Jump to content
  • Sign Up

Advice on how to be less bad in sPvP


DoomNexus.5324

Recommended Posts

TL;DR:If you don't know where and when to rotate, play it safe and don't get greedy. Simply getting more points than the opponent is sufficient for winning, there's no need to force a triple cap at all cost. Even if you can't make the best possible decisions, it's already an improvement to not make the worst possible decisions. Helping your team win fights and gain map control should be the top priority.This comment is targetted at lower elo players to avoid making some of the least helpful decisions, nothing more. You don't have to be perfect instantly, "being less bad" than in the previous match is already an improvement.

Original/Full comment:Guys please.. If you don't know what you are doing then pls forget that far even exists. (I'm excluding side noders, roamers,... obviously.. or special occasions where you have map control and can snowball to the third point and stuff.. if you actually know how to rotate then go for far, please, this "rant" is not aimed at you then..)

Actually.. who the kitten cares about balance if PvP is crowded with people forcing silver rotations.. This is ultimately what loses a match..Do not constantly roam off to far and leave your team outnumbered on the rest of the map. Especially with a roamer on your team!Doesn't matter which node it is, if you don't already snowball enough to go for triple cap, do not roam to the third node.. Play 2 nodes be it close/mid, mid/far, close/far, doesn't matter..I'll continue with far since it's the most common case... If you are roaming off to far you are actively denying your own roamer by keeping the enemy's attention on that node, which makes it practically impossible to decap the point.Focus on a 2 cap, this is sufficient for the win, don't get greedy.. If you have 2 cap with a third neutral then this is already really good!This also doesn't only apply to roaming but to bunker as well.. If you have a bunker in the enemy team who just camps a node then let them.. They are practically throwing the game by allowing you to powerplay the other 2 nodes in a 5v4. Punish it if they leave the node but don't waste your time there. The only reason why this is an actually successful strat is because there are SO MANY players who will happily waste their time contesting the node, possibly even when they already capped it (not even neutral or defending your cap).

Also: You don't need to IMMEDIATELY decap far as soon as it's in enemy hands.. Focus on winning the team fight first and snowballing the map.. THEN you can roam to decap.. It doesn't mean you have to kill everybody on the map first either but make sure your team is either able to win the team fight before you leave or if there is no chance of winning then everybody should not commit to the fight anyway.. You won't gain anything from dying, even if you capped the node, if this means you lose the other two nodes and die because they can zerg you down afterwards then it wasn't worth it..And if the enemy team has complete map control then regroup with your team and don't stubbornly push all three nodes in the hope of splitting their attention enough to make it work.. Splitting your opponent's attention is what your roamer is supposed to do.. That's their job in the entire match, if the situation allows for it.. Zerg down the one or two guys on close (or whatever point) and use that 5v4 / 5v3 to your advantage..

The essence:Doesn't matter if it's far, mid or close, If you can't even hold 2 points for more than 2 seconds, don't push all three!

Also don't constantly push into enemies that counter you ffs. Know your matchups and disengage and be useful somewhere else, instead of wasting your time, waiting for your team to come and help you..No joke, EVERY SINGLE match I've lost in this season and the vast majority of matches I've lost in the previous season were because someone kept on pushing the third node.. We were outnumbered in every single team fight and had no chance of gaining back map control.Also don't get mad at other people if you can't rotate properly. Thanks. Especially not at your roamer when it's actually you who are to blame for making his job impossible.And yes, I'm aware that this thread will be FLOODED with l2p comments and trying to counter argument, but this is exactly the reason why I finally pushed this thread out there. There are just too many players in PvP who don't understand basic rotations and more often than not these are the people who get toxic and blame everyone else.. And the worst: They think they are actually good and blame everything on "gOlD eLo HeLl" but refuse to accept that they are stuck in gold because they don't understand the game mode.. This however is not only an issue in silver/gold but actually sometimes in plat, just not nearly as pronounced..

Link to comment
Share on other sites

This is the post everyone needs. My blood pressure would rise every freaking time our home capper makes a beeline for far, allowing us all to die and ceding map control to the enemy team at start. It's rare that a team that doesn't have map control in numbers actually wins a match. In order for that the work, the enemy team needs collective ADD.

Also though, if your team is more dead than the enemy team, capping undefended points and/or decapping is the modus operandi, not rushing mid in 1v4s.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I've noticed going far at match start is a popular strategy to some for players for some reason in plat 1 and g3, I don't understand the reasoning unless I'm missing something, all it does is leave mid 3v4 which ends up the enemies owning far and mid cuz 9/10 times the player that ran far dies to the enemy on far then shortly after mid is 3v5 or at best 4vs5 or that enemies just goes to ur home and decaps it lol.Who started this going far at start tactic?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@Psycoprophet.8107 said:I've noticed going far at match start is a popular strategy to some for players for some reason in plat 1 and g3, I don't understand the reasoning unless I'm missing something, all it does is leave mid 3v4 which ends up the enemies owning far and mid cuz 9/10 times the player that ran far dies to the enemy on far then shortly after mid is 3v5 or at best 4vs5 or that enemies just goes to ur home and decaps it lol.Who started this going far at start tactic?

This actually works because of what I was saying here:

@DoomNexus.5324 said:Zerg down the one or two guys on close (or whatever point) and use that 5v4 / 5v3 to your advantage..

You kill the guy at far, usually either by sending a side noder (that's expected to win a 1v1) or 2 guys to far.. alternatively you are lucky and their thief went to their close then it should be an easy job.. that's actually a good reason to NOT send thief to close at start. High risk, medium reward imho.. Thief will obviously be a tiny bit faster at close and can join the mid fight a bit faster but on the other hand you are almost guaranteed to lose close if the enemy sends someone. It's pretty unlikely for the thief to win a 1v1 let alone a 1v2 so it is almost always a waste of time to stay. That's actually another advice I would give any thief in this situation: just disengage to mid and +1 there.. Like I said in my opening:

@DoomNexus.5324 said:Know your matchups and disengage and be useful somewhere else, instead of wasting your time, waiting for your team to come and help you..That's honestly a mistake I've made two matches ago (prior to writing this) so.. yea, I don't claim to be perfect and on legendary skill level or anything but I know a bit of stuff too and at least I'm recognizing my mistakes and try to improve on it (I don't think it's worth anything tbh but I used to be top 250 for several seasons around the time of season 16 with peak into top 100 if someone's interested - never managed to actually end the season there so yea.. unfortunately no achievements or titles)

Anyway: For this whole far-at-start-tactic to work you obviously need to win the far fight (fast), that's why often times there's a "team fighter" (basically any class other than teef tbh) or side noder and a +1 who roams off to mid as soon as far goes down.Close may stay open, depending on the matchup.. Forcing a 2v1 on far and trying to stall a 3v4 on mid.. sometimes one of the opponents will also go far in this scenario then it's probably a 3v3 on mid which is even better.With far being "secured" the roamer can go +1 mid and you essentially gain early map dominance. The key obviously is to keep it, this needs reactive play and good game sense/decision making on what to def and where to go after the enemy comes out of the spawn again.Another approach for the far-at-start-tactic is to go there as a bunker and immediately waste someone's time because especially at the start people tend to overstay on the node they want to cap (like I did as previously mentioned).

As a friendly reminder tho since I've just discussed this topic with a streamer: I'm not saying "NEVER GO FAR!!1!1 OMEGALUL".. There are obviously numerous exceptions like the early far strat, side noder, decapping as roamer, ... maybe you can roam off to far because mid won't be attacked for a while because opponents are on respawn and your roamer is caught up in a +1 on close or something.. but they all have something in common: There's reasoning behind it. If someone's just going far because there's no ally already then that's a bad reason.. That's what my first couple lines tried to clarify: As long as you know what you are doing it's fine. Always have an eye on the map and roughly keep in mind when enemies will come out of their spawn after you've won a team fight.. Sometimes you can kill one or two pretty early in the team fight but the third one can face tank a lot more or kite or whatever.. Happened a lot of times too that when the last guy finally died, team mates instantly roamed off to far or close because there was no enemy at mid at the moment. As soon as they went off node the respawned opponents reached mid and were able to decap..

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@Psycoprophet.8107 said:(...)Who started this going far at start tactic?

The right players on the right builds. :wink:

@OP:It is not that easy. 1-3-1 is a quite popular opening, possibly even 1-2-2 with 2 taking far. It depends on your composition and the enemy's. Going far during the game can additionally depend on the overall map situation, respawns and builds. Don't "never go far" just as don't "always fight on point". Learn when to go far and when to draw enemies somewhere else. Learn when to stall on point and when to disengage. And, most importantly, learn which composition works how and act accordingly.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Btw thanks for the positive comments, I already saw that there were some replies but I've avoided reading them due to fully expecting an absolute kittenshow in the comments ngl.

@"Megametzler.5729" said:It is not that easy. 1-3-1 is a quite popular opening, possibly even 1-2-2 with 2 taking far. It depends on your composition and the enemy's. Going far during the game can additionally depend on the overall map situation, respawns and builds. Don't "never go far" just as don't "always fight on point". Learn when to go far and when to draw enemies somewhere else. Learn when to stall on point and when to disengage. And, most importantly, learn which composition works how and act accordingly.

Exactly. I've tried to elaborate on this a bit further in my second comment (just a minute posted before your one :D )

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@DoomNexus.5324 said:

@Psycoprophet.8107 said:I've noticed going far at match start is a popular strategy to some for players for some reason in plat 1 and g3, I don't understand the reasoning unless I'm missing something, all it does is leave mid 3v4 which ends up the enemies owning far and mid cuz 9/10 times the player that ran far dies to the enemy on far then shortly after mid is 3v5 or at best 4vs5 or that enemies just goes to ur home and decaps it lol.Who started this going far at start tactic?

This actually works because of what I was saying here:

@DoomNexus.5324 said:Zerg down the one or two guys on close (or whatever point) and use that 5v4 / 5v3 to your advantage..

You kill the guy at far, usually either by sending a side noder (that's expected to win a 1v1) or 2 guys to far.. alternatively you are lucky and their thief went to their close then it should be an easy job.. that's actually a good reason to NOT send thief to close at start. High risk, medium reward imho.. Thief will obviously be a tiny bit faster at close and can join the mid fight a bit faster but on the other hand you are almost guaranteed to lose close if the enemy sends someone. It's pretty unlikely for the thief to win a 1v1 let alone a 1v2 so it is almost always a waste of time to stay. That's actually another advice I would give any thief in this situation: just disengage to mid and +1 there.. Like I said in my opening:

@DoomNexus.5324 said:Know your matchups and disengage and be useful somewhere else, instead of wasting your time, waiting for your team to come and help you..That's honestly a mistake I've made two matches ago (prior to writing this) so.. yea, I don't claim to be perfect and on legendary skill level or anything but I know a bit of stuff too and at least I'm recognizing my mistakes and try to improve on it (I don't think it's worth anything tbh but I used to be top 250 for several seasons around the time of season 16 with peak into top 100 if someone's interested - never managed to actually end the season there so yea.. unfortunately no achievements or titles)

Anyway: For this whole far-at-start-tactic to work you obviously need to win the far fight (fast), that's why often times there's a "team fighter" (basically any class other than teef tbh) or side noder and a +1 who roams off to mid as soon as far goes down.Close may stay open, depending on the matchup.. Forcing a 2v1 on far and trying to stall a 3v4 on mid.. sometimes one of the opponents will also go far in this scenario then it's probably a 3v3 on mid which is even better.With far being "secured" the roamer can go +1 mid and you essentially gain early map dominance. The key obviously is to keep it, this needs reactive play and good game sense/decision making on what to def and where to go after the enemy comes out of the spawn again.Another approach for the far-at-start-tactic is to go there as a bunker and immediately waste someone's time because especially at the start people tend to overstay on the node they want to cap (like I did as previously mentioned).

As a friendly reminder tho since I've just discussed this topic with a streamer: I'm not saying "NEVER GO FAR!!1!1 OMEGALUL".. There are obviously numerous exceptions like the early far strat, side noder, decapping as roamer, ... maybe you can roam off to far because mid won't be attacked for a while because opponents are on respawn and your roamer is caught up in a +1 on close or something.. but they all have something in common: There's reasoning behind it. If someone's just going far because there's no ally already then that's a bad reason.. That's what my first couple lines tried to clarify: As long as you know what you are doing it's fine. Always have an eye on the map and roughly keep in mind when enemies will come out of their spawn after you've won a team fight.. Sometimes you can kill one or two pretty early in the team fight but the third one can face tank a lot more or kite or whatever.. Happened a lot of times too that when the last guy finally died, team mates instantly roamed off to far or close because there was no enemy at mid
at the moment
. As soon as they went off node the respawned opponents reached mid and were able to decap..

Problem is more often than not the teammate that goes far dies resulting in just leaving mid outnumbered from the start, I get how I'd work if the teammate was successful but they usually aren't.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@DoomNexus.5324 said:(...)Exactly. I've tried to elaborate on this a bit further in my second comment (just a minute posted before your one :D )

True, you must've been writing in parallel. :lol: And you're right of course, but maybe you could've elaborated this a little... shorter? This is the internet after all. People - including me, to my shame - don't have the patience to read through long texts... :lol:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

In almost every game no one of my team take our close back after it is decapped. Everyone is running far after mid. And yes, almost every game someone is going far at start and dies usually. Why no one cares close this times? I am g3 atm and the games feel so brainless. SoloQ in gold is absolut horror.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Most top players do exactly what you are trying to stop, pushing far directly or from close to far into a 1v1 they know they will win and if they get +1‘ed, they stall through kiting and jumping puzzles in order to bind people in a 2v1, while the rest of the map falls into their hands in a 4v3, winning them the match. You pretend like they are afk‘ing on point and leaving the rest up for slaughter when in reality they are in a 1v1 or 2v1 at far 90% of the time with the exception when they defeat an enemy, whom they basically spawn camp from that point on, leaving the rest of you in a 4v4 while one point is constantly ticking in your favor

This whole talk of „only play close and mid“ is typical gold division talk - players who get baited in a 2v1 or 3v1 at their close against one tanky scrapper/decap druid/soulbeast/spellbreaker/weaver and lose the rest of the map, because they refuse to send someone far are daily proof of that. Playing sides will always be more strategically favorable than playing close and mid

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@Grimjack.8130 said:blanket statements arent helpful :)

@snoow.1694 said:Most top players do exactly what you are trying to stop, pushing far directly or from close to far into a 1v1 they know they will win and if they get +1‘ed, they stall through kiting and jumping puzzles in order to bind people in a 2v1, while the rest of the map falls into their hands in a 4v3, winning them the match. You pretend like they are afk‘ing on point and leaving the rest up for slaughter when in reality they are in a 1v1 or 2v1 at far 90% of the time with the exception when they defeat an enemy, whom they basically spawn camp from that point on, leaving the rest of you in a 4v4 while one point is constantly ticking in your favor

This whole talk of „only play close and mid“ is typical gold division talk - players who get baited in a 2v1 or 3v1 at their close against one tanky scrapper/decap druid/soulbeast/spellbreaker/weaver and lose the rest of the map, because they refuse to send someone far are daily proof of that. Playing sides will always be more strategically favorable than playing close and mid

@"Trevor Boyer.6524" said:Eeeeeeeh

You don't "always push far" or "never push far", it's more complex than that. You need to know when it's a good idea to open an initial split with a far push and when it would be a bad idea to open the initial split with a far push. It's all situational.

To address everything at once:This is not supposed to be blanket statement (well kind of actually, but the essence of my blanket statement would be: "If you don't know your strat is working out then play it safe, don't get greedy"), nor is it written as a black-and-white advice like "always/never push far" nor is it meant to educate top players. They know what they are doing and I've admitted in the very first paragraph of my initial comment that there are numerous times where you DO want to go for the third node and that this all is situational.However I'm not trying to give advice on how to make the best decisions and elaborate on every situation where you would go for the third node but it's rather meant specifically for low elo players to avoid making the worst possible decisions.. Like for example leaving a team fight prematurely just because the enemy holds far for more than a second, resulting in being outnumbered on the rest of the map and completely losing map control. You wouldn't find this kind of decision making on top players in the first place... they usually know when their team can deal with the rest in a team fight and leave to push another node, etc..Like I said, if you know what you are doing and bad rotations aren't an issue in your matches then this is not an advice meant for you..

@edit: Thanks for the criticism tho, I'm taking that constructively and I've added a TLDR clarification at the top of my initial post since I don't want anybody to think that this is meant as some guideline to git gut or be complete or anything.. It's just a suggestion on how to "suck less".

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@"Trevor Boyer.6524" said:Eeeeeeeh

You don't "always push far" or "never push far", it's more complex than that. You need to know when it's a good idea to open an initial split with a far push and when it would be a bad idea to open the initial split with a far push. It's all situational.

Long story short - correct! And for this you don't need an oversized wall of text (which some(one) build up, where you fall asleep in between while reading - rather skimming). It doesn't need more content than this post or information! Please pin it. Thanks. :)

The rest is a l2p issue (talk - more - about that instead, in general).

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@"Trevor Boyer.6524" said:Eeeeeeeh

You don't "always push far" or "never push far", it's more complex than that. You need to know when it's a good idea to open an initial split with a far push and when it would be a bad idea to open the initial split with a far push. It's all situational.

It's almost like you'd have to spend a lot of time actually playing PvP in this game before making the right calls becomes obvious to you. I was led to believe that only total noobs make the wrong decisions!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Losing an unrecoverable mid? Attempt to decap far or go back home to defend if someone already does it. Commit to cap if viable and defend from respawns 1v1.

Players on respawn from mid will take care of home, far no longer possible? Fall back to mid for a back cap / help team that should have home secure by now.

Dying in the process? Teamwork your way home after respawn if it's not been won already or head mid to team fight and win it. Should be able to rinse and repeat from there.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@Shao.7236 said:Losing an unrecoverable mid? Attempt to decap far or go back home to defend if someone already does it. Commit to cap if viable and defend from respawns 1v1.

Players on respawn from mid will take care of home, far no longer possible? Fall back to mid for a back cap / help team that should have home secure by now.

Dying in the process? Teamwork your way home after respawn if it's not been won already or head mid to team fight and win it. Should be able to rinse and repeat from there.

Except if most of your team dies in that mid, you better bet you'll get chased far and killed and now they have mid and far. That's basically the problem when people rush far at start, leaving your team in a 3v4 situation is a bad idea because more than likely they'll die. The strategy really only works if the enemy team is doing the same thing. But most of the time what I've seen is the enemy team's home capper is smart, lands a few really high damaging abilities in MID to throw for them, then goes.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

How would you break this down into an easy copy-pastable line to make bad thiefs/etc at lower ranks understand this easier?

@snoow.1694 said:Most top players do exactly what you are trying to stop, pushing far directly or from close to far into a 1v1 they know they will win and if they get +1‘ed, they stall through kiting and jumping puzzles in order to bind people in a 2v1, while the rest of the map falls into their hands in a 4v3, winning them the match. You pretend like they are afk‘ing on point and leaving the rest up for slaughter when in reality they are in a 1v1 or 2v1 at far 90% of the time with the exception when they defeat an enemy, whom they basically spawn camp from that point on, leaving the rest of you in a 4v4 while one point is constantly ticking in your favor

Again, top players. Anyone in low plat or below isn't a top player. The #1 cause for matches being lost is ANet refusing to deal with the bots that swamp almost every game in bot and silver. After this is a mesmer or thief who does nothing but run far and die over and over while the rest of their team gets 5v4'd or 4v3'd mid. For the vast majority of people who play PVP, OP's advice is correct.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

i agree with OP also, while snoow has a point surely. just that amount of tactics u just don't get while laddering from silver, gold on... people there often won't take close and mid even if u bind three enemies on you for some time - because it's maybe and ele and a reaper/necro and they cannot handle the combo of stunlocks and dps

the best are the ones that run around like headless chicken, add in yet won 1v1s and mark random players as target. like marking the bulkiest kiting classes for targets is such a odd thing. kinda wish the target-calling would be deactived in spvp.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@Metzie.3012 said:

@"Trevor Boyer.6524" said:Eeeeeeeh

You don't "always push far" or "never push far", it's more complex than that. You need to know when it's a good idea to open an initial split with a far push and when it would be a bad idea to open the initial split with a far push. It's all situational.

Long story short - correct! And for this you don't need an oversized wall of text (which some(one) build up, where you fall asleep in between while reading - rather skimming). It doesn't need more content than this post or information! Please pin it. Thanks. :)

The rest is a l2p issue (talk - more - about that instead, in general).

Here's an even shorter advice: "Just do it correctly".There you go, never have to read a guide or anything ever again.. I'm sure you will NEVER fail with anything in your life from now on. You're welcome.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@Firebeard.1746 said:

@Shao.7236 said:Losing an unrecoverable mid? Attempt to decap far or go back home to defend if someone already does it. Commit to cap if viable and defend from respawns 1v1.

Players on respawn from mid will take care of home, far no longer possible? Fall back to mid for a back cap / help team that should have home secure by now.

Dying in the process? Teamwork your way home after respawn if it's not been won already or head mid to team fight and win it. Should be able to rinse and repeat from there.

Except if most of your team dies in that mid, you better bet you'll get chased far and killed and now they have mid and far. That's basically the problem when people rush far at start, leaving your team in a 3v4 situation is a bad idea because more than likely they'll die. The strategy really only works if the enemy team is doing the same thing. But most of the time what I've seen is the enemy team's home capper is smart, lands a few really high damaging abilities in MID to throw for them, then goes.

This all depends. If the team fighting the teamfight at or near the mid node die without trying to disengage or peel for each other (especially if the mid fight is outnumbered) then that's their own fault. If you have a 1-3-1 split, then the team should expect to be outnumbered at mid and proceed with caution until A) the enemy made the same split as you and you can attempt to match the split (mini map awareness), or B ) your far pusher wins that fight at far to secure that node and then either the home capper or the far pusher rotates to home to secure the teamfight at or near mid. You might lose mid in the process but you cap 2 other nodes so it's ok.

Of course, this is only one of many situations and it's all very volatile, things can change midway and it's up to the individual player to have the skills necessary to spot the changes as the match progresses. An issue with many players is they're extremely stagnant in their strategy, unwilling to adjust on the fly while playing. Because lets face it: in gw2 pvp, it's very common for one strategy that was working a moment ago to all of a sudden flip and not work because the enemy adjusted their strategy to combat yours, which then results in a match going from snowballing the enemy to slowly getting snowballed by the enemy.

Be open to change, always be ready to change, and work with your team to change to ensure your victory.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
×
×
  • Create New...