Primordus' Rampage — Guild Wars 2 Forums
Home Lore

Primordus' Rampage

The Greyhawk.9107The Greyhawk.9107 Member ✭✭✭✭

My question is a simple one, considering that Primodus had been awake for just over 200 years before being temporarily forced into a dormant state, why is his re-awakening a much larger threat to Tyria than he was for the last 200 years awake? Does it have to do with the deaths of now three Elder Dragons, the Ascension of Aurene, is Jormag pulling even more bull kitten on us somehow, or something completely unknown the cause?

Hate Is Fuel.

Comments

  • Stephen.6312Stephen.6312 Member ✭✭✭
    edited January 21, 2021

    @The Greyhawk.9107 said:
    My question is a simple one, considering that Primodus had been awake for just over 200 years before being temporarily forced into a dormant state, why is his re-awakening a much larger threat to Tyria than he was for the last 200 years awake? Does it have to do with the deaths of now three Elder Dragons, the Ascension of Aurene, is Jormag pulling even more bull kitten on us somehow, or something completely unknown the cause?

    Good question. My impressions are much like your own. I struggle to see Primordus as much more of a threat now than he was before.

    The way the PC is conversing with others, no one seems to have much of a clue about how everything works...which makes it hard to understand why anyone would take the threat of Primordus any more seriously now than they did before.

    One closing thought, though, is that Prim's forces seem to show more interest in surface civilizations than before. Maybe the little disruption that they're causing is making members of the Five Playable Races nervous because of the reports of Prim's destruction brought to them by the remaining dwarves. Most of the more powerful destroyers that we fight are known for their successes against the dwarves. If they can do that to a race that transformed itself into a "living weapon", I guess they can do a lot more to other races that have not.

    Want to delve into some theories about the lore and story of GW2? Check these posts out: The Search For Answers P1 and The Search For Answers P2.

  • Hannelore.8153Hannelore.8153 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 21, 2021

    Basically its because the Dwarves have held him back for most of that time.

    Lore-wise, very few Destroyers have made it to the surface, and its repeatedly stated in the Personal Story to be cause for alarm when they do. But slowly over the years we have seen more and more Destroyers, culminating with them flooding the entire maps of Ember Bay and Draconis Mons prior to putting Primordus to sleep. This is even commented on several times in those campaigns.

    Primordus was always a serious threat, it was just never expected the Dwarves would lose their battle. The amount of Destroyers in Tyria was formerly very small compared to all the Branded, Icebrood and Risen.

    Hannah | Daisuki[SUKI] Founder, Ehmry Bay, NA | 23 charas, 18k hours, 29k AP | ♀♥♀
    Mains Mariyuuna/Auramancer, Yukianna/Quickbrand (PvE) & Terakura/Healbreaker(WvW) aka Anvil Rock Silver Raider[SUKI]
    No need to be best, only good and kind.

  • Randulf.7614Randulf.7614 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 21, 2021

    Yeah I assumed it was a combo of rising power levels from the death of other dragons abd the failure of the dwarves to keep him in check.

    It’s possible the events in ls3 ep5 angered him considerably and on his stirring back awake again is turning his attention more seriously to the surface now he sees the threat we have become.

    What sleep is here? What dreams there are in the unctuous coiling of the snakes mortal shuffling. weapon in my hand. My hand the arcing deathblow at the end of all things. The horror. The horror. I embrace it. . .

  • The Greyhawk.9107The Greyhawk.9107 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Hannelore.8153 said:
    Basically its because the Dwarves have held him back for most of that time.

    Lore-wise, very few Destroyers have made it to the surface, and its repeatedly stated in the Personal Story to be cause for alarm when they do. But slowly over the years we have seen more and more Destroyers, culminating with them flooding the entire maps of Ember Bay and Draconis Mons prior to putting Primordus to sleep. This is even commented on several times in those campaigns.

    Primordus was always a serious threat, it was just never expected the Dwarves would lose their battle. The amount of Destroyers in Tyria was formerly very small compared to all the Branded, Icebrood and Risen.

    It certainly seemed that way for the longest time, though I don't think anyone from either the player base of the characters genuinely thought that the dwarves were going to hold out for forever, but Anet randomly tossing in a bunch of dwarves for the first time (other than Ogden and the guy thats only a head) seems to put a wrench in that, or at least it feels like it does. There's also the change in tactics, focusing on targets that are comparatively more heavily populated.

    Hate Is Fuel.

  • Fueki.4753Fueki.4753 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Before, his destryoers had no resonance with Primordus.
    He just made them and they went destroying.

    But now, after sucking up Kralkatorrik's magic, he becomes stronger the more his minions destroy.
    That's why the destruction is much worse now.

    However, since this magic also doubled as Kralkatorrik's weakness (as it made him weak to his own crystal magic), Fire should be one of Primordus' weaknesses now (and ice one of Jormag's, as Jormag utilizes this magic as well).
    But I can see Arenanet forgetting about the downside, despite its importance in season 4.

  • EdwinLi.1284EdwinLi.1284 Member ✭✭✭
    edited January 21, 2021

    @The Greyhawk.9107 said:

    @Hannelore.8153 said:
    Basically its because the Dwarves have held him back for most of that time.

    Lore-wise, very few Destroyers have made it to the surface, and its repeatedly stated in the Personal Story to be cause for alarm when they do. But slowly over the years we have seen more and more Destroyers, culminating with them flooding the entire maps of Ember Bay and Draconis Mons prior to putting Primordus to sleep. This is even commented on several times in those campaigns.

    Primordus was always a serious threat, it was just never expected the Dwarves would lose their battle. The amount of Destroyers in Tyria was formerly very small compared to all the Branded, Icebrood and Risen.

    It certainly seemed that way for the longest time, though I don't think anyone from either the player base of the characters genuinely thought that the dwarves were going to hold out for forever, but Anet randomly tossing in a bunch of dwarves for the first time (other than Ogden and the guy thats only a head) seems to put a wrench in that, or at least it feels like it does. There's also the change in tactics, focusing on targets that are comparatively more heavily populated.

    from the first Champion trailer, there may have been a bit more story missions involving the dwarf's return before that specific Story mission but they may have been scrapped due to internal issues with finishing those content in the planned schedule.

    A good amount of Champion's story feels like it is missing due to the current state of our world today from how work places must work under certain limits just to keep working.

  • Sajuuk Khar.1509Sajuuk Khar.1509 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 21, 2021

    @EdwinLi.1284 said:
    from the first Champion trailer, there may have been a bit more story missions involving the dwarf's return before that specific Story mission but they may have been scrapped due to internal issues with finishing those content in the planned schedule.

    There's really nothing in the first trailer that suggests that. We see the dwarves in Ebonhawk, but the dwarven allies can show up there, and in any DRM for that matter.

    @Fueki.4753 said:
    Before, his destryoers had no resonance with Primordus.
    He just made them and they went destroying.

    But now, after sucking up Kralkatorrik's magic, he becomes stronger the more his minions destroy.
    That's why the destruction is much worse now.

    However, since this magic also doubled as Kralkatorrik's weakness (as it made him weak to his own crystal magic), Fire should be one of Primordus' weaknesses now (and ice one of Jormag's, as Jormag utilizes this magic as well).
    But I can see Arenanet forgetting about the downside, despite its importance in season 4.

    That's not really how the magic absorption works. Kralk didn't get Zhaitan's weakness of overly specialized minions, or Mordremoth's weakness of mind.

  • Fueki.4753Fueki.4753 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:
    That's not really how the magic absorption works. Kralk didn't get Zhaitan's weakness of overly specialized minions, or Mordremoth's weakness of mind.

    Kralkatorrik didn't use mind magic or overly specialized minions, so there is way of knowing now, whether he might have had these weaknesses, if he had used them.
    However, the downside I mentioned is an inherent part of the minion resonance magic that has been confirmed to be used by both Jormag and Primordus.

  • Tyson.5160Tyson.5160 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Fueki.4753 said:

    @Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:
    That's not really how the magic absorption works. Kralk didn't get Zhaitan's weakness of overly specialized minions, or Mordremoth's weakness of mind.

    Kralkatorrik didn't use mind magic or overly specialized minions, so there is way of knowing now, whether he might have had these weaknesses, if he had used them.
    However, the downside I mentioned is an inherent part of the minion resonance magic that has been confirmed to be used by both Jormag and Primordus.

    Kralkatorrik did have the mind domain though.

    PA Announcer: Imagine! Communications technology enhanced by the unique hive-mind abilities of Kralkatorrik's minions.
    Taimi: What? Their hive mind?
    Taimi: I wonder if that ability is something Kralkatorrik absorbed after Mordremoth's death. Some piece of its magical nature.

    The resonance weakness that Crystal dragon had, was a weakness only to Kralkatorrik. Primordus appears to have taken a trait of Crystal magic domain and twisted it to his benefit.

  • The Greyhawk.9107The Greyhawk.9107 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @EdwinLi.1284 said:
    from the first Champion trailer, there may have been a bit more story missions involving the dwarf's return before that specific Story mission but they may have been scrapped due to internal issues with finishing those content in the planned schedule.

    A good amount of Champion's story feels like it is missing due to the current state of our world today from how work places must work under certain limits just to keep working.

    Feels like a hell of a lot more than just Champions got scraped, more like half of IBS, but that's an aside.

    Hate Is Fuel.

  • draxynnic.3719draxynnic.3719 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Personally, I'm wondering if part of the reason why Primordus is being more aggressive is that he's feeling more threatened.

    Balthazar nearly killed him, after all. Furthermore, he probably senses that Jormag has just had a big power spike, and if the Jormag-Primordus rivalry has been going on for a while (and the two apparently fought during the last Dragonrise, so that does appear to be the case), Primordus sensing a sharp increase in Jormag's power might lead him to desperately grab as much as he could to ensure he gets the upper hand.

    Makes me wonder who actually started the rivalry. If Jormag's been actively seeking Primordus' death, and Jormag has a track record of manipulating mortals to try to achieve that, then... well, Primordus's behaviour would be consistent with a being that's been attacked so many times that his instinct is to find a deep hole to hide in and then push any potential threats as far away as possible.

  • Teratus.2859Teratus.2859 Member ✭✭✭✭

    There are a few factors in play.

    First of all the Dwarves as others have said have been keeping him occupied underground for a very very long time and until recently have managed to stalemate the majority of his minions over that time.
    However they are now starting to loose this battle as Primordus has become significantly more powerful.

    Secondly.. well I just said it but Primordus has become significantly more powerful due to the death's of Zhaitan, Mordrmeoth and Kralkatorrik and has modified himself with some of their abilities, the most notable being this new power seemingly from Kralkatorrik aka the feedback loop with his minions.
    The more his minions burn the stronger Primordus becomes and the stronger Primordus become the stronger and more rabid his minions become..
    We also know Jormag appears to have this same ability now with the Frozen.. the more it freezes the stronger it gets as well.

    So knowing that Primordus becomes stronger by having his minions burn and destroy.. this explains their new appearances and behaviour on the surface.
    The Dwarves as said are now loosing the battle with Primordus so they too are being pushed back to the surface to join forces with the anti-dragon factions that seek to end Primordus.

    So to answer your question as simply as possible.. Why is his second awakening this cycle so much more of a threat?

    Well it's because he is far more powerful than he was 200 years ago and has new abilities that he didn't have 200 years ago, he is now winning the fight against the only faction that was standing in his way and he gets even more powerful based on how much destruction and burninating the countryside he does.
    Props if you get that reference XD

  • Hypnowulf.7403Hypnowulf.7403 Member ✭✭✭

    It's always interesting how neurotypicals seem to support and worship psychopathy. I mean, if that weren't the case we wouldn't have the Judge Rotenberg Center so I don't have to prove that... I do find it vexing, however, that they never move beyond it.

    I mean, even though I want to see Primordus redeemed—I'd be the first to notice that Primordus is flaying people and burning them alive. I'd also be the first to notice that he's targeting the most vulnerable settlements to cause as much suffering and death as possible. That was covered fairly well in one DRM. We also know that Jormag is by far the less powerful of the two as that's been stated repeatedly as well.

    I mean, what Jormag did at Lake Doric was obviously out of desperation—no denying that—but they didn't actually kill anyone. And we saw at the end of Jormag Rising that they can free people from ice without harming them. If Primordus had taken Lake Doric, there would've been many lives lost as there have been in other DRMs.

    Yet Primordus is the innocent one—scared of Jormag? I mean, really Draxynnic? Really? You can take being a poster-child for the neurotypical worship of psychopathy too far. Again, I want Primordus to be redeemed but to claim that they're the victim here is insanity.

  • I think the deaths of three Elder Dragons is the exact cause (that, and a swap in writers who often overlook or change a lot of lore predating the latest two seasons of the release), since this would mean Primordus has fewer rivalries (2-or-3 versus original 5) and also has more magic.

    And as Randulf said, there would be fewer dwarves around now, but also a lot of destroyers from that 200 year buildup. So Primordus has a much better starting point this time than he did 200 years ago, giving him a similar starting point as Zhaitan who woke up with a ton of powerful magical artifacts and an entire army right under his wings, and as such was the most devastating of the Elder Dragons to Central Tyria despite his magic having been drained while asleep.

    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.

  • EdwinLi.1284EdwinLi.1284 Member ✭✭✭
    edited January 22, 2021

    @draxynnic.3719 said:
    Personally, I'm wondering if part of the reason why Primordus is being more aggressive is that he's feeling more threatened.

    Balthazar nearly killed him, after all. Furthermore, he probably senses that Jormag has just had a big power spike, and if the Jormag-Primordus rivalry has been going on for a while (and the two apparently fought during the last Dragonrise, so that does appear to be the case), Primordus sensing a sharp increase in Jormag's power might lead him to desperately grab as much as he could to ensure he gets the upper hand.

    Makes me wonder who actually started the rivalry. If Jormag's been actively seeking Primordus' death, and Jormag has a track record of manipulating mortals to try to achieve that, then... well, Primordus's behaviour would be consistent with a being that's been attacked so many times that his instinct is to find a deep hole to hide in and then push any potential threats as far away as possible.

    We never really had much insight into the mind of Primordus from the beginning anyways. Hard to tell if he does this out of personal fear or simply because he just craves destruction for the sake of it. He is probably the one Elder Dragon we encounter that we don't have much understand about in a personality level compared to other Elder Dragons we encountered so far where we get some kind of understanding about them with each encounter.

    -Zhaitan wanted the entire world to be Undead because life between being dead and alive was his ideal world where it is free from the fears of dying and living.

    -Jormag is all about preserving the world in Ice to put it in a eternal stagnation so nothing will ever change and no one can ever harm each other when frozen.

    -Mordremoth was just "My mind is the only one that matters" so his ideal world was one where everything is linked together under one mind and one body being his mind and body.

    -Kralkatorrik was just going crazy because he consumed way too much magical energy to a point his mind split into two personalites being one side is his original personality probably before Elder Dragons became Elder Dragons and the other being a chaotic destruction seeking maniac.

  • draxynnic.3719draxynnic.3719 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @EdwinLi.1284 said:

    @draxynnic.3719 said:
    Personally, I'm wondering if part of the reason why Primordus is being more aggressive is that he's feeling more threatened.

    Balthazar nearly killed him, after all. Furthermore, he probably senses that Jormag has just had a big power spike, and if the Jormag-Primordus rivalry has been going on for a while (and the two apparently fought during the last Dragonrise, so that does appear to be the case), Primordus sensing a sharp increase in Jormag's power might lead him to desperately grab as much as he could to ensure he gets the upper hand.

    Makes me wonder who actually started the rivalry. If Jormag's been actively seeking Primordus' death, and Jormag has a track record of manipulating mortals to try to achieve that, then... well, Primordus's behaviour would be consistent with a being that's been attacked so many times that his instinct is to find a deep hole to hide in and then push any potential threats as far away as possible.

    We never really had much insight into the mind of Primordus from the beginning anyways. Hard to tell if he does this out of personal fear or simply because he just craves destruction for the sake of it. He is probably the one Elder Dragon we encounter that we don't have much understand about in a personality level compared to other Elder Dragons we encountered so far where we get some kind of understanding about them with each encounter.

    -Zhaitan wanted the entire world to be Undead because life between being dead and alive was his ideal world where it is free from the fears of dying and living.

    -Jormag is all about preserving the world in Ice to put it in a eternal stagnation so nothing will ever change and no one can ever harm each other when frozen.

    -Mordremoth was just "My mind is the only one that matters" so his ideal world was one where everything is linked together under one mind and one body being his mind and body.

    -Kralkatorrik was just going crazy because he consumed way too much magical energy to a point his mind split into two personalites being one side is his original personality probably before Elder Dragons became Elder Dragons and the other being a chaotic destruction seeking maniac.

    Yeah, that's pretty much what I was thinking. By Elder Dragon standards, Jormag is relatively extroverted and downright chatty. Zhaitan and Mordremoth mostly spoke through minions (apart from sylvari). Kralkatorrik and Primordus, on the other hand, have been pretty quiet - our main insights into Kralkatorrik's personality and motivations required someone jumping into his mind, and we haven't had the opportunity to do that with Primordus.

    Now, don't get me wrong - Primordus' behaviour is definitely also perfectly consistent with just being a monster. But it is common behaviour among animals that feel threatened to lash out at anything nearby, which can become permanent behaviour if they're sufficiently traumatised to push them to permanent paranoia. Humans under these circumstances don't necessarily do so physically, but might push people away through rude and antisocial language and behaviour to stop anyone from getting close enough to hurt them again. The Elder Dragon equivalent of this would likely be sending minions out to attack everything within reach indiscriminately.

    The interesting thing here is that the second DRM in this release has added additional weight to the 'Braham has some link to Destroyers' theory, so we might get some insight into Primordus' motivations through that vector.

  • The Greyhawk.9107The Greyhawk.9107 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Hypnowulf.7403 said:
    It's always interesting how neurotypicals seem to support and worship psychopathy. I mean, if that weren't the case we wouldn't have the Judge Rotenberg Center so I don't have to prove that... I do find it vexing, however, that they never move beyond it.

    I mean, even though I want to see Primordus redeemed—I'd be the first to notice that Primordus is flaying people and burning them alive. I'd also be the first to notice that he's targeting the most vulnerable settlements to cause as much suffering and death as possible. That was covered fairly well in one DRM. We also know that Jormag is by far the less powerful of the two as that's been stated repeatedly as well.

    I mean, what Jormag did at Lake Doric was obviously out of desperation—no denying that—but they didn't actually kill anyone. And we saw at the end of Jormag Rising that they can free people from ice without harming them. If Primordus had taken Lake Doric, there would've been many lives lost as there have been in other DRMs.

    Yet Primordus is the innocent one—scared of Jormag? I mean, really Draxynnic? Really? You can take being a poster-child for the neurotypical worship of psychopathy too far. Again, I want Primordus to be redeemed but to claim that they're the victim here is insanity.

    And you take your constant use of a video game forum to espouse your hatred of so called neurotypicals your own socio-political ideology too far. Where do you come off calling Drax or anyone else here "worshipers of psychopathy" when you've been cheering for a Dragon's whose main power is manipulation for the last couple of years? How do you even know that anyone here is a so called "neurotypical"? Despite your attributing that term to me in a past disagreement the fact is that I myself am not a neurotypical, so I don't think you're able to objectively tell if Drax or anyone else here is or isn't.

    Cite your sources, where has it been stated that Jormag is significantly less powerful than Primordus, much less "by far less powerful"? How do you know that Jormag attacking Lake Doric was "out of desperation"? And where does Drax claim that Primordus is an innocent victim? I saw neither of those words used by anyone else here.

    Hate Is Fuel.

  • Poormany.4507Poormany.4507 Member ✭✭✭
    edited January 24, 2021

    @draxynnic.3719 said:

    Yeah, that's pretty much what I was thinking. By Elder Dragon standards, Jormag is relatively extroverted and downright chatty. Zhaitan and Mordremoth mostly spoke through minions (apart from sylvari). Kralkatorrik and Primordus, on the other hand, have been pretty quiet - our main insights into Kralkatorrik's personality and motivations required someone jumping into his mind, and we haven't had the opportunity to do that with Primordus.

    Now, don't get me wrong - Primordus' behaviour is definitely also perfectly consistent with just being a monster. But it is common behaviour among animals that feel threatened to lash out at anything nearby, which can become permanent behaviour if they're sufficiently traumatised to push them to permanent paranoia. Humans under these circumstances don't necessarily do so physically, but might push people away through rude and antisocial language and behaviour to stop anyone from getting close enough to hurt them again. The Elder Dragon equivalent of this would likely be sending minions out to attack everything within reach indiscriminately.

    I do wonder though if in the near future Primordus will be able to communicate with us, and/or start using tactics, as it is mentioned in game that Primordus has recently processed Mordremoth's magic to a further extent. We've already seen Jormag and Primordus gaining their new "hive mind" type abilities to absorb power through their minions from the dead elder dragons, so I wonder if Primordus gained some form of intelligence from the newly processed Mordremoth magic and not just being a mindless raging monster anymore. This could also tie in with the "Braham is becoming Primordus' champion" theory floating around if that's the case.

  • draxynnic.3719draxynnic.3719 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Poormany.4507 said:

    @draxynnic.3719 said:

    Yeah, that's pretty much what I was thinking. By Elder Dragon standards, Jormag is relatively extroverted and downright chatty. Zhaitan and Mordremoth mostly spoke through minions (apart from sylvari). Kralkatorrik and Primordus, on the other hand, have been pretty quiet - our main insights into Kralkatorrik's personality and motivations required someone jumping into his mind, and we haven't had the opportunity to do that with Primordus.

    Now, don't get me wrong - Primordus' behaviour is definitely also perfectly consistent with just being a monster. But it is common behaviour among animals that feel threatened to lash out at anything nearby, which can become permanent behaviour if they're sufficiently traumatised to push them to permanent paranoia. Humans under these circumstances don't necessarily do so physically, but might push people away through rude and antisocial language and behaviour to stop anyone from getting close enough to hurt them again. The Elder Dragon equivalent of this would likely be sending minions out to attack everything within reach indiscriminately.

    I do wonder though if in the near future Primordus will be able to communicate with us, and/or start using tactics, as it is mentioned in game that Primordus has recently processed Mordremoth's magic to a further extent. We've already seen Jormag and Primordus gaining their new "hive mind" type abilities to absorb power through their minions from the dead elder dragons, so I wonder if Primordus gained some form of intelligence from the newly processed Mordremoth magic and not just being a mindless raging monster anymore. This could also tie in with the "Braham is becoming Primordus' champion" theory floating around if that's the case.

    Yeah - as I indicated, I've been wondering if this is the purpose of the 'Braham can sense destroyers' plot thread. It's possible that at some point he'll be able to hear Primordus' thoughts and give us an indication of what his actual goals and motivations are.

    That said, I would say that in light of the revelation of the feedback loop, there are signs of possible strategic thinking behind Primordus' moves. Attacking Rata Sum might have been triggered by Ryland's presence - if we assume that Primordus has been paying attention to the asura at all, preventing an alliance between the asura and Jormag might be something he'd consider worth trying. After that, the chapter 1 DRMs are mostly focused around picking out relatively soft targets to destroy (and therefore harvest power from) while diverting possible defensive forces by feinting at more valuable targets (something I've done myself in strategy games, albeit usually with more of a 'wear the enemy down' strategy than an 'empower myself' strategy). In chapter 2, he starts hitting at harder targets, suggesting that he's built up enough power that he feels confident enough to do so.

    Or he could just be blindly lashing out at whatever's within his minion-enhanced reach. Or something in between.

  • Teratus.2859Teratus.2859 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 24, 2021

    Dunno why some of you guys want Primordus redeemed, if anything I want him to be exactly what we expect him to be.. a being of pure destruction and evil.
    We already had this redemption not it's fault thing with Kralkatorrik, no need to do that again specially with Primordus.

    We've already got Jormag playing the "im not bad really" card while clearly being a bad dragon.
    For Primordus I want to be dealing with essentially a pure evil, living nuclear bomb who's only agenda is to watch the world burn.
    That to me makes him far, far more dangerous than any other enemy we've had in Gw2, including the other Elder Dragons and I want to see that represented in the game with us feeling almost completely useless and outclassed compared to him.
    We came close to something like that with Kralkatorrik but in the end it was just setback after setback.

    With Primordus they need to go all the way.. like Smaug in the hobbit when he just flies off and destroys lake town while the heros can do nothing but watch the carnage completely helpless to do anything.. I hope we get something like that with Primordus where we see the cost of our failure through the carnage and destruction he wages on the world and the regret that we once spared his life really kicks us in the gut.
    I want Dragon's Watch to be brought to the absolute brink of giving up and accepting the end of the world due to witnessing the sheer power of Primordus.

  • Fueki.4753Fueki.4753 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Teratus.2859 said:
    Dunno why some of you guys want Primordus redeemed, if anything I want him to be exactly what we expect him to be.. a being of pure destruction and evil.

    Can we really say he's evil though?
    For all we know, Primordus may just be a mindless beast that's closer to a natural disaster than anything else.
    I really would call such a thing evil.

  • Teratus.2859Teratus.2859 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Fueki.4753 said:

    @Teratus.2859 said:
    Dunno why some of you guys want Primordus redeemed, if anything I want him to be exactly what we expect him to be.. a being of pure destruction and evil.

    Can we really say he's evil though?
    For all we know, Primordus may just be a mindless beast that's closer to a natural disaster than anything else.
    I really would call such a thing evil.

    Well good and evil are ultimately perspectives.. some would consider a natural disaster evil, others wouldn't.
    But I don't think Primordus is mindless.. while we don't know the origins of the Elder Dragons I do think they were once normal Dragons and they became Elder's via similar means as Aurine did.

    Kralkatorrik after all mentioned a mother and we know Jormag and Primordus are siblings and since we know dragons reproduce solo in this universe it suggests that they too have or had a parent at one point.
    While it doesn't rule out that they were born with their power it does leave room to speculate that Elder Dragons are something they became and that there was something else before them which they potentially usurped to become what we know them to be today.

    Unfortunately this kind of lore would date back tens of thousands of years.. possibly millions and so far as we know there is nothing on Tyria that old aside from the Elder Dragons themselves and I doubt Jormag would share that kind of information which could give us ideas on how to replace it without another Aurine.

  • The Greyhawk.9107The Greyhawk.9107 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Teratus.2859 said:
    Dunno why some of you guys want Primordus redeemed, if anything I want him to be exactly what we expect him to be.. a being of pure destruction and evil.
    We already had this redemption not it's fault thing with Kralkatorrik, no need to do that again specially with Primordus.

    We've already got Jormag playing the "im not bad really" card while clearly being a bad dragon.
    For Primordus I want to be dealing with essentially a pure evil, living nuclear bomb who's only agenda is to watch the world burn.
    That to me makes him far, far more dangerous than any other enemy we've had in Gw2, including the other Elder Dragons and I want to see that represented in the game with us feeling almost completely useless and outclassed compared to him.
    We came close to something like that with Kralkatorrik but in the end it was just setback after setback.

    With Primordus they need to go all the way.. like Smaug in the hobbit when he just flies off and destroys lake town while the heros can do nothing but watch the carnage completely helpless to do anything.. I hope we get something like that with Primordus where we see the cost of our failure through the carnage and destruction he wages on the world and the regret that we once spared his life really kicks us in the gut.
    I want Dragon's Watch to be brought to the absolute brink of giving up and accepting the end of the world due to witnessing the sheer power of Primordus.

    Really only one person brought up "Redeeming" Primordus in this thread, and rather randomly at that. I don't think its something anyone else expects from what is quite literally the embodiment of destruction. Even if that somehow ended up being the case I can't imagine the current iteration of Arenanet being able to write that in a way that was believable.

    Hate Is Fuel.

  • EdwinLi.1284EdwinLi.1284 Member ✭✭✭
    edited January 24, 2021

    @Teratus.2859 said:
    Dunno why some of you guys want Primordus redeemed, if anything I want him to be exactly what we expect him to be.. a being of pure destruction and evil.
    We already had this redemption not it's fault thing with Kralkatorrik, no need to do that again specially with Primordus.

    We've already got Jormag playing the "im not bad really" card while clearly being a bad dragon.
    For Primordus I want to be dealing with essentially a pure evil, living nuclear bomb who's only agenda is to watch the world burn.
    That to me makes him far, far more dangerous than any other enemy we've had in Gw2, including the other Elder Dragons and I want to see that represented in the game with us feeling almost completely useless and outclassed compared to him.
    We came close to something like that with Kralkatorrik but in the end it was just setback after setback.

    With Primordus they need to go all the way.. like Smaug in the hobbit when he just flies off and destroys lake town while the heros can do nothing but watch the carnage completely helpless to do anything.. I hope we get something like that with Primordus where we see the cost of our failure through the carnage and destruction he wages on the world and the regret that we once spared his life really kicks us in the gut.
    I want Dragon's Watch to be brought to the absolute brink of giving up and accepting the end of the world due to witnessing the sheer power of Primordus.

    I never said anything about redeeming Primordus. I am talking about how little we understand Primordus' mindset beyond just actions of destroying lands to a point only rocks, lava, and magma remains.

    He is the only Elder Dragon we currently encountered that has little insight into his own mind and thinking but we know for certain he does have a mind to act out his actions. Primordus is for certain not doing this out of desire for destruction alone because if so then he will not seek to create a world where all life are basically Destroyers and filled with lava.

    There are certainly many speculations about why Primordus maybe doing this such as he can't survive outside of lava and magma so a world filled with Magma and lava is probably the only world he can be free from his prison of being stuck underground.

    Understanding what Primordus is thinking is the last piece we need to understand his reasoning for why he seeks to recreate the world as a lava filled world.

  • Fueki.4753Fueki.4753 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @EdwinLi.1284 said:
    Primordus is for certain not doing this out of desire for destruction alone because if so then he will not seek to create a world where all life are basically Destroyers and filled with lava.

    Yet we have not seen Primordus doing anything other than destroying and creating Destroyers to destroy things.
    As far as we know, Primordus has not corrupted anything yet.
    If you are thinking of the magma Stone Summit Dwarves, that transformation is not something Primordus did.
    They accidentally corrupted themselves with Primordus' essence in an attempt to stay alive, rather than becoming stone.

  • EdwinLi.1284EdwinLi.1284 Member ✭✭✭

    @Fueki.4753 said:

    @EdwinLi.1284 said:
    Primordus is for certain not doing this out of desire for destruction alone because if so then he will not seek to create a world where all life are basically Destroyers and filled with lava.

    Yet we have not seen Primordus doing anything other than destroying and creating Destroyers to destroy things.
    As far as we know, Primordus has not corrupted anything yet.
    If you are thinking of the magma Stone Summit Dwarves, that transformation is not something Primordus did.
    They accidentally corrupted themselves with Primordus' essence in an attempt to stay alive, rather than becoming stone.

    I never once thought about the Stone Summit Dwarves because we just never seen them again after that one mission. So I avoid talking about them until further development for them. Worst case Anet may have completely forgotten about the Stone Summit since we have never seen them again after that one mission.

    Now back on topic:

    There is just too much to be certain yet what Primordus goals are. We know his actions for creating destruction but we yet to look into his mind into why.

    It is easier to judge a being through actions alone but harder to understand them only through actions.

  • Teratus.2859Teratus.2859 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @The Greyhawk.9107 said:

    @Teratus.2859 said:
    Dunno why some of you guys want Primordus redeemed, if anything I want him to be exactly what we expect him to be.. a being of pure destruction and evil.
    We already had this redemption not it's fault thing with Kralkatorrik, no need to do that again specially with Primordus.

    We've already got Jormag playing the "im not bad really" card while clearly being a bad dragon.
    For Primordus I want to be dealing with essentially a pure evil, living nuclear bomb who's only agenda is to watch the world burn.
    That to me makes him far, far more dangerous than any other enemy we've had in Gw2, including the other Elder Dragons and I want to see that represented in the game with us feeling almost completely useless and outclassed compared to him.
    We came close to something like that with Kralkatorrik but in the end it was just setback after setback.

    With Primordus they need to go all the way.. like Smaug in the hobbit when he just flies off and destroys lake town while the heros can do nothing but watch the carnage completely helpless to do anything.. I hope we get something like that with Primordus where we see the cost of our failure through the carnage and destruction he wages on the world and the regret that we once spared his life really kicks us in the gut.
    I want Dragon's Watch to be brought to the absolute brink of giving up and accepting the end of the world due to witnessing the sheer power of Primordus.

    Really only one person brought up "Redeeming" Primordus in this thread, and rather randomly at that. I don't think its something anyone else expects from what is quite literally the embodiment of destruction. Even if that somehow ended up being the case I can't imagine the current iteration of Arenanet being able to write that in a way that was believable.

    It's not the first time i've seen the subject raised.

  • The Greyhawk.9107The Greyhawk.9107 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Teratus.2859 said:

    @The Greyhawk.9107 said:

    @Teratus.2859 said:
    Dunno why some of you guys want Primordus redeemed, if anything I want him to be exactly what we expect him to be.. a being of pure destruction and evil.
    We already had this redemption not it's fault thing with Kralkatorrik, no need to do that again specially with Primordus.

    We've already got Jormag playing the "im not bad really" card while clearly being a bad dragon.
    For Primordus I want to be dealing with essentially a pure evil, living nuclear bomb who's only agenda is to watch the world burn.
    That to me makes him far, far more dangerous than any other enemy we've had in Gw2, including the other Elder Dragons and I want to see that represented in the game with us feeling almost completely useless and outclassed compared to him.
    We came close to something like that with Kralkatorrik but in the end it was just setback after setback.

    With Primordus they need to go all the way.. like Smaug in the hobbit when he just flies off and destroys lake town while the heros can do nothing but watch the carnage completely helpless to do anything.. I hope we get something like that with Primordus where we see the cost of our failure through the carnage and destruction he wages on the world and the regret that we once spared his life really kicks us in the gut.
    I want Dragon's Watch to be brought to the absolute brink of giving up and accepting the end of the world due to witnessing the sheer power of Primordus.

    Really only one person brought up "Redeeming" Primordus in this thread, and rather randomly at that. I don't think its something anyone else expects from what is quite literally the embodiment of destruction. Even if that somehow ended up being the case I can't imagine the current iteration of Arenanet being able to write that in a way that was believable.

    It's not the first time i've seen the subject raised.

    shrugs Can't say I've seen it anywhere else either.

    Hate Is Fuel.

  • draxynnic.3719draxynnic.3719 Member ✭✭✭✭

    In my case, it's not really a case of "wanting" anything, so much as being open to the possibility. Just as I was open to the possibility of Jormag being genuine about having had change of approach around the start of the Icebrood Saga, and it was when they started tripping red flags in their dialogue that I concluded that Jormag just regards us as tools rather than allies.

    (I note that I do think that Jormag genuinely seeks to preserve things, in their own twisted way... but keep in mind that Zhaitan's obsession also seemed to be a world in which nothing ever truly died, but the 'eternal life' that Zhaitan offered is one that few would choose for themselves. The Frozen have also disproven Jormag's claim that they only give what is asked for, however Faustian the bargain - I'm pretty sure that those civilians did NOT ask to be frozen indefinitely.)

    In Primordus' case... we don't know much, largely because Primordus is the Elder Dragon that interacts least with mortals. Even most Destroyers, despite names like "Destroyer Troll" and "Destroyer Harpy", are not actually corrupted regular creatures, but constructs given life by Primordus' power (and in some case, being able to reproduce by laying eggs, something that dragon minions of other dragons seem to generally be unable to do unless they were corrupted while pregnant). Which means we know zilch about Primordus' actual motivations, just his actions.

    Technically speaking, we only have Jormag's word that Primordus identifies as male. Given that line about being two sides of a coin that can't see each other directly, Jormag might not even know.

    Applying some meta-thinking to the topic, though, the hints that Braham might have some connection to the Destroyers provides an avenue through which that might change. That's their opportunity to spring a twist that changes our interpretation of Primordus, if they were so inclined. And it does have to be noted that the saga is focused on Jormag, not Primordus - it's Jormag who's been corrupting the spirits and the charr, and Jormag with whom one of the major NPCs has a prophecy wherein they must slay Jormag or be slain by Jormag. Primordus' role, thus far, has pretty much just been to be a third party that provides a justification for cooperation with Jormag in an 'enemy of my enemy' fashion. It's possible that ArenaNet is planning a twist whereby it turns out that Primordus is the one that just wants to be left alone, but which has been driven to aggression by a justified (albeit possibly exacerbated by his own version of Torment) paranoia. Primordus has probably never had a champion that he didn't create before, and if that IS what's happening to Braham, it might end up being an eye-opener for both of them.

    It's also just as possible that Primordus is exactly the monster he looks like, and we're going to end up rushing to Cantha looking for more dragons that can help control the release of magic from further Elder Dragon deaths before the world explodes. I'm not really invested in either, and unlike some people I'd happily switch theories as evidence comes in to support one over the other. Just making observations and speculations.

  • Teratus.2859Teratus.2859 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 25, 2021

    @draxynnic.3719 said:
    In Primordus' case... we don't know much, largely because Primordus is the Elder Dragon that interacts least with mortals. Even most Destroyers, despite names like "Destroyer Troll" and "Destroyer Harpy", are not actually corrupted regular creatures, but constructs given life by Primordus' power (and in some case, being able to reproduce by laying eggs, something that dragon minions of other dragons seem to generally be unable to do unless they were corrupted while pregnant). Which means we know zilch about Primordus' actual motivations, just his actions.

    The only interest Primordus has shown in both games regarding mortals is exterminating them wherever he can find them.
    It's why theories about redemption or misunderstanding him kinda of fall flat.. if he just wanted to be left alone he would avoid conflict and bury himself deep underground where he would be safe and isolated.
    He has not done this though, he has consistently attacked and killed at every opportunity, driven multiple races out of their homes with his constant attacks and lived up to his reputation as a being of pure destruction.
    Primordus is in fact the one dragon that has been somewhat recorded in history by other races who survived his last awakening.. most notably the Dwarfs who to this day consider Destroyers and Primordus as their mortal enemies because of the legends that still existed about him and his Destroyers from his previous awakening.

    Technically speaking, we only have Jormag's word that Primordus identifies as male. Given that line about being two sides of a coin that can't see each other directly, Jormag might not even know.

    A misleading line tbh, It's not so much that they "can't" see each other directly it's that Jormag is avoiding such an encounter for it's own self preservation.
    Jormag and Primordus have physically clashed before and Jormag was injured during that encounter.
    The Shards of Jormag scattered about the Drizzlewood Coast are splinters of Jormag's body and blood that were broken off by Primordus when the two dragons fought each other during their last awakening.
    Knowing that information it's a safe bet that Jormag's motives against Primordus now are more to do with it being afraid to face Primordus again without a big advantage or it could be as simple as revenge.
    Either way Jormag is hell bent on killing it's brother.

    Applying some meta-thinking to the topic, though, the hints that Braham might have some connection to the Destroyers provides an avenue through which that might change. That's their opportunity to spring a twist that changes our interpretation of Primordus, _if they were so inclined.

    We don't know much about this yet but so far aside from being able to sense destroyers there's no apparent connection between Braham and Primordus.. but there is between Braham and Jormag.
    What we do know is that Braham is some kind of Norn of Prophecy and linked to several Spirits of the Wild, it's possible that since Jormag has corrupted a couple of them (3 that Braham has directly associated with) that Brahams ability to sense destroyers maybe something that Jormag is influencing somehow.
    Jormag's dedication to corrupting Owl (another spirit Braham is associated with) as part of some plan Jormag and Ryland are working on and the fact that Braham was specifically called out by an Icebrood who said "this doesn't concern you Eirsson" could also suggest that this is another of Jormag's plots to manipulate Braham, the one who's been prophesied to kill Jormag into being a weapon Jormag can use against it's brother.

    At the moment it's too soon to know for sure yet, we just don't have enough to go on so it's all just speculation.

  • Fueki.4753Fueki.4753 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 25, 2021

    @Teratus.2859 said:
    What we do know is that Braham is some kind of Norn of Prophecy and linked to several Spirits of the Wild, it's possible that since Jormag has corrupted a couple of them (3 that Braham has directly associated with) that Brahams ability to sense destroyers maybe something that Jormag is influencing somehow.

    Braham's ability to sense Destroyer should come from his connection to Wolf.
    Wolf has the ability to give mortals the ability to track down dragon minions.
    Unless Arenanet pulls something completely unnecessary, it's the very same ability that Wolf blessed the human heroes with in GW1, so that they could track down the Nornbear, which was a minion of Jormag.

  • draxynnic.3719draxynnic.3719 Member ✭✭✭✭

    As I've explained in previous posts, Primordus's tendency to attack everything within reach could be a learned behaviour. Animals or people that have been hurt multiple times can get to a point where they paranoiacally lash out at anything that gets too close in a kind of pre-emptive retaliation to push away anything that might hurt it again. Primordus' behaviour makes sense when viewed through this lens, and in the context that he has minions. Just that instead of claws or words, his weapons are the destroyers.

    We have one dragon who's good at manipulating mortals, and one dragon that appears to view all mortals as enemies (more so than other Elder Dragons). The first dragon wants to destroy the second, while the opinion of the second regarding the first is unknown. These two statements... might be connected.

    Or Primordus might genuinely be the monster he's being made out to be. Like we've both said now... speculation.

    Regarding Braham - my reaction last chapter was "don't be silly, Braham's a follower of Wolf who only recently gained the ability to transform, he's probably using the same Wolf-granted tracking ability that we used to track Svanir in Eye of the North". Now, though, we're getting strong hints that Braham has the destroyers "calling to" him.

    While I don't think we can rule out the idea that Jormag instilled Braham with some destroyer-sensing ability while he was communing with the corrupted Spirits, I also don't think it's the most likely explanation. First, because the term "calling to" suggests that there's more going on that Braham simply sensing their presence - the choice of description implies communication, albeit on a very primitive level, and that Braham is somehow linked to them rather than simply feeling their proximity. There's also the thing about Braham being prophesied to be able to kill Jormag, something that has otherwise been suggested to require Primordus' power - the two dragons are each other's weaknesses, after all. If this is true and they genuinely are each other's weakness rather than a simple "fire melts ice, ice extinguishes fire" thing, than that implies that to be able to kill Jormag as the prophecy demands, Braham must have access to some of Primordus' power.

    Where could he have picked that up? Well, we don't know where the power of that jotun scroll came from, but we do know that a lot of ancient magic involved tapping directly into the energies of the dragons. It's possible that the jotun harnessed some of Primordus' power to make that scroll. Now, most of that power went into the bow, of course, but if just some of it transferred to Braham instead as he was empowering the bow, that would explain why he seems to have some connection to the Destroyers now.

    And raises the question of why Braham isn't suffering the effects of dragon corruption, but that might be why Primordus doesn't normally corrupt the living - his form of corruption might be much less potent at twisting living creatures to serve his will than the other dragons.

    At this stage, I think this is the best explanation for what's going on with Braham. I wouldn't say that I'm 100% sure - probably more like a little over 60% sure - but it does seem more consistent with the evidence than the other explanations thus far.

    And if it turns out that Braham becomes the first mortal to ever communicate with Primordus... that could well be a game-changer. Or it might not. It's probably still more likely, given the precedents of the other Elder Dragons, that Primordus' destructiveness is just his form of the insanity that the other Elder Dragons (except Aurene) seem to suffer from, along with mortals who absorb too much magic. But at the moment we're just speculating, and it is a line of speculation that remains consistent with observations.

  • Teratus.2859Teratus.2859 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 25, 2021

    @Fueki.4753 said:

    @Teratus.2859 said:
    What we do know is that Braham is some kind of Norn of Prophecy and linked to several Spirits of the Wild, it's possible that since Jormag has corrupted a couple of them (3 that Braham has directly associated with) that Brahams ability to sense destroyers maybe something that Jormag is influencing somehow.

    Braham's ability to sense Destroyer should come from his connection to Wolf.
    Wolf has the ability to give mortals the ability to track down dragon minions.
    Unless Arenanet pulls something completely unnecessary, it's the very same ability that Wolf blessed the human heroes with in GW1, so that they could track down the Nornbear, which was a minion of Jormag.

    That is the other popular theory too yeah, although nothing in game has been raised so far to prove it other than the link to Volfen Blessing in Gw1.
    There's also one thing that kind of disproves it as well.. Volfen Blessing was used in Gw1 to track Svanir.. a minion of Jormag as you said.
    If this power Braham has does come from wolf then he should be able to sense all Dragon Minions, not exclusively Destroyers which so far is all he can sense.
    It's also curious how only Braham has this power so far and no other Norn attuned to Wolf have been revealed who also possess it..
    I would think if it is a gift from Wolf other Norn would have it as well not only Braham.

    Then again Anet could also write it in as "he's the norn of prophecy so he has special powers" and have that explain it which would be a pretty mediocre excuse to give him that ability tbh
    Either way I guess we'll find out in the next few episodes ^^

    @draxynnic.3719 said:
    As I've explained in previous posts, Primordus's tendency to attack everything within reach could be a learned behaviour. Animals or people that have been hurt multiple times can get to a point where they paranoiacally lash out at anything that gets too close in a kind of pre-emptive retaliation to push away anything that might hurt it again. Primordus' behaviour makes sense when viewed through this lens, and in the context that he has minions. Just that instead of claws or words, his weapons are the destroyers.

    We have one dragon who's good at manipulating mortals, and one dragon that appears to view all mortals as enemies (more so than other Elder Dragons). The first dragon wants to destroy the second, while the opinion of the second regarding the first is unknown. These two statements... might be connected.

    Or Primordus might genuinely be the monster he's being made out to be. Like we've both said now... speculation.

    I don't think Primordus views mortals as enemies, if anything he probably thinks of them as irrelevant, weak and pathetic life forms compared to himself.. although that attitude could definitely have changed in recent years as he's most certainly aware that 3 beings as powerful as himself have been killed by them.
    It's quite likely he does consider us a threat now.. although I doubt he did before the events of Gw2.

    I don't think it's learned behaviour though.. nothing seems to suggest that so far and the only times we know of where Primordus has been in a dangerous situation was previously in a physical conflict with Jormag in which he came out the victor and back in living world 3 where Balthazar was trying to kill him using Jormag's magic.
    That would put Jormag as the priority threat to Primordus both now and thousands of years in the past and who knows how long those two have been trying to kill one another really.. and who started that conflict, we can all assume Jormag will put the blame on Primordus.. but that is one opinion we can definitely not trust.

    The best I can think of that would make your theory make sense to me is that Primordus targets mortals because either he associates them with Jormag's minions and cannot tell the different (which I strongly doubt as it would imply a lack of intelligence) or he does it preemptively as a means to deny Jormag potential minions in the future.. which does make sense tbh.

    For the record i'm not saying you're wrong and just dismissing your theory, I just think it's very unlikely that's all.

    Regarding Braham - my reaction last chapter was "don't be silly, Braham's a follower of Wolf who only recently gained the ability to transform, he's probably using the same Wolf-granted tracking ability that we used to track Svanir in Eye of the North". Now, though, we're getting strong hints that Braham has the destroyers "calling to" him.

    If they were calling to him though I would think they wouldn't attack him.. but then again they have been described recently as "Rabid".
    Plus there's the fact that Primordus doesn't corrupt living beings.. and the fact he doesn't associate with mortals.
    There's a lot with this particular story element which doesn't make much sense atm.. and it's hard to buy into these theories that Primordus wants Braham as a champion or servant.
    Jormag may have changed recently taking on Ryland and it could be possible that Primordus may have changed in a similar way too but so far there's too just little info about to put much stock in those kinds of theories.
    I really can't wait for Anet to finally reveal this lol it's one of the more interesting elements in the story so far.

    While I don't think we can rule out the idea that Jormag instilled Braham with some destroyer-sensing ability while he was communing with the corrupted Spirits, I also don't think it's the most likely explanation. First, because the term "calling to" suggests that there's more going on that Braham simply sensing their presence - the choice of description implies communication, albeit on a very primitive level, and that Braham is somehow linked to them rather than simply feeling their proximity. There's also the thing about Braham being prophesied to be able to kill Jormag, something that has otherwise been suggested to require Primordus' power - the two dragons are each other's weaknesses, after all. If this is true and they genuinely are each other's weakness rather than a simple "fire melts ice, ice extinguishes fire" thing, than that implies that to be able to kill Jormag as the prophecy demands, Braham must have access to some of Primordus' power.

    It's a long shot theory admittedly, but it would be a fun twist.
    Manipulating is what Jormag does best and it would explain why Jormag is so interested in corrupting more spirits.. but yeah im not 100% sold on it either, was just something I put together based on available info and events that could explain a few things.

    I don't know if Braham will require Primordus power though not in the way some expect him to "possess" it.. there are other means of hurting Jormag as we saw with the Jotun Scroll and I expect the same is true for Primordus as well.
    That said we also got that little comment from the Norn in the Thunderhead Keep Mission about not understanding prophecies until they have been fulfilled.

    Braham's involvement in Jormag's death could be extremely literal as in Braham actively kills Jormag in combat or it could be something extremely different such as a key decision or action that Braham takes results in the death of Jormag.
    For an example of that think about how Logan fled the battle with Kralkatorrik to protect the Queen and Glint and Snaff died in the battle to which he was blamed for years as his decision to leave potentially caused those events to take place.

    Braham could do something similar such as Killng Ryland which could distract Jormag long enough for Primordus to deliver a deathblow.. which is a scenario I've suggested in another thread as well as a potential way IBS could end and set us up with Primordus and Sea Dragon for End of Dragons.
    That would technically fulfil the prophecy as Braham's actions directly lead to the death of Jormag.
    This is ultimately the problem with Prophecies and why they are typically so vague and hard to understand.. it's also what makes them a lot of fun to play with in games too ^^

    Where could he have picked that up? Well, we don't know where the power of that jotun scroll came from, but we do know that a lot of ancient magic involved tapping directly into the energies of the dragons. It's possible that the jotun harnessed some of Primordus' power to make that scroll. Now, most of that power went into the bow, of course, but if just some of it transferred to Braham instead as he was empowering the bow, that would explain why he seems to have some connection to the Destroyers now.

    I have also put forward that exact theory in the past as well, this is another of those unanswered questions that Anet has yet to go back and explain but I still think there could be merit in this theory and it would explain a lot if it were true.

  • draxynnic.3719draxynnic.3719 Member ✭✭✭✭

    We know that Primordus and Jormag have fought in a previous Dragonrise - that's the fluff behind there being pieces of Jormag's crystallised blood in Drizzlewood. So I think it's plausible that the "Jormag tries to get mortals to kill Primordus" thing has happened more than once, enough for Primordus to have decided that mortals are too dangerous to have around.

    In that context, I don't think Primordus would be deliberately seeking Braham as a champion - however, if Braham has picked up Primordus-power from the scroll, it's plausible that a connections has formed accidentally, and if Primordus has never had a link with a sapient mortal before, doing so might be enough for him to reconsider his attitude towards mortals somewhat.

    Or, y'know, not. It definitely falls within the region of wild speculation.