Will we ever get respect from Anet? Or Thief just doesnt deserve it?

I mean.. as a thief main for all these years since beta i already had to abandon pvp/wvw mode. I forced myself to become 100% a PvE player even tho i didn't even enjoy it. But i still loved the game. So.. i tried to focus on PvE. At first i thought "alright. daredevil. assassin type class. damage must be top notch since we're all about damage". And to an extent it was true but not anymore. Not anymore since an average condi FB or Holo can easily outdps you and still bring something to the table for your team. Alright so i forced myself to reroll Guard and forget my main (that didn't last long since i dont enjoy it at all.) All we've seen since like HoT are nerfs and nerfs and complete disregard of an amazing class from Anet balance team. K so.. lets give them that. Let em take PvP/WvW but can you atleast rework something in PvE? That it would either be a top DPS class in raids (cuz we cant do anythin else) or atleast bring something to the table support wise? Mesmer would be quite a good example. They rekt the class in pvp/wvw.. but atleast they got some support builds for PvE. So can you guys wake up and respect your classes and rework Thief? We all know you love your fave child guardian but it does not mean you should abandon other classes.

PS. for those that think Thief is OP and deserves further nerfs please just .. go to your main class forums and vent there.

Teef is garbo in all modes

I main teef as well since beta.The latest nerf Session in pvp from the last 12 month killed the class.

As sindrener said in stream: cmc cannot balance the game bc he do not have the know how and the people from the pvp community who bring in the bala input in the shadow meetings with cmc r just not gud enough to bring in gud input.

Result: teef is dead

The top playzers want it and they got it

@Raiden The Beast.3016 said:Teef is garbo in all modes

I main teef as well since beta.The latest nerf Session in pvp from the last 12 month killed the class.

As sindrener said in stream: cmc cannot balance the game bc he do not have the know how and the people from the pvp community who bring in the bala input in the shadow meetings with cmc r just not gud enough to bring in gud input.

Result: teef is dead

The top playzers want it and they got it

Lol and look at the state of pvp now and how low its population is, yeah was never huge but compared to now lol. Good job anet, good thing u listened to those players. I figured sind would have left this game by now.

WvWThey can't even remove a dead dolyak hit box so it doesn't obstruct your projectiles... after 8 years!

PvEOr how about say ranger short bow trait vs our pistol trait, bit of fairness after all these years?https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Light_on_your_Feet(pistol mastery > ankle shots > to current Deadly Aim lol)

Condi dual shortbow build got simply deleted with the Choking Gas daze change. It was our one fun build that wasn't even on par at 24-28k DPS but it gave jank fun utility in group content (aoe daze+boon strip).Lady kitty one handed pistol build too got gutted.

Prepare Thousand Needles, Shadow Flare (additional +2 torment 4sec per pulse) and Caltrops need to be given the ammo count treatment.

Merge Major Adept trait Kleptomaniac into Pressure Striking in Trickery and so a new Major Adept trait takes its place named like "Relentless" : incoming stealth while under revealed effect still flips access to stealth attacks. (Does not remove revealed or give stealth, just access to the ambush attacks). 2sec ICD (to avoid abuse from shadow refuge). This new trait would allow thieves to still play non staff DPS on revealing bosses.

I still stand by that the guardian utility skill Sanctuary doing cc breakbar dmg is a bug exploit. If an enemy isn't entering or exiting the dome it shouldn't take any cc dmg. Preparation seal dome doesn't, fear ring doesn't, earth wall doesn't, static field doesn't. This double standard isn't fair. But it's fiiiiiine sun qua 100cm easy with just CFBs.

I can't argue with what you said Dave. Past few months, in order to offer more roles for raiding, I picked up playing soulbeast, the lazy easy 1 shortbow condi build. It was so ridiculously easy and still bursty enough to bring it to non condi 'meta' situations, few days later added axe axe to swap so I could do more dmg and cc. In December I picked up playing condi burn firebrand. It's one thin got hear tales and another to witness it yourself when you look at your arcdps numbers. I felt like it had to be biased fake reporting. Took only 2days to learn to provide absurdly great effectiveness.

I wouldn't mind if we'd be given back options so we can keep playing thief in different roles.I am grateful I still love my deadeye to bits and got wvw to play my heart out.

If we talk about PVE: Well don't get me wrong but first of all in places where boon thief works it is ridiculously OP if we talk about raids. Nothing is as strong as a boon thief where it is playable. Ofc you can't use it on every boss fight tho, or that would be ridiculous. Meanwhile in qadim fights it is hard to imagine squads without thieves. Game literally foces you to play thief on pylons. So Thief got it's own niche. Other than that you have pure dps DD that does the 2nd best dps on golem (39k/s). Ofc same as 1st place dps (chrono) it depends on many things to pull off that sweet DPS in real fights. Drawback is that you got no cleave nor utilities when you play thief and it is has an extremely difficult rotation.WVW: lol, thief is the best roamer, nuff saidPVP: Learn to play. Thief controls maps and carries games, no nerfs can change that. Stop being stupid and 1v1ing scrappers and crying it is a class problem.Said it many times before by many ppl: THIEF IS FINE !!!

@Armen.1483 said:If we talk about PVE: Well don't get me wrong but first of all in places where boon thief works it is ridiculously OP if we talk about raids. Nothing is as strong as a boon thief where it is playable. Ofc you can't use it on every boss fight tho, or that would be ridiculous. Meanwhile in qadim fights it is hard to imagine squads without thieves. Game literally foces you to play thief on pylons. So Thief got it's own niche. Other than that you have pure dps DD that does the 2nd best dps on golem (39k/s). Ofc same as 1st place dps (chrono) it depends on many things to pull off that sweet DPS in real fights. Drawback is that you got no cleave nor utilities when you play thief and it is has an extremely difficult rotation.WVW: lol, thief is the best roamer, nuff saidPVP: Learn to play. Thief controls maps and carries games, no nerfs can change that. Stop being stupid and 1v1ing scrappers and crying it is a class problem.Said it many times before by many ppl: THIEF IS FINE !!!

Lmao thief controls maps and carry's games and no nerfs can change that. WowYeah teefs fine cuz u say so, I'll trust ur word on it. Cant wait to see all the tourney match were gone see currently where thief carried the matches lol.Good ol gw2 forum posters, love em.

@Armen.1483 said:If we talk about PVE: Well don't get me wrong but first of all in places where boon thief works it is ridiculously OP if we talk about raids. Nothing is as strong as a boon thief where it is playable. Ofc you can't use it on every boss fight tho, or that would be ridiculous. Meanwhile in qadim fights it is hard to imagine squads without thieves. Game literally foces you to play thief on pylons. So Thief got it's own niche. Other than that you have pure dps DD that does the 2nd best dps on golem (39k/s). Ofc same as 1st place dps (chrono) it depends on many things to pull off that sweet DPS in real fights. Drawback is that you got no cleave nor utilities when you play thief and it is has an extremely difficult rotation.WVW: lol, thief is the best roamer, nuff saidPVP: Learn to play. Thief controls maps and carries games, no nerfs can change that. Stop being stupid and 1v1ing scrappers and crying it is a class problem.Said it many times before by many ppl: THIEF IS FINE !!!

PVE: too bad BT is only usable on few bosses. Outside of damage thief brings nearly nothing to raids. Chrono is example of absolute absurdity and favoritism as far as raiding goes. On my mes i can get into any group: i can tank, i can dps (both power and condi), i can provide quickness, i can provide alac if needed, the record for cairn is held... by 10 mesmers. Despite all this perks that chrono offers it is also highest dps in raids. Meanwhile a class that basically brings nothing to the group brings average damage in most encounters. You don't need DE for pylon, it is nice and it is common practice but you don't need it. Same goes in fact for BT. In WoW for example rogue also didn't bring much to the table but in the time i played it was pretty much the highest dps in raids, you would be a fool not to bring one. In GW2? All i get from Anet: please delete your thief, tnx, bye xoxo. I agree with OP: if thief is supposed to be useless piece of -insert a lot of kittens here- as far as utility/support/survivability goes then it should at least have highest dps in real fights (lol @ golems), power AND condi.

WvW: you get insta kicked from squads and flamed if you join one. So ofc all thives gonna do is roam - they are not allowed to do anything else. I do not think that roaming thieves are really that great. Successfully killing some upscaled undergeared enemies is hardly definition of strong.

PvP: yeah, thief is so OP... oh, excuse me, "FINE" atm that i have been the ONLY thief in the 99% of the matches i have done this season. But every match i have multiple necros and guards - because thief is so OP, guize. Just git gut. Can't kill anyone with more than 2 brain cells but thief is fine, guize. Because i said so. Can't hold a point by design but thief is fine, guize. Mobility got nerfed so many times that your average guard/holo can keep up with you but thief is fine, guize. Also, get reported because you dare to play thief and not reroll. Yes, it happens. But thief is fine, guize.

Thief needs a better representation in squads that is true. Sadly Anet does not want to give the thief some trait like they did with the engineer with Purity of purpose.

@"Cynz.9437" said:PVE: too bad BT is only usable on few bosses. Outside of damage thief brings nearly nothing to raids.

It isn't a situation exclusive to thiefs, thought. PvE end game is ruled by efficiency, fortunately there is more than raid/strike in the game. Personally I enjoy playing thief in open world PvE (it's a perfect profession for moving unhindered through maps and puzzles) and it's tools still allow you to steamroll over quite a few dungeons paths (Thief is ideal to cheese caudecus manor paths for example).

WvW: you get insta kicked from squads and flamed if you join one. So ofc all thives gonna do is roam - they are not allowed to do anything else. I do not think that roaming thieves are really that great. Successfully killing some upscaled undergeared enemies is hardly definition of strong.

This is again an issue of players seeking the most efficient path. However, the thief's image (due to thief's players favored gameplay) also add to the fact that they are not welcome in zerg. It's scary but most player (thief players included) think that the thief can only play in a cheesy burst playstyle while in fact the thief have a lot of option to support it's team and take a beating.

PvP: yeah, thief is so OP... oh, excuse me, "FINE" atm that i have been the ONLY thief in the 99% of the matches i have done this season. But every match i have multiple necros and guards - because thief is so OP, guize. Just git gut. Can't kill anyone with more than 2 brain cells but thief is fine, guize. Because i said so. Can't hold a point by design but thief is fine, guize. Mobility got nerfed so many times that your average guard/holo can keep up with you but thief is fine, guize. Also, get reported because you dare to play thief and not reroll. Yes, it happens. But thief is fine, guize.

Dealing damage and running around isn't all that thief is able to do. Sure, It's what have defined him in sPvP for most of the game live but it's not all he can do. Over the years thief is the profession that changed it's gameplay the least in this gamemode, both because it's perceived as needed for his role and because thiefs players are drawn toward such gameplay. Thought, nothing really prevent players to try to get creative with what the thief can do.

The issue is not whether thief is fine or not. The issue is thiefs are less effective at what they used to be the most effective, leading to an identity crisis.

@Dadnir.5038 said:

@"Cynz.9437" said:PVE: too bad BT is only usable on few bosses. Outside of damage thief brings nearly nothing to raids.

WvW: you get insta kicked from squads and flamed if you join one. So ofc all thives gonna do is roam - they are not allowed to do anything else. I do not think that roaming thieves are really that great. Successfully killing some upscaled undergeared enemies is hardly definition of strong.

PvP: yeah, thief is so OP... oh, excuse me, "FINE" atm that i have been the ONLY thief in the 99% of the matches i have done this season. But every match i have multiple necros and guards - because thief is so OP, guize. Just git gut. Can't kill anyone with more than 2 brain cells but thief is fine, guize. Because i said so. Can't hold a point by design but thief is fine, guize. Mobility got nerfed so many times that your average guard/holo can keep up with you but thief is fine, guize. Also, get reported because you dare to play thief and not reroll. Yes, it happens. But thief is fine, guize.

PvE: so you agree that thief is not efficient in end game group content (basically a reason to play this game once you reached max level). That is also the point of OP. If thief is not allowed to do anything at least it should provide best damage in pve, by far and not in some unrealistic golem environment.

WvW: no, anything thief does as "support" can be done by other classes and much better. Simple as it is. Thief is waste of spot in zergs. As you say, thief is not efficient. That is actually an additional problem if you consider their "viability" in pve.

PvP: i guess we agree on pvp point. Thief is just not great at what they are supposed to do in this game and they can't just go and take other role (and even if they did it got nerfed pretty quickly).

@Cynz.9437 said:

@Armen.1483 said:If we talk about PVE: Well don't get me wrong but first of all in places where boon thief works it is ridiculously OP if we talk about raids. Nothing is as strong as a boon thief where it is playable. Ofc you can't use it on every boss fight tho, or that would be ridiculous. Meanwhile in qadim fights it is hard to imagine squads without thieves. Game literally foces you to play thief on pylons. So Thief got it's own niche. Other than that you have pure dps DD that does the 2nd best dps on golem (39k/s). Ofc same as 1st place dps (chrono) it depends on many things to pull off that sweet DPS in real fights. Drawback is that you got no cleave nor utilities when you play thief and it is has an extremely difficult rotation.WVW: lol, thief is the best roamer, nuff saidPVP: Learn to play. Thief controls maps and carries games, no nerfs can change that. Stop being stupid and 1v1ing scrappers and crying it is a class problem.Said it many times before by many ppl: THIEF IS FINE !!!

@Armen.1483 said:If we talk about PVE: Well don't get me wrong but first of all in places where boon thief works it is ridiculously OP if we talk about raids. Nothing is as strong as a boon thief where it is playable. Ofc you can't use it on every boss fight tho, or that would be ridiculous. Meanwhile in qadim fights it is hard to imagine squads without thieves. Game literally foces you to play thief on pylons. So Thief got it's own niche. Other than that you have pure dps DD that does the 2nd best dps on golem (39k/s). Ofc same as 1st place dps (chrono) it depends on many things to pull off that sweet DPS in real fights. Drawback is that you got no cleave nor utilities when you play thief and it is has an extremely difficult rotation.WVW: lol, thief is the best roamer, nuff saidPVP: Learn to play. Thief controls maps and carries games, no nerfs can change that. Stop being stupid and 1v1ing scrappers and crying it is a class problem.Said it many times before by many ppl: THIEF IS FINE !!!

Apart from raiding you can do nothing on chrono. If you are having problems in PVP or WVW with thief, mesmer would be much worse for you. Meanwhile against all odds I see many mesmers "replace" thieves nowdays in PVP. This is because of forum posts like this. People actually believed that thief is garbage and stopped playing it. Hell it is even more fun, more mesmers I see as a thief, better for me, it is free real estate. You don't need to compare thief to chrono or a guardian anyway. Especially in PVE. Ofc boon thief is even stronger than those. It is like mirage: works on 4 bosses but it is brokenly overpowered. Same with dps thief just look at this: https://snowcrows.com/benchmarks/ Power DD, which is a lil weaker than deadeye does around 36k on golem on single target but stronger at cleaving when you need that. And ofc very good CC. So you already got 7 raid bosses where thief is not just very good, but META, in other places yes it is kinda mediocre if you compare to guardians or mesmers, but in any means not bad. I often end up top DPS on power daredevil (deadeye is just too hard to play, it has same issue as condi weaver), so I am pretty sure it is not a class problem if you fail to fill in raid groups, because me and many other thief players do it with great success. Stop whining, and rock it. Good luck wiht playing thief. Stay positive and don't be like others. Every subforum in professions whine about their classes, it is lame.

@"Cynz.9437" said:PvE: so you agree that thief is not efficient in end game group content (basically a reason to play this game once you reached max level). That is also the point of OP. If thief is not allowed to do anything at least it should provide best damage in pve, by far and not in some unrealistic golem environment.

WvW: no, anything thief does as "support" can be done by other classes and much better. Simple as it is. Thief is waste of spot in zergs. As you say, thief is not efficient. That is actually an additional problem if you consider their "viability" in pve.

My stance is a bit more subtle than that. What I say is that thief is not the most efficient choice in these gamemode but it doesn't mean that it can't be "efficient" at what he does, just that he isn't the best choice (which in the end is also the case for a lot of professions due to the "meta" centric mindset of the playerbase).

Ultimately you don't need to be the best to do the job, only players require the best (a mindset bound to exclude some professions which aren't necessarily bad in the end).

Any class can be viable.ANY class.Just the wannabe elites that copy Snowcrow's groupbuilds (Not solo builds) scream that some classes are bad

I mean fractal t4: NO thief! thief is useless in party in t4 fractals!Can someone call Hizen and tell him that, while he solo's t4 on any class (including thief) on CM?

IGNORE Snowcrows as the poor standards for Meta Builds.IGNORE the wannabe elites with their uneducated demands in their groups and their false assumptions on classes.

ANY class is viable.

@Armen.1483 said:

@Cynz.9437 said:

@Armen.1483 said:If we talk about PVE: Well don't get me wrong but first of all in places where boon thief works it is ridiculously OP if we talk about raids. Nothing is as strong as a boon thief where it is playable. Ofc you can't use it on every boss fight tho, or that would be ridiculous. Meanwhile in qadim fights it is hard to imagine squads without thieves. Game literally foces you to play thief on pylons. So Thief got it's own niche. Other than that you have pure dps DD that does the 2nd best dps on golem (39k/s). Ofc same as 1st place dps (chrono) it depends on many things to pull off that sweet DPS in real fights. Drawback is that you got no cleave nor utilities when you play thief and it is has an extremely difficult rotation.WVW: lol, thief is the best roamer, nuff saidPVP: Learn to play. Thief controls maps and carries games, no nerfs can change that. Stop being stupid and 1v1ing scrappers and crying it is a class problem.Said it many times before by many ppl: THIEF IS FINE !!!

@Armen.1483 said:If we talk about PVE: Well don't get me wrong but first of all in places where boon thief works it is ridiculously OP if we talk about raids. Nothing is as strong as a boon thief where it is playable. Ofc you can't use it on every boss fight tho, or that would be ridiculous. Meanwhile in qadim fights it is hard to imagine squads without thieves. Game literally foces you to play thief on pylons. So Thief got it's own niche. Other than that you have pure dps DD that does the 2nd best dps on golem (39k/s). Ofc same as 1st place dps (chrono) it depends on many things to pull off that sweet DPS in real fights. Drawback is that you got no cleave nor utilities when you play thief and it is has an extremely difficult rotation.WVW: lol, thief is the best roamer, nuff saidPVP: Learn to play. Thief controls maps and carries games, no nerfs can change that. Stop being stupid and 1v1ing scrappers and crying it is a class problem.Said it many times before by many ppl: THIEF IS FINE !!!

Maybe a bit off topic but are there a lot of people raiding? I never hear about raids and GW2 videos on youtube and twitch are usually spvp, wvw, and open world. Are you sure what seems like earning a META slot isn't just the overall need to fill slots, it seems like the only two raid builds I've seen for thieves are almost entirely dependent on other classes generating conditions and boons to reach any threshold. As fun as those builds might be under perfect conditions, that's a pretty narrow fit for a class that already narrowly fits into most game modes.

@kash.9213 said:

@Armen.1483 said:

@Cynz.9437 said:

@Armen.1483 said:If we talk about PVE: Well don't get me wrong but first of all in places where boon thief works it is ridiculously OP if we talk about raids. Nothing is as strong as a boon thief where it is playable. Ofc you can't use it on every boss fight tho, or that would be ridiculous. Meanwhile in qadim fights it is hard to imagine squads without thieves. Game literally foces you to play thief on pylons. So Thief got it's own niche. Other than that you have pure dps DD that does the 2nd best dps on golem (39k/s). Ofc same as 1st place dps (chrono) it depends on many things to pull off that sweet DPS in real fights. Drawback is that you got no cleave nor utilities when you play thief and it is has an extremely difficult rotation.WVW: lol, thief is the best roamer, nuff saidPVP: Learn to play. Thief controls maps and carries games, no nerfs can change that. Stop being stupid and 1v1ing scrappers and crying it is a class problem.Said it many times before by many ppl: THIEF IS FINE !!!

@Armen.1483 said:If we talk about PVE: Well don't get me wrong but first of all in places where boon thief works it is ridiculously OP if we talk about raids. Nothing is as strong as a boon thief where it is playable. Ofc you can't use it on every boss fight tho, or that would be ridiculous. Meanwhile in qadim fights it is hard to imagine squads without thieves. Game literally foces you to play thief on pylons. So Thief got it's own niche. Other than that you have pure dps DD that does the 2nd best dps on golem (39k/s). Ofc same as 1st place dps (chrono) it depends on many things to pull off that sweet DPS in real fights. Drawback is that you got no cleave nor utilities when you play thief and it is has an extremely difficult rotation.WVW: lol, thief is the best roamer, nuff saidPVP: Learn to play. Thief controls maps and carries games, no nerfs can change that. Stop being stupid and 1v1ing scrappers and crying it is a class problem.Said it many times before by many ppl: THIEF IS FINE !!!

Yes there are many people raiding up until now. Mostly people do guild runs nowdays so they are not very much visible. MightyTeapot does streams a lot when raiding, I was in his streams so many times, he likes joining random groups while streaming.

You are right about thief tho, it depends on UNIQUE condis same as DH virtue build depends on UNIQUE boons to deal tons of damage. That is why thief has a very high potential of doing very good damage but it depends on the teamcomp. But I wouldn't say it is extremely suboptimal to play thief even if some condis are missing, if you have good amount of different condis on boss, you are good to go at least on staff daredevil. If your group sucks at cc you go Daredevil too. I wouldn't recommend Deadeye (apart from pilon kiting) because it is very dependant on kneel and makes the game very difficult to play but you will have slightly more dps.I wouldn't agree with your last statement though. People were talking about chronomancer here. Chrono is only playable in Raids ( no pvp, no wvw and not fractals either). It is same thing with power dps chronomancer, he depends on slow condi which is very rare. Without slow chrono does much less damage and need to change gear. But it doesn't bother chrono players to go and play chrono when groups are suboptimal for them, that's why you see them so much. 90% of pug runs run suboptimal teamcomps for chrono. Unless your group has a condi rev or all dps players are chronos, the so much beloved chrono is very suboptmal dps. What I like to think is being a skilled player and compensate the suboptimal class dps loss with optimal rotations and pure skill.And lastly let's not forget boon thief where it is playable (it depends on bosses that give you plasma). People should play more boon thief, it is very good.

@Tuna Bandit.3786 said:Any class can be viable.ANY class.Just the wannabe elites that copy Snowcrow's groupbuilds (Not solo builds) scream that some classes are bad

I mean fractal t4: NO thief! thief is useless in party in t4 fractals!

Bro thief in fractals is very strong in skips. It is kinda badish in CM99 and 98 compared to weaver slb and DH, but pretty much playable. And I'll tell you a secret here but don't tell anyone: power thief on CM100 fractal is actually very strong

@Armen.1483 said:

@Cynz.9437 said:

@Armen.1483 said:If we talk about PVE: Well don't get me wrong but first of all in places where boon thief works it is ridiculously OP if we talk about raids. Nothing is as strong as a boon thief where it is playable. Ofc you can't use it on every boss fight tho, or that would be ridiculous. Meanwhile in qadim fights it is hard to imagine squads without thieves. Game literally foces you to play thief on pylons. So Thief got it's own niche. Other than that you have pure dps DD that does the 2nd best dps on golem (39k/s). Ofc same as 1st place dps (chrono) it depends on many things to pull off that sweet DPS in real fights. Drawback is that you got no cleave nor utilities when you play thief and it is has an extremely difficult rotation.WVW: lol, thief is the best roamer, nuff saidPVP: Learn to play. Thief controls maps and carries games, no nerfs can change that. Stop being stupid and 1v1ing scrappers and crying it is a class problem.Said it many times before by many ppl: THIEF IS FINE !!!

@Armen.1483 said:If we talk about PVE: Well don't get me wrong but first of all in places where boon thief works it is ridiculously OP if we talk about raids. Nothing is as strong as a boon thief where it is playable. Ofc you can't use it on every boss fight tho, or that would be ridiculous. Meanwhile in qadim fights it is hard to imagine squads without thieves. Game literally foces you to play thief on pylons. So Thief got it's own niche. Other than that you have pure dps DD that does the 2nd best dps on golem (39k/s). Ofc same as 1st place dps (chrono) it depends on many things to pull off that sweet DPS in real fights. Drawback is that you got no cleave nor utilities when you play thief and it is has an extremely difficult rotation.WVW: lol, thief is the best roamer, nuff saidPVP: Learn to play. Thief controls maps and carries games, no nerfs can change that. Stop being stupid and 1v1ing scrappers and crying it is a class problem.Said it many times before by many ppl: THIEF IS FINE !!!

You do realize we are not talking about specs here but about whole class. Chrono is just a spec which however gives mesmer pretty much a must-have spot in raids. Nothing stops me from switching from chrono to mirage for certain fights (which i do btw). As far as what people believe or not and what they read on forums: newsflash, only really small part of population ever goes on forums and reads them. I would bet that as far as pve goes snowcrows and metabattle (yeah, i know, lol) are more visited than this forums. And what are those sites telling people? Your group is better off with anything but a thief. I do not think that mesmer is in that bad place in pvp but it is my personal opinion. I do also however not think that thief is in that great position in pvp atm. Sure, you can make thief work, if you are good. Meanwhile you need 2 brain cells to play certain classes/specs for same reward. Given all the nerfs Anet threw at thief all this years and their refusal to give thief any kind of meaningful support capability (they actually nerfed those we had) i really would have expected that at least as far as dps in end game group content thief would have highest dps - they don't. By far. You can argue with it all you want but numbers show that in most cases you ARE better off with other classes. So what validates then Anet's logic for not giving thief anything, really anything as far as group play goes?

And for your information - yes, i can find groups as thief because i have enough LIs and KPs and multiple specs . Fact is, i need really long time to find a spot for all wings (especially those requiring condi damage) on a thief but once i got me mes/guard/rev i can almost instantly get into ANY group. I don't even want to start on fractals - nobody cares whether i can play my thief good, have good gear, know mechanics and all, played basically since launch. They just don't want one. I actually had to reroll to guard to get daily t4s done. This was my "stay positive". Once you start to play other classes you really start to realize how much more greener the grass is on the other side and that whoever designs classes and balanced spells actually does not like thief class at all. Did you know btw that some NPCs in raids don't even grant anything on steal - yeah they pay this much attention to the class. I don't even want to start on quality of the stolen spells (although they did improve them.... after years of raiding lol).

Whining on forums? What do you think forums are for? If players are happy they don't post here - they play the game. Where should one voice their concerns? You may disagree with me or OP which is fine but you can't tell other people what to do.

Thief needs some buffs so it doesn't feel underwhelming in PvE and has some use in WvW squads. On that regard thief feels worse than ranger.

@Cynz.9437 said:

If players are happy they don't post here - they play the game. Where should one voice their concerns?

Amen......

Thief deserves no respect in PvP/WvW.They function on another level due to not having actual cooldowns to punish their mistakes and misuse of skills.

Now Thief in PvE however, I would love to see buffed, especially on the cleaving front.I don't like Sword Pistol and Staff being the only real options for cleaving.

Would be nice if Dagger/Dagger 3 cleaved better for stuff like Fractals and Openworld mobbing.

@"Yasai.3549" said:Thief deserves no respect in PvP/WvW.They function on another level due to not having actual cooldowns to punish their mistakes and misuse of skills.

How do you fail to see that initiative system is as much limiting as cooldowns are? Id rather get cooldown system but be respected and buffed rather then being a shortbow5 bot. And even that was nerfed. We gotta thank to people like you that we get these treatments every balance patch. Soon we'll be gone from PvP just as much as we are gone from WvW.

WvW though.. we are on another lvl? What are u on about? We get kicked from squads. If we were really "on another" level as you say we'd be wanted and we'd take up majority of squads. Just go to WvW. Join a commander and count how many classes there are and i assure you you'll either find 0 thieves or max 1-2 thieves in that squad.

@"Dave.6819" said:

How do you fail to see that initiative system is as much limiting as cooldowns are? Id rather get cooldown system but be respected and buffed rather then being a shortbow5 bot. And even that was nerfed. We gotta thank to people like you that we get these treatments every balance patch. Soon we'll be gone from PvP just as much as we are gone from WvW.

Yur welcome.Ini system is a scourge just as much as Rev's bloated skills with high Energy costs.I've mentioned before in many threads I rather Thieves have cooldowns and actual good skills instead of situationally powerful spam skills.

WvW though.. we are on another lvl? What are u on about? We get kicked from squads. If we were really "on another" level as you say we'd be wanted and we'd take up majority of squads. Just go to WvW. Join a commander and count how many classes there are and i assure you you'll either find 0 thieves or max 1-2 thieves in that squad.

It has nothing to do with zerg play at all.They simply take actions way faster at higher frequencies thanks to Ini mechanic.

Thief Shortbow 5 was the perfect example of this before it was nerfed :There is simply no catching up to someone who can teleport 900 range 3 times in a row tops with no delay.

@Armen.1483 said:

@kash.9213 said:

@Armen.1483 said:

@Cynz.9437 said:

@Armen.1483 said:If we talk about PVE: Well don't get me wrong but first of all in places where boon thief works it is ridiculously OP if we talk about raids. Nothing is as strong as a boon thief where it is playable. Ofc you can't use it on every boss fight tho, or that would be ridiculous. Meanwhile in qadim fights it is hard to imagine squads without thieves. Game literally foces you to play thief on pylons. So Thief got it's own niche. Other than that you have pure dps DD that does the 2nd best dps on golem (39k/s). Ofc same as 1st place dps (chrono) it depends on many things to pull off that sweet DPS in real fights. Drawback is that you got no cleave nor utilities when you play thief and it is has an extremely difficult rotation.WVW: lol, thief is the best roamer, nuff saidPVP: Learn to play. Thief controls maps and carries games, no nerfs can change that. Stop being stupid and 1v1ing scrappers and crying it is a class problem.Said it many times before by many ppl: THIEF IS FINE !!!

@Armen.1483 said:If we talk about PVE: Well don't get me wrong but first of all in places where boon thief works it is ridiculously OP if we talk about raids. Nothing is as strong as a boon thief where it is playable. Ofc you can't use it on every boss fight tho, or that would be ridiculous. Meanwhile in qadim fights it is hard to imagine squads without thieves. Game literally foces you to play thief on pylons. So Thief got it's own niche. Other than that you have pure dps DD that does the 2nd best dps on golem (39k/s). Ofc same as 1st place dps (chrono) it depends on many things to pull off that sweet DPS in real fights. Drawback is that you got no cleave nor utilities when you play thief and it is has an extremely difficult rotation.WVW: lol, thief is the best roamer, nuff saidPVP: Learn to play. Thief controls maps and carries games, no nerfs can change that. Stop being stupid and 1v1ing scrappers and crying it is a class problem.Said it many times before by many ppl: THIEF IS FINE !!!

I played around Premeditation and boon steal in WvW for a long time awhile ago, it was passable on my own but against players I can steal full stacks. Still it was nice when floating around squads, friendly and badguy sources at the same time in big fights could really load you up.

@Yasai.3549 said:

@"Dave.6819" said:

How do you fail to see that initiative system is as much limiting as cooldowns are? Id rather get cooldown system but be respected and buffed rather then being a shortbow5 bot. And even that was nerfed. We gotta thank to people like you that we get these treatments every balance patch. Soon we'll be gone from PvP just as much as we are gone from WvW.

WvW though.. we are on another lvl? What are u on about? We get kicked from squads. If we were really "on another" level as you say we'd be wanted and we'd take up majority of squads. Just go to WvW. Join a commander and count how many classes there are and i assure you you'll either find 0 thieves or max 1-2 thieves in that squad.

That's more or less a problem specific to Shortbow and to some extent D/P's overloaded skills more than an issue with the initiative system itself.Most of the other professions get access to the same number of skill casts per time, if not more, with their separate cooldowns.The only thing initiative allows for is the use of the same skill twice in a row. Which is powerful, but less so than you'd expect for most of the thief's skills.

Is spamming Dancing Dagger, Cloak and Dagger, Death Blossom, Shadow Strike, Infil Strike/Return, Headshot, BP, Cluster Bomb, Choking Gas, or Disabling Shot, Body Shot, or Unload a problem?No, because those skills don't really individually change a fight or lack counters.

Target the specific skills, not the higher-level mechanics. I'm tired of people saying "nerf thief" when their sole gripe is and always has been "Nerf D/P's safety/fight control (such as SShot, Dash, and stacked stealth while having the free option for a SB alternate for IArrow as strictly as a getawat with so much innate power on the primary kit)."

Because historically, the other builds/core skills/mechanics aren't having such a high impact at all, because they're balanced if not even weak. It's usually something about a fundamentally broken specific interaction more than the class itself.

And if you don't know what the skills do, their relative strength, usefulness, etc., why the hell are you complaining about a class being OP if you don't know how it works at all?

And if you don't know what the skills do, their relative strength, usefulness, etc., why the hell are you complaining about a class being OP if you don't know how it works at all?

Mesmer says hi, as well as mesmers say suck it up.Thieves are extremely dominant in WvW and as far as spvp goes with thieves being replaced by mesmers simply is not true.