Mirage build, endurance is different in Pvp ?

Hi guys, I'm a noob returning player, and I've never really been into Pvp but now I want to go into it.

I was looking on youtube to see some ideas for builds and I found one that interested me, a Mesmer Mirage build of "perma-evade", where you use sigil of energy and rune of the adventurer, in order to give you back your endurance during the fight to help you evade as much as you can, so you have mirage cloak active as much as possible. It is super fun in PvE and it works great.

But I just tried it in PvP and it doesn't really work because my endurance bar is now only one bar and not the usual two. So like, I have 50 endurance instead of 100 in PvP ?Why is that ? Is this like this for everyone ? Does this mean that this buid I'm trying is not viable in PvP ?

Hello, yes mirage got a very heavy nerf recently which let them have only one dodge in PVP and WVW only. You weren't able to "permaevade" before anyway, but the mirage mechanics of ambush attacks while dodging was quite annoying to deal with. And developpers came with the terrible idea of removing a dodge from mirage instead of nerfing the Infinite Horizon trait. So mirage in PVP now is arguable the weakest class out there due to them having only 1 dodge. Apart from that sigil of energy has always been and is the meta sigil choice for mirage (and nearly everyone else), and while missing your 1st dodge for the rest of the fight you still have the same amount of dodges to "permaevade", because if you do constant dodges you wouldn't need 2nd dodgebar anyway, because even with 2 dodges you'd run out of dodges pretty fast if you did them recklessly. And also bear in mind that sigil of energy in PVP is different from the superior sigil of energy in PVE, it doesn't make you instantly have the whole endurance bar, but the half of it, so thanks God permaevade has never been an option, or nobody would ever play PVP, it is already broken enough.

oh sweet summer child

@"Armen.1483" said:Hello, yes mirage got a very heavy nerf recently which let them have only one dodge in PVP and WVW only. You weren't able to "permaevade" before anyway, but the mirage mechanics of ambush attacks while dodging was quite annoying to deal with. And developpers came with the terrible idea of removing a dodge from mirage instead of nerfing the Infinite Horizon trait. So mirage in PVP now is arguable the weakest class out there due to them having only 1 dodge. Apart from that sigil of energy has always been and is the meta sigil choice for mirage (and nearly everyone else), and while missing your 1st dodge for the rest of the fight you still have the same amount of dodges to "permaevade", because if you do constant dodges you wouldn't need 2nd dodgebar anyway, because even with 2 dodges you'd run out of dodges pretty fast if you did them recklessly. And also bear in mind that sigil of energy in PVP is different from the superior sigil of energy in PVE, it doesn't make you instantly have the whole endurance bar, but the half of it, so thanks God permaevade has never been an option, or nobody would ever play PVP, it is already broken enough.

I have Mesmer 80 lvl ( actually the 1st character and what sold me to invest hours in this game) and don't see myself playing with it anytime soon. The mirage profression was so collectively hated by pvp community that at some point nerf was bound to happen. And whenever I read "broken PvP" I roll my eyes over. PvP everywhere, which includes multitude of classes, itemization and etc is broken for every individual according to their own list of views (there isn't a single game out there with PVP that isn't broken or has broken things, you either accept or not- it comes down to single fact ... human element)

I can give a list of things that are annoying to deal with, for each and every profession... but hey, life is healthier if you just stick to PVE and don't have nerves to wreck in PVP

I wonder if there might be a reason why a permanently invulnerable build might be something they'd want to prevent in PvP. Hmmmm......

"I wanted to play perma evade mirage build, but it got nerfed in pvp, anyone knows why?"

...really? :p

@Ragnar.4257 said:I wonder if there might be a reason why a permanently invulnerable build might be something they'd want to prevent in PvP. Hmmmm......

k

The reality was a bit different but whatever, I wonder why do you think sarcastic response is good... hmmm

Seriously though, Mesmer always had to do 3 things to achieve something whereas about almost any profession could do it with one or one and half (exception is Elementalist/Revenant?- well the last time I bothered to play PVP that is, a lot of changes since then), but again, mad crowd is always in the right wing.

p.s And yes I know that it could be frustrating - but it was counter-able even though it required actually some skill to do it, (people forget that Mesmers fight... well other Mesmers as well and it is duel of reflexes- I have had my share of rant moments)But that's it, just that one and now when taken away, good luck pulling anything with Mesmer now, unless you are really good (and in constant disadvantage against pretty much anything)

If nothing else comes to mind, one thing was always painfully out there, Mesmers (expect those really skilled ones with custom builds, tailored to their unique approach) had very predicable pattern.

@Senteliks.2360 said:

@"Ragnar.4257" said:I wonder if there might be a reason why a permanently invulnerable build might be something they'd want to prevent in PvP. Hmmmm......

There was no "different reality". I never suggested that Mirage "used" to be able to do this in PvP. I was explaining why it was not possible and will never be possible to do this to the same degree as you can in PvE.

People are so touchy.

Mirage damage and utility was repeatedly nerfed for more than 2 years until the devs finally admit that mirage cloak was the reason why it was still op. Instead of reworking the dodge feature they decided to remove 50 endurance from the class.

@"Paradoxoglanis.1904" said:Mirage damage and utility was repeatedly nerfed for more than 2 years until the devs finally admit that mirage cloak was the reason why it was still op. Instead of reworking the dodge feature they decided to remove 50 endurance from the class.

Well I don't agree with them here, mirage clock is actually not good, the ambush attack with infinite horizon was however very strong. Mirage cloak compared to normal dodge has less range, you can't evade backwards or sideways with good efficiency making it difficult to evade aoes and you can't dodge jump to abuse terrain either like all other classes. Mirage cloak is just a bad dodge, imo it needs a unique buff to let mirage run sideways and backwards with superspeed as fast as they run forewards. A lil tip for that here, you can and should use about face to make your character turn before dodgeing so you can run backwards faster, it just makes everything a lil more complicated considering mirage already is not in the "best" spot. Ambush attack with IH however is a whole another story. It was strong indeed, not the dodge part, but the trait and the attack itself especially if you played condi, even if it was just a separate skill it would be as strong as it was. But ofc now sadly mirage is unplayable. Power mirage was fun and balanced though, I am very sad that mirage is unplayable now. You can still play chrono, but meh.About the permaevade... Mirage has never been able to do that. Think of it like this, it is not that mirage has some phenomenal capacities to have multiple dodges, it is more of a daredevil thing. Give anyone vigor and 2 sigils of energy and they will have as many dodges as a mirage.

@Senteliks.2360 said:

@"Armen.1483" said:Hello, yes mirage got a very heavy nerf recently which let them have only one dodge in PVP and WVW only. You weren't able to "permaevade" before anyway, but the mirage mechanics of ambush attacks while dodging was quite annoying to deal with. And developpers came with the terrible idea of removing a dodge from mirage instead of nerfing the Infinite Horizon trait. So mirage in PVP now is arguable the weakest class out there due to them having only 1 dodge. Apart from that sigil of energy has always been and is the meta sigil choice for mirage (and nearly everyone else), and while missing your 1st dodge for the rest of the fight you still have the same amount of dodges to "permaevade", because if you do constant dodges you wouldn't need 2nd dodgebar anyway, because even with 2 dodges you'd run out of dodges pretty fast if you did them recklessly. And also bear in mind that sigil of energy in PVP is different from the superior sigil of energy in PVE, it doesn't make you instantly have the whole endurance bar, but the half of it, so thanks God permaevade has never been an option, or nobody would ever play PVP, it is already broken enough.

Try playing Chrono bro. You have a condi version of chrono too if that is your thing, now it somehow works, because people falsely think that thief got out of meta, and there are not many of them lately, letting mesmer an opening in PVP.

@"Sobx.1758" said:"I wanted to play perma evade mirage build, but it got nerfed in pvp, anyone knows why?"

...really? :p

@"Ragnar.4257" said:I wonder if there might be a reason why a permanently invulnerable build might be something they'd want to prevent in PvP. Hmmmm......

Lol. I'm not wondering why they would nerf this kind of build. I was wondering if there was something I was missing from PvP mechanics and endurance. I only play mesmer and so i wanted to know if endurance was working different in PvP.

Of course they would nerf an actual real perma-evade build (It wasn't really a permanant evade state that was just the name of the build, but sure maybe it was unbalanced in pvp i wouldnt know i didnt see this day), this game seems very well balanced and it is a fabulous thing indeed. They will always make new classes exciting and end up nerfing them, this has to be. Millions of people playing it and finding every possible exploits or synergy is a good test, better than any beta tester will ever be, so yeah this is bound to happen. All the time. Somethimes a buff, but straight-out-of-the-box-class usually gonna get a nerf.

It just seemed a little odd to me that their way of nerfing a build would be to remove a dodge to the class as a whole... it is a very lazy and unappealing way to adress the situation, in my eyes at least. They should have found something with a little more elegance. But hey maybe they actually did spend hours upon hours trying to think of something and they foud that the very best thing was to remove a dodge. I don't think so but who am i to judge, I'm not a dev.

You two seem to think I wanted to play a OP build even if it would givet a bad experience to others. No need to be sarcastic about it : you are both wrong. I wanted to enjoy the dynamic state of always keeping the mirage cloak as much as possible, I liked the way it played, and it changes everything without the normal endurance that every other calss should have as a baseline for the general gameplay. I wouldn't mind if they reduced the time window in wich you become in "evade" or anything like that. And the ambush thingy as others say seems to be the real problem ? I think your assumptions shows a lack of creativity and even a lack of Faith in humanity, but hey again, who am I to judge eh ? Anyways, sarcasm is also lazy and unappealing to me, espescially when it's implied contempt is based on briskly speculations

I hope your having fun with your classes and builds.

@"Armen.1483" said:Hello, yes mirage got a very heavy nerf recently which let them have only one dodge in PVP and WVW only. You weren't able to "permaevade" before anyway, but the mirage mechanics of ambush attacks while dodging was quite annoying to deal with. And developpers came with the terrible idea of removing a dodge from mirage instead of nerfing the Infinite Horizon trait. So mirage in PVP now is arguable the weakest class out there due to them having only 1 dodge. Apart from that sigil of energy has always been and is the meta sigil choice for mirage (and nearly everyone else), and while missing your 1st dodge for the rest of the fight you still have the same amount of dodges to "permaevade", because if you do constant dodges you wouldn't need 2nd dodgebar anyway, because even with 2 dodges you'd run out of dodges pretty fast if you did them recklessly. And also bear in mind that sigil of energy in PVP is different from the superior sigil of energy in PVE, it doesn't make you instantly have the whole endurance bar, but the half of it, so thanks God permaevade has never been an option, or nobody would ever play PVP, it is already broken enough.

Thank you for the explanation :) I agree with you.

Except for one thing : missing one dodge is not the same at all. It is not calculated in terms of how many dodges you have but in terms of percentage of endurance. 50% of 100 endurance is a full dodge, meaning if you swap weapons you can automatically dodge again. 50% of 50 endurance is 25, and you need 50 to dodge.

Anyways I'm still having fun with all the ways that mirage has to go into evasion... And I'll try the chronomancer soon, it sounds like so much fun to play in WvW.

Energy sigill in PvP only restores 25 Endurance. WvW/PvE restores 50.Miragecloak grants superspeed (wrong a 66% speedbuff used to be superspeed) wich helps jumping arround just as much (turn your char and you also will have max movement).Miragecloak can be activated while under the effect of cc which is way too good.You can also act while the "dodge" is going on.It is fair to say that it is superior to normal dodges by a lot an a nerf of some kind was necessary.

@phokus.8934thx for the correction as you could have seen in more recent post I didnt make the same mistake and it really doesnt matter much for the point I was trying to make.

@"Alabastrum.9361" said:Energy sigill in PvP only restores 25 Endurance. WvW/PvE restores 50.Miragecloak grants superspeed wich helps jumping arround just as much (turn your char and you also will have max movement).Miragecloak can be activated while under the effect of cc which is way too good.You can also act while the "dodge" is going on.It is fair to say that it is superior to normal dodges by a lot an a nerf of some kind was necessary.

I'm copying a comment made by Yoci.2481 on the mesmer forum :

Mirage Cloak's Speed of Sand does not cover more ground than a dodge. A dodge covers 300 units. Speed of Sand grants 66% movement speed for 0.75 seconds. Base >movement speed in combat is 210 units per second.210u/s 1.66 0.75s = 261.45 units. That's a lot less than the 300 units from a normal dodge. Speed of Sand is also affected by movement impairing conditions like chill or >cripple. In that case it covers even less ground. And it only works in the forward direction, not sideways or backwards.

Even if you lose ground on flat terrain you can easily gain ground when climbing terrain. You can even do multiple jumps during one activation. Furthermore the distance of a max range dogejump isnt too different from what you can achieve especially jumping upwards as you do not get the extra lag and inability to jump right after impact.

I think this paragraph explains how jumping is arround is better. Max movement was refering to the max movement of mirage cloak.You only realy get outclimebed and jumped by superspeed

You can also alter the direction at any time also avoiding to get stuck on a stupid structure on the ground.

I mean normaly dodging reduces control over Movement and using skills not mirage cloak. On a class like mesmer it would arguably still be extremly strong if you couldnt move at all but all the nerfs to it would be reverted.

about condi you can dodge whilest imobilised just in case that was unclear. Mashing dodge could also true link evadeframes unlike normal dodges when there were 2.

PS: Lets not forget it used to be even longer and grant superspeed which even on 0.75 sec was 315 units

@Armen.1483 said:

@"Paradoxoglanis.1904" said:Mirage damage and utility was repeatedly nerfed for more than 2 years until the devs finally admit that mirage cloak was the reason why it was still op. Instead of reworking the dodge feature they decided to remove 50 endurance from the class.

Just one thing I wanted to add. Yes, turning first lets you move away faster, BUT you then lose your ambush attack since, as I recall, they pretty much nerfed them all so that they only work when you face the opponent because people felt it was unfair that IH would let Mirage's ambush to shoot out when they are running away or otherwise not facing the opponent because you know skilled play yada yada..mirage ez spam un-killable death machine with no counter arguments of the past.

@"Alabastrum.9361" said:Energy sigill in PvP only restores 25 Endurance. WvW/PvE restores 50.Miragecloak grants superspeed wich helps jumping arround just as much (turn your char and you also will have max movement).Miragecloak can be activated while under the effect of cc which is way too good.You can also act while the "dodge" is going on.It is fair to say that it is superior to normal dodges by a lot an a nerf of some kind was necessary.

Speed of Sand hasn’t had Superspeed since 2019.

accidental post

@Moradorin.6217 said:

You actually have 1 1/2 sec to use your ambush attack you do not nees to cast it imediately.

@Guilan.5760 said:

Thank you for the explanation :) I agree with you.

Except for one thing : missing one dodge is not the same at all. It is not calculated in terms of how many dodges you have but in terms of percentage of endurance. 50% of 100 endurance is a full dodge, meaning if you swap weapons you can automatically dodge again. 50% of 50 endurance is 25, and you need 50 to dodge.

No no mate, I get your point, but it doesn't work like that and has never been. You need 50 endurance for 1 dodge and sigil of energy of pvp (wvw is still like PVE) restores only half of that no matter if you are a mirage with 1 dodge or a DD with 3, it will always restore half a dodge (25 endurance). Try using a sigil of energy on a class with 2 dodges, it will be the same. Tootltip is misleading though.

@Alabastrum.9361 said:

@"Moradorin.6217" said:

GL with that. I mean how are you going to delay something that happens automatically during mirage cloak? I know its a nice theory to delay,but I mean like I see no way ro way to keep the ambush from happening once you dodge because dodge triggers it likw it or not. So "window" is meaningless to me. What I see is when I hit dodge I get Mirage cloak so I will automatically ambush once I gain Mirage cloak provided Im facing the opponent. If Im not facing the opponent I lose the ambush, flat out. No chance to use it later its gone. (I dont play my Mesmer right now other than Home instance and crafting, but that's how I remember it working. The only way you could do an ambush later would be to hit dodge, but ohh wait only one. I have never really understood the point of the delay. It seems to be bullshit.

@Moradorin.6217You can either stow weapons right before you use cloak or you could deactivate the automatic usage of skill one by using contol + right mouse on skill 1.

also when you faced away and want to activate ambush make sure to face your target before pressing the button (especually on GS ambush otherwise it will go on a short cd aka wont be usable anymore)

@Alabastrum.9361 said:@Moradorin.6217You can either stow weapons right before you use cloak or you could deactivate the automatic usage of skill one by using contol + right mouse on skill 1.

also when you faced away and want to activate ambush make sure to face your target before pressing the button (especually on GS ambush otherwise it will go on a short cd aka wont be usable anymore)

if you deactivate auto-usage on skill 1 some of mesmer skills become bugged and dont overwrite other skills.dont ask me why, it just happens. but personally I dont have issues with using ambush when I dont want to, its not an autoattack so it doesnt cast itself

@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@Alabastrum.9361 said:@Moradorin.6217You can either stow weapons right before you use cloak or you could deactivate the automatic usage of skill one by using contol + right mouse on skill 1.

also when you faced away and want to activate ambush make sure to face your target before pressing the button (especually on GS ambush otherwise it will go on a short cd aka wont be usable anymore)

You stow before and then when you dodge you will attack anyway, unless you have auto on skill 1 off, with auto off on Mirage u will have issues.

Also when you don't face the opponent other skills like scepter 2 dont fully work (no clones no torment) as I recall which is another reason that Mirage ends up needing to backpedal a bit.

@Moradorin.6217Its kind of funny you would say that because I just tested it ingame before writing my post (I have auto on skill one on).

As clarification I mean pressing stow and roll at nearly the exact same time but stow first to avoid accidentaly stow the attack in lag.