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Just another QQ Review about Guardian class

Masteis.9720Masteis.9720 Member ✭✭

Hi fellas,

I know there are plently of QQ reviews about Guardians but I just wanted to share mine as well and I am going to keep it really short;

I've mained Mesmer, to be honest, I do not have any problem with dealing a Guardian. If I take right actions like dodging skills or using right skills in right time etc. I can take down any class. I believe that mastering any class and playing it is the right the key. But, the thing i want to mention is that the attention you have to pay.
For example; as a Mesmer, I have to calculate every move. I cannot use my skills randomly, I need to use them in a correct situation. To success, I have to play smart.
And about Guardian; I just started to play with Guardian a few days ago. I just checked a meta build and never watched a single PvP guide. What I do is just laying down whatever trap I, and spaming F2 F3 and Sword 5 when I am low. I don't even select a target, I just push the buttons and try to survive while laying traps around. I have more win ratio than any other class now.
I am not trying to tell that Guardian's damage should be nerfed, I just wanted to point that Guardians shouldn't be a class that is really easy to play.

Comments

  • Being sarcastic does not change the fact. If you are trying to compare; the "playtime" statistics show that Guardians have 79,414,593 hours playtime and Mesmer 55,679,456 hours.

  • @Ragnar.4257 said:

    @Masteis.9720 said:
    Hi fellas,

    I know there are plently of QQ reviews about Guardians but I just wanted to share mine as well and I am going to keep it really short;

    I've mained Mesmer, to be honest, I do not have any problem with dealing a Guardian. If I take right actions like dodging skills or using right skills in right time etc. I can take down any class. I believe that mastering any class and playing it is the right the key. But, the thing i want to mention is that the attention you have to pay.
    For example; as a Mesmer, I have to calculate every move. I cannot use my skills randomly, I need to use them in a correct situation. To success, I have to play smart.
    And about Guardian; I just started to play with Guardian a few days ago. I just checked a meta build and never watched a single PvP guide. What I do is just laying down whatever trap I, and spaming F2 F3 and Sword 5 when I am low. I don't even select a target, I just push the buttons and try to survive while laying traps around. I have more win ratio than any other class now.
    I am not trying to tell that Guardian's damage should be nerfed, I just wanted to point that Guardians shouldn't be a class that is really easy to play.

    I've mained Guardian, to be honest, I do not have any problem with dealing a Mesmer. If I take right actions like dodging skills or using right skills in right time etc. I can take down any class. I believe that mastering any class and playing it is the right the key. But, the thing i want to mention is that the attention you have to pay.
    For example; as a Guardian, I have to calculate every move. I cannot use my skills randomly, I need to use them in a correct situation. To success, I have to play smart.
    And about Mesmer; I just started to play with Mesmer a few days ago. I just checked a meta build and never watched a single PvP guide. What I do is just laying down whatever phantasm/shatter I, and spaming F3 F4 and teleport when I am low. I don't even select a target, I just push the buttons and try to survive while laying clones around. I have more win ratio than any other class now.
    I am not trying to tell that Mesmer's damage should be nerfed, I just wanted to point that Mesmer shouldn't be a class that is really easy to play.

    Lmao! I'd love to see you actually try using a mesmer in pvp (rated or unrated) and try NOT getting carpal tunnel.

    I understand that sarcasm but its true. Any class can counter any class if played well and right. There are some classes the take very little work to master and provide massive benefits for little to no work (e.g. Guards, Necros and maybe Revs). As it stands the low tier classes need to work twice as hard to keep up with these more easily played classes. I also main mesmer and I can lose to a beginner Guard necro or Rev if I make a single mistake where as most other classes can bounce back with little to no issues.

  • Ragnar.4257Ragnar.4257 Member ✭✭✭

    I mean, whether or not Guardian is better than Mesmer, is a fairly pointless discussion, because, they aren't the only 2 classes in the game, and the game-mode is not a 1v1 deathmatch.

  • @Ragnar.4257 said:
    I mean, whether or not Guardian is better than Mesmer, is a fairly pointless discussion, because, they aren't the only 2 classes in the game, and the game-mode is not a 1v1 deathmatch.

    I don't think that's the point of the post. The point is guards are easier to play and give a lot of wins with little effort. Mesmers are much more difficult to play and can only win if its in the hands of someone who's played it for a long time.

    This isn't just the case for guards and mesmers, its true when you compare other classes too.

  • Psycoprophet.8107Psycoprophet.8107 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Masteis.9720 said:
    Hi fellas,

    I know there are plently of QQ reviews about Guardians but I just wanted to share mine as well and I am going to keep it really short;

    I've mained Mesmer, to be honest, I do not have any problem with dealing a Guardian. If I take right actions like dodging skills or using right skills in right time etc. I can take down any class. I believe that mastering any class and playing it is the right the key. But, the thing i want to mention is that the attention you have to pay.
    For example; as a Mesmer, I have to calculate every move. I cannot use my skills randomly, I need to use them in a correct situation. To success, I have to play smart.
    And about Guardian; I just started to play with Guardian a few days ago. I just checked a meta build and never watched a single PvP guide. What I do is just laying down whatever trap I, and spaming F2 F3 and Sword 5 when I am low. I don't even select a target, I just push the buttons and try to survive while laying traps around. I have more win ratio than any other class now.
    I am not trying to tell that Guardian's damage should be nerfed, I just wanted to point that Guardians shouldn't be a class that is really easy to play.

    Yup, what u described is the braindead spammy playstyle that this class and a few others promote and are far more effective than they should be. This and other reasons are why this games pvp are suffering so bad, anet needs to rework these classes to promote healthier playstyles within a competitive environment.

  • @Ragnar.4257 said:

    @idontnoso.9850 said:

    @Ragnar.4257 said:
    I mean, whether or not Guardian is better than Mesmer, is a fairly pointless discussion, because, they aren't the only 2 classes in the game, and the game-mode is not a 1v1 deathmatch.

    I don't think that's the point of the post. The point is guards are easier to play and give a lot of wins with little effort. Mesmers are much more difficult to play and can only win if its in the hands of someone who's played it for a long time.

    This isn't just the case for guards and mesmers, its true when you compare other classes too.

    Core-Ele is much more difficult to play than mesmer and has much lower win-rate. Therefore mesmer needs to be nerfed.

    See how that sounds stupid? See how you can't just compare 2 things in a vacuum?

    All I see is how narrow minded you are. I said that its true when you compare other classes with the top tier classes. They are top tier because they are so easy to pick up and have high value on almost any team. I've never heard of anyone complaining about having too many necros, guards or revs on their team.

  • Cynz.9437Cynz.9437 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Ragnar.4257 said:

    @idontnoso.9850 said:

    @Ragnar.4257 said:
    I mean, whether or not Guardian is better than Mesmer, is a fairly pointless discussion, because, they aren't the only 2 classes in the game, and the game-mode is not a 1v1 deathmatch.

    I don't think that's the point of the post. The point is guards are easier to play and give a lot of wins with little effort. Mesmers are much more difficult to play and can only win if its in the hands of someone who's played it for a long time.

    This isn't just the case for guards and mesmers, its true when you compare other classes too.

    Core-Ele is much more difficult to play than mesmer and has much lower win-rate. Therefore mesmer needs to be nerfed.

    See how that sounds stupid? See how you can't just compare 2 things in a vacuum?

    Core thief is basically non-existent in pvp yet they still heavily nerfed it last patch (and patches before) so yeah i see no point in your argument (at least by Anet's logic).

    Meh~

  • I didnot mean to tell Mesmer is hard but Guardian is eaay. I just gave Mesmer example because it was my main. I tried to point that Guardians are easy and they can carry the game. That's all.
    Guardian can inflict tons of burning damage that can kill 2 3 player at the same time. In addition to this, guardian skills have low CD, low casting time, can be casted from mid range, has enough area to hit whole enemy team and some of nuke skills can be spammed 3 or 4 times in a row.

  • ollbirtan.2915ollbirtan.2915 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 12, 2021

    I think you are mixing up what many folks do. Balance and OP/easy-to-play.
    Guardian even after multiple unjustified nerfs still remains a single well balanced class to date. What I mean by that, is that traits actually have synergy (less now thanks to anet great nerfs), they make sense, and you can create playable builds that actually work. That doesn't equal to being 'easy' to play.
    Edit And no, the braindead trapper burn DH is not the only build guardian can run now.

  • @ollbirtan.2915 said:
    I think you are mixing up what many folks do. Balance and OP/easy-to-play.
    Guardian even after multiple unjustified nerfs still remains a single well balanced class to date. What I mean by that, is that traits actually have synergy (less now thanks to anet great nerfs), they make sense, and you can create playable builds that actually work. That doesn't equal to being 'easy' to play.
    Edit And no, the braindead trapper burn DH is not the only build guardian can run now.

    Based on that I think Anet needs to turn away from nerfing what's working and move towards trying to buff classes/traits/abilities that have been underused or underwhelming. There's a reason why the current meta has been so strong and I think its based on what you're saying, the traits and skills just work so well with each other.

  • Masteis.9720Masteis.9720 Member ✭✭
    edited January 12, 2021

    I just took these screenshots, so people find this normal? Especially, please check the team arrangements lol, at least 2 guardians in every game

    winratio.png team.png team2.png

  • Psycoprophet.8107Psycoprophet.8107 Member ✭✭✭✭

    As I said in g3 and p1 over the last week there is always a guard on every team and often there's 2 and it's for a good reason.

  • Terrorhuz.4695Terrorhuz.4695 Member ✭✭✭

    @Ragnar.4257 said:

    @idontnoso.9850 said:

    @Ragnar.4257 said:
    I mean, whether or not Guardian is better than Mesmer, is a fairly pointless discussion, because, they aren't the only 2 classes in the game, and the game-mode is not a 1v1 deathmatch.

    I don't think that's the point of the post. The point is guards are easier to play and give a lot of wins with little effort. Mesmers are much more difficult to play and can only win if its in the hands of someone who's played it for a long time.

    This isn't just the case for guards and mesmers, its true when you compare other classes too.

    Core-Ele is much more difficult to play than mesmer and has much lower win-rate. Therefore mesmer needs to be nerfed.

    See how that sounds stupid? See how you can't just compare 2 things in a vacuum?

    Or you could buff ele. I wouldn't even ben against that tbh.

  • solemn.9608solemn.9608 Member ✭✭✭

    Burn Guard/DH is just 2018 fire weaver but with less steps.
    Fire weaver got nerfed.
    Where is burn guard's nerf? Been long enough.

  • Bear.9568Bear.9568 Member ✭✭✭

    @Ragnar.4257 said:

    @Masteis.9720 said:
    Hi fellas,

    I've mained Guardian, to be honest, I do not have any problem with dealing a Mesmer. If I take right actions like dodging skills or using right skills in right time etc. I can take down any class. I believe that mastering any class and playing it is the right the key. But, the thing i want to mention is that the attention you have to pay.
    For example; as a Guardian, I have to calculate every move. I cannot use my skills randomly, I need to use them in a correct situation. To success, I have to play smart.
    And about Mesmer; I just started to play with Mesmer a few days ago. I just checked a meta build and never watched a single PvP guide. What I do is just laying down whatever phantasm/shatter I, and spaming F3 F4 and teleport when I am low. I don't even select a target, I just push the buttons and try to survive while laying clones around. I have more win ratio than any other class now.
    I am not trying to tell that Mesmer's damage should be nerfed, I just wanted to point that Mesmer shouldn't be a class that is really easy to play.

    Silly Guardians,
    If you don't select a target then spamming your F3/F4 shatter does nothing because your clones are standing still lol.

    Gods of pvp:
    Guardian Build Difficulty - 1
    Mesmer Build Difficulty - 4

  • Psycoprophet.8107Psycoprophet.8107 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 12, 2021

    @Bear.9568 said:

    @Ragnar.4257 said:

    @Masteis.9720 said:
    Hi fellas,

    I've mained Guardian, to be honest, I do not have any problem with dealing a Mesmer. If I take right actions like dodging skills or using right skills in right time etc. I can take down any class. I believe that mastering any class and playing it is the right the key. But, the thing i want to mention is that the attention you have to pay.
    For example; as a Guardian, I have to calculate every move. I cannot use my skills randomly, I need to use them in a correct situation. To success, I have to play smart.
    And about Mesmer; I just started to play with Mesmer a few days ago. I just checked a meta build and never watched a single PvP guide. What I do is just laying down whatever phantasm/shatter I, and spaming F3 F4 and teleport when I am low. I don't even select a target, I just push the buttons and try to survive while laying clones around. I have more win ratio than any other class now.
    I am not trying to tell that Mesmer's damage should be nerfed, I just wanted to point that Mesmer shouldn't be a class that is really easy to play.

    Silly Guardians,
    If you don't select a target then spamming your F3/F4 shatter does nothing because your clones are standing still lol.

    Gods of pvp:
    Guardian Build Difficulty - 1
    Mesmer Build Difficulty - 4

    Also wonder who has the higher win rate, I could guess.

  • Vancho.8750Vancho.8750 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Psycoprophet.8107 said:
    As I said in g3 and p1 over the last week there is always a guard on every team and often there's 2 and it's for a good reason.

    Burn guardian is basically no downstate, ez safe range cleave on low cd that also kills anyone close to the downed, the only thing coming close to this is the banner stomp on warrior that has 180/120s cd. Some of the reworks from PoF had nice base idea but the execution does not work well in PVP at all, its all about PVE dps rotations and spamming more and more. The whole problem is that it does not feel like its outplaying you, it just feels like a timer to get it down before you run out of short cd condition cleanse, every attack is 3 to 5 burn stacks and that for some reason is more damage then full power glass build attacks. It just forces Build war instead of skill war, either have enough condi cleanse and win or don't and die or have a support with truck load of condi cleanse. The problem with that it enforces that Hard counter type gameplay.
    That is why it burn guard is not that great above p1,since people start playing more supports there, mostly support warrior cause it counter cheese like that even though it doesn't some playmaker skills like Tempest.

  • Dantheman.3589Dantheman.3589 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Ragnar.4257 said:

    @Masteis.9720 said:
    Hi fellas,

    I know there are plently of QQ reviews about Guardians but I just wanted to share mine as well and I am going to keep it really short;

    I've mained Mesmer, to be honest, I do not have any problem with dealing a Guardian. If I take right actions like dodging skills or using right skills in right time etc. I can take down any class. I believe that mastering any class and playing it is the right the key. But, the thing i want to mention is that the attention you have to pay.
    For example; as a Mesmer, I have to calculate every move. I cannot use my skills randomly, I need to use them in a correct situation. To success, I have to play smart.
    And about Guardian; I just started to play with Guardian a few days ago. I just checked a meta build and never watched a single PvP guide. What I do is just laying down whatever trap I, and spaming F2 F3 and Sword 5 when I am low. I don't even select a target, I just push the buttons and try to survive while laying traps around. I have more win ratio than any other class now.
    I am not trying to tell that Guardian's damage should be nerfed, I just wanted to point that Guardians shouldn't be a class that is really easy to play.

    I've mained Guardian, to be honest, I do not have any problem with dealing a Mesmer. If I take right actions like dodging skills or using right skills in right time etc. I can take down any class. I believe that mastering any class and playing it is the right the key. But, the thing i want to mention is that the attention you have to pay.
    For example; as a Guardian, I have to calculate every move. I cannot use my skills randomly, I need to use them in a correct situation. To success, I have to play smart.
    And about Mesmer; I just started to play with Mesmer a few days ago. I just checked a meta build and never watched a single PvP guide. What I do is just laying down whatever phantasm/shatter I, and spaming F3 F4 and teleport when I am low. I don't even select a target, I just push the buttons and try to survive while laying clones around. I have more win ratio than any other class now.
    I am not trying to tell that Mesmer's damage should be nerfed, I just wanted to point that Mesmer shouldn't be a class that is really easy to play.

    Ragnars being sarcastic but the point is that playing well will always lead to good results. Yes some builds are ezier and burn dh is like the epitome of ez, but let’s be real it still requires some skill- I’ll say as a somewhat good multi classer who actually loves guardian, I’m actually garbage teir at dh but can play burn cuz it’s ez. I can only play core guard builds at a high level though becuz that’s all I’m familiar with . Sure it’s ez and maybe it produces more results than Mesmer but that doesn’t mean guard is a problem.

  • yLoon.5289yLoon.5289 Member ✭✭
    edited January 13, 2021

    When you are in Platinum/ Legend Divison, there is no OP or easy to play classes, only OP players.

  • whoknocks.4935whoknocks.4935 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Before the mirage and chrono nerfs, mesmer was in the exact same spot of burn trapper dh now.

    But I guess it's ok when condi mirage was a plague right? That and scourge were the most spamming nobrainer builds of the maps and I climbed from silver2 to plat1 in 1/2 weeks casually playing.

    That being said I agree, burn trapper dh is the plague of the meta, rewards too much the player even if he is terrible and promote spam low risk gameplay.

    Not to mention guardian has even a support spec right now which is meta and some other classes barely have something viable.

  • @whoknocks.4935 said:
    Before the mirage and chrono nerfs, mesmer was in the exact same spot of burn trapper dh now.

    But I guess it's ok when condi mirage was a plague right? That and scourge were the most spamming nobrainer builds of the maps and I climbed from silver2 to plat1 in 1/2 weeks casually playing.

    That being said I agree, burn trapper dh is the plague of the meta, rewards too much the player even if he is terrible and promote spam low risk gameplay.

    Not to mention guardian has even a support spec right now which is meta and some other classes barely have something viable.

    Put a cd on the runes and see those player drop back to silver lol.

  • whoknocks.4935whoknocks.4935 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Brokensunday.4098 said:

    @whoknocks.4935 said:
    Before the mirage and chrono nerfs, mesmer was in the exact same spot of burn trapper dh now.

    But I guess it's ok when condi mirage was a plague right? That and scourge were the most spamming nobrainer builds of the maps and I climbed from silver2 to plat1 in 1/2 weeks casually playing.

    That being said I agree, burn trapper dh is the plague of the meta, rewards too much the player even if he is terrible and promote spam low risk gameplay.

    Not to mention guardian has even a support spec right now which is meta and some other classes barely have something viable.

    Put a cd on the runes and see those player drop back to silver lol.

    Or the usual reduction nerf, 1 sec superspeed 1 second stealth, maybe with 10 seconds ICD too why not.

  • Burn trapper DH is literally a hot garbage build. All you literally have to do is roll out of Dragon Maw and Procession of Blades. The current meta doesn't have a stun break so follow your dodge with a stun and a burst, and you've rendered most Guardians useless.

  • TinkTinkPOOF.9201TinkTinkPOOF.9201 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Masteis.9720 said:
    Hi fellas,

    I know there are plently of QQ reviews about Guardians but I just wanted to share mine as well and I am going to keep it really short;

    I've mained Mesmer, to be honest, I do not have any problem with dealing a Guardian. If I take right actions like dodging skills or using right skills in right time etc. I can take down any class. I believe that mastering any class and playing it is the right the key. But, the thing i want to mention is that the attention you have to pay.
    For example; as a Mesmer, I have to calculate every move. I cannot use my skills randomly, I need to use them in a correct situation. To success, I have to play smart.
    And about Guardian; I just started to play with Guardian a few days ago. I just checked a meta build and never watched a single PvP guide. What I do is just laying down whatever trap I, and spaming F2 F3 and Sword 5 when I am low. I don't even select a target, I just push the buttons and try to survive while laying traps around. I have more win ratio than any other class now.
    I am not trying to tell that Guardian's damage should be nerfed, I just wanted to point that Guardians shouldn't be a class that is really easy to play.

    What time zone do you play in? I can try and meet you online in a custom match, you run this burn DH build and I will run a full melee power DH build, so I will have to stand next to you putting me at a huge disadvantage. Always interested in seeing this build, people always talk about it and this is the 3rd thread about it I am posting offering to fight vs the build....But no one ever accepts? I am like a low gold rank player, why does no one want to show off how powerful the build is?

    "When you power creep the game and make it so that spam gameplay is nearly as effective as deep knowledge and nuance, the quality of players will decrease." -Exedore

  • Kuma.1503Kuma.1503 Member ✭✭✭✭

    It is not a hard rule, but easy to play often comes with the trade-off of being easy to counter.

    If your gameplay flow chart is simple and one dimensional, you can expect the counterplay to be similarly one dimensional. In this instance, it's simply a matter of learning to work around the build's strengths and you should be able to neutralize it. Putting it in terms that these forums often use, you may refer to builds like these as "gimmicks".

    While gimmick builds may be frustrating to fight, especially for those inexperienced, they generally crumble once you learn "the trick" to beating them. In Burn DH's case "the trick" is to either kite/outrange them, as Sword of Justice is near-useless on a moving target, or calmly cleanse at the peak of their condition burst.

    You should never die to SoJ unless you are either immobilized or caught in Dragon's Maw. In a worst case scenario in which you're trapped in Dragon's maw with a SoJ on top of you, rather than faceplant into the wall, calmly use whichever ports, blocks, invulns, or stationary evades (e.g. twist of fate) you have available.

  • @Kuma.1503 said:
    It is not a hard rule, but easy to play often comes with the trade-off of being easy to counter.

    If your gameplay flow chart is simple and one dimensional, you can expect the counterplay to be similarly one dimensional. In this instance, it's simply a matter of learning to work around the build's strengths and you should be able to neutralize it. Putting it in terms that these forums often use, you may refer to builds like these as "gimmicks".

    While gimmick builds may be frustrating to fight, especially for those inexperienced, they generally crumble once you learn "the trick" to beating them. In Burn DH's case "the trick" is to either kite/outrange them, as Sword of Justice is near-useless on a moving target, or calmly cleanse at the peak of their condition burst.

    You should never die to SoJ unless you are either immobilized or caught in Dragon's Maw. In a worst case scenario in which you're trapped in Dragon's maw with a SoJ on top of you, rather than faceplant into the wall, calmly use whichever ports, blocks, invulns, or stationary evades (e.g. twist of fate) you have available.

    I think the issue is that the gimmick of DH fits too well into the game mode of "Capture the Point". When players are forced to stand on a specific location to gain points, the DH excels are what they do, dealing high damage at a point. If you run into a DH in WvW, they are destroyed because the player is not forced to stand on a single point. Players can kite the DH with no demerits. Where as, in PvP, you may be forced to engage on a stack of traps or be in a prolonged fight where a DH drops traps in the middle of a fight when you're forced to defend a point; if you decide to leave they ultimately win by taking control of the point.

    Lets forget about the idea of engaging on a DH that's already on point. The biggest problem is when a DH engages on a fight that's already happening on a point. They simply enter the fight, drop their traps, and benefit from massive damage to multiple players; at times being able to down an entire team simply by laying down their traps.

    So, yes, the DH is easily countered in a duel or open world situation, but in a game mode where players are forced on to a single location, they do exceeding well.

  • Kuma.1503Kuma.1503 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @idontnoso.9850 said:

    @Kuma.1503 said:
    It is not a hard rule, but easy to play often comes with the trade-off of being easy to counter.

    If your gameplay flow chart is simple and one dimensional, you can expect the counterplay to be similarly one dimensional. In this instance, it's simply a matter of learning to work around the build's strengths and you should be able to neutralize it. Putting it in terms that these forums often use, you may refer to builds like these as "gimmicks".

    While gimmick builds may be frustrating to fight, especially for those inexperienced, they generally crumble once you learn "the trick" to beating them. In Burn DH's case "the trick" is to either kite/outrange them, as Sword of Justice is near-useless on a moving target, or calmly cleanse at the peak of their condition burst.

    You should never die to SoJ unless you are either immobilized or caught in Dragon's Maw. In a worst case scenario in which you're trapped in Dragon's maw with a SoJ on top of you, rather than faceplant into the wall, calmly use whichever ports, blocks, invulns, or stationary evades (e.g. twist of fate) you have available.

    I think the issue is that the gimmick of DH fits too well into the game mode of "Capture the Point". When players are forced to stand on a specific location to gain points, the DH excels are what they do, dealing high damage at a point. If you run into a DH in WvW, they are destroyed because the player is not forced to stand on a single point. Players can kite the DH with no demerits. Where as, in PvP, you may be forced to engage on a stack of traps or be in a prolonged fight where a DH drops traps in the middle of a fight when you're forced to defend a point; if you decide to leave they ultimately win by taking control of the point.

    Lets forget about the idea of engaging on a DH that's already on point. The biggest problem is when a DH engages on a fight that's already happening on a point. They simply enter the fight, drop their traps, and benefit from massive damage to multiple players; at times being able to down an entire team simply by laying down their traps.

    So, yes, the DH is easily countered in a duel or open world situation, but in a game mode where players are forced on to a single location, they do exceeding well.

    You have a valid point. In a game of hold the node, the weaknesses of some builds may be felt less than due to movement restricted fighting conditions. However, this does act as a double edged sword. You know with a fair degree of certainty where the DH will place his traps. Knowledge you can use to safely trigger them.

    You can run run through them while blocking, evading, or while invulnerable. You can send any AI pets you have into the line of fire, or in Herald's case, you can use DH traps as your own personal on-demand health pack. Simply turn on IL and heal to full whenever you desire.

    As the DH, you can replace these traps after they've been triggered if they've been set down for some time, but your opponent will have the benefit of knowing precicely where your traps are placed, and can plan their counterplay accordingly.

    Class specific counterplay:

    Ranger, Mesmer, and thief all have an easy method of triggering traps. DD can dash across the node. If caught they have plenty of blinks to escape maw. Ranger and Mesmer can trigger traps with AI. Other noteworthy classes are Spellbreaker, which gets guaranteed full counter off of traps, and zoo necro, who has no shortage of canon fodder and can screw the DH over with condi transfers.

  • Ragnar.4257Ragnar.4257 Member ✭✭✭

    @Kuma.1503 said:

    @idontnoso.9850 said:

    @Kuma.1503 said:
    It is not a hard rule, but easy to play often comes with the trade-off of being easy to counter.

    If your gameplay flow chart is simple and one dimensional, you can expect the counterplay to be similarly one dimensional. In this instance, it's simply a matter of learning to work around the build's strengths and you should be able to neutralize it. Putting it in terms that these forums often use, you may refer to builds like these as "gimmicks".

    While gimmick builds may be frustrating to fight, especially for those inexperienced, they generally crumble once you learn "the trick" to beating them. In Burn DH's case "the trick" is to either kite/outrange them, as Sword of Justice is near-useless on a moving target, or calmly cleanse at the peak of their condition burst.

    You should never die to SoJ unless you are either immobilized or caught in Dragon's Maw. In a worst case scenario in which you're trapped in Dragon's maw with a SoJ on top of you, rather than faceplant into the wall, calmly use whichever ports, blocks, invulns, or stationary evades (e.g. twist of fate) you have available.

    I think the issue is that the gimmick of DH fits too well into the game mode of "Capture the Point". When players are forced to stand on a specific location to gain points, the DH excels are what they do, dealing high damage at a point. If you run into a DH in WvW, they are destroyed because the player is not forced to stand on a single point. Players can kite the DH with no demerits. Where as, in PvP, you may be forced to engage on a stack of traps or be in a prolonged fight where a DH drops traps in the middle of a fight when you're forced to defend a point; if you decide to leave they ultimately win by taking control of the point.

    Lets forget about the idea of engaging on a DH that's already on point. The biggest problem is when a DH engages on a fight that's already happening on a point. They simply enter the fight, drop their traps, and benefit from massive damage to multiple players; at times being able to down an entire team simply by laying down their traps.

    So, yes, the DH is easily countered in a duel or open world situation, but in a game mode where players are forced on to a single location, they do exceeding well.

    You have a valid point. In a game of hold the node, the weaknesses of some builds may be felt less than due to movement restricted fighting conditions. However, this does act as a double edged sword. You know with a fair degree of certainty where the DH will place his traps. Knowledge you can use to safely trigger them.

    You can run run through them while blocking, evading, or while invulnerable. You can send any AI pets you have into the line of fire, or in Herald's case, you can use DH traps as your own personal on-demand health pack. Simply turn on IL and heal to full whenever you desire.

    As the DH, you can replace these traps after they've been triggered if they've been set down for some time, but your opponent will have the benefit of knowing precicely where your traps are placed, and can plan their counterplay accordingly.

    Class specific counterplay:

    Ranger, Mesmer, and thief all have an easy method of triggering traps. DD can dash across the node. If caught they have plenty of blinks to escape maw. Ranger and Mesmer can trigger traps with AI. Other noteworthy classes are Spellbreaker, which gets guaranteed full counter off of traps, and zoo necro, who has no shortage of canon fodder and can screw the DH over with condi transfers.

    Nonono, anything more complicated than walking directly to the target in a straight line and pressing 12345 in sequence is unfair to expect of anyone.

  • Masteis.9720Masteis.9720 Member ✭✭
    edited January 13, 2021

    You guys are so professional. If you guys did not mention, nobody would think that traps could be triggered with dodging etc.
    Also, to disprove this thread, one of you just called me out for a challange to duel with his "Power Guardian." Trying to beat a class with the same class should be joke.
    And the thing you guys do not understand is, everything you say that sounds good but only on paper. During an active combat, if a Guardian suddenly sets a trap, no one could just "OH LET ME TRIGGER THIS TRAP WITHOUT ANY HARM." Guardian does not have 2 seconds casting time, you cannot just interrupt and even you had a chance you could not because of infinite blocks.
    Walking straight and pressing buttons are just what Guardians doing right now, lets say "most" of them.

  • Kuma.1503Kuma.1503 Member ✭✭✭✭

    It's as they say. You can lead a horse to water but you cannot make it drink.

    We can show you all the tools you have at your disposal to counterplay guards, but it's on you to implement them. Good guardian players will know what their weaknesses are and attempt to play around them, the same as good players on any build, but no amount of skill can completely eliminate the build's weaknesses.

    Luckily, as you stated "most guardians are walking forward and pressing buttons" so most guards you encounter should be easy to outplay. Predictability is a death sentence, even on a meta build.


    In other news, I have officially joined the 4 star club! Neat :)

  • Leonidrex.5649Leonidrex.5649 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @whoknocks.4935 said:
    Before the mirage and chrono nerfs, mesmer was in the exact same spot of burn trapper dh now.

    But I guess it's ok when condi mirage was a plague right? That and scourge were the most spamming nobrainer builds of the maps and I climbed from silver2 to plat1 in 1/2 weeks casually playing.

    That being said I agree, burn trapper dh is the plague of the meta, rewards too much the player even if he is terrible and promote spam low risk gameplay.

    Not to mention guardian has even a support spec right now which is meta and some other classes barely have something viable.

    mirage was fine like that before the patch because that was the norm.
    EVERY build did it. from weavers that healed to full from 10% hp while chain evading then gaining 50% barrier, warriors throwing rocks for 15k while passively regenerating hp to revs porting through walls and almost instantly downing people while having bruiser level of sustain.

    If every class has broken as kitten build and you nerf half of them you didnt fix any problems, often times even made them worse.

  • Leonidrex.5649Leonidrex.5649 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Bear.9568 said:

    @Ragnar.4257 said:

    @Masteis.9720 said:
    Hi fellas,

    I've mained Guardian, to be honest, I do not have any problem with dealing a Mesmer. If I take right actions like dodging skills or using right skills in right time etc. I can take down any class. I believe that mastering any class and playing it is the right the key. But, the thing i want to mention is that the attention you have to pay.
    For example; as a Guardian, I have to calculate every move. I cannot use my skills randomly, I need to use them in a correct situation. To success, I have to play smart.
    And about Mesmer; I just started to play with Mesmer a few days ago. I just checked a meta build and never watched a single PvP guide. What I do is just laying down whatever phantasm/shatter I, and spaming F3 F4 and teleport when I am low. I don't even select a target, I just push the buttons and try to survive while laying clones around. I have more win ratio than any other class now.
    I am not trying to tell that Mesmer's damage should be nerfed, I just wanted to point that Mesmer shouldn't be a class that is really easy to play.

    Silly Guardians,
    If you don't select a target then spamming your F3/F4 shatter does nothing because your clones are standing still lol.

    Gods of pvp:
    Guardian Build Difficulty - 1
    Mesmer Build Difficulty - 4

    I would take gods of pvp with a grain of salt tbh, it lists mirage as dueling class lul

  • Bear.9568Bear.9568 Member ✭✭✭

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @Bear.9568 said:

    @Ragnar.4257 said:

    @Masteis.9720 said:

    I would take gods of pvp with a grain of salt tbh, it lists mirage as dueling class lul

    Mirage was a dueling class until all the casuals cried it was too op. Either way the build curators for godsofpvp are beyond the skill of most people on this forum, including yourself.

  • Ovark.2514Ovark.2514 Member ✭✭✭
    edited January 14, 2021

    @Kuma.1503 said:
    It's as they say. You can lead a horse to water but you cannot make it drink.

    We can show you all the tools you have at your disposal to counterplay guards, but it's on you to implement them. Good guardian players will know what their weaknesses are and attempt to play around them, the same as good players on any build, but no amount of skill can completely eliminate the build's weaknesses.

    Luckily, as you stated "most guardians are walking forward and pressing buttons" so most guards you encounter should be easy to outplay. Predictability is a death sentence, even on a meta build.


    In other news, I have officially joined the 4 star club! Neat :)

    Guardian is designed to succeed in sPvP over basically every other class. If you choose to take single hit burst, they have aegis to counter. If you take many multi-hit skills you will die to retal. If you do condi damage they have cleanse built into whatever spec you take. They have on-demand blind for anything they miss with aegis. They can skill stack better than pretty much any other class. The area control offered by symbols and traps is second-to-none. They have the power to instantly revive allies at range. They can port through walls. They have stunbreaks for days, or if the stunbreaks are gone they can activate the blind or aegis, shield of wrath, or retal as necessary. They have instant activation aoe CC. They have projectile block/reflect. Counterplaying a guard is harder than doing so for any other class. Historically people have excused guardians insane strength by calling it the slowest class or that it doesn't have tools like stealth. Turns out, Trapper runes make up for the only deficiencies guard had. Edit: Oh, completely forgot: They have the biggest get-out-of-jail-free card ever in the form of invulnerability.

  • whoknocks.4935whoknocks.4935 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Ragnar.4257 said:

    @Ovark.2514 said:

    @Kuma.1503 said:
    It's as they say. You can lead a horse to water but you cannot make it drink.

    We can show you all the tools you have at your disposal to counterplay guards, but it's on you to implement them. Good guardian players will know what their weaknesses are and attempt to play around them, the same as good players on any build, but no amount of skill can completely eliminate the build's weaknesses.

    Luckily, as you stated "most guardians are walking forward and pressing buttons" so most guards you encounter should be easy to outplay. Predictability is a death sentence, even on a meta build.


    In other news, I have officially joined the 4 star club! Neat :)

    Guardian is designed to succeed in sPvP over basically every other class. If you choose to take single hit burst, they have aegis to counter. If you take many multi-hit skills you will die to retal. If you do condi damage they have cleanse built into whatever spec you take. They have on-demand blind for anything they miss with aegis. They can skill stack better than pretty much any other class. The area control offered by symbols and traps is second-to-none. They have the power to instantly revive allies at range. They can port through walls. They have stunbreaks for days, or if the stunbreaks are gone they can activate the blind or aegis, shield of wrath, or retal as necessary. They have instant activation aoe CC. They have projectile block/reflect. Counterplaying a guard is harder than doing so for any other class. Historically people have excused guardians insane strength by calling it the slowest class or that it doesn't have tools like stealth. Turns out, Trapper runes make up for the only deficiencies guard had. Edit: Oh, completely forgot: They have the biggest get-out-of-jail-free card ever in the form of invulnerability.

    What is this "on demand blind" ? You mean the 1 skill on sword?

    OMG guardian has 1 skill on 1 weapon that can blind, that must mean it has perma insta infinite blind. And it's not like Rev, Ranger, Engi, Thief, Mes, Ele all have access to just as much blind? Right?

    "revive allies at range" - you're suggesting that trapper-DH is taking Signet of Mercy? What?

    "Stunbreaks for days" - the trapper-DH build runs ZERO stunbreaks. What?

    Aegis on Trapper DH? What? There's the 1 aegis from Shield 4 which has a long and obvious cast, and 1 aegis when disabled from trait, which is on 60s cd? You can't get through 2 aegis in 60s? Mesmer has more aegis than this.

    "biggest get out of jail free card in the form of invulnerability" - Trapper DH doesn't run RF, what are you talking about?

    "instant activation AoE CC" ???? If you're referring to Dragon's Maw, that isn't an instant-skill. It can't be used while disabled.

    You've imagined some magical guardian build that is taking 6 trait lines, 10 utilities and 5 weapons. This is the most ridiculous take I've ever seen.

    I can do the same with any class, be it thief, ranger, ele, engi, etc etc. I can imagine a build that is somehow using all 7 traitlines, 10+ utilities, 2 amulets simultaneously, and then list all the OP stuff this build would be able to do.

    Dh is god tier right now because it's a noob stomper build, insanely easy to use, very low skill and high reward.

    It is good even at high level because of the area denial you make over the nodes.

    It is good because you always have to waste a dodge to avoid traps, and I repeat waste, not use and doing so burn application which is ridiculously easy to produce will eat alive due to burn being the strongest damaging condition with such an easy application.

    Of course the build has counters like every other, but it on the same level as condi mirage was, scourge after pof release was, mashing buttons off cooldown while standing on the node and get rewarded.

  • ollbirtan.2915ollbirtan.2915 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Ragnar.4257 said:

    OMG guardian has 1 skill on 1 weapon that can blind, that must mean it has perma insta infinite blind. And it's not like Rev, Ranger, Engi, Thief, Mes, Ele all have access to just as much blind? Right?

    Pssst! Don't tell him FB has a whopping 1 second blind on now irrelevant Mantra of Truth. Blind 24/7!!!