Is Burn Guardian OP right now, or are other condi classes just under-performing? — Guild Wars 2 Forums
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Is Burn Guardian OP right now, or are other condi classes just under-performing?

Wuffy.9732Wuffy.9732 Member ✭✭✭

So I notice in fractals and raids that more and people tend to be running condi firebrand. This is more prevalent in fractals where condi FB is being requested more frequently for 100cm now too, and this may or may not discourage players who do not play condi FB, by discrimination. I normally main Necro(reaper/scourge) and Warrior(berserker), but even I decided to go and make a condi FB recently and tested out my dps in the Aerodome Training Area. And I gotta say, compared to both my reaper and berserker, condi fb just blows them away by up to 5k-10k more dps. With far easier rotations.

So this pegs the question, is the current state of condi FB OP? For other condi classes, they don't even come close. Condi FB burst damage is insane; 33k-40k burn damage!? and 30-35k sustain condi damage? Something doesn't seem right with that lol... I used these build/guides as a reference before I made a condi FB:

Now I'm **not **calling for nerfs either. If anet will acknowledge that other classes might just be under performing, then perhaps buffing other condi classes maybe the right thing to do. For instance, I've always been disappointed in how anet has handled scourge when it comes to condition damage. I mean sure, against multiple mobs, scourge performs outstandingly (because of epidemic usually). But against single target enemies, scourge under-performs really badly... And that's kind of disappointing for a "Necromancer" if you ask me...

What are yalls thoughts? Is condi FB too OP or should anet consider reworking other classes where condition damage is still an option.

Comments

  • Justine.6351Justine.6351 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I'm not much of a pver but one aspect I would have to presume is that its favored due to being simple.
    If something is simple and effective then you can relatively trust any pug to be at a minimal but still effective enough level.

    Anyone from gw1 can relate this concept back to ursanway. It was good because so long as they had that skill on their bar you knew they had a good skill bar ;)

    Anet buff me :-(
    Make me good at game!

  • Rodrick.1942Rodrick.1942 Member ✭✭✭
    edited January 8, 2021

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @Wuffy.9732 said:
    So this pegs the question, is the current state of condi FB OP? For other condi classes, they don't even come close.

    Looking at SC benchmarks, condi Tempest and Weaver are around 38k dps. So is condi Renegade. Condi Berserker is at 37k. The best condition FB build is at ~36.5, slightly above condi holo, and only 1k better than condi Sb. The build you've shown in the first movie starts with a 38k burst, but then starts going down to 32k, which is not really all that amazing.

    So, no, in any sustained fight condi FB does not seem OP at all.

    Hint: don't confuse shortterm burst values (which burn guard is indeed good at) with longterm sustained dps.

    Sadly, when people are being told that "condi FB" is
    better in PVE, people will start to play it. Other condi class might have better avg dps than FB but FB can lash out tons of burning stacks in a very short period of time.

    So base on these condition, the only way to win dps race in fractal/raid is you play other class that have much higher burst damage than condi FB---OR you play FB too.

  • Linken.6345Linken.6345 Member ✭✭✭✭

    They are also liked on 100cm because of sanctuarys cc.

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Rodrick.1942 said:
    Sadly, when people are being told that "condi FB" is
    better in PVE, people will start to play it. Other condi class might have better avg dps than FB but FB can lash out tons of burning stacks in a very short period of time.

    So base on these condition, the only way to win dps race in fractal/raid is you play other class that have much higher burst damage than condi FB---OR you play FB too.

    Fractals, maybe, because encounters there are very short. Raids on the other hand, with their much longer fights put far more emphasis on sustained dps.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • frareanselm.1925frareanselm.1925 Member ✭✭✭
    edited January 10, 2021

    Condi Firebrand only performs great in half of the fractals or raids.
    What makes it Op is the bursty nature of the burn condition by itself. Make a burn condi tempest or weaver and will do the same.
    I think is the right balance, high burty dps at the cost of low HP pool and being in melee range. I'm talking about axe, I dont consider scepter in a full burn build.

    In addition, only works well against stationary bosses, others that move or teleport a lot are harder to make them eat all the burns.

  • Lord of the Fire.6870Lord of the Fire.6870 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 11, 2021

    I say it simple 3 cFBs + HFB + Alarcrene in 100cm is meta and yes there are other options too
    But:

    • They die easier because less HP and no free aegis which is when you have one shoot mechanic with certain instabilities this makes the run much smoother
    • Their rota is often much more complex like condi weaver hust
    • Their dps is often not on pair what cFB can or the players can't do their rota as good as needed for this
    • Some builds don't offer enough cc at all like scourge and condi weaver(only in air). Not enough cc means sure wipe in the sorrow phase.

    To add what Cyninja.2954 said the pros:

    • We are kinda forced to run cFB at least one because of the nerf of the cc utilities there are condi builds which can do good cc but nothing which comes on this level.
    • The reason to pick condi builds is they tick even when the boss moves away this combined with the possibility to burst your dmg out is what makes the build strong

    Where is it weak?

    • On a stationary boss with big hit box means 98cm(Nightmare) Molten Boss.This is because power DPS build doing more dmg on big hitboxes because some skills hit them multiply times also the advantage with the ticking condution while the boss is moving falls away. Yes basically what frareanselm.1925 said is nonsense.

    Where is it strong?

    • Especially good where the boss moves around and has a small hitboxes meaning :
      Twillight Oasis,Mai Trin, Deep Stone , Snow Blind , 99cm , 100 cm

    The point is for the rest it isn't necessary strong but it isn't bad either.

    Personally:
    When this with cFB started when the 100 cm was new our premade group/guild though that cFb will get a nerf relatively quickly because of it absurd dmg in compare to other build especially power and be good on so many other fractals. As a complete premade group this we don't have problems but we can't always run as premades when that happens BS can become a problem because for random groups it has fallen kind out of meta because it is random if you have one or not. I also saw how burn guards overperform in other modes too. It seem guard became what ele was during HoT

  • @Wuffy.9732 said:
    So I notice in fractals and raids that more and people tend to be running condi firebrand. This is more prevalent in fractals where condi FB is being requested more frequently for 100cm now too, and this may or may not discourage players who do not play condi FB, by discrimination. I normally main Necro(reaper/scourge) and Warrior(berserker), but even I decided to go and make a condi FB recently and tested out my dps in the Aerodome Training Area. And I gotta say, compared to both my reaper and berserker, condi fb just blows them away by up to 5k-10k more dps. With far easier rotations.

    So this pegs the question, is the current state of condi FB OP? For other condi classes, they don't even come close. Condi FB burst damage is insane; 33k-40k burn damage!? and 30-35k sustain condi damage? Something doesn't seem right with that lol... I used these build/guides as a reference before I made a condi FB:

    Now I'm **not **calling for nerfs either. If anet will acknowledge that other classes might just be under performing, then perhaps buffing other condi classes maybe the right thing to do. For instance, I've always been disappointed in how anet has handled scourge when it comes to condition damage. I mean sure, against multiple mobs, scourge performs outstandingly (because of epidemic usually). But against single target enemies, scourge under-performs really badly... And that's kind of disappointing for a "Necromancer" if you ask me...

    What are yalls thoughts? Is condi FB too OP or should anet consider reworking other classes where condition damage is still an option.

    Fractals is all about guardians

    They are the meta healers
    One of the top condi dps classes
    One of the top power dps

    They been struggling in fitting in the alac spot so it’s only fair for them to get that boon buff soon or else their new elite spec will be fully dedicated to be alac

  • Infusion.7149Infusion.7149 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 12, 2021

    If you're talking about fractals ultimately it comes down to "free" aegis and the CC of sanctuary for 100. The low ramp time of 70+% burning (as opposed to running 50% burning and 20% bleeding as on some other condi classes) along with power damage means it functions similar to a power build (see power chrono with shatters) when things don't die in less than a few seconds. This also means higher damage within an "exposed" window.

    Sustained damage such as in a raid or strike isn't amazing otherwise without adds because you don't get F1 resets. The only thing that's a real outlier is the mantra of solace skill really.

  • Guardian is in a decent spot but it's not doing better than other professions. If you have a look at snowcrows the benchmark is currently dominated by mesmers with 42k dps. Considering Anet is not going to nerf the current Meta builds I would rather buff those builds who are not in the Meta with a balance patch before EoD is released so the staff can focus on balancing the new elite specialisations.

  • @Touchme.1097 said:
    Guardian is in a decent spot but it's not doing better than other professions. If you have a look at snowcrows the benchmark is currently dominated by mesmers with 42k dps. Considering Anet is not going to nerf the current Meta builds I would rather buff those builds who are not in the Meta with a balance patch before EoD is released so the staff can focus on balancing the new elite specialisations.

    It depend if we talk about raids or fractals , Raids have mostly bosses with big hitboxes in fractal it is the other way around . We basically we said cFB is meta in cm fractal runs without serious competition if you look at your average player.

    Actually I didn't heard before that there is a 42k Chrono build this is more a proof that Arena.NET holding their hands in the air atm because they made their policy before that 40k is the limit and every build above it gets the hammer and yes there are also build which under perform like Mirage ,Spellbreaker, Scrapper(and core), Scourge and ELe in PvE

    On the healing side Revenants Ventri missing 10 people condi cleans, Chrono can be played is half a healer but not so really.

  • Wolfb.7025Wolfb.7025 Member ✭✭✭

    Firebrand is the only condi class that performs exceptionally well on both old CMs due to their high insta burning bursts.

    And also they're unaffected by No Pain No Gain and Vengeance.

    Years just pass like trains
    I wave but they don't sloow dooown~ don't slow doown~♪

  • Nephalem.8921Nephalem.8921 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Lord of the Fire.6870 said:

    @Touchme.1097 said:
    Guardian is in a decent spot but it's not doing better than other professions. If you have a look at snowcrows the benchmark is currently dominated by mesmers with 42k dps. Considering Anet is not going to nerf the current Meta builds I would rather buff those builds who are not in the Meta with a balance patch before EoD is released so the staff can focus on balancing the new elite specialisations.

    It depend if we talk about raids or fractals , Raids have mostly bosses with big hitboxes in fractal it is the other way around . We basically we said cFB is meta in cm fractal runs without serious competition if you look at your average player.

    Actually I didn't heard before that there is a 42k Chrono build this is more a proof that Arena.NET holding their hands in the air atm because they made their policy before that 40k is the limit and every build above it gets the hammer and yes there are also build which under perform like Mirage ,Spellbreaker, Scrapper(and core), Scourge and ELe in PvE

    On the healing side Revenants Ventri missing 10 people condi cleans, Chrono can be played is half a healer but not so really.

    Mirage can reach like 45k if you factor in confusion. Ele is meta in fractals.

  • Infusion.7149Infusion.7149 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 14, 2021

    @Lord of the Fire.6870 said:

    @Touchme.1097 said:
    Guardian is in a decent spot but it's not doing better than other professions. If you have a look at snowcrows the benchmark is currently dominated by mesmers with 42k dps. Considering Anet is not going to nerf the current Meta builds I would rather buff those builds who are not in the Meta with a balance patch before EoD is released so the staff can focus on balancing the new elite specialisations.

    It depend if we talk about raids or fractals , Raids have mostly bosses with big hitboxes in fractal it is the other way around . We basically we said cFB is meta in cm fractal runs without serious competition if you look at your average player.

    Actually I didn't heard before that there is a 42k Chrono build this is more a proof that Arena.NET holding their hands in the air atm because they made their policy before that 40k is the limit and every build above it gets the hammer and yes there are also build which under perform like Mirage ,Spellbreaker, Scrapper(and core), Scourge and ELe in PvE

    On the healing side Revenants Ventri missing 10 people condi cleans, Chrono can be played is half a healer but not so really.

    You're not going to get that chrono benchmark realistically especially in fractals because slow uptime will be atrocious and No Pain No Gain / Vengeance eats into your 15% Vicious Expression damage bonus, so at best you're looking more along the lines of 35K due to Danger Time (10% damage , 15% crit chance vs slowed). On top of that when you shatter it takes time for the clone to pop. Frankly wouldn't care if Danger Time was deleted, because the biggest benefactors are stacked squads with multiple chronos.

    In addition, scrapper really isn't as bad as you make it out to be , it's around 33K. The reason why people don't run it is holo is even more theoretical DPS.
    https://lucky-noobs.com/builds/scrapper-power

    The same goes for spellbreaker (~29K). https://lucky-noobs.com/builds/power-spellbreaker

    Mirage only performs well when confusion ticks often.

  • Noodle Ant.1605Noodle Ant.1605 Member ✭✭✭
    edited January 14, 2021

    condi firebrand has a very short avg condi duration (~6s) and both a high and fast condi reapplication rate (to balance out), allowing it to reap all the advantages of being condi while avoiding a good chunk of the disadvantages of supposedly dealing dmg ‘over time’

    compare this to other condi specs which hover around 8-20s durations, ofc they wont compare, especially since situations that allow condis to tick never really last longer than 5s, and then they have to reapply and re-ramp (which condi firebrand excels in, yay?)

    burning is a factor but its not the same when one is 5 stacks for 3s (6s with 100% dura) applied in 1s vs 3 stacks for 5s (10s) (and applied over 3s in some instances)

    special mention to f1 tome skill #5, basically 15 stacks of burning for the same shortish duration (~7s) at a press of a button, meanwhile other specs have skills that do 10k dmg in 27s lol

  • Doomdesire.9365Doomdesire.9365 Member ✭✭

    Because it's the ultimate PUG class for fractals. High boon independence + not as reliant on breakbar timing + risk free ashes precast + don't get cucked if your rev is slow at stripping prot. It actually gets better the worse your team is, and given the skill level of the vast majority of players, this naturally means that cFB is exceptionally strong. Still, if you have an actually decent fractal group, running cFB is a kitten move(except on 100cm). Past a certain skill level cFB as a fractal DPS is objectively bad due to inherent greediness(no unique offensive support + mediocre cc without sacrificing damage) and will fall behind in encounters where enough people know how to properly burst.