For all their bad i think drms as a concept have a place in GW2. — Guild Wars 2 Forums
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For all their bad i think drms as a concept have a place in GW2.

zealex.9410zealex.9410 Member ✭✭✭✭
edited January 27, 2021 in Living World

Drms have been an interesting point of discussion so far because to me they feel like a very solid attempt at bridging traditional instanced content and lw story, no, not the strike to raid sort of way but more fundementally of lw content and group content in general.

They feel very much like campaign missions from the original Guildwars in the sense that they are replayable and work well as group content due to cms and scaling.

Even if after EoD the contextual aspect of Drms has no place (no more dragons, no more dragon responce missions) in guild wars 2, i think the gameplay aspects still hold good value to this game. Gw2 imo stands to gain alot more enjoyment and replayability by incorporating the format of drms into the lw instances, story beats and even expansions moving forward. Structured, solo or group based instances with better made encounters than you will find in older lw or ow scenarios that can also be replayed for rewards and come with a cm. In theory and even in practice i think this works rather well as a way to make gw2 feel more replayable and social.

Ofc, the lw releases under the champions name have all been rather underwhelming, that is to say, just giving us instances which are also replayable and nothing else doesnt really excite the players. Thankfully i dont believe thats an issue with drms themselves but rather to the unfortunate cicumsrances of getting the opportunity to work on an expac mid lw.

Drms reuse the lw instances so they should be far easier to make along side the content we've come to expect from lw (new maps, map events, achievements, strikes etc). With this i really urge the studio to take a good look at drms and try to fit them in lw or expansions after eod when the dust has settled and the studio has a clearer view of the future.

Comments

  • Bast.7253Bast.7253 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I really don't think they'll be around beyond this saga and were kind of implemented as a bandaid fix for moving the living world team over to the expansion.

    I haven't played them all more than once but the latest did feel a bit better even if they were just 30 minutes of mindlessly killing mobs and the champs took forever.

    I do like the token system but we kind of had similar with Strike Missions and the rewards kind of stayed the same. I could see these as a more.. current events thing that could be rolled out in smaller scale between episode releases in a living season though moving forward and working well. Say, Epiosode dragon respone mision Episode if they needed to make the time between larger episodes a little larger.

    But I really don't see them sticking around because nothing ever does. We've had bounties, strikes, visions of the past, drm's.. and it feels like they just keep moving through various types of instanced content.

    I'm not really sure what the point of the allied faction stuff is though. It feels a bit fluff for the length of the instances. I suppose it's to introduce the new rewards and add new currencies? Might just be for story building and reflecting the joining of all of these factions to fight common enemies.

    My main disappointment with it is that it just doesn't let us get deeper into the story than a few lines of dialogue. But that's kind of the entirety of Icebrood and my, perhaps, unrealistic expectation of where the story was going to go versus where it actually went.

  • Noah Salazar.5430Noah Salazar.5430 Member ✭✭✭
    edited January 27, 2021

    Well science thay upgraded rewards a bit, this content is ok right now, also building a bit hipe before new expasnion hit up

  • Dami.5046Dami.5046 Member ✭✭✭✭

    They remind me of GW1's missions. I actually preferred that way of story telling, maybe a quest to link missions, a small cut scene here and there , but you played through the story without 10minutes of yabba yabba.
    I would welcome the return of how Gw1 did the story in the next expansion, however i am finding them at the moment a bit 'samey' and one and done.

  • Hannelore.8153Hannelore.8153 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I have a feeling they're a precursor to reintroducing the rest of LS1, and won't be present beyond IBS except for that.

    Hannah | Daisuki[SUKI] Founder, Ehmry Bay, NA | 24 charas, 18k hours, 29k AP | ♀♥♀
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  • Blocki.4931Blocki.4931 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I really think they are a great concept. This newer set of DRMs is much better than the previous ones, I think they should keep the idea of them and keep making them after the saga is over too. Imagine we got one or two DRMs inbetween waiting for a full episode. Would be cool, they can also work with what is already there, so they won't have to make new maps just for them

    Pls just permaban me by now so I can stop going back here

  • Palador.2170Palador.2170 Member ✭✭✭✭

    While I don't like the DRMs, I do think this is the kind of new content that GW2 has been needing for years. I thought this back when this kind of stuff was called ... you know ... DUNGEONS.

    I mean, the only reason they're not being called that is because they're out in the open world for location. Imagine them putting a DRM into the old Citadel of Flame map. Bang, it's a new dungeon path.

    With that said, they've improved some over the old dungeon path idea. No need to make four versions of it to make it harder to turn out new ones, and made to be (in theory) soloed if you want.

    Lip synching is just mime karaoke.

  • Randulf.7614Randulf.7614 Member ✭✭✭✭

    DRM's as a concept are fine. As a replacement for a full episode they aren't strong enough or deep enough. Plus they are causing the story to be rushed through in an almost tickbox excerise of things to get through.

    They need to compliment proper episodes or be like Visions as a single filler episode.

    I'm ambivalent about them being used to revamp earlier content.

    What sleep is here? What dreams there are in the unctuous coiling of the snakes mortal shuffling. weapon in my hand. My hand the arcing deathblow at the end of all things. The horror. The horror. I embrace it. . .

  • mindcircus.1506mindcircus.1506 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 27, 2021

    @zealex.9410 said:
    Drms have been an interesting point of discussion so far because to me they feel like a very solid attempt at bridging traditional instanced content and lw story, no, not the strike to raid sort of way but more fundementally of lw content and group content in general.

    I would be really surprised if we dont see all the story of End of Dragons told in this format.
    A few token rewards, and now story missions that only got played once or twice are no longer the biggest waste of the company's development efforts but become something we can redo like fractals.
    It makes good sense and I am all for it.
    I don't however see Anet going back and retooling older content. That kind of action is not something they have a history of doing.

    "We recognize that some players are not able to complete all content." Gaile Gray 01.10.19

  • Linken.6345Linken.6345 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Palador.2170 said:
    While I don't like the DRMs, I do think this is the kind of new content that GW2 has been needing for years. I thought this back when this kind of stuff was called ... you know ... DUNGEONS.

    I mean, the only reason they're not being called that is because they're out in the open world for location. Imagine them putting a DRM into the old Citadel of Flame map. Bang, it's a new dungeon path.

    With that said, they've improved some over the old dungeon path idea. No need to make four versions of it to make it harder to turn out new ones, and made to be (in theory) soloed if you want.

    You do know we will get one in that map going forward right?

  • Bristingr.5034Bristingr.5034 Member ✭✭✭

    Eh, I still prefer big map events (LS1 anyone?) over these. Seriously, blow up DR or something!

  • zealex.9410zealex.9410 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @mindcircus.1506 said:

    @zealex.9410 said:
    Drms have been an interesting point of discussion so far because to me they feel like a very solid attempt at bridging traditional instanced content and lw story, no, not the strike to raid sort of way but more fundementally of lw content and group content in general.

    I would be really surprised if we dont see all the story of End of Dragons told in this format.
    A few token rewards, and now story missions that only got played once or twice are no longer the biggest waste of the company's development efforts but become something we can redo like fractals.
    It makes good sense and I am all for it.
    I don't however see Anet going back and retooling older content. That kind of action is not something they have a history of doing.

    The old content ship has sailed but i dont see why they cant make new lw episodes have this aproach to replayable story.

    Im not advocating to take away the variety of lw stories and mission formats, but they can look at the combat instances in future lw episodes and design them to be similat to drms and afterwards replayable.

  • zealex.9410zealex.9410 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Bristingr.5034 said:
    Eh, I still prefer big map events (LS1 anyone?) over these. Seriously, blow up DR or something!

    Yeah obviously, but im saying we could get it both, drms are glorified story isntances that are replayable and i reckon they are easy to make. Have the traditional lw episode with all its goodies (map, events, story) and use the story missions to make drm esque content out of them for added replayability.

    Taie maybe the big bosses of lw and make a strike out of those too, bam so much added value to lw.

  • I agree, DRMs are a really great concept. I was very happy when I read that instead of a strike mission there will be new repeatable instanced content that can be soloed. So yes, please, Anet, make more DRMs. In IBS, EoD and beyond. Well, possibly under a new name, for missions not about immediate dragon minion attacks, but with the same tech and concept. And before someone jumps on me: CAN be soloed does not mean must be soloed. Existing groups, e.g. guilds or fractal statics, can do them together. And with the optional CMs you can even tune the difficulty level a bit to your liking.

    On paper strike missions sound nice too. But just look at one of the existing threads about strikes, LFG and LI requirements. No need to reiterate all that here, but I, personally, think they have failed their goal and are not content I can enjoy or even participate in on a regular basis. And I know I am not alone. For DRMs I don't need to deal with that.

    I still think some story steps belong into classic, old-style story instances. But for story steps where it fits DRMs are great. Unlike story instances they are easily accessible without restarting the episode and they give some reward for replaying them.

    Could the reward be better? Sure. Is the reward terrible? I don't think so. In addition to the episode currency and prismaticite I get the drops from the mobs and the end chest. Probably not as much as I could get from farming e.g. RIBA, but also less boring that c

    I think some of the existing DRMs need to be tuned a bit better and some fixes here and there. But this is independent of DRMs as a concept.

  • AliamRationem.5172AliamRationem.5172 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Players have asked to revisit core maps, while observing that irrevocably changing them in open world is perhaps not a great idea. Adding sequential story events that oddly occur simultaneously in open world is also not ideal. Instanced content that revisits core maps is a workable solution. There are numerous issues in the execution, but I think it was an attempt to give us something we've been asking for in terms of content delivery.

    It's not enough to carry the story on its own, though. We all know why it was handled this way. It's still a disappointing end to a story that started off strong with the prologue/Grothmar episode.

  • Palador.2170Palador.2170 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Linken.6345 said:

    @Palador.2170 said:
    While I don't like the DRMs, I do think this is the kind of new content that GW2 has been needing for years. I thought this back when this kind of stuff was called ... you know ... DUNGEONS.

    I mean, the only reason they're not being called that is because they're out in the open world for location. Imagine them putting a DRM into the old Citadel of Flame map. Bang, it's a new dungeon path.

    With that said, they've improved some over the old dungeon path idea. No need to make four versions of it to make it harder to turn out new ones, and made to be (in theory) soloed if you want.

    You do know we will get one in that map going forward right?

    No, I did not. But I'd say that just adds to my point.

    Lip synching is just mime karaoke.

  • zealex.9410zealex.9410 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Killerassel.2197 said:
    I agree, DRMs are a really great concept. I was very happy when I read that instead of a strike mission there will be new repeatable instanced content that can be soloed. So yes, please, Anet, make more DRMs. In IBS, EoD and beyond. Well, possibly under a new name, for missions not about immediate dragon minion attacks, but with the same tech and concept. And before someone jumps on me: CAN be soloed does not mean must be soloed. Existing groups, e.g. guilds or fractal statics, can do them together. And with the optional CMs you can even tune the difficulty level a bit to your liking.

    On paper strike missions sound nice too. But just look at one of the existing threads about strikes, LFG and LI requirements. No need to reiterate all that here, but I, personally, think they have failed their goal and are not content I can enjoy or even participate in on a regular basis. And I know I am not alone. For DRMs I don't need to deal with that.

    I still think some story steps belong into classic, old-style story instances. But for story steps where it fits DRMs are great. Unlike story instances they are easily accessible without restarting the episode and they give some reward for replaying them.

    Could the reward be better? Sure. Is the reward terrible? I don't think so. In addition to the episode currency and prismaticite I get the drops from the mobs and the end chest. Probably not as much as I could get from farming e.g. RIBA, but also less boring that c

    I think some of the existing DRMs need to be tuned a bit better and some fixes here and there. But this is independent of DRMs as a concept.

    My idea is that they could have regular lw instances that take advantage of this system. For example think of story missions that feature heavy combat and maybe a boss that are also replayable with rewards and scale from solo to 5.

    That being said i think strikes are also an awesome feature and that they should reuse huge story bosses as strikes. Moving forward id say every lw big endboss or exoac endboss should also come as a strike boss.

  • zealex.9410zealex.9410 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @AliamRationem.5172 said:
    Players have asked to revisit core maps, while observing that irrevocably changing them in open world is perhaps not a great idea. Adding sequential story events that oddly occur simultaneously in open world is also not ideal. Instanced content that revisits core maps is a workable solution. There are numerous issues in the execution, but I think it was an attempt to give us something we've been asking for in terms of content delivery.

    It's not enough to carry the story on its own, though. We all know why it was handled this way. It's still a disappointing end to a story that started off strong with the prologue/Grothmar episode.

    Yeah, i just think that the champions releases are bad despite drms not because of them. Amet has a cool little piece of content here and they shouldnt just abbandon it in eod or se6.

  • Shadowmoon.7986Shadowmoon.7986 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Drms i think solve a problem that anet has had for a long time, that they spend a disproportionate amount of resources on content that the community would as a whole only do once or twice, the living story story instances. They kinda justifies their existence because they have gotten the playerbase to play them alot more than most story instances because of dragon slayer weapons. I think most were expecting a new map, which people have programmed to come with living story updates since ls2.

  • rrusse.7058rrusse.7058 Member ✭✭✭

    @Killerassel.2197 said:
    I agree, DRMs are a really great concept. I was very happy when I read that instead of a strike mission there will be new repeatable instanced content that can be soloed. So yes, please, Anet, make more DRMs. In IBS, EoD and beyond. Well, possibly under a new name, for missions not about immediate dragon minion attacks, but with the same tech and concept. And before someone jumps on me: CAN be soloed does not mean must be soloed. Existing groups, e.g. guilds or fractal statics, can do them together. And with the optional CMs you can even tune the difficulty level a bit to your liking.

    On paper strike missions sound nice too. But just look at one of the existing threads about strikes, LFG and LI requirements. No need to reiterate all that here, but I, personally, think they have failed their goal and are not content I can enjoy or even participate in on a regular basis. And I know I am not alone. For DRMs I don't need to deal with that.

    I still think some story steps belong into classic, old-style story instances. But for story steps where it fits DRMs are great. Unlike story instances they are easily accessible without restarting the episode and they give some reward for replaying them.

    Could the reward be better? Sure. Is the reward terrible? I don't think so. In addition to the episode currency and prismaticite I get the drops from the mobs and the end chest. Probably not as much as I could get from farming e.g. RIBA, but also less boring that c

    I think some of the existing DRMs need to be tuned a bit better and some fixes here and there. But this is independent of DRMs as a concept.

    I like that about DRMs as well.

    Suppose after EoD and we are into LW season 5/Saga 2. DRMs could just become Response Missions and works as sort of mini story instances with repeatable content between LW/Saga episodes to keep the game moving and perhaps give the writers a littler more wiggle room.

    Just a quick mini episode that is repeatable, offers some sort of reward. Can be done in groups or solo and have a Challenge Mode if people want that.

    Zommoros giveth and Zommoros taketh away.

  • Fueki.4753Fueki.4753 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @rrusse.7058 said:
    Suppose after EoD and we are into LW season 5/Saga 2.

    I certainly hope the next season will be called Season 6.
    After all, Season 5 already is the Grindflood Saga.

    DRMs could just become Response Missions and works as sort of mini story instances with repeatable content between LW/Saga episodes to keep the game moving and perhaps give the writers a littler more wiggle room.

    If they put more of them into the game, I hope, it's going to be side content and not story missions.

  • rrusse.7058rrusse.7058 Member ✭✭✭

    @Fueki.4753 said:
    I certainly hope the next season will be called Season 6.
    After all, Season 5 already is the Grindflood Saga.

    The name is irrelevant to the overall quality of the content in my opinion. The naming becomes very important when we consider the perspective of a new player however. If we see something like 'Season 6', that means there are 5 previous seasons I have missed and I dunno if I want to jump in as a new player since there is so much I missed.

    However if it is called something like 'Jade Sea Saga', then I don't have to feel bad about missing the previus content and I can focus on the what is coming to the game currently.

    I see your point though. I would like to see whatever comes after EoD to at least be the quality and cadence of Season 4. Arenanet really knocked it out of the pack back then.

    Zommoros giveth and Zommoros taketh away.

  • Westenev.5289Westenev.5289 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I kind of wish DRM's were less personal than Personal Story, and more like Fractals or Dungeon explore modes. Exposition and story is fine to have, but it gets old fast. Moreso when instance progression halts because the npc's feel the need to stop and read the script...

  • ugrakarma.9416ugrakarma.9416 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 15, 2021

    Worst content, hugely cheap, just copy-past old maps sections, old mobs, cheap rewards, a bit of dialogues, and then, over.. i can make a episode in this way in 30 minutes. DRM are reskin's festival.

    main pvp: Khel the Undead(power reaper).

  • Vancho.8750Vancho.8750 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Strikes and DRMs are a fine concept of reusing story encounters as repayable content, witch is really lacking in the game for some reason. They really need to focus on how to bring content to the game in a way that is not one and done like the old story progression. Having the normal story and then encounter shared between solo story mode, raids, dungeons, strikes,fractals, drms or whatever will be a fine way to save dev time. I still don't understand why they separated everything in its own little universe instead of delivering packed experience for everyone instead of people getting group content once in 2 years.

  • zealex.9410zealex.9410 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Vancho.8750 said:
    Strikes and DRMs are a fine concept of reusing story encounters as repayable content, witch is really lacking in the game for some reason. They really need to focus on how to bring content to the game in a way that is not one and done like the old story progression. Having the normal story and then encounter shared between solo story mode, raids, dungeons, strikes,fractals, drms or whatever will be a fine way to save dev time. I still don't understand why they separated everything in its own little universe instead of delivering packed experience for everyone instead of people getting group content once in 2 years.

    Drms couls be the standard story instances that include combat, strikes could be the climactic or big boss fights of lw in a 10 man format and then whats original is fractals and raida which could still maybe keep their 12 month cadenae because inbetween you are getting strikes and drms. Even better if strikes also had a cm for the hardcore crowd.

    So much content gets made to only be played once and strikes/drms esque systems fix that, however i doubt anet realises this.

  • firedragon.8953firedragon.8953 Member ✭✭✭
    edited February 19, 2021

    I would be happy if they used this system to reanimate the main story plot points of Living World Season 1.

    LVL 80
    Scarlet War cinematic (include note about repayable episodes at Eye of North)
    Mail that Eye of North portal open [currently in game]
    1 DRM style chapter introducing each member of the B Team (e.g., Retake Craigsted with Braham) with a short cinematic when going through gate to establish backstory (Braham rejected help by Eir, etc.).
    A few more DRMs, including the destruction of the old Lions Arch.

    Finally "fix" the giant plot hole that literally has us miss the introduction of the team we are stuck with for the rest of the game. Also implement Scarlet's War achievements, etc. Really sell the new cast, make the story fast paced (something I think DRM style could do well) and leave F2P players wanting more to go buy expansions, etc. The smaller social aspect with both private and public instances is also a nice change from just "solo" or "blob" gameplay which has become common for story and meta content.

  • Fueki.4753Fueki.4753 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @firedragon.8953 said:
    I would be happy if they used this system to reanimate the main story plot points of Living World Season 1.

    They should use the Scrying Pool for that though, not the DRM system.
    There already are parts of Season 1 in the Scrying Pool, just not enough.

  • @Fueki.4753 said:
    They should use the Scrying Pool for that though, not the DRM system.
    There already are parts of Season 1 in the Scrying Pool, just not enough.

    The fundamental flaw with the Scrying Pool is that it is because of Aurene during Icebrood Saga that the pool is activated. So unless the commander finds a way to use the pool before Aurene's Visions of the Past, this does not help with continuity, helping new players continue the story after the core story and before LWS2. Having the commander use the pool pre-HoT may also bring about problems since the commander acts as if they first experience a vision when Aurene introduces it to them. Providing LWS1 content several hundreds of hours after a new player should be introduced to it wasn't the smartest move in my opinion, and honestly the devs have weaved themselves an overly convoluted and poorly structured narrative in doing so. Although I am happy something was partially done to try to correct the plot holes. Visions of the Past: Season One Missions should not be within Icebood Saga, they should be in Season One after watching the cinematic when talking to Ela Makkay.

    We are told the Asuran Gate in the Hall of Monuments is reopened once we hit level 80. We are also prompted to watch that forgetful cinematic in Lions Arch (which should also be made rewatchable by the way) when the first character on an account reaches level 80. Using the gate would be much easier to tie these two things together based on the current world building. But then, yes, we have the problem with the current Scrying Pool episodes. I guess devs could build a new story with some priory scholar group looking to activate the pool and asking you to go out and finding the things like the Blighted Thorn etc. at the Hall of Monuments after the personal story. Then move the Visions of the Past LWS1 episodes to the LWS1 story journal. I don't know how easily this kind of restructuring can happen since there are achievements that players will already have completed.

    Honestly, I am surprised how long this has been neglected. This is literally the finish line in observable story progress where new players who are F2P decide if they want to become paying customers. Imagine playing through the personal story, and thinking, wow, I wonder what happens next. Watching that cinematic. Thinking, "oh that's too bad I can't play it". Then buying LWS2 and the expansions with real money, to only feel super left out of the loop. Then thinking, "maybe I should watch that cinematic again, I don't know who all these members are", but then realizing you can't replay the cinematic (not that it would help much). For me this was a huge turnoff. It made me question the quality of the game and be skeptical of if it would be able to maintain a story line or if there were other giant holes in development. If it wasn't for the community picking up the slack...or rather weaving the rescue rope with their bare hands, I would have left the game because I simply would have lost interest in it. It is also fairly obvious that ArenaNet themselves have now kind of made the story the "selling point" of GW2 and generally make it a central point for each new release. But, it felt like I had to "research" to understand what happened in LWS1 and who my team are, and I am pretty sure many players are likely to feel the same. It is still one of the biggest criticisms of the game from new (and even veteran) players.

  • Firebeard.1746Firebeard.1746 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 20, 2021

    The CMs are beyond frustrating and literally have me very close to quitting this game forever. Specifically snowden drifts and FoR. The CM for the first few are fine, and Doric are fine. Tp is borderline, it still feels awful but is more doable. Unfortunately the PVE design team thinks a good encounter is a frustrating one.

    Also the above CM DRMs have given me some of my most toxic GW2 moments ever.

  • SexyMofo.8923SexyMofo.8923 Member ✭✭✭

    Of course they have a place: in the trash can where they belong. They are a great example of horrible game design. I hope the devs learned a lot.

  • Linken.6345Linken.6345 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @SexyMofo.8923 said:
    Of course they have a place: in the trash can where they belong. They are a great example of horrible game design. I hope the devs learned a lot.

    Dont trash the 1 dev they had on this task mate its quite rude.

  • Mortifera.6138Mortifera.6138 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Don’t Remind Me.