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Champions Part 2 [lore discussion]

EdwinLi.1284EdwinLi.1284 Member ✭✭✭
edited January 12, 2021 in Lore

The new Trailer is released and we a glimps into a bit of the reasons and mind set of Jormag's minions and beliefs. Along with a glimps of this war turning into a three way war.

Jormag's minions are following the belief of preserving the world in Ice so it remains protected as was suspected in past discussions and ingame dialogue. It will preserve everything exactly the way they are forever in Ice but nothing will ever change for eternity. It is Jormag's ideal world where everything is protected and everything remains the same forever just like being frozen in Ice.

What do you think about recent upcoming developments, where it may go, and why it may happen?

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Comments

  • Svennis.3852Svennis.3852 Member ✭✭✭
    edited January 12, 2021

    An accelerated story is to be expected, but I did not anticipate Jormag becoming hostile toward us this soon. I figured the ruse of a 'truce' would be drawn out till chapter 3 or 4, but I suppose we don't have that kind of time.

    Do Svanir sometimes cover themselves in ice, or is that only for those corrupted into Icebrood? I thought for a moment perhaps these are a rogue faction of Svanir going against our truce, but that seems unlikely. I could see them being upset about Jormag selecting a charr champion instead of someone from the Sons of Svanir, but I don't think corrupted Icebrood would be able to go against Jormag's wishes.

    There is a prominent Svanir in the trailer not covered in ice though. I wonder if this could be another champion of Jormag gifted with more freedom than the average Icebrood.

  • Chaos.7614Chaos.7614 Member ✭✭
    edited January 13, 2021

    @EdwinLi.1284 said:
    The new Trailer is released and we a glimps into a bit of the reasons and mind set of Jormag's minions and beliefs. Along with a glimps of this war turning into a three way war.
    Jormag's minions are following the belief of preserving the world in Ice so it remains protected as was suspected in past discussions and ingame dialogue. It will preserve everything exactly the way they are forever in Ice but nothing will ever change for eternity. It is Jormag's ideal world where everything is protected and everything remains the same forever just like being frozen in Ice.

    I never really bought into this being a three-way war; Jormag was never really on our side since it's idea of preserving the world is covering it in ice and having everything stagnate. Primordus is the polar opposite extreme of plunging everything into chaos and destroying everything until it consumes enough magic to sleep again. Obviously, neither are good endpoints for Tyria and we're just caught in the crossfire - they're both enemies in the end.

    What do you think about recent upcoming developments, where it may go, and why it may happen?

    The "truce" we have with Jormag really only applies to when we engage in the more powerful and immediate threat of destroyers, so it's not a permanent peace - this means we're on a timer for figuring out how to stabilize the balance of magic when a dragon is destroyed. The nature of this fight means that one dragon or the other is going to die, or at least weaken and release large amounts of magic back into the world. I think that our journey to Cantha is going to be about finding a way to harness dragon energy and recirculate it, essentially finding replacements for the dragons. The EoD trailer said that "[mortals] built new lives upon the very thing that sought to end theirs", which I think is a reference to the Deep Sea Dragon.

    It's a bit far-fetched, but I think that the Empire of the Dragon has found a way to control the Deep Sea Dragon/harness its energy/make it benevolent, and the reason they've been so isolationist aside from Zhaitan's rise is because they were waiting for the right time to take over the rest of Tyria and Elona. The rest of the world has had to deal with dragons rising and thus expend their energy opposing them, while the Empire of the Dragon continues to use the DSD's power to strengthen its military. This would hold a bit more weight if the rulers of Cantha have upheld Emperor Usoku's isolationist and Canthan supremacy philosophy.

    I wouldn't be surprised if we saw our arrival in Cantha begin with a massive destroyer assault on the southern aspect of Cantha, using the chaos to infiltrate our way into Kaineng City and finding the exact mechanism of how the Empire is harnessing dragon energy so we could apply that to making beings capable of circulating magic on a large-scale.

  • draxynnic.3719draxynnic.3719 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Jormag was showing pretty clear signs of being Not Really Our Friend to anyone who's had experience with abusive relationships (noting that this does not need to mean abusive "romantic" relationships).

    Regarding Cantha - the DSD connection is possible, but I've generally thought the link might simply be "we need more dragons to replace the Elder Dragons, Cantha has/had dragons that are friendly to mortals.

  • EdwinLi.1284EdwinLi.1284 Member ✭✭✭
    edited January 13, 2021

    @Chaos.7614 said:

    @EdwinLi.1284 said:
    The new Trailer is released and we a glimps into a bit of the reasons and mind set of Jormag's minions and beliefs. Along with a glimps of this war turning into a three way war.
    Jormag's minions are following the belief of preserving the world in Ice so it remains protected as was suspected in past discussions and ingame dialogue. It will preserve everything exactly the way they are forever in Ice but nothing will ever change for eternity. It is Jormag's ideal world where everything is protected and everything remains the same forever just like being frozen in Ice.

    I never really bought into this being a three-way war; Jormag was never really on our side since it's idea of preserving the world is covering it in ice and having everything stagnate. Primordus is the polar opposite extreme of plunging everything into chaos and destroying everything until it consumes enough magic to sleep again. Obviously, neither are good endpoints for Tyria and we're just caught in the crossfire - they're both enemies in the end.

    What do you think about recent upcoming developments, where it may go, and why it may happen?

    The "truce" we have with Jormag really only applies to when we engage in the more powerful and immediate threat of destroyers, so it's not a permanent peace - this means we're on a timer for figuring out how to stabilize the balance of magic when a dragon is destroyed. The nature of this fight means that one dragon or the other is going to die, or at least weaken and release large amounts of magic back into the world. I think that our journey to Cantha is going to be about finding a way to harness dragon energy and recirculate it, essentially finding replacements for the dragons. The EoD trailer said that "[mortals] built new lives upon the very thing that sought to end theirs", which I think is a reference to the Deep Sea Dragon.

    It's a bit far-fetched, but I think that the Empire of the Dragon has found a way to control the Deep Sea Dragon/harness its energy/make it benevolent, and the reason they've been so isolationist aside from Zhaitan's rise is because they were waiting for the right time to take over the rest of Tyria and Elona. The rest of the world has had to deal with dragons rising and thus expend their energy opposing them, while the Empire of the Dragon continues to use the DSD's power to strengthen its military. This would hold a bit more weight if the rulers of Cantha have upheld Emperor Usoku's isolationist and Canthan supremacy philosophy.

    I wouldn't be surprised if we saw our arrival in Cantha begin with a massive destroyer assault on the southern aspect of Cantha, using the chaos to infiltrate our way into Kaineng City and finding the exact mechanism of how the Empire is harnessing dragon energy so we could apply that to making beings capable of circulating magic on a large-scale.

    Well in my eyes it is a three way way but simply developed into it due to Primordus joining in the middle of the already on going war between the Commander/Pact/Alliance vs Jormag.

    The War started simply started with the Commander/Pact/Alliance vs Jormag but then Primordus and his minions joined right after Jormag's awakening.

    I suspect for a while the Truce was Jormag's way to seeing who can be tricked into joining her due to conflicting ideals of trusting Jormag or not to trust her due to different groups having different opinions towards Primordus joining the conflict.

    @draxynnic.3719 said:
    Jormag was showing pretty clear signs of being Not Really Our Friend to anyone who's had experience with abusive relationships (noting that this does not need to mean abusive "romantic" relationships).

    Regarding Cantha - the DSD connection is possible, but I've generally thought the link might simply be "we need more dragons to replace the Elder Dragons, Cantha has/had dragons that are friendly to mortals.

    However, in a way she does not really lie about what she promise to give them but the promise is only twisted as a result.

    It is like making a deal with the Devil, the Devil will give you what you want but your soul is now his in return. The Son of Svanir were very simple in their demands being for them to have more power thus Jormag gave them more power as promised. However, we also see more complicated forms of desires Jormags seek to keep such as with Ryland being to be recognized and given what he believe his right due to all his hard work which it is given to him by making him the Champion and leader of the Icebroods.

    There is also Olar who we killed in Episode 1 where he is promised that he will never be abandoned again if he joined Jormag's forces and he got what he wanted being now a member of a group who will never abandon him. However, he must now serve Jormag in return.

  • draxynnic.3719draxynnic.3719 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Lying isn't the only way someone can be abusive.

    For instance, what really tipped me off is Jormag's discussion with Aurene in the first instance. They're telling her that mortals can't help her, that what she's been trying to accomplish is a fantasy, and that only with Jormag can she reach her full potential. That's a pretty blatant isolating technique.

    I've gone into some more detail here. (So glad I got that up BEFORE the teaser, if only by a day.)

  • Hypnowulf.7403Hypnowulf.7403 Member ✭✭✭

    I have raised awareness of this elsewhere but I will do so here too, succinctly, for the sake of notice. Where is the Frost legion? All is not as it seems.

  • Fueki.4753Fueki.4753 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I can only see two plausible ways for the story to go:
    1) Jormag outright "betrays" the truce (which never actually existed to begin with).
    Everyone will be "surprised".

    2) It'll be a situation where Jormag tells the Svanir to attack us and then tells use that they did it on their own volition.
    And the brain-dead commander and followers will belief Jormag.

    At this point, I don't think Arenanet can salvage Season 5 into anything even resembling an almost-decent story.

  • Svennis.3852Svennis.3852 Member ✭✭✭

    @Fueki.4753 said:
    I can only see two plausible ways for the story to go:
    1) Jormag outright "betrays" the truce (which never actually existed to begin with).
    Everyone will be "surprised".

    2) It'll be a situation where Jormag tells the Svanir to attack us and then tells use that they did it on their own volition.
    And the brain-dead commander and followers will belief Jormag.

    At this point, I don't think Arenanet can salvage Season 5 into anything even resembling an almost-decent story.

    This is my fear. The current interactions with Jormag seem to require the Commander and Co. to be dumbed down. I think it'll come down to 'persuasion magic' in the end, so it's technically not our fault we were gullible because we, along with Aurene, were being subtly influenced by Jormag's magical domain. In the past we've usually had some indication people are being influenced by Jormag though, or at least Jormag via Drakkar. If the resolution is 'we made a mistake' it's going to have to be perfectly written and executed with all the proper reasoning and evidence, or else I'll be so disappointed and upset. I am still not over Jormag telling us the balance is fake and no one making a peep. The only excusable explanation is magical manipulation, and even that feels like a weak argument, though one I could accept with proper build-up and explanation.

    Something GW2 devs seem to do a lot is leave things vague in game, and then 'confirm' or explain things in dev talks, which is... bad. These things should be clear in the context of the game.

  • EdwinLi.1284EdwinLi.1284 Member ✭✭✭
    edited January 13, 2021

    @Svennis.3852 said:

    @Fueki.4753 said:
    I can only see two plausible ways for the story to go:
    1) Jormag outright "betrays" the truce (which never actually existed to begin with).
    Everyone will be "surprised".

    2) It'll be a situation where Jormag tells the Svanir to attack us and then tells use that they did it on their own volition.
    And the brain-dead commander and followers will belief Jormag.

    At this point, I don't think Arenanet can salvage Season 5 into anything even resembling an almost-decent story.

    This is my fear. The current interactions with Jormag seem to require the Commander and Co. to be dumbed down. I think it'll come down to 'persuasion magic' in the end, so it's technically not our fault we were gullible because we, along with Aurene, were being subtly influenced by Jormag's magical domain. In the past we've usually had some indication people are being influenced by Jormag though, or at least Jormag via Drakkar. If the resolution is 'we made a mistake' it's going to have to be perfectly written and executed with all the proper reasoning and evidence, or else I'll be so disappointed and upset. I am still not over Jormag telling us the balance is fake and no one making a peep. The only excusable explanation is magical manipulation, and even that feels like a weak argument, though one I could accept with proper build-up and explanation.

    Something GW2 devs seem to do a lot is leave things vague in game, and then 'confirm' or explain things in dev talks, which is... bad. These things should be clear in the context of the game.

    Well magical influence of a person's thoughts and desires have been Jormag's thing since Icebrood Saga began. We see it in episode 1 and episode 2 as simply whispers that slowly leaves words of doubt and temptation. The stronger the voice gets the weaker the will the person Jormag whispers to is but it is still easy to tell that voice is not their own but another being's voice so people could resist it willingly. However, that is during a time Jormag is still sleeping and that means the temptation magic used may have been very weak despite its strong influence during that time.

    Now Jormag is awake, it is possible she can use it to a point that people may not hear whispers of another being trying to tempt them but hear voices of themselves thus they think they are thinking these things but it is actually a fake voice that sounds like themselves to trick them into thinking they are thinking these things.

  • @Svennis.3852 said:
    An accelerated story is to be expected, but I did not anticipate Jormag becoming hostile toward us this soon. I figured the ruse of a 'truce' would be drawn out till chapter 3 or 4, but I suppose we don't have that kind of time.

    I'm not sure this is Jormag. The leader seems to be a non-corrupted Son of Svanir, so he's acting independently. The icebrood norn are established as pretty much mindless, so it following another of power makes sense. Jormag is largely in the "does not care" / apathetic area when it comes to killing individuals and cares more about preserving the world itself, so it probably doesn't care how the free willed followers do things so long as the end goal is met.

    @Svennis.3852 said:
    Do Svanir sometimes cover themselves in ice, or is that only for those corrupted into Icebrood? I thought for a moment perhaps these are a rogue faction of Svanir going against our truce, but that seems unlikely. I could see them being upset about Jormag selecting a charr champion instead of someone from the Sons of Svanir, but I don't think corrupted Icebrood would be able to go against Jormag's wishes.

    Only the corrupted become Icebrood. A short reference would be:

    • "Son of Svanir" = not corrupted
    • "Svanir" = corrupted

    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.

  • Sajuuk Khar.1509Sajuuk Khar.1509 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 14, 2021

    So part 1 gave us the Crystal Bloom, and Seraph, allied factions.
    Part 2 is giving us the Stone Dwarves, and based on the release page's comment about "floating" the Exalted.
    Part 3 looks like its giving us the Tengu, Skritt, and a 3rd one... possibly Kodan? based on the trailer for part 1.

    Also, given that one of the new DRMs is located in Snowden Drifts, I wouldn't be surprised if they include the ruined Owl lodge in it, and we got some more info about Owl's return in it.

  • @Svennis.3852 said:
    An accelerated story is to be expected, but I did not anticipate Jormag becoming hostile toward us this soon. I figured the ruse of a 'truce' would be drawn out till chapter 3 or 4, but I suppose we don't have that kind of time.

    This chapter is titled "Power". Which is sorta Jormag's thing and means of persuasion so far. From that reasoning, I though it was kind of obvious that this chapter would focus on Jormag. Jormag is not friendly, and Jormag's power, has only one use, to crush and convert mortals. So getting assaulted by it seems most likely. The next chapter is "Balance" which is definitely something related to Aurene. I don't think we will fight Aurene, that would be a bit odd, but the Commander's patience with Aurenes aloofness is wearing thing, so some kind of reckoning might occur there. So we will have a chapter on Primordus, Jormag, and Aurene. The final chapter is "Judgement" and should be the finale... but with EOD, I suspect it will be more or less a plot bridge to Cantha (waves to season 2 final episode). Then there is the last known (unknown) dragon. Going into EOD I would expect all the dragons to have been introduced before being sent off into obsolescence, so I suspect the chapter might finally pull back the curtain on that thing... Raveling that thing might just make all these DRMs worth it.

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    I'm not sure this is Jormag. The leader seems to be a non-corrupted Son of Svanir, so he's acting independently. The icebrood norn are established as pretty much mindless, so it following another of power makes sense. Jormag is largely in the "does not care" / apathetic area when it comes to killing individuals and cares more about preserving the world itself, so it probably doesn't care how the free willed followers do things so long as the end goal is met.

    Can the Son's of Svanir summon a cold blast that completely freezes the area and create free standing ice structures. All without at least the blessing of Jormag? The trailer shows Mantle's Breach and large parts of Lake Doric completely frozen over. Also Divinity's Reach defenses are active in the map too. Jormag seems to have begun assaulting the rest of Tyria bringing worse than Shiverpeaks weather down the mountains and across the region. Freezing Divinity's Reach is hostile regardless of how much Jormag says it wants to be nice.

  • draxynnic.3719draxynnic.3719 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Svennis.3852 said:

    @Fueki.4753 said:
    I can only see two plausible ways for the story to go:
    1) Jormag outright "betrays" the truce (which never actually existed to begin with).
    Everyone will be "surprised".

    2) It'll be a situation where Jormag tells the Svanir to attack us and then tells use that they did it on their own volition.
    And the brain-dead commander and followers will belief Jormag.

    At this point, I don't think Arenanet can salvage Season 5 into anything even resembling an almost-decent story.

    This is my fear. The current interactions with Jormag seem to require the Commander and Co. to be dumbed down. I think it'll come down to 'persuasion magic' in the end, so it's technically not our fault we were gullible because we, along with Aurene, were being subtly influenced by Jormag's magical domain. In the past we've usually had some indication people are being influenced by Jormag though, or at least Jormag via Drakkar. If the resolution is 'we made a mistake' it's going to have to be perfectly written and executed with all the proper reasoning and evidence, or else I'll be so disappointed and upset. I am still not over Jormag telling us the balance is fake and no one making a peep. The only excusable explanation is magical manipulation, and even that feels like a weak argument, though one I could accept with proper build-up and explanation.

    Something GW2 devs seem to do a lot is leave things vague in game, and then 'confirm' or explain things in dev talks, which is... bad. These things should be clear in the context of the game.

    I don't think we're likely to see the Commander buy in to what Jormag is saying here. The Commander has been pretty consistently supportive of Braham in previous parts of the Icebrood Saga, and was pretty sceptical of Ryland, his relationship to Jormag, and the Frost Legion in "Truce". I don't think it's going to be the Commander being the gullible one here - if nothing else, the Commander is keeping in mind the prophecy involving Braham and expecting it to come to a head sometime.

    The bigger potential problem is that Jormag is clearly getting to some of the others. With that said, though, the asura seem to have been the only ones who have really bought in so far. Caithe is polite with Ryland, but sceptical, and starts pushing back harder when Ryland starts gaslighting her and the Commander - given her past experience with Faolain, she possibly recognised what Ryland was doing.

  • Sajuuk Khar.1509Sajuuk Khar.1509 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 14, 2021

    @draxynnic.3719 said:
    I don't think we're likely to see the Commander buy in to what Jormag is saying here. The Commander has been pretty consistently supportive of Braham in previous parts of the Icebrood Saga, and was pretty sceptical of Ryland, his relationship to Jormag, and the Frost Legion in "Truce". I don't think it's going to be the Commander being the gullible one here - if nothing else, the Commander is keeping in mind the prophecy involving Braham and expecting it to come to a head sometime.

    This. The Commander hasn't ever bought into Jormag's BS this whole Saga, and I don't see them doing it now.
    Even back in episode 2 when Braham, Rytlock, and Crecia, fell under the Whisper's power it was the Commander who fought it.

  • Fueki.4753Fueki.4753 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @draxynnic.3719 said:
    The Commander has been pretty consistently supportive of Braham in previous parts of the Icebrood Saga, and was pretty sceptical of Ryland, his relationship to Jormag, and the Frost Legion in "Truce". I don't think it's going to be the Commander being the gullible one here - if nothing else, the Commander is keeping in mind the prophecy involving Braham and expecting it to come to a head sometime.

    The commander didn't smash Ryland to pieces as soon as possible.
    To me, that's far more than enough of an indicator that the commander is buying into Jormag's story.

  • Sajuuk Khar.1509Sajuuk Khar.1509 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Fueki.4753 said:
    The commander didn't smash Ryland to pieces as soon as possible.
    To me, that's far more than enough of an indicator that the commander is buying into Jormag's story.

    Not being a psychopath who just kills everything on sight doesn't mean your buying into anything.

  • Fueki.4753Fueki.4753 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 14, 2021

    @Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

    @Fueki.4753 said:
    The commander didn't smash Ryland to pieces as soon as possible.
    To me, that's far more than enough of an indicator that the commander is buying into Jormag's story.

    Not being a psychopath who just kills everything on sight doesn't mean your buying into anything.

    He's a non-Aurene Dragon Champion, thus a big danger to Tyria.
    Despite what Jormag says, it does not care for Tyria's safety.
    There is literally no benefit in allowing Ryland to continue existing, but too many possible detriments.
    The commander ought to know that.

    That is, Arenanet pulls something that unrealistically and unreasonably makes Jormag a good dragon, which would shatter the last remnants of cohesive story-telling. And in doing so, Arenanet would make a literal joke of the entire story.

  • hugo.4705hugo.4705 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @draxynnic.3719 said:

    @Svennis.3852 said:

    @Fueki.4753 said:
    I can only see two plausible ways for the story to go:
    1) Jormag outright "betrays" the truce (which never actually existed to begin with).
    Everyone will be "surprised".

    2) It'll be a situation where Jormag tells the Svanir to attack us and then tells use that they did it on their own volition.
    And the brain-dead commander and followers will belief Jormag.

    At this point, I don't think Arenanet can salvage Season 5 into anything even resembling an almost-decent story.

    This is my fear. The current interactions with Jormag seem to require the Commander and Co. to be dumbed down. I think it'll come down to 'persuasion magic' in the end, so it's technically not our fault we were gullible because we, along with Aurene, were being subtly influenced by Jormag's magical domain. In the past we've usually had some indication people are being influenced by Jormag though, or at least Jormag via Drakkar. If the resolution is 'we made a mistake' it's going to have to be perfectly written and executed with all the proper reasoning and evidence, or else I'll be so disappointed and upset. I am still not over Jormag telling us the balance is fake and no one making a peep. The only excusable explanation is magical manipulation, and even that feels like a weak argument, though one I could accept with proper build-up and explanation.

    Something GW2 devs seem to do a lot is leave things vague in game, and then 'confirm' or explain things in dev talks, which is... bad. These things should be clear in the context of the game.

    I don't think we're likely to see the Commander buy in to what Jormag is saying here. The Commander has been pretty consistently supportive of Braham in previous parts of the Icebrood Saga, and was pretty sceptical of Ryland, his relationship to Jormag, and the Frost Legion in "Truce". I don't think it's going to be the Commander being the gullible one here - if nothing else, the Commander is keeping in mind the prophecy involving Braham and expecting it to come to a head sometime.

    The bigger potential problem is that Jormag is clearly getting to some of the others. With that said, though, the asura seem to have been the only ones who have really bought in so far. Caithe is polite with Ryland, but sceptical, and starts pushing back harder when Ryland starts gaslighting her and the Commander - given her past experience with Faolain, she possibly recognised what Ryland was doing.

    Dunno about the asura, maybe taimi, but if you see the end of the dock instance the council or haia said that asura are enough strong to defend themselves but she thanks about the gesture and alliance. To me is that tjey discussed, but asura stay independant and don't really made a traty or anything with ryland. In the first instance too, only three councillors, what about opinions of others?
    Seeing that asura got nuked by primordius underground because they were confident, don't see why the story wouldn't repeat itself.
    The dialogue don't really hint as alliance, it would have ended more like "you proven to be worthy and a correct ace in the hand for what is upcoming, the alliance is concluded, you and your troops are free to patrol around" it's the opposite in the in game dialogue.

    I'm worried for taimi that seems pro jormag and said skrittshit in drm metrica, gorrik seems to have it's head with rytlock and braham and commander that are against/not trusting jormag. Dunno about jora, marjory, kasmeer, canach, but don't think they like jormag either.

    Shiny links, take a look!
    ->Ideas: Housing , Designing a new lounge , New GameMode
    ->Project: ASURAN/PRIMORDIUS EXPANSION available on WIKI.
    ->NEW: Crucible of Eternity path 4: Legacy on WIKI
    ->NEW Asurapedia

  • draxynnic.3719draxynnic.3719 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 14, 2021

    @Fueki.4753 said:

    @draxynnic.3719 said:
    The Commander has been pretty consistently supportive of Braham in previous parts of the Icebrood Saga, and was pretty sceptical of Ryland, his relationship to Jormag, and the Frost Legion in "Truce". I don't think it's going to be the Commander being the gullible one here - if nothing else, the Commander is keeping in mind the prophecy involving Braham and expecting it to come to a head sometime.

    The commander didn't smash Ryland to pieces as soon as possible.
    To me, that's far more than enough of an indicator that the commander is buying into Jormag's story.

    There's a wide spectrum between killing someone at the first reasonable opportunity and believing everything they say.

    At the moment, I think the Commander's attitude is "the enemy's enemy is my enemy's enemy." I don't think the Commander has any reasonable expectation of an outcome that doesn't involve bringing Jormag down, but if Jormag can be made to help in fighting Primordus at least a little before it becomes a three-way war, that's better than precipitating the three-way war right away. Attacking Ryland at the first opportunity would essentially be a declaration of war, at a point where there's little benefit to doing so except perhaps deny Jormag some tactical insight.

    The Commander has been sceptical of Ryland in all their discussions, and even if the Commander was willing to declare war right away, attacking Ryland in Rata Sum when he was there as the Arcane Council's guest would probably have just got the Commander arrested, and doing so in Brisban Wildlands may have been the distraction that led to destroyers (or Frost Legion reinforcements) winning there. Ryland hightailed out of there pretty quickly (via portal) after the region was secured.

    @hugo.4705 said:

    @draxynnic.3719 said:

    @Svennis.3852 said:

    @Fueki.4753 said:
    I can only see two plausible ways for the story to go:
    1) Jormag outright "betrays" the truce (which never actually existed to begin with).
    Everyone will be "surprised".

    2) It'll be a situation where Jormag tells the Svanir to attack us and then tells use that they did it on their own volition.
    And the brain-dead commander and followers will belief Jormag.

    At this point, I don't think Arenanet can salvage Season 5 into anything even resembling an almost-decent story.

    This is my fear. The current interactions with Jormag seem to require the Commander and Co. to be dumbed down. I think it'll come down to 'persuasion magic' in the end, so it's technically not our fault we were gullible because we, along with Aurene, were being subtly influenced by Jormag's magical domain. In the past we've usually had some indication people are being influenced by Jormag though, or at least Jormag via Drakkar. If the resolution is 'we made a mistake' it's going to have to be perfectly written and executed with all the proper reasoning and evidence, or else I'll be so disappointed and upset. I am still not over Jormag telling us the balance is fake and no one making a peep. The only excusable explanation is magical manipulation, and even that feels like a weak argument, though one I could accept with proper build-up and explanation.

    Something GW2 devs seem to do a lot is leave things vague in game, and then 'confirm' or explain things in dev talks, which is... bad. These things should be clear in the context of the game.

    I don't think we're likely to see the Commander buy in to what Jormag is saying here. The Commander has been pretty consistently supportive of Braham in previous parts of the Icebrood Saga, and was pretty sceptical of Ryland, his relationship to Jormag, and the Frost Legion in "Truce". I don't think it's going to be the Commander being the gullible one here - if nothing else, the Commander is keeping in mind the prophecy involving Braham and expecting it to come to a head sometime.

    The bigger potential problem is that Jormag is clearly getting to some of the others. With that said, though, the asura seem to have been the only ones who have really bought in so far. Caithe is polite with Ryland, but sceptical, and starts pushing back harder when Ryland starts gaslighting her and the Commander - given her past experience with Faolain, she possibly recognised what Ryland was doing.

    Dunno about the asura, maybe taimi, but if you see the end of the dock instance the council or haia said that asura are enough strong to defend themselves but she thanks about the gesture and alliance. To me is that tjey discussed, but asura stay independant and don't really made a traty or anything with ryland. In the first instance too, only three councillors, what about opinions of others?
    Seeing that asura got nuked by primordius underground because they were confident, don't see why the story wouldn't repeat itself.
    The dialogue don't really hint as alliance, it would have ended more like "you proven to be worthy and a correct ace in the hand for what is upcoming, the alliance is concluded, you and your troops are free to patrol around" it's the opposite in the in game dialogue.

    I'm worried for taimi that seems pro jormag and said skrittshit in drm metrica, gorrik seems to have it's head with rytlock and braham and commander that are against/not trusting jormag. Dunno about jora, marjory, kasmeer, canach, but don't think they like jormag either.

    And like I said above, there's a spectrum. The Arcane Council don't trust Jormag enough to have icebrood (even intelligent icebrood like the Frost Legion) stationed in their city... or perhaps their refusal is more of a matter of pride (something they have in spades). The impression I get, though, is that the Arcane Council might at least be considering the idea that long-term coexistence with Jormag is possible, while I think the Commander, at least for now, has ruled that out due to the prophecy (and possibly because the Commander has seen what Jormag has already done and doesn't buy the "I did what I had to to survive" justification). Come to think on it, one other part of the Commander's viewpoint is that while Jormag can speak honeyed words when talking to mortals, they seem to have forgotten (or not realised) that the Commander was listening in while Jormag was expressing absolute contempt towards mortals to Aurene.

  • EdwinLi.1284EdwinLi.1284 Member ✭✭✭
    edited January 14, 2021

    A important thing I think we need to consider is the order of the upcoming missions. Assuming there is maybe only 3 new missions, it is possible the first two focus on Primordus minions and the last one is when Jormag minions attack.

    If I have to guess Mission 1 to 5 (the first 3 missions we have now + first 2 missions of the upcoming update) are probably the focus on Primordus army and once we defeat the Destroyer Wyvern boss in Mission 5 then mission 6 happens with Jormag attacking. She may see that both the Commander/Pact/Alliance and Primordus have been weakened from their conflict just enough for Jormag to now consider taking them all out at once during their weakened state

    Heck the fake Truce negotiations may have been Jormag's plan to set soldiers within major locations of each Kingdom where Destroyers have been sighted which could be the reason why the Son of Svanir got so close to Divinity's Reach. Trust was not needed to make this possible, only the threat of Destroyers and appearing as diplomats there to aid them against the Destroyers may have been enough for them to be allowed to get close to these locations. We should probably expect one of the upcoming missions in Part 3 to focus on the Frost Legion attack from within Rata Sum as well since Ryland already place agents within Rata Sum under the pretense of helping with protecting the City from Destroyers.

    If this is the case then Ryland may have been smart enough to sabotage key locations within Rata Sum. Worst case, Ryland's possible attack in Rata Sum may end up successful in killing alot of people and Taimi being among them considering how Taimi and many Asura are willing to let Ryland and his Frost Legion up close.

  • @EdwinLi.1284 said:
    A important thing I think we need to consider is the order of the upcoming missions. Assuming there is maybe only 3 new missions, it is possible the first two focus on Primordus minions and the last one is when Jormag minions attack.

    If I have to guess Mission 1 to 5 (the first 3 missions we have now + first 2 missions of the upcoming update) are probably the focus on Primordus army and once we defeat the Destroyer Wyvern boss in Mission 5 then mission 6 happens with Jormag attacking. She may see that both the Commander/Pact/Alliance and Primordus have been weakened from their conflict just enough for Jormag to now consider taking them all out at once during their weakened state.

    I think you're on to something here, especially since Ryland's been described as an effective strategist. Would play into the theme Jormag has with deception too.

    Heck the fake Truce negotiations may have been Jormag's plan to set soldiers within major locations of each Kingdom where Destroyers have been sighted which could be the reason why the Son of Svanir got so close to Divinity's Reach. Trust was not needed to make this possible, only the threat of Destroyers and appearing as diplomats there to aid them against the Destroyers may have been enough for them to be allowed to get close to these locations. We should probably expect one of the upcoming missions in Part 3 to focus on the Frost Legion attack from within Rata Sum as well since Ryland already place agents within Rata Sum under the pretense of helping with protecting the City from Destroyers.

    If this is the case then Ryland may have been smart enough to sabotage key locations within Rata Sum. Worst case, Ryland's possible attack in Rata Sum may end up successful in killing alot of people and Taimi being among them considering how Taimi and many Asura are willing to let Ryland and his Frost Legion up close.

    Another thing I've been thinking about is exactly how much of Primordus' strength he's using right now. These little skirmishes that he's been sending are little more than vanguards and I'm not sure how we'd deal with the might of his entire army, even if Jormag roused all its forces. It's also possible that he's got destroyers far stronger than the ones he's made recently; according to the wiki, destroyers are corrupted versions of living creatures - so what if he has inactive destroyers that mimic powerful creatures from ages past like the giants?

  • EdwinLi.1284EdwinLi.1284 Member ✭✭✭
    edited January 15, 2021

    @Chaos.7614 said:

    @EdwinLi.1284 said:
    A important thing I think we need to consider is the order of the upcoming missions. Assuming there is maybe only 3 new missions, it is possible the first two focus on Primordus minions and the last one is when Jormag minions attack.

    If I have to guess Mission 1 to 5 (the first 3 missions we have now + first 2 missions of the upcoming update) are probably the focus on Primordus army and once we defeat the Destroyer Wyvern boss in Mission 5 then mission 6 happens with Jormag attacking. She may see that both the Commander/Pact/Alliance and Primordus have been weakened from their conflict just enough for Jormag to now consider taking them all out at once during their weakened state.

    I think you're on to something here, especially since Ryland's been described as an effective strategist. Would play into the theme Jormag has with deception too.

    Heck the fake Truce negotiations may have been Jormag's plan to set soldiers within major locations of each Kingdom where Destroyers have been sighted which could be the reason why the Son of Svanir got so close to Divinity's Reach. Trust was not needed to make this possible, only the threat of Destroyers and appearing as diplomats there to aid them against the Destroyers may have been enough for them to be allowed to get close to these locations. We should probably expect one of the upcoming missions in Part 3 to focus on the Frost Legion attack from within Rata Sum as well since Ryland already place agents within Rata Sum under the pretense of helping with protecting the City from Destroyers.

    If this is the case then Ryland may have been smart enough to sabotage key locations within Rata Sum. Worst case, Ryland's possible attack in Rata Sum may end up successful in killing alot of people and Taimi being among them considering how Taimi and many Asura are willing to let Ryland and his Frost Legion up close.

    Another thing I've been thinking about is exactly how much of Primordus' strength he's using right now. These little skirmishes that he's been sending are little more than vanguards and I'm not sure how we'd deal with the might of his entire army, even if Jormag roused all its forces. It's also possible that he's got destroyers far stronger than the ones he's made recently; according to the wiki, destroyers are corrupted versions of living creatures - so what if he has inactive destroyers that mimic powerful creatures from ages past like the giants?

    Vanguards or not, they appear to be attacking key locations to weaken the Commander's allies. Despite defending these locations, most likely the damage done by the time the fights are over is a critical state. Thus each location is now vulnerable for Jormag's forces to just walk right through since most of the forces that will normally defend these locations have been weakened by Primordus attacks.

    It has been rather curious why the forces with Ryland have normally only appear after the attacks or only himself is appearing in these locations when the Commander is the only one getting aid from his/her allies in these fights. I never buy the "I am strong enough to be a worth a army" talk he tends to give off.

  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 16, 2021

    @PseudoNewb.5468 said:
    Can the Son's of Svanir summon a cold blast that completely freezes the area and create free standing ice structures. All without at least the blessing of Jormag? The trailer shows Mantle's Breach and large parts of Lake Doric completely frozen over. Also Divinity's Reach defenses are active in the map too. Jormag seems to have begun assaulting the rest of Tyria bringing worse than Shiverpeaks weather down the mountains and across the region. Freezing Divinity's Reach is hostile regardless of how much Jormag says it wants to be nice.

    Sons of Svanir are well established as being capable of spreading Jormag's corruption without being corrupted themselves, and Jormag is well established as not caring who or what gets corrupted, even in IBS. For example, we see Sons of Svanir summon flash blizzards that freeze over individuals in Dredgehaunt Cliffs events. And it isn't like Jormag is the sole source of powerful ice magic, either, and such sources would interest the Sons of Svanir if for no other reason than to feed to Jormag.

    In addition, we have one historical elementalist capable of flash freezing a lake in the past, so it isn't unprecedented - this is the ice elementalist equivalent of a mesmer summoning an army of illusions or an illusion as large as a massive tower.

    Combine the fact Sons of Svanir can channel Jormag's magic without being corrupted (yet), with a powerful uncorrupted elementalist capable of flash freezing, and flash freezing a lake with Jormag's magic isn't out of the possibility.

    @Fueki.4753 said:

    @Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

    @Fueki.4753 said:
    The commander didn't smash Ryland to pieces as soon as possible.
    To me, that's far more than enough of an indicator that the commander is buying into Jormag's story.

    Not being a psychopath who just kills everything on sight doesn't mean your buying into anything.

    He's a non-Aurene Dragon Champion, thus a big danger to Tyria.
    Despite what Jormag says, it does not care for Tyria's safety.
    There is literally no benefit in allowing Ryland to continue existing, but too many possible detriments.
    The commander ought to know that.

    That is, Arenanet pulls something that unrealistically and unreasonably makes Jormag a good dragon, which would shatter the last remnants of cohesive story-telling. And in doing so, Arenanet would make a literal joke of the entire story.

    Ryland is an individual of free will with an unclear position. The Commander was getting a feel for Ryland, to see if he still had free will. This was unrelated to Jormag, and the fact Ryland has free will means he can be convinced to the proper side or isn't strictly an outright threat whereas an enslaved icebrood is just as Jormag is.

    The Commander isn't buying into Jormag's claims, but they're also not treating them as an imminent danger because as firmly established throughout Season 3 to Season 4, the world needs 4+ Elder Dragons to survive, and we don't have another replacement. The whole race has been to prevent Jormag's awakening, but now that it's happened we can't just go and bash the dragon and be done with it.

    Jormag wasn't antagonized yet and the Commander and friends were taking advantage of this to pull resources and information. Killing Ryland (especially without knowing how strong he's gotten - last two times the Commander did that, they died the first time, and got stuck in a spell the second time) would antagonize Jormag.

    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.

  • Teratus.2859Teratus.2859 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I've never seen it so much as Jormag want's to be our friend but more Jormag want's us to help it achieve it's own agenda.
    Jormag is a manipulator and a deceiver, it's just what it does and what it's best at doing.

    It knows we will never think of it as an ally or benevolent like Aurine yet it still spends it's time trying to get us "on it's side" and make us question whether we are doing the right thing.
    I think for the most part Jormag just wants us to stay out of it's way.. it doesn't want to fight Aurine but it does want to control her.. and we being Aurine's Champion grants us certain privileges in the sense that Jormag doesn't want us dead either.. for now at least.

    As it stands atm this whole fighting on 2 fronts thing is being more set up as our fault.. Primordus being the big bad and then the enemies of Primordus also fighting amongst themselves rather than working together.
    To the ignorant people of Tyria this could easily evolve into a problem for the commander, specially if Jormag attempts to convert more people by spreading propaganda around that it wants peace and to save the world and we are the evil ones getting in it's way and stopping it.

    This wouldn't be a new direction at all either.. we saw something similar with Balthazar returning and being a giant hole and people still followed him because he was a god.
    Then there was Joko and his brilliant speech before he was forcefully introduced to the bowels of a dragon.
    And lets not forget the fact that we have in the past spared the lives of Primordus, Jormag and Kralkatorrik from Balthazar who intended in killing them all.
    Add to that we are the champion of an Elder Dragon ourselves and there was that whole narrative that drove Bangar to do what he did.
    Jormag could very easily manipulate all of that information to turn people against us..

    Who knows, perhaps that's how we'll end up in Cantha after IBS.. Jormag turns Tyria against us and we either get exiled or are forced to flee..
    Unlikely I know lol but that was fun to think about.

  • Sajuuk Khar.1509Sajuuk Khar.1509 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 16, 2021

    @Teratus.2859 said:
    As it stands atm this whole fighting on 2 fronts thing is being more set up as our fault..

    I don't see this is in any way being set up as our fault. There's been no point so far where we got the blame for any of this. Bangar is the one with most of the blame, for letting his paranoia get to him, and go on the whole crusade to wake Jormag in the first place. Nor do I see a significant portion of Tyria buying into Jormag's attempts to sell that line when its clearly not helpful either.

    What I find more likely is that, from what we know based on how many mastery points were added to the game map, there are 10 DRMs.

    • Chapter 1 gave us 3 DRMs
    • Chapter 2 is giving us 4 DRMs
    • Chapter 3 will likley give us the last 3 DRMs
    • That leaves Chapter 4 without its own set of DRMs. I've heard that there have been updates to the map area around EoTN, which fits with the original IBS trailer which ended with a large army standing in front of a structure, presumably the Eye, with Jormag's forces marching on it.

    I find it more likely chapter 4 will invove some final showdown at the Eye, and either Primordus lives, and then moves down to Cantha to take out Bubbles, absorb its power, and become the Dragon of Dragons so to speak, or with Primordus and Jormag's deaths, and their energies rushing off to Aurene and Bubbles, we have to go down there to end it once and for all, with Aurene sensing a disturbance in the force as she did when Jormag woke.

    Primordus living and going down to Cantha would fit with the EoD logo, which, unlike all previous logos, shows two dragons. One underwater, and one above water. Primrodus and Bubbles? Jormag and Bubbles?

  • Teratus.2859Teratus.2859 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

    @Teratus.2859 said:
    As it stands atm this whole fighting on 2 fronts thing is being more set up as our fault..

    I don't see this is in any way being set up as our fault. There's been no point so far where we got the blame for any of this.

    Not to us players, but the the people of Tyria.
    It's easy for us to know Jormag bad.. but to others who have had the luxury of living normal lives and not being on the front lines of the dragon war it will be far less apparent.
    There could be plenty more like Bangar out there among the other races.. in fact realistically id say it's probably a certainty that there are plenty of people that would easily succumb to Jormag's manipulations as it spreads it's territory and influence.

    Among the Norn the Sons of Svanir.. among the Charr the Dominion forces.. I would bet heavily on there being a very strong possibility some Humans would be foolish enough to follow that same trend.. and we've already seen the Asura are willing to work with Jormag and the frost legion against Primordus as well.

    I don't think it would be that hard for Jormag to put the idea in peoples heads that Jormag is only our "enemy" because we keep going after it.
    That's what I mean when I said this is being set up as our fault.
    We had a choice to avoid fighting this way and we refused, so having to fight 2 dragons instead of just 1 is something we choose to do, ergo technically it is our fault.. even if it was the right thing to do.
    Jormag being Jormag and all.. lying with the truth is pretty much something it is especially proficient at.

    What I find more likely is that, from what we know based on how many mastery points were added to the game map, there are 10 DRMs.

    • Chapter 1 gave us 3 DRMs
    • Chapter 2 is giving us 4 DRMs
    • Chapter 3 will likley give us the last 3 DRMs
    • That leaves Chapter 4 without its own set of DRMs. I've heard that there have been updates to the map area around EoTN, which fits with the original IBS trailer which ended with a large army standing in front of a structure, presumably the Eye, with Jormag's forces marching on it.

    That structure isn't the eye of the north, it's actually old concept art of a norn lodge that has been around for years.. even before Gw2 came out if I recall correctly..
    It was one of the original Gw2 wallpapers that you could download and you can still find it near the bottom of the wallpaper section onf the official Gw2 website.
    https://www.guildwars2.com/en-gb/media/wallpapers/
    And the specific wallpaper itself.
    https://d3b4yo2b5lbfy.cloudfront.net/wp-content/uploads/wallpapers/GuildWars2_NornBonusWP01-1920x1200.jpg

    They must have reused this art for the trailer because as far as I can tell it looks identical.
    But I'm no developer so I can't tell you if there was a reason for reusing this specific artwork or whether it was to just save time or just because it looked cool.. but as many others have said in the past, these kinds of trailers are often featuring details that do not accurately represent the game (in that same trailer for example.. land spears and Jhavi using a shield as a Necro) so it's best not to take everything you see in them literally.

    I find it more likely chapter 4 will invove some final showdown at the Eye, and either Primordus lives, and then moves down to Cantha to take out Bubbles, absorb its power, and become the Dragon of Dragons so to speak, or with Primordus and Jormag's deaths, and their energies rushing off to Aurene and Bubbles, we have to go down there to end it once and for all, with Aurene sensing a disturbance in the force as she did when Jormag woke.

    I strongly expect there will be a showdown at the Eye as well but it's the aftermath of that fight that I am curious about.
    I do not want Primordus to be killed off this quickly, that much i've said a number of times now and I will be very disappointed if Anet take that road.
    That said while i'd accept it I don't want to see Jormag wiped out this quickly either and would much rather have the finale of End of Dragons become a massive 4 way battle between the last 4 Elder Dragons.

    That said, there are plenty of ways to theory craft how we get to Cantha but very little to solidify any of them with the canon of the game so far.

    Primordus living and going down to Cantha would fit with the EoD logo, which, unlike all previous logos, shows two dragons. One underwater, and one above water. Primrodus and Bubbles? Jormag and Bubbles?

    I'm glad you also feel the logo is relevant as well.
    Trailers have shown us much in the past but also mislead us a lot as well.. a prime example being the gigantic leviathan world boss teaser in the Manifesto trailer that never made it into the actual game (remedy that one day Anet please!!! lol)

    But logo's.. Gw2's logos have always been on point and featured an elder dragon that is related to or visually shows up in that expansion.
    Core Gw2's generic dragon.. I'd say it represents Zhaitan since he ended up being the first one we went after.
    HoT, Mordremoth.
    PoF, Kralkatorrik.
    And End of Dragons.. there are 2 in the logo, one of which is clearly a representation of the Sea dragon.

    I am agreed with you on this point, I am certain that End of Dragons will definitely feature multiple dragons and one of them will definitely be the sea dragon.
    What I am not certain on though is how we get from where we are in the story currently to fighting a completely different dragon in a foreign country miles to the south..
    That is a massive hole for speculation and leaves me pretty excited to see where the Ice Brood Saga takes us.

  • Sajuuk Khar.1509Sajuuk Khar.1509 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 17, 2021

    @Teratus.2859 said:
    Not to us players, but the the people of Tyria.

    I know, I was speaking about the people of Tyria. There has been nothing to suggest the common person in Tyria would have any reason to blame us for this, and with it coming out what Jormag has done in the far north(manipulating Bangar, the attacks on Jora's Keep, and Still Water Speaking), as well as his upcoming attacks on Lake Doric, and Snowden Drifts, there is even LESS reason for the common person to Tyria to feel that way. Especially with the whole theme of Champions being us getting the last even remotely major factions of Tyria together to help fight against Jormag and Primordus's forces.

    so it's best not to take everything you see in them literally.

    I wasn't. Obviously we never saw the Charr Homelands burning down, the Kodan putting their dead to sea, or centaurs with enslaved humans, but the overall progression of the trailer has matched up with that of the plot.

    • Scene 1 is the Charr Homelands = Grothmar Valley
    • Scene 2 is the Kodan putting their dead to rest = Bjora Marches
    • Scene 3 is centaurs with enslaved humans in a woodland area = Drizzlewood
    • Scenes 4, 5, and 6, are a sinking ship, Norn in a snowy area, and the standoff at the structure. Which are likely the DRMs, and the final standoff at the Eye. the sinking ship would be in Bloodtide, which we know will have a DRM due to the mastery point that showed up there, the snowy area is Snowden, for the same reason, and the standoff is the Eye.

    I do not want Primordus to be killed off this quickly, that much i've said a number of times now and I will be very disappointed if Anet take that road.

    I would find it odd as well given that he isn't even awake yet. He is only waking up as per Chapter 1 Truce.

    That said while i'd accept it I don't want to see Jormag wiped out this quickly either

    I don't think its been quickly for Jormag. Jormag has been manipulating events since Bound by Blood came out. By the time we reach the end of IBS it will be 18 months of Jormag plot. A year and a half, especially in MMO time, is forever. And we have pretty much already exploited all the big Jormag lore beats. Tooth prophecy, lost spirits, battle with Asgeir, Drakkar, etc. etc.

    What I am not certain on though is how we get from where we are in the story currently to fighting a completely different dragon in a foreign country miles to the south..

    Easy, with Jormag, and possibly Primordus, dead, the Deep Sea Dragon is the last of the original, evil, Elder Dragons left. Why wouldn't we take the initiative, and the momentum we have built up since forming the Pact back in core, to go off and kill the last Elder Dragon so we can end what has been nearly a decade of battle for this specific objective? There is no reason for us to not go there.

    Not to mention we have largely wrapped up all the major threats, and story beats, in Tyria and Elona

    • Kryta's war with the Centaurs? Done. Seraph pushed them back into their lands, and killed their war leader.
    • The Bandit/White Mantle infiltration? Done. The bandit leaders are dead, and the Mantle has collapsed.
    • The mystery behind the Sylvari's origins, and immunity to dragon corruption? Done. Covered in HoT.
    • The Pale Tree being injured? Done. Reforging Caladbolg put her back on the path to recovery.
    • The Nightmare Court? Largely done. There will be holdouts of any group like that, but the losses they took in core, LWS1, and HoT, would have pushed thier already few numbers into the tank.
    • Bangar being an idiot? Done. Charr civil war plot is ended.
    • The Flame Legion being evil? Done. Original leadership killed, and remnants brought back into Charr civilization with Efram at the head,
    • Branded problems in Charr lands? Done. Kralkatorrik is dead, Aurene is purifying the Brand, and the Charr are using thumper machines to force the last of the branded out from underground so they can be killed.
    • Charr/Human conflicts? Done. the treaty has been signed, and the major funders of both the Renegades, and the Separatists, have been killed.
    • Anything to do with the Norn? The Tooth Prophecy? The lost Spirits of the Wild? Asgeir's battle with Jormag? Drakkar/Jhavi getting revenge? Pretty much done, or in the process.
    • Elona issues? Forged have been mopped up. Joko is dead, and his empire collapsed. Sunspears have been restored. There is a new coalition government helping rebuild the region.

    Once IBS ends, the only systemic issues left in Tyria/Elona are the ghost problem in Ascalon, and the Inquest being up to no good. There really just isn't much left for us to do in Tyria right now. Even if there is no big story hook into it, there is no reason for us to not immediately go "lets go to Cantha and kill Bubbles to end this" to ride the momentum and finish the job we started back in core.

    I think needing a big story reason, like Jormag manipulating everyone into forcing us out, is over thinking a simple issue.

  • Teratus.2859Teratus.2859 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 17, 2021

    @Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

    @Teratus.2859 said:
    Not to us players, but the the people of Tyria.

    I know, I was speaking about the people of Tyria. There has been nothing to suggest the common person in Tyria would have any reason to blame us for this, and with it coming out what Jormag has done in the far north(manipulating Bangar, the attacks on Jora's Keep, and Still Water Speaking), as well as his upcoming attacks on Lake Doric, and Snowden Drifts, there is even LESS reason for the common person to Tyria to feel that way. Especially with the whole theme of Champions being us getting the last even remotely major factions of Tyria together to help fight against Jormag and Primordus's forces.

    That's the thing though, Bangar knew what he was doing.. he knew he was being manipulated and didn't care because he wanted the power Jormag was offering and he wanted to have his own Elder Dragon to defend his people against us.. and he constantly used us having an Elder Dragon as a call to arms for his Dominion.
    He just wasn't expecting Jormag to screw him over in the end in favour of a more devoted servant, much to our amusement as players :D

    So we've quite literally already seen this "people turning on us" thing happen among the Charr because of people like Bangar being under Jormag's influence.
    We've also seen the Asura in all their intelligence consider working with Jormag and the Frost legion because "Primordus is the bigger threat"
    And Human's.. well a good bunch of them decided to revive the White Mantle.. another bunch decided to follow Balthazar on a suicidal end of the world mission.
    I have no doubts what so ever that a human faction of Jormag followers would be extremely likely if Jormag was able to spread it's influence that far south.. which is what I suspect it is trying to do in the upcoming release.
    Jormag need only broadcast to Divinity's Reach it's messages of peace, protection and friendship and you'd see a bunch of foolish humans buy it, i'd put good money on that lol
    The Norn are the ones most likely to resist Jormag due to their history but many of them still fell in with the Son's, that's just how effective Jormag is at manipulating mortals.. and much as we saw in Champions Norn aka Braham's warnings fell on deaf ears with the Asura who are far far smarter than Humans and Norn.

    I do not want Primordus to be killed off this quickly, that much i've said a number of times now and I will be very disappointed if Anet take that road.

    I would find it odd as well given that he isn't even awake yet. He is only waking up as per Chapter 1 Truce.

    Many are predicting it.. and there's reason to suspect it may happen but god I hope it doesn't.
    Zhaitan got a campaign.
    Mordremoth got a season and an expansion.
    Kralkatorrik got a cameo in an expansion then a season with some of the most epic Elder Dragon moments in the game so far.
    Primordus has had nothing but a cameo in GW1 and a Cameo in season 3 and a few DRM's.. having him wake up and die within a few episodes would be a complete insult to what many fans believe is the biggest and baddest of all the Elder Dragons.

    That said while i'd accept it I don't want to see Jormag wiped out this quickly either

    I don't think its been quickly for Jormag. Jormag has been manipulating events since Bound by Blood came out. By the time we reach the end of IBS it will be 18 months of Jormag plot. A year and a half, especially in MMO time, is forever. And we have pretty much already exploited all the big Jormag lore beats. Tooth prophecy, lost spirits, battle with Asgeir, Drakkar, etc. etc.

    Yeah, hence why i'd accept it though i'd still rather Jormag stick around a little longer and have a few more awesome moments :)

    What I am not certain on though is how we get from where we are in the story currently to fighting a completely different dragon in a foreign country miles to the south..

    Easy, with Jormag, and possibly Primordus, dead, the Deep Sea Dragon is the last of the original, evil, Elder Dragons left. Why wouldn't we take the initiative, and the momentum we have built up since forming the Pact back in core, to go off and kill the last Elder Dragon so we can end what has been nearly a decade of battle for this specific objective? There is no reason for us to not go there.

    Because we don't know where it is and it hasn't been making a problem of itself outside of some minor incidents.
    Plus there's still the whole Killing Dragons dooms the world problem that has still not been addressed yet.
    There's a lot of blanks to fill in there to get us from A to B.

    Not to mention we have largely wrapped up all the major threats, and story beats, in Tyria and Elona

    • Kryta's war with the Centaurs? Done. Seraph pushed them back into their lands, and killed their war leader.

    Not quite done yet.. but they are demoralised and far less active now.

    • The Bandit/White Mantle infiltration? Done. The bandit leaders are dead, and the Mantle has collapsed.
    • The mystery behind the Sylvari's origins, and immunity to dragon corruption? Done. Covered in HoT.

    These two stories are done yes.

    • The Pale Tree being injured? Done. Reforging Caladbolg put her back on the path to recovery.

    She hasn't fully recovered yet though, we've not seen the Pale Tree in a long time.

    • The Nightmare Court? Largely done. There will be holdouts of any group like that, but the losses they took in core, LWS1, and HoT, would have pushed thier already few numbers into the tank.

    It's unknown how many losses they took, a lot of Nightmare Court resisted Mordremoth as well.
    Their biggest loss however was loosing Faolin which left them leaderless.. although a group like this you would expect to recover over time so while they are not a major threat now they could be again in the future.

    • Bangar being an idiot? Done. Charr civil war plot is ended.

    Sorta.. Bangar is a slave but his Dominion army is still active.. and under Jormag's control.
    So sure, the civil war is over but Jormag's invasion is yet to come.

    • The Flame Legion being evil? Done. Original leadership killed, and remnants brought back into Charr civilization with Efram at the head.

    Largely yes.. I expect there are still hold outs for the old ways though, i'm still not entirely sold on the idea of Flame Legion being the "good guys" now lol
    I expect a bunch fell in with Bangar which severely crippled them but a small handful of diehards went underground much like the Mantle did in Gw1 to regroup over time, I doubt we've seen the last of the bad Flame Legion yet, but we probably won't see them again for a long time either.. unless i'm right not to trust the ones claiming to be good now lol

    • Branded problems in Charr lands? Done. Kralkatorrik is dead, Aurene is purifying the Brand, and the Charr are using thumper machines to force the last of the branded out from underground so they can be killed.

    In Charr lands.. the brand stretches far and if I recall right the branded were often migrating southward to be closer to their master so I expect they will be lingering around in the more remote areas of the desert for a while, I don't think they've all been destroyed yet nor will be for a long time.
    Specially since we learned Kralkatorrik learned how to revive them in his last year of life.
    There's also the damage Kralk did in the mists, we've yet to see the major effects of that.

    • Charr/Human conflicts? Done. the treaty has been signed, and the major funders of both the Renegades, and the Separatists, have been killed.

    Yep this one is done, at best a few remnants left on the human side.. as we saw early in IBS Renegades were joining up with Bangar so these factions did still exist over the years.

    • Anything to do with the Norn? The Tooth Prophecy? The lost Spirits of the Wild? Asgeir's battle with Jormag? Drakkar/Jhavi getting revenge? Pretty much done, or in the process.
    • Elona issues? Forged have been mopped up. Joko is dead, and his empire collapsed. Sunspears have been restored. There is a new coalition government helping rebuild the region.

    These are largely done too I agree.

    Once IBS ends, the only systemic issues left in Tyria/Elona are the ghost problem in Ascalon, and the Inquest being up to no good. There really just isn't much left for us to do in Tyria right now. Even if there is no big story hook into it, there is no reason for us to not immediately go "lets go to Cantha and kill Bubbles to end this" to ride the momentum and finish the job we started back in core.

    I think needing a big story reason, like Jormag manipulating everyone into forcing us out, is over thinking a simple issue.

    But we don't know where the sea dragon is, it's not causing mainland Tyria any problems and hasn't been for a very long time.
    That need to go to Cantha is one of those missing pieces, we don't even know the sea dragon is there or anywhere near Cantha.
    Just having our characters say "lets see what Cantha is upto" would be a really poor way to take us there lol

    As I said too, we still don't have a solution for killing Elder Dragons yet without replacements and that could be a reason we do end up doing to Cantha to seek out Kuunavang but atm there appears to be nothing suggesting that will end up happening.. and if that's how we do end up solving the problem then it still leaves 2 dragons needing replacements.
    There is always the dreaded Aurine can replace them all option too but that would be such a cop out excuse in my and a lot of peoples opinions.. we really don't want to end up with another "hey we found mordremoths weakness at the last minute through sheer coincidence" moment lol

  • @Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

    • The Flame Legion being evil? Done. Original leadership killed, and remnants brought back into Charr civilization with Efram at the head,

    Gaheron did nothing wrong!!!

  • Sajuuk Khar.1509Sajuuk Khar.1509 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 17, 2021

    @Teratus.2859 said:
    That's the thing though, Bangar knew what he was doing.. he knew he was being manipulated

    Except he didn't. In fact, he explicitly says he believed he WASN'T being manipulated, but with how everything turned out, wonders if he was the whole time.

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Bangar_Ruinbringer#During_the_Confer_with_Bangar_achievement
    Player: You think Jormag always just meant to use you?
    Bangar: I don't know... You asked me before this, I would have said no chance. No one "mind-controls" Bangar Ruinbringer. But the way it played out... Was there an inflection point, a specific moment when...? If there was, I didn't know. I never felt for one second like my mind wasn't my own. But... I heard the whispers. Maybe that's all it takes.

    And Human's.. well a good bunch of them decided to revive the White Mantle

    They never revived the White Mantle. The Mantle was never gone, they just ran off into the jungle at the end of GW1, and largely stayed there beyond sneding agents to try to manipulate Kryta.

    Because we don't know where it is and it hasn't been making a problem of itself outside of some minor incidents.

    We know its down near Cantha

    Plus there's still the whole Killing Dragons dooms the world problem that has still not been addressed yet.

    That's not really been an issue in regards to possibly killing Jormag and Primordus.

    So sure, the civil war is over but Jormag's invasion is yet to come.

    Sure, but thats another plot entirely.

  • draxynnic.3719draxynnic.3719 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Teratus.2859 said:
    And Human's.. well a good bunch of them decided to revive the White Mantle.. another bunch decided to follow Balthazar on a suicidal end of the world mission.
    I have no doubts what so ever that a human faction of Jormag followers would be extremely likely if Jormag was able to spread it's influence that far south.. which is what I suspect it is trying to do in the upcoming release.
    Jormag need only broadcast to Divinity's Reach it's messages of peace, protection and friendship and you'd see a bunch of foolish humans buy it, i'd put good money on that lol

    I don't think this is quite the same situation, though. The White Mantle had an established insurrection that had been present since their overthrow in GW1, while Balthazar's priesthood was an established institution in Kryta and his living (as opposed to Forged) followers seemed to be fairly few even then. Bangar, similarly, was an established authority figure, and he presented his effort as controlling Jormag rather than serving him. Considering the level of persuasion Jormag has already been shown to do, I wouldn't rule it out, but I don't think the precedents suggest that Jormag is suddenly going to get a significant level of support from the human population. Heck, we might be seeing the first signs of trouble happening in Lake Doric specifically because those humans most susceptible to demagoguery have been weeded out and they refuse to cooperate.

    I'd also note, in the Dominion's case, there was mention that after what went down at the Frost Citadel, those Dominion who weren't already transformed started going "Hell no!" and surrendering.

    I will note, though, that I think a large part of the reason for going to Cantha will be to find more friendly dragons so that the burden of regulating magic isn't entirely on Aurene.

  • Teratus.2859Teratus.2859 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 17, 2021

    @Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

    @Teratus.2859 said:
    That's the thing though, Bangar knew what he was doing.. he knew he was being manipulated

    Except he didn't. In fact, he explicitly says he believed he WASN'T being manipulated, but with how everything turned out, wonders if he was the whole time.

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Bangar_Ruinbringer#During_the_Confer_with_Bangar_achievement
    Player: You think Jormag always just meant to use you?
    Bangar: I don't know... You asked me before this, I would have said no chance. No one "mind-controls" Bangar Ruinbringer. But the way it played out... Was there an inflection point, a specific moment when...? If there was, I didn't know. I never felt for one second like my mind wasn't my own. But... I heard the whispers. Maybe that's all it takes.

    I read it somewhere but I can't remember where exactly.. he knew that Jormag was saying what he wanted to hear or something like that.. he was aware of the attempts to manipulate him that's probably why he thought he wasn't being manipulated when he actually was.
    I can't recall where I saw that though, pretty sure it's in game dialogue or something but don't take my word for it.

    And Human's.. well a good bunch of them decided to revive the White Mantle

    They never revived the White Mantle. The Mantle was never gone, they just ran off into the jungle at the end of GW1, and largely stayed there beyond sneding agents to try to manipulate Kryta.

    Yes but they grew back into power, that's the point.
    They were able to recruit and manipulate people and successfully gain very high positions of power within human society.
    When Balthazar reappeared a great deal of his followers blindly followed him to war as well.
    Point is, whenever there is a power in the world that offers people what they view as a "good deal" or a "noble cause" there are always going to be those foolish enough to follow it no matter how many obvious red flags it sends up for everyone else.
    There's always people like that and you can bet if Jormag comes on down and starts "preaching" to humans it will seduce a good number of them with it's lies and promises.. Jormag would not be as dangerous as it is if it couldn't pull that off.

    Because we don't know where it is and it hasn't been making a problem of itself outside of some minor incidents.

    We know its down near Cantha

    Actually we don't, we know that it is somewhere in the ocean but not where it is exactly.
    This discussion has been had many times on the forums with various arguments but nothing official regarding the dragon's location has been confirmed yet.

    Plus there's still the whole Killing Dragons dooms the world problem that has still not been addressed yet.

    That's not really been an issue in regards to possibly killing Jormag and Primordus.

    It's something people bring up a lot in discussions though, atm killing them isn't really being discussed in game outside of Braham's destiny thing.. either he does or Jormag does.
    But a serious discussion about how to kill them and what will happen has yet to occur in game although Jormag has only recently awoke and prior to that our goal was't killing it, it was preventing it's awakening which we failed to do.
    So this is a discussion I expect our characters to have with Aurine in the near future when it's set in stone for our characters that we are going to be fighting both dragons to the death and there are no other options.

    @draxynnic.3719 said:

    @Teratus.2859 said:
    And Human's.. well a good bunch of them decided to revive the White Mantle.. another bunch decided to follow Balthazar on a suicidal end of the world mission.
    I have no doubts what so ever that a human faction of Jormag followers would be extremely likely if Jormag was able to spread it's influence that far south.. which is what I suspect it is trying to do in the upcoming release.
    Jormag need only broadcast to Divinity's Reach it's messages of peace, protection and friendship and you'd see a bunch of foolish humans buy it, i'd put good money on that lol

    I don't think this is quite the same situation, though. The White Mantle had an established insurrection that had been present since their overthrow in GW1, while Balthazar's priesthood was an established institution in Kryta and his living (as opposed to Forged) followers seemed to be fairly few even then. Bangar, similarly, was an established authority figure, and he presented his effort as controlling Jormag rather than serving him. Considering the level of persuasion Jormag has already been shown to do, I wouldn't rule it out, but I don't think the precedents suggest that Jormag is suddenly going to get a significant level of support from the human population. Heck, we might be seeing the first signs of trouble happening in Lake Doric specifically because those humans most susceptible to demagoguery have been weeded out and they refuse to cooperate.

    It's not the same no but it's human nature want to believe in something more powerful than them.
    If Aurine showed up in DR preaching protection and friendship people would listen and they would do the same if Jormag did it on the same grounds.
    Jormag could have attacked and wiped us out.. but instead offered us peace and friendship, maybe it's not so bad after all and we were wrong about it... there's always people who think that way and succumb to the manipulation of malevolent forces.

    I'd also note, in the Dominion's case, there was mention that after what went down at the Frost Citadel, those Dominion who weren't already transformed started going "Hell no!" and surrendering.

    Some of them got that kick in the tail they needed lol
    But there were those who still choose to become corrupted, it's much like the flame legion in the past as well, you always get those kinds of people, fanatics and zealots for a cause they believe in.

    I will note, though, that I think a large part of the reason for going to Cantha will be to find more friendly dragons so that the burden of regulating magic isn't entirely on Aurene.

    Yeah this is a popular prediction that I also find likely as well.
    Guess we just have to wait and see, atm there isn't anything solid to go on but hopefully that will change soon.

  • Fenella.2634Fenella.2634 Member ✭✭✭

    @Teratus.2859 said:

    @Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

    • The Nightmare Court? Largely done. There will be holdouts of any group like that, but the losses they took in core, LWS1, and HoT, would have pushed thier already few numbers into the tank.

    It's unknown how many losses they took, a lot of Nightmare Court resisted Mordremoth as well.
    Their biggest loss however was loosing Faolin which left them leaderless.. although a group like this you would expect to recover over time so while they are not a major threat now they could be again in the future.

    Not quite. They have a new leader, she is there after the DS meta and has a bit of dialog. Doesn't appear to be overly antagonistic. The new Nightmare Court could develop into some sort of allied faction, if needed.

  • Teratus.2859Teratus.2859 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 17, 2021

    @Fenella.2634 said:

    @Teratus.2859 said:

    @Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

    • The Nightmare Court? Largely done. There will be holdouts of any group like that, but the losses they took in core, LWS1, and HoT, would have pushed thier already few numbers into the tank.

    It's unknown how many losses they took, a lot of Nightmare Court resisted Mordremoth as well.
    Their biggest loss however was loosing Faolin which left them leaderless.. although a group like this you would expect to recover over time so while they are not a major threat now they could be again in the future.

    Not quite. They have a new leader, she is there after the DS meta and has a bit of dialog. Doesn't appear to be overly antagonistic. The new Nightmare Court could develop into some sort of allied faction, if needed.

    I don't remember that.

    edit:
    You're referring to Duchess Chrysanthea right?
    She's not technically the leader, or wasn't back then at least.
    She may have arisen to the role since HoT but we can't know that until there's new story or news involving the Court.

    She maybe the last Duchess of the court left though.. don't know for sure.
    But the leader of the court is known by the Grand Duchess title.. or for males I would assume Grand Duke..

  • EdwinLi.1284EdwinLi.1284 Member ✭✭✭
    edited January 17, 2021

    Honestly, the removal of the Nightmare Court Story part of Heart of Thorns really put a "thorn" into the Nightmare Court side of the storyline.

    It is something that is really needed to be covered considering how much the Final Boss Meta implied about the Nightmare Court's fate because of Mordremoth's actions. Not to mention the removed 4th Path for the meta that was going to be tied to the Nightmare Court side of the Story for Heart of Thorns.

    Now we hardly hear anything about the Nightmare Court and their current status in current storyline even for small mentions.

    It really leaves a feel they rushed and skipped the Nightmare Court story in Heart of Thorns so they can hastily remove the Nightmare Court from future storylines after Heart of Thorns which currently does appear that way.

  • EdwinLi.1284EdwinLi.1284 Member ✭✭✭
    edited January 19, 2021

    Ok so story released now and we have 4 missions this time.

    2 Primodus and 2 Jormag

    Well it was expect that Jormag will start acting up and now we know the reason for both sides.

    Primordus seeks to destroy everything and the more of the world that is destroyed the stronger he becomes.

    Jormag seeks to freeze everything and the more of the world that is frozen the stronger she becomes.

    Ryland is only going along with this because he still believes Jormag will make him the new Jesus Christs of the new world she seeks to create once she is the only Elder Dragon alive. Of course that obviously will never happen since that will require the world to become warm enough for these people frozen to be free which will never happen in Jormag's new world where everything is frozen in Ice.

    Also it is a bit sad Owl is now dead. I was hoping to see more of her but guess death is a better fate than being corrupted to a Elder Dragon.

  • Yasai.3549Yasai.3549 Member ✭✭✭✭

    All I gotta say is the plot of Champions so far is just a whole show of "seriousness" with no depth underneath.

    GO TO HERE! FIGHTING! DANGER!
    GO TO THERE! FIGHTING! STRESSFUL!
    GO TO HERE! FIGHTING! CONFUSION!
    GO TO THERE! FIGHTING! SURPRISE PLOT TWIST (which isn't a surprise at all)

    Meanwhile Aurene : Dur, I can't take action. Balance. Blah blah blah.
    Meanwhile Jormag : turns some villages into an Ice cream truck I'm good guys, I swear
    Meanwhile Primordus : rawr burn rawr death and destruction
    Meanwhile Braham : WAAAAAAA WAAAAAA IM CONFUSED, WHO AM I, WHAT AM I, WAAAAA OWL DEAD

    If I play a stupid build, I deserve to die.
    If I beat people on a stupid build, I deserve to get away with it.

  • draxynnic.3719draxynnic.3719 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Personally, what really disappointed me is that the second 'Confer with Aurene' got interrupted, and the Commander apparently didn't think that people getting frozen in carbonite Jormagicite was worth going back to Aurene over.

  • EdwinLi.1284EdwinLi.1284 Member ✭✭✭
    edited January 20, 2021

    @Yasai.3549 said:
    All I gotta say is the plot of Champions so far is just a whole show of "seriousness" with no depth underneath.

    GO TO HERE! FIGHTING! DANGER!
    GO TO THERE! FIGHTING! STRESSFUL!
    GO TO HERE! FIGHTING! CONFUSION!
    GO TO THERE! FIGHTING! SURPRISE PLOT TWIST (which isn't a surprise at all)

    Meanwhile Aurene : Dur, I can't take action. Balance. Blah blah blah.
    Meanwhile Jormag : turns some villages into an Ice cream truck I'm good guys, I swear
    Meanwhile Primordus : rawr burn rawr death and destruction
    Meanwhile Braham : WAAAAAAA WAAAAAA IM CONFUSED, WHO AM I, WHAT AM I, WAAAAA OWL DEAD

    Well the whole "I am a good guy" talk is not wrong. Jormag naturally believes she is doing the right thing by freezing the entire world to preserve and protect the world.

    In Jormag's eyes, her ideal world where everything is forever trapped in eternal stagnated state due to being frozen forever is a better world. No one can be harmed by change and be harmed by others because they are forever frozen in Ice. It is a type of twisted idea that Jormag has of being a Benevolent Dictator where everyone gets what they want but in return they must always provide everything she always wants in a land that will forever be frozen in time.

    @draxynnic.3719 said:
    Personally, what really disappointed me is that the second 'Confer with Aurene' got interrupted, and the Commander apparently didn't think that people getting frozen in carbonite Jormagicite was worth going back to Aurene over.

    I blame how they must cut up this last episode of Icebrood saga into 4 parts. It can leave a lot of inconsistency due to X or Y part not fully explored until a certain future mission is released. We technically are not missing much time between the wait lorewise as these Champion missions are intended to happen right after each other.

    Though, the mission setup now does feel like the GW1 style of handling story missions with the addition players can choose free join for their story mission

  • Yasai.3549Yasai.3549 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 20, 2021

    @EdwinLi.1284 said:
    Well the whole "I am a good guy" talk is not wrong. Jormag naturally believes she is doing the right thing by freezing the entire world to preserve and protect the world.

    That's the thing.... I wish they had put that across in a better way.
    Jormag went from "hey, we friends, we talk now, we share info, we work together" to "I'm chit chat with Aurene, and er, thanks for the info guys ima go do my.... stuff now"

    Did Jormag JUST come up with this idea of turning the world into a fridge?
    Why not just act on it in the first place? It's not like they needed an alliance to go around turning things into popsicles.
    Doubt they needed to consult the Asuras on who or where to freeze over, Jormag could have just frozen over whatever they reached.

    It's just a whole jumbled mess, trying to bring some humanity to Jormag by wanting alliance, but then deciding to "lol nvm, everyone's a popsicle now"
    I've mentioned it before : the entire Ice Brood Saga is just a convulated mess of trying to make a "deep intriguing storyline" but ended up just digging holes everywhere with no plan.

    If I play a stupid build, I deserve to die.
    If I beat people on a stupid build, I deserve to get away with it.

  • EdwinLi.1284EdwinLi.1284 Member ✭✭✭
    edited January 20, 2021

    @Yasai.3549 said:

    @EdwinLi.1284 said:
    Well the whole "I am a good guy" talk is not wrong. Jormag naturally believes she is doing the right thing by freezing the entire world to preserve and protect the world.

    That's the thing.... I wish they had put that across in a better way.
    Jormag went from "hey, we friends, we talk now, we share info, we work together" to "I'm chit chat with Aurene, and er, thanks for the info guys ima go do my.... stuff now"

    Did Jormag JUST come up with this idea of turning the world into a fridge?
    Why not just act on it in the first place? It's not like they needed an alliance to go around turning things into popsicles.
    Doubt they needed to consult the Asuras on who or where to freeze over, Jormag could have just frozen over whatever they reached.

    It's just a whole jumbled mess, trying to bring some humanity to Jormag by wanting alliance, but then deciding to "lol nvm, everyone's a popsicle now"
    I've mentioned it before : the entire Ice Brood Saga is just a convulated mess of trying to make a "deep intriguing storyline" but ended up just digging holes everywhere with no plan.

    I will not say no plot because this is a plot but it is rather rushed as there is obvious moments that will require probably a good 3 to 4 Story moments to explore these areas between the Story Missions.

    As for Jormag, the Benevolent Dictator personality of Jormag has been her personality for a long time as the Icebroods have presented her that way since the beginning of GW2 as a Elder Dragon that will always give those who serve her what they want in return they give her what she wants. Also Jormags needs to do is whisper and talk to these people into believing what she provides is what they want. While it was not presented properly due to how the Champion Episode is split into such small pieces and does appear rushed in certain areas, Jormag is all about appearing benevolent and having people willingly join her instead of forcing them to join her. They have not changed anything about Jormag's method of trying to corrupt people being to always attempt to have people willingly accept becoming her minion through promises of getting what they want and desire.

    With Aurene being young, Jormag thought she could persuade Aurene to join her though the idea of being a Benevolent Ruler and sharing that rule as equals while reminding Aurene that she is lacking life experience and Aurene should follow her suggestions because she is older and has more experience due to living long. At this point it is obvious Jormag has given up on trying since Aurene refuse to be persuaded by her words. It is not deep as it should be if it was running on a normal planned schedule but it does follow up on past knowledge about how Jormag handle things when it comes to attempting to corrupt beings and how she acts when she considers her attempt to corrupt people a failure.

    As draxynnic said, Jormag is that one person in a abusive relationship but in this case it is like a abusive adult, or should I say abusive Aunt, to someone they consider a child.

    They always act nice and give a certain attention to the child with making them feel comfort as long they get what they want from the child but if they don't get what they want despite the child behaving and done nothing wrong they get very violent.

    At this point we are past the giving the feeling of comfort and acting nice since Aurene refuse to give Jormag what she wants. Now it has become the violent stage of that abusive relationship thing of the family.

  • radda.8920radda.8920 Member ✭✭✭

    absolutely no one is talking about the massacre of the dwarves?
    They come back with hardly a single line of dialogue
    For a Guild Wars 1 player like me ,it's really hard to see, a shame.I imagined so much better for them with underground maps ..

  • EdwinLi.1284EdwinLi.1284 Member ✭✭✭
    edited January 20, 2021

    @radda.8920 said:
    absolutely no one is talking about the massacre of the dwarves?
    They come back with hardly a single line of dialogue
    For a Guild Wars 1 player like me ,it's really hard to see, a shame.I imagined so much better for them with underground maps ..

    One of many thing rushed in Champions sadly.

    We should expect Champion story to be in this state since this single episode split into 4 parts is meant to be the one episode that leads into End of Dragons. It originally may have been long as all other epsiodes if released as a normal episode of Icebrood Saga.

    The current state of our own world may have also contributed to this state due to restrictions placed on businesses.

  • Sajuuk Khar.1509Sajuuk Khar.1509 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 20, 2021

    @Yasai.3549 said:
    Did Jormag JUST come up with this idea of turning the world into a fridge?
    Why not just act on it in the first place? It's not like they needed an alliance to go around turning things into popsicles.
    Doubt they needed to consult the Asuras on who or where to freeze over, Jormag could have just frozen over whatever they reached.

    Yes, they explain this in the dialog of Asuran Counsel instance, and the Lake Doric DRM.

    Ryland was in the meeting with the Asura where they told him that Primrodus has a feedback loop with his minions, where the more the burn, the stronger he gets, and the more they burn. Ryland is like "hmm, I'm gonna go try something" and leaves. Then we get the Lake Doric DRM, and at the end Ryland reveals this is what he was leaving to do, to see if the same worked for Jormag.

    @EdwinLi.1284 said:
    As for Jormag, the Benevolent Dictator personality of Jormag has been her personality for a long time as the Icebroods have presented her that way since the beginning of GW2 as a Elder Dragon that will always give those who serve her what they want in return they give her what she wants. Also Jormags needs to do is whisper and talk to these people into believing what she provides is what they want. While it was not presented properly due to how the Champion Episode is split into such small pieces and does appear rushed in certain areas, Jormag is all about appearing benevolent and having people willingly join her instead of forcing them to join her. They have not changed anything about Jormag's method of trying to corrupt people being to always attempt to have people willingly accept becoming her minion through promises of getting what they want and desire.

    Except they HAVE presented this properly since the saga began, with Jormag's manipulation of Bangar, and Bangar's self admittance that he never felt like he was being mind controlled. Not to mention all the Whisper stuff in Bjora where this concept was further talked about. Champions didn't just introduce this idea, nor doesit particularly need to present it. Its been established for months now via numerous dialog.

  • Fenella.2634Fenella.2634 Member ✭✭✭

    @Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

    @Yasai.3549 said:
    Did Jormag JUST come up with this idea of turning the world into a fridge?
    Why not just act on it in the first place? It's not like they needed an alliance to go around turning things into popsicles.
    Doubt they needed to consult the Asuras on who or where to freeze over, Jormag could have just frozen over whatever they reached.

    Yes, they explain this in the dialog of Asuran Counsel instance, and the Lake Doric DRM.

    Ryland was in the meeting with the Asura where they told him that Primrodus has a feedback loop with his minions, where the more the burn, the stronger he gets, and the more they burn.

    This part was weird, anyway. Doesn't that make them a Perpetuum mobile? Something seems to be wrong there.

  • Sajuuk Khar.1509Sajuuk Khar.1509 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Fenella.2634 said:
    Also it is a bit sad Owl is now dead. I was hoping to see more of her but guess death is a better fate than being corrupted to a Elder Dragon.

    Don't forget Owl's cryptic comment about the Spirit's being able to guide the fall.

    @Fenella.2634 said:
    This part was weird, anyway. Doesn't that make them a Perpetuum mobile? Something seems to be wrong there.

    Not weird to me. Dragon of fire gets more powerful the more fire there is, and if it makes more fire then yeah, its going to get stronger from that.

  • Fenella.2634Fenella.2634 Member ✭✭✭

    @Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

    @Fenella.2634 said:
    This part was weird, anyway. Doesn't that make them a Perpetuum mobile? Something seems to be wrong there.

    Not weird to me. Dragon of fire gets more powerful the more fire there is, and if it makes more fire then yeah, its going to get stronger from that.

    Physics, though? I know, Tyria has magic, but still, even an Elder Dragon shouldn't be able to practically infinitely grow its own magic from basically nothing. Fire has to have something to burn, otherwise it should go down at some point.

  • @Svennis.3852 said:
    An accelerated story is to be expected, but I did not anticipate Jormag becoming hostile toward us this soon. I figured the ruse of a 'truce' would be drawn out till chapter 3 or 4, but I suppose we don't have that kind of time.

    I think you and others misinterpret what Jormag is still doing. Jormag still hasn't lied nor become "hostile." Its basically white lies. I'm here to protect you and this world! (which is true but now we know this means covering people and the world in ice forever.) Ryland has told us that they havn't actually killed anyone just preserving them. Sure, icrbrood are attacking TO preserve us in ice and when you are attacked you defend yourself (even mobs). Its basically a calculated step on their part to undermine our efforts to stop Jormag and now we really are caught between the two.

  • @EdwinLi.1284 said:
    As for Jormag, the Benevolent Dictator personality of Jormag has been her personality for a long time as the Icebroods have presented her that way since the beginning of GW2 as a Elder Dragon that will always give those who serve her what they want in return they give her what she wants. Also Jormags needs to do is whisper and talk to these people into believing what she provides is what they want. While it was not presented properly due to how the Champion Episode is split into such small pieces and does appear rushed in certain areas, Jormag is all about appearing benevolent and having people willingly join her instead of forcing them to join her. They have not changed anything about Jormag's method of trying to corrupt people being to always attempt to have people willingly accept becoming her minion through promises of getting what they want and desire.

    Except they HAVE presented this properly since the saga began, with Jormag's manipulation of Bangar, and Bangar's self admittance that he never felt like he was being mind controlled. Not to mention all the Whisper stuff in Bjora where this concept was further talked about. Champions didn't just introduce this idea, nor doesit particularly need to present it. Its been established for months now via numerous dialog.

    She's the icedragon of mental abuse and gaslighting and we played right into it.

  • I'm sad Owl got...extinguished. After her own exile and then we did the Owl collection and then Ryland goes and messes it all up. So unfortunate ;(