Did Primordus and Jormag eat Lyssa??? 🤔 — Guild Wars 2 Forums
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Did Primordus and Jormag eat Lyssa??? 🤔

TeeracK.3601TeeracK.3601 Member ✭✭
edited January 27, 2021 in Lore

It's just a thought I had. Jormag always lies and manipulates people. Jormag said they and Primordus are twin dragons. Baladazar had lyssa's mirror and was kind of crazed with vengeance over killing the dragons. What if what he meant when he said "they've dimmed my light" he was being metaphorical meaning they killed the person he loved Lyssa? :open_mouth:

Also in siren's landing I can't help but feel like Jormag is very similar in the IBS to the new scripture of lyssa we got in season 3 right before PoF.

A Parable of Lyssa

From out of the darkness, there stepped a child into the campfire's light. And she said, "I am Lyssa, and I have come to teach you what is illusion and what is truth."

But the soldiers there did not believe her. They laughed and said, "If you're Lyssa, then show us your beauty, for we can surely use it on this dark night. We have lost hope that this war will end."

The child approached, and her smile held divine grace. "Share your food with me, and in return for your kindness, I will show you beauty the likes of you will never see again."

And so the kind soldiers did, and the child ate with ravenous hunger. When the last bone had been tossed aside, and the last bean swallowed, the child began to skip around the outside of the campfire. She touched each man on his head, one at a time, as they laughed and jibed her until, one at a time, they fell into a deep slumber. Each man dreamed a different dream, but each dream was a vision of the life they would lead once the war was over—wives, children, riches, open air, health, and peace.

And when they awoke upon the morrow, the child was gone and the enemy had arrived. They fought joyfully, with all their might, because they all remembered their dreams and knew they would win the war. Each man put his heart and soul into the battle, and each man, one at a time, was slaughtered._

Comments

  • Fenom.9457Fenom.9457 Member ✭✭✭✭

    It’s crazy, but you never know. I mean I don’t think they actually ate them, that would be weird and incredibly cringey. But the idea of them consuming her magic and killing her isn’t terrible. I think there are more likely (and better?) options for her story but that’s possible

    I'd rather keep going.. wherever the wind takes us

  • @Fenom.9457 said:
    It’s crazy, but you never know. I mean I don’t think they actually ate them, that would be weird and incredibly cringey. But the idea of them consuming her magic and killing her isn’t terrible. I think there are more likely (and better?) options for her story but that’s possible

    A a conflict with the gods pre pof with the dragons like this could also maybe explain the weird thing in the movement of the world where they state Lyssa also gains power over water. Maybe in that same fight they also absorbed away Komir's domain of water and that is why all of Jorma's minions just swim through ice and a large part of the far shiver peaks is now water.

  • Stephen.6312Stephen.6312 Member ✭✭✭

    They might've eaten Lyssa. The best thing about your speculation is that you're trying to fit Lyssa in. Whatever question we ask, or theory we propose, can't hurt to do so.

    Thumbs up, mate.

    Want to delve into some theories about the lore and story of GW2? Check these posts out: The Search For Answers P1 and The Search For Answers P2.

  • Fenom.9457Fenom.9457 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Stephen.6312 said:
    They might've eaten Lyssa. The best thing about your speculation is that you're trying to fit Lyssa in. Whatever question we ask, or theory we propose, can't hurt to do so.

    Thumbs up, mate.

    On the one hand I agree, on the other maybe it’s better not to fit her in. After the dragon plot is concluded, her story can lead us into a larger gods storyline with the 4th xpac. Something like:

    End of Dragons

    Season 6/Saga 2 in Cantha (so much space to cover in maps and so much going on there it’ll need another season)

    Then, either another season with lyssa leading into the fourth expansion, or the fourth expansion right from the end of 6 (similar to how 3 led into PoF without having much to do with the plot of PoF before the very end), and wrap it up in a season following the expansion. At least, I’m assuming the first post dragons plot will be about the human gods since they set stuff up a while back, not to mention there’s unused ideas from GW1

    I'd rather keep going.. wherever the wind takes us

  • The Greyhawk.9107The Greyhawk.9107 Member ✭✭✭✭

    How would either manage to do this to Lyssa when the Six left Tyria centuries before the latest Dragon rising?

    Hate Is Fuel.

  • @Fenom.9457 said:

    @Stephen.6312 said:
    They might've eaten Lyssa. The best thing about your speculation is that you're trying to fit Lyssa in. Whatever question we ask, or theory we propose, can't hurt to do so.

    Thumbs up, mate.

    On the one hand I agree, on the other maybe it’s better not to fit her in. After the dragon plot is concluded, her story can lead us into a larger gods storyline with the 4th xpac. Something like:

    End of Dragons

    Season 6/Saga 2 in Cantha (so much space to cover in maps and so much going on there it’ll need another season)

    Then, either another season with lyssa leading into the fourth expansion, or the fourth expansion right from the end of 6 (similar to how 3 led into PoF without having much to do with the plot of PoF before the very end), and wrap it up in a season following the expansion. At least, I’m assuming the first post dragons plot will be about the human gods since they set stuff up a while back, not to mention there’s unused ideas from GW1

    That can still happen. I would think if the Dragons were gone Dwayna, Malandru, Kormir, and Grenth would like to return. Half of the remaining gods are human after all.

  • Stephen.6312Stephen.6312 Member ✭✭✭
    edited January 27, 2021

    @The Greyhawk.9107 said:
    How would either manage to do this to Lyssa when the Six left Tyria centuries before the latest Dragon rising?

    I genuinely feel that there is something up with the timeline with which we have been presented. This forum hasn't spent enough time investigating the Mouvelian Calendar's idiosyncrasies to be able to articulate details about it that are, presently, largely grasped intuitively.

    Knowledgeable members of the lore community will remember that the Risen Priestess of Lyssa states that her "goddess was mere prey for the dragon". The priestess uses the past tense. She also states that Zaithan "devoured" the gods. So how does that work, given the timeline presented to us? It's tempting, downright easy, to dismiss it all as lies. Those who hear the priestess are divided about her truthfulness. The open-minded are prepared to question whether the priestess is telling the truth. Others are unwilling to even entertain the idea that she might be candid. But what if the priestess is telling the truth From a storytelling perspective, this is the only option presented to us that allows for the development of any further storylines.

    I'm not saying that I believe Teerack's theory is accurate enough to be reliable. But it's a good attempt. No one has ever really pursued angles like this before, certainly no one that I know of.

    Want to delve into some theories about the lore and story of GW2? Check these posts out: The Search For Answers P1 and The Search For Answers P2.

  • The Greyhawk.9107The Greyhawk.9107 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Stephen.6312 said:

    @The Greyhawk.9107 said:
    How would either manage to do this to Lyssa when the Six left Tyria centuries before the latest Dragon rising?

    I genuinely feel that there is something up with the timeline with which we have been presented. This forum hasn't spent enough time investigating the Mouvelian Calendar's idiosyncrasies to be able to articulate details about it that are, presently, largely grasped intuitively.

    Knowledgeable members of the lore community will remember that the Risen Priestess of Lyssa states that her "goddess was mere prey for the dragon". The priestess uses the past tense. She also states that Zaithan "devoured" the gods. So how does that work, given the timeline presented to us? It's tempting, downright easy, to dismiss it all as lies. Those who hear the priestess are divided about her truthfulness. The open-minded are prepared to question whether the priestess is telling the truth. Others are unwilling to even entertain the idea that she might be candid. But what if the priestess is telling the truth From a storytelling perspective, this is the only option presented to us that allows for the development of any further storylines.

    I'm not saying that I believe Teerack's theory is accurate enough to be reliable. But it's a good attempt. No one has ever really pursued angles like this before, certainly no one that I know of.

    Why shouldn't we dismiss what the Priestess said as lies? Zhaitan's minions said a lot of kitten, why should we believe this particular one?

    Hate Is Fuel.

  • Stephen.6312Stephen.6312 Member ✭✭✭

    @The Greyhawk.9107 said:

    @Stephen.6312 said:

    @The Greyhawk.9107 said:
    How would either manage to do this to Lyssa when the Six left Tyria centuries before the latest Dragon rising?

    I genuinely feel that there is something up with the timeline with which we have been presented. This forum hasn't spent enough time investigating the Mouvelian Calendar's idiosyncrasies to be able to articulate details about it that are, presently, largely grasped intuitively.

    Knowledgeable members of the lore community will remember that the Risen Priestess of Lyssa states that her "goddess was mere prey for the dragon". The priestess uses the past tense. She also states that Zaithan "devoured" the gods. So how does that work, given the timeline presented to us? It's tempting, downright easy, to dismiss it all as lies. Those who hear the priestess are divided about her truthfulness. The open-minded are prepared to question whether the priestess is telling the truth. Others are unwilling to even entertain the idea that she might be candid. But what if the priestess is telling the truth From a storytelling perspective, this is the only option presented to us that allows for the development of any further storylines.

    I'm not saying that I believe Teerack's theory is accurate enough to be reliable. But it's a good attempt. No one has ever really pursued angles like this before, certainly no one that I know of.

    Why shouldn't we dismiss what the Priestess said as lies? Zhaitan's minions said a lot of kitten, why should we believe this particular one?

    Did they consistently lie, though? How many possible lies can you identify, without the explicit aid of an NPC's dialogue? Why don't you list lies identified as such by NPCs? That would allow us to discern just how truthful the Risen really are.

    What about the Risen Keeper of the Shrine? Was he lying when he claimed that "the Mists are full of lies"? Why make such a claim?

    Want to delve into some theories about the lore and story of GW2? Check these posts out: The Search For Answers P1 and The Search For Answers P2.

  • Touchme.1097Touchme.1097 Member ✭✭✭

    It can't be, Kormir mentions the 5 Gods in PoF and not the 4 so Lyssa may still be alive. I wouldn't exclude the possibility that Lyssa fooled the other Gods to remain in Tyria and now she could be planning her vengeance against the dragons and the mortals who killed Balthazar. She is the Goddess of illusions and only her illusions can fool the other Gods. Balthazar's half brother is still alive, the Lord of destruction is probably planning his wrath unto the mortal races. We witnessed a piece of his domain in Dragonfall. Torment is by far the top villain in this game, an entity that can corrupt elder dragons and Gods is by far well beyond their powers.

  • Randulf.7614Randulf.7614 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Stephen.6312 said:
    I'm not saying that I believe Teerack's theory is accurate enough to be reliable. But it's a good attempt. No one has ever really pursued angles like this before, certainly no one that I know of.

    People don't pursue it because it doesn't make sense and doesn't fit in any way what we already know.

    There's theorycrafting/speculation and just coming up with a random idea and seeing if it can be made to fit. That's what this is and it doesn't fit at all.

    Even if there was the remotest chance of it being possible, Anet would have seeded it via dialogue, seeded it via things going on or just plain wrote it as the story.

    What sleep is here? What dreams there are in the unctuous coiling of the snakes mortal shuffling. weapon in my hand. My hand the arcing deathblow at the end of all things. The horror. The horror. I embrace it. . .

  • TeeracK.3601TeeracK.3601 Member ✭✭
    edited January 27, 2021

    @Stephen.6312 said:

    @The Greyhawk.9107 said:
    How would either manage to do this to Lyssa when the Six left Tyria centuries before the latest Dragon rising?

    I genuinely feel that there is something up with the timeline with which we have been presented. This forum hasn't spent enough time investigating the Mouvelian Calendar's idiosyncrasies to be able to articulate details about it that are, presently, largely grasped intuitively.

    Knowledgeable members of the lore community will remember that the Risen Priestess of Lyssa states that her "goddess was mere prey for the dragon". The priestess uses the past tense. She also states that Zaithan "devoured" the gods. So how does that work, given the timeline presented to us? It's tempting, downright easy, to dismiss it all as lies. Those who hear the priestess are divided about her truthfulness. The open-minded are prepared to question whether the priestess is telling the truth. Others are unwilling to even entertain the idea that she might be candid. But what if the priestess is telling the truth From a storytelling perspective, this is the only option presented to us that allows for the development of any further storylines.

    I'm not saying that I believe Teerack's theory is accurate enough to be reliable. But it's a good attempt. No one has ever really pursued angles like this before, certainly no one that I know of.

    I feel like the dev's did a great job making it clear that the gods lie. Siren's landing and all the statues of Abaddon in the middle of Orr throw a big wrench in the idea that Abbadon was a forgotten god. I think if the human gods were willing to punish Abbadon and then change the memories of humanity it shows more then anything that the human gods are willing to lie. The fact Dwayna loved a mortal and the fact Balthazar went mad also further shows the how these beings are less then perfect and emotional beings so they are not always benevolent. Even stepping away from the gods looking at the tombs we found about the Murssat i think the dev's like to play around with the idea that the winners write history and we don't really know the full story.

    If the gods took a big step back when they sense the return of Abbadon because they were scared of making another desolation. It was kind of implied they were still watching over the world until the rising of the dragons by kormir in pof. It wouldn't shock me if at one point the gods decided to give taking care of them a try when they watched the movement of the world and failed making them decided to completely leave the world.

  • Bast.7253Bast.7253 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Pretty sure the entirety of Season 4 and the repercussions of Kralk absorbing Balthazar's magic.. giving him the ability to traverse the mists.. is a good indication of "no."

    Presumably all human gods would give that same ability to the Elder Dragons and I don't think they would have made it a huge plot point that they're now able to enter the mists over the past few seasons if it weren't a new ability.

    In terms of the text, I think that's just portraying that Lyssa probably got pretty peeved that they didn't just openly share their food without wanting something in return. So she gave them something in return that ultimately led to their death. A bit twisted and cunning like Jormag but entirely different motivations.

    As far as the twins thing, I don't think that's really relevant. We're assuming they were born twins and .. what.. did each of them just be like.. "hey, bro... let's each eat one of those human goddesses."

    I'm really not sure what the emphasis is on twins with Prim and Jormag, the logo of End of Dragons, or what kind of significance this will all have in the end. I'm sure there's a reason it's just difficult guessing why or where it's leading to.

    My original thought with Prim and Jormag were that it was simply to show the relation between opposing forces in terms of the All. Say, Primordus and Jormag being opposites, Mordremoth and Zhaitan being opposites, and presumably Kralk and DSD being opposites. But we've never heard about any of the other elder dragons having a "twin." So that's suspicious and seems like it might be relevant later.

  • Fueki.4753Fueki.4753 Member ✭✭✭✭

    If Kormir is to be trusted, Lyssa left Tyria safely with Grenth and the other goddesses.

  • Touchme.1097Touchme.1097 Member ✭✭✭

    @Fueki.4753 said:
    If Kormir is to be trusted, Lyssa left Tyria safely with Grenth and the other goddesses.

    But the thing is you can't trust Kormir, Balthazar fooled even her with Lyssa's mirror. She is the goddess of truth but can't see through Lyssa's illusion and this makes her a less powerful Goddess. She absorbed the powers of a fallen God after all.

  • Randulf.7614Randulf.7614 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 27, 2021

    @Touchme.1097 said:

    @Fueki.4753 said:
    If Kormir is to be trusted, Lyssa left Tyria safely with Grenth and the other goddesses.

    But the thing is you can't trust Kormir, Balthazar fooled even her with Lyssa's mirror. She is the goddess of truth but can't see through Lyssa's illusion and this makes her a less powerful Goddess. She absorbed the powers of a fallen God after all.

    I don't think absorbing a fallen God's powers makes any difference to her status as a God. She fully took on the title of Goddess of Truth and according to the scriptures and "all its powers and resposnsbilities". It's also noted that Lyssa mocked Kormir for remaining behind as per Kormir's diary. Lyssa to mock another God for that and then staying behind anyway makes little sense.

    What sleep is here? What dreams there are in the unctuous coiling of the snakes mortal shuffling. weapon in my hand. My hand the arcing deathblow at the end of all things. The horror. The horror. I embrace it. . .

  • Touchme.1097Touchme.1097 Member ✭✭✭

    @Randulf.7614 said:

    @Touchme.1097 said:

    @Fueki.4753 said:
    If Kormir is to be trusted, Lyssa left Tyria safely with Grenth and the other goddesses.

    But the thing is you can't trust Kormir, Balthazar fooled even her with Lyssa's mirror. She is the goddess of truth but can't see through Lyssa's illusion and this makes her a less powerful Goddess. She absorbed the powers of a fallen God after all.

    I don't think absorbing a fallen God's powers makes any difference to her status as a God. She fully took on the title of Goddess of Truth and according to the scriptures and "all its powers and resposnsbilities". It's also noted that Lyssa mocked Kormir for remaining behind as per Kormir's diary. Lyssa to mock another God for that and then staying behind anyway makes little sense.

    It doesn't make sense to you because you can't see the plot behind it and instantly jump to wave the nonsense flag at my comment without thinking. It's pretty reasonably valid to claim that if Lyssa had plans to stay in Tyria as the only goddess she could have lured all the Gods in their depart, this way no Goddess would interfere in her secret plans. What if Lyssa gave her mirror to Balthazar? We don't know how he went in possession of the mirror so as long as there are no answers from ArenaNet to fill this gap in the lore we can be free to speculate every possibilities.

  • @TeeracK.3601 said:
    It's just a thought I had. Jormag always lies and manipulates people. Jormag said they and Primordus are twin dragons. Baladazar had lyssa's mirror and was kind of crazed with vengeance over killing the dragons. What if what he meant when he said "they've dimmed my light" he was being metaphorical meaning they killed the person he loved Lyssa?

    All evidence would say no.

    Primordus and Jormag were born long, long before the Six Gods knew of Tyria, let alone arrived on the planet. Their lifespan no doubt predates Lyssa's lifespan. Similarly, Jormag is an established liar and manipulator during the previous dragonrise, which again predates the Six Gods' knowledge of (let alone arrival on) the planet.

    When Balthazar said "they dimmed my light", he was referring to the fact the other gods removed his divinity before imprisoning him. Balthazar wasn't an actual god anymore, but a former one like Dhuum. And evidence from PoF indicates that Lyssa's still alive when Balthazar was imprisoned, which was sometime in the last 250 years, again long after any manipulation or twin situation from Jormag and Primordus was about.

    The only Elder Dragon credited with eating a god is Zhaitan (Kralkatorrik consuming former god Balthazar's magic not including) and that is by all indication a lie designed to demoralize human Pact soldiers.

    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.

  • @Stephen.6312 said:

    @The Greyhawk.9107 said:
    How would either manage to do this to Lyssa when the Six left Tyria centuries before the latest Dragon rising?

    I genuinely feel that there is something up with the timeline with which we have been presented. This forum hasn't spent enough time investigating the Mouvelian Calendar's idiosyncrasies to be able to articulate details about it that are, presently, largely grasped intuitively.

    Kind of hard to grasp the fine details when ANet's willingly adding 5 days to the end of it as a recent lore discovery despite it making zero logical sense.

    Knowledgeable members of the lore community will remember that the Risen Priestess of Lyssa states that her "goddess was mere prey for the dragon". The priestess uses the past tense. She also states that Zaithan "devoured" the gods. So how does that work, given the timeline presented to us? It's tempting, downright easy, to dismiss it all as lies. Those who hear the priestess are divided about her truthfulness. The open-minded are prepared to question whether the priestess is telling the truth. Others are unwilling to even entertain the idea that she might be candid. But what if the priestess is telling the truth From a storytelling perspective, this is the only option presented to us that allows for the development of any further storylines.

    I'm not saying that I believe Teerack's theory is accurate enough to be reliable. But it's a good attempt. No one has ever really pursued angles like this before, certainly no one that I know of.

    Risen are pathological liars, and Path of Fire gives us solid evidence counter to the notion that Zhaitan ate Lyssa. Even dismissing Kormir (and her journal) as not trustworthy as @Touchme.1097 does, there's the fact that Balthazar's magic getting eaten by Kralkatorrik resulted in Kralk gaining Mists-hoping abilities; Zhaitan never even left Orr, so Lyssa would have had to gone to him to be killed and eaten by Zhaitan. This would not go unnoticed by the world, as even Balthazar's return was noticed even with the mirror.

    And as to "no one has ever really pursued angles like this before, certainly no one that I know of." The whole idea of the Elder Dragons having eaten one or more god (or even be one of the gods' split personality) has been theorized since 2012. And routenly disproven. The number of theories that try to relate the Elder Dragons and Six Gods in some manner are widely diverse and extremely numerous. This isn't all that new, just taking new lore to alter it a bit.

    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.

  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 29, 2021

    @Touchme.1097 said:

    @Fueki.4753 said:
    If Kormir is to be trusted, Lyssa left Tyria safely with Grenth and the other goddesses.

    But the thing is you can't trust Kormir, Balthazar fooled even her with Lyssa's mirror. She is the goddess of truth but can't see through Lyssa's illusion and this makes her a less powerful Goddess. She absorbed the powers of a fallen God after all.

    I would argue that Kormir lied about Balthazar fooling her, because it simply doesn't make sense. According to Siren's Landing lore (S3E6), Balthazar showed up as himself to hide the aspect of Lazarus, something he did to ensure his disguise wouldn't be figured out. He also took some undefined artifacts from multiple gods' reliquaries (no doubt including the mirror, his greatsword, and his armor). Since he was not hiding himself as Lazarus, this means that this happened either after the mirror was broken, or before he obtained the mirror (it could not have been after Dragon Vigil of S3E2 as Marjory was with him the entire time).

    However, if the mirror was broken, then there would have been no point in hiding the aspect of Lazarus there, as his disguise was already removed. So this visit had to occur prior to Episode 2. Which means Kormir either lied to us, or wasn't paying attention and omitted the fact she wasn't always watching.

    Furthermore, even before the Forged, he was in Elona making deals with Joko. The way dialogue goes in PoF is that Joko was MIA for quite some time, and the Forged have been ransaking things for weeks. There wouldn't have been much time between the end of Flashpoint and the beginning of Path of Fire to show up before Joko, convince him to assist, find Kesho, interrogate and wipe out the Exalted, create the Forged prototypes, imprison Joko in the Domain of the Lost, and convert all his Eternals into true Forged, and still be assaulting with enough time to spare that refugees flood Lion's Arch - all this being a 4 month span.

    Seems more likely to me that Balthazar was in Elona, as Balthazar, before the events of Flashpoint. Which further suggests Kormir lied to us about Balthazar and Lyssa's mirror. As an aside: this would means it had to be done before Rising Flames (S3E2) due to Marjory's presence, so he was probably acting "as Balthazar" before the revelation of Out of the Shadows, and we know that in the the later part of the year-ish gap between HoT and S3 beginning, Bauer was working under the orders of someone who wasn't Caudecus - namely, it'd have been "Lazarus" aka Balthazar, either disguised or not being unclear, but with no constant communication, making side-trips to Elona would have made sense and finding Kesho first would explain how Balthazar knew about Tarir's location, the existence of Aurene, and how to get into the protected nursery area.

    Point being, while I would say "Kormir isn't to be trusted", I disagree with why. Kormir was clearly trying to paint Lyssa as suspicious in her journal and speech, which Kormir wouldn't bother doing if Lyssa was dead.

    Kormir's actions were more geared towards framing Lyssa for something, than being a blind idiot god.

    Also, Abaddon was still a full god. Balthazar and Dhuum were former gods with their divinity stripped. Abaddon was fallen, in the sense of being evil, but he was still a full fledged god with all his power - that power was merely locked away behind seals in his prison, so he couldn't use the full might. Varesh's purpose in the Nightfall plot was to unlock those eight seals so as to return his power. Abaddon was at (presumably, depending on how the seals function) at 3/8th of his full might when killed. But his power was all there in the end, he just couldn't access it.

    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.

  • Kossage.9072Kossage.9072 Member ✭✭✭

    @TeeracK.3601 said:
    It's just a thought I had. Jormag always lies and manipulates people. Jormag said they and Primordus are twin dragons. Baladazar had lyssa's mirror and was kind of crazed with vengeance over killing the dragons. What if what he meant when he said "they've dimmed my light" he was being metaphorical meaning they killed the person he loved Lyssa? :open_mouth:

    Regarding Jormag and lies, interestingly narrative director Tom Abernathy tweeted this a few months ago:

    Tom Abernathy: Said it before and I’ll say it again: Jormag is 100% sincere in saying they love Tyria and want nothing more than to fortify and protect it. Jormag doesn’t lie. That’s part of their strength. (Source)

    So if Jormag has not lied, or at least perceives its persuasive words as not lying, it makes Jormag's past interactions with mortals most interesting as we have to look at its words and actions from a new point of view. Then again, this revelation has not yet appeared in game where several characters still believe Jormag to be a liar, so it remains to be seen when and how it gets addressed. :)

  • anninke.7469anninke.7469 Member ✭✭✭

    @Kossage.9072 said:

    @TeeracK.3601 said:
    It's just a thought I had. Jormag always lies and manipulates people. Jormag said they and Primordus are twin dragons. Baladazar had lyssa's mirror and was kind of crazed with vengeance over killing the dragons. What if what he meant when he said "they've dimmed my light" he was being metaphorical meaning they killed the person he loved Lyssa? :open_mouth:

    Regarding Jormag and lies, interestingly narrative director Tom Abernathy tweeted this a few months ago:

    Tom Abernathy: Said it before and I’ll say it again: Jormag is 100% sincere in saying they love Tyria and want nothing more than to fortify and protect it. Jormag doesn’t lie. That’s part of their strength. (Source)

    So if Jormag has not lied, or at least perceives its persuasive words as not lying, it makes Jormag's past interactions with mortals most interesting as we have to look at its words and actions from a new point of view. Then again, this revelation has not yet appeared in game where several characters still believe Jormag to be a liar, so it remains to be seen when and how it gets addressed. :)

    But Jormag could still be lying about everything else but loving and protecting Tyria (is how I understand the quote).

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  • The Greyhawk.9107The Greyhawk.9107 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @anninke.7469 said:

    @Kossage.9072 said:

    @TeeracK.3601 said:
    It's just a thought I had. Jormag always lies and manipulates people. Jormag said they and Primordus are twin dragons. Baladazar had lyssa's mirror and was kind of crazed with vengeance over killing the dragons. What if what he meant when he said "they've dimmed my light" he was being metaphorical meaning they killed the person he loved Lyssa? :open_mouth:

    Regarding Jormag and lies, interestingly narrative director Tom Abernathy tweeted this a few months ago:

    Tom Abernathy: Said it before and I’ll say it again: Jormag is 100% sincere in saying they love Tyria and want nothing more than to fortify and protect it. Jormag doesn’t lie. That’s part of their strength. (Source)

    So if Jormag has not lied, or at least perceives its persuasive words as not lying, it makes Jormag's past interactions with mortals most interesting as we have to look at its words and actions from a new point of view. Then again, this revelation has not yet appeared in game where several characters still believe Jormag to be a liar, so it remains to be seen when and how it gets addressed. :)

    But Jormag could still be lying about everything else but loving and protecting Tyria (is how I understand the quote).

    Oh, Jormag cares about Tyria, kinda the way someone cares about their home or land. It just doesn't give to flying kitten about all the people that live in Tyria.

    Hate Is Fuel.

  • Svennis.3852Svennis.3852 Member ✭✭✭

    It really would be fascinating to get into the origins of elder dragons, and how their original intentions may have become twisted over the years. The idea of Jormag (or any of the elders) once being a more Aurene-like figure, but perverting over time due to negative experiences or magical addiction/torment could be such a beautifully tragic tale. Not to say the elder dragons all should've been "good" at one point in the mythic past, but it would add a new layer to Jormag especially given their portrayal throughout Icebrood Saga.

    Gosh, I did not expect Jormag to become my "favorite" but I feel they did a really nice job with this dragon's characterization. The VA is a big part of that, too.

  • TeeracK.3601TeeracK.3601 Member ✭✭
    edited February 1, 2021

    I think this theory that a dragon ate Lyssa could also work with the DSD. It could explain why Lyssa gained the domain of water or been more of a foreshadowing thing for this. It would make the Priestess of Lyssa quote make sense. A conflict between Balthazar and the DSD at the Battle Isles would also be a great story beat. Part of why I say this is because the DSD is the most mysterious hidden dragon and looking back at some of it's old concept art it kind of reminds me a bit of Lyssa. Dragon_16_concept_art.jpg there is also the ying yang looking water dragon in the new EoD logo that sort of themes up nice with Lyssa's whole two sided coin kind of thing.

  • ChronoPinoyX.7923ChronoPinoyX.7923 Member ✭✭✭
    edited February 2, 2021

    The problem with this theory is as Konig states, Kormir had literal interactions with Lyssa before the gods left Tyria. That interaction recorded in her diary shows that Lyssa was present at the time of departure so it wouldn't fit any scenario where Lyssa would be consumed by the Elder Dragons.

    At most, only Balthazar fits the scenario of being consumed by any Elder Dragon, and that's an aspect we had to fight inside of a dragon. If Lyssa, or any of the other Gods sans Balthazar, had any interaction with the Elder Dragons before their departure, more than likely they simply attempted to keep the dragons dormant for as long as possible. Past that, there's no real record of direct confrontation between the dragons and the Gods (one that would cause the twins, or any of the dragons, to consume Lyssa) until recently. Balthazar was adamant in taking on the Elder Dragons, making him the only real God that wanted to have any direct confrontation with them, and that didn't happen until after Lyssa, Kormir and the rest of the Gods imprisoned him in the Mists. The Gods always knew of the Elder Dragons as being part of the natural laws and balance within Tyria, which is more than likely why they never wanted to touch on the subject matter, or even interfere with it to begin with.

  • TeeracK.3601TeeracK.3601 Member ✭✭
    edited February 2, 2021

    @ChronoPinoyX.7923 said:
    The problem with this theory is as Konig states, Kormir had literal interactions with Lyssa before the gods left Tyria. That interaction recorded in her diary shows that Lyssa was present at the time of departure so it wouldn't fit any scenario where Lyssa would be consumed by the Elder Dragons.

    At most, only Balthazar fits the scenario of being consumed by any Elder Dragon, and that's an aspect we had to fight inside of a dragon. If Lyssa, or any of the other Gods sans Balthazar, had any interaction with the Elder Dragons before their departure, more than likely they simply attempted to keep the dragons dormant for as long as possible. Past that, there's no real record of direct confrontation between the dragons and the Gods (one that would cause the twins, or any of the dragons, to consume Lyssa) until recently. Balthazar was adamant in taking on the Elder Dragons, making him the only real God that wanted to have any direct confrontation with them, and that didn't happen until after Lyssa, Kormir and the rest of the Gods imprisoned him in the Mists. The Gods always knew of the Elder Dragons as being part of the natural laws and balance within Tyria, which is more than likely why they never wanted to touch on the subject matter, or even interfere with it to begin with.

    Actually she says "even Lyssa" as if there was some reason she wouldn't leave with them. If all her magic was consumed and she was left a mortal she could have been taking with the gods without still being a god or going darker if she was dead or maybe half dead(meaning one of the twins was eaten) she could have still left with them half consumed or as a corps with this theory still playing out.

  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 5, 2021

    @TeeracK.3601 said:
    It could explain why Lyssa gained the domain of water or been more of a foreshadowing thing for this.

    Lyssa "gained the domain of water" because she always had ties to water, as firmly established foremost with Nightfall. Where Abaddon was about the water depths, Lyssa was about the water surface and its reflective properties. Mirrors, reflections, and distortions of lenses are all in Lyssa's domain from day 1.

    She never "gained" anything but a formal title.

    @TeeracK.3601 said:
    Actually she says "even Lyssa" as if there was some reason she wouldn't leave with them. If all her magic was consumed and she was left a mortal she could have been taking with the gods without still being a god or going darker if she was dead or maybe half dead(meaning one of the twins was eaten) she could have still left with them half consumed or as a corps with this theory still playing out.

    The "even Lyssa" line isn't in reference to Lyssa leaving Tyria, but agreeing to imprison Balthazar because Balthazar wanted to kill the Elder Dragons despite the consequences.

    Kormir: The rest of the Six—Dwayna, Grenth, Melandru, even Lyssa—reached an agreement. Balthazar had to be dealt with.

    Here is what Kormir has to say about Lyssa's presence and departing the world:

    The end of my time here approaches, and I find my thoughts straying. Perhaps Lyssa was right to mock me for lingering behind.

    Which doesn't strictly say Lyssa left, but it does signify that Lyssa was alive, and still a god, when the gods began to leave. And it very heavily implies that Lyssa had already left.

    Also, it doesn't seem the gods are even capable of leaving corpses, btw. They could have their divinity taken from them (see: Balthazar and Dhuum) but when killed, their bodies break apart and their soul and remaining magic turns into a volatile storm (unclear if said storm dissipates over time or is perpetual, as both cases we see a god / former god die, the magic got consumed into a new vessel (Kormir and Kralkatorri/Aurene for Abaddon and Balthazar respectively).

    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.

  • @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @TeeracK.3601 said:
    It could explain why Lyssa gained the domain of water or been more of a foreshadowing thing for this.

    Lyssa "gained the domain of water" because she always had ties to water, as firmly established foremost with Nightfall. Where Abaddon was about the water depths, Lyssa was about the water surface and its reflective properties. Mirrors, reflections, and distortions of lenses are all in Lyssa's domain from day 1.

    She never "gained" anything but a formal title.

    @TeeracK.3601 said:
    Actually she says "even Lyssa" as if there was some reason she wouldn't leave with them. If all her magic was consumed and she was left a mortal she could have been taking with the gods without still being a god or going darker if she was dead or maybe half dead(meaning one of the twins was eaten) she could have still left with them half consumed or as a corps with this theory still playing out.

    The "even Lyssa" line isn't in reference to Lyssa leaving Tyria, but agreeing to imprison Balthazar because Balthazar wanted to kill the Elder Dragons despite the consequences.

    Kormir: The rest of the Six—Dwayna, Grenth, Melandru, even Lyssa—reached an agreement. Balthazar had to be dealt with.

    Here is what Kormir has to say about Lyssa's presence and departing the world:

    The end of my time here approaches, and I find my thoughts straying. Perhaps Lyssa was right to mock me for lingering behind.

    Which doesn't strictly say Lyssa left, but it does signify that Lyssa was alive, and still a god, when the gods began to leave. And it very heavily implies that Lyssa had already left.

    Also, it doesn't seem the gods are even capable of leaving corpses, btw. They could have their divinity taken from them (see: Balthazar and Dhuum) but when killed, their bodies break apart and their soul and remaining magic turns into a volatile storm (unclear if said storm dissipates over time or is perpetual, as both cases we see a god / former god die, the magic got consumed into a new vessel (Kormir and Kralkatorri/Aurene for Abaddon and Balthazar respectively).

    A lot of this is your own opinion/interoperation presented as fact.

  • ThatOddOne.4387ThatOddOne.4387 Member ✭✭✭
    edited February 8, 2021

    No, it's a very sensible interpretation of what we are actually told and using a shred of logic.

    Unlike the entire theory of an Elder Dragon eating a God, which is a very inane interpretation and doesn't utiltise a shred of logic.

    Mostly due to the fact if an Elder Dragon had eaten a God then there would be no more GW2 because that Elder Dragon would have won.

    I'm honestly baffled as to where this line of thought has even come from.

  • @TeeracK.3601 said:

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @TeeracK.3601 said:
    It could explain why Lyssa gained the domain of water or been more of a foreshadowing thing for this.

    Lyssa "gained the domain of water" because she always had ties to water, as firmly established foremost with Nightfall. Where Abaddon was about the water depths, Lyssa was about the water surface and its reflective properties. Mirrors, reflections, and distortions of lenses are all in Lyssa's domain from day 1.

    She never "gained" anything but a formal title.

    @TeeracK.3601 said:
    Actually she says "even Lyssa" as if there was some reason she wouldn't leave with them. If all her magic was consumed and she was left a mortal she could have been taking with the gods without still being a god or going darker if she was dead or maybe half dead(meaning one of the twins was eaten) she could have still left with them half consumed or as a corps with this theory still playing out.

    The "even Lyssa" line isn't in reference to Lyssa leaving Tyria, but agreeing to imprison Balthazar because Balthazar wanted to kill the Elder Dragons despite the consequences.

    Kormir: The rest of the Six—Dwayna, Grenth, Melandru, even Lyssa—reached an agreement. Balthazar had to be dealt with.

    Here is what Kormir has to say about Lyssa's presence and departing the world:

    The end of my time here approaches, and I find my thoughts straying. Perhaps Lyssa was right to mock me for lingering behind.

    Which doesn't strictly say Lyssa left, but it does signify that Lyssa was alive, and still a god, when the gods began to leave. And it very heavily implies that Lyssa had already left.

    Also, it doesn't seem the gods are even capable of leaving corpses, btw. They could have their divinity taken from them (see: Balthazar and Dhuum) but when killed, their bodies break apart and their soul and remaining magic turns into a volatile storm (unclear if said storm dissipates over time or is perpetual, as both cases we see a god / former god die, the magic got consumed into a new vessel (Kormir and Kralkatorri/Aurene for Abaddon and Balthazar respectively).

    A lot of this is your own opinion/interoperation presented as fact.

    Which is my own opinion?

    The quote of text from the game? Or stating what directly happens visually in cinematics? Please, inform me which is my "own opinion" that I'm presenting as fact. Because I can provide direct sources if you wish.

    The only thing that could be misunderstood as "my opinion stated as fact" would be Lyssa's association with water. But... The Mirror of Lyss, and a lot of text around Kehanni shows otherwise, from Nightfall, that Lyssa is tied to the reflective surface of water. Even the mysterious Bahltek talks about water's reflective surface's importance. In Malchor's Leap, the association of Lyssa and reflective surfaces is furthered with her cathedral in how it - like the Sebelkeh Basilica - stands over water.

    There's no relation between Lyssa and its depths, which is Abaddon's domain (he's even called "Lord of the Everlasting Depths" in his scriptures), just the surface. And the relation between Lyssa and water predates the death of Abaddon.

    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.