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Thoughts on DRMs?

Mortifera.6138Mortifera.6138 Member ✭✭✭
edited January 13, 2021 in Guild Wars 2 Discussion

So DRMs are continuing in the new Champions episode... am I the only one who doesn’t like them? I want eSports (Strikes and Raids), not another mini-game. Sigh.

Comments

  • Mortifera.6138Mortifera.6138 Member ✭✭✭

    @Yggranya.5201 said:
    Another question thread, eh? Well, esport can rot along with PvP and the rest as far as i'm cocerned. I don't know what DRM is, but it can't possibly be worse than this pinnacle of competitivity which brings out the worst in people every time.

    DRM = Dragon Response Missions.

  • Obtena.7952Obtena.7952 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Strikes and raids are eSports? well anyways ....

    Again, DRM has an implementation issue. Some badly made decisions about rewards, etc ... as far as I'm concerned

    If you're on a highway and roadrunner goes "beep beep"
    Just step aside or you might end up in a heap

  • Mortifera.6138Mortifera.6138 Member ✭✭✭

    @Noah Salazar.5430 said:
    DRM are fine and even fun to do, but because of low rewards that content is usualy skipped by most community.
    More Intesting rewards culd change that

    That’s everything in GW2, f2p and all.

  • BlueJin.4127BlueJin.4127 Member ✭✭✭
    edited January 13, 2021

    People hate DRM’s.

    Oh, wait... you’re talking about Dragon Response Missions. OK, let’s try this again.

    People hate DRM’s.

    /bad joke

    Get it? :p

  • Danikat.8537Danikat.8537 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I thought eSports was PvP? (Specifically streaming PvP tournaments.)

    I like the DRMs, although I've only done the public version without CMs so I'm not sure how different that is. They remind me of Season 1 content, but without the downside that if you don't do them right away they're gone forever and you've missed out. I've done all of the existing ones multiple times (enough to get all the rewards and a bunch of extra support marks or whatever they're called) and I expect I'll do the new ones multiple times too.

    But no one's going to like everything in GW2 and there's no need to because there's plenty of other stuff available. If you prefer stikes and raids then the good news is they haven't gone anywhere so you can keep on playing them instead. :)

    Danielle Aurorel, Desolation EU. Mini Collector

    "Life's a journey, not a destination."

  • sniperman.1738sniperman.1738 Member ✭✭✭

    @Konrad Curze.5130 said:

    @Mortifera.6138 said:
    So DRMs are continuing in the new Champions episode

    of course they are. we'r in the age of absolutly minimum effort on ANet's part

    I wouldn't say Minimum effort, remember they are trying to finish up a living story while working on an expansion.

    ~Find your destiny.

  • aspirine.6852aspirine.6852 Member ✭✭✭✭

    They could make the drm's a bit shorter.. We have enough health sponges in the game. One of the reasons I dont do them anymore is that the fight with the destroyer just takes too long to be any kind of fun.

  • Tazer.2157Tazer.2157 Member ✭✭✭

    The DRM that we got are basically single player experiences and it is not very exciting to play them as a group because of their linear progression. DRMs can be designed to be group content where players split up to obtain various objectives then culminating in a final boss. This would actually make them re-playable and fun.

  • Shadowmoon.7986Shadowmoon.7986 Member ✭✭✭✭

    The problem with drms are the reward system. Something as small as adding account bound volcanic weapons to the vendor for 300 to 150 tokens each would add a reason to do them. Currently doing the cms are pointless because their rewards are awful, and you get the same amount of prismitite ore no matter now many cms there are.
    Compare dmrs reward system to strikes or raids. Even though getting enough prophet crystals to get the full runic set would takes about a month or two, every strike got you progressively closer to finishing the set. Same could be said about raid rewards, if you really wanted a dhumm chair, every successful raid clear got you a few tokens closer to completion. The lucky drops in both cases were time saver, not the intended way to earn the skins.

  • Solanum.6983Solanum.6983 Member ✭✭✭

    I think they were good in the Story instances even if a little repetitive.

    What I don't like is taking those story instances and trying to turn them into repeatable content. They boil down to being a Heart Vendor to Escort to Uninteresting HP sponge boss fight that take way too long and give little to no rewards.

  • Greg.7086Greg.7086 Member ✭✭✭

    @Mortifera.6138 said:
    So DRMs are continuing in the new Champions episode... am I the only one who doesn’t like them? I want eSports (Strikes and Raids), not another mini-game. Sigh.

    Not a fan of the DRM's either: Ran the first 3, well 2.5 actually, last patch day and to be honest I just see them as " Recycled filler content implemented on a shoe-string budget": Old maps upcycled or downcylced idk with old mobs, no exciting mechanics well as exciting as watching "paint-dry": The 3rd DRM with my group we were so utterly bored with it we quit it there and then, so the longevity of the last exciting episode lasted less than 30-40 mins for us and have we never returned since. DRM's would probably more acceptable in starter maps as an entry level instance prior to Strikes. My 5 year old niece likes them though.

    Personally I feel Devs are devoting all their time to 3rd Xpac, Legendary Armoury, Alliances? perhaps by 2025, Steam release already on the "back-burner" but likely to be relaunched some time in 2021 and that's about all they can manage at present with the resources they have. These new Saga/Chapters/Episodes to me are just " budget filler content inbetween the Festivals" to keep players bemused thinking they are getting frequent updates still, but really there is no actual filler in them. I actually look forward far more to our Annual Festivals and the servers seem a lot busier player wise during Festivals than any of this Recycled old content. Roll on Lunar New Year & Season Adventure Box.

  • AliamRationem.5172AliamRationem.5172 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @sniperman.1738 said:

    @Konrad Curze.5130 said:

    @Mortifera.6138 said:
    So DRMs are continuing in the new Champions episode

    of course they are. we'r in the age of absolutly minimum effort on ANet's part

    I wouldn't say Minimum effort, remember they are trying to finish up a living story while working on an expansion.

    I love GW2, but the decision not to invest in its future by working on an expansion to follow PoF was disastrous. They've since corrected course, but all that time was wasted and now they are playing catch up, causing current content releases to suffer. I'm glad they're working on EoD, but DRMs as a means of advancing the story are indeed low-effort and not at all satisfying.

  • lokh.2695lokh.2695 Member ✭✭✭✭

    DRM's are ok as part of the story, grinding them out for achievements is immensly boring as they are not challenging at all. If it wasn'tfor the AP, I wouldn't do them more thanonce per chr that does the story.
    (I know this first batch was ok when it comes to grindy achis, but I'm counting on a "do each DRM 100 times" achi at some point, given my experience with the "saga" so far)

    Why bother, just delete the official Forum.

  • Hypnowulf.7403Hypnowulf.7403 Member ✭✭✭

    The thing to consider... is that this isn't the only content that ArenaNet is working on right now. Indeed, they're also chipping away at the Canthan expansion. This was—quite unfortunate as it is—an executive mandate from NCSoft. ArenaNet wanted to continue with sagas from this point onward, which I believe might have been the right choice, but the bigwigs at NCSoft are all about their bottom-line as a publically traded corporation so an expansion was foisted upon ArenaNet without aught in the way of warning.

    Thus, they have limited resources at hand. It isn't their fault that they find themselves in this position. Just as it isn't their fault Apple made continuing development on Mac platforms impossible. There are just a number of undesirable factors in confluence right now and they've no power to decide elsewise.

    I'm not pleased about what's happened as I believe that the Cantha expansion could've happened at a much later date, I worry about crunch. I don't blame ArenaNet, though. I mean, this is what capitalism does for better and worse.

    I am impressed, however, by what they've managed to achieve as I quite enjoyed the DRMs. Then again, my drive is for story, I don't find ephemeral numericals or "cheevos" as compelling as I reailse many do, so perhaps the ward system requires tweaking as they say. I wouldn't know. I do, however, agree that the bosses are a touch spongy. As a narrative experience to be taken as part of the greater whole of this Saga? I enjoy them. It was nice to see Taimi again and—shameless Icebrood cheerleader and Jormie proselytiser that I am—I was very excited to romp around alongside Ry-Ry. I might just be easy to please, especially where this storyline is concerned.

    This, of course, brings us to the pricklier part of this assembly's proceedings: The obvious disenfranchisement of the hardcore.

    I have discussed this topic at length. Raiding is a dopamine addiction, there's no end-point. I mean, it isn't just the drive for more difficult content because if it were, then one would chase the inverse-meta. One could equip sub-par items and utilise a strange, suboptimal build. This is about rewards and how they must be earned—if a reward is earned, it results in the dopamine hit that raiders simply need. However, this increases their power potential which means that future content must be more difficult. It's a never-ending cycle of difficulty vs. reward, and the further you strive down that sordid path, the less accessible to casual players your product becomes.

    So here's the problem: Casuals are money, hardcore players are not. In the hardcore mindset, the need for reward dictates that ArenaNet should be doing all they can to sate that desire for the raider's "hard work." There is little concept of recompense that I have borne witness to in raid culture. What this means is that any product that isn't that one (World of Warcraft, yes) is doomed to bankruptcy. See: WildStar.

    It's a matter of logistics. You have to consider the number of hardcore players (very few compared to other demographics), the cost of producing content entirely for them, and the profitability of that demographic. Unlike casuals, hardcore players are not money.

    This is especially true in Guild Wars 2 where you know as well as I do that you can convert gold to gems—and who has the most gold? Raiders, the hardcore players. If you can convert gold to gems, you have no need to buy gems, and in conversing with any of the raiders I've met? They don't buy gems! Why would they? They can convert their excess masses of gold so why bother? ArenaNet has actually created a scenario in which hardcore players are even less profitable than they would be in other scenarios.

    On the flipside? Casual players are money, as stated. We spend a lot of actual money on gems. ArenaNet needs actual money, not gold. I don't mean to be especially sardonic and patronising here (only a little) but NCSoft isn't interested in an ephemeral numerical. They care naught for however much gold you might have, their concern is only for filthy lucre, real world money to sate the ravenous hunger of their shareholders. If you've chosen to not be a source of this lucre, your words have no weight.

    So this is a two-pronged issue: It's expensive to develop content for only one audience at the expense of all others, and that audience is the least profitable audience of all. That's why they've been throwing bones at best, it's why they're reusing content. You simply aren't profitable. You don't buy gems and what you want is unattainable.

    Look at it this way: When you get to the point where ArenaNet can no longer deliver unto you that juicy, delectable, cajunga dopamine hit that you so desperately need, you'll all leave Guild Wars 2 in droves. This is what raiders do. They'll turn up at some game's doorstep as a minuscule yet ceaselessly chirruping mob, and they'll have unreasonable demands. I've seen it before so many times. Yes, trying to force any developer down this path—a path to bankruptcy—is unreasonable.

    So you're not profitable and eventually you'll all leave anyway. NCSoft is a corporation interested in their bottom-line. Where's the profit to be made from appealing to you as a potential audience? Where's the money? The not-gold money?

    Raid culture is its own self-fulfilling prophecy of doom. The problem is is that like gambling, operant conditioning chambers are addictions. If you really want an MMO to appeal to you above all else? Here's what you have to do: First of all, learn to temper yourself so that your addiction doesn't rule and ruin you. In order for this to be in any way sustainable, you have to be willing to accept a decreased dopamine flow. Next, remind yourselves that you're customers partaking of a product. You have to be profitable. If you're not? You won't get anywhere.

    This is something I've explained countless times. The most profitable group is casual players who play in groups of 1-3, 3 as the upper-limit. 1-2 will be even more common an amount. This is why the content is focused around appealing to them, whereas other demographics get table scraps. Blame capitalism if you want, I mean that is fair. That's a good start as you could try to fashion your own product. If you do, though, be sure to teach these lessons to your customers or you'll end up just as bankrupt.

    You have to meter yourselves and you have to be profitable. It might make you angry but that's the reality we live in. This is why MMOs have failed so often. Only the original—World of Warcraft—stands as an appeal to the hardcore raider. Every other MMO that has managed to survive caters to a more casual audience.

    I mean, it makes sense. It's why outfits and mounts are sold rather than gated behind content one has to grind for—it's also why they're the best looking in the game. Casuals are money. If they weren't, content for other demographics would be the focus.

    @Tazer.2157 said:
    DRMs can be designed to be group content [...]

    This is a very bad idea. The core profitable demographic doesn't enjoy forced grouping, that's a raid thing. In doing this, ArenaNet would alienate their paying customers. I mean, you have to realise that. This is why they don't do it.

    You could say that they could develop a system where players could replace NPCs, and certainly, they could do that! However, that costs development time and money (and time is also money!). The truth of the matter is, as I explained above, the raider demo isn't really a profitable one. In order for them to take their very limited resources away from developing other content, it would have to be towards a profitable goal.

    They might do this in Cantha as it would be a less expensive way to keep their raider audience around. They can develop single-player content where AI characters hold the other roles, and then multiplayer content where players step into the bodies of other characters. That's something they might do, but you can't count on it.

    You always have to consider the looming monolith of NCSoft. If ArenaNet does anything that really displeases them, it could mean a reshuffle and lost jobs or even the closure of their studio and the sunsetting of Guild Wars 2.

    If you want that to change—as I've said—be profitable and be patient! If the data shows that your demographic is profitable, that's something ArenaNet can show. As it stands, there are only table scraps because there are voices at ArenaNet that do enjoy more hardcore content—just as you do—but it's a bad idea to make too much of it when it doesn't increase the value of ArenaNet or Guild Wars 2.

  • Zaraki.5784Zaraki.5784 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 13, 2021

    @sniperman.1738 said:

    @Konrad Curze.5130 said:

    @Mortifera.6138 said:
    So DRMs are continuing in the new Champions episode

    of course they are. we'r in the age of absolutly minimum effort on ANet's part

    I wouldn't say Minimum effort, remember they are trying to finish up a living story while working on an expansion.

    So are you implying "minimum effort" could have been getting nothing from here to new expansion?
    Because nothing is the only worse thing than these pseudo-episodes.

    "Sticks and stones may break your bones but words will never be able to injure you!"
    The Grim Adventures of Billy & Mandy

  • Blude.6812Blude.6812 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Mortifera.6138 said:
    So DRMs are continuing in the new Champions episode... am I the only one who doesn’t like them? I want eSports (Strikes and Raids), not another mini-game. Sigh.

    I don't like any of the 3 modes mentioned. As for e-sports, not for this game.

  • ugrakarma.9416ugrakarma.9416 Member ✭✭✭✭

    i spent my vacations farming Drizzlewood almost, is a fun, engegin meta, and at end, i completed my exordium with profit here.

    But think what if u spend 1 week "farming" DRM, what u get at cost of such dull content?

    main pvp: Khel the Undead(power reaper).

  • ugrakarma.9416ugrakarma.9416 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 13, 2021

    @Hypnowulf.7403 said:
    So here's the problem: Casuals are money, hardcore players are not. In the hardcore mindset, the need for reward dictates that ArenaNet should be doing all they can to sate that desire for the raider's "hard work." There is little concept of recompense that I have borne witness to in raid culture. What this means is that any product that isn't that one (World of Warcraft, yes) is doomed to bankruptcy. See: WildStar.

    Anet is right, "raid economy" hurts the game. first they create a "elite group" aka experienced speed runners, then later, these speed runners just sit themselfs on LFG selling runs. but the Catch-22 of this content kill itself in long-term, so starts complaints about "no ones play its anymore", at same time they still blame pugs for game mode ruin. in WvW we see this sometimes, dudes complaining about game mode dying at same time complain when Anet try attract pugs/casuals to the game mode.

    main pvp: Khel the Undead(power reaper).

  • So far, the DRM are annoying. Having to listen to our boss Taimi tell us all the things that we have to do is like fingers on a chalkboard. Neville Chamberlain would be proud of her approach. Isn't she supposed to be dead yet or did that part of the story just get wiped away with a line of dialog like the 'balance' for the Elder Dragons or how the destroyers no longer have the other magic from the dragons as happened in Ember Bay.....

    Maybe that's my issue. The poor and inconsistent story telling more so than these boring missions.

  • Improve the rewards, something at least along the lines of the last fractal rush.

    Possibly make them dynamic open world events where people can hop in and out, like a world boss or like the awakened invasions to give a more critical, urgent feel.

    Overall, I don't mind them, but I think there needs to be more interesting incentives for a worthwhile grind, and speed up the story. Not feeling what should be true concern for Tyria. I do enjoy the enemy of my enemy is my friend aspect....or are they lol

  • Sobx.1758Sobx.1758 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 13, 2021

    There were already popular threads about DRMs.

    @Excursion.9752 said:
    For me DRM's are just not fun. Even if they added better rewards I probably would skip them as I have already.

    Pretty much this^

  • I value my naptime more.

  • Fueki.4753Fueki.4753 Member ✭✭✭✭

    DRMs in Chapter 1 were mind-numbingly boring instances of recycled models, recycled mechanics and bloated HP bars.
    And with the unfunny joke the story became, I think not getting any content would have been far superior to Champions.

    If the missions are going to be similar in chapter 2, with no significant improvements, then I won't play them outside of the story.

  • Nightcore.5621Nightcore.5621 Member ✭✭✭

    @Hypnowulf.7403 said:
    The thing to consider... is that this isn't the only content that ArenaNet is working on right now. Indeed, they're also chipping away at the Canthan expansion. This was—quite unfortunate as it is—an executive mandate from NCSoft. ArenaNet wanted to continue with sagas from this point onward, which I believe might have been the right choice, but the bigwigs at NCSoft are all about their bottom-line as a publically traded corporation so an expansion was foisted upon ArenaNet without aught in the way of warning.

    Thus, they have limited resources at hand. It isn't their fault that they find themselves in this position. Just as it isn't their fault Apple made continuing development on Mac platforms impossible. There are just a number of undesirable factors in confluence right now and they've no power to decide elsewise.

    I'm not pleased about what's happened as I believe that the Cantha expansion could've happened at a much later date, I worry about crunch. I don't blame ArenaNet, though. I mean, this is what capitalism does for better and worse.

    I am impressed, however, by what they've managed to achieve as I quite enjoyed the DRMs. Then again, my drive is for story, I don't find ephemeral numericals or "cheevos" as compelling as I reailse many do, so perhaps the ward system requires tweaking as they say. I wouldn't know. I do, however, agree that the bosses are a touch spongy. As a narrative experience to be taken as part of the greater whole of this Saga? I enjoy them. It was nice to see Taimi again and—shameless Icebrood cheerleader and Jormie proselytiser that I am—I was very excited to romp around alongside Ry-Ry. I might just be easy to please, especially where this storyline is concerned.

    This, of course, brings us to the pricklier part of this assembly's proceedings: The obvious disenfranchisement of the hardcore.

    I have discussed this topic at length. Raiding is a dopamine addiction, there's no end-point. I mean, it isn't just the drive for more difficult content because if it were, then one would chase the inverse-meta. One could equip sub-par items and utilise a strange, suboptimal build. This is about rewards and how they must be earned—if a reward is earned, it results in the dopamine hit that raiders simply need. However, this increases their power potential which means that future content must be more difficult. It's a never-ending cycle of difficulty vs. reward, and the further you strive down that sordid path, the less accessible to casual players your product becomes.

    So here's the problem: Casuals are money, hardcore players are not. In the hardcore mindset, the need for reward dictates that ArenaNet should be doing all they can to sate that desire for the raider's "hard work." There is little concept of recompense that I have borne witness to in raid culture. What this means is that any product that isn't that one (World of Warcraft, yes) is doomed to bankruptcy. See: WildStar.

    It's a matter of logistics. You have to consider the number of hardcore players (very few compared to other demographics), the cost of producing content entirely for them, and the profitability of that demographic. Unlike casuals, hardcore players are not money.

    This is especially true in Guild Wars 2 where you know as well as I do that you can convert gold to gems—and who has the most gold? Raiders, the hardcore players. If you can convert gold to gems, you have no need to buy gems, and in conversing with any of the raiders I've met? They don't buy gems! Why would they? They can convert their excess masses of gold so why bother? ArenaNet has actually created a scenario in which hardcore players are even less profitable than they would be in other scenarios.

    On the flipside? Casual players are money, as stated. We spend a lot of actual money on gems. ArenaNet needs actual money, not gold. I don't mean to be especially sardonic and patronising here (only a little) but NCSoft isn't interested in an ephemeral numerical. They care naught for however much gold you might have, their concern is only for filthy lucre, real world money to sate the ravenous hunger of their shareholders. If you've chosen to not be a source of this lucre, your words have no weight.

    So this is a two-pronged issue: It's expensive to develop content for only one audience at the expense of all others, and that audience is the least profitable audience of all. That's why they've been throwing bones at best, it's why they're reusing content. You simply aren't profitable. You don't buy gems and what you want is unattainable.

    Look at it this way: When you get to the point where ArenaNet can no longer deliver unto you that juicy, delectable, cajunga dopamine hit that you so desperately need, you'll all leave Guild Wars 2 in droves. This is what raiders do. They'll turn up at some game's doorstep as a minuscule yet ceaselessly chirruping mob, and they'll have unreasonable demands. I've seen it before so many times. Yes, trying to force any developer down this path—a path to bankruptcy—is unreasonable.

    So you're not profitable and eventually you'll all leave anyway. NCSoft is a corporation interested in their bottom-line. Where's the profit to be made from appealing to you as a potential audience? Where's the money? The not-gold money?

    Raid culture is its own self-fulfilling prophecy of doom. The problem is is that like gambling, operant conditioning chambers are addictions. If you really want an MMO to appeal to you above all else? Here's what you have to do: First of all, learn to temper yourself so that your addiction doesn't rule and ruin you. In order for this to be in any way sustainable, you have to be willing to accept a decreased dopamine flow. Next, remind yourselves that you're customers partaking of a product. You have to be profitable. If you're not? You won't get anywhere.

    This is something I've explained countless times. The most profitable group is casual players who play in groups of 1-3, 3 as the upper-limit. 1-2 will be even more common an amount. This is why the content is focused around appealing to them, whereas other demographics get table scraps. Blame capitalism if you want, I mean that is fair. That's a good start as you could try to fashion your own product. If you do, though, be sure to teach these lessons to your customers or you'll end up just as bankrupt.

    You have to meter yourselves and you have to be profitable. It might make you angry but that's the reality we live in. This is why MMOs have failed so often. Only the original—World of Warcraft—stands as an appeal to the hardcore raider. Every other MMO that has managed to survive caters to a more casual audience.

    I mean, it makes sense. It's why outfits and mounts are sold rather than gated behind content one has to grind for—it's also why they're the best looking in the game. Casuals are money. If they weren't, content for other demographics would be the focus.

    @Tazer.2157 said:
    DRMs can be designed to be group content [...]

    This is a very bad idea. The core profitable demographic doesn't enjoy forced grouping, that's a raid thing. In doing this, ArenaNet would alienate their paying customers. I mean, you have to realise that. This is why they don't do it.

    You could say that they could develop a system where players could replace NPCs, and certainly, they could do that! However, that costs development time and money (and time is also money!). The truth of the matter is, as I explained above, the raider demo isn't really a profitable one. In order for them to take their very limited resources away from developing other content, it would have to be towards a profitable goal.

    They might do this in Cantha as it would be a less expensive way to keep their raider audience around. They can develop single-player content where AI characters hold the other roles, and then multiplayer content where players step into the bodies of other characters. That's something they might do, but you can't count on it.

    You always have to consider the looming monolith of NCSoft. If ArenaNet does anything that really displeases them, it could mean a reshuffle and lost jobs or even the closure of their studio and the sunsetting of Guild Wars 2.

    If you want that to change—as I've said—be profitable and be patient! If the data shows that your demographic is profitable, that's something ArenaNet can show. As it stands, there are only table scraps because there are voices at ArenaNet that do enjoy more hardcore content—just as you do—but it's a bad idea to make too much of it when it doesn't increase the value of ArenaNet or Guild Wars 2.

    Eveything you said is so true.

  • Linken.6345Linken.6345 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Nightcore.5621 said:

    @Hypnowulf.7403 said:
    The thing to consider... is that this isn't the only content that ArenaNet is working on right now. Indeed, they're also chipping away at the Canthan expansion. This was—quite unfortunate as it is—an executive mandate from NCSoft. ArenaNet wanted to continue with sagas from this point onward, which I believe might have been the right choice, but the bigwigs at NCSoft are all about their bottom-line as a publically traded corporation so an expansion was foisted upon ArenaNet without aught in the way of warning.

    Thus, they have limited resources at hand. It isn't their fault that they find themselves in this position. Just as it isn't their fault Apple made continuing development on Mac platforms impossible. There are just a number of undesirable factors in confluence right now and they've no power to decide elsewise.

    I'm not pleased about what's happened as I believe that the Cantha expansion could've happened at a much later date, I worry about crunch. I don't blame ArenaNet, though. I mean, this is what capitalism does for better and worse.

    I am impressed, however, by what they've managed to achieve as I quite enjoyed the DRMs. Then again, my drive is for story, I don't find ephemeral numericals or "cheevos" as compelling as I reailse many do, so perhaps the ward system requires tweaking as they say. I wouldn't know. I do, however, agree that the bosses are a touch spongy. As a narrative experience to be taken as part of the greater whole of this Saga? I enjoy them. It was nice to see Taimi again and—shameless Icebrood cheerleader and Jormie proselytiser that I am—I was very excited to romp around alongside Ry-Ry. I might just be easy to please, especially where this storyline is concerned.

    This, of course, brings us to the pricklier part of this assembly's proceedings: The obvious disenfranchisement of the hardcore.

    I have discussed this topic at length. Raiding is a dopamine addiction, there's no end-point. I mean, it isn't just the drive for more difficult content because if it were, then one would chase the inverse-meta. One could equip sub-par items and utilise a strange, suboptimal build. This is about rewards and how they must be earned—if a reward is earned, it results in the dopamine hit that raiders simply need. However, this increases their power potential which means that future content must be more difficult. It's a never-ending cycle of difficulty vs. reward, and the further you strive down that sordid path, the less accessible to casual players your product becomes.

    So here's the problem: Casuals are money, hardcore players are not. In the hardcore mindset, the need for reward dictates that ArenaNet should be doing all they can to sate that desire for the raider's "hard work." There is little concept of recompense that I have borne witness to in raid culture. What this means is that any product that isn't that one (World of Warcraft, yes) is doomed to bankruptcy. See: WildStar.

    It's a matter of logistics. You have to consider the number of hardcore players (very few compared to other demographics), the cost of producing content entirely for them, and the profitability of that demographic. Unlike casuals, hardcore players are not money.

    This is especially true in Guild Wars 2 where you know as well as I do that you can convert gold to gems—and who has the most gold? Raiders, the hardcore players. If you can convert gold to gems, you have no need to buy gems, and in conversing with any of the raiders I've met? They don't buy gems! Why would they? They can convert their excess masses of gold so why bother? ArenaNet has actually created a scenario in which hardcore players are even less profitable than they would be in other scenarios.

    On the flipside? Casual players are money, as stated. We spend a lot of actual money on gems. ArenaNet needs actual money, not gold. I don't mean to be especially sardonic and patronising here (only a little) but NCSoft isn't interested in an ephemeral numerical. They care naught for however much gold you might have, their concern is only for filthy lucre, real world money to sate the ravenous hunger of their shareholders. If you've chosen to not be a source of this lucre, your words have no weight.

    So this is a two-pronged issue: It's expensive to develop content for only one audience at the expense of all others, and that audience is the least profitable audience of all. That's why they've been throwing bones at best, it's why they're reusing content. You simply aren't profitable. You don't buy gems and what you want is unattainable.

    Look at it this way: When you get to the point where ArenaNet can no longer deliver unto you that juicy, delectable, cajunga dopamine hit that you so desperately need, you'll all leave Guild Wars 2 in droves. This is what raiders do. They'll turn up at some game's doorstep as a minuscule yet ceaselessly chirruping mob, and they'll have unreasonable demands. I've seen it before so many times. Yes, trying to force any developer down this path—a path to bankruptcy—is unreasonable.

    So you're not profitable and eventually you'll all leave anyway. NCSoft is a corporation interested in their bottom-line. Where's the profit to be made from appealing to you as a potential audience? Where's the money? The not-gold money?

    Raid culture is its own self-fulfilling prophecy of doom. The problem is is that like gambling, operant conditioning chambers are addictions. If you really want an MMO to appeal to you above all else? Here's what you have to do: First of all, learn to temper yourself so that your addiction doesn't rule and ruin you. In order for this to be in any way sustainable, you have to be willing to accept a decreased dopamine flow. Next, remind yourselves that you're customers partaking of a product. You have to be profitable. If you're not? You won't get anywhere.

    This is something I've explained countless times. The most profitable group is casual players who play in groups of 1-3, 3 as the upper-limit. 1-2 will be even more common an amount. This is why the content is focused around appealing to them, whereas other demographics get table scraps. Blame capitalism if you want, I mean that is fair. That's a good start as you could try to fashion your own product. If you do, though, be sure to teach these lessons to your customers or you'll end up just as bankrupt.

    You have to meter yourselves and you have to be profitable. It might make you angry but that's the reality we live in. This is why MMOs have failed so often. Only the original—World of Warcraft—stands as an appeal to the hardcore raider. Every other MMO that has managed to survive caters to a more casual audience.

    I mean, it makes sense. It's why outfits and mounts are sold rather than gated behind content one has to grind for—it's also why they're the best looking in the game. Casuals are money. If they weren't, content for other demographics would be the focus.

    @Tazer.2157 said:
    DRMs can be designed to be group content [...]

    This is a very bad idea. The core profitable demographic doesn't enjoy forced grouping, that's a raid thing. In doing this, ArenaNet would alienate their paying customers. I mean, you have to realise that. This is why they don't do it.

    You could say that they could develop a system where players could replace NPCs, and certainly, they could do that! However, that costs development time and money (and time is also money!). The truth of the matter is, as I explained above, the raider demo isn't really a profitable one. In order for them to take their very limited resources away from developing other content, it would have to be towards a profitable goal.

    They might do this in Cantha as it would be a less expensive way to keep their raider audience around. They can develop single-player content where AI characters hold the other roles, and then multiplayer content where players step into the bodies of other characters. That's something they might do, but you can't count on it.

    You always have to consider the looming monolith of NCSoft. If ArenaNet does anything that really displeases them, it could mean a reshuffle and lost jobs or even the closure of their studio and the sunsetting of Guild Wars 2.

    If you want that to change—as I've said—be profitable and be patient! If the data shows that your demographic is profitable, that's something ArenaNet can show. As it stands, there are only table scraps because there are voices at ArenaNet that do enjoy more hardcore content—just as you do—but it's a bad idea to make too much of it when it doesn't increase the value of ArenaNet or Guild Wars 2.

    Eveything you said is so true.

    Yea if you totaly dissregard that without people turning gold into gems, there is no incentive for casuals to buy gems and turn to gold.

  • LucianTheAngelic.7054LucianTheAngelic.7054 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 14, 2021

    DRMs are less mechanically interesting than dozens upon dozens of other story missions in the game. In LS3 we fought Balthazar in Draconis Mons and Lazarus in Siren’s Landing. LS4 had the robot thing from Sandswept, Joko, Thunderhead Kralk, and Dragon Fall Kralk. There are tons more instances of interesting bosses and missions in previous LS that are just leaps and bounds better than anything any of the current DRMs have to offer.

    The only good thing that DRMs does is start to move story content into scalable content with different levels of mode difficulty. This is literally what Raids and Dungeons should have been since their inception. Everything that is good about Raids/Dungeons/Previous Story Missions should have been combined with DRM’s “difficulty levels” and “soloable or group content” design. This solves the “we can’t design raids/dungeons for people anymore because they’re not profitable” issue, as it streamlines all of the content into an easily re-usable design. All other major MMOs combine their story with their Raids & Dungeons and offer different difficulties, precisely for this and other reasons. Instead GW2 forces you to play through one-or-two-time story content to fight Elder Dragons and Gods in fairly unchallenging encounters and then relegates raids/dungeons/fractals/strikes to “other” content that is readily abandoned because “it takes too much money and effort to produce both story content and raids/dungeons/etc.”

    The thing is this should’ve been a 2012 launch feature, or a HoT feature (when raids were added). Instead they went about rolling out dungeons/fractals/raids/strikes in completely incorrect ways that unnecessarily attempt to innovate on industry standards and then are surprised when their version doesn’t work out and costs too much to maintain content for.

    DRMs in their current form are too little, too late, and not up to the quality expectations that the rest of the game since Living World Season 1 set.

  • Westenev.5289Westenev.5289 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I think DRM's are an interesting concept, but I vastly preferred the DRM pre-events over the actual DRM. The starting event feels like I can play with or around less than capable players and have fun, but the actual DRM just feels like story mode. The boss is a health sponge, and the other players bring terrible open world builds which make them about as useful as the NPC allies...

  • sorudo.9054sorudo.9054 Member ✭✭✭✭

    please don't use DRM, there is a reason why i don't like to use steam.

    the truth is harsh, my opinions are too.

  • Danikat.8537Danikat.8537 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @sorudo.9054 said:
    please don't use DRM, there is a reason why i don't like to use steam.

    I'm glad I'm not the only one who thinks of that every time I see the acronym.

    Danielle Aurorel, Desolation EU. Mini Collector

    "Life's a journey, not a destination."

  • Same here, grind them for the masteries and achievements, then turn around and never look back at these.
    Poorly implemented, predictable, copy/paste work.
    Not a single real developer was involved the 3 missions so far were 3 times same thing.
    Professional studios should NEVER resort to copy/paste, yet here we are.

  • sorudo.9054sorudo.9054 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Danikat.8537 said:

    @sorudo.9054 said:
    please don't use DRM, there is a reason why i don't like to use steam.

    I'm glad I'm not the only one who thinks of that every time I see the acronym.

    DRM for what it really means has existed for quite some time, just calling it something like DM would already lower the confusion.

    the truth is harsh, my opinions are too.

  • Pifil.5193Pifil.5193 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @AliamRationem.5172 said:

    @sniperman.1738 said:

    @Konrad Curze.5130 said:

    @Mortifera.6138 said:
    So DRMs are continuing in the new Champions episode

    of course they are. we'r in the age of absolutly minimum effort on ANet's part

    I wouldn't say Minimum effort, remember they are trying to finish up a living story while working on an expansion.

    I love GW2, but the decision not to invest in its future by working on an expansion to follow PoF was disastrous. They've since corrected course, but all that time was wasted and now they are playing catch up, causing current content releases to suffer. I'm glad they're working on EoD, but DRMs as a means of advancing the story are indeed low-effort and not at all satisfying.

    This is true. They should have carried on with the basic model of expansions followed by LS seasons but they decided to deviate from that saying they could deliver expansion level content in the LS. I suspect it was more because they hoped one of their side projects would pan out and they could switch their focus off GW2 to that but they didn't pan out.

    So they decided or were told to switch back to an expansion model. Now they are playing catch up and these terrible quarter episode DRM chapters are the result of that. I am looking forward to the expansion but I'd much rather that they took time to finish the saga properly while working on a polished expansion. Instead I fear they will rush the expansion while at the same time pushing out a terrible finale to the saga.

    If they somehow remove or defeat Primordus and Jormag in one of these DRMs then that will be a real shame and a terrible injustice to the Elder Dragon story-line.

    Heck, it'll be an injustice to the word "saga."

  • Ashen.2907Ashen.2907 Member ✭✭✭✭

    How are DRM mini-games but Strikes are not?

  • Mortifera.6138Mortifera.6138 Member ✭✭✭

    @Ashen.2907 said:
    How are DRM mini-games but Strikes are not?

    Your rotation/skills matter in a Strike. In DRMs, you have other objectives. GW2 likes to turn into a platformer sometimes.

  • Ashen.2907Ashen.2907 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Mortifera.6138 said:

    @Ashen.2907 said:
    How are DRM mini-games but Strikes are not?

    Your rotation/skills matter in a Strike. In DRMs, you have other objectives. GW2 likes to turn into a platformer sometimes.

    I haven't played the DRM that is a platformer (which is not a bad thing as I do not care for platformer games).

  • Nilkemia.8507Nilkemia.8507 Member ✭✭✭
    edited January 16, 2021

    More forced grouping, which I don't like. Bosses aren't hard, just HP sponges that take longer than they need to (coupled with phases where the bosses are invulnerable or can't be hit just making this worse), and little if any story bits inside of them, which could've been handled in their own story instances, instead of trying to put this in the way for me to complete.

    And what little story there is isn't really interesting.

    I'm not sure what purpose this content serves again.

    The Volcanic Stormcaller weapons might be neat...if the smoke effects didn't cover 75% or more of the weapons themselves. So thankfully I don't feel the need to grind for them.

  • Linken.6345Linken.6345 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Nilkemia.8507 said:
    More forced grouping, which I don't like. Bosses aren't hard, just HP sponges that take longer than they need to (coupled with phases where the bosses are invulnerable or can't be hit just making this worse), and little if any story bits inside of them, which could've been handled in their own story instances, instead of trying to put this in the way for me to complete.

    And what little story there is isn't really interesting.

    I'm not sure what purpose this content serves again.

    The Volcanic Stormcaller weapons might be neat...if the smoke effects didn't cover 75% or more of the weapons themselves. So thankfully I don't feel the need to grind for them.

    Again you can play them solo if you enter alone in private.

  • Nilkemia.8507Nilkemia.8507 Member ✭✭✭

    @Linken.6345 said:>
    Again you can play them solo if you enter alone in private.

    I can, but it would take even longer, with all the other problems still remaining. It's not as blatant as Zhaitan pre-rework, or, alchemy forbid, mapping Dragon's Stand, but it's clearly designed in a way to make one choose grouping over not, if just to get it over with faster, since it doesn't seem to scale down for one person. Or at least it didn't, back when I did it.

  • Linken.6345Linken.6345 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Nilkemia.8507 said:

    @Linken.6345 said:>
    Again you can play them solo if you enter alone in private.

    I can, but it would take even longer, with all the other problems still remaining. It's not as blatant as Zhaitan pre-rework, or, alchemy forbid, mapping Dragon's Stand, but it's clearly designed in a way to make one choose grouping over not, if just to get it over with faster, since it doesn't seem to scale down for one person. Or at least it didn't, back when I did it.

    It do you probabely just have a low damage high survive build maybe?