So, about Hardened Leather.... — Guild Wars 2 Forums

So, about Hardened Leather....

Are there any plans to re-balance the value of this particular mat? Because right now, Hardened Leather is many times more expensive than other similar mats of the same tier (such as Ancient Wood, Gossamer or Orichalcum). It's gotten to the point where crafting anything that uses Hardened Leather ends up being overly expensive, especially when leveling crafts like Tailor, where you can't even sell the end results for half the cost involved in crafting them.

I'd really like a proper response from an ANet official please, because I want to know if there are actually any plans, or if it's even being looked at, at all.

<13

Comments

  • Ayumi Spender.1082Ayumi Spender.1082 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I dread on when I get enough cobs to do the heavy lunatic outfit as... I don't think I have enough of this leather to finish the collection for that backpack.

  • If you guys cared that much about crafting prices, you should have picked the medium set from the achievement rewards, then you wouldn't be in this situation.

  • Strider Pj.2193Strider Pj.2193 Member ✭✭✭✭

    It hasn't hit its 1 year high yet. In fact, it's about 35 ish percent below its previous high. (32 s then to about 22s now.)

  • @Coldtart.4785 said:
    Only person that mentioned a set they need to craft said heavy. You need tons of leather regardless of armour type because of the insignia.

    But if you picked Medium, it would have costed less, no?

  • Coldtart.4785Coldtart.4785 Member ✭✭✭

    The implication is that they did pick medium but hardened leather still dominates the cost for the other two weights.

  • Tenrai Senshi.2017Tenrai Senshi.2017 Member ✭✭✭
    edited October 24, 2017

    @Strider Pj.2193 said:
    It hasn't hit its 1 year high yet. In fact, it's about 35 ish percent below its previous high. (32 s then to about 22s now.)

    It's still too high though. I would understand a higher cost for mats like lodestones or T6 monster materials (like powerful blood, etc), but Hardened leather should fall into the same realm as Orichalcum, Gossamer and Ancient Wood as far as typical crafting mats go. And yet it costs over 2000% more than some of those latter three. If they just reduced the amount used in recipes, the demand would go down and the price might normalize.

    On the flip side, it could probably be said that Gossamer, Ori and Ancient Wood are now too cheap. I think their overabundance in the new expac areas sunk their prices quite badly.

  • Strider Pj.2193Strider Pj.2193 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Tenrai Senshi.2017 said:

    @Strider Pj.2193 said:
    It hasn't hit its 1 year high yet. In fact, it's about 35 ish percent below its previous high. (32 s then to about 22s now.)

    It's still too high though. I would understand a higher cost for mats like lodestones or T6 monster materials (like powerful blood, etc), but Hardened leather should fall into the same realm as Orichalcum, Gossamer and Ancient Wood as far as typical crafting mats go. And yet it costs over 2000% more than the most expensive off those latter three. If they just reduced the amount used in recipes, the demand would go down and the price might normalize.

    On the flip side, it could probably be said that Gossamer, Ori and Ancient Wood are now too cheap. I think their overabundance in the new expac areas sunk their prices quite badly.

    The same things happened to charged lodestones. Their price has been dropping also as more legendary options become available (and other reasons)

    I personally will likely sell my stacks of leather knowing that in 5-6 months, the price will drop.

    I think maybe one other factor that is increasing the price right now is the marks for WvW armor which, based on the time gating of skirmish tickets, has impacted the prices on a few mats. I think it's more of a perfect storm right now.

  • OriOri.8724OriOri.8724 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Its actually in a much better spot than it was last year, but I agree its still at a huge imbalance with the other T6 mats.

    However, I have to give props to Anet, they have been very slow, very very slow, in addressing leather, but they have done it in a healthy way compared to their hammer approach with HoT launch. I'd much rather they be a little (or excessively for leather) slow, but adjust it in a healthy way (notice the price never swung from one extreme to the other after HoT launch, its been coming down slowly ), and that's what they have been doing.

    I expect that they'll introduce a few more small things with leather in the next few patches that will help bring it down some more. But I still think the healthiest solution overall would be to reduce the amount required for crafting entirely, even if they have to nerf some sources of it to do that.

    Eyyyy I unlocked signatures

  • I know someone who bought stacks a few weks ago when mats nosedived. This looks profitable.

  • @Ayumi Spender.1082 said:
    I dread on when I get enough cobs to do the heavy lunatic outfit as... I don't think I have enough of this leather to finish the collection for that backpack.

    This tho.
    For real.

  • @AegisRunestone.8672 said:

    @Oglaf.1074 said:
    Also maybe not make a SINGLE INSIGNIA use 10 FRIGGIN' SQUARES, Anet.

    This is my thought. The introduction of cloth patches and requiring to have an unreasonable amount of leather is disheartening. I think if the recipes were modified (say 5 Cured Hardened Squares instead of 10, or even lower), it would make it less expensive to make Ascended and even Exotic armor. My guildmates have told me that, in the long run, Ascended is cheaper to make than Exotic right now due to the cloth patches. That's really, IMO, sad.

    Leather shouldn't be more expensive than its respective tiers of other mats. Right now, the rare, named, exotic drops (like Nikka's Leggings for example) are incredibility cheaper than a non-named Exotic Beserker's Leggings. If the recipes, especially for the cloth patches, or if the cloth patches were removed entirely, this would lower the cost, crafting wise and buying wise, for Exotics alone.

    I think that specific patch hit most peoplecas a surprise. What was the rationale behind introducing patches?

  • @Omar Aschi Popp.7496 said:

    @AegisRunestone.8672 said:

    @Oglaf.1074 said:
    Also maybe not make a SINGLE INSIGNIA use 10 FRIGGIN' SQUARES, Anet.

    This is my thought. The introduction of cloth patches and requiring to have an unreasonable amount of leather is disheartening. I think if the recipes were modified (say 5 Cured Hardened Squares instead of 10, or even lower), it would make it less expensive to make Ascended and even Exotic armor. My guildmates have told me that, in the long run, Ascended is cheaper to make than Exotic right now due to the cloth patches. That's really, IMO, sad.

    Leather shouldn't be more expensive than its respective tiers of other mats. Right now, the rare, named, exotic drops (like Nikka's Leggings for example) are incredibility cheaper than a non-named Exotic Beserker's Leggings. If the recipes, especially for the cloth patches, or if the cloth patches were removed entirely, this would lower the cost, crafting wise and buying wise, for Exotics alone.

    I think that specific patch hit most peoplecas a surprise. What was the rationale behind introducing patches?

    I wish I knew.

  • Ayrilana.1396Ayrilana.1396 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 24, 2017

    If players feel the price is too high then they can collectively do the leather farm in Lake Doric to bring it down. If they feel like that is not worth the effort then the existing price is justified as the additional cost will be for the benefit of not having to farm them.

  • Oglaf.1074Oglaf.1074 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 24, 2017

    @Coldtart.4785 said:
    The implication is that they did pick medium but hardened leather still dominates the cost for the other two weights.

    Exactly. It is all about the insignias.

    The medium is just extra stupid for demanding leather on top of that.

    Please Anet give us a hide Chest Armour-option. Tattoo-clad Norns everywhere beg of you.

  • Sojourner.4621Sojourner.4621 Member ✭✭✭

    @AegisRunestone.8672 said:

    @Omar Aschi Popp.7496 said:

    @AegisRunestone.8672 said:

    @Oglaf.1074 said:
    Also maybe not make a SINGLE INSIGNIA use 10 FRIGGIN' SQUARES, Anet.

    This is my thought. The introduction of cloth patches and requiring to have an unreasonable amount of leather is disheartening. I think if the recipes were modified (say 5 Cured Hardened Squares instead of 10, or even lower), it would make it less expensive to make Ascended and even Exotic armor. My guildmates have told me that, in the long run, Ascended is cheaper to make than Exotic right now due to the cloth patches. That's really, IMO, sad.

    Leather shouldn't be more expensive than its respective tiers of other mats. Right now, the rare, named, exotic drops (like Nikka's Leggings for example) are incredibility cheaper than a non-named Exotic Beserker's Leggings. If the recipes, especially for the cloth patches, or if the cloth patches were removed entirely, this would lower the cost, crafting wise and buying wise, for Exotics alone.

    I think that specific patch hit most peoplecas a surprise. What was the rationale behind introducing patches?

    I wish I knew.

    They weren't happy about the cost of leather vs cloth, but it sorta backfired and full swung the other way. It used to be that silk was around 7s per scrap, gossamer was a lot higher as well, though not as high as silk. Cotton and a few other lower tier mats were also well over the cost of even silk. In the mean time Hardened leather, a t6 mat, was sitting around 6-8c per piece, and several of the other tiers you couldn't even list because they were so common and under-utilized, resulting in "1c" default listing prices, lower than the value of just selling to a merchant.

    That was not the only issue though: The Raid meta has also had a role in the increase in leather costs, as Druid/cDPS Ranger has occupied top positions in raiding groups basically since HoT launch, increasing the demand and thereby the price of crafted medium. (The fact that HoT stat sets are basically only craftable, and viper has been the meta have compounded the issue further) The Raid meta also influences a lot of other costs as well (cost of Commander recipes and in particular light pants vs other stat sets for instance).

  • Ayrilana.1396Ayrilana.1396 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Shaaba.5672 said:

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:
    If players feel the price is too high then they can collectively do the leather farm in Lake Doric to bring it down. If they feel like that is not worth the effort then the existing price is justified as the additional cost will be for the benefit of not having to farm them.

    While I agree with you in theory (that market prices should be driven by players), I can't agree in this particular instance. There should be no difference between the cloth and the leather prices at similar tiers. The difference in price reflects specific design choices of Anet that make little sense. I have no problem with leather/cloth being more expensive than ore/wood as they are acquired differently. Cloth and leather are acquired in the same way (leather farm aside) and are main ingredients in a basic commodity (armor) so I feel that they should roughly mirror each other in market value. I wouldn't think the high price of leather is an issue if cloth were similarly priced, but that's obviously not the case and thus why I think there is an underlying problem with the market. (obviously I wouldn't like the high price of leather, but if cloth and leather were equal, I'd understand that it was intentional)

    I find tiers meaningless. Just because they are in the same tier does not mean that they should be the same price. For that matter, if someone were to argue that all materials within a tier should be around the same price, one could just as easily argue that the prices of the cheaper ones should increase just as one could argue that the more expensive ones should decrease.

    Leather and cloth are not the same since leather has other uses while gossamer does not.

  • Y'all should have been playing a few months back before Anet bumped the t6 salvage rate on the bloodstone warped hides to 50% or more. Seriously. You also have to take into account all of the guildhall upgrades that require leather.

    I'm not saying that the price of leather is in a great spot, I am saying that it is a much better than it was not long ago. Seriously. Count your blessings that leather is in as good a spot as it currently is.

  • Ayrilana.1396Ayrilana.1396 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 24, 2017

    @Tenrai Senshi.2017 said:

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:

    I find tiers meaningless. Just because they are in the same tier does not mean that they should be the same price. For that matter, if someone were to argue that all materials within a tier should be around the same price, one could just as easily argue that the prices of the cheaper ones should increase just as one could argue that the more expensive ones should decrease.

    Leather and cloth are not the same since leather has other uses while gossamer does not.

    No-one's saying they should be exactly the same, but when there's a thousand percent or more difference in price, then there is a problem. It creates a large amount of disparity between the costs of certain crafts vs other crafts, which isn't healthy for the game. In some cases, it can even render crafting as a whole useless, after all, who is going to spend tons of gold crafting armor at a tailor or leatherworks, when they could simply buy it for a mere fraction of the cost?

    The price of mats has implications beyond simple economics. It can even make or break certain features of the game. This is why it needs to be amended.

    Also, the entire reason the price inflated so much to begin with was because ANet added gossamer patches to recipes for armor crafts. It was their attempt to increase the value of leather, which at the time was very cheap, but it completely overshot in that regard. So, leather never used to have as much use, that use was artificially introduced and the consequences were quite severe. Now I think it's time to tone down its use a bit to bring things more into balance.

    Well considering most of the leather is used in insignias, I’d say that large disparity you’re describing is a bit exaggerated. If players want the price to be lower, they can farm them in Lake Doric.

    Medium exotic armor is only 8G more than heavy and 11G more than light. Not much of a disparity and especially since there are so many other alternatives to crafting in order to obtain exotic armor.

  • TheOrlyFactor.8341TheOrlyFactor.8341 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 25, 2017

    @Ayumi Spender.1082 said:
    I dread on when I get enough cobs to do the heavy lunatic outfit as... I don't think I have enough of this leather to finish the collection for that backpack.

    Same. I only crafted the heavy boots for the collection because I had all of the other heavy pieces unlocked and I wasn't going to do that crazy JP for a boot unlock. The price for the hardened leather sections I needed (9) cost me almost 3 gold. I don't see myself doing any additional armor crafting until I can find a more reliable means of getting those leather sections or until the price drops considerably.

    Which sucks because I vastly prefer crafting/unlocking armor for skins versus weapon skins.

    Asura fanatic.
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  • Leablo.2651Leablo.2651 Member ✭✭✭

    @Shaaba.5672 said:
    You do realize that gossamer has less uses solely because Anet says so. Two scraps per bolt, four bolts per patch - 8 scraps total. Three leather scraps per square, ten squares per patch - 30 total. That's nonsensical. I'd love for insignias to be completely balanced across the materials used - maybe add a metal thread embroidery so we use all three core components of an armor weight. With that, of course, even out the recipes so that that leather isn't used so disproportionally.

    I agree with you in principle, but not with your proposed solution. I think gossamer (currently at 32c) needs to be brought up a lot more than leather needs to be brought down, but I'd be satisfied to meet halfway. If forced to choose I'd rather that both be at 20s than for both to be 32c.

  • OriOri.8724OriOri.8724 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Leablo.2651 said:

    @Shaaba.5672 said:
    You do realize that gossamer has less uses solely because Anet says so. Two scraps per bolt, four bolts per patch - 8 scraps total. Three leather scraps per square, ten squares per patch - 30 total. That's nonsensical. I'd love for insignias to be completely balanced across the materials used - maybe add a metal thread embroidery so we use all three core components of an armor weight. With that, of course, even out the recipes so that that leather isn't used so disproportionally.

    I agree with you in principle, but not with your proposed solution. I think gossamer (currently at 32c) needs to be brought up a lot more than leather needs to be brought down, but I'd be satisfied to meet halfway. If forced to choose I'd rather that both be at 20s than for both to be 32c.

    While it may take a while due to the huge surplus of gossamer on the market right now, lowering leather prices enough will encourage people to craft more in general, which will raise demand for gossamer slightly. In the (albeit very very very) long run, gossamer prices will increase a little bit if leather goes down.

    Eyyyy I unlocked signatures

  • Rauderi.8706Rauderi.8706 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Omar Aschi Popp.7496 said:
    I think that specific patch hit most people as a surprise. What was the rationale behind introducing patches?

    Before then, leather, especially T5, was vendor stock. The 4:1 refinement rate and the move to patches as part of insignia was done to drain leather, and it feels like Hardened got caught in the crossfire.

    Many alts! Handle it!

    "A condescending answer might as well not be an answer at all."
    -Eloc Freidon.5692

  • Kichwas.7152Kichwas.7152 Member ✭✭✭

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:
    If players feel the price is too high then they can collectively do the leather farm in Lake Doric to bring it down.

    Basically this.

    I think Anet's "plan to address the price of Hardened Leather" was to add a huge camp of centaurs to Lake Dorric. Hardened leather rains down on you in there...

    It's a seriously boring mindless farm spot... but there it is... Hardened leather "should" be more common than any other mat now... but that farming spot is so dull it keeps people from doing it enough.

    That said... I've been there twice, about an hour of time in, and got, if I recall right; 37 leather from it.

    • Basically I'm going to do it just enough to regear several characters over to vipers... and then forget about it.

    Just say no to butt-flaps.

  • Tenrai Senshi.2017Tenrai Senshi.2017 Member ✭✭✭
    edited October 25, 2017

    @Kaltyn of Torbins Deep.2946 said:
    Y'all should have been playing a few months back before Anet bumped the t6 salvage rate on the bloodstone warped hides to 50% or more. Seriously. You also have to take into account all of the guildhall upgrades that require leather.

    I'm not saying that the price of leather is in a great spot, I am saying that it is a much better than it was not long ago. Seriously. Count your blessings that leather is in as good a spot as it currently is.

    Hardened Leather was not the only material added to guild hall requirements though. Some upgrades require hundreds, thousands or even tens of thousands of other mats, like Gossamer, Mithril, Ori, etc, yet those still remain cheap. The reason I doubt whether guild halls had too much of an impact is because guild upgrades can be spread across many players, so while one upgrade might require 100 hardened leather squares, each guild member may only need to contribute 1 or 2. But if that player wants to craft a pair of pants for themselves, then they'd be spending 10 at least. Also, once a hall is upgraded, it is permanent and requires no additional resources thereafter, for an indefinite period of time. If the impact of guild halls was as significant as you suggest, then wouldn't we also then see a much higher Gossamer price, for example?

    That being said, I don't exactly have the numbers myself, so I can't say for certain how much of an impact it actually had. I still think Gossamer Patches are the main antagonist with regards to Hardened Leather Prices though, because crafting one full set of armor can cost as much leather as a guild upgrade as far as Hardened Leather goes.

  • Ohoni.6057Ohoni.6057 Member ✭✭✭✭

    They rarely bother to balance mats of supposedly equivalent value, but they really should. All items within the same tier should be roughly equivalent in value most of the time, within a reasonable margin.

  • FrizzFreston.5290FrizzFreston.5290 Member ✭✭✭✭

    ArenaNet and Balance have a long lived love/hate relationship. By now I rather expect things to feel completely off. This is in regards to Skill balance as well as economic balance.

    Other than that, I rarely dabble in the TP, unless it's really needed. Crafting my own gear? Why? Everything is Berserker anyway. and condi stuff takes way too much effort to make. And otherwise I'll just use suboptimal gear, use insignias to change ascended stats and use boxes and other drops to fill in my character's builds.

    Crafting is not a good way to get your gear. And ArenaNet is not capable of making materials float in nicely.

    They tried to balance prices back and forth and in the end they were like "We can't fix it so we're going to wait until it fixes itself." and later "It's not fixing itself fast enough because of "sticky"prices so we're going to make sure we annoy you with inventory problems for the first 3-4 weeks of the expansion."

    I'm still waiting for leather to go back to better refinement (4 for thick and 3 for hardened is just feeling punishing to me) but on the other hand I just keep hoarding until I feel comfortable using my leather again.

  • @Tanner Blackfeather.6509 said:
    My suggestion to.change patches:
    Go from 10 Leather + 4 Cloth, output 5 patches to 1 Leather + 1 Cloth output 1 patch.

    Two gains:
    1: Halved leather requirements for insignia and slightly increase cloth
    2: Lower tier armors (Rare and MW, yes they still exist) don't have to overproduce patches. Full set rare: 12 patches, full set MW: 6 patches - neither possible by current recepie.

    This sounds reasonable to me. It would be an easy change to implement, relatively speaking, and then ANet can observer the impact on the economy from there. If the price doesn't drop enough, you can adjust further. If it drops too much, you can increase leather requirements until you find the right balance.

    Overall, to me it seems like it would be easier to adjust demand, rather than supply, and preferably in an incremental manner, rather than the landslide approach they used before when Gossamer Patches became a thing..

  • AegisRunestone.8672AegisRunestone.8672 Member ✭✭✭
    edited October 25, 2017

    @Oglaf.1074 said:
    Just cut the Square requirements in half, or even reduce to one third of what it currently is for most things.

    10 Squares per armour piece for Lunatic is just insanity.

    I'm sorry for this...

    But you might say it's lunacy. runs

    But yeah, that was my base suggestion. At least cut it down to 5 squares.

    @Tenrai Senshi.2017 said:

    @Oglaf.1074 said:
    The patches are indeed the worst perpetrator here. I love how Anet made the recipe result in "5 Gossamer Patches" as a way to make it - on the surface - not seem so bad to blow 10 Squares on 5 Patches. 2 Squares per Patch? Acceptable!

    ... that is, until you realize that each insignia uses 5 Patches anyway so the fact that you make 5 of them is entirely irrelevant, lol.

    It becomes more wonky when you get those weird recipes that only require 3 patches, but you're forced to craft 5 at a time regardless. XD

    Oh my gosh, I HATE those recipes. "What do I do with the other two patches? Sell them?"

  • Wanze.8410Wanze.8410 Member ✭✭✭

    @Tenrai Senshi.2017 said:
    Are there any plans to re-balance the value of this particular mat? Because right now, Hardened Leather is many times more expensive than other similar mats of the same tier (such as Ancient Wood, Gossamer or Orichalcum). It's gotten to the point where crafting anything that uses Hardened Leather ends up being overly expensive, especially when leveling crafts like Tailor, where you can't even sell the end results for half the cost involved in crafting them.

    I'd really like a proper response from an ANet official please, because I want to know if there are actually any plans, or if it's even being looked at, at all.

    they did address hard leather by introducing bloodstone-warped hides in LS s2e4 and buffing its salvage rate into hard leather later on.

    You can target farm those, if you think the price of hard leather is too expensive for you.

  • Wanze.8410Wanze.8410 Member ✭✭✭

    @Ohoni.6057 said:
    They rarely bother to balance mats of supposedly equivalent value, but they really should. All items within the same tier should be roughly equivalent in value most of the time, within a reasonable margin.

    so i conclude that you would be fine with 20s each for ori, ancient wood and gossamer.

  • Rauderi.8706Rauderi.8706 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Wanze.8410 said:
    so i conclude that you would be fine with 20s each for ori, ancient wood and gossamer.

    Considering how much Ori and Ancient rain down on the PoF maps?
    Yes. Yes I would.
    Of course, the method to get to that point would require absurd, unsustainable sinks that show obvious intent, rather than a smooth and integrated system that promotes those prices naturally.

    Though...
    I figured that the trade caches would have done more to dent the leather prices. Maybe it needs more time, but I'm disappointed that both the Lake Doric farm (even after the drop rates were significantly bumped) and the trade caches have done little to move those prices.

    It might be time to have better in-game sinks and exchanges to manage many of these flagging materials. A limited version of the Zephyrite traders could go really well, and with Amnoon as a bustling trade hub, would fit with lore. As a once/day thing, turn in 100 of an crafting material (also to include cooking mats and jewelcrafting) and pick a crate of a specific good or type of good. RNG it up a little, either on number of item given or as a class of good, tilt the drops toward what the player selected, but filter in other tiers of its type. As with the rep vendors in the area and their trade contract crates, switch out what gets sought and sold on a given day it's not a completely solved equation.

    Many alts! Handle it!

    "A condescending answer might as well not be an answer at all."
    -Eloc Freidon.5692

  • Wanze.8410Wanze.8410 Member ✭✭✭

    @Rauderi.8706 said:

    I figured that the trade caches would have done more to dent the leather prices. Maybe it needs more time, but I'm disappointed that both the Lake Doric farm (even after the drop rates were significantly bumped) and the trade caches have done little to move those prices.

    I heard lake doric farm is quite profitable atm but that fact that so few people do it tells me that most players are content (not necessarily happy) with current leather prices because they rather play other content for the fun factor or because other farms yield enough gold per hour that they can afford the current prices.

    Anyways, I just made that comment to illustrate that aiming for the same values for materials of the same tier wont necessarily lower the price of leather.

    There is also no good reason to aim for the same value of materials, just because they are in the same tier, if they have completely different sinks and faucets, which is the case for the 4 common mat groups.

<13
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