy to control the only 3 exits from spawn that are visible and covered by keep sieges, you are virtually at a corner.

  • NaramSin.2693NaramSin.2693 Member ✭✭✭
    edited January 8, 2021

    @Sobx.1758 said:
    Overally this is neither a "bug" nor the case of a "bad design". Seriously, people should stop using "bad design" as a term (and main argument) for "something I dislike".

    It was said the same in the past for things that, sometimes after years, Arenanet (finally) changed, even the spawn camp at the time allowed to build siege inside and was changed for a reason, maybe it's time to change again due to the evolution of the game since then or depending on player abuse of game mechanics, so sometimes is better to take in consideration things that are "the status quo" at the moment and ask yourself if really they are well designed, a game that think to be "perfect" will never evolve and it is dead.

  • Sobx.1758Sobx.1758 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @NaramSin.2693 said:

    @Sobx.1758 said:
    Overally this is neither a "bug" nor the case of a "bad design". Seriously, people should stop using "bad design" as a term (and main argument) for "something I dislike".

    It was said the same in the past for things that, sometimes after years, Arenanet (finally) changed, even the spawn camp at the time allowed to build siege inside and was changed for a reason, maybe it's time to change again due to the evolution of the game since then or depending on player abuse of game mechanics, so sometimes is better to take in consideration things that are "the status quo" at the moment and ask yourself if really they are well designed, a game that think to be "perfect" will never evolve and it is dead.

    I see you're interested in talking in absolute hypothetical theories, but I'm not sure what value it has here. Anet is allowed to "change something, sometimes after years", because some ideas and concept may naturally change. But if you don't see the difference between "enemies standing nearby one of 3 exits" (and NOT spawncamping/spawnkilling, because they can't) and "building siege equipment in zones that are designed to be normally not accessible by enemies, while being able to shoot back at them from those safezones" then I'll need you to explain to me how these are similar concepts, because currently I don't get it.

    One way or another, he can wish for something to change, but there's absolutely no need to dress something as "a bug" or "bad design" when it's neither of those things.

  • NaramSin.2693NaramSin.2693 Member ✭✭✭
    edited January 8, 2021

    @Sobx.1758 said:
    I see you're interested in talking in absolute hypothetical theories, but I'm not sure what value it has here. Anet is allowed to "change something, sometimes after years", because some ideas and concept may naturally change
    One way or another, he can wish for something to change, but there's absolutely no need to dress something as "a bug" or "bad design" when it's neither of those things.

    they were all bugs, not theories, they change and balance things everythime someone focus their attention on a possible flaw in the game, and sometimes they fix it or not depending on the priorities, i don't want to list here all the cases, but trust me they were always bugs or bad design from the beginning, btw we are talking about something different from this topic you can open another thread about what can be considered bug or not, could be interesting to discuss.

  • NaramSin.2693NaramSin.2693 Member ✭✭✭
    edited January 8, 2021

    But if you don't see the difference between "enemies standing nearby one of 3 exits" (and NOT spawncamping/spawnkilling, because they can't) and "building siege equipment in zones that are designed to be normally not accessible by enemies, while being able to shoot back at them from those safezones" then I'll need you to explain to me how these are similar concepts, because currently I don't get it.

    I'll try to explain:

    one side have a defensive structure with no limitations with a range of x to hit you
    You have a defensive structure with many limitations that you can't use a t a range of x and you can't hit what is on the other defended structure.

    One player have the whole map and you have just one corner with 1 (one) access, you are not in a similar situation in an open field, every map has strategic points and accesses but you are in open field, here you are in a corner with a barrier in front of you, you can't hit the enemy and they can throw everything at you just because your only access way are camped by a pletora of enemy sieges, you can't flank, you can't come from behind etc this is only due to the topological design of the map that is just a square, could be nice for a flat earth enthusiasti but from my personal point of view this is a great gift to the other side, there are limits that are given just to the weak side.

    And this is not good for the game experience, you are giving a great advantage to the strong side, for this reason they do spawncamping for hours, maybe the only way is that the third side start to react and engage them from behind but this is not always possible. so in this case you have really a deadlock.

  • NaramSin.2693NaramSin.2693 Member ✭✭✭
    edited January 8, 2021

    @Linken.6345 said:
    Your not supposed to be able to treb keeps from spawn spot, what are you even on about?

    You should not be able to treb spawn spot front gate from keep for the same reason...

  • Linken.6345Linken.6345 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 8, 2021

    If you have that much of a problem with it stay on your home borderland were you have this in my oppinion imagened advantage.
    Edit
    Is this what the american servers are like?
    I have never been spawned camped on any of the boarderlands.

  • Sobx.1758Sobx.1758 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 8, 2021

    @NaramSin.2693 said:

    But if you don't see the difference between "enemies standing nearby one of 3 exits" (and NOT spawncamping/spawnkilling, because they can't) and "building siege equipment in zones that are designed to be normally not accessible by enemies, while being able to shoot back at them from those safezones" then I'll need you to explain to me how these are similar concepts, because currently I don't get it.

    I'll try to explain:

    one side have a defensive structure with no limitations with a range of x to hit you
    You have a defensive structure with many limitations that you can't use a t a range of x and you can't hit what is on the other defended structure.

    One player have the whole map and you have just one corner with 1 (one) access, you are not in a similar situation in an open field, every map has strategic points and accesses but you are in open field, here you are in a corner with a barrier in front of you, you can't hit the enemy and they can throw everything at you just because your only access way are camped by a pletora of enemy sieges, you can't flank, you can't come from behind etc this is only due to the topological design of the map that is just a square, could be nice for a flat earth enthusiasti but from my personal point of view this is a great gift to the other side, there are limits that are given just to the weak side.

    And this is not good for the game experience, you are giving a great advantage to the strong side, for this reason they do spawncamping for hours, maybe the only way is that the third side start to react and engage them from behind but this is not always possible. so in this case you have really a deadlock.

    Ok, I might be misunderstanding what you mean here because your choice of naming things in an exacmple gets in the way for me -it would be easier if you used actual WvW terms in this post, as "defensive structure", "range of x", "many limitations" doesn't tell me a lot to paint a proper picture.

    Anyways, considering this is about spawn safezones being camped:
    Enemy sieges that aren't in a safe zone, so even if build behind the walls, can be accessed and destroyed (as opposed to the spawn area). Sieges that people need to sit by to use them, which means your side is already winning in numbers against them. Sieges that don't guard 3 entrances. Sieges that have slow projectiles, so can be rather easly dodged. Sieges that can't move, so you can pick your targets to cap and fight over instead of trying to take the most guardeed one. So... where's the "bug" or "bad design" here? How are you unable to leave the spawn because of some trebs? Am I even understanding this correctly? :no_mouth:

    @Linken.6345 said:
    If you have that much of a problem with it stay on your home borderland were you have this in my oppinion imagened advantage.
    Edit
    Is this what the american servers are like?
    I have never been spawned camped on any of the boarderlands.

    Same.

  • Veprovina.4876Veprovina.4876 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Linken.6345 said:
    If you have that much of a problem with it stay on your home borderland were you have this in my oppinion imagened advantage.
    Edit
    Is this what the american servers are like?
    I have never been spawned camped on any of the boarderlands.

    I've seen some "spawn camping" (i hesitate to call it that, it's not the same as you'll see), in EU servers.

    But what it boils down to it is not that a blob is camping at spawn and killing anyone that dares get out, it's more like, an opposing guild comes and waits there for guild fights. And they don't just bomb everyone as soon as they're in range, they wait for everyone to stack, buff, etc., then fight a bit. If the guild closes to spawn is defeated, they wait for another fight, prep, stack, etc., and if the "spawncamping" (again, that's not spawncamping) guild gets defeated, they go away anyway.
    And after a few fights, if the guild close to spawn keeps losing, they move on anayway, there's really no reason to park a blob at someone's spawn when there's other blobs capturing your objectives...

    So i never saw some blob, or even roamers, camp at someone's spawn because it's just not worth the time.
    Firstly, there's 3 spots to leave, you're not going to block anyone by camping there, you'll just lose participation.

    So no, there's no real spawncamping in GW2, just some guild fights here and there at spawn and maybe some unfortunate soul gets caught in the crossfire.

  • Veprovina.4876Veprovina.4876 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Balthazzarr.1349 said:

    @Veprovina.4876 said:

    @Linken.6345 said:
    If you have that much of a problem with it stay on your home borderland were you have this in my oppinion imagened advantage.
    Edit
    Is this what the american servers are like?
    I have never been spawned camped on any of the boarderlands.

    I've seen some "spawn camping" (i hesitate to call it that, it's not the same as you'll see), in EU servers.

    But what it boils down to it is not that a blob is camping at spawn and killing anyone that dares get out, it's more like, an opposing guild comes and waits there for guild fights. And they don't just bomb everyone as soon as they're in range, they wait for everyone to stack, buff, etc., then fight a bit. If the guild closes to spawn is defeated, they wait for another fight, prep, stack, etc., and if the "spawncamping" (again, that's not spawncamping) guild gets defeated, they go away anyway.
    And after a few fights, if the guild close to spawn keeps losing, they move on anayway, there's really no reason to park a blob at someone's spawn when there's other blobs capturing your objectives...

    So i never saw some blob, or even roamers, camp at someone's spawn because it's just not worth the time.
    Firstly, there's 3 spots to leave, you're not going to block anyone by camping there, you'll just lose participation.

    So no, there's no real spawncamping in GW2, just some guild fights here and there at spawn and maybe some unfortunate soul gets caught in the crossfire.

    You’ve obviously never been against Maguuma.

    Obviously... :smile:

    Which one is that? I'm too lazy to check, is it NA?
    Cuase i've notice a LOT of difference between NA and EU servers in terms of community.
    From the posts and whatnot on this forum, NA servers tend to be a lot more toxic.

  • Veprovina.4876Veprovina.4876 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Balthazzarr.1349 said:

    @Veprovina.4876 said:

    @Balthazzarr.1349 said:

    @Veprovina.4876 said:

    @Linken.6345 said:
    If you have that much of a problem with it stay on your home borderland were you have this in my oppinion imagened advantage.
    Edit
    Is this what the american servers are like?
    I have never been spawned camped on any of the boarderlands.

    I've seen some "spawn camping" (i hesitate to call it that, it's not the same as you'll see), in EU servers.

    But what it boils down to it is not that a blob is camping at spawn and killing anyone that dares get out, it's more like, an opposing guild comes and waits there for guild fights. And they don't just bomb everyone as soon as they're in range, they wait for everyone to stack, buff, etc., then fight a bit. If the guild closes to spawn is defeated, they wait for another fight, prep, stack, etc., and if the "spawncamping" (again, that's not spawncamping) guild gets defeated, they go away anyway.
    And after a few fights, if the guild close to spawn keeps losing, they move on anayway, there's really no reason to park a blob at someone's spawn when there's other blobs capturing your objectives...

    So i never saw some blob, or even roamers, camp at someone's spawn because it's just not worth the time.
    Firstly, there's 3 spots to leave, you're not going to block anyone by camping there, you'll just lose participation.

    So no, there's no real spawncamping in GW2, just some guild fights here and there at spawn and maybe some unfortunate soul gets caught in the crossfire.

    You’ve obviously never been against Maguuma.

    Obviously... :smile:

    Which one is that? I'm too lazy to check, is it NA?
    Cuase i've notice a LOT of difference between NA and EU servers in terms of community.
    From the posts and whatnot on this forum, NA servers tend to be a lot more toxic.

    yep it’s NA

    Ah yes. There seems to be a rather large difference between those communities...

    But still, even if a guild is spawncamping a site, there's 2 more exits and 3 more maps, plus, that guild is dumb for doing that because they're losing participation just to be jerks so the joke is on them i guess...

    But yeah, i'm glad i'm on EU. :tongue:

  • TwoGhosts.6790TwoGhosts.6790 Member ✭✭✭

    @Tuna Bandit.3786 said:
    Incorrect.
    Some servers love to bully others.
    I have whitnessed this behavior happening last and this week.
    Hours on end even.

    They call it Spawn Camping or Bag Farming. The minute you step out of the save zone (determined is off) you are bombared by rangers, thiefs, from all 3 exits.
    They even tier up surrounding towers to have Watchtower on it, to seriously prevent anyone entering the map.

    I myself simply see that happening and leave. I will never give such low life bullies the pleasure to kill constantly.

    But saying it's not happening... open your eyes. Some servers are Notorious for doing it even.
    Not naming here though, not going into a dirt fight.

    I mean, I very occasionally see something like this, or 3-4 thieves chaining to gank people, or a little group of giggling rangers, or some guild waiting for a gvg near spawn tower, or whatever.

    I don't think I've ever seen a coordinated, concerted map effort to block all three spawn exits simulateously, completely and relentlessly. I'm not saying you're exaggerating, I've just never seen it.

    But I can tell you that I've had some really fun fights skirmishing with the enemy or joining a gvg near spawn, or busting a limited blockade.

    You know, in all liklihood those players are probably just bored af, and are not facing an adequate enough challenge from your server; and that might just be a consequence of a kitten matchup, kitten linking or the ubiquitous bandwagoning.

    But, out of interest and not belligerence, what is your suggested solution if you feel unable or unwilling to create your own solution? What do you think Anet should do? How far back should the enemy be made to wait? How many more spawn exits should there be? What mechanic do you suggest to allow you to leave spawn unmolested? And how far should that extend?

    Anyway, good luck.

  • Veprovina.4876Veprovina.4876 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Balthazzarr.1349 said:

    @Veprovina.4876 said:

    @Balthazzarr.1349 said:

    @Veprovina.4876 said:

    @Balthazzarr.1349 said:

    @Veprovina.4876 said:

    @Linken.6345 said:
    If you have that much of a problem with it stay on your home borderland were you have this in my oppinion imagened advantage.
    Edit
    Is this what the american servers are like?
    I have never been spawned camped on any of the boarderlands.

    I've seen some "spawn camping" (i hesitate to call it that, it's not the same as you'll see), in EU servers.

    But what it boils down to it is not that a blob is camping at spawn and killing anyone that dares get out, it's more like, an opposing guild comes and waits there for guild fights. And they don't just bomb everyone as soon as they're in range, they wait for everyone to stack, buff, etc., then fight a bit. If the guild closes to spawn is defeated, they wait for another fight, prep, stack, etc., and if the "spawncamping" (again, that's not spawncamping) guild gets defeated, they go away anyway.
    And after a few fights, if the guild close to spawn keeps losing, they move on anayway, there's really no reason to park a blob at someone's spawn when there's other blobs capturing your objectives...

    So i never saw some blob, or even roamers, camp at someone's spawn because it's just not worth the time.
    Firstly, there's 3 spots to leave, you're not going to block anyone by camping there, you'll just lose participation.

    So no, there's no real spawncamping in GW2, just some guild fights here and there at spawn and maybe some unfortunate soul gets caught in the crossfire.

    You’ve obviously never been against Maguuma.

    Obviously... :smile:

    Which one is that? I'm too lazy to check, is it NA?
    Cuase i've notice a LOT of difference between NA and EU servers in terms of community.
    From the posts and whatnot on this forum, NA servers tend to be a lot more toxic.

    yep it’s NA

    Ah yes. There seems to be a rather large difference between those communities...

    But still, even if a guild is spawncamping a site, there's 2 more exits and 3 more maps, plus, that guild is dumb for doing that because they're losing participation just to be jerks so the joke is on them i guess...

    But yeah, i'm glad i'm on EU. :tongue:

    What dumber is that people stay there and get killed over and over then complain instead of just going out another way. lol

    True lol. I mean, you have multiple exits, just leave the blob on one, let them waste participation if they want, then go elswhere haha. :smiley:

  • Justine.6351Justine.6351 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Yeah people that get spawn camped often enjoy fighting there because of the ability to run away to a safe spot with invulnerability.

    Anet buff me :-(
    Make me good at game!

  • Luthan.5236Luthan.5236 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Not a bad design. Good design. You don't have to walk that much if the enemy is nice enough to come to your spawn. They probably will find it much more annoying - especially when trying to keep up the participation and doing their dailies. (If they fully own the whole map and can camp at your spawn and have to fight between themselves to get at least a bit damage done to some of your guys to get kill credit. :D)

  • Voltekka.2375Voltekka.2375 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Yes, yes, bullying is a thing on overstacked "fight" servers. I can only suggest you dont feed them, ignore them, let em upgrade tour whole corner to T3 and play on another map. They get bored eventually and try to bully others, or log off.

  • @Justine.6351 said:
    Yeah people that get spawn camped often enjoy fighting there because of the ability to run away to a safe spot with invulnerability.

    I like finding the enemies without Stability and pulling them into range of the Legendary Defenders.

  • NaramSin.2693NaramSin.2693 Member ✭✭✭
    edited January 11, 2021

    Yes there are servers in NA that do a "next level" spawncamping, one I directly experienced was a 2 days long spawn farm done by mag, thet took almost everything in the other side, keep, the 2 towers and camps all upgraded to T3, keep full of sieges to cover other open filed siege, and various zerg and roamer groups farming everyone spawning by the gate, they destroyed any siege in front of the gate but was impossible from a treb (just for example) to destroy the one was hittinghim from keep (I suppose maybe due to "higher ground" position of the one at keep) if we leave aside the ethic part of doing this (btw it's a war and every server choose how to waste time camping or wasting bags keeping spawning from the waypoint for no reason instead going somewere else) the problem i saw and i agree with the original post is that this is not balanced and surely open to be abused as it is now, my2c

  • Doo Lally.8594Doo Lally.8594 Member ✭✭✭

    I don't think I've ever seen a coordinated, concerted map effort to block all three spawn exits simulateously, completely and relentlessly. I'm not saying you're exaggerating, I've just never seen it.

    I was on DH a few years back and Mag spawn camped them for 3 days solid. All 3 exits. I've been on the other side with Mag and it's happened multiple times.

    You're correct in saying it's mainly due to boredom and a poor matchup. What's also obvious is that you really don't relentlessly need to fling yourself, lemming-like, on to the campers.

    Leaves a bad taste in the mouth frankly but children do like to hurt others on occasion.

  • Woop S.7851Woop S.7851 Member ✭✭✭
    edited January 11, 2021

    Any thoughts on possible solutions to deterring spawn camping? (thinking out loud.. would any of the below work? Issues/side-effects this might cause? Thoughts & feedbacks?)

    • Example scenario 1: Low-population on 1 side, Keep held by enemy for too long + no commander present for more than 'x' minutes:
      A. System initiates NPC Commander Siegerazer, it tags up, offering bonus buffs (such as Commanders' presence - # scales by player #s or other conditions/formula), the NPC can offer speed boosts? Lay down siege to take a keep back? or:
      B. If outnumbered on 1 side, system...spawns a giant super awesome drivable Mecha Siege Turtle at spawn area :p

    • Example scenario 2: Enemies camping a spawn non-stop (4 thieves, 10 guardians etc. or due to population imbalance):
      A. System apply de-buffs to spawn campers within the area after 'x' Minutes (examples: -200 toughness or stealth disabled + 'revealed')
      B. Elevate terrain for spawn area or add exit portals, enemy players can't see beyond portal (One way mirror, similar to GW1 Alliance battles?)

    (Below: Design reference from GW1 Factions Alliance battles map Etnaran Keys: https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Etnaran_Keys

    Full image: https://i.imgur.com/f2oqvrB.png

    NA Server: Henge of Denravi
    WvW Builds: https://tiny.cc/wvw2

  • Dawdler.8521Dawdler.8521 Member ✭✭✭✭

    That's literally what GW2 has on every spawn today.

    gaggle - /ˈɡaɡ(ə)l/ - noun
    A disorderly group of Asura.
    "The gaggle of Asura tried to agree on whether a phase-shifted thermonuclear energy matrix was sufficiently powerful for a device capable of heating bread"

  • Svarty.8019Svarty.8019 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @nargilli.6987 said:
    if you even try to use Champion Commander Siegecrusher he do not even try to take back the keep but do a wide path to try to reach one of the side tower.

    A bit of a side-note but even Developer Cal said Siegeraiser should one-shot gates. I think he should be invulnerable, too. You had your fun capping all their kitten, now go and do something else!

    This post contains my opinion.

  • Strider Pj.2193Strider Pj.2193 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Doo Lally.8594 said:

    I don't think I've ever seen a coordinated, concerted map effort to block all three spawn exits simulateously, completely and relentlessly. I'm not saying you're exaggerating, I've just never seen it.

    I was on DH a few years back and Mag spawn camped them for 3 days solid. All 3 exits. I've been on the other side with Mag and it's happened multiple times.

    You're correct in saying it's mainly due to boredom and a poor matchup. What's also obvious is that you really don't relentlessly need to fling yourself, lemming-like, on to the campers.

    Leaves a bad taste in the mouth frankly but children do like to hurt others on occasion.

    @Woop S.7851 said:
    Any thoughts on possible solutions to deterring spawn camping? (thinking out loud.. would any of the below work? Issues/side-effects this might cause? Thoughts & feedbacks?)

    • Example scenario 1: Low-population on 1 side, Keep held by enemy for too long + no commander present for more than 'x' minutes:
      A. System initiates NPC Commander Siegerazer, it tags up, offering bonus buffs (such as Commanders' presence - # scales by player #s or other conditions/formula), the NPC can offer speed boosts? Lay down siege to take a keep back? or:
      B. If outnumbered on 1 side, system...spawns a giant super awesome drivable Mecha Siege Turtle at spawn area :p

    • Example scenario 2: Enemies camping a spawn non-stop (4 thieves, 10 guardians etc. or due to population imbalance):
      A. System apply de-buffs to spawn campers within the area after 'x' Minutes (examples: -200 toughness or stealth disabled + 'revealed')
      B. Elevate terrain for spawn area or add exit portals, enemy players can't see beyond portal (One way mirror, similar to GW1 Alliance battles?)

    (Below: Design reference from GW1 Factions Alliance battles map Etnaran Keys: https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Etnaran_Keys

    Full image: https://i.imgur.com/f2oqvrB.png

    @Tuna Bandit.3786 said:
    Incorrect.
    Some servers love to bully others.
    I have whitnessed this behavior happening last and this week.
    Hours on end even.

    They call it Spawn Camping or Bag Farming. The minute you step out of the save zone (determined is off) you are bombared by rangers, thiefs, from all 3 exits.
    They even tier up surrounding towers to have Watchtower on it, to seriously prevent anyone entering the map.

    I myself simply see that happening and leave. I will never give such low life bullies the pleasure to kill constantly.

    But saying it's not happening... open your eyes. Some servers are Notorious for doing it even.
    Not naming here though, not going into a dirt fight.

    So, let me help here: there are maps other that eternal battlegrounds. The border lands work very well.

    I feel bad that people keep walking into a death trap on the same map over and over and don’t seem to understand that there are other options, both within the map they are trying to enter ( 3 exits) and the other three maps. (Which each have three exits.)

    Just trying to help some peeps out.

    Thank You for the {MEME}

  • Klypto.1703Klypto.1703 Member ✭✭✭

    Some people don't understand the meaning of spawn camped either. Have had people claiming I was spawn camping them by sitting in NE and NW alpine camps and the map not being home borderland map lol. Hard to explain to these types of players that its not spawn camping its just happening to be entertained by mindless zombies coming at me and immediately getting killed. However there is also that one guild of people that pretty much are bots with just a weapon to tag people with my problem with them is that since they don't have decent builds or have any armor or trinkets the npc's will double down them before I can hit them once. Then the headache if they are on your server but at the same time amusing because if someone drops something like DH traps it will kill about half of them instantly so if you are lagging any it will look like a whole blob of players died from running into a breeze with no enemies in sight. So its a rough era for WvW and hoping your allies can make it to an enemy without dying much less being spawn camped.

  • Bristingr.5034Bristingr.5034 Member ✭✭✭
    edited January 12, 2021

    Yeah, we're against Maguuma this week. Both CD and TC are taking a "go kitten yourself" approach to them by simply not playing on EBG. They have been the worst server to play against. If you don't play on EBG, they whine and throw a fit because they're bored. Meanwhile, we're having fun playing the other team on all the other BLs.

    All they want to do is spawn camp and hump SMC. EBG's spawn is terrible, but that's why there's 3 other maps to play on.

  • @Bristingr.5034 said:
    Yeah, we're against Maguuma this week. Both CD and TC are taking a "go kitten yourself" approach to them by simply not playing on EBG. They have been the worst server to play against. If you don't play on EBG, they whine and throw a fit because they're bored. Meanwhile, we're having fun playing the other team on all the other BLs.

    All they want to do is spawn camp and hump SMC. EBG's spawn is terrible, but that's why there's 3 other maps to play on.

    Oh dear! I never thought staying around the spawning area to kill enemies is still a thing! I admit that the spawning points in Eternal Battlegrounds are terrible. Barely I have the journey in it. I often roam in the others. (P.S I like to encounter with enemy roamers and learn their builds, mechanics, abilities and skillplay most of the time)

  • KrHome.1920KrHome.1920 Member ✭✭✭✭

    The 3 exits on EBG are not an argument, because spawn camping is usually a result of snowballing. This means you don't have any structure you can move to after you left the exit and it is quite eay to chase you down by the campers.

    So the only real workaround (I don't call that solution, because being forced to leave the map to be able to enjoy some basic gameplay is not acceptable) is switching to a borderland. Unfortunately all borderlands are inferior in design to EBG. So it's no surprise, when people just log out and never come back.

  • Strider Pj.2193Strider Pj.2193 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @KrHome.1920 said:
    The 3 exits on EBG are not an argument, because spawn camping is usually a result of snowballing. This means you don't have any structure you can move to after you left the exit and it is quite eay to chase you down by the campers.

    Hmm. It’s too bad you can’t party up as 2 or 3 groups of 5 and leave one of the side exits and start to take other items from them.

    So the only real workaround (I don't call that solution, because being forced to leave the map to be able to enjoy some basic gameplay is not acceptable) is switching to a borderland. Unfortunately all borderlands are inferior in design to EBG. So it's no surprise, when people just log out and never come back.

    If you only like EBG, maybe you should transfer to Mag. Otherwise, either tank your matchup to avoid them, or, and here is a better solution, work with your server to own their BL as they won’t defend it at the expense of EBG and push them out of your tier.

    Thank You for the {MEME}

  • Dawdler.8521Dawdler.8521 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 12, 2021

    @Strider Pj.2193 said:
    Hmm. It’s too bad you can’t party up as 2 or 3 groups of 5 and leave one of the side exits and start to take other items from them.

    What? Thats ridiculous. Small parties distracting the enemy?! Its 50 man and pushing straight forward or nothing!

    Its the same when there is say a bridge and there are 2 zergs about to square off on either side. Your zerg has been loosing most of the evening, but you got lucky and managed to get behind the enemy zerg. You pop tornado and start the mayhem.

    5 people are sent flying.

    And 5 more.

    And another 5.

    By now the enemy zerg is dropping AoE on you trying to bring you down, half of them turning their backs on the friendly zerg. As you draw your last breath, thinking you did something good...

    "Alright boys, stack up!"

    "Wait for it"

    "Lets do a fake push"

    Friendly zerg promptly gets one pushed

    gaggle - /ˈɡaɡ(ə)l/ - noun
    A disorderly group of Asura.
    "The gaggle of Asura tried to agree on whether a phase-shifted thermonuclear energy matrix was sufficiently powerful for a device capable of heating bread"

  • ArchonWing.9480ArchonWing.9480 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 12, 2021

    @KrHome.1920 said:
    The 3 exits on EBG are not an argument, because spawn camping is usually a result of snowballing. This means you don't have any structure you can move to after you left the exit and it is quite eay to chase you down by the campers.

    So the only real workaround (I don't call that solution, because being forced to leave the map to be able to enjoy some basic gameplay is not acceptable) is switching to a borderland. Unfortunately all borderlands are inferior in design to EBG. So it's no surprise, when people just log out and never come back.

    I mean, sure, Red BL kinda sucks, but if you're limiting yourself to 1/3 of WvW, that's not the game's problem either.

  • Strider Pj.2193Strider Pj.2193 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Dawdler.8521 said:

    @Strider Pj.2193 said:
    Hmm. It’s too bad you can’t party up as 2 or 3 groups of 5 and leave one of the side exits and start to take other items from them.

    What? Thats ridiculous. Small parties distracting the enemy?! Its 50 man and pushing straight forward or nothing!

    Its the same when there is say a bridge and there are 2 zergs about to square off on either side. Your zerg has been loosing most of the evening, but you got lucky and managed to get behind the enemy zerg. You pop tornado and start the mayhem.

    5 people are sent flying.

    And 5 more.

    And another 5.

    By now the enemy zerg is dropping AoE on you trying to bring you down, half of them turning their backs on the friendly zerg. As you draw your last breath, thinking you did something good...

    "Alright boys, stack up!"

    "Wait for it"

    "Lets do a fake push"

    Friendly zerg promptly gets one pushed

    Psshh. independent thought is overrated.

    I can almost hear the commander in coms saying: Look at that (Ele/Engi) off tag. That’s what happens!

    Thank You for the {MEME}

  • kamikharzeeh.8016kamikharzeeh.8016 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Voltekka.2375 said:
    Yes, yes, bullying is a thing on overstacked "fight" servers. I can only suggest you dont feed them, ignore them, let em upgrade tour whole corner to T3 and play on another map. They get bored eventually and try to bully others, or log off.

    wrong, the effective spawncamping with thief/rangers on all spawn exits as described (btw very rare sight in EU overall, cannot really remember one situation) is exactly only the numberly overstacked ppt servers ... fighting based group won't spawncamp normally, unless u flood blobsize out of spawn continously - they might consider farming bags then...

  • Bristingr.5034Bristingr.5034 Member ✭✭✭
    edited January 12, 2021

    @Strider Pj.2193 said:

    @KrHome.1920 said:
    The 3 exits on EBG are not an argument, because spawn camping is usually a result of snowballing. This means you don't have any structure you can move to after you left the exit and it is quite eay to chase you down by the campers.

    Hmm. It’s too bad you can’t party up as 2 or 3 groups of 5 and leave one of the side exits and start to take other items from them.

    So the only real workaround (I don't call that solution, because being forced to leave the map to be able to enjoy some basic gameplay is not acceptable) is switching to a borderland. Unfortunately all borderlands are inferior in design to EBG. So it's no surprise, when people just log out and never come back.

    If you only like EBG, maybe you should transfer to Mag. Otherwise, either tank your matchup to avoid them, or, and here is a better solution, work with your server to own their BL as they won’t defend it at the expense of EBG and push them out of your tier.

    This. It's literally what CD and TC have been doing. Don't bother fighting them, don't give them what they want, just ignore this map and fight each other on the other BLs, and/or play PvP/PvE.

  • ArchonWing.9480ArchonWing.9480 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Ah, people that actually aren't lemmings. Nice.

  • ow I myself wont stay on a map that is spawn camped by a bully server, no way.
    I do, however hold such servers responsible for the deminish of WvW.
    They chase away new players, and scream the loudest that WvW is boring and dying.

    Look, I am not arguing that there are 3 other maps to play on. I myself love Red BL due to the terrain deminishing the advantage of blobs vs roamers.
    I am just saying this type of basement kiddie bullying should be delt with.

    How can they prevent anyone from leaving?
    1. They put TONS upon TONS of siege down from the keep to the very edge,but just out of reach of anything you can build
    2. Anything you build is destroyed IMMEDIATLY
    3. they heavily protect the 2 flanking towers and put Watchtower on them the minute it is available to see everything
    4. Anyone trying to escape and caught by the 2 watchtowers is jumped upon with great force (average 10+ on 1 player) and laughed at

    Spawn Camping to this level is due to the poor design of EBG. There are 3 exits yes, but not much room to manouvre around.
    Unlike the Borderlands where the closest towers are far enough away to sneak around them without being caught by watchtower mechanics.
    I can get to a camp without being marked by a watchtower or sentry on any of the BLs from any of the spawn points.
    I can NOT do that on EBG from either Blue or Green corner and only can get to Speldan's avoiding watchtower on Mendon's by taking the most northern route.

    These are not fight servers, The minute you are caught by a sentry or watchtower you are jumped upon by 10 players.
    They are not looking for an evenly matched fight, they are looking for easy bags and a false sence of superiority

    "Look how kitten we are, killing that player with the 10+ of us!! Woot!!! "

    And those are in general the same people screaming and crying that WvW is dying,
    And why you think it is dying? Ow wait, That might be a too difficult question for you.

    I don't feed spawncamping bullies and stay clear of servers known to do so.
    I also protest if our side does it, although if they manage to do that against a server that does it all the time, I really cannot blame them... but please don't be part of the problem...

    just my 2 cents... Not expecting any change from Anet to begin with.

  • Woop S.7851Woop S.7851 Member ✭✭✭
    edited January 13, 2021

    @Strider Pj.2193 said:
    So, let me help here: there are maps other that eternal battlegrounds. The border lands work very well.
    I feel bad that people keep walking into a death trap on the same map over and over and don’t seem to understand that there are other options, both within the map they are trying to enter ( 3 exits) and the other three maps. (Which each have three exits.)

    Thanks! Every bit of info helps! =)
    Would the below work to counter-balance such scenarios? (EBG as an map example)

    **EBG UI/UX Triggers:

    • After entering EB (1st time): minimap ping/flash for all 3 exits for player
    • if: player leaving spawn area alone, prompt/alert players with popup warning of venturing alone (borrow popup dialogue box from Strike missions or DRM)
    • Triggered first time joining map or when crossing the front-gate exit:

    • Prompt/motivate players teaming up before existing spawn area
    • Currently missing automated grouping find feature (can pop-up right away after entering map);
    • Add exit door portal (similar to the glowing doors used to enter a keep)

    Timer-gated Triggers to counter spawn camping:

    • Unlike EOTM running 4 hour match reset at intervals, EBG runs 24/7 with match ongoing throughout the week, if staying with this design:
    • Need timer triggered intervention functions (similar to board games like chess - it should not be 1 person's turn for a week 24/7)
    • Event triggers: based on battle conditions (Is Red dominating team Blue at spawn? Range? For how long? Red player #s vs. Blue, 10:1 ratio? etc.)
    • Example: Players given spawn point specific buffs (+200 toughness etc.), similar to Objective Auras, can be triggered alongside 'outnumbered', if both buffs lasts 15-minutes (5 x 3 warscore) or more, trigger the following:
      - Apply -200 Toughness/vitality debuff for spawn campers in an area near spawn exit choke
      - Apply 'revealed' within an area near front exit choke
      - Remove downed state, apply defeated or instant death to enemy players within a radius of spawn area

    What do you think? Comments, thoughts, concerns? :)

    NA Server: Henge of Denravi
    WvW Builds: https://tiny.cc/wvw2

  • Woop S.7851Woop S.7851 Member ✭✭✭
    edited January 13, 2021

    @Bristingr.5034 said:
    This.

    Yikes, that looks...very colorful :3

    EB Terrain flow analysis/solutions:

    • Red + Blue spawn has lower terrain elevation to Keep
    • Only Green spawn (bottom left corner - water area) has higher elevation compared to keep, not sure why
    • Distance from spawn > keep > camps uneven (example: alt-route distance from blue spawn at bottom right corner is very long if a player wanted to reach supply camp)
    • Barriers (high walls) placed right outside of spawn seems to form chokes (funnels respawned players, opposite of intended purpose?)
    • No fog of war present at spawn area (1-sided mirror)
    • Triangle/Diamond design theory (from competitive board games) not present on map for balanced 3-way competition (from time/distance in reaching an objective, to walls/barricades, to proper alternative routing from spawn due to 1-sided dominance)
    • Sternhalma (3 players +) uses this, while Go and Chess uses square and lines (2-players):

    • Examples of this exists in EOTM: has 4-hour match reset intervals, instanced, hot-join enabled, uses the triangle design theory:

    • GW1 Alliance battles uses the Triangle/diamond movement flow as well + portals (to balance both sides' travel time, flow, player movement)

    • Missing synchronized group spawn timer (5-10 seconds) like in GW1 Alliance Battles, 4-5 players respawn together, higher chance to push out of spawn against say: 4 camping thieves if roaming, GW1 example:

    Comments? Thoughts? :)

    NA Server: Henge of Denravi
    WvW Builds: https://tiny.cc/wvw2

  • Hannelore.8153Hannelore.8153 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 14, 2021

    I will at least confirm this happens alot in NA, especially on T1.

    Certain servers will first steamroll all your towers and your keep, then finally they'll build siege all around your spawn entries and camp with small parties of 5-6 players, with the main zerg near the keep just in case you succeed at a push.

    You can tell its intentional because they'll often build Shield Generators to defend the siege and change the players builds to have as many pulls as possible so they can farm anyone who tries to run back to the spawn.

    However, the point of this isn't to spawn camp, but to ensure they can escort yaks to the keep from all sides to upgrade it. Redacted especially seems to take pride and joy in having SMC and at least one enemy keep T3 at all times on EBG.

    Hannah | Daisuki[SUKI] Founder, Ehmry Bay, NA | 22 charas, 17k hours, 28k AP | ♀♥♀
    Mains Mariyuuna/Auramancer(PvE) & Terakura/Healbreaker(WvW) aka Sea of Sorrows Silver Assaulter [SUKI]
    No need to be best, only good and kind.

  • Dawdler.8521Dawdler.8521 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Hannelore.8153 said:
    However, the point of this isn't to spawn camp, but to ensure they can escort yaks to the keep from all sides to upgrade it. Redacted especially seems to take pride and joy in having SMC and at least on enemy keep T3 at all times on EBG.

    Which really just emphesize many things other than getting out of spawn - T3 still gives way to much passive PPT, maintaining "enemy" objectives should be harder and we still need better/cheaper siege to attack objectives with smaller groups (will trebuchet ever get the damage/cost pass that catapults did?).

    gaggle - /ˈɡaɡ(ə)l/ - noun
    A disorderly group of Asura.
    "The gaggle of Asura tried to agree on whether a phase-shifted thermonuclear energy matrix was sufficiently powerful for a device capable of heating bread"

  • Fat Disgrace.4275Fat Disgrace.4275 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Someone is bored and taking people for a troll ride lol.