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Why Rune Of The Trapper Needs To Go - Short Video Inside

Trevor Boyer.6524Trevor Boyer.6524 Member ✭✭✭✭
edited January 14, 2021 in PVP
  1. Notice at start of video, there is no enemy Guardian anywhere near me on the mini map before he appears on me for a stealth gank.
  2. When he stealths to disengage me, I did later notice in the video that he had gone left and blipped on the map near my Necro at far. The only possible way he could have done this without the use of speedhack or telehack, is with JI to clip through the mountain side to the Necro. If Rune Of The Trapper can provide him that much superspeed and stealth to be able to do that legitimately without the use of hack programs, that's way way too much disengage/rotational power. That's DP Thief like rotational power when SB#5 was only 5 init.
  3. Dragonhunters should not be able to gank, rotate, and disengage like a Thief. End of story.

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Comments

  • Abyssisis.3971Abyssisis.3971 Member ✭✭✭

    Looks to me like the enemy DH teleported to you with JI you as you took 1 burn first up. No idea where it came from tho, could of been out of sight like it was when it ran from you over to their home point.

  • Trevor Boyer.6524Trevor Boyer.6524 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 14, 2021

    @Swagger.1459 said:
    Are you aware that a guardian can port?

    You have a reveal, and it was on your skill bar too.. so use it maybe?

    You almost killed that guarding... even with stealth... even with super speed... and the player still needed to run away... yet we need to nerf trapper runes?

    Are you aware that I already gave a full insightful explanation about the use of JI in this situation?

    Read the post, listen to the audio in the video.

    The Sic Em was on cool down my good dude, and even when you do use it, it is a 10s reveal per 28s use.

    The point being is that Rune Of The Trapper allowing a long enough of a disengage to even be able to walk closely enough to clip through the mountain to the necro at far, is just too much gank/rotational/disengage power for what is designed to be one of the heaviest attribute tied bruisers in the game.

    Any stark defense you toss at this is kind of silly.

  • Trevor Boyer.6524Trevor Boyer.6524 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Abyssisis.3971 said:
    Looks to me like the enemy DH teleported to you with JI you as you took 1 burn first up. No idea where it came from tho, could of been out of sight like it was when it ran from you over to their home point.

    Yeah that's my point precisely. They have enough stealth/super speed to be able to pull stuff off like that. They can stealth from behind an obstruction so you can't see where they are, and they run like 1500 range in stealth and then JI at you another odd 1500 some range, and you can't see it coming. That's legit thief/mesmer styled burst play right there. The only difference is that Thief/Mesmer are glass cannon and have to target single targets, whereas the DH is a heavy bruiser who releases a massive AoE node nuke with Dragon Maw CC combined, which is very powerful now after the big nerf that removed so much stability.

    Granting that kind of stealth ganking/rotational/disengage factor to one of the heaviest bruisers in the game is just broken balance no matter how you look at it. It'd be like if I could hack Smash Bros and make it so Bowser moved as fast as Sonic The Hedgehog. Why would anyone play anything else other than Bowser at that point, a heavy who moved as fast as a light? aaaaaaand that is exactly why we are seeing a ridiculous DH class representation right now.

    DH isn't the problem. Rune Of The Trapper is the problem.

  • Swagger.1459Swagger.1459 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

    @Swagger.1459 said:
    Are you aware that a guardian can port?

    You have a reveal, and it was on your skill bar too.. so use it maybe?

    You almost killed that guarding... even with stealth... even with super speed... and the player still needed to run away... yet we need to nerf trapper runes?

    Are you aware that I already gave a full insightful explanation about the use of JI in this situation?

    Read the post, listen to the audio in the video.

    The Sic Em was on cool down my good dude, and even when you do use it, it is a 10s reveal per 28s use.

    The point being is that Rune Of The Trapper allowing a long enough of a disengage to even be able to walk closely enough to clip through the mountain to the necro at far, is just too much gank/rotational/disengage power for what is designed to be one of the heaviest attribute tied bruisers in the game.

    Any stark defense you toss at this is kind of silly.

    So you are asking the devs to nerf trapper runes based off of a video where the player using trapper runes had to run away from you to survive?

  • knite.1542knite.1542 Member ✭✭✭

    Is the trapper runes that are the problem or the speedhacks that he is apparently using

    If your team wins it's because of everyone else. If your team loses, blame the thief.
    ranger is OP but holo is more OP so its fine
    Why do this matter at all, you have people asking you why play so bad as fractal god?
    If they would pull that kitten on me, i would sue instantly. And i have enough time and money to finish that.
    Balance? More like a bunch of random nerfs done by interns.
    They're far from useless...you just got used to busted levels of dmg...welcome back to planet earth
    The first time someone sees you, they're already thinking about kicking you out of the party..........

  • Abyssisis.3971Abyssisis.3971 Member ✭✭✭

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

    @Abyssisis.3971 said:
    Looks to me like the enemy DH teleported to you with JI you as you took 1 burn first up. No idea where it came from tho, could of been out of sight like it was when it ran from you over to their home point.

    Yeah that's my point precisely. They have enough stealth/super speed to be able to pull stuff off like that. They can stealth from behind an obstruction so you can't see where they are, and they run like 1500 range in stealth and then JI at you another odd 1500 some range, and you can't see it coming. That's legit thief/mesmer styled burst play right there. The only difference is that Thief/Mesmer are glass cannon and have to target single targets, whereas the DH is a heavy bruiser who releases a massive AoE node nuke with Dragon Maw CC combined, which is very powerful now after the big nerf that removed so much stability.

    Granting that kind of stealth ganking/rotational/disengage factor to one of the heaviest bruisers in the game is just broken balance no matter how you look at it. It'd be like if I could hack Smash Bros and make it so Bowser moved as fast as Sonic The Hedgehog. Why would anyone play anything else other than Bowser at that point, a heavy who moved as fast as a light? aaaaaaand that is exactly why we are seeing a ridiculous DH class representation right now.

    DH isn't the problem. Rune Of The Trapper is the problem.

    I’m all for the removal of stealth from trapper runes/stealth in general lol, but I doubt it will solve any issues with DH as a lot of the complains are coming from it being a spamming play style with lots of burn stacks and being too easy to play for how much damage it causes.

    Is rune of the trapper broken on rangers? I never hear any complaints about rangers using it, just DH using it.

  • Bazsi.2734Bazsi.2734 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Abyssisis.3971 said:

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

    @Abyssisis.3971 said:
    Looks to me like the enemy DH teleported to you with JI you as you took 1 burn first up. No idea where it came from tho, could of been out of sight like it was when it ran from you over to their home point.

    Yeah that's my point precisely. They have enough stealth/super speed to be able to pull stuff off like that. They can stealth from behind an obstruction so you can't see where they are, and they run like 1500 range in stealth and then JI at you another odd 1500 some range, and you can't see it coming. That's legit thief/mesmer styled burst play right there. The only difference is that Thief/Mesmer are glass cannon and have to target single targets, whereas the DH is a heavy bruiser who releases a massive AoE node nuke with Dragon Maw CC combined, which is very powerful now after the big nerf that removed so much stability.

    Granting that kind of stealth ganking/rotational/disengage factor to one of the heaviest bruisers in the game is just broken balance no matter how you look at it. It'd be like if I could hack Smash Bros and make it so Bowser moved as fast as Sonic The Hedgehog. Why would anyone play anything else other than Bowser at that point, a heavy who moved as fast as a light? aaaaaaand that is exactly why we are seeing a ridiculous DH class representation right now.

    DH isn't the problem. Rune Of The Trapper is the problem.

    I’m all for the removal of stealth from trapper runes/stealth in general lol, but I doubt it will solve any issues with DH as a lot of the complains are coming from it being a spamming play style with lots of burn stacks and being too easy to play for how much damage it causes.

    Is rune of the trapper broken on rangers? I never hear any complaints about rangers using it, just DH using it.

    Dragonhunter is actually quite weak without trapper runes. The burn build especially is a jokebuild with no stunbreaks, which is not even close to viable without the detargets/superspeed from Trapper Runes. So reworking/removing the rune would totally solve the problam, maybe DH would even need some buffs to compensate.
    Also if trapper ranger is totally fine (I find it also lame, but stealth is part of rangers kit so whatever), we could implement this radical idea of limiting which amulets and runes a class/eliespec has access to.

  • Trevor Boyer.6524Trevor Boyer.6524 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Ragnar.4257 said:

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

    @Ragnar.4257 said:
    I mean, I don' t disagree that trapper rune needs to go.

    But this clip, shows you able to 1-shot a guy from ranged, and then able to face-tank a full unload of a burn-DH's burst and walk out of it just fine while the DH barely escapes with 10% HP.

    1. I didn't "Face Tank" anything, I used a block skill. In fact, I had to burn every resource I had to not die, and even then I only walked away from his stealth gank with a sliver of my health pool.
    2. I didn't "walk out of it fine" I was at like 3% health after it happened.

    Might want to reassess your evaluation of what happened there.

    Oh, so if you use block skills, it doesn't count as face-tanking. Nice, I'll remember that for next QQ thread about Aegis.

    And yet, by the end of the engagement (before OOC reset) you're basically back at full HP while the DH is still down at 10%.

    Again, I don't disagree with removing trapper rune, I just think it's a strange clip to try and show how OP it is.

    My dude you are veering quite far away from the point of the discussion about Rune Of The Trapper.

    If you have something else on your mind just say it, but stop beating around the bush.

    @Abyssisis.3971 said:

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

    @Abyssisis.3971 said:
    Looks to me like the enemy DH teleported to you with JI you as you took 1 burn first up. No idea where it came from tho, could of been out of sight like it was when it ran from you over to their home point.

    Yeah that's my point precisely. They have enough stealth/super speed to be able to pull stuff off like that. They can stealth from behind an obstruction so you can't see where they are, and they run like 1500 range in stealth and then JI at you another odd 1500 some range, and you can't see it coming. That's legit thief/mesmer styled burst play right there. The only difference is that Thief/Mesmer are glass cannon and have to target single targets, whereas the DH is a heavy bruiser who releases a massive AoE node nuke with Dragon Maw CC combined, which is very powerful now after the big nerf that removed so much stability.

    Granting that kind of stealth ganking/rotational/disengage factor to one of the heaviest bruisers in the game is just broken balance no matter how you look at it. It'd be like if I could hack Smash Bros and make it so Bowser moved as fast as Sonic The Hedgehog. Why would anyone play anything else other than Bowser at that point, a heavy who moved as fast as a light? aaaaaaand that is exactly why we are seeing a ridiculous DH class representation right now.

    DH isn't the problem. Rune Of The Trapper is the problem.

    I’m all for the removal of stealth from trapper runes/stealth in general lol, but I doubt it will solve any issues with DH as a lot of the complains are coming from it being a spamming play style with lots of burn stacks and being too easy to play for how much damage it causes.

    Is rune of the trapper broken on rangers? I never hear any complaints about rangers using it, just DH using it.

    It's not so hot on Ranger/Druid/Soulbeast for several reasons.

  • Trevor Boyer.6524Trevor Boyer.6524 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 14, 2021

    @Swagger.1459 said:

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

    @Swagger.1459 said:
    Are you aware that a guardian can port?

    You have a reveal, and it was on your skill bar too.. so use it maybe?

    You almost killed that guarding... even with stealth... even with super speed... and the player still needed to run away... yet we need to nerf trapper runes?

    Are you aware that I already gave a full insightful explanation about the use of JI in this situation?

    Read the post, listen to the audio in the video.

    The Sic Em was on cool down my good dude, and even when you do use it, it is a 10s reveal per 28s use.

    The point being is that Rune Of The Trapper allowing a long enough of a disengage to even be able to walk closely enough to clip through the mountain to the necro at far, is just too much gank/rotational/disengage power for what is designed to be one of the heaviest attribute tied bruisers in the game.

    Any stark defense you toss at this is kind of silly.

    So you are asking the devs to nerf trapper runes based off of a video where the player using trapper runes had to run away from you to survive?

    I think you are misunderstanding the disparity of difference between comparing build structures and comparing player skill levels.

    If a very experienced player wields a trash meme build and beats a meta spec, it does not mean that the meme build is actually good, and it does not mean that the meta build wasn't overperforming, regardless of how bad the player was wielding it.

    It's 2021, game is 9 years old, everyone has identified this understanding while discussing GW2 balance.

    So enough with these kinds of responses. I want to hear some real substantial argument about Rune Of The Trapper. If you don't have any, maybe it is time to move onto a new thread.

  • wevh.2903wevh.2903 Member ✭✭✭

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:
    1. Notice at start of video, there is no enemy Guardian anywhere near me on the mini map before he appears on me for a stealth gank.
    2. When he stealths to disengage me, I did later notice in the video that he had gone left and blipped on the map near my Necro at far. The only possible way he could have done this without the use of speedhack or telehack, is with JI to clip through the mountain side to the Necro. If Rune Of The Trapper can provide him that much superspeed and stealth to be able to do that legitimately without the use of hack programs, that's way way too much disengage/rotational power. That's DP Thief like rotational power when SB#5 was only 5 init.
    3. Dragonhunters should not be able to gank, rotate, and disengage like a Thief. End of story.

    You used both your elite and sic em to kill a guy with 40% hp wich is a big missplay , you should had used only elite and then use sic em on the guardian.

    If you want to reveal the guardian you can activate a randon trap .

  • Zagerus.8675Zagerus.8675 Member ✭✭✭

    I agree. I don't think a rune should be augmenting a build to the point where it is functioning like a trait. If it was on heal skill use or something then it wouldn't be such a.. weird rune. xD

  • Psycoprophet.8107Psycoprophet.8107 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 14, 2021

    @Ragnar.4257 said:

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

    @Ragnar.4257 said:
    I mean, I don' t disagree that trapper rune needs to go.

    But this clip, shows you able to 1-shot a guy from ranged, and then able to face-tank a full unload of a burn-DH's burst and walk out of it just fine while the DH barely escapes with 10% HP.

    1. I didn't "Face Tank" anything, I used a block skill. In fact, I had to burn every resource I had to not die, and even then I only walked away from his stealth gank with a sliver of my health pool.
    2. I didn't "walk out of it fine" I was at like 3% health after it happened.

    Might want to reassess your evaluation of what happened there.

    Oh, so if you use block skills, it doesn't count as face-tanking. Nice, I'll remember that for next QQ thread about Aegis.

    And yet, by the end of the engagement (before OOC reset) you're basically back at full HP while the DH is still down at 10%.

    Again, I don't disagree with removing trapper rune, I just think it's a strange clip to try and show how OP it is.

    No blocking does not qualify as face tanking, someone NOT blocking or useing any of their defensive skills and just eating the damage constitutes as face tanking. Yes pls remember such in future qq's. Oh and regarding aegis as u mentione is a mechanic that periodically passively protects the guard from face tanking damage, helps newer or unskilled players that arnt good enough yet to time their defensive skills from face tanking damage, although I guess if were talking about a passive occurring block requiring no input than it could be considered a face tanking aid :).

  • Trevor Boyer.6524Trevor Boyer.6524 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 14, 2021

    Actually @Swagger.1459 the point of the video clip and this thread was to highlight the stealth gank/rotational/disengage potential that Rune Of The Trapper is granting DH. The video highlights this quite perfectly actually. The point of the video was not to compare Rangers vs. DHs. The point of the video was to display what Rune Of The Trapper was granting DH, and to express the widely received community view that DHs shouldn't be thieving & mesmering in the same way that actual thieves & mesmers are able to thief & mesmer.

    @wevh.2903 The video and this thread is about Rune Of The Trapper. This is a discussion about a rune effect, not rangers, not guardians, not DHs, and not your critique on how you felt I should have zigged when I zagged. It's a discussion about Rune Of The Trapper, and whether or not people feel that a Guardian should be able to stealth gank/rotate/disengage like a Thief or not.

    Also, I like this:

    @Zagerus.8675 said:
    I agree. I don't think a rune should be augmenting a build to the point where it is functioning like a trait. If it was on heal skill use or something then it wouldn't be such a.. weird rune. xD

    ^ Not a bad idea. Even if they turned the 2s stealth/super speed down to only 1s, I'd be fine with that. That would let them keep their ability to detarget somewhat often and increase their disengage potential due to it, but it wouldn't allow them elongated Shadow Refuge like stealth ganking & disengaging which is where the problems begin.

  • Trevor Boyer.6524Trevor Boyer.6524 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Bazsi.2734 said:

    @Abyssisis.3971 said:

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

    @Abyssisis.3971 said:
    Looks to me like the enemy DH teleported to you with JI you as you took 1 burn first up. No idea where it came from tho, could of been out of sight like it was when it ran from you over to their home point.

    Yeah that's my point precisely. They have enough stealth/super speed to be able to pull stuff off like that. They can stealth from behind an obstruction so you can't see where they are, and they run like 1500 range in stealth and then JI at you another odd 1500 some range, and you can't see it coming. That's legit thief/mesmer styled burst play right there. The only difference is that Thief/Mesmer are glass cannon and have to target single targets, whereas the DH is a heavy bruiser who releases a massive AoE node nuke with Dragon Maw CC combined, which is very powerful now after the big nerf that removed so much stability.

    Granting that kind of stealth ganking/rotational/disengage factor to one of the heaviest bruisers in the game is just broken balance no matter how you look at it. It'd be like if I could hack Smash Bros and make it so Bowser moved as fast as Sonic The Hedgehog. Why would anyone play anything else other than Bowser at that point, a heavy who moved as fast as a light? aaaaaaand that is exactly why we are seeing a ridiculous DH class representation right now.

    DH isn't the problem. Rune Of The Trapper is the problem.

    I’m all for the removal of stealth from trapper runes/stealth in general lol, but I doubt it will solve any issues with DH as a lot of the complains are coming from it being a spamming play style with lots of burn stacks and being too easy to play for how much damage it causes.

    Is rune of the trapper broken on rangers? I never hear any complaints about rangers using it, just DH using it.

    Dragonhunter is actually quite weak without trapper runes.

    I actually agree with this. I think they need Rune Of The Trapper to be functional. The problem is that they are too functional to the point of overperformance right now, and they are bordering on being allowed game mechanics that only thieves and mesmers should have.

    The thing is though, they shouldn't be balancing DH around a single rune. If DH needs a very specific rune to be functional, that is a problem with DH just as much as it is the rune that is making it over perform.

    If this is the case, DH needs fixing so that it can perform without needing a rune that turns it into a cross-class thief.

  • anduriell.6280anduriell.6280 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

    I actually agree with this. I think they need Rune Of The Trapper to be functional. The problem is that they are too functional to the point of overperformance right now, and they are bordering on being allowed game mechanics that only thieves and mesmers should have.

    The thing is though, they shouldn't be balancing DH around a single rune. If DH needs a very specific rune to be functional, that is a problem with DH just as much as it is the rune that is making it over perform.

    If this is the case, DH needs fixing so that it can perform without needing a rune that turns it into a cross-class thief.

    If Stealth would not stack reducing the stealth time would work on the runes.
    While stealth can stack the DH just needs to equip 5 traps it will still have enough stealth uptime.

  • Math.5123Math.5123 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Imagine dedicating 80% of your utility bar, along with a rune to get some mobility. Only to have people say you shouldn't be allowed to.

    I haven't logged into the game for about two months, and even when i did play; i didn't touch this build more than a handful of games.

    I agree that the rune needs to go, but not for the reasons you're giving.
    You're saying it gives the rotational expertise only a thief or mesmer should have. When in reality, running with perma swiftness will cover more distance faster.
    The stealth is the only cancerous part about the rune because it allows them to play without a stunbreak.
    What's more is the insane scaling of permeating wrath in teamfights.

    Double cleansing sigil and 1 source of stab is enough to beat this build in a 1v1.

    ~ God Tier Guardian

  • Gwaihir.1745Gwaihir.1745 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 14, 2021

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:
    1. Notice at start of video, there is no enemy Guardian anywhere near me on the mini map before he appears on me for a stealth gank.
    2. When he stealths to disengage me, I did later notice in the video that he had gone left and blipped on the map near my Necro at far. The only possible way he could have done this without the use of speedhack or telehack, is with JI to clip through the mountain side to the Necro. If Rune Of The Trapper can provide him that much superspeed and stealth to be able to do that legitimately without the use of hack programs, that's way way too much disengage/rotational power. That's DP Thief like rotational power when SB#5 was only 5 init.
    3. Dragonhunters should not be able to gank, rotate, and disengage like a Thief. End of story.

    If you're getting punished by a build that has 1 stunbreak there is nothing anyone can post here, nor anything anet can ever nerf that will make you semi-decent at pvp.

    Shield of Wrath: Reduced the cooldown of this skill from 36 seconds to 35 seconds.

    Quality balance changes^TM

  • Trevor Boyer.6524Trevor Boyer.6524 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Gwaihir.1745 Once again, this thread is not about how bad or good I am, or the DH in the video, or anyone for that matter. This thread is about the basic fundamental discussion on how DHs shouldn't be able to do thieving & mesmering as well as an actual thief or mesmer.

    But if you insist on redirecting the topic towards some kind of player skill evaluation, let me quote this for you incase you did not see it yet:

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

    I think you are misunderstanding the disparity of difference between comparing build structures and comparing player skill levels.

    If a very experienced player wields a trash meme build and beats a meta spec, it does not mean that the meme build is actually good, and it does not mean that the meta build wasn't overperforming, regardless of how bad the player was wielding it.

    It's 2021, game is 9 years old, everyone has identified this understanding while discussing GW2 balance.

    So enough with these kinds of responses. I want to hear some real substantial argument about Rune Of The Trapper. If you don't have any, maybe it is time to move onto a new thread.

  • Gwaihir.1745Gwaihir.1745 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:
    @Gwaihir.1745 Once again, this thread is not about how bad or good I am, or the DH in the video, or anyone for that matter. This thread is about the basic fundamental discussion on how DHs shouldn't be able to do thieving & mesmering as well as an actual thief or mesmer.

    But if you insist on redirecting the topic towards some kind of player skill evaluation, let me quote this for you incase you did not see it yet:

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

    I think you are misunderstanding the disparity of difference between comparing build structures and comparing player skill levels.

    If a very experienced player wields a trash meme build and beats a meta spec, it does not mean that the meme build is actually good, and it does not mean that the meta build wasn't overperforming, regardless of how bad the player was wielding it.

    It's 2021, game is 9 years old, everyone has identified this understanding while discussing GW2 balance.

    So enough with these kinds of responses. I want to hear some real substantial argument about Rune Of The Trapper. If you don't have any, maybe it is time to move onto a new thread.

    Oh if you want to go down that road, lets talk about how that is purely conjecture on your part. You haven't provided any substantial argument proving it supercedes thief nor mesmers capabilities, nor do you seem the understand the roles anet has set to them. Because it's quite obvious to everyone in this thread that a thief is a better a thief than a gimmick dh build, and it would be readily apparent to you should you lose the cognitive dissonance you created by defending an invalid point from the get go.

    Shield of Wrath: Reduced the cooldown of this skill from 36 seconds to 35 seconds.

    Quality balance changes^TM

  • Trevor Boyer.6524Trevor Boyer.6524 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 14, 2021

    @Gwaihir.1745 said:

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:
    @Gwaihir.1745 Once again, this thread is not about how bad or good I am, or the DH in the video, or anyone for that matter. This thread is about the basic fundamental discussion on how DHs shouldn't be able to do thieving & mesmering as well as an actual thief or mesmer.

    But if you insist on redirecting the topic towards some kind of player skill evaluation, let me quote this for you incase you did not see it yet:

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

    I think you are misunderstanding the disparity of difference between comparing build structures and comparing player skill levels.

    If a very experienced player wields a trash meme build and beats a meta spec, it does not mean that the meme build is actually good, and it does not mean that the meta build wasn't overperforming, regardless of how bad the player was wielding it.

    It's 2021, game is 9 years old, everyone has identified this understanding while discussing GW2 balance.

    So enough with these kinds of responses. I want to hear some real substantial argument about Rune Of The Trapper. If you don't have any, maybe it is time to move onto a new thread.

    Oh if you want to go down that road, lets talk about how that is purely conjecture on your part. You haven't provided any substantial argument proving it supercedes thief nor mesmers capabilities, nor do you seem the understand the roles anet has set to them. Because it's quite obvious to everyone in this thread that a thief is a better a thief than a gimmick dh build, and it would be readily apparent to you should you lose the cognitive dissonance you created by defending an invalid point from the get go.

    1. I made no conjecture. It isn't conjecture when someone states a fact. In this case I stated a fact about the purpose of this thread and what the discussion was about.
    2. You are the one who made "conjecture" when you tried to encourage your opinion that I did not have a right to post an opinion about Rune Of The Trapper because: "If you're getting punished by a build that has 1 stunbreak there is nothing anyone can post here, nor anything anet can ever nerf that will make you semi-decent at pvp." <- That's just an insulting attack on character, in hopes to create some kind of an "off the tracks" defense vs. the topic, which is about Rune Of The Trapper turning DHs into thief/mesmer cross class, which the video footage clearly and indisputably shows is true. That's not conjecture, that is actually happening, as shown in the video.
    3. I never said anything about "DH superseding or surpassing Thief & Mesmer at Thieving & Mesmering." I said that DHs shouldn't be able to thieve & mesmer like actual thieves & mesmers. Enough with the convoluted responses.
    4. I don't understand the roles anet has set? lol I actually laughed at this. I think that most people reading & following this topic would agree that by suggesting a heavy bruiser role shouldn't be allowed to have the mobility & stealth of a light role, it would be a good indication that someone does understand the roles of balance lol.
    5. Again, I never said the DH was better at thieving & mesmer than thieves and mesmers. I said a DH shouldn't be able to thieve and mesmer like actual thieves & mesmers. There is no cognitive dissonance in the video footage that shows a DH stealth ganking, rotating, and disengaging like a DP Thief when SB5 was only 5 init. My point and purpose of this thread is definitely valid.

    If you are seriously trying to defend DH/Rune Of Trapper, you ought to do it with some real discussion and some real points, rather than making a dozen errors while posting quotes of things I never actually said.

  • Trevor Boyer.6524Trevor Boyer.6524 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 14, 2021

    @wevh.2903 said:

    You used both your elite and sic em to kill a guy with 40% hp wich is a big missplay , you should had used only elite and then use sic em on the guardian.

    If you want to reveal the guardian you can activate a randon trap .

    Actually no I didn't. The Zephyr & Sic Em were already on CD from the previous engagement. I only used One Wolf Pack to down the Thief.

    Man, if you guys want to argue with me, at least get the details of what happened in the video correct.

    And besides that, none of this has anything to do with how Rune Of Trapper has made DH a cross class Thief/Mesmer.

  • Megametzler.5729Megametzler.5729 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I don't understand the issue. He gets stealth, moves a little (your pet starts running towards him after the 3s stealth. Did you call it back or did he stealth with a second trap?) and walks over to his close. You wait there for like 10-12 seconds. More than enough to just walk to close even without some superspeed. Thief, mes or rev would've been way faster.

    What makes him a thiefmes here? Attacking from stealth? Condi burst? General movement in stealth?

    Not saying trapper runes shouldn't be changed, because it hurts not only the game but even DH itself, but... why this thiefmes argument?

  • Trevor Boyer.6524Trevor Boyer.6524 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 14, 2021

    @Ragnar.4257 said:
    I mean, I don' t disagree that trapper rune needs to go.

    But this clip, shows you able to 1-shot a guy from ranged, and then able to face-tank a full unload of a burn-DH's burst and walk out of it just fine while the DH barely escapes with 10% HP.

    Actually, I blocked the bulk of the damage. My health was dropped that low from the initial small stack of burn that he applied lol. If anything this video not only demonstrates how ridiculous it is for a heavy bruiser to be porting around while stealthed like a thief, but also how the burn condi is wildly strong right now. Strong enough to where you can block 90% of the DH's burst, but if he can scathe you at all with a couple stacks of burn, it's still capable of ripping away 80% of your health bar.

    As far as the DH taking damage, as you can see in the video, the dude chooses to port in like that with no Focus 5 or F3 shield up during his burst. That's the fault of his own skill level. Your initial analysis doesn't take any of that into consideration. If it would have been one of our top 100 players doing that burst, the DH wouldn't have taken damage at all.

    Let me go ahead and leave this here again:

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

    If a very experienced player wields a trash meme build and beats a meta spec, it does not mean that the meme build is actually good, and it does not mean that the meta build wasn't overperforming, regardless of how bad the player was wielding it.

  • Justine.6351Justine.6351 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I watched and it looks like he just laid a couple traps as he walked/teleported away. He decided to walk away and not get killed by the ranger hunting him when you thought he was just camping that spot in stealth waiting to get blasted by long bow damage. Outplayed.

    Anet buff me :-(
    Make me good at game!

  • Trevor Boyer.6524Trevor Boyer.6524 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 14, 2021

    @Megametzler.5729 said:
    I don't understand the issue. He gets stealth, moves a little (your pet starts running towards him after the 3s stealth. Did you call it back or did he stealth with a second trap?) and walks over to his close. You wait there for like 10-12 seconds. More than enough to just walk to close even without some superspeed. Thief, mes or rev would've been way faster.

    What makes him a thiefmes here? Attacking from stealth? Condi burst? General movement in stealth?

    Not saying trapper runes shouldn't be changed, because it hurts not only the game but even DH itself, but... why this thiefmes argument?

    He stealths at 40s in the video. I waited till 47s before I realized he was gone. I know the build he was using only has 3 traps, his heal utility, procession, and maw. So after about 7s, I knew he was gone.

    Though I would not have expected him to be able to disengage me to the left or the right that far, as he had previously used one of his other traps before using that last trap for the disengage. So at most, he potentially had 2 traps to use for 4s of stealth and 4s of super speed. Not only did I not expect him to be able to disengage that far, but I was also low on health and bottomed out on resources. I couldn't afford to go running to the left or right and potentially get caught in a trap, so I had to stay where I was until he reappeared.

    So I wasn't standing there for 10-12s, it was 7s, and it would have been dumb to walk in there and attempt to chase him on a glass cannon when I had no idea where the traps were.

    Thief/Mes would have been able to travel a similar distance in those 7 seconds, with a similar level of stealth. From that exact point over to his close. About 7s is what it would take for a Thief/Mes to Shadowstep or Blink while stealthed, and either SB 5 their way over to the node or Steal through the mountain, or benefit Super Speed from the trait on Mes while stealthed. About 7s sounds just about right. Rev maybe could Shiro run and Phase through the mountain in that time, not sure about that though.

    Either way, this doesn't have anything to do with and doesn't change my point of view that a DH shouldn't be thieving & mesmering like an actual thief or mesmer.

  • Trevor Boyer.6524Trevor Boyer.6524 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Justine.6351 said:
    I watched and it looks like he just laid a couple traps as he walked/teleported away. He decided to walk away and not get killed by the ranger hunting him when you thought he was just camping that spot in stealth waiting to get blasted by long bow damage. Outplayed.

    Yup but I feel like you're missing the point here.

    Should a DH be able to have that kind of stealth ganking/stealth rotation/stealth disengage potential?

  • Math.5123Math.5123 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

    @Justine.6351 said:
    I watched and it looks like he just laid a couple traps as he walked/teleported away. He decided to walk away and not get killed by the ranger hunting him when you thought he was just camping that spot in stealth waiting to get blasted by long bow damage. Outplayed.

    Yup but I feel like you're missing the point here.

    Should a DH be able to have that kind of stealth ganking/stealth rotation/stealth disengage potential?

    If he's using his heal, elite and a utility to disengage. Yes.
    How is this any different from a scrapper stealth gyro and superspeeding away?

    ~ God Tier Guardian

  • Megametzler.5729Megametzler.5729 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 14, 2021

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

    @Megametzler.5729 said:
    I don't understand the issue. He gets stealth, moves a little (your pet starts running towards him after the 3s stealth. Did you call it back or did he stealth with a second trap?) and walks over to his close. You wait there for like 10-12 seconds. More than enough to just walk to close even without some superspeed. Thief, mes or rev would've been way faster.

    What makes him a thiefmes here? Attacking from stealth? Condi burst? General movement in stealth?

    Not saying trapper runes shouldn't be changed, because it hurts not only the game but even DH itself, but... why this thiefmes argument?

    He stealths at 40s in the video. I waited till 47s before I realized he was gone. I know the build he was using only has 3 traps, his heal utility, procession, and maw. So after about 7s, I knew he was gone.

    Though I would not have expected him to be able to disengage me to the left or the right that far, as he had previously used one of his other traps before using that last trap for the disengage. So at most, he potentially had 2 traps to use for 4s of stealth and 4s of super speed. Not only did I not expect him to be able to disengage that far, but I was also low on health and bottomed out on resources. I couldn't afford to go running to the left or right and potentially get caught in a trap, so I had to stay where I was until he reappeared.

    So I wasn't standing there for 10-12s, it was 7s, and it would have been dumb to walk in there and attempt to chase him on a glass cannon when I had no idea where the traps were.

    Thief/Mes would have been able to travel a similar distance in those 7 seconds, with a similar level of stealth. From that exact point over to his close. About 7s is what it would take for a Thief/Mes to Shadowstep or Blink while stealthed, and either SB 5 their way over to the node or Steal through the mountain, or benefit Super Speed from the trait on Mes while stealthed. About 7s sounds just about right. Rev maybe could Shiro run and Phase through the mountain in that time, not sure about that though.

    Either way, this doesn't have anything to do with and doesn't change my point of view that a DH shouldn't be thieving & mesmering like an actual thief or mesmer.

    1. I double checked: You run around there for 12 seconds until you see the tempest. You use a block about 10 seconds after he stealthed. He pops up at close after about 12 seconds.
    2. The rune give 3 seconds of stealth. You are standing in that canyon thing and he has the time to run to the sides immediately after setting the trap. Your pet starts to run towards him after 3 seconds!

    This is what stealth does, but you could have expected it.

  • Justine.6351Justine.6351 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

    @Justine.6351 said:
    I watched and it looks like he just laid a couple traps as he walked/teleported away. He decided to walk away and not get killed by the ranger hunting him when you thought he was just camping that spot in stealth waiting to get blasted by long bow damage. Outplayed.

    Yup but I feel like you're missing the point here.

    Should a DH be able to have that kind of stealth ganking/stealth rotation/stealth disengage potential?

    Sure why not? Written somewhere that they should not?

    Anet buff me :-(
    Make me good at game!

  • Kuma.1503Kuma.1503 Member ✭✭✭✭

    What I'm getting out of this is that the community hates classes with good/consistent disengage. The comparison to mesmer and thief supports this hypothesis.
    The idea that your opponent could simply choose to erase their mistakes by leaving combat at any time really grinds people's gears, and I reckon it's a big reason for the desire to nerf thief, as well as keep mesmer in the gutter.

    This is just a hypothesis though.

  • Trevor Boyer.6524Trevor Boyer.6524 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Math.5123 said:

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

    @Justine.6351 said:
    I watched and it looks like he just laid a couple traps as he walked/teleported away. He decided to walk away and not get killed by the ranger hunting him when you thought he was just camping that spot in stealth waiting to get blasted by long bow damage. Outplayed.

    Yup but I feel like you're missing the point here.

    Should a DH be able to have that kind of stealth ganking/stealth rotation/stealth disengage potential?

    If he's using his heal, elite and a utility to disengage. Yes.
    How is this any different from a scrapper stealth gyro and superspeeding away?

    @Justine.6351

    Because medium class Engineer from day 1 was designed around the idea to have a bit of stealth, team AoE stealth even. Guardian on the other hand, has been being balance for years around being a heavy bruiser spec and sometime support, that is slow and doesn't have stealth. It was given a lot of statistical parameters to make up for NOT having high mobility and stealth.

    This isn't too hard to figure out here, why it's over performing.

    @Megametzler.5729 said:

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

    @Megametzler.5729 said:
    I don't understand the issue. He gets stealth, moves a little (your pet starts running towards him after the 3s stealth. Did you call it back or did he stealth with a second trap?) and walks over to his close. You wait there for like 10-12 seconds. More than enough to just walk to close even without some superspeed. Thief, mes or rev would've been way faster.

    What makes him a thiefmes here? Attacking from stealth? Condi burst? General movement in stealth?

    Not saying trapper runes shouldn't be changed, because it hurts not only the game but even DH itself, but... why this thiefmes argument?

    He stealths at 40s in the video. I waited till 47s before I realized he was gone. I know the build he was using only has 3 traps, his heal utility, procession, and maw. So after about 7s, I knew he was gone.

    Though I would not have expected him to be able to disengage me to the left or the right that far, as he had previously used one of his other traps before using that last trap for the disengage. So at most, he potentially had 2 traps to use for 4s of stealth and 4s of super speed. Not only did I not expect him to be able to disengage that far, but I was also low on health and bottomed out on resources. I couldn't afford to go running to the left or right and potentially get caught in a trap, so I had to stay where I was until he reappeared.

    So I wasn't standing there for 10-12s, it was 7s, and it would have been dumb to walk in there and attempt to chase him on a glass cannon when I had no idea where the traps were.

    Thief/Mes would have been able to travel a similar distance in those 7 seconds, with a similar level of stealth. From that exact point over to his close. About 7s is what it would take for a Thief/Mes to Shadowstep or Blink while stealthed, and either SB 5 their way over to the node or Steal through the mountain, or benefit Super Speed from the trait on Mes while stealthed. About 7s sounds just about right. Rev maybe could Shiro run and Phase through the mountain in that time, not sure about that though.

    Either way, this doesn't have anything to do with and doesn't change my point of view that a DH shouldn't be thieving & mesmering like an actual thief or mesmer.

    1. I double checked: You run around there for 12 seconds until you see the tempest. You use a block about 10 seconds after he stealthed. He pops up at close after about 12 seconds.
    2. The rune give 3 seconds of stealth. You are standing in that canyon thing and he has the time to run to the sides immediately after setting the trap. Your pet starts to run towards him after 3 seconds!

    This is what stealth does, but you could have expected it.

    What does that have to do with the fact that he can stealth and traverse that long of a distance, regardless of the time taken, without me being able to tell where he is?

    That's the point, DHs being able to thieve & mesmer like actual thieves & mesmers.

    I don't understand the attention deficit here in this thread. Next I'm going to have someone come in here and argue with me about the colors of the outfits the characters in the video were wearing.

  • Trevor Boyer.6524Trevor Boyer.6524 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 14, 2021

    @Kuma.1503 said:
    What I'm getting out of this is that the community hates classes with good/consistent disengage. The comparison to mesmer and thief supports this hypothesis.
    The idea that your opponent could simply choose to erase their mistakes by leaving combat at any time really grinds people's gears, and I reckon it's a big reason for the desire to nerf thief, as well as keep mesmer in the gutter.

    This is just a hypothesis though.

    Nope, I think you're on the ball with that analysis.

    The only difference in my book is that, actual thieves and mesmers are glass cannon single target bursters, whereas a DH is a node bruiser AoE nuclear bomb that can down 5 people in one burst if they stand closely enough and didn't have stability to get out of maw. <- When you're talking that kind of node nuking power, I don't think this build needs to be approaching thief/mesmer like stealth/mobility levels.

  • Justine.6351Justine.6351 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

    @Math.5123 said:

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

    @Justine.6351 said:
    I watched and it looks like he just laid a couple traps as he walked/teleported away. He decided to walk away and not get killed by the ranger hunting him when you thought he was just camping that spot in stealth waiting to get blasted by long bow damage. Outplayed.

    Yup but I feel like you're missing the point here.

    Should a DH be able to have that kind of stealth ganking/stealth rotation/stealth disengage potential?

    If he's using his heal, elite and a utility to disengage. Yes.
    How is this any different from a scrapper stealth gyro and superspeeding away?

    @Justine.6351

    Because medium class Engineer from day 1 was designed around the idea to have a bit of stealth, team AoE stealth even. Guardian on the other hand, has been being balance for years around being a heavy bruiser spec and sometime support, that is slow and doesn't have stealth. It was given a lot of statistical parameters to make up for NOT having high mobility and stealth.

    This isn't too hard to figure out here, why it's over performing.

    @Megametzler.5729 said:

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

    @Megametzler.5729 said:
    I don't understand the issue. He gets stealth, moves a little (your pet starts running towards him after the 3s stealth. Did you call it back or did he stealth with a second trap?) and walks over to his close. You wait there for like 10-12 seconds. More than enough to just walk to close even without some superspeed. Thief, mes or rev would've been way faster.

    What makes him a thiefmes here? Attacking from stealth? Condi burst? General movement in stealth?

    Not saying trapper runes shouldn't be changed, because it hurts not only the game but even DH itself, but... why this thiefmes argument?

    He stealths at 40s in the video. I waited till 47s before I realized he was gone. I know the build he was using only has 3 traps, his heal utility, procession, and maw. So after about 7s, I knew he was gone.

    Though I would not have expected him to be able to disengage me to the left or the right that far, as he had previously used one of his other traps before using that last trap for the disengage. So at most, he potentially had 2 traps to use for 4s of stealth and 4s of super speed. Not only did I not expect him to be able to disengage that far, but I was also low on health and bottomed out on resources. I couldn't afford to go running to the left or right and potentially get caught in a trap, so I had to stay where I was until he reappeared.

    So I wasn't standing there for 10-12s, it was 7s, and it would have been dumb to walk in there and attempt to chase him on a glass cannon when I had no idea where the traps were.

    Thief/Mes would have been able to travel a similar distance in those 7 seconds, with a similar level of stealth. From that exact point over to his close. About 7s is what it would take for a Thief/Mes to Shadowstep or Blink while stealthed, and either SB 5 their way over to the node or Steal through the mountain, or benefit Super Speed from the trait on Mes while stealthed. About 7s sounds just about right. Rev maybe could Shiro run and Phase through the mountain in that time, not sure about that though.

    Either way, this doesn't have anything to do with and doesn't change my point of view that a DH shouldn't be thieving & mesmering like an actual thief or mesmer.

    1. I double checked: You run around there for 12 seconds until you see the tempest. You use a block about 10 seconds after he stealthed. He pops up at close after about 12 seconds.
    2. The rune give 3 seconds of stealth. You are standing in that canyon thing and he has the time to run to the sides immediately after setting the trap. Your pet starts to run towards him after 3 seconds!

    This is what stealth does, but you could have expected it.

    What does that have to do with the fact that he can stealth and traverse that long of a distance, regardless of the time taken, without me being able to tell where he is?

    That's the point, DHs being able to thieve & mesmer like actual thieves & mesmers.

    I don't understand the attention deficit here in this thread. Next I'm going to have someone come in here and argue with me about the colors of the outfits the characters in the video were wearing.

    So it's not what you are expecting when you see the dh icon and some how that is wrong? Heaven forbid people play outside the defined parameters. It's almost like anet added elite specs to break those boundries.

    Anet buff me :-(
    Make me good at game!

  • Abyssisis.3971Abyssisis.3971 Member ✭✭✭

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

    @Ragnar.4257 said:
    I mean, I don' t disagree that trapper rune needs to go.

    But this clip, shows you able to 1-shot a guy from ranged, and then able to face-tank a full unload of a burn-DH's burst and walk out of it just fine while the DH barely escapes with 10% HP.

    Actually, I blocked the bulk of the damage. My health was dropped that low from the initial small stack of burn that he applied lol. If anything this video not only demonstrates how ridiculous it is for a heavy bruiser to be porting around while stealthed like a thief, but also how the burn condi is wildly strong right now. Strong enough to where you can block 90% of the DH's burst, but if he can scathe you at all with a couple stacks of burn, it's still capable of ripping away 80% of your health bar.

    As far as the DH taking damage, as you can see in the video, the dude chooses to port in like that with no Focus 5 or F3 shield up during his burst. That's the fault of his own skill level. Your initial analysis doesn't take any of that into consideration. If it would have been one of our top 100 players doing that burst, the DH wouldn't have taken damage at all.

    Let me go ahead and leave this here again:

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

    If a very experienced player wields a trash meme build and beats a meta spec, it does not mean that the meme build is actually good, and it does not mean that the meta build wasn't overperforming, regardless of how bad the player was wielding it.

    You started blocking after taking 4 burn stacks, at which time you were hit with the unblockable spear that took you up to 6, before you were able to cleanse once the stacks started dropping off. The damage ticks from burning got to a max of 3004 damage with a few other sticks ranging from 1800-2800damage. So yes, had you not been blocking you would of been downed for sure. Lucky you. Lol

  • Dawdler.8521Dawdler.8521 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:
    If anything this video not only demonstrates how ridiculous it is for a heavy bruiser to be porting around while stealthed like a thief, but also how the burn condi is wildly strong right now.

    So uh...

    The thief is a heavy bruiser too? Because last I checked, the guardian and the thief has the same base hp. What makes the guardian so heavy outside of its fashion style?

    gaggle - /ˈɡaɡ(ə)l/ - noun
    A disorderly group of Asura.
    "The gaggle of Asura tried to agree on whether a phase-shifted thermonuclear energy matrix was sufficiently powerful for a device capable of heating bread"

  • Bazsi.2734Bazsi.2734 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @anduriell.6280 said:

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

    I actually agree with this. I think they need Rune Of The Trapper to be functional. The problem is that they are too functional to the point of overperformance right now, and they are bordering on being allowed game mechanics that only thieves and mesmers should have.

    The thing is though, they shouldn't be balancing DH around a single rune. If DH needs a very specific rune to be functional, that is a problem with DH just as much as it is the rune that is making it over perform.

    If this is the case, DH needs fixing so that it can perform without needing a rune that turns it into a cross-class thief.

    If Stealth would not stack reducing the stealth time would work on the runes.
    While stealth can stack the DH just needs to equip 5 traps it will still have enough stealth uptime.

    The whole point to this would be fixing the overperformance of DH without messing with other builds/mechanics. Some of you campaigning against stealth for 9 years now, yet the mechanic works exactly as it did during the first open beta, will you guys ever give up?

  • LucianTheAngelic.7054LucianTheAngelic.7054 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited 7:06AM

    Thematically it's fine for DH to have access to stealth.

    Gameplay-wise it's also fine for DH to have access to stealth.

    If Trapper Runes need a nerf (not saying they do), then it would be fine to just nerf them instead of continuing the absolutely inane form of balance that is "remove everything that is overperforming" which Anet continues to do over and over and over again. If the movement speed is too much from the runes, then reduce it to swiftness or reduce the duration. If the stealth is too much, reduce the duration. It's literally 3s for both, so a nerf down to 2s for both or a complete removal of the Superspeed could work to make the runes give "less thief/mesmer ability" to DH (if that's even a legitimate issue, which imo isn't).

    Though quite frankly DH with Trapper runes has never been something I feel is overpowered. Cleanse and transfers completely ruin the build. If DH is causing you too much of an issue, then play more Condi Herald which hardcounters the build and makes it kill itself. Any team with a decent support also shouldn't have an issue with this build.

  • Bazsi.2734Bazsi.2734 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @LucianTheAngelic.7054 said:
    Thematically it's fine for DH to have access to stealth.
    snip

    Guardian is the polar opposite of what thief is, so of course it's fine for them to have access to the same tools. After all they are being different by being the same. Dude what?

  • anduriell.6280anduriell.6280 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Bazsi.2734 said:

    @LucianTheAngelic.7054 said:
    Thematically it's fine for DH to have access to stealth.
    snip

    Guardian is the polar opposite of what thief is, so of course it's fine for them to have access to the same tools. After all they are being different by being the same. Dude what?

    Yeah pretty simple, DH has access to Longbow and Ranger has access to longbow. Ranger has access to stealth so for DH is fine to have access to stealth. Also DH thematically is a hunter with a single target weapon, so it should be fine for a hunter get access to some sort of stealth. Because the weapon is single target is fine also to get access to stealth as a defensive utility when it is fighting a group.

  • Cynz.9437Cynz.9437 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited 8:55AM

    @Dawdler.8521 said:

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:
    If anything this video not only demonstrates how ridiculous it is for a heavy bruiser to be porting around while stealthed like a thief, but also how the burn condi is wildly strong right now.

    So uh...

    The thief is a heavy bruiser too? Because last I checked, the guardian and the thief has the same base hp. What makes the guardian so heavy outside of its fashion style?

    Heavy implies that they wear heavy armor and have higher armor values - which guards do btw. Last time i checked armor does reduce incoming damage. Bruiser probably because guards generally have more access to damage mitigation (e.g. heals/blocks) than thieves which rely more on active defense (dodges/stealth). I think guards (DH as well) were designed more of a point holder/denier and not as roamer like thief/mesmers. The rune indeed kind of ruins the initial design. Whether it is healthy or not is personal opinion.

    Meh~

  • Trevor Boyer.6524Trevor Boyer.6524 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited 9:38AM

    @Dawdler.8521 said:

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:
    If anything this video not only demonstrates how ridiculous it is for a heavy bruiser to be porting around while stealthed like a thief, but also how the burn condi is wildly strong right now.

    So uh...

    The thief is a heavy bruiser too? Because last I checked, the guardian and the thief has the same base hp. What makes the guardian so heavy outside of its fashion style?

    Don't make petty arguments.

    As if it weren't acknowledged by the entire community that Guardian is a team fighter and can stay in the middle of 3v3s or 4v4s without needing to leave.

    As if it weren't acknowledged by the entire community that Thieves get killed easily and quickly when trying to stay in the middle of 3v3s or 4v4s.

  • Ragnar.4257Ragnar.4257 Member ✭✭✭

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

    @Dawdler.8521 said:

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:
    If anything this video not only demonstrates how ridiculous it is for a heavy bruiser to be porting around while stealthed like a thief, but also how the burn condi is wildly strong right now.

    So uh...

    The thief is a heavy bruiser too? Because last I checked, the guardian and the thief has the same base hp. What makes the guardian so heavy outside of its fashion style?

    Don't make petty arguments.

    As if it weren't acknowledged by the entire community that Guardians is a team fighter and can stay in the middle of 3v3s or 4v4s without needing to leave.

    As if it weren't acknowledged by the entire community that Thieves get killed easily and quickly when trying to stay in the middle of 3v3s or 4v4s.

    What part of a Trapper-DH's kit allows it to stay in a 4v4 any better than a thief?

    We're talking about a build that has 0 defensive utilities, and which takes 0 sustain traits. No RF, no healing meditations, no healing symbols, no heal on aegis, no shouts, no stunbreak, no stab. There's the F3 skill on 50s cooldown........ but if one 3s block on 50s CD is enough to make a build a "heavy bruiser" then so is your GS soulbeast.

  • Bazsi.2734Bazsi.2734 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Ragnar.4257 said:

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

    @Dawdler.8521 said:

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:
    If anything this video not only demonstrates how ridiculous it is for a heavy bruiser to be porting around while stealthed like a thief, but also how the burn condi is wildly strong right now.

    So uh...

    The thief is a heavy bruiser too? Because last I checked, the guardian and the thief has the same base hp. What makes the guardian so heavy outside of its fashion style?

    Don't make petty arguments.

    As if it weren't acknowledged by the entire community that Guardians is a team fighter and can stay in the middle of 3v3s or 4v4s without needing to leave.

    As if it weren't acknowledged by the entire community that Thieves get killed easily and quickly when trying to stay in the middle of 3v3s or 4v4s.

    What part of a Trapper-DH's kit allows it to stay in a 4v4 any better than a thief?

    We're talking about a build that has 0 defensive utilities, and which takes 0 sustain traits. No RF, no healing meditations, no healing symbols, no heal on aegis, no shouts, no stunbreak, no stab. There's the F3 skill on 50s cooldown........ but if one 3s block on 50s CD is enough to make a build a "heavy bruiser" then so is your GS soulbeast.

    The part where you don't actually have to be part of the teamfight, because on demand stealth.