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The problem with stats runes and sigils bound to equipment

namelesswc.9217namelesswc.9217 Member ✭✭
edited January 8, 2021 in Guild Wars 2 Discussion

Some gw2 rant without hoping to make any difference.

Tldr: The point I wanted to make with this post is that being able to experiment with different builds should be a basic feature of a MMO. Because builds are useless with wrong stats, people can't experiment properly. Instead you have to follow meta builds to not waste money on equipment which is not ideal.

Once stats, runes and sigils are applied to equipment it is very hard / expensive to change without having legendary equipment. This leads to almost everybody playing the exact meta build in raids or fractals because the have been proven to work and discourage players to try out new things because it's so expensive.

Also every raider or fractal player is running around in openworld with their full berserker raid / fractal gear and getting 1 shotted all the time because it's to much of an effort to get a completely new set of gear for open world gameplay.

Now if you want try something off meta for raids/endgame fractals or a different build for open world you have get new gear, which requires time and money and depending on the stat of the gear (viper, minstrel, diviner, harrier) a lot of time. And after you get it, it could turn out it's totally kitten. What if trailblazer stats doesn't turn out as good in openworld as you have expected and you want to try out celestial? Well have fun grinding a new set of equipment. And the trailblazer's is new blocking space inside your inventory for years because you don't want to delete it.

Fractals:
This becomes even more extreme in T4/CM fractals. As you have the hfb, alacren backline for pug meta.
You want to try out a different rune for fractals?
Option 1: Get new ascended armor for 200+ gold just for that one tryout run.
Option 2: Override your current 6x5g Rune of Scholar each time you want to try new runes.
Option 3: Buy 6x upgrade extractor and then 6 again if you want to go back to your meta runes.
Other constelations like a chrono-druid backline and more more are perfectly viable but one of the main reasons it is not played is because you have to spend so much gold before being even able to play a different build.

You see where I'm going. Being able to customize your character and try out different combat styles is something you want to easily do in every MMO or RPG but it's somehow so hard in gw2. It's like the game telling you to play that meta and punishes you for wanting to try out new things. Only if you spent thousands of hours grinding your complete set of legendary equipment and having all legendary weapons you are allowed to experiment with stat combinations. I think the upcoming legendary armory just further escalates this problem.

In gw1 the strength of your skills are dependent on your attribute points which could be changed inside every city. Rune did not have such a big impact. Even so it was fairly easy to have different head pieces each with a different +3 rune.
In gw2 the strength of your skills are dependent on your equipment stats which is ok only if it woudn't be so hard to change them.

Since gw2 has already been out for so long I doubt any change is coming. I have also read somewhere that devs are aware they don't like the current infusion system but still no change after so many years. Still some suggestions from me:
Opt 1: Easiest but maybe not best - Make all ascended equipment always stat selectable just like legendaries.
Opt 2: Make ascended stat selectable but one have to unlock the stats. E.g. doing some achievements to onlock viper stats?
Opt 3: Same as Opt 2 but add Gem Store item to unlock all Stats?
Opt 4: End of Dragon buyers get stat selection?

<1

Comments

  • The Boz.2038The Boz.2038 Member ✭✭✭

    Stat-selectable ascended gear, but you need to "bind" a rune, sigil, insignia, or inscription to it to unlock the selection, along with a tiny bit of ecto/obsidian/whatever?

  • Mungo Zen.9364Mungo Zen.9364 Member ✭✭✭

    I appreciate that there is a cost to the flexibility of changing gearing and stats. I do not think this is a prohibitive cost however. If you are running T3/T4 fractals you can make how much gold per day?

    Would I like it cheaper or easier to access, sure thing but, your suggestion negates the legendary grind. If I don’t need legendary to change stats why would I ever invest in it?

    A full set of legendary armor is not that hard to attain if you are happy to grind WvW which also throws a lot of other gear at you along the way. If you are planning on playing this game in a year you can easily grind out a legendary set in that time, likely much less.

  • namelesswc.9217namelesswc.9217 Member ✭✭
    edited January 8, 2021

    I usually do CMs+T4 which gives about 20 gold plus tons of mats but it's not about that.

    The point I wanted to make with this post is that being able to experiment with different builds should be a basic feature of a MMO. Because builds are useless with wrong stats, people can't experiment. Instead you have to follow meta builds to not waste money on equipment which is not ideal.

  • @kharmin.7683 said:
    Stat swapping, outside of legendary, is a gold sink. I think that's by design. I don't see the pressing need to alter it.

    The result is that players don't swap unless their the meta build is suggesting a different stat.

    The ability to tryout otherwise never used stats or weird stat combinations or sigils is withheld for players with legendary equipment.

    There is this cool wintersday sigil which launches snowballs on foes. Who wants to try that out if you have to buy a new 5g sigil of force or 9g sigil of malice after throwing some snowballs?

  • Infusion.7149Infusion.7149 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 8, 2021

    Honestly scholar rune + sigil of force has been meta in fractals forever, which is the only place that ascended armor is necessary. Sigil of Impact used to be only 10% vs stunned/ controlled foes rather than 3% always and an added 7% vs CCed foes.

    If you want a shakeup then scholar rune would need to be detuned a bit (maybe drop to 3% damage bonus similar to sigils). 225 ferocity = 15% crit damage if you have 100% crit chance , plus the additional 5% if you have close to full health (>90%).
    Other contenders outside of scholar rune include eagle runes (10% damage modifier and the same 225 ferocity , but with 175 precision instead of power) and thief runes which are used for precision (10% damage multiplier as well). Rune of the Ogre has a 4% damage mod and 100 ferocity (~6.7% crit damage) but the rock dog summoned is impractical most of the time. There's golemancer runes with +300 ferocity bonus and that's the only thing with a higher ferocity bonus, keeping in mind you give up power to gain that bonus so it isn't viable most of the time.

    Numerically if you punch a typical fractal build such as Banner BS through discretize optimizer with food/utility , assuming the defaults (sigil of force , sigil of impact and no spotter because soulbeasts run marksmanship in fractals):

    Thief = 4615 , with 10% flanking bonus presumably
    Scholar with >90% bonus = 4615
    Eagle = 4613 , the 10% damage bonus only applies vs <50% health targets so it's less useful for boss fights and raid/strike scenarios
    Spellbreaker = 4552 , which isn't great when there's No Pain No Gain or Vengeance instabilities
    Flame Legion = 4456 , keeping in mind you need a guardian to output burning for you if you're on a power build generally
    Ogre = 4438
    Scholar sans 90% health bonus= 4395
    Strength = 4372 , generally would only be running on Tactics warriors
    Pack = 4277

    For merged soulbeast

    Scholar with >90% bonus = 3452
    Eagle = 3422 , the 10% damage bonus only applies vs <50% health targets so it's less useful for boss fights and raid/strike scenarios
    Spellbreaker = 3416 , keeping in mind you have no boon rip yourself
    Thief = 3401 , with 10% flanking bonus presumably
    Flame Legion = 3334 , keeping in mind you need a guardian to output burning for you if you're on a power build generally
    Ogre = 3320
    Scholar sans 90% bonus = 3288
    Strength = 3272
    Pack = 3212

    For power DH (not sure why you would run this over condi FB most of the time)

    Scholar with >90% bonus = 3460
    Eagle = 3382 , the 10% damage bonus only applies vs <50% health targets so it's less useful for boss fights and raid/strike scenarios
    Spellbreaker = 3377 (you generally would not use this on a DH)
    Thief = 3332 , with 10% flanking bonus presumably
    Flame Legion = 3312
    Ogre = 3312
    Scholar sans 90% bonus = 3295
    Strength = 3250
    Pack = 3156

    On snowcrows gear optimizer it's even more apparent in FOTM mode because if you turn off spotter it spits out Scholar Runes straight down for warriors, power DH, soulbeasts, power chrono, power tempest & weaver , power holo, daredevil, reapers , and the lesser used power herald.

    Runes tend to be the most boring part of power builds. You can look at builds sites and almost always it's Scholar Rune unless you can't reasonably hit crit cap of 100% crit chance.

    I have to disagree with people getting 1 shotted in openworld in berserker gear. You can swap trinkets or change a build slightly if it's that much of a problem. In addition there's a mystic forge recipe to swap stats on ascended gear so stat select isn't necessarily a requirement for power builds. The only amazingly expensive stat right now is Trailblazer. Diviner requires time investment for the serpentite ; harrier ascended recipes are expensive so mystic forge tends to be cheaper. Minstrel used to be more pricey but now that it has fell out of favor for PVE , WVW players can have an easier time with obtaining it.

    Generally it has been much more stressful for WvW players by the way, which is why I made legendary armor. Durability runes , leadership runes, antitoxin, monk runes, etc all have fallen in and out of favor.

  • Mungo Zen.9364Mungo Zen.9364 Member ✭✭✭

    @namelesswc.9217 said:

    The point I wanted to make with this post is that being able to experiment with different builds should be a basic feature of a MMO. Because builds are useless with wrong stats, people can't experiment. Instead you have to follow meta builds to not waste money on equipment which is not ideal.

    Why should it be a basic feature? Perhaps I am missing something but I don’t recall having free stat swaps in other MMO I played.

    I appreciate your desire to theory crafting and wanting easier access to that but I would contend that most players don’t care. Many players use meta builds because understanding the stats and mechanics of GW2 is fairly different from other games and there are so many unique variables from other games.

    Likewise I doubt most players farming legendaries are doing it to theory craft, but rather to have flexibility to switch between meta builds in different game types.

    Overall, yes, it would be lovely to have access to stat swapping more readily. Your suggested implementations however devalue existing legendaries to satisfy your wants. In your proposed idea here, where do legendaries fit in? Do they get cost reduced as well? What would be the draw to getting legendary armor?

  • kharmin.7683kharmin.7683 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @namelesswc.9217 said:

    @kharmin.7683 said:
    Stat swapping, outside of legendary, is a gold sink. I think that's by design. I don't see the pressing need to alter it.

    The result is that players don't swap unless their the meta build is suggesting a different stat.

    This doesn't prevent them. Discourages, perhaps, but not prevent.

    The ability to tryout otherwise never used stats or weird stat combinations or sigils is withheld for players with legendary equipment.

    Isn't that where the META builds come from anyway? Players with legendary equipment?

    There is this cool wintersday sigil which launches snowballs on foes. Who wants to try that out if you have to buy a new 5g sigil of force or 9g sigil of malice after throwing some snowballs?

    So, either pony up the gold or craft legendary equipment.

    As I said, I find this to be a gold sink for the game and probably intended to be so. Why put in the playing time/effort/mats/gold for legendary equipment if one can stat-swap with everything else.

    Just my take on it.

    I am a very casual player.
    Very.
    Casual.

  • Obtena.7952Obtena.7952 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @namelesswc.9217 said:
    I usually do CMs+T4 which gives about 20 gold plus tons of mats but it's not about that.

    The point I wanted to make with this post is that being able to experiment with different builds should be a basic feature of a MMO. Because builds are useless with wrong stats, people can't experiment. Instead you have to follow meta builds to not waste money on equipment which is not ideal.

    There is a wealth of information out there about how to make choices without having to re-discover what's good or not. That's especially true if you want to just use meta. In addition, you might not be aware but you don't have to follow meta builds because the game isn't designed so that you need to use meta builds to be successful.

    If you're on a highway and roadrunner goes "beep beep"
    Just step aside or you might end up in a heap

  • Veprovina.4876Veprovina.4876 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 8, 2021

    Let's see...

    https://gw2efficiency.com/crafting/calculator/a~0!b~1!c~0!d~6-73227

    This is how much it costs to convert your entire ascended armor set to one of the pricier stat combinations. About 40 gold.
    This is basically 2 dailies of running T3 or T4 fractals.

    https://gw2efficiency.com/crafting/calculator/a~0!b~1!c~0!d~4-72875

    If you have 4 weapons, it's another 20 gold to change stats on them. One day of T3/T4 fractals.

    Then you have Ascended stat selectable stuff like Bloodstone backpack, ring and amulet which can be reset for unbound magic. That's 0 gold spent. Other ascended trinkets can be had for 0 gold as well because of the LW3 stat selectable stuff so i'm not going to count them as gold expense when switching stats, you can just farm the currencies and get another set, it just takes time.

    That leaves Runes and infusions to deal with. Let's say, you spend another 30 gold on removing all the infusions (you won't, but whatever). Again, one day of running T3/T4 dailies.

    That then leaves runes and sigils. If you need the most expensive runes like idk, Tormenting or whatever, that's another 40 gold for runes, and let's say 10 gold for 4 sigils. Sigils aren't that pricey. Another 3 days of fractals.

    Then let's add 10 gold "expenses" like idk, whatever you'd need to get stuff while farming, teleporting around the map, etc.

    Attuning and infusing the new rings will also cost, idk, 50 gold, 3 days of fractals.

    Total estimate to change stats with kind of overblown estimates in worst case scenario is then around 200 gold or about 2 weeks of running T4 dailies, plus LW3 farming.

    I admit, that looks scary, but this is the worst case scenario, all the infusions, all the most expensive stuff bought from TP using NONE of your materials (which will never be the case). But it's still just 2 weeks of 2 hour session gameplay per day... If you use your materials, which you'll always have from salvaging and just playing the game the cost becomes way cheaper. Especially if you intend to gather them instead of buying.
    It's not really that scary when you look at it that way.

    The "good" thing depending on how you look at it is then - you have 2 weeks time to try out your new build or whatever...

    But here's the thing.. This is the incentive for players to work towards legendary items. Instead of wasting 200 gold every 2 weeks on stat changes for you to test, you could save it instead, and do the legendary collections and have the ending legendary be that much cheaper once you eventually get it. After that, after even 1 legendary, then 2, then 3, it becomes exponentially cheaper to change the stats on the remaining items should you wish so.

    For example. I have 2 legendary armors right now. Armor pieces, not sets.

    That's 2 less infusion extractors, 2 less superior runes, 2 less intricate insignias to deal with.

    Third armor will reduce that cost even less, and so on, and so on.
    Yes, legendary is expensive, but not when you look at how much you save in the long run.

    So all in all, changing stats is not really THAT big of a deal. It just prevents you from making meme builds that will get you kicked out of fractals and being unable to progress towards your "next stat change" or whatever.

    So i think the system is made like that to enable players stat changing to keep up with the meta as it changes, while nudging you in the direction of making legendaries if you want your stats changed so often.

    That being said, i know people who never changed their stats once they got what they wanted. And indeed the game is designed that way kind of... So that it discourages stat mixing mostly, and so that when the community finds the most useful stats, it's good for basically ever...

    EDIT: Just as a side note - raiders getting one shotted in open world on berserker's comment is a bit too much. There's nothing wrong with berserker's in open world. If it works in harder content like raids and fractals, it works in others as well. There's also TONS of exotic equipment that's free (WvW armor etc), and stat selectable for you to play with. You're not meant to test builds on ascended anyway. If you find something that works on exotic without stat infusions and supbar cheap runes, it'll work on ascended with stat infusions and good runes and sigils.

    Want to test builds? Get exotic stuff first.

    On my open world character, i'm running full exotic, and changed my build twice now for 0 gold, and there's absolutely nothing wrong with it, deals damage, ok survivability on full Viper's - you have dodges, mobs have half an hour tells and glowing circles where they'll strike - exotic is just fine. Plus, from what i can tell, Raids don't require ascended so to do, so you can experiment with builds all you want.

  • It's not about creating new meta builds by being able to stats nor is it about min maxing your crit to 100%.

    Why should it be a basic feature? Perhaps I am missing something but I don’t recall having free stat swaps in other MMO I played.

    I'm comparing it to gw1 since thats the other mmo I have played the most. Attributes points would be the equivalent to stats in gw1 since that's what mainly determined how effective your skill was. And they can be adjusted in cities all the time if I recall correctly.

    Gw2's old trait system didn't used to my adjustable too. You had to pay money to reset it until they changed it. With the new system trait changing is free but choosing a heal trait over a damage trait is useless if you don't switch to healing gear too.

  • Obtena.7952Obtena.7952 Member ✭✭✭✭

    The bottomline here is that it's going to cost you gold to experiment ...

    whether that's the cost of legendary gear ... or the cost of purchasing a whole slew of armors/weapons with different traits. I can't believe that's not by accident either.

    The question is HOW much you are willing to pay.

    If you're on a highway and roadrunner goes "beep beep"
    Just step aside or you might end up in a heap

  • @Veprovina.4876 said:
    Total estimate to change stats with kind of overblown estimates in worst case scenario is then around 200 gold or about 2 weeks of running T4 dailies, plus LW3 farming.

    So about 200g or 2 weeks just to try out something different for a run to have some fun and then another 200g or 2 weeks to get your old build back. What if you notice in the middle of the run that it doesn't work out as planned and that other stat with more toughness is better? 2 Weeks more of t4 dailies? Someone who only plays on weekends might want to do that too?

  • Excursion.9752Excursion.9752 Member ✭✭✭✭

    This is one of the reasons why I crafted all legendary gear.

                                                              There is a 50% chance you will not agree with me and a 50% chance I will not agree with you
    
  • @Obtena.7952 said:
    In addition, you might not be aware but you don't have to follow meta builds because the game isn't designed so that you need to use meta builds to be successful.

    If you decide against meta builds and want to use your own builds shoudn't you be able to test them? You can theorycraft about your build as much as you want but at the end you want to play your build to see if it works. If not you might adjust it and test it again. Thats exactly what you can do in gw2 pvp but not in pve without paying gold for every slight amount of change.

  • Obtena.7952Obtena.7952 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 8, 2021

    @namelesswc.9217 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:
    In addition, you might not be aware but you don't have to follow meta builds because the game isn't designed so that you need to use meta builds to be successful.

    If you decide against meta builds and want to use your own builds shoudn't you be able to test them?

    Yup, and there is a cost to that. How FAR you are willing to test your builds determines the cost. I mean, what do you think you have to adjust so finely in PVE if you aren't targeting some optimal build?

    Frankly, I think you are delving way to deep into your investigations if you are losing your shirt on testing. I mean, I've done this ... and the conclusion is that you should be more concerned about understanding what you want a build to do BEFORE you build it. The tools are already there to do that.

    The question I have is what kind of changes you are making and how you are deciding to make changes that FORCES you do make the build and test it in game ... because almost everything you need can already be done with online build calculators.

    If you're on a highway and roadrunner goes "beep beep"
    Just step aside or you might end up in a heap

  • kharmin.7683kharmin.7683 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Almost sounds like another request for something free.

    I am a very casual player.
    Very.
    Casual.

  • @Obtena.7952 said:
    Frankly, I think you are delving way to deep into your investigations if you are losing your shirt on testing. I mean, I've done this ... and the conclusion is that you should be more concerned about understanding what you want a build to do BEFORE you build it. The tools are already there to do that.

    Done that too. Now my mesmer has 5 armors. diviner's and minstrel's are just using up space because they are never used but I still want trailblazers to have some fun as condi chrono tank and then never do it again.

  • namelesswc.9217namelesswc.9217 Member ✭✭
    edited January 8, 2021

    @Obtena.7952 said:
    The question I have is what kind of changes you are making and how you are deciding to make changes that FORCES you do make the build and test it in game ... because almost everything you need can already be done with online build calculators.

    I don't have any exact build in mind. All I want to say gw2 would be much more fun if you have the freedom to play different builds without weeks of farming in between. In gw1 a friend could just sent you a build from his build storage which has infinite storage by default btw and tell you: hey try this out its fun.

  • kharmin.7683kharmin.7683 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @namelesswc.9217 said:
    All I want to say gw2 would be much more fun if you have the freedom to play different builds without weeks of farming in between.

    But you can. With Legendary gear.

    I am a very casual player.
    Very.
    Casual.

  • Obtena.7952Obtena.7952 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @namelesswc.9217 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:
    The question I have is what kind of changes you are making and how you are deciding to make changes that FORCES you do make the build and test it in game ... because almost everything you need can already be done with online build calculators.

    I don't have any exact build in mind.

    That's your problem right there. I mean, what build are you actually making and trying out if you don't have an idea of what you want it to do? You're approach is what is causing you the excessive costs.

    If you're on a highway and roadrunner goes "beep beep"
    Just step aside or you might end up in a heap

  • @kharmin.7683 said:
    But you can. With Legendary gear.

    Yeah not worth the time for me. also planning to only play once a week in the future.

    But even if I had every legendary in the game I need 4 friends to have them too. Had this idea of 4 eles and 1 mesmer for fractal cms. The mesmer giving heal, quick, alac, fury and blocks to the team and eles stacking might. If stat change would be free we might find out if it works otherwise probably not.

  • Obtena.7952Obtena.7952 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 8, 2021

    @namelesswc.9217 said:

    @kharmin.7683 said:
    But you can. With Legendary gear.

    Yeah not worth the time for me. also planning to only play once a week in the future.

    I really don't see what the purpose of your investigations are, especially considering how little you plan to play. It seems to me someone that plays so little wouldn't even know what they are looking at to begin with.

    Maybe a better approach for you would be to ask for build suggestions based on some criteria you have and what you want to do. If you are willing to accept a build from a friend in GW1 from their library because 'fun' ... then it shouldn't be a problem to do the same here in GW2 without having to pay all this gold to investigate things.

    If you're on a highway and roadrunner goes "beep beep"
    Just step aside or you might end up in a heap

  • mindcircus.1506mindcircus.1506 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @namelesswc.9217 said:
    Tldr: The point I wanted to make with this post is that being able to experiment with different builds should be a basic feature of a MMO. Because builds are useless with wrong stats, people can't experiment properly. Instead you have to follow meta builds to not waste money on equipment which is not ideal.

    And yet most MMOs other than this one gate traits/build changes behind costly respec systems that require time or currency sinks and often both.
    Most other MMOs additonally require months of grind to get anything close to BiS gear and rather that giving you the opportunity to change stats (as this one does) require to you regrind your gear should you be looking for something different.

    Once stats, runes and sigils are applied to equipment it is very hard / expensive to change without having legendary equipment. This leads to almost everybody playing the exact meta build in raids or fractals because the have been proven to work and discourage players to try out new things because it's so expensive.

    What is the worst case for a sigil swap?
    Ten gold each?
    Can't I make ten gold in an hour of mining rocks and trees in Mount Maelstrom/Sparkfly Fen?

    Also every raider or fractal player is running around in openworld with their full berserker raid / fractal gear and getting 1 shotted all the time because it's to much of an effort to get a completely new set of gear for open world gameplay.

    Love to see your source for this "fact". Most high end fractal or raid players I know find Open World pretty easy.

    Now if you want try something off meta for raids/endgame fractals or a different build for open world you have get new gear, which requires time and money and depending on the stat of the gear (viper, minstrel, diviner, harrier) a lot of time. And after you get it, it could turn out it's totally kitten. What if trailblazer stats doesn't turn out as good in openworld as you have expected and you want to try out celestial? Well have fun grinding a new set of equipment. And the trailblazer's is new blocking space inside your inventory for years because you don't want to delete it.

    Isn't the solution for this already in game? Isn't second best in slot armor available at very minimal cost?
    When I look at the current availability of stat selectable exotic armor to play with buildcraft I'm actually pretty happy. I get a piece every week just for a couple hours in WvW, I have the bladed sets in Verdant Brink, I have those Ice Golem hats on the TP for less than 1g each. The requiem sets, the runic shaman sets... the list really does go on. It's never been easier to kit out a test build even in something like Trailblazers or Minstrels. We have a ton of stat selectable second best in slot alternatives. We also have gear loadout slots (equipment templates). This makes it perfectly viable to set up a second set of test gear for less than ten gold.... in any stat set we want.
    If you are looking to "try out" another stat set, exotic armor is all you need.
    Ascended trinkets are ridiculously easy to come by. Investing some time in Bloodstone fen can give you 4 of your 6 trinkets (Two rings, one backpack, one amulet) a stat reset option for the ridiculously low price of 100 unbound magic for all 4. Amulets and Accessories can be had for karma and 30 minutes of opening chests in Bjora every day making them largely disposable. A caladbolg gives most builds the option of a stat selctable ascended weapon with a reset option for 1000 unbound magic.
    Isn't the cost of stat-selectable Ascended Armor at an all-time low thanks to Senior Crystallographer Smoxxi anyways?
    Don't most players who do frequent t4 fractals also have a bank tab filled with Ascended Armor boxes?

    Opt 1: Easiest but maybe not best - Make all ascended equipment always stat selectable just like legendaries.

    This considerably devalues Legendary equipment by removing it's value beyond the skin

    Opt 2: Make ascended stat selectable but one have to unlock the stats. E.g. doing some achievements to onlock viper stats?

    This considerably devalues Legendary equipment by removing it's value beyond the skin

    Opt 3: Same as Opt 2 but add Gem Store item to unlock all Stats?

    This considerably devalues Legendary equipment by removing it's value beyond the skin

    Opt 4: End of Dragon buyers get stat selection?

    This considerably devalues Legendary equipment by removing it's value beyond the skin
    .... and like it or not, the "Legendary Grind" is the main current driving force of the economy.

    How about :
    Opt 1: You leverage current sources of second-BiS gear for testing out your builds with cheap exotic stat selectable armor boxes and easily acquired ascended trinkets.
    Opt 2: You make legendary gear.

    "We recognize that some players are not able to complete all content." Gaile Gray 01.10.19

  • Super Hayes.6890Super Hayes.6890 Member ✭✭✭✭

    There are good points here as to why the system is fine as is and you have provided really helpful examples on how to experiment with builds cost effectively. I tend to feel the same way as the OP though. The build experimenting process in this game doesn't feel good to me. Arguably they need these gold sinks for the health of the game and I do not have a better way to suggest to replace this gold sink. This is why I have reluctantly decided to be okay with the way it is. I cope with it by letting my gaming buddy know I want to try a new build and need new equipment. The two of us farm together after that to make the grind more fun. I'm one of those people that rarely has more than five gold at any given time though so take my opinion with a grain of salt.

    The next time you get angry at someone try walking a mile in their shoes. After that, who cares! You're a mile away and you have their shoes! -Someone with more awesome quotes than me

  • Veprovina.4876Veprovina.4876 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @namelesswc.9217 said:

    @Veprovina.4876 said:
    Total estimate to change stats with kind of overblown estimates in worst case scenario is then around 200 gold or about 2 weeks of running T4 dailies, plus LW3 farming.

    So about 200g or 2 weeks just to try out something different for a run to have some fun and then another 200g or 2 weeks to get your old build back. What if you notice in the middle of the run that it doesn't work out as planned and that other stat with more toughness is better? 2 Weeks more of t4 dailies? Someone who only plays on weekends might want to do that too?

    Like i said. This is the MOST EXTREME case. It will never be 200 gold to change all that. This is only assuming the most expensive overblown costs on ascended gear with no materials and everything bought from TP, i mean, did you even read the rest of my post? There's tons of exotic gear that's free and stat selectable that you can try out. And you shouldn't be "testing builds" in the middle of CM100 fractals anyway because it won't work. There's meta builds for a reason.

    And if you want the ability to mess around a lot - that's what legendaries are for.

    Also, someone who only plays on weekeds rarely has the need to change builds so much, or even a desire, so that's not a good example. And if they do well, then GW2 just isn't the game for them now, is it? This is how it works in GW2.

  • Veprovina.4876Veprovina.4876 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 8, 2021

    @mindcircus.1506 said:
    Ascended trinkets are ridiculously easy to come by. Investing some time in Bloodstone fen can give you 4 of your 6 trinkets (Two rings, one backpack, one amulet) a stat >reset option for the ridiculously low price of 100 unbound magic for all 4.

    Sorry, i know it's off topic but you can use 2 of the same Blood ruby ring at once? Just curious. Or is this the case of one attuned and another not attuned ring?

    But on topic - i agree with everything you said. It's ridiculously easy to experiment with builds in this game with exotic equipment and ascended free stuff from LW3. Most other games never let you switch builds so easy and you have to pay for stat resets etc.

  • mindcircus.1506mindcircus.1506 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Veprovina.4876 said:

    @mindcircus.1506 said:
    Ascended trinkets are ridiculously easy to come by. Investing some time in Bloodstone fen can give you 4 of your 6 trinkets (Two rings, one backpack, one amulet) a stat >reset option for the ridiculously low price of 100 unbound magic for all 4.

    Sorry, i know it's off topic but you can use 2 of the same Blood ruby ring at once? Just curious. Or is this the case of one attuned and another not attuned ring?

    This is Correct

    "We recognize that some players are not able to complete all content." Gaile Gray 01.10.19

  • Veprovina.4876Veprovina.4876 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @mindcircus.1506 said:

    @Veprovina.4876 said:

    @mindcircus.1506 said:
    Ascended trinkets are ridiculously easy to come by. Investing some time in Bloodstone fen can give you 4 of your 6 trinkets (Two rings, one backpack, one amulet) a stat >reset option for the ridiculously low price of 100 unbound magic for all 4.

    Sorry, i know it's off topic but you can use 2 of the same Blood ruby ring at once? Just curious. Or is this the case of one attuned and another not attuned ring?

    This is Correct

    I see thanks. I can't believe i didn't think of that LOL i just used the Winterberry ring or another one for my stat change... WIll get another bloodstone one and attune it then! :smile: Way easier to change the stats too then, 100 unbound magic makes those ascended ones basically legendary, especially if you're not having infusions in them.

    Also i edited another response here so i'll jsut repeat it in case...
    I agree with everything you said, it's ridiculously easy to experiment with exotic and free ascended items from LW3. Most other MMOs have you pay for stat changes way more than GW2 does. And since exotic is second best to ascended, and ascended is like 5-10% better, the difference is really negligable in determening if a build works. If it doesn't work on exotics, it won't work on ascended either.

  • Veprovina.4876Veprovina.4876 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 8, 2021

    @Super Hayes.6890 said:
    There are good points here as to why the system is fine as is and you have provided really helpful examples on how to experiment with builds cost effectively. I tend to feel the same way as the OP though. The build experimenting process in this game doesn't feel good to me. Arguably they need these gold sinks for the health of the game and I do not have a better way to suggest to replace this gold sink. This is why I have reluctantly decided to be okay with the way it is. I cope with it by letting my gaming buddy know I want to try a new build and need new equipment. The two of us farm together after that to make the grind more fun. I'm one of those people that rarely has more than five gold at any given time though so take my opinion with a grain of salt.

    This is probably the best way to "deal" with the stat changes. Get a friend and just play. The gear will come naturally after.

    You can also play WvW and get to bronze tier each week which will give you a free armor box with a piece of stat selectable exotic in it.

    Finishing bronze tier takes like, a few hours at the worst case scenario if your server is last, you didn't finish wood week before and you're below rank 150.
    If you finish wood, next week getting the armor box is considerabely easier, and with time, the time required to finish bronze after rank 150 is reduced even further.
    You can also select Legacy armor and Legacy weapon reward tracks for another weapon or armor box with selectable stats, and with guild boosts and amulet enrichments, this also completes really fast. Then just follow a commander and you'll be swimming in stat selectable gear for free while in the meantime getting legendary components, some mats and other stuff. I know a lot of people don't like WvW, but it's really ridiculously easy to get exotics in WvW for basically nothing. You don't even have to play it that much per week if you're only interested in the armor boxes and reward tracks.

    I don't know how to use the wiki calculator to calculate how much time it'll take to finish bronze tier, but you can try it yourself or someone else can calculate it for you. But it's not a huge time commintment, especially if you find an outnumbered map and just flip camps every few minutes. to keep your participation above T3.

  • Sylvyn.4750Sylvyn.4750 Member ✭✭✭

    @Veprovina.4876 said:
    Let's see...

    https://gw2efficiency.com/crafting/calculator/a~0!b~1!c~0!d~6-73227

    This is how much it costs to convert your entire ascended armor set to one of the pricier stat combinations. About 40 gold.
    This is basically 2 dailies of running T3 or T4 fractals.

    https://gw2efficiency.com/crafting/calculator/a~0!b~1!c~0!d~4-72875

    If you have 4 weapons, it's another 20 gold to change stats on them. One day of T3/T4 fractals.

    Let's see, play WvW exclusively, make 2g per day on the dailies with the rest of one's drops being complete RNG...allows for stat swaps once a month...hmm...I see some inequity between game modes here...I guess "server pride" is the one prize/consolation that no other mode gets.

  • Veprovina.4876Veprovina.4876 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Sylvyn.4750 said:

    @Veprovina.4876 said:
    Let's see...

    https://gw2efficiency.com/crafting/calculator/a~0!b~1!c~0!d~6-73227

    This is how much it costs to convert your entire ascended armor set to one of the pricier stat combinations. About 40 gold.
    This is basically 2 dailies of running T3 or T4 fractals.

    https://gw2efficiency.com/crafting/calculator/a~0!b~1!c~0!d~4-72875

    If you have 4 weapons, it's another 20 gold to change stats on them. One day of T3/T4 fractals.

    Let's see, play WvW exclusively, make 2g per day on the dailies with the rest of one's drops being complete RNG...allows for stat swaps once a month...hmm...I see some inequity between game modes here...I guess "server pride" is the one prize/consolation that no other mode gets.

    If you play WvW exclusively, you have ton of literally free stat selectable exotic armors and weapons, plus grandmaster shards that you can use to buy ascended items if you want without crafting. Takes a while for ascended that way, but as it's already been established - the thread is about theorycrafting. You don't need ascended for theorycrafting, all you need is exotics. And as an exclusive WvW players, you should have stacks of armor and weapon boxes from bronze tier rewards and reward tracks.

    So i don't see the problem really, or what your argument is all about.
    I'm also playing WvW more or less exclusively, and i've been able to gear another character like 2 or 3 times just by using the boxes i saved up, and i still have some leftover armors for other characters as well...

    The point is - you shouldn't be using ascended for theorycrafting AT ALL, if a build doesn't work on exotics (which most are free), it will not work on ascended.
    The only thing OP can't do is theorycraft in the middle of CM100 fractal, and franky, that's good, you shouldn't be able to do something like that anyway in such hard content designed for only the most efficient builds.

    You can play WvW with just exotics and runes/sigils just fine. Any bonus you get from ascended and infusions is not very large. Plus, if you find a good build that works on full exotics, it'll be sligtly better on ascended so if you like it that much, you can start getting ascended for it. But it's not required.

  • namelesswc.9217namelesswc.9217 Member ✭✭
    edited January 8, 2021

    @Veprovina.4876 said:
    Like i said. This is the MOST EXTREME case. It will never be 200 gold to change all that. This is only assuming the most expensive overblown costs on ascended gear with no materials and everything bought from TP, i mean, did you even read the rest of my post? There's tons of exotic gear that's free and stat selectable that you can try out. And you shouldn't be "testing builds" in the middle of CM100 fractals anyway because it won't work. There's meta builds for a reason.

    And if you want the ability to mess around a lot - that's what legendaries are for.

    That example from me was a extreme example aswell. It doesn't matter if it cost 50g or 200g. It was to point out how ridiculous much it costs just to test a different stat and switch back to it.

    All I'm saying is with the current system you cannot simply test and discard without legendary equipment. If you have free stat change just like free skill change or free trait change you would see more build variety in the game. Ease of use of different features have constantly been improved in gw2. Also respecting traits used to cost gold too in gw2 so making stat change free is a plausible option from my perspective. And it is worth the legendary devaluation in my opinion since it would make gameplay more interesting and diversivied.

    However anet isn't like it used to be and I'm not even sure if they currently have the resources to make changes like that. Now it's just grindy content after grindy content.

  • Justine.6351Justine.6351 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Its not really that hard to "experiment" gear but I suspect most end up just mathing it out first before giving it a shot. The reason "people don't experiment outside of the meta" is more to do with people trusting someone else already did all the math and testing and less to do with the cost. Some people don't have hours upon hours of free time and just want a build that works efficiently so when they logout they can go back to real life responsibilities like raising a family.

    Anet buff me :-(
    Make me good at game!

  • Obtena.7952Obtena.7952 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 8, 2021

    @namelesswc.9217 said:
    However anet isn't like it used to be and I'm not even sure if they currently have the resources to make changes like that. Now it's just grindy content after grindy content.

    That's hardly a fair assessment considering you already admitted you barely play the game anyways. I mean, if you only play once a week ... even logging in is a grind. The fact remains that while there are costs, the costs are dependent on the player and how much they want to fiddle. Again, as it's been pointed out ... you can investigate your builds without spending a dime to test them. It's probably the BETTER approach for someone who plays as little as you indicated.

    If you're on a highway and roadrunner goes "beep beep"
    Just step aside or you might end up in a heap

  • AliamRationem.5172AliamRationem.5172 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I am not opposed to more sources of exotic stat-selectable armor, weapons, and trinkets. I think the current system works out great for established players. There are a variety of sources for ascended and exotic stat-selectable gear. When you have some resources to call upon and play a variety of content, testing builds isn't prohibitive. But it could be easier for newer players, I think.

    A better template system that allows some gear storage for different builds and actually allows you to swap entire builds to specific presets in a single key would help, also. I heard they may be working on something like that, but with ANet who knows?

  • Veprovina.4876Veprovina.4876 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 8, 2021

    @namelesswc.9217 said:

    @Veprovina.4876 said:
    Like i said. This is the MOST EXTREME case. It will never be 200 gold to change all that. This is only assuming the most expensive overblown costs on ascended gear with no materials and everything bought from TP, i mean, did you even read the rest of my post? There's tons of exotic gear that's free and stat selectable that you can try out. And you shouldn't be "testing builds" in the middle of CM100 fractals anyway because it won't work. There's meta builds for a reason.

    And if you want the ability to mess around a lot - that's what legendaries are for.

    That example from me was a extreme example aswell. It doesn't matter if it cost 50g or 200g. It was to point out how ridiculous much it costs just to test a different stat and switch back to it.

    All I'm saying is with the current system you cannot simply test and discard without legendary equipment. If you have free stat change just like free skill change or free trait change you would see more build variety in the game. Ease of use of different features have constantly been improved in gw2. Also respecting traits used to cost gold too in gw2 so making stat change free is a plausible option from my perspective. And it is worth the legendary devaluation in my opinion since it would make gameplay more interesting and diversivied.

    However anet isn't like it used to be and I'm not even sure if they currently have the resources to make changes like that. Now it's just grindy content after grindy content.

    There IS a difference between 50 gold and 200 gold. It's 150 gold difference.

    Fitrst, you're still ignoring what people are telling you. You should't be theorycrafting and testing builds on ascended gear. That's not what it's for, Ascended is designed to be more "permanent" solution to work towards once you're happy with your exotic build. It's designed that way, and it's costly for that very reason. They don't want you to theorycraft on ascended without a gold sink.

    Second, you think there would be more build variety if people could change stats whenever they want? Ask people with full legendaries how many times they change stats? I did 2 of them and you know what i did? I converted my ascended Minstrel's armor to legendary, equipped it and selected Minstrel's again... People mostly have legendaries to share amongst characters if they have many, not so that they can change their stats mid CM100 fractal and "try stuff out" or have more build variety. People have "tried stuff out" for ages on exotics, ascendeds and legendaries, and came to the conclusion that having full berserker's on X raid and fractal is the most efficient DPS to complete that raid/fractal efficiently compared to any other tested combinations and that's what a "meta" is. Having free build variety won't change the meta, nor will it let you complete the hardest content how you like, and it ESPECIALLY won't let you PUG into raid groups that are expecting meta builds. Because that's what meta is - most efficient tactic available. Even if you could change stats mid combat, berserker's/viper's would still be most efficient because of the raw damage they bring so "build variety" is a moot point because it's not dependant on your gear, it's dependant on the encounters that require a certain tactic. And since bosses are timed in raids, DPS is king. The only thing that could change that is if Anet makes some attacks unblockable party wipes if you're in full berserker with no defense, so then the meta would probably be Commander's or Wanderer's for power builds or Trailblazer for condi. And it still wouldn't change if they allow free theorycrafting. Then everyone would just expect trailblazer's instead of viper's.

    Third, legendary value has nothing to do with build diversity, it's just a skin/convenience thing for alt characters or multiple builds on 1 character. I'm running Minstrel's chrono and Viper's mirage. legendary helps there but is extremely not required as i can just use exotics for that for free and be fine with it. Most people are like that.

    Bottom line is, you don't understand the game you're playing i'm afraid. That's ok, nothing wrong with that, but it's clear from your comments that you don't know why something works the way it does. Like confusing build variety with having free stat changes.

  • Linken.6345Linken.6345 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @namelesswc.9217 said:

    @Veprovina.4876 said:
    Like i said. This is the MOST EXTREME case. It will never be 200 gold to change all that. This is only assuming the most expensive overblown costs on ascended gear with no materials and everything bought from TP, i mean, did you even read the rest of my post? There's tons of exotic gear that's free and stat selectable that you can try out. And you shouldn't be "testing builds" in the middle of CM100 fractals anyway because it won't work. There's meta builds for a reason.

    And if you want the ability to mess around a lot - that's what legendaries are for.

    That example from me was a extreme example aswell. It doesn't matter if it cost 50g or 200g. It was to point out how ridiculous much it costs just to test a different stat and switch back to it.

    All I'm saying is with the current system you cannot simply test and discard without legendary equipment. If you have free stat change just like free skill change or free trait change you would see more build variety in the game. Ease of use of different features have constantly been improved in gw2. Also respecting traits used to cost gold too in gw2 so making stat change free is a plausible option from my perspective. And it is worth the legendary devaluation in my opinion since it would make gameplay more interesting and diversivied.

    However anet isn't like it used to be and I'm not even sure if they currently have the resources to make changes like that. Now it's just grindy content after grindy content.

    It did not cost to respec traits ever in gw2.
    You had to unlock to be able to place the traits as a one time fee per character tho.

  • mindcircus.1506mindcircus.1506 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Veprovina.4876 said:

    @mindcircus.1506 said:

    @Veprovina.4876 said:

    @mindcircus.1506 said:
    Ascended trinkets are ridiculously easy to come by. Investing some time in Bloodstone fen can give you 4 of your 6 trinkets (Two rings, one backpack, one amulet) a stat >reset option for the ridiculously low price of 100 unbound magic for all 4.

    Sorry, i know it's off topic but you can use 2 of the same Blood ruby ring at once? Just curious. Or is this the case of one attuned and another not attuned ring?

    This is Correct

    I see thanks. I can't believe i didn't think of that LOL i just used the Winterberry ring or another one for my stat change... WIll get another bloodstone one and attune it then! :smile: Way easier to change the stats too then, 100 unbound magic makes those ascended ones basically legendary, especially if you're not having infusions in them.

    Here's another fun fact.
    Attuning a S3 or S4 currency ring will also reset it's stats.

    "We recognize that some players are not able to complete all content." Gaile Gray 01.10.19

  • Tzarakiel.7490Tzarakiel.7490 Member ✭✭✭
    edited January 9, 2021

    Meta, what is that? Can I eat it?
    Jokes aside I've never ever used meta builds on purpose. There is no point aiming for something I wouldn't enjoy playing or couldn't reach the necessary skill level to pull off.
    People who feel the need to use meta builds others created are just too boring or impatient to experiment.
    If anything the biggest motivation I had to make my own builds was to save on gold. If swapping gear/stats was free I would not have discovered half the builds I use now.

    PvP? What's that? Never heard of it.

  • Veprovina.4876Veprovina.4876 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Linken.6345 said:

    @namelesswc.9217 said:

    @Veprovina.4876 said:
    Like i said. This is the MOST EXTREME case. It will never be 200 gold to change all that. This is only assuming the most expensive overblown costs on ascended gear with no materials and everything bought from TP, i mean, did you even read the rest of my post? There's tons of exotic gear that's free and stat selectable that you can try out. And you shouldn't be "testing builds" in the middle of CM100 fractals anyway because it won't work. There's meta builds for a reason.

    And if you want the ability to mess around a lot - that's what legendaries are for.

    That example from me was a extreme example aswell. It doesn't matter if it cost 50g or 200g. It was to point out how ridiculous much it costs just to test a different stat and switch back to it.

    All I'm saying is with the current system you cannot simply test and discard without legendary equipment. If you have free stat change just like free skill change or free trait change you would see more build variety in the game. Ease of use of different features have constantly been improved in gw2. Also respecting traits used to cost gold too in gw2 so making stat change free is a plausible option from my perspective. And it is worth the legendary devaluation in my opinion since it would make gameplay more interesting and diversivied.

    However anet isn't like it used to be and I'm not even sure if they currently have the resources to make changes like that. Now it's just grindy content after grindy content.

    It did not cost to respec traits ever in gw2.
    You had to unlock to be able to place the traits as a one time fee per character tho.

    There was a respec option, i think it cost spirit shards or something...

    @mindcircus.1506 said:

    @Veprovina.4876 said:

    @mindcircus.1506 said:

    @Veprovina.4876 said:

    @mindcircus.1506 said:
    Ascended trinkets are ridiculously easy to come by. Investing some time in Bloodstone fen can give you 4 of your 6 trinkets (Two rings, one backpack, one amulet) a stat >reset option for the ridiculously low price of 100 unbound magic for all 4.

    Sorry, i know it's off topic but you can use 2 of the same Blood ruby ring at once? Just curious. Or is this the case of one attuned and another not attuned ring?

    This is Correct

    I see thanks. I can't believe i didn't think of that LOL i just used the Winterberry ring or another one for my stat change... WIll get another bloodstone one and attune it then! :smile: Way easier to change the stats too then, 100 unbound magic makes those ascended ones basically legendary, especially if you're not having infusions in them.

    Here's another fun fact.
    Attuning a S3 or S4 currency ring will also reset it's stats.

    Yeah, that i know. Handy for winterberry and other rings... :smile:

  • Orack.9756Orack.9756 Member ✭✭

    @namelesswc.9217 said:

    @kharmin.7683 said:
    Stat swapping, outside of legendary, is a gold sink. I think that's by design. I don't see the pressing need to alter it.

    The result is that players don't swap unless their the meta build is suggesting a different stat.

    The ability to tryout otherwise never used stats or weird stat combinations or sigils is withheld for players with legendary equipment.

    There is this cool wintersday sigil which launches snowballs on foes. Who wants to try that out if you have to buy a new 5g sigil of force or 9g sigil of malice after throwing some snowballs?

    Snowball is amazing for a confusion chrono build :)
    And to answer the TLDR : Lazy ppl won't try anything.

    I'm a casual, I play here and there with long break. I tested and still do many MANY build for most class, lot of them to solo hard thing.
    If you're afraid to "waste" gold, then, yes, don't do it, but then don't complain.
    This game is incredibly easy to farm and get money to try out thing. I mean dude, you don't even need to buy/farm multiple gear each time you want to try another build !
    Have you ever play another mmorpg to complain about this in THIS mmo ? I highly doubt.

    The only rune who was stupidly expensive was the torment one, and even then it took me just 1 day to get the gold for them.. How is that long or difficult ?

  • Linken.6345Linken.6345 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Veprovina.4876 said:

    @Linken.6345 said:

    @namelesswc.9217 said:

    @Veprovina.4876 said:
    Like i said. This is the MOST EXTREME case. It will never be 200 gold to change all that. This is only assuming the most expensive overblown costs on ascended gear with no materials and everything bought from TP, i mean, did you even read the rest of my post? There's tons of exotic gear that's free and stat selectable that you can try out. And you shouldn't be "testing builds" in the middle of CM100 fractals anyway because it won't work. There's meta builds for a reason.

    And if you want the ability to mess around a lot - that's what legendaries are for.

    That example from me was a extreme example aswell. It doesn't matter if it cost 50g or 200g. It was to point out how ridiculous much it costs just to test a different stat and switch back to it.

    All I'm saying is with the current system you cannot simply test and discard without legendary equipment. If you have free stat change just like free skill change or free trait change you would see more build variety in the game. Ease of use of different features have constantly been improved in gw2. Also respecting traits used to cost gold too in gw2 so making stat change free is a plausible option from my perspective. And it is worth the legendary devaluation in my opinion since it would make gameplay more interesting and diversivied.

    However anet isn't like it used to be and I'm not even sure if they currently have the resources to make changes like that. Now it's just grindy content after grindy content.

    It did not cost to respec traits ever in gw2.
    You had to unlock to be able to place the traits as a one time fee per character tho.

    There was a respec option, i think it cost spirit shards or something...

    @mindcircus.1506 said:

    @Veprovina.4876 said:

    @mindcircus.1506 said:

    @Veprovina.4876 said:

    @mindcircus.1506 said:
    Ascended trinkets are ridiculously easy to come by. Investing some time in Bloodstone fen can give you 4 of your 6 trinkets (Two rings, one backpack, one amulet) a stat >reset option for the ridiculously low price of 100 unbound magic for all 4.

    Sorry, i know it's off topic but you can use 2 of the same Blood ruby ring at once? Just curious. Or is this the case of one attuned and another not attuned ring?

    This is Correct

    I see thanks. I can't believe i didn't think of that LOL i just used the Winterberry ring or another one for my stat change... WIll get another bloodstone one and attune it then! :smile: Way easier to change the stats too then, 100 unbound magic makes those ascended ones basically legendary, especially if you're not having infusions in them.

    Here's another fun fact.
    Attuning a S3 or S4 currency ring will also reset it's stats.

    Yeah, that i know. Handy for winterberry and other rings... :smile:

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Say_Goodbye_to_Armor_Repair_Costs_and_Hello_to_Free_Trait_Resets

    kitten your right, Im getting old.

  • Veprovina.4876Veprovina.4876 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Orack.9756 said:

    @namelesswc.9217 said:

    @kharmin.7683 said:
    Stat swapping, outside of legendary, is a gold sink. I think that's by design. I don't see the pressing need to alter it.

    The result is that players don't swap unless their the meta build is suggesting a different stat.

    The ability to tryout otherwise never used stats or weird stat combinations or sigils is withheld for players with legendary equipment.

    There is this cool wintersday sigil which launches snowballs on foes. Who wants to try that out if you have to buy a new 5g sigil of force or 9g sigil of malice after throwing some snowballs?

    Snowball is amazing for a confusion chrono build :)
    And to answer the TLDR : Lazy ppl won't try anything.

    I'm a casual, I play here and there with long break. I tested and still do many MANY build for most class, lot of them to solo hard thing.
    If you're afraid to "waste" gold, then, yes, don't do it, but then don't complain.
    This game is incredibly easy to farm and get money to try out thing. I mean dude, you don't even need to buy/farm multiple gear each time you want to try another build !
    Have you ever play another mmorpg to complain about this in THIS mmo ? I highly doubt.

    The only rune who was stupidly expensive was the torment one, and even then it took me just 1 day to get the gold for them.. How is that long or difficult ?

    The tormenting rune is expensive because it's meta for Revs currently. Which just proves the point that, if OP wants to experiment with non conventional non menta builds, it's going to be way cheaper than that. Most runes are like, 2-5 silver or whatever, very experiment friendly. And if you who calls himself casual can experiment, then that's /thread right there and really the proof that it's easy to change builds for everyone.

    And since giving free stat resets to everything won't change the meta, it is what it is.

    I mean, you can have multiple armor sets. One meta set, then get exotics for experimentation, no need to change the meta set, just put it in the bank, have fun with exotics, then swap back to meta set when needed.

    So yeah, i agree with you, the game is very casual friendly. Legendaries are not, but they're not really needed, they're just a convenience.

    @Linken.6345 said:

    @Veprovina.4876 said:

    @Linken.6345 said:

    @namelesswc.9217 said:

    @Veprovina.4876 said:
    Like i said. This is the MOST EXTREME case. It will never be 200 gold to change all that. This is only assuming the most expensive overblown costs on ascended gear with no materials and everything bought from TP, i mean, did you even read the rest of my post? There's tons of exotic gear that's free and stat selectable that you can try out. And you shouldn't be "testing builds" in the middle of CM100 fractals anyway because it won't work. There's meta builds for a reason.

    And if you want the ability to mess around a lot - that's what legendaries are for.

    That example from me was a extreme example aswell. It doesn't matter if it cost 50g or 200g. It was to point out how ridiculous much it costs just to test a different stat and switch back to it.

    All I'm saying is with the current system you cannot simply test and discard without legendary equipment. If you have free stat change just like free skill change or free trait change you would see more build variety in the game. Ease of use of different features have constantly been improved in gw2. Also respecting traits used to cost gold too in gw2 so making stat change free is a plausible option from my perspective. And it is worth the legendary devaluation in my opinion since it would make gameplay more interesting and diversivied.

    However anet isn't like it used to be and I'm not even sure if they currently have the resources to make changes like that. Now it's just grindy content after grindy content.

    It did not cost to respec traits ever in gw2.
    You had to unlock to be able to place the traits as a one time fee per character tho.

    There was a respec option, i think it cost spirit shards or something...

    @mindcircus.1506 said:

    @Veprovina.4876 said:

    @mindcircus.1506 said:

    @Veprovina.4876 said:

    @mindcircus.1506 said:
    Ascended trinkets are ridiculously easy to come by. Investing some time in Bloodstone fen can give you 4 of your 6 trinkets (Two rings, one backpack, one amulet) a stat >reset option for the ridiculously low price of 100 unbound magic for all 4.

    Sorry, i know it's off topic but you can use 2 of the same Blood ruby ring at once? Just curious. Or is this the case of one attuned and another not attuned ring?

    This is Correct

    I see thanks. I can't believe i didn't think of that LOL i just used the Winterberry ring or another one for my stat change... WIll get another bloodstone one and attune it then! :smile: Way easier to change the stats too then, 100 unbound magic makes those ascended ones basically legendary, especially if you're not having infusions in them.

    Here's another fun fact.
    Attuning a S3 or S4 currency ring will also reset it's stats.

    Yeah, that i know. Handy for winterberry and other rings... :smile:

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Say_Goodbye_to_Armor_Repair_Costs_and_Hello_to_Free_Trait_Resets

    kitten your right, Im getting old.

    Ah you found it! I was searching for that, and the original trait reset cost and only found this:
    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Instant_Trait_Reset

    So it was a gem store item, meaning you couldn't reset your traits in game maybe? Or not as often? I forgot what the system was, maybe someone can link it and remind me. But yeah, traits were semi-permanent in the beginning. And worked differently, you had to unlock trait tiers, and stuff...

    Here's the old trait tab:

    Ah, the memories. :tongue:
    Most people didn't even bother with grandmaster traits becasue there was a finite number of trait points (now hero points), and you couldn't unlock everyting, but could mix and match.

  • Khisanth.2948Khisanth.2948 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Except for high level fractals all the experimenting can be done with exotics and the only reason high level fractals can't be done is because of AR. Making AR an account bound thing would solve that problem as well. If this is for fractals you don't really need to craft that much anyway. For the most part you'll be crafting just the coat and leggings since the rest of the pieces drop relatively frequently from fractals.

    As for upgrades ... there is https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Endless_Upgrade_Extractor_Contract . It is pricey but that is around the same price at a set of legendary runes and this would cover sigils as well.

  • mindcircus.1506mindcircus.1506 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Khisanth.2948 said:
    Except for high level fractals all the experimenting can be done with exotics and the only reason high level fractals can't be done is because of AR. Making AR an account bound thing would solve that problem as well. If this is for fractals you don't really need to craft that much anyway.

    Or we can just accept that the hardest 5 man content in the game is not an appropriate place for testing. We can leverage existing easier content that doesnt require max AR to test in exotic gear (t1-2 fractals, explorable dungeons, full CM DRMs) and get a proper idea.
    Making AR account bound brings with it some issues that would likely cause some real pain to those players regularly playing t4's.

    "We recognize that some players are not able to complete all content." Gaile Gray 01.10.19

  • voltaicbore.8012voltaicbore.8012 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @lokh.2695 said:

    @namelesswc.9217 said:
    Yeah not worth the time for me.

    So we have this settled then.
    Anet won't make the change you suggest and you don't want to take the actions necessary to solve the "problem" on your side of the screen. If it's not worth your time, I doubt it's much of a problem.

    I 100% agree with @lokh.2695 . The discussion essentially ends here.

    There is a way to achieve the cost-free swapping you desire in the game, it just has a threshold price you are not willing to pay. That's like walking into a store, seeing a bottle of water, but not wanting to pay three bucks for it; instead you walk up to the clerk and say "hey man, access to potable water is a human right. Gimme this bottle for free."

    You would be right about water being a resource everyone should have. But at that store, if you want a bottle of water from their cooler, you pay the price that store charges for it.

    You might be right about low-cost re-gearing being an essential part of MMOs (which I would disagree with, but that's another discussion). But in GW2, if you want literally free stat swapping, you have to pay the price of making legendaries.

  • I do see the reason for wanting this. It can be a pain to get gear sometimes. It will totally negate legendary armor and weapons if they did this. This is the prime reason I did legendary was to be able to experiment. I do feel however, that if you want to try out a build, I think they need to make upgrade extractors as easily available as infusion extractors. At least this way you can try different runes without ruining your existing. Honestly I never spend a ton of money gearing out a new build. I get plenty of armor chests through fractals and trinkets are so easy to get without spending gold. The expensive part is infusions, runes, sigils usually.