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  • Gyro.9182Gyro.9182 Member ✭✭

    @Linken.6345 said:
    You do know that apple fully droped support for OpenGL in 2018 right?

    Please, not that tired argument again.

    Yes, Apple stopped "support" for OpenGL in 2018, which means that there have not been any (or at least no meaningful ones, perhaps there were a few I did not notice) updates to OpenGL.
    But guess what, my Macs are running the latest OS, latest update (about a month old), and guess whether Guild Wars 2 still runs as well as ever (not great, but usable) using OpenGL on them? By your logic, Guild Wars 2 should have died sometime in 2018...?
    Apple "stopping support" means almost nothing, as the game has continued running, and will continue to run until Apple provides a macOS update that actively removes all OpenGL support instead of "keeping it intact, just outdated". (This won't be before this fall at least, by the way). And even then, nobody would force me to update to that macOS release.
    Instead, Anet is dumping the whole game in about five weeks, although it would have worked just as well as before for Intel-based Mac users, at least until fall. So Anet pulling the plug now, and blaming Apple for it, is scapegoating Apple for a problem Anet has. Sorry.

  • Veprovina.4876Veprovina.4876 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @lare.5129 said:

    @Veprovina.4876 said:
    As for the other Apple stuff like a new chip and Metal (i think?) API, that requires a re-write of the code to work with that.

    yes, some part if project alive should be always rewritten. This is common situation.

    Anet just doesn't have the resources to do it.

    I see it.

    It is what it is, and you have only Apple to blame.

    I don't see any reason blame Ocean wind if ship have trouble.

    This is the price of exclusivity as opposed to inclusivity.

    15% of USE market? exclusivity is Haiku OS market. But not macos.

    but that unfortunately means that not everyone is invited.

    ofc should not everyone is invited. If you think that giant as Apply should run around Anet and suggest better solution - this is wrong vision.
    Everyone should jump and dance around IT Kings, but nut wait spcial invite.

    A cool secure OS and app ecosystem that's entirely under Apple's control with no chance of any "unwanted" software on it. It just so happens that Guild Wars 2 falls under "unwanted" because they use OpenGL.

    And ? Look around, see how to solved other company, how we many time discuss one of GW2 concurrents:
    Blizzard updates 'World of Warcraft' with native support for Apple Silicon
    https://appleinsider.com/articles/20/11/17/blizzard-updates-world-of-warcraft-to-natively-support-apple-silicon

    You sound like a marketing bot, seriously...
    I'm sure everything you said is very helpful to people who can't play Guild Wars 2 anymore because of Apple's changes.
    +1 for comparing a multi million dollar company like Blizzard with 100x more staff than Anet. Totally relevant!

  • Gyro.9182Gyro.9182 Member ✭✭
    edited January 11, 2021

    You gotta love the community here. "Why would anybody play on a Mac in any case?", "Apple sucks", "Apple is to blame for everything", "Anet has explained that Apple is to blame", yatta yatta. (Not necessarily all in this thread).
    Please...
    1. Just spare us Mac users who are somewhere between sad, tired, frustrated and heart-torn your sentiments on the quality of the macOS platform. We don't care to hear them, they don't help us or the situation, and are usually more insulting than helpful. If a relative you love is badly hurt, comparisons that their brother was always better at playing soccer won't help. I know this is not a good analogy, but if you're not a Mac user, or consider the platform inferior by nature without having anything else to provide, do the respectful thing, keep your mouth shut (or keyboard untouched), and go somewhere else.
    2. I don't believe Anet's statement is really fully truthful. (I'll give you some time to get outraged or whatever). Why? Yes, Apple has introduced a new CPU - so Anet could simply state "sorry, we lack the resources to port it to M1, you can try it, but no promises, and no porting to it planned for now". I assume Apple users would understand that - at least those who work with software development do. Yes, Apple "no longer supports OpenGL" - but Apple did that in 2018, and has kept the same version of OpenGL since, in all including the newest macOS versions for Intel-based Macs (it's possibly/probably missing on M1, but I am not sure about that). And guess what, GW2 runs on macOS 11.1 (the latest version there is) just as well (or not-too-great, or whatever) as it did before Apple made the announcement. Yes, there is a chance that Apple will remove OpenGL altogether from a future version of OpenGL - in this case, point that out to users: "note that if you update to macOS XX (with XX > 11.1, and some time in the future), Guild Wars 2 will no longer run." Again, fine, that gives me the ability to choose whether I want to update my OS or keep GW2 alive and running.

    What Anet does instead is kill a working and running client, for no valid Apple-caused reason that would mean it could not work beyond February 18, roughly at the half-way point between the release of the current macOS and the next version (11.2?). This is not Apple's fault, or caused by Apple, but a decision made by Anet. And I at least would appreciate honesty, I have heard lies, falsehoods, scapegoating etc. far too often over the course of the last year(s).

  • ASP.8093ASP.8093 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 11, 2021

    @Balsa.3951 said:
    I imagine that's the real reason Anet delayed Steam

    To be honest, I think a long internal conversation about how to fix the Living Story monetization model is the real reason Anet is delaying Steam.

    (For the simple reason that they could simply do a Windows-only Steam release if they wanted to.)

  • DeanBB.4268DeanBB.4268 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @kharmin.7683 said:

    @Random Wax Orc.7695 said:
    Apple has long claimed that their computers run PC software better than PCs run PC software. They have even claimed that PC software on a Mac runs bug free, regardless of how buggy the software might be. So, there has never been a reason to make an Apple version of any software, because Macs are magic!

    I am on team Anet on this. I am not on Apple's team corporate marketing. Using Anet resources to keep up with the Apple "change for change sake" treadmill is a waste.

    It's not change for change sake. It's forcing consumers to purchase something to continue the revenue stream.

    Wait. Apple/Mac is an MMO? :open_mouth:

    X__________________________
    (Signature Required)

  • sorudo.9054sorudo.9054 Member ✭✭✭✭

    if you happened to play GW2 on a mac because work then you have no one but yourself to blame, it's bin clear for about 20 years that mac is not, and i repeat, not made to play games on.
    better yet, any pro gamer would laugh in your face when mentioning mac as a gaming platform, screaming about it now only makes you look petty.

    i am not trying to fight or anything but you should know better, a cheap pc of 500 bucks can handle GW2 better than a 2K mac and it has bin proven so many times it's ridicules.
    Anet just did this to spare them the trouble, mac has never bin their main market in any way and that's the case for many other games.

    one big positive thing i see is that they could now upgrade the game without worrying about apple stuff, it's a straight road to windows OS and nothing more.

    the truth is harsh, my opinions are too.

  • Apple is worth $2 Trillion dollars. NCSoft (which Anet is just a part of) is worth only $12 Billion.

    Why do you find faultless one of the worlds richest companies who could very easily maintain compatibility with current games with a pittance of investment, and yet think that Anet, a small subsidiary, of an already smallish company should be tasked with this extra burden financially?

    Apple doesn't care that you want to use their machines for gaming. That is clear by their actions.

    Also, as a side note ESO put out basically the same letter as Anet. No support for Mac on ESO either. Same reasons too. Two much dev time and simply not enough people play on a Mac to justify it.

  • Gyro.9182Gyro.9182 Member ✭✭

    @Opopanax.1803 said:
    I dont think anyone is nieve enough to think this all one sided, but the reality is very much that Apple creates there own treadmills. Most of us have known this for quite some time.

    I like your statement. However, I have seen a sufficient number of posts that indeed blame Apple exclusively for this, so I have to respectfully disagree with the first part of the sentence, without disagreeing with the rest...

  • lare.5129lare.5129 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Veprovina.4876 said:
    I'm sure everything you said is very helpful to people who can't play Guild Wars 2 anymore because of Apple's changes.

    today apply, but as for me soon arm on desctop cam be more mainstream. And not support that - don't look in future.

    +1 for comparing a multi million dollar company like Blizzard with 100x more staff than Anet.

    100x? joke? If you want compare all sum partu you need make Activision Blizzard(wow department) vs NCSOFT (where anet is sub part)
    An we see revenue $6.489 billion vs$ 1.543 billion. Yes, we have difference, 4.3, but not 100x ...

  • lare.5129lare.5129 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @dandamanno.4136 said:
    Apple doesn't care that you want to use their machines for gaming. That is clear by their actions.

    so why they produce api metal ? And why mane games already declare support .. 14800 applications already support this ..

  • lare.5129lare.5129 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Sobx.1758 said:
    True. So you should stop crying about it when you're so eager to support these great practices. What's your problem here?

    there is no any problem if u not worry will be alive gw2

  • Sobx.1758Sobx.1758 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 11, 2021

    @lare.5129 said:

    @Sobx.1758 said:
    True. So you should stop crying about it when you're so eager to support these great practices. What's your problem here?

    there is no any problem if u not worry will be alive gw2

    Good. So instead of saying in these threads whatever you're trying to constantly say (which basically boils down to "mac will make pcs irrelevant" -LOL), maybe tell the complainers to make educated choices and then live with them instead of misplacing blame on anet while still supporting apple's practices by just buying new stuff as a response.

  • Nephalem.8921Nephalem.8921 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @lare.5129 said:

    @dandamanno.4136 said:
    Apple doesn't care that you want to use their machines for gaming. That is clear by their actions.

    so why they produce api metal ? And why mane games already declare support .. 14800 applications already support this ..

    Graphics api is used for more than gaming. How many of the 14800 applications are games? How many are mobile games?

  • Gyro.9182Gyro.9182 Member ✭✭
    edited January 11, 2021

    @Nephalem.8921 said:
    Graphics api is used for more than gaming. How many of the 14800 applications are games? How many are mobile games?

    While I can‘t speak for the 14,800 (Apple apparently lists it as 148,000, „as of June 2017“), you might check the list on Wikipedia here to see some examples including well-known (and not „small“) games like CIV VI, Dota 2, Quake 2, diverse Tomb Raider or Total War games, WoW, or Fortnite. URL for the lazy: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metal_(API) (the list is probably neither complete nor very recent)..

  • lare.5129lare.5129 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Sobx.1758 said:
    So instead of saying in these threads whatever you're trying to constantly say (which basically boils down to "mac will make pcs irrelevant" -LOL)

    will make? no, I don't say that. That it WAS.

    maybe tell the complainers to make educated choices and then live with them instead of misplacing blame on anet

    I am not blame. I am say that it very SAD.

    while still supporting apple's practices by just buying new stuff as a response.

    it is good stuff. Not best,, but is big payable market.

  • Veprovina.4876Veprovina.4876 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @lare.5129 said:

    @Veprovina.4876 said:
    I'm sure everything you said is very helpful to people who can't play Guild Wars 2 anymore because of Apple's changes.

    today apply, but as for me soon arm on desctop cam be more mainstream. And not support that - don't look in future.

    +1 for comparing a multi million dollar company like Blizzard with 100x more staff than Anet.

    100x? joke? If you want compare all sum partu you need make Activision Blizzard(wow department) vs NCSOFT (where anet is sub part)
    An we see revenue $6.489 billion vs$ 1.543 billion. Yes, we have difference, 4.3, but not 100x ...

    Yes the 100x was an exaggeration obviously, but you see my point, that 4,3 billion difference is enough for them to have multiple clients. Also, you compared NCsoft To blizzard. Not all NCsoft money is going to Anet, so the gap is even larger.

  • @Gyro.9182 said:

    @Nephalem.8921 said:
    Graphics api is used for more than gaming. How many of the 14800 applications are games? How many are mobile games?

    While I can‘t speak for the 14,800 (Apple apparently lists it as 148,000, „as of June 2017“), you might check the list on Wikipedia here to see some examples including well-known (and not „small“) games like CIV VI, Dota 2, Quake 2, diverse Tomb Raider or Total War games, WoW, or Fortnite. URL for the lazy: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metal_(API) (the list is probably neither complete nor very recent)..

    https://www.gameinformer.com/2020

    Here is a list of all games released in 2020.

    Trying to find supported Mac games is like a needle in a haystack.

    Most companies find it not worthwhile. Im not sure why people are surprised that Anet wouldn't be willing to support Mac going forward, now that extra time and expense would be required.

  • Gyro.9182Gyro.9182 Member ✭✭

    @dandamanno.4136 said:
    Most companies find it not worthwhile. Im not sure why people are surprised that Anet wouldn't be willing to support Mac going forward, now that extra time and expense would be required.

    As pointed out several times, there is a difference between „not supporting the new products“ (fine, everybody can understand that, whether happy about it or not) and „kill the game even for the existing platform that does not require „extra time and expense“ beyond what it always did. The latter is what Anet is doing by killing the game for all Mac users. If this is due to a lack of manpower, time or money, OK, but then they could be honest and say so. It is not because of „changes Apple made“, as they will not affect 99% of the Mac player base anytime soon (most of such probably don‘t have the intention to switch to M1 „right now“, plus they have only introduced the laptops + Mini so far with M1, not the iMac).

  • Linken.6345Linken.6345 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Gyro.9182 said:

    @dandamanno.4136 said:
    Most companies find it not worthwhile. Im not sure why people are surprised that Anet wouldn't be willing to support Mac going forward, now that extra time and expense would be required.

    As pointed out several times, there is a difference between „not supporting the new products“ (fine, everybody can understand that, whether happy about it or not) and „kill the game even for the existing platform that does not require „extra time and expense“ beyond what it always did. The latter is what Anet is doing by killing the game for all Mac users. If this is due to a lack of manpower, time or money, OK, but then they could be honest and say so. It is not because of „changes Apple made“, as they will not affect 99% of the Mac player base anytime soon (most of such probably don‘t have the intention to switch to M1 „right now“, plus they have only introduced the laptops + Mini so far with M1, not the iMac).

    So if anet advertise that its avaliable on mac and then dont work on all type of macs people will accept that?
    I dont think so hence why they are pulling out.

  • ASP.8093ASP.8093 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Linken.6345 said:
    So if anet advertise that its avaliable on mac and then dont work on all type of macs people will accept that?
    I dont think so hence why they are pulling out.

    I think the vast majority of the user base would rather have continued "no warranty" access to the native Mac client than jump through all sorts of hoops just to keep playing an old game in a degraded state. I get that MMOGs are "always evolving" but the basic engine code seems to be pretty static (look at how the Windows client is still locked to DX9); continuing to compile the Mac binaries and just letting the chips fall where they may bug-wise would be way better than what we're getting now.

  • Gyro.9182Gyro.9182 Member ✭✭
    edited January 12, 2021

    @Linken.6345 said:
    So if anet advertise that its avaliable on mac and then dont work on all type of macs people will accept that?
    I dont think so hence why they are pulling out.

    If Anet advertised that it is available on macOS/Intel, but they are unable to provide a macOS/M1 version, I would assume that (a) almost all Mac users will accept that (you will never reach 100% acceptance for anything, I assume), (b) it will not matter to most Mac users at the moment, (c) the current player base would simply be able to continue playing.
    Saying "we can't port it to a system you and 99% of all current Mac users are not actually using, so we will go a step further and kill the game that works on your machine, too" is a somewhat different message, isn't it? And that's the one Anet is sending.
    Repeating myself, if there are reasons (lack of money, the lead Mac developer is leaving Anet, ...) that prevent Anet from supporting the current client, I would understand that (thought I would, of course, still not be happy about it). But blaming Apple's new chipset that has no bearing on the existing client and the announcing "so we just kill it for everybody who is not affected by the new chip, and who could have continued using the game"...?

  • Master Ketsu.4569Master Ketsu.4569 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 12, 2021

    Can't Apple use Wine? I know it doesn't work as well as it does on Linux, but it's worth a shot.

    My laptop is running Kubu linux and can run GW2 with wine at about 50 fps which isn't the best but it's not bad. Vulkan drivers help.

  • lare.5129lare.5129 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 12, 2021

    @Gyro.9182 said:
    Repeating myself, if there are reasons (lack of money, the lead Mac developer is leaving Anet, ...) that prevent Anet from supporting the current client, I would understand that (thought I would, of course, still not be happy about it).

    can it be some pressure from powerful x64 fans in some management or side government?

    Apple's new chipset

    magic that it drop support form all line, not only m1.

  • lare.5129lare.5129 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Master Ketsu.4569 said:
    Can't Apple use Wine?

    it can only on OLD Apple that already was normal native working client. You cant run wine on m1. The virtualization is obsolete on new cpu.

    My laptop is running Kubu linux and can run GW2 with wine at about 50 fps which isn't the best but it's not bad. Vulkan drivers help.

    we happy that you run linux+wine and gw2

  • lare.5129lare.5129 Member ✭✭✭✭

    hope someone make video where probably spain/argentina person very laugh ad say story about gw2 and mac support. And unhappy mac players will get some smile and positive.

  • lare.5129lare.5129 Member ✭✭✭✭

    !!!! extra news:

    Guild Wars 2 Running on M1 MacBook Air Using Parallels Windows 10 ARM
    looks it have great performance. It I set on my new GeForce same settings I have less fps ..

  • Linken.6345Linken.6345 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Gyro.9182 said:

    @Linken.6345 said:
    So if anet advertise that its avaliable on mac and then dont work on all type of macs people will accept that?
    I dont think so hence why they are pulling out.

    If Anet advertised that it is available on macOS/Intel, but they are unable to provide a macOS/M1 version, I would assume that (a) almost all Mac users will accept that (you will never reach 100% acceptance for anything, I assume), (b) it will not matter to most Mac users at the moment, (c) the current player base would simply be able to continue playing.
    Saying "we can't port it to a system you and 99% of all current Mac users are not actually using, so we will go a step further and kill the game that works on your machine, too" is a somewhat different message, isn't it? And that's the one Anet is sending.
    Repeating myself, if there are reasons (lack of money, the lead Mac developer is leaving Anet, ...) that prevent Anet from supporting the current client, I would understand that (thought I would, of course, still not be happy about it). But blaming Apple's new chipset that has no bearing on the existing client and the announcing "so we just kill it for everybody who is not affected by the new chip, and who could have continued using the game"...?

    And then you would have the people that read, oh macOS great it works for my machine not knowing what intel means and then get mad at anet.

  • Gyro.9182Gyro.9182 Member ✭✭

    @Linken.6345 said:
    And then you would have the people that read, oh macOS great it works for my machine not knowing what intel means and then get mad at anet.

    I am sure one can spin things in any direction, if one really wants to. Does not mean it makes sense to do so.
    If Anet no longer wanted to support Windows 7, should they also stop the Windows client for Windows 10 (and 8), because some people are not aware which version of Windows they are running?
    As it is, all Mac users are to some extend "mad at Anet", I fail to see how that is better than your proposal.

  • Sobx.1758Sobx.1758 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @lare.5129 said:
    Guild Wars 2 Running on M1 MacBook Air Using Parallels Windows 10 ARM
    looks it have great performance. It I set on my new GeForce same settings I have less fps ..

    In this vid you keep constantly dropping below 15-20 fps (around 1:03 you dropped to 8 because you turned your camera around -stopped watching beyond this point) in an instance you're alone in. So no, you don't "have less fps on new geforce" LOL

    I mean it's great you can play it on whatever you want to play it on. But if you're trying to make a competition out of it (again) for whatever reason, at least don't bend the facts.

  • lare.5129lare.5129 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Gyro.9182 said:
    As it is, all Mac users are to some extend "mad at Anet"

    oh, no, we already know that it great works on m1 whit windows version

    @Sobx.1758 said:

    yes, people ask why it is great, and I explain that
    https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/1401632#Comment_1401629

  • ASP.8093ASP.8093 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 12, 2021

    @Linken.6345 said:
    And then you would have the people that read, oh macOS great it works for my machine not knowing what intel means and then get mad at anet.

    If "what if someone doesn't understand system requirements and gets mad about it" was a show-stopper for game development, literally zero video games would be published.

  • Aran.9374Aran.9374 Member ✭✭
    edited January 12, 2021

    I use NVIDIA GeForce Now whenever I log-in to GW2 on my iMac and the game runs like Seabiscuit. Super fast frame rate every time. NVIDIA litterally saved GW2 for me.

  • Infusion.7149Infusion.7149 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 12, 2021

    @lare.5129 said:
    !!!! extra news:

    Guild Wars 2 Running on M1 MacBook Air Using Parallels Windows 10 ARM
    looks it have great performance. It I set on my new GeForce same settings I have less fps ..

    Except anyone that is unbiased will not say it is "great performance". It is on lowest model limit and dips to ~12 FPS in an instanced DRM zone. The only way that you have less FPS on a "new Geforce" is if you don't have DX9 installed or your settings are way out of whack.

    Also even before the announcement, GW2 runs better via Boot Camp than in the MacOS client.

  • lare.5129lare.5129 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 12, 2021

    @Infusion.7149 said:
    Except anyone that is unbiased will not say it is "great performance".

    for me it great. Currently on 2060 if preset same I get less.

  • Asgaeroth.6427Asgaeroth.6427 Member ✭✭
    edited January 12, 2021

    Apple doesn't appreciate software with 3rd party billing services. Apple doesn't appreciate software being available on their platforms that wasn't entirely made in Apple's extremely expensive development tools. Apple's new chips are good enough to justify clamping down on old x86-64 software. Apple plainly doesn't want you to be able to deal with ArenaNet, and they are seizing the opportunity to lock you out now that they have the "our ARM chips are good enough for general compute now" excuse. If you aren't happy with software unavailability on your Mac, sell it. You can buy an equivalently spec'd general purpose x86-64 machine brand new for your used Mac price. Being mad at ArenaNet over Apple's misanthropic view is pointless. This happening should not be a shock to Mac users. ArenaNet isn't in a position of folding at the first sign of resistance here, they are one of the longest holdouts who tried the hardest to make the relationship with Apple work. Apple doesn't want it to work, so it is never going to work. ArenaNet's mistake was thinking they could get through to Apple and they let this drag on too long.

  • lare.5129lare.5129 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 12, 2021

    @Asgaeroth.6427 said:
    You can buy an equivalently spec'd general purpose x86-64 machine brand new for your used Mac price.

    ? what ? my x86-64 machine was buy for price that price for 2 new air mac. No matter purpose. Performance - this is target.

  • @lare.5129 said:

    @Asgaeroth.6427 said:
    Uou can buy an equivalently spec'd general purpose x86-64 machine brand new for your used Mac price.

    ? what ? my x86-64 machine same price that price for 2 new air mac. No matter purpose. Performance - this is target.

    Could you rephrase that? I have no idea what you are trying to say.

  • lare.5129lare.5129 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 12, 2021

    @Asgaeroth.6427 said:
    Could you rephrase that? I have no idea what you are trying to say.

    some time ago I buy new x86-64 laptop with itel cpu and geforce 2060. Now on aprox half of this price I can buy macbook air.
    And how I say if I set native rendering and same graphics options I have same fps as in m1 in Parallel

  • Infusion.7149Infusion.7149 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 13, 2021

    @lare.5129 said:

    @Infusion.7149 said:
    Except anyone that is unbiased will not say it is "great performance".

    for me it great. Currently on 2060 if preset same I get less.

    That's statistically impossible unless your Intel CPU is ancient.
    M1 Mac using all 8 cores in Parallels gets a singlethreaded Cinebench score of 513 single thread in Windows 10 virtualized with 1833 points across all cores (versus 1520 single thread and 7794 in MacOS natively which can be partly attributed to OS optimizations and code paths). That's lower in Windows 10 than an Intel i7-4850HQ (only turbos to 3.5GHz) which scores 750 single thread and a performance hit of over two-thirds relative to native macOS.

    From 2011 (before GW2 was launched) to 2013ish when the i7-4850HQ was released there has only been around 10-20% single threaded improvement from Sandy Bridge on 32nm to Haswell on 22nm (a node shrink and a FIVR power experiment). The only exception is if the application uses AVX2 instruction-sets which aren't present in Sandy Bridge. It wasn't until Kaby Lake on 14nm with DDR4 and higher clocks that there was a sizable performance gain on Intel chips ; until the Coffee Lake set of chips there were no mainstream mobile chips with more than 6 cores.

    See also:
    Quick Apple M1 macOS reference points against Intel Tiger Lake and AMD Renoir Linux laptops by Michael Larabel. https://openbenchmarking.org/result/2012250-FI-2012032FI40


    As far as native MacOS performance, read this review by notebookcheck in 2019 (https://www.notebookcheck.net/Apple-MacBook-Pro-16-2019-Laptop-Review-A-convincing-Core-i9-9880H-and-Radeon-Pro-5500M-powered-multimedia-laptop.445902.0.html#toc-gaming-on-macos-doable-but-not-recommended) :

    We also looked at gaming performance on macOS in case you did not fancy running Boot Camp. In short, the experience is not as good as it is on Windows 10. While Planetary Annihilation: TITANS remains playable at maximum graphics and the display's native resolution, we would recommend running League of Legends at a slightly reduced resolution if you are an avid gamer. Unfortunately, we could not show the frame rates our unit achieved when playing League of Legends.

    Conversely, the MacBook Pro 16 could only average 40 FPS in Fortnite at 1636x960 and maximum graphics. The game does a wonderful job of scaling though, so do not let the resolution put you off. Meanwhile, Planetary Annihilations ran at 60 FPS natively and at maximum graphics, as we implied earlier. We achieved 60 FPS while playing skirmish games with two computers, for reference.

    Overall, we would recommend using Windows 10 if you are planning on gaming with the MacBook Pro 16. Doing so will not only deliver a better gaming experience than macOS offers as many games are optimised better for DirectX but also a wider library of games from which to choose.


    @lare.5129 said:

    @Asgaeroth.6427 said:
    Could you rephrase that? I have no idea what you are trying to say.

    some time ago I buy new x86-64 laptop with itel cpu and geforce 2060. Now on aprox half of this price I can buy macbook air.
    And how I say if I set native rendering and same graphics options I have same fps as in m1 in Parallel

    That's also impossible unless you bought a $2000+ PC which also manages to throttle with a RTX 2060 (a quintessential 1440p GPU) which means you didn't read reviews or do your own due diligence. The only Apple M1 computer below $1000 is the Mac Mini for $700 without the screen ; even with double that budget ($1500) there are quite a few computers you could have bought or built. If you look on noteb which I linked to someone else looking for PCs, there's notebooks that run this game 40+ FPS that are below $1000 , since it's CPU bound more or less anything with a discrete GPU that isn't a 15W constrained CPU is going to do the job.

    In fact a laptop with i7-9750H + RTX 2060 was benchmarked this past year there: https://noteb.com/?content/review.php?/2020/03/13/acer-predator-helios-300-15-2019-ph315-52-review/
    FPS min = 21 , FPS average = 62 (model limit = highest , best appearance preset)

  • lare.5129lare.5129 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 12, 2021

    I don't believe in turbo-boost, but I believe in overheat agter 1h, cpu throttling, and big electricity consuming
    I don't say that mac m1 is best pc in word. I say that is can be in current world.

  • ASP.8093ASP.8093 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Asgaeroth.6427 said:
    Apple doesn't appreciate software with 3rd party billing services.

    … in the App Store. Most users aren't married to the App Store.

    The tussle over Fortnite was about App Store billing structure, which is the same reason you can't buy Fortnite on Steam. (And the reason "how do we put Guild Wars 2 on Steam?" has been a months-long process for Anet even though just uploading a game to Steam takes like a single afternoon.)

    You can install any software you want directly, or through a storefront like Steam, GOG, Epic Games Store, &c. without giving Apple a single cent of your money. The only obstacle is a single clicky box saying "hey, did you download this installer from a website you trust?"

    @Asgaeroth.6427 said:
    Apple plainly doesn't want you to be able to deal with ArenaNet, and they are seizing the opportunity to lock you out now that they have the "our ARM chips are good enough for general compute now" excuse.

    They're not locking you out of anything, though. The OGL layer is still there. x86 binary translation is there. The forced 64-bit thing was annoying (why no legacy layer for that?) and the app-signing thing is annoying, but neither of these have had a visible impact on Anet's ability to provide a GW2 Mac client so far. If they want to take the same approach that Steam did where they just slap "This product is not compatible with Mac OS version blah blah" on the product page and call it a day, I wouldn't begrudge them that — I'm sure the end of the OS 10.x line is a big deal under the hood and it's okay if they don't have the resources to continually iterate on an old game.

    I'm not here to defend a giant computer manufacturer, but you are absolutely reaching to try to paint a cost-cutting move as something they've been forced into by a hardware/OS roadmap that mostly affects new computers while we're talking about the needs of an existing customer base still playing their ten-year-old game.

  • @ASP.8093 said:

    @Asgaeroth.6427 said:
    Apple doesn't appreciate software with 3rd party billing services.

    … in the App Store. Most users aren't married to the App Store.

    The tussle over Fortnite was about App Store billing structure, which is the same reason you can't buy Fortnite on Steam. (And the reason "how do we put Guild Wars 2 on Steam?" has been a months-long process for Anet even though just uploading a game to Steam takes like a single afternoon.)

    You can install any software you want directly, or through a storefront like Steam, GOG, Epic Games Store, &c. without giving Apple a single cent of your money. The only obstacle is a single clicky box saying "hey, did you download this installer from a website you trust?"

    @Asgaeroth.6427 said:
    Apple plainly doesn't want you to be able to deal with ArenaNet, and they are seizing the opportunity to lock you out now that they have the "our ARM chips are good enough for general compute now" excuse.

    They're not locking you out of anything, though. The OGL layer is still there. x86 binary translation is there. The forced 64-bit thing was annoying (why no legacy layer for that?) and the app-signing thing is annoying, but neither of these have had a visible impact on Anet's ability to provide a GW2 Mac client so far. If they want to take the same approach that Steam did where they just slap "This product is not compatible with Mac OS version blah blah" on the product page and call it a day, I wouldn't begrudge them that — I'm sure the end of the OS 10.x line is a big deal under the hood and it's okay if they don't have the resources to continually iterate on an old game.

    I'm not here to defend a giant computer manufacturer, but you are absolutely reaching to try to paint a cost-cutting move as something they've been forced into by a hardware/OS roadmap that mostly affects new computers while we're talking about the needs of an existing customer base still playing their ten-year-old game.

    There's more to it than the technical issues. If Apple doesn't think they can onboard you onto Apple Pay and sell you $2 million of development kit, they wont even respond to your emails. The Apple MO is to stonewall developers who aren't 100% in the program. They make it as difficult as possible to work with them because they know most studios are going to bend over backwards to get access to the Apple customers, you know, those people who pay $3000 for $750 hardware configurations because it has rounded bezels? Apple has a really good scam going and it is hard to wrap your mind around the horror of dealing with it until you've had to.

  • ASP.8093ASP.8093 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Asgaeroth.6427 said:
    There's more to it than the technical issues. If Apple doesn't think they can onboard you onto Apple Pay and sell you $2 million of development kit, they wont even respond to your emails. The Apple MO is to stonewall developers who aren't 100% in the program. They make it as difficult as possible to work with them because they know most studios are going to bend over backwards to get access to the Apple customers, you know, those people who pay $3000 for $750 hardware configurations because it has rounded bezels? Apple has a really good scam going and it is hard to wrap your mind around the horror of dealing with it until you've had to.

    This has rather little bearing on an existing game that's basically in maintenance mode as far as the engine itself is concerned.

  • @ASP.8093 said:

    @Asgaeroth.6427 said:
    There's more to it than the technical issues. If Apple doesn't think they can onboard you onto Apple Pay and sell you $2 million of development kit, they wont even respond to your emails. The Apple MO is to stonewall developers who aren't 100% in the program. They make it as difficult as possible to work with them because they know most studios are going to bend over backwards to get access to the Apple customers, you know, those people who pay $3000 for $750 hardware configurations because it has rounded bezels? Apple has a really good scam going and it is hard to wrap your mind around the horror of dealing with it until you've had to.

    This has rather little bearing on an existing game that's basically in maintenance mode as far as the engine itself is concerned.

    The age of the game and the limited ArenaNet development resources are why it has to go this way, not why it shouldn't go this way. With a broader and more realistic perspective, this is obvious and unavoidable. It's nice to live in a world where you can say "just do X thing and it's fine". The problems start when the people who actually have to do X thing live in reality, and the people who proposed X thing can't see the spectrum of problems that make X thing completely unrealistic.

  • ASP.8093ASP.8093 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Asgaeroth.6427 said:

    @ASP.8093 said:

    @Asgaeroth.6427 said:
    There's more to it than the technical issues. If Apple doesn't think they can onboard you onto Apple Pay and sell you $2 million of development kit, they wont even respond to your emails. The Apple MO is to stonewall developers who aren't 100% in the program. They make it as difficult as possible to work with them because they know most studios are going to bend over backwards to get access to the Apple customers, you know, those people who pay $3000 for $750 hardware configurations because it has rounded bezels? Apple has a really good scam going and it is hard to wrap your mind around the horror of dealing with it until you've had to.

    This has rather little bearing on an existing game that's basically in maintenance mode as far as the engine itself is concerned.

    The age of the game and the limited ArenaNet development resources are why it has to go this way, not why it shouldn't go this way. With a broader and more realistic perspective, this is obvious and unavoidable. It's nice to live in a world where you can say "just do X thing and it's fine". The problems start when the people who actually have to do X thing live in reality, and the people who proposed X thing can't see the spectrum of problems that make X thing completely unrealistic.

    You have no greater insight into "the spectrum of problems that make X thing completely unrealistic" than anyone else here, you're throwing stuff at the wall and at least half of it very evidently doesn't fit the situation at hand.

  • MAC support is gone. Deal with it and move on or adapt and continue enjoying the game. It's that simple.

    Nothing will change Anet's decision, effectively making "i'm unhappy" remarks redundant.

  • Ten-year old game? (I was under the impression it was about 8 1/2-year old game.)
    Maintenance mode? (News to me.)

  • sniperman.1738sniperman.1738 Member ✭✭✭

    @Veprovina.4876 said:

    @sniperman.1738 said:
    the mac users are a small margin of gw2, plus reality is if you are going to game you should be buying a windows pc not a mac, as windows is designed more for gaming and is more realistically priced.

    That's not the point. Some people have a mac for whatever work they need it for, and just hapen to play one or two games on it, GW2 being and example.
    For those people it wouldn't make sense to buy a gaming PC just to play GW2. So until now they had the option, but Apple took that option away from them.

    Don't make this into Mac vs PC because that's not the issue. Most Mac players didn't specifically buy their mac to play games, they bought it for X reason and just happened to play GW2 on it.

    thing is even for work purposes you can still build a far better windows pc for work purposes that would be cheaper and far outweigh a mac for work related speed, and multi tasking. Mac or apple tries to be innovative when they are going to wind up cycling themselves out of the system as more business's adopt windows as the main form as its cheaper to build and results in better work machines. I mean don't get me wrong guild wars 2 is going to need to figure something out because even Windows has plans to drop x86 and legacy coding all together and start from scratch and make a whole new operating system/ architecture without any legacy code in it. So I can agree though that Anet is going to need to adapt or their game will die off.

    ~Find your destiny.