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Snowden CM

I am just going to ask this (hope anet responds vs players but doubtful) is this working as intended or issue; i can't quite tell.

If anyone has a comp that works be interested in hearing what it is. Can save the obligatory (just run fractal build) responses that aren't useful, not looking for a carry looking for how it is beaten. youtube videos dont show the actual skills

<1

Comments

  • Ayrilana.1396Ayrilana.1396 Member ✭✭✭✭

    The break bar is bugged as the boss can still gets boons if it's broken too quickly which significantly increases its damage output. Other than that, everything else is fine.

  • SASHI.7260SASHI.7260 Member ✭✭
    edited February 1, 2021

    For group comp. I would suggest running either a power reaper /. mesmer for boon strip. (you can go with alac too if you want but we kinda need damage and not CC cause as @Ayrilana.1396 said, the CC is kinda bugged). You can also do with a spellbreaker but the number of boons you'll be stripping is a wee bit tad too much for a single spellbreaker.

    For heal, its healbrand that can time aegis procs for that 3rd auto hit chain and the icicles popping on the ground - for insurance since both of these are telegraphed. (although both of those deal high damage that it can down a player instantly - seriously, why anet implemented this on top of the ice barrage on top of ryland at mid phase of 75%-30% is beyond me. This is already considering that the area is smol with a lot of pillars, attacks are telegraph and sometimes if you are unlucky, all avenue of the dodge for the 3rd hit will lead you to an icicle popping out downing you with 25K damage.).

    For DPS, anything can work as long a #1, they can comfortably hit ryland thru his mechanics. and #2) do a minimum of like 7K - 10K dps. (the dps gate is kinda low to be honest as long as you don't wipe and get to ryland at like the 7-8min mark. Just remember to kill fast and apply swiftness to the NPC during the escort portion).

    All in all for comp wise, you want to run either a reaper / mesmer for boon strip (reaper with corrupt boon or scepter 3 or something, mesmer with disenchant + domi traitline). Healbrand for heals (blocks, quickness, protection, cleanse, regen, might), DPS of any kind that can comfy hit ryland while taking his mechanics into consideration (holosmith, dragon hunter, daredevil, etc. etc.)

    For guideline, the comp me and my friends ran was a Spellbreaker that manage to hold ryland in place. A mesmer that does the strip with the spellbreaker, a holo that dps, a healbrand and a reaper. (its not meta mind you but it worked for us). Hope this helps

  • Blocki.4931Blocki.4931 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @SASHI.7260 said:
    For group comp. I would suggest running either a power reaper /. mesmer for boon strip. (you can go with alac too if you want but we kinda need damage and not CC cause as @Ayrilana.1396 said, the CC is kinda bugged). You can also do with a spellbreaker but the number of boons you'll be stripping is a wee bit tad too much for a single spellbreaker.

    For heal, its healbrand that can time aegis procs for that 3rd auto hit chain and the icicles popping on the ground - for insurance since both of these are telegraphed. (although both of those deal high damage that it can down a player instantly - seriously, why anet implemented this on top of the ice barrage on top of ryland at mid phase of 75%-30% is beyond me. This is already considering that the area is smol with a lot of pillars, attacks are telegraph and sometimes if you are unlucky, all avenue of the dodge for the 3rd hit will lead you to an icicle popping out downing you with 25K damage.).

    For DPS, anything can work as long a #1, they can comfortably hit ryland thru his mechanics. and #2) do a minimum of like 7K - 10K dps. (the dps gate is kinda low to be honest as long as you don't wipe and get to ryland at like the 7-8min mark. Just remember to kill fast and apply swiftness to the NPC during the escort portion).

    All in all for comp wise, you want to run either a reaper / mesmer for boon strip (reaper with corrupt boon or scepter 3 or something, mesmer with disenchant + domi traitline). Healbrand for heals (blocks, quickness, protection, cleanse, regen, might), DPS of any kind that can comfy hit ryland while taking his mechanics into consideration (holosmith, dragon hunter, daredevil, etc. etc.)

    For guideline, the comp me and my friends ran was a Spellbreaker that manage to hold ryland in place. A mesmer that does the strip with the spellbreaker, a holo that dps, a healbrand and a reaper. (its not meta mind you but it worked for us). Hope this helps

    Boon stripping is perfect for a spellbreaker. Break Enchantments removes 3 boons, all it takes is one cc skill to cover the rest thanks to traits and they can do it solo.

    Pls just permaban me by now so I can stop going back here

  • SASHI.7260SASHI.7260 Member ✭✭
    edited February 1, 2021

    @Blocki.4931 said:
    Boon stripping is perfect for a spellbreaker. Break Enchantments removes 3 boons, all it takes is one cc skill to cover the rest thanks to traits and they can do it solo.

    Break enchantment remove 2 by default + 1 from loss aversion sorry this was supposed to be Enchantment Collapse. if they have other enemies near them that has boons to be strip. Break Enchantment is also NOT a control skill so the +1 from the major trait line on spellbreaker wont activate. Sure u can fully strip ryland with dagger main hand (3 + F1) and a Bullscharge to rotate with an A/A subset. but considering how many ppl dont do that anymore i opt to not add that in the explanation and just say its a Bit Tad Many for spellbreaker (which at this point is false :P )

    And yes, you can solo with spellbreaker (since I am solo-ing with it for like a week and a half now on all DRM CM). But the question here was "As a Group" So i responded as a group hence I answered as a group comp.

  • Blocki.4931Blocki.4931 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 1, 2021

    @SASHI.7260 said:

    @Blocki.4931 said:
    Boon stripping is perfect for a spellbreaker. Break Enchantments removes 3 boons, all it takes is one cc skill to cover the rest thanks to traits and they can do it solo.

    Break enchantment remove 2 by default + 1 from loss aversion sorry this was supposed to be Enchantment Collapse. if they have other enemies near them that has boons to be strip. Break Enchantment is also NOT a control skill so the +1 from the major trait line on spellbreaker wont activate. Sure u can fully strip ryland with dagger main hand (3 + F1) and a Bullscharge to rotate with an A/A subset. but considering how many ppl dont do that anymore i opt to not add that in the explanation and just say its a Bit Tad Many for spellbreaker (which at this point is false :P )

    And yes, you can solo with spellbreaker (since I am solo-ing with it for like a week and a half now on all DRM CM). But the question here was "As a Group" So i responded as a group hence I answered as a group comp.

    Break Enchantments + 1 cc skill is enough. I've done this countless times solo, unless he gets more boons with more people in which case forget I ever said anything. I have done this with Greatsword + Axe Axe, only using BE + Bulls.

    Just wanted to say one person can definitely cover it, but obviously more is always helpful. Didn't mean to come off as antagonistic or something.

    Pls just permaban me by now so I can stop going back here

  • @Blocki.4931 said:
    Break Enchantments + 1 cc skill is enough. I've done this countless times solo, unless he gets more boons with more people. I have done this with Greatsword + Axe Axe.

    it is enough for solo. on 5man, rylands AA hit is around 5K on prot, 7K without. the icicle barrage is around 3K if hit. the 3rd hit and the icicles on the ground does like 25K-ish dmge (literally downs you the moment it connects). Has higher health pool compared to solo. Hence you want to remove the 25 might he gets after the channel spell fast and as far as I noticed. Break Enchantments and a CC skill together with F2 (since he sometimes does the channel to the spin attack) leaves the 25might boon. (this is not an issue on solo since ryland's AA dmge there is around 2-3K only)

    The boon removal has no priority as far as I know since you can probably remove the 25might on your break enchantment on time, then you wont be able to remove it even after break enchantment + CC + F2.

    Also you gotta consider that since u have 4 extra ppl, a lot of them might get hit by ryland's random AOEs thus downing them thus ppl reasing leading to a down chain leading to a wipe. And since its a 5man scaling, you need to group's dps.

    But why are you pushing for SOLO situation at this point though? You gotta consider that the thread owner is ASKING for a GROUP not SOLO. Solo is different since you only have your own skill to rely on.

  • Ashantara.8731Ashantara.8731 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 1, 2021

    Besides the many helpful tips already posted on how to weaken the damage, you can also use the mechanics to your advantage: dodge the growing orange circle before it explodes, stand in the safe spots in between AoE markers (e.g., the one that's right under Ryland's feet), get behind him when he triggers his AoE cones.

  • Susy.7529Susy.7529 Member ✭✭✭

    A superspeed scrapper for escort who can change to holo dps at boss and you're done.

  • @Susy.7529 said:
    A superspeed scrapper for escort who can change to holo dps at boss and you're done.

    don't even need to use scapper spec, holo can give superspeed too

    Carcharoth Lucian/Mini Chibii
    Ruin of Surmia world
    PvE : [CdL] Les Chasseurs De Légendes
    WvW : [MIMs] Mobile Ingénieuse Et Marteau

  • Infusion.7149Infusion.7149 Member ✭✭✭✭

    https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/122824/game-update-notes-february-2-2021
    As I predicted, the breakbar behavior was unintended.
    Fixed a bug that caused the champion boss of the Snowden Drifts Dragon Response Mission to be interrupted but not stunned when its defiance bar was depleted.

  • Ayrilana.1396Ayrilana.1396 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I’m curious to see if more random pugs will be able to beat it now.

  • @Infusion.7149 said:
    https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/122824/game-update-notes-february-2-2021
    As I predicted, the breakbar behavior was unintended.
    Fixed a bug that caused the champion boss of the Snowden Drifts Dragon Response Mission to be interrupted but not stunned when its defiance bar was depleted.

    Sadly, using an EMP still gives Ryland all those boons. Tried it in both a DRM without any CMs and in one with all CMs active.

    Furthermore, Ryland can still immediately act after his CC bar is broken (not stunned).

  • Ayrilana.1396Ayrilana.1396 Member ✭✭✭✭

    So another two more weeks to wait for an eventual fix.

  • Blude.6812Blude.6812 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:
    So another two more weeks to wait for an eventual fix.

    Wishful thinking??

  • Ayrilana.1396Ayrilana.1396 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Blude.6812 said:

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:
    So another two more weeks to wait for an eventual fix.

    Wishful thinking??

    Pretty much.

  • @Ayrilana.1396 said:
    So another two more weeks to wait for an eventual fix.

    Maybe not. I tested it with the EMP. We don't know if busting Ryland's CC bar with normal CC breakers works as intended (stunned, no boons). Anyone try that yet?

    Going down the boon-stripping route, I tried Superior Sigil of Absorption and/or Superior Sigil of Nullification on my Berserker's rifle. More than his 25 stacks of Might, it's Ryland's Protection that's the bigger problem since CM runs are on a timer. Ryland is a melee fighter, so staying away and always moving is enough to keep players alive. I tried it solo and it did make a difference, stripping boons often enough, but sadly wasn't enough for me to make it. :'( I even tried to 2-man it with those runes, me a glass cannon ranged Berserker and with a Deadeye, but it wasn't enough. My attempt didn't work, but maybe those two sigils can help other people's comps? :/

  • Ayrilana.1396Ayrilana.1396 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Messenger.7450 said:
    Going down the boon-stripping route, I tried Superior Sigil of Absorption and/or Superior Sigil of Nullification on my Berserker's rifle.

    I thought about going that route when I eventually get in the mood to solo it.

    More than his 25 stacks of Might, it's Ryland's Protection that's the bigger problem since CM runs are on a timer.

    I can see that since isn’t protection the lowest in priority to be stripped?

    Ryland is a melee fighter, so staying away and always moving is enough to keep players alive. I tried it solo and it did make a difference, stripping boons often enough, but sadly wasn't enough for me to make it. :'( I even tried to 2-man it with those runes, me a glass cannon ranged Berserker and with a Deadeye, but it wasn't enough. My attempt didn't work, but maybe those two sigils can help other people's comps? :/

    The issue with ranged is that it’s usually inferior to melee DPS. With how terrible the average player’s DPS is in melee, it’ll be even worse at range. With the CM having the timer, this causes an issue.

    Doing the fight in melee isn’t that bad so long as you’re not just using your dodges at whim. You use a dodge for the large expanding rifle AoE and another for the cone attack. The smaller circles that surround much of the room can be avoid by walking to the side of the boss which is safe. There will always be one side of the boss which is safe.

  • Link.6157Link.6157 Member ✭✭

    Don't know if it is in every game mode but there are just to many moments with extreme skill lagg/ping in these DRM to even try this solo, to many times i see Ryland just sliding all over the place, while i'm getting hit when outside of aoe and during dodges. Still, i'd rather play them with a party. These DRM with CM should be doable with a little set up from lfg group, the others i find perfect dificulty and timing (FoR), unless the breakbarr fix will help alot this needs a bit more time on the clock. BB not fixed in the last small update either.

  • Ayrilana.1396Ayrilana.1396 Member ✭✭✭✭

    The breakbar fix should help as the boss having those boons increases its damage output while also decreasing the damage players can do to it. The easiest solution seems to be to bring a necro to constantly strip/corrupt the boons.

  • Tony.8659Tony.8659 Member ✭✭✭
    edited February 4, 2021

    Problem is we really can't attack head on, Ryland keeps throwing stuff all over. Timer is counting down and still waiting to attack how about Anet reduce that. You think it's easy to put up LFG snowden all cms and win LMAO . Only have 2/5 done since the update launched. All other DRMs are done 5/5. If they think this is accessible for everyone that want's the achieve points , they must be on another planet xD. I feel bad for newer players that want the achieve points in the story but Anet makes some of the DRMs extremely hard. DRMs are not fun at all, if I didn't need the achieve points (940 left until 30K \o/) all DRMs I wouldn't even bother at all with. Just do the story and next... Been here since April 2012 1st public beta and pretty disappointed in this living story chapter and most likely we get the same come March then I think May again. Grind Wars 2 lol. If any of this content is in the new expansion, or even remotely close to it I am skipping over all of it, and focus on the story only.

  • Ayrilana.1396Ayrilana.1396 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 4, 2021

    @Tony.8659 said:
    Problem is we really can't attack head on, Ryland keeps throwing stuff all over. Timer is counting down and still waiting to attack how about Anet reduce that.

    It’s really not that bad to deal with. The multiple circle AoE’s can be avoided by walking to the safe spot which is fairly close if you’re in melee range of the boss. The expanding circle attack can be dodged right before it completes. For the cone attack, you can just dodge it.

    You think it's easy to put up LFG snowden all cms and win LMAO . Only have 2/5 done since the update launched. All other DRMs are done 5/5.

    I refuse to try it again with pugs who cannot so a decent amount of DPS and keep failing the mechanics. THAT’S the reason that groups are failing in that CM and others. I had to solo the Fields of Ruin one several times because of how terrible people were.

    To be honest, all of the CMs are likely easier to do solo over grouping with random players.

    If they think this is accessible for everyone that want's the achieve points , they must be on another planet xD.

    It’ll be accessible once they actually fix the breakbar thing so that you can prevent the boss from getting boons. Or groups can just bring boon removal. There are sigils for it so any build can do this.

    I feel bad for newer players that want the achieve points in the story but Anet makes some of the DRMs extremely hard. DRMs are not fun at all, if I didn't need the achieve points (940 left until 30K \o/) all DRMs I wouldn't even bother at all with.

    There are other AP that you can do if it’s too difficult for you.

    Just do the story and next... Been here since April 2012 1st public beta and pretty disappointed in this living story chapter and most likely we get the same come March then I think May again. Grind Wars 2 lol. If any of this content is in the new expansion, or even remotely close to it I am skipping over all of it, and focus on the story only.

    Doing five CMs is hardly a grind.

  • Tony.8659Tony.8659 Member ✭✭✭

    Actually instead of doing all of this, over and over since I have enough gold for about 3 legendaries, I can just put up in a raid LFG and pay them if they will do it :D

  • Ayrilana.1396Ayrilana.1396 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Tony.8659 said:
    Actually instead of doing all of this, over and over since I have enough gold for about 3 legendaries, I can just put up in a raid LFG and pay them if they will do it :D

    Uh huh. Three Legendaries worth probably a total of 6K gold which equates to around 200 hours at a generous g/hr rate. Each CM takes 15 min at most, so with five a piece and seven so far, that’s slightly under 9 hours. It helps to not rely on gross exaggerations to criticize the content.

  • I switched my DPS' build to specifically break Ryland's bar. The good news is that the current patch's
    Fixed a bug that caused the champion boss of the Snowden Drifts Dragon Response Mission to be interrupted but not stunned when its defiance bar was depleted.
    does indeed work, even if EMPing Ryland punishes players by immediately giving Ryland all those boons.

    The bad news is something I observed both when I EMPed Ryland and when I broke his bar without an EMP: he gets Protection.

    • If you EMP him, he gets Protection among all the other boons.
    • If you break his bar without an EMP, he doesn't get that huge slew of boons, but he will give himself Protection a short time later.
    • If you strip Ryland of his boons, he will give himself Protection a short time later, just like above.
      Boon stripping remains vital if you want to succeed, if just to get rid of Ryland's pesky Protection. You can break his bar with or without an EMP, or just let him channel and get his boons- you're going to need to remove that 33% damage reduction regardless.
  • @Ayrilana.1396 said:

    @Tony.8659 said:
    Problem is we really can't attack head on, Ryland keeps throwing stuff all over. Timer is counting down and still waiting to attack how about Anet reduce that.

    It’s really not that bad to deal with. The multiple circle AoE’s can be avoided by walking to the safe spot which is fairly close if you’re in melee range of the boss. The expanding circle attack can be dodged right before it completes. For the cone attack, you can just dodge it.

    That's easier said than done. Even if you know what to look out for, there's so much happening so quickly in this fight. And even if you're supposed to get the fight done quickly anyway- requiring a pure DPS 'Zerker stat-style build- you need to keep up a perfect defense for too long for anyone with pure DPS stats.

    There are other AP that you can do if it’s too difficult for you.

    The thing is that Snowden Drifts DRM makes a huge leap in difficulty compared to all the others that came before it. None of the others' boss fights has you trying to watch out for so many things at the same time. Also, much of Ryland's fight deals a lot of hard-to-avoid damage to squishies, like the KD-followed-by-an-ice-spike. That's telegraphed, but you're also trying to avoid Ryland himself and any other Frost Legion/Icebrood.

    And if (or when) you get downed, the ice attacks being thrown from the center will target you and put your Bandage into cooldown. It's range is pretty wide, so any downed players who aren't helped by their team is going to have to WP and run in...
    ... which is another annoying thing because when you use the WP, you're always spawned facing away from the Owl Lodge! It's disorienting even if you know and expect it, and it slows you down even further.

    And there's also my beef with the Elite Shaman's Ability to send you outside the building. Really, I <3 you ANet and I <3 this game, but that is just kitten poop.

    From what I see, almost no one has any problems with getting Top Dragon Responder done with the DRMS- except for Snowden Drifts'. It's one thing for achievements to require work and skill and be of a certain difficulty, but Snowden Drifts DRM CM goes too far with everything it has.

  • Ayrilana.1396Ayrilana.1396 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Messenger.7450 said:

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:

    @Tony.8659 said:
    Problem is we really can't attack head on, Ryland keeps throwing stuff all over. Timer is counting down and still waiting to attack how about Anet reduce that.

    It’s really not that bad to deal with. The multiple circle AoE’s can be avoided by walking to the safe spot which is fairly close if you’re in melee range of the boss. The expanding circle attack can be dodged right before it completes. For the cone attack, you can just dodge it.

    That's easier said than done. Even if you know what to look out for, there's so much happening so quickly in this fight. And even if you're supposed to get the fight done quickly anyway- requiring a pure DPS 'Zerker stat-style build- you need to keep up a perfect defense for too long for anyone with pure DPS stats.

    You don't really need defense for that fight other than dodging the two attacks and walking around the other. If players are circled around the boss then technically some of them wouldn't need to dodge one of the attacks and even move. There's really not all that much else going on in the fight. Just watch the videos of it. You don't need a pure DPS build but you do need to do reasonable DPS along with everyone else in your group as well. I see people average 6-7K DPS which is essentially me standing on the boss with my number 1 skill pressed down.

    There are other AP that you can do if it’s too difficult for you.

    The thing is that Snowden Drifts DRM makes a huge leap in difficulty compared to all the others that came before it. None of the others' boss fights has you trying to watch out for so many things at the same time. Also, much of Ryland's fight deals a lot of hard-to-avoid damage to squishies, like the KD-followed-by-an-ice-spike. That's telegraphed, but you're also trying to avoid Ryland himself and any other Frost Legion/Icebrood.

    The Gendarran one comes close. The reason the attacks deal so much damage is because he has boons. Assuming the breakbar was fixed, I'm hearing mixed reports, then it's a failure by your group to break it. It's also helpful to have boon removal whether through your class' abilities or with the sigils. There are no adds during the fight, as those occur inbetween the phases, so I don't see where you're getting that.

    And if (or when) you get downed, the ice attacks being thrown from the center will target you and put your Bandage into cooldown. It's range is pretty wide, so any downed players who aren't helped by their team is going to have to WP and run in...

    The WP is fairly close. It takes less than 10 seconds to get back into the fight.

    ... which is another annoying thing because when you use the WP, you're always spawned facing away from the Owl Lodge! It's disorienting even if you know and expect it, and it slows you down even further.

    It's an annoying thing. I also have issues with that when doing adventures as it always faces you away from the direction that you actually need to go.

    And there's also my beef with the Elite Shaman's Ability to send you outside the building. Really, I <3 you ANet and I <3 this game, but that is just kitten poop.

    It's an annoying attack and not one you normally see in the game if ever. I'm not sure if there's a way to avoid it.

    From what I see, almost no one has any problems with getting Top Dragon Responder done with the DRMS- except for Snowden Drifts'. It's one thing for achievements to require work and skill and be of a certain difficulty, but Snowden Drifts DRM CM goes too far with everything it has.

    People have issues with Thunderhead Peak due to poor DPS and not breaking the breakbar. People have issues with Fields of Ruin because of poor DPS. Groups that I were in failed quite regularly which prompted me to just solo the later than take part in the pug roulette.

  • @Ayrilana.1396 said:
    You don't really need defense for that fight other than dodging the two attacks and walking around the other. If players are circled around the boss then technically some of them wouldn't need to dodge one of the attacks and even move. There's really not all that much else going on in the fight. Just watch the videos of it. You don't need a pure DPS build but you do need to do reasonable DPS along with everyone else in your group as well. I see people average 6-7K DPS which is essentially me standing on the boss with my number 1 skill pressed down.

    The "perfect defense" I mentioned IS dodging and moving, as in perfectly dodging and moving throughout the entire fight. The point being that players with more fragile builds will have to do it constantly for the entire duration of Ryland's fight to have a chance at succeeding. At the same time, even toons with high toughness can easily by downed by Ryland's attacks.

    The Gendarran one comes close. The reason the attacks deal so much damage is because he has boons. Assuming the breakbar was fixed, I'm hearing mixed reports, then it's a failure by your group to break it. It's also helpful to have boon removal whether through your class' abilities or with the sigils. There are no adds during the fight, as those occur inbetween the phases, so I don't see where you're getting that.

    The Gendarran boss' attacks have a clear, predictable pattern: he does a charge followed by his four-direction tornadoes which move slow enough to be avoided even by melee fighters, and don't really stop ranged attackers.
    But Ryland's attacks are scattered all over the place.
    Ryland's breakbar was fixed based on my own experiment (see above), but only for non-EMP CC.
    As for adds, the portal phases spawn not just Elites but also Vets. It's quite possible to kill the Elites to start a new Ryland fight phase without killing the Vets. With all challenges turned on, the Vets are at least a pain, at most the killing blow to down you and get you to fail.

    The WP is fairly close. It takes less than 10 seconds to get back into the fight.

    10 seconds is a big DPS loss in a boss fight with a timer.

    It's an annoying attack and not one you normally see in the game if ever. I'm not sure if there's a way to avoid it.

    More to the point: should it even be there? I wonder if it's a bug.
    You don't see that with the Gendarren boss; his tornadoes will toss you into the air for fall damage and take you out of the fight for a few seconds.
    The Elite Shamans send you out of the building long enough to put both you and them out of combat; you can race back in on your mount but he's already reset and gotten back all his health. And sending you outdoors by throwing you up with blizzard-tornado doesn't even make sense.

    People have issues with Thunderhead Peak due to poor DPS and not breaking the breakbar. People have issues with Fields of Ruin because of poor DPS. Groups that I were in failed quite regularly which prompted me to just solo the later than take part in the pug roulette.

    But how many compared to Snowden? Tony above says he has all the Top Dragon Responder except Snowden. Same with me.
    Thunderhead Peaks gives players the right tool to break the CC bar in the instance itself, and it doesn't "prohibit" the use of EMPs.
    Fields of Ruin's boss isn't hard; his case is more about clearing the Destroyers ringing the center of the instance quickly enough so you have time to fight the boss (TIP: skip the Elite mobs; there are enough Vets and ordinary Destroyers to count).
    Snowden Drifts DRM CM is overwhelmingly the most problematic. It's the most different of the DRM boss fights because of so many small highly scattered AOEs and attacks being thrown out. It downs and defeats players too easily compared to the others. Even if you compare how things fail with the other DRMs, they don't fail as bad as how people fail in Snowden.

  • Ayrilana.1396Ayrilana.1396 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 4, 2021

    @Messenger.7450 said:

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:
    You don't really need defense for that fight other than dodging the two attacks and walking around the other. If players are circled around the boss then technically some of them wouldn't need to dodge one of the attacks and even move. There's really not all that much else going on in the fight. Just watch the videos of it. You don't need a pure DPS build but you do need to do reasonable DPS along with everyone else in your group as well. I see people average 6-7K DPS which is essentially me standing on the boss with my number 1 skill pressed down.

    The "perfect defense" I mentioned IS dodging and moving, as in perfectly dodging and moving throughout the entire fight. The point being that players with more fragile builds will have to do it constantly for the entire duration of Ryland's fight to have a chance at succeeding. At the same time, even toons with high toughness can easily by downed by Ryland's attacks.

    You state players with fragile builds will have to do it for the entire fight and then state that those with high toughness will also be easily downed. You appear to imply that there's a difference between the two in the first part but contradict yourself in the second.

    You have three seconds to react to the multiple circle AoE attacks by moving to the save spot next to the boss. If you're standing inside the boss, you can just ignore the circles altogether. You have two seconds to be ready and execute your dodge for the expanding circle attack. The cone attack occurs faster so you have about a second to react but you can simply circle strafe the boss and potentially not even need to dodge in the first place. That attack is only really damaging because the boss has boons.

    The Gendarran one comes close. The reason the attacks deal so much damage is because he has boons. Assuming the breakbar was fixed, I'm hearing mixed reports, then it's a failure by your group to break it. It's also helpful to have boon removal whether through your class' abilities or with the sigils. There are no adds during the fight, as those occur inbetween the phases, so I don't see where you're getting that.

    The Gendarran boss' attacks have a clear, predictable pattern: he does a charge followed by his four-direction tornadoes which move slow enough to be avoided even by melee fighters, and don't really stop ranged attackers.
    But Ryland's attacks are scattered all over the place.
    Ryland's breakbar was fixed based on my own experiment (see above), but only for non-EMP CC.
    As for adds, the portal phases spawn not just Elites but also Vets. It's quite possible to kill the Elites to start a new Ryland fight phase without killing the Vets. With all challenges turned on, the Vets are at least a pain, at most the killing blow to down you and get you to fail.

    Funny enough is that players still constantly get shot up into the air by those tornadoes so I find it surprising that you claim that they move slow enough to avoid and yet you cannot react quickly enough for the Snowden boss attacks.

    The attacks are predictable. You have three rounds of the multiple AoE circle attack followed by an immediate expanding circle attack. This combo occurs every 30 seconds. The expanding circle attack and cone attack have a cool down but I haven't paid enough attention to their timing.

    Make sure the vets are all killed first then as they have lower health. Ignoring them and the continuing on with the boss fight is your group's own fault for choosing to make things more difficult.

    The WP is fairly close. It takes less than 10 seconds to get back into the fight.

    10 seconds is a big DPS loss in a boss fight with a timer.

    Then don't die?

    It's an annoying attack and not one you normally see in the game if ever. I'm not sure if there's a way to avoid it.

    More to the point: should it even be there? I wonder if it's a bug.
    You don't see that with the Gendarren boss; his tornadoes will toss you into the air for fall damage and take you out of the fight for a few seconds.
    The Elite Shamans send you out of the building long enough to put both you and them out of combat; you can race back in on your mount but he's already reset and gotten back all his health. And sending you outdoors by throwing you up with blizzard-tornado doesn't even make sense.

    It could be a bug as people claim it only happens when you get toss to far up into the air. I dunno. As far as I'm aware, that attack is single target but I haven't paid much attention to it to confirm that.

    I never said anything about the tornadoes not tossing players up in the air and taking them out of the fight. I don't see why you chose to include this and assume that I didn't know that attack as well.

    People have issues with Thunderhead Peak due to poor DPS and not breaking the breakbar. People have issues with Fields of Ruin because of poor DPS. Groups that I were in failed quite regularly which prompted me to just solo the later than take part in the pug roulette.

    But how many compared to Snowden? Tony above says he has all the Top Dragon Responder except Snowden. Same with me.
    Thunderhead Peaks gives players the right tool to break the CC bar in the instance itself, and it doesn't "prohibit" the use of EMPs.
    Fields of Ruin's boss isn't hard; his case is more about clearing the Destroyers ringing the center of the instance quickly enough so you have time to fight the boss (TIP: skip the Elite mobs; there are enough Vets and ordinary Destroyers to count).
    Snowden Drifts DRM CM is overwhelmingly the most problematic. It's the most different of the DRM boss fights because of so many small highly scattered AOEs and attacks being thrown out. It downs and defeats players too easily compared to the others. Even if you compare how things fail with the other DRMs, they don't fail as bad as how people fail in Snowden.

    Not as many as Snowden but certainly more than you were letting on in your post.

    Thunderhead Peaks does provide that except a large number of groups don't CC the boss regardless. DPS is also a major issue when clearing the destroyers and on the boss itself.

    Yes, the Field of Ruin boss isn't hard. The issue is that players lack DPS which makes clearing the destroyers and the boss fight itself take too long. You can skip one elite but if there's a second one then you have to kill it. At least this was my experience solo.

    Snowden is a problem because of DPS and players failing the mechanics (as well as the boss having boons). The attacks are not being dished out in the matter that you're claiming. Watch the videos of the attacks or pay attention to them when you're doing the DRM. There is somewhat of a pattern. Snowden is a step up from the others and something players need to learn to adapt to. They should watch videos and see just how spaced out those attacks really are and how much time they have to react. Or they can do that entirely in game by doing the DRM over and over.

  • Tony.8659Tony.8659 Member ✭✭✭

    100 mystic coins per run for any DRM is not so bad. Since I have a few hundred not doing anything it looks like I will be good to go :D

  • @Ayrilana.1396 said:
    You state players with fragile builds will have to do it for the entire fight and then state that those with high toughness will also be easily downed. You appear to imply that there's a difference between the two in the first part but contradict yourself in the second.

    Of course there's a difference, in the same way that there's a difference between a guy who gets one-shot and the guy who goes down in two. The other guy has a bit more margin for error.
    But in the context of Snowden Drifts DRM CM, the practical difference is not much- yet the difference in stats between pure DPS and slightly-less DPS-centric may be great enough to doom a player's or group's attempt at succeeding in the timed challenge.

    You have three seconds to react to the multiple circle AoE attacks by moving to the save spot next to the boss. If you're standing inside the boss, you can just ignore the circles altogether. You have two seconds to be ready and execute your dodge for the expanding circle attack. The cone attack occurs faster so you have about a second to react but you can simply circle strafe the boss and potentially not even need to dodge in the first place. That attack is only really damaging because the boss has boons.
    Funny enough is that players still constantly get shot up into the air by those tornadoes so I find it surprising that you claim that they move slow enough to avoid and yet you cannot react quickly enough for the Snowden boss attacks.
    The attacks are predictable. You have three rounds of the multiple AoE circle attack followed by an immediate expanding circle attack. This combo occurs every 30 seconds. The expanding circle attack and cone attack have a cool down but I haven't paid enough attention to their timing.

    The difference being that that the Destroyer of the Great Bridge's fire tornadoes are still far easier to evade and do far less damage than the damage in Ryland's fight. The question remains of why the others- while challenging enough- can be more readily accomplished, while Snowden's remains frustratingly difficult.

    Then don't die?

    Again, easier said than done.

    It could be a bug as people claim it only happens when you get toss to far up into the air. I dunno. As far as I'm aware, that attack is single target but I haven't paid much attention to it to confirm that.

    Nevertheless, it's an additional highly disruptive mechanic that help push Snowden's difficulty and resulting frustration too far.

    I never said anything about the tornadoes not tossing players up in the air and taking them out of the fight. I don't see why you chose to include this and assume that I didn't know that attack as well.

    This is relevant since we're comparing Snowden Drifts DRM with others, especially where you say Snowden's isn't so bad as to need change by citing how Gendarren's, Fields of Ruin's, and Thunderhead's supposedly are just as bad and frustrating to players.
    If both Gendarren's and Snowden's have this mechanic but the latter throws in this additional effect where it makes the fight more difficult yet doesn't make sense, then all the more need for the Snowden DRM to be reviewed by ANet.

    Not as many as Snowden but certainly more than you were letting on in your post.

    The "Not as many" from you I'll take as additional confirmation of Snowden's being an outlier. The "more than you were letting on" indicates to me that the other DRM CMs remain challenging enough to count as an achievement, and thus be fair.

    Thunderhead Peaks does provide that except a large number of groups don't CC the boss regardless. DPS is also a major issue when clearing the destroyers and on the boss itself.

    And yet not too hard that a PUG can't get it done, and can be done consistently enough to give someone a Top Responder achievement.

    Yes, the Field of Ruin boss isn't hard. The issue is that players lack DPS which makes clearing the destroyers and the boss fight itself take too long. You can skip one elite but if there's a second one then you have to kill it. At least this was my experience solo.

    Two Elite destroyers always spawn in that part of the DRM, but you can skip the both for timer purposes. Clearing all the others will still let you move on to the boss.

    Make sure the vets are all killed first then as they have lower health. Ignoring them and the continuing on with the boss fight is your group's own fault for choosing to make things more difficult.
    Snowden is a problem because of DPS and players failing the mechanics (as well as the boss having boons). The attacks are not being dished out in the matter that you're claiming. Watch the videos of the attacks or pay attention to them when you're doing the DRM. There is somewhat of a pattern. Snowden is a step up from the others and something players need to learn to adapt to. They should watch videos and see just how spaced out those attacks really are and how much time they have to react. Or they can do that entirely in game by doing the DRM over and over.

    This is where we disagree. You blame other people for failed attempts at getting Snowden Drifts CM done. But is it really other people? Or is it that the Snowden Drifts DRM itself with all challenges turned on is too hard?
    We have 6 other DRMs to compare it with. Those others' CMs provide challenges for players to overcome- but they are overcome.
    At the same time, we know there are technical problems with Snowden Drifts. There was the bug that cause Ryland to automatically get all his boons and NOT get stunned when his breakbar is broken. That EMPing him still causes this to happen despite the patch makes raises the question if this was meant to discourage the use of EMP in the DRM, but such is not consistent with other DRMs that don't penalize EMP.
    One of the adds in Ryland's fight can banish players to outside long enough for him to reset and get all his health back, and he's spawned twice during the fight.
    It is more difficult to avoid the scattered high damage attacks in Ryland's fight than with any other DRM's boss, and yet the consequences of failing to do so are worse.
    You yourself said you're waiting another two weeks for a fix.
    Agree to disagree, my position is that the Snowden Drifts DRM needs to be re-examined and tweaked to match the other DRMs. The other DRM CMs provide an adequate enough challenge IMHO to be worth their achievements, but Snowden Drifts DRM goes too far in difficulty.

  • Ayrilana.1396Ayrilana.1396 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Messenger.7450 said:
    Of course there's a difference, in the same way that there's a difference between a guy who gets one-shot and the guy who goes down in two. The other guy has a bit more margin for error.
    But in the context of Snowden Drifts DRM CM, the practical difference is not much- yet the difference in stats between pure DPS and slightly-less DPS-centric may be great enough to doom a player's or group's attempt at succeeding in the timed challenge.

    So someone in full defensive gear has a bit more margin of error. What's your point? At first your seem to downplay the difference and now you're seemingly trying to do the opposite.

    You don't need pure DPS builds to succeed at that CM. They certainly help but they're far from a requirement.

    The difference being that that the Destroyer of the Great Bridge's fire tornadoes are still far easier to evade and do far less damage than the damage in Ryland's fight. The question remains of why the others- while challenging enough- can be more readily accomplished, while Snowden's remains frustratingly difficult.

    Far less damage, yes. Easier to avoid, not really. As I stated before, the attacks are predictable and well telegraphed.

    The issue with Snowden was the boons which made the boss do significantly more damage. Without boons, the boss isn't that bad. I've stated this several times so I suggest that you try it and see what I mean. The CMs have been gradually stepping up in difficulty which is a good thing.

    Nevertheless, it's an additional highly disruptive mechanic that help push Snowden's difficulty and resulting frustration too far.

    A boss getting boons if people don't CC isn't new. It's a penalty for not breaking the breakbar. A boss having a breakbar that really has no meaning is a waste. The breakbar for the Field of Ruin one being a good example as I didn't see any penalty for ignoring it.

    This is relevant since we're comparing Snowden Drifts DRM with others, especially where you say Snowden's isn't so bad as to need change by citing how Gendarren's, Fields of Ruin's, and Thunderhead's supposedly are just as bad and frustrating to players.
    If both Gendarren's and Snowden's have this mechanic but the latter throws in this additional effect where it makes the fight more difficult yet doesn't make sense, then all the more need for the Snowden DRM to be reviewed by ANet.

    Again, the main issue is that the Snowden boss has boons which makes his attacks significantly more damaging. Try the boss fight without it having boons.

    Doing actual DPS and not failing mechanics is important as well.

    The "Not as many" from you I'll take as additional confirmation of Snowden's being an outlier. The "more than you were letting on" indicates to me that the other DRM CMs remain challenging enough to count as an achievement, and thus be fair.

    Let's say you have three fractals with each gradually stepping up in difficulty. The third one, being the more difficult, would not be an outlier. The DRMs have been stepping up in difficulty, and the Snowden one is far from being an outlier when considering the bug with the boons.

    And yet not too hard that a PUG can't get it done, and can be done consistently enough to give someone a Top Responder achievement.

    People have said they've done it in pugs.

    Two Elite destroyers always spawn in that part of the DRM, but you can skip the both for timer purposes. Clearing all the others will still let you move on to the boss.

    Two don't spawn all the time. When I did it solo, I could skip one elite at most. When I tried to skip both, and all other mobs were defeated, I had to go back and kill one of them wasting time.

    This is where we disagree. You blame other people for failed attempts at getting Snowden Drifts CM done. But is it really other people? Or is it that the Snowden Drifts DRM itself with all challenges turned on is too hard?

    It's a combination of the bugged boon thing and the players themselves doing poor DPS and failing the mechanics.

    We have 6 other DRMs to compare it with. Those others' CMs provide challenges for players to overcome- but they are overcome.

    And each of those DRMs have varying degrees of difficulty with Snowden being the more difficult. Snowden has been beaten by solo and grouped players.

    At the same time, we know there are technical problems with Snowden Drifts. There was the bug that cause Ryland to automatically get all his boons and NOT get stunned when his breakbar is broken. That EMPing him still causes this to happen despite the patch makes raises the question if this was meant to discourage the use of EMP in the DRM, but such is not consistent with other DRMs that don't penalize EMP.

    The attempted fix implies this was not intended nor does it make sense for a consumable added in IBS to be discouraged.

    One of the adds in Ryland's fight can banish players to outside long enough for him to reset and get all his health back, and he's spawned twice during the fight.

    "During the fight" meaning inbetween the boss phases with the portals. Adds don't spawn when you're fighting the boss. It's potentially another bug.

    It is more difficult to avoid the scattered high damage attacks in Ryland's fight than with any other DRM's boss, and yet the consequences of failing to do so are worse.

    Not really. There's always a safe spot inside the boss or right next to it.

    You yourself said you're waiting another two weeks for a fix.

    The fix being with the breakbar and not the CM itself.

    Agree to disagree, my position is that the Snowden Drifts DRM needs to be re-examined and tweaked to match the other DRMs. The other DRM CMs provide an adequate enough challenge IMHO to be worth their achievements, but Snowden Drifts DRM goes too far in difficulty.

    It's a gradual step up from the others. It doesn't need to be tweaked simply because it's the more difficult out of all of them. As I said before, try doing the boss without it having boons.

  • Tony.8659Tony.8659 Member ✭✭✭

    Done the snowden DRM with all CMs thanks to a raid group I gladly paid. Terrible content, can't say anymore with many censored words LOL. What I do know is this, I can hardly wait for that Guild Wars 2 Survey in my email, oh man I'm going to have a fun time with that LOL. On a scale of 1 - 10, no every question I answer will be 1 or 0 if I had that choice on my thoughts on this living world update. Then on to explain to them why haha, this will be good.

  • @Tony.8659 said:
    Done the snowden DRM with all CMs thanks to a raid group I gladly paid. Terrible content, can't say anymore with many censored words LOL. What I do know is this, I can hardly wait for that Guild Wars 2 Survey in my email, oh man I'm going to have a fun time with that LOL. On a scale of 1 - 10, no every question I answer will be 1 or 0 if I had that choice on my thoughts on this living world update. Then on to explain to them why haha, this will be good.

    What part of the DRMs and or DRMs Cms you dont like? If ist only the difficult of the Snowden Cm or you generally dislike the difficulty of the Cms? If its the difficulty? You can play the normal DRMs. Maybe you fell forced to do all DRMs CMs for the meta achivement. Thats maybe the main problem i can see. Arenanet should make an extra category for CMs for strike missions, DRMs, story missions, fractals (Right now, in fractals there are hidden, until you unloke them) etc. . The players who dont want to player harder content can ignore this content easier and the rest have there achevements points/goals. If you are an Ap hunter sure there is still a problem, but there are collections way more expensive, than to buy raids, strikes etc. and it would be kind of selfish to say, i dont want difficult content with achivements points, because i cant beat it.

  • Ragi.7291Ragi.7291 Member ✭✭✭
    edited February 8, 2021

    I would like to put a message to those who find CM too hard for them at the moment.
    If you aren't in hurry, you can wait for the rest of mastery you will surely find it easier.
    Because you get more and more power and buff.
    Just do one primordial mission and one jormag mission as normal and then launch the CM you want and you will have more ease via the mastery bonuses and more reward.


    Compared to the other CMs, this is the only one that has a fairly tight timer when you finish it you have between a few seconds and 3 minutes left.
    The other CM's usually you have between 10 and 15 minutes after finishing it , which doesn't make it a challenge.

    1. If the goal of DRMs is to be able to do history missions together and repeatable like a daily newspaper without pressure the Snowden CM is too hard for that goal.
    2. If the goal is to be challenging like the CM fractals, then everything else except Snowden is too simple in CM.

    Personally I find this content much more formative than the strike missions.
    You learn from paterns that are reused in raids and fractals, you can go on your own and train.
    Personally on the timer I would take 5 minutes off all CM DRMs except snowden where I would add 3 minutes.

    • On Snowden DRM
      I would drastically reduce the breakbar of the 3 invoked champions from the snowden portals.
      I will remove the CC on the ice picks that come out of the ground because in the murmur of jormag (strike mission) those who don't CC.
      They have the same visual as long as it does the same thing.
      Also it would avoid being too dependent on the stab and the non-meta groups would be less in control.

    • On the Metrica DRM
      I will remove the loading bar to take a spanner from the box to repair the golem.
      It's very frustrating and time consuming for nothing.

    • On Ebonhawke DRM
      On pre-event : there is a problem with the weapons to take from the blacksmith and then back to the soldier, it takes too much time to go back and forth for just 1.
      It should be that if you rez them it gives you 1 and if you give him a weapon it counts as another.
      And that he has soldiers near the blacksmith too.
      I would drastically reduce the time available for you to hide behind the statue for Boss.

    • On Thunderhead Peaks DRM
      on the pre-event make it possible to challenge the pnj with just a dialog option, or if you challenge the group of pnj all pnj of the group become enemies.
      The loading bars at each pnj are tedious.
      I would reduce the amount of path to clean depending on the number of people doing the DRM.
      If you are 1 or 2 you must clean 1 path, if you are 3 or 4 = 2 paths and if you are 5, 3 paths.
      On boss being able to take dragon blood spears from the start of the fight would be much better.

    • One of the problems with all DRMs with an escort is that the character as soon as he goes into combat and goes to fight a mob.
      When the fight is over he will return to the point where he entered the fight to find his way back instead of cutting as fast as possible to advance to his destination which slows down and makes it stupid for the pnj to go back and forth.

    • (+) the fact that most of the factions that are supposed to be helping us don't wean anything and die for a mosquito fart.

    Sorry, English isn't my native language.

  • Dawdler.8521Dawdler.8521 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 7, 2021

    @Messenger.7450 said:
    Agree to disagree, my position is that the Snowden Drifts DRM needs to be re-examined and tweaked to match the other DRMs. The other DRM CMs provide an adequate enough challenge IMHO to be worth their achievements, but Snowden Drifts DRM goes too far in difficulty.

    I find snowden to be the easiest. The mob groups melt, the halfway "elite" isnt even a threat, ryland is extremely basic (dodge/block the big circle and stand in melee range in front when it rain) and the 3 champions cant even be classed as champions.

    But I suppose CM make it a little harder.

    gaggle - /ˈɡaɡ(ə)l/ - noun
    A disorderly group of Asura.
    "The gaggle of Asura tried to agree on whether a phase-shifted thermonuclear energy matrix was sufficiently powerful for a device capable of heating bread"

  • Tony.8659Tony.8659 Member ✭✭✭

    While I did pay a raid group for the help to pass snowden 2 more times, I didn't just sit there, I was fighting with them as well just as hard and what was funny was I didn't die on the first run second run died only once. This DRM is not even close to the other ones. The other ones I passed 5x each took a few times but it was done. This one belongs somewhere else, not fun to try over and over with pugs, so if this is the case again in March and May then I will pay to pass certain ones and not be bothered with trying with pugs it's a waste of time. I have so many mystic coins and gold not doing anything so it's best to use it for something worthwhile to me :D Oh and I'm still giving all negative feedback on the survery I can't wait.

  • @Ayrilana.1396 said:

    @Messenger.7450 said:
    Of course there's a difference, in the same way that there's a difference between a guy who gets one-shot and the guy who goes down in two. The other guy has a bit more margin for error.
    But in the context of Snowden Drifts DRM CM, the practical difference is not much- yet the difference in stats between pure DPS and slightly-less DPS-centric may be great enough to doom a player's or group's attempt at succeeding in the timed challenge.

    So someone in full defensive gear has a bit more margin of error. What's your point? At first your seem to downplay the difference and now you're seemingly trying to do the opposite.
    You don't need pure DPS builds to succeed at that CM. They certainly help but they're far from a requirement.

    The point is that being in defensive gear will cut down your DPS so you won't make the timed challenge and yet may not be enough to protect you from all the damage in the Ryland fight.
    On the same note, even if your investment in defensive stats is only a little, it may be enough of a DPS downgrade to make you lose the challenge.

    The difference being that that the Destroyer of the Great Bridge's fire tornadoes are still far easier to evade and do far less damage than the damage in Ryland's fight. The question remains of why the others- while challenging enough- can be more readily accomplished, while Snowden's remains frustratingly difficult.

    Far less damage, yes. Easier to avoid, not really. As I stated before, the attacks are predictable and well telegraphed.

    LOL. Agree to disagree, especially where they weren't really a problem in my experience.

    The issue with Snowden was the boons which made the boss do significantly more damage. Without boons, the boss isn't that bad. I've stated this several times so I suggest that you try it and see what I mean. The CMs have been gradually stepping up in difficulty which is a good thing.

    When did I disagree with you on this?
    In fact, I was the one who brought up bringing in Superior Sigil of Absorption and Superior Sigil of Nullification.
    I was also the person who discovered that even if you break Ryland's breakbar without the EMP, he still keeps giving himself Protection, thus I recommend that whether players choose to break his CC bar or skip it, they should better bring boon removal anyway.

    Nevertheless, it's an additional highly disruptive mechanic that help push Snowden's difficulty and resulting frustration too far.

    A boss getting boons if people don't CC isn't new. It's a penalty for not breaking the breakbar. A boss having a breakbar that really has no meaning is a waste. The breakbar for the Field of Ruin one being a good example as I didn't see any penalty for ignoring it.

    I don't know why this is your response to me, especially when the "additional highly disruptive mechanic" I was talking about is the ability of the Elite Shaman to kick you out of the fight, and not Ryland's boons.

    This is relevant since we're comparing Snowden Drifts DRM with others, especially where you say Snowden's isn't so bad as to need change by citing how Gendarren's, Fields of Ruin's, and Thunderhead's supposedly are just as bad and frustrating to players.
    If both Gendarren's and Snowden's have this mechanic but the latter throws in this additional effect where it makes the fight more difficult yet doesn't make sense, then all the more need for the Snowden DRM to be reviewed by ANet.

    Again, the main issue is that the Snowden boss has boons which makes his attacks significantly more damaging. Try the boss fight without it having boons.

    As above, this a nonsensical retort since I never said you could ignore Ryland's boons. In fact, as stated, it's his Protection and his Elite shaman I despise.

    Doing actual DPS and not failing mechanics is important as well.

    Self-evident statement is self-evident.

    The "Not as many" from you I'll take as additional confirmation of Snowden's being an outlier. The "more than you were letting on" indicates to me that the other DRM CMs remain challenging enough to count as an achievement, and thus be fair.

    Let's say you have three fractals with each gradually stepping up in difficulty. The third one, being the more difficult, would not be an outlier. The DRMs have been stepping up in difficulty, and the Snowden one is far from being an outlier when considering the bug with the boons.

    Disagree. There's not much- if any- step up in difficulty between the new and old ones, with the exception of Snowden Drift's.

    And yet not too hard that a PUG can't get it done, and can be done consistently enough to give someone a Top Responder achievement.

    People have said they've done it in pugs.

    Yeah, how many? Compared to the others?

    Two Elite destroyers always spawn in that part of the DRM, but you can skip the both for timer purposes. Clearing all the others will still let you move on to the boss.

    Two don't spawn all the time. When I did it solo, I could skip one elite at most. When I tried to skip both, and all other mobs were defeated, I had to go back and kill one of them wasting time.

    Wrong. They always spawn in CM (also in normal), in the exact same places: one to the east of the Hawke Heart, one to the south.
    And you can skip both. The reason that you were missing one was because one of the Veterans spawns up the stairs in the northwest quadrant of the ring around the Hawk Heart, apart from the rest who usually spawn in the ring itself. He's easy to miss.

    This is where we disagree. You blame other people for failed attempts at getting Snowden Drifts CM done. But is it really other people? Or is it that the Snowden Drifts DRM itself with all challenges turned on is too hard?

    It's a combination of the bugged boon thing and the players themselves doing poor DPS and failing the mechanics.

    You say above that pure DPS builds isn't a requirement for Snowden Drifts, and yet blame people doing poor DPS?
    For that matter, you also kept saying "don't die", which is apparent and a difficult thing to do given all the damage Ryland's fight throws out in so many ways.

    We have 6 other DRMs to compare it with. Those others' CMs provide challenges for players to overcome- but they are overcome.

    And each of those DRMs have varying degrees of difficulty with Snowden being the more difficult. Snowden has been beaten by solo and grouped players.

    Again, by how many? Compared to the others? Is that rate within reasonable bounds given most players of GW2? And whatever design philosophy ANet has for the difficulty of achievements in-game? It has to walk a fine line between "not easy" and "not super hard". Snowden Drifts veers enough into the latter.

    At the same time, we know there are technical problems with Snowden Drifts. There was the bug that cause Ryland to automatically get all his boons and NOT get stunned when his breakbar is broken. That EMPing him still causes this to happen despite the patch makes raises the question if this was meant to discourage the use of EMP in the DRM, but such is not consistent with other DRMs that don't penalize EMP.

    The attempted fix implies this was not intended nor does it make sense for a consumable added in IBS to be discouraged.

    How does it imply it was not intended? I've pointed out that breaking the CC bar without use of the EMP does work as per the recent patch, stopping Ryland from getting that boatload of boons.
    At the same time, using an EMP to do so still gives Ryland all the boons without stunning him.
    If one is fixed but the other isn't, at best we have no indication either way (they missed fixing the other bug), at worst it's working as intended given how they're similar issues.

    One of the adds in Ryland's fight can banish players to outside long enough for him to reset and get all his health back, and he's spawned twice during the fight.

    "During the fight" meaning inbetween the boss phases with the portals. Adds don't spawn when you're fighting the boss. It's potentially another bug.

    It doesn't matter if it's inbetween the Ryland phases. The same challenge timer is still running. Getting kicked out and having to run back in to fight a fully reset Elite takes up more of a player's time, worse if said Shaman does it again.

    It is more difficult to avoid the scattered high damage attacks in Ryland's fight than with any other DRM's boss, and yet the consequences of failing to do so are worse.

    Not really. There's always a safe spot inside the boss or right next to it.

    A very small and precise spot, unlike the safe zones in other fights.

    You yourself said you're waiting another two weeks for a fix.

    The fix being with the breakbar and not the CM itself.

    This isn't just about the breakbar but the entire Ryland fight itself.

    Agree to disagree, my position is that the Snowden Drifts DRM needs to be re-examined and tweaked to match the other DRMs. The other DRM CMs provide an adequate enough challenge IMHO to be worth their achievements, but Snowden Drifts DRM goes too far in difficulty.

    It's a gradual step up from the others. It doesn't need to be tweaked simply because it's the more difficult out of all of them. As I said before, try doing the boss without it having boons.

    I already answered this boon thing above.

  • @Ragi.7291 said:
    Compared to the other CMs, this is the only one that has a fairly tight timer when you finish it you have between a few seconds and 3 minutes left.
    The other CM's usually you have between 10 and 15 minutes after finishing it , which doesn't make it a challenge.

    I think it's less of a timer thing than how the Ryland fight plays out, with its bugs and difficult mechanics.

    1. If the goal of DRMs is to be able to do history missions together and repeatable like a daily newspaper without pressure the Snowden CM is too hard for that goal.
    2. If the goal is to be challenging like the CM fractals, then everything else except Snowden is too simple in CM.

    I figure it's more #1 than #2, since it's Living Story content.

    • On Snowden DRM
      I would drastically reduce the breakbar of the 3 invoked champions from the snowden portals.

    Not all of them have a breakbar. The one who spawns at the entrance to Owl's Lodge (maces, applies several conditions at once) never does.
    The ones I remember who do are the Elite Shaman and the Elite Bladestorm.
    Also, re: the Elite Frost Legion Shaman: I did a run with EMP equipped. I didn't use it on Ryland but I saved the EMPs for the Elite Frost Legion Shaman in hopes of killing him quicker to avoid his send-you-out-of-the-fight attack. IIRC, his CC bar takes more than 1 EMP to break it. It's a tough CC bar, compared to Ryland's.

    I will remove the CC on the ice picks that come out of the ground because in the murmur of jormag (strike mission) those who don't CC.

    YES. THIS. Multiples of them spawn, they're small, scattered, and easy to get caught by, and the damage of those ice picks is HUGE.

  • @Tony.8659 said:
    While I did pay a raid group for the help to pass snowden 2 more times, I didn't just sit there, I was fighting with them as well just as hard and what was funny was I didn't die on the first run second run died only once. This DRM is not even close to the other ones. The other ones I passed 5x each took a few times but it was done. This one belongs somewhere else, not fun to try over and over with pugs, so if this is the case again in March and May then I will pay to pass certain ones and not be bothered with trying with pugs it's a waste of time. I have so many mystic coins and gold not doing anything so it's best to use it for something worthwhile to me :D Oh and I'm still giving all negative feedback on the survery I can't wait.

    Agree with you. The other ones aren't that hard to do, or at least as hard as Snowden Drift's. It's so different, and as LS content it should not require raid level expertise to be done with Challenge Mode on.

  • Ayrilana.1396Ayrilana.1396 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 9, 2021

    @Messenger.7450 said:

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:

    @Messenger.7450 said:
    Of course there's a difference, in the same way that there's a difference between a guy who gets one-shot and the guy who goes down in two. The other guy has a bit more margin for error.
    But in the context of Snowden Drifts DRM CM, the practical difference is not much- yet the difference in stats between pure DPS and slightly-less DPS-centric may be great enough to doom a player's or group's attempt at succeeding in the timed challenge.

    So someone in full defensive gear has a bit more margin of error. What's your point? At first your seem to downplay the difference and now you're seemingly trying to do the opposite.
    You don't need pure DPS builds to succeed at that CM. They certainly help but they're far from a requirement.

    The point is that being in defensive gear will cut down your DPS so you won't make the timed challenge and yet may not be enough to protect you from all the damage in the Ryland fight.
    On the same note, even if your investment in defensive stats is only a little, it may be enough of a DPS downgrade to make you lose the challenge.

    Defensive stats have been marginal at best and especially for encounter where you can avoid most of the damage anyway. You can still do over 10K DPS with defensive stats which is more than sufficient to complete the CM successfully. The issue is where you have players doing as much as a power DH that is just auto-attacking. That is one of the reasons that groups fail the timer because they do poor DPS. The other reason being failing mechanics which also impacts the first reason as well.

    The difference being that that the Destroyer of the Great Bridge's fire tornadoes are still far easier to evade and do far less damage than the damage in Ryland's fight. The question remains of why the others- while challenging enough- can be more readily accomplished, while Snowden's remains frustratingly difficult.

    Far less damage, yes. Easier to avoid, not really. As I stated before, the attacks are predictable and well telegraphed.

    LOL. Agree to disagree, especially where they weren't really a problem in my experience.

    You weren't paying attention to the fight and attacks then. I suggest watching a video. The attacks are predictable and avoidable. The cone attack may cause issues due to the attack pattern and its timer but circling around the boss generally would ensure you're moving outside of the attack before it lands.

    The issue with Snowden was the boons which made the boss do significantly more damage. Without boons, the boss isn't that bad. I've stated this several times so I suggest that you try it and see what I mean. The CMs have been gradually stepping up in difficulty which is a good thing.

    When did I disagree with you on this?
    In fact, I was the one who brought up bringing in Superior Sigil of Absorption and Superior Sigil of Nullification.
    I was also the person who discovered that even if you break Ryland's breakbar without the EMP, he still keeps giving himself Protection, thus I recommend that whether players choose to break his CC bar or skip it, they should better bring boon removal anyway.

    I keep reiterating this throughout my post because the boss isn't that bad when it doesn't have boons. If the boss doesn't have boons then you kill it faster and it does less damage. Every single group that I was in that attempted it did it with the boss having boons almost the entire time. I did see your post with you noticing a difference but the issue is still with your DPS. I gathered from your posts that you were playing a ranged berserker which is a problem.

    Nevertheless, it's an additional highly disruptive mechanic that help push Snowden's difficulty and resulting frustration too far.

    A boss getting boons if people don't CC isn't new. It's a penalty for not breaking the breakbar. A boss having a breakbar that really has no meaning is a waste. The breakbar for the Field of Ruin one being a good example as I didn't see any penalty for ignoring it.

    I don't know why this is your response to me, especially when the "additional highly disruptive mechanic" I was talking about is the ability of the Elite Shaman to kick you out of the fight, and not Ryland's boons.

    The response was incorrect. With these many sub-quotes, I usually break them all out and then start from the top. I may have removed by quotes to save space which caused me to not have the full context.

    This is relevant since we're comparing Snowden Drifts DRM with others, especially where you say Snowden's isn't so bad as to need change by citing how Gendarren's, Fields of Ruin's, and Thunderhead's supposedly are just as bad and frustrating to players.
    If both Gendarren's and Snowden's have this mechanic but the latter throws in this additional effect where it makes the fight more difficult yet doesn't make sense, then all the more need for the Snowden DRM to be reviewed by ANet.

    Again, the main issue is that the Snowden boss has boons which makes his attacks significantly more damaging. Try the boss fight without it having boons.

    As above, this a nonsensical retort since I never said you could ignore Ryland's boons. In fact, as stated, it's his Protection and his Elite shaman I despise.

    This was another part of the post with me reiterating that a lot of the difficulty is due to the boss having boons including protection. This was me telling you to try it without the boss having any boons and nothing about you saying that its boons could be ignored.

    Doing actual DPS and not failing mechanics is important as well.

    Self-evident statement is self-evident.

    It's an obvious statement which had to be made. Players have a tendency to blame everything but themselves for failures.

    EDIT: Here's an example of very low DPS. I did a public instance of Metrica with two other players. During the first phase of the boss I noticed that it was taking forever so I stepped out of phase 2 and watched its HP. It took them over 5 min to complete the 2nd phase; their DPS was that low. There comes a point that if you're going to attempt a CM then you should be able to do decent DPS (over 10K) and capable of doing the mechanics most of the time. CM completion should not be another participation badge like how the first three and Doric are.

    The "Not as many" from you I'll take as additional confirmation of Snowden's being an outlier. The "more than you were letting on" indicates to me that the other DRM CMs remain challenging enough to count as an achievement, and thus be fair.

    Let's say you have three fractals with each gradually stepping up in difficulty. The third one, being the more difficult, would not be an outlier. The DRMs have been stepping up in difficulty, and the Snowden one is far from being an outlier when considering the bug with the boons.

    Disagree. There's not much- if any- step up in difficulty between the new and old ones, with the exception of Snowden Drift's.

    There is as the new ones have attacks which can down players quickly. The Snowden one was a step above the other three as it requires more personal responsibility on the individual player's part.

    And yet not too hard that a PUG can't get it done, and can be done consistently enough to give someone a Top Responder achievement.

    People have said they've done it in pugs.

    Yeah, how many? Compared to the others?

    There's no data on the breakdown on who have done it in pugs. The point of my statement was to dispute you saying that it can't be done in pugs.

    Two Elite destroyers always spawn in that part of the DRM, but you can skip the both for timer purposes. Clearing all the others will still let you move on to the boss.

    Two don't spawn all the time. When I did it solo, I could skip one elite at most. When I tried to skip both, and all other mobs were defeated, I had to go back and kill one of them wasting time.

    Wrong. They always spawn in CM (also in normal), in the exact same places: one to the east of the Hawke Heart, one to the south.
    And you can skip both. The reason that you were missing one was because one of the Veterans spawns up the stairs in the northwest quadrant of the ring around the Hawk Heart, apart from the rest who usually spawn in the ring itself. He's easy to miss.

    Wrong. Two out of the three times that I did it solo there was only ever one elite. The one time that I had two, there were no other mobs. I remember this because I specifically took the time to check and almost failed the timer because of it.

    This is where we disagree. You blame other people for failed attempts at getting Snowden Drifts CM done. But is it really other people? Or is it that the Snowden Drifts DRM itself with all challenges turned on is too hard?

    It's a combination of the bugged boon thing and the players themselves doing poor DPS and failing the mechanics.

    You say above that pure DPS builds isn't a requirement for Snowden Drifts, and yet blame people doing poor DPS?
    For that matter, you also kept saying "don't die", which is apparent and a difficult thing to do given all the damage Ryland's fight throws out in so many ways.

    You're conflating good DPS and pure DPS builds. You can do good DPS (10K+) without a pure DPS build.

    There are several attacks that the boss does and they're all predictable and avoidable. The primary set of attacks that down most players that I was grouped with is entirely predictable and well telegraphed.

    We have 6 other DRMs to compare it with. Those others' CMs provide challenges for players to overcome- but they are overcome.

    And each of those DRMs have varying degrees of difficulty with Snowden being the more difficult. Snowden has been beaten by solo and grouped players.

    Again, by how many? Compared to the others? Is that rate within reasonable bounds given most players of GW2? And whatever design philosophy ANet has for the difficulty of achievements in-game? It has to walk a fine line between "not easy" and "not super hard". Snowden Drifts veers enough into the latter.

    Just like the point above about this that I had addressed, this was about you making it out as if it cannot be done and not about the percentage of players who have and haven't been successful.

    At the same time, we know there are technical problems with Snowden Drifts. There was the bug that cause Ryland to automatically get all his boons and NOT get stunned when his breakbar is broken. That EMPing him still causes this to happen despite the patch makes raises the question if this was meant to discourage the use of EMP in the DRM, but such is not consistent with other DRMs that don't penalize EMP.

    The attempted fix implies this was not intended nor does it make sense for a consumable added in IBS to be discouraged.

    How does it imply it was not intended? I've pointed out that breaking the CC bar without use of the EMP does work as per the recent patch, stopping Ryland from getting that boatload of boons.
    At the same time, using an EMP to do so still gives Ryland all the boons without stunning him.
    If one is fixed but the other isn't, at best we have no indication either way (they missed fixing the other bug), at worst it's working as intended given how they're similar issues.

    The fact that they had attempted to fix it so the boss wouldn't get boons. The fact that they added a consumable during LS5 that provides CC and it'd be difficult to understand why they would intentionally make it so using it would remove the bar and still give the boss boons. Especially since using the consumable has no issues one other breakbars in the games so why would this one be singled out to be different? I thought that was fairly evident in my post.

    One of the adds in Ryland's fight can banish players to outside long enough for him to reset and get all his health back, and he's spawned twice during the fight.

    "During the fight" meaning inbetween the boss phases with the portals. Adds don't spawn when you're fighting the boss. It's potentially another bug.

    It doesn't matter if it's inbetween the Ryland phases. The same challenge timer is still running. Getting kicked out and having to run back in to fight a fully reset Elite takes up more of a player's time, worse if said Shaman does it again.

    I believe I read that as you saying the add teleported you causing Ryland's HP to reset. You can disregard this.

    It is more difficult to avoid the scattered high damage attacks in Ryland's fight than with any other DRM's boss, and yet the consequences of failing to do so are worse.

    Not really. There's always a safe spot inside the boss or right next to it.

    A very small and precise spot, unlike the safe zones in other fights.

    It's not a small and precise spot. Watch a video and take a look. It's the same size that one of the circle AoEs would have taken plus the smaller safe spots between the circles.

    You yourself said you're waiting another two weeks for a fix.

    The fix being with the breakbar and not the CM itself.

    This isn't just about the breakbar but the entire Ryland fight itself.

    The post I responded to was about the breakbar. Actually, it was your post specifically about the EMP. Nowhere in your post was about the rest of the fight. For me, the issue was the break bar. Please don't conflate my issue with yours. An issue that you didn't make until later in the thread.

    Agree to disagree, my position is that the Snowden Drifts DRM needs to be re-examined and tweaked to match the other DRMs. The other DRM CMs provide an adequate enough challenge IMHO to be worth their achievements, but Snowden Drifts DRM goes too far in difficulty.

    It's a gradual step up from the others. It doesn't need to be tweaked simply because it's the more difficult out of all of them. As I said before, try doing the boss without it having boons.

    I already answered this boon thing above.

    And I've responded to both of your responses.

  • @Ayrilana.1396 said:
    Defensive stats have been marginal at best and especially for encounter where you can avoid most of the damage anyway. You can still do over 10K DPS with defensive stats which is more than sufficient to complete the CM successfully. The issue is where you have players doing as much as a power DH that is just auto-attacking. That is one of the reasons that groups fail the timer because they do poor DPS. The other reason being failing mechanics which also impacts the first reason as well.

    I'm taking that "You can still do over 10K DPS with defensive stats" with a big grain of salt. How much defensive stats are we talking about? Whatever sacrifices you make of offensive stats to get defensive stats (and vice-versa) is pretty palpable in-game.
    In a raid comp, sure, you can do that because of all the shared bonuses others give out- but should LS DRM CMs be up to the level of raids? Is that something the game should demand of players?

    You weren't paying attention to the fight and attacks then. I suggest watching a video. The attacks are predictable and avoidable. The cone attack may cause issues due to the attack pattern and its timer but circling around the boss generally would ensure you're moving outside of the attack before it lands.

    I'll keep that in mind as much as I remember the Destroyer of the Great Bridge's charge and tornadoes and your saying they're as bad as a counter-example to Snowden Drifts DRM.

    I keep reiterating this throughout my post because the boss isn't that bad when it doesn't have boons. If the boss doesn't have boons then you kill it faster and it does less damage. Every single group that I was in that attempted it did it with the boss having boons almost the entire time. I did see your post with you noticing a difference but the issue is still with your DPS. I gathered from your posts that you were playing a ranged berserker which is a problem.

    In regard to the boons problem, I return your sentiment in the latter part of your response above: "Please don't conflate my issue with yours.", especially where I looked into boon stripping.
    As for my ranged Berserker, I'll stick to him since the issue I have with the fight are the dangers of fighting up close and the damage Ryland and the rest of the fight puts out- which fighting at range really helps mitigate- and that darned Elite Frost Legion Shaman.

    This was another part of the post with me reiterating that a lot of the difficulty is due to the boss having boons including protection. This was me telling you to try it without the boss having any boons and nothing about you saying that its boons could be ignored.

    Why are you telling me? Look back on the previous parts of this discussion. You insisted on Ryland's 25 stacks of Might as being the trouble; I was the one who saw the Protection as the bigger problem. And I did the testing to find out that you can break his CC bar to avoid the Might, but he'll still give himself Protection anyway and keep it up.

    It's an obvious statement which had to be made. Players have a tendency to blame everything but themselves for failures.

    Doesn't mean that in this case they're wrong. Again, is Snowden Drifts DRM CM failures really the fault of players? Or is it too hard on its own, especially compared to the other DRMs?

    EDIT: Here's an example of very low DPS. I did a public instance of Metrica with two other players. During the first phase of the boss I noticed that it was taking forever so I stepped out of phase 2 and watched its HP. It took them over 5 min to complete the 2nd phase; their DPS was that low. There comes a point that if you're going to attempt a CM then you should be able to do decent DPS (over 10K) and capable of doing the mechanics most of the time. CM completion should not be another participation badge like how the first three and Doric are.

    As if getting any of the CMs done IS a participation badge. Your bad Metric Province DRM experience doesn't make the actual successes there or in any other DRM invalid. If you can tell when people in a CM have too low DPS, then you know the bar has been set high enough to warrant an achievement.
    And as per the reply before the above: if you can make the distinction between a group having enough or too little DPS to deserve succeeding in CM or not, then you should also be able to distinguish when a part of the game demands too much from them.

    There is as the new ones have attacks which can down players quickly. The Snowden one was a step above the other three as it requires more personal responsibility on the individual player's part.

    It's not merely "a step above" so that it should be easily excused. Snowden Drift's fight is far more unforgiving. You can be downed in the other DRMs but it's not automatically a defeat. But Ryland's fight has Ryland, other hostiles, hostile damaging environmental effects all going around. There's that darned portal above the center throwing snowballs interrupting downed players trying to bandage themselves.
    And there's definitely no personal responsibility for a frequently occurring attack, fast and hard to dodge enemy ability that damns your CM attempt by sending you outside.

    There's no data on the breakdown on who have done it in pugs. The point of my statement was to dispute you saying that it can't be done in pugs.

    Yeah, it has to be done by hiring a raid group to carry you. That's SOOO great.

    Wrong. Two out of the three times that I did it solo there was only ever one elite. The one time that I had two, there were no other mobs. I remember this because I specifically took the time to check and almost failed the timer because of it.

    I've got my Top Responder for Fields of Ruin achieve, plus the experience from doing them for story on my other toons, plus the failed CM attempts. Never did I see two Elites fail to spawn, and it even became an emphasized point in my runs to skip them. And always did I find a Vet Destroyer who always likes to hide in those alley stairs.

    You're conflating good DPS and pure DPS builds. You can do good DPS (10K+) without a pure DPS build.

    With a raid group? With specific comps?

    There are several attacks that the boss does and they're all predictable and avoidable. The primary set of attacks that down most players that I was grouped with is entirely predictable and well telegraphed.

    As if that's the only thing happening in the fight...

    Just like the point above about this that I had addressed, this was about you making it out as if it cannot be done and not about the percentage of players who have and haven't been successful.

    Said by someone who also said "There's no data on the breakdown on who have done it in pugs."

    The fact that they had attempted to fix it so the boss wouldn't get boons. The fact that they added a consumable during LS5 that provides CC and it'd be difficult to understand why they would intentionally make it so using it would remove the bar and still give the boss boons. Especially since using the consumable has no issues one other breakbars in the games so why would this one be singled out to be different? I thought that was fairly evident in my post.

    How is your point "evident" when they haven't fixed it so the consumable you mentioned doesn't suffer from the exact same glitch?
    Why wasn't EMP vs Ryland's breakbar fixed at the same time as breaking Ryland's breakbar without it?
    And it doesn't matter that for you (or for me, or for anyone else, or for all of us) that EMP should work. What matters is that in practice- in actually playing the game NOW- it doesn't.

    The post I responded to was about the breakbar. Actually, it was your post specifically about the EMP. Nowhere in your post was about the rest of the fight. For me, the issue was the break bar. Please don't conflate my issue with yours. An issue that you didn't make until later in the thread.

    The EMP bug (along with the original non-EMP breakbar bug) is just one of several problems with the Snowden Drifts DRM CM fight. All of them together indicate that this DRM is a bit half-baked and needs fixing.

    And I've responded to both of your responses.

    Yeah, you keep insisting on a point that doesn't need to be made to me.

  • SexyMofo.8923SexyMofo.8923 Member ✭✭✭

    Just finished this CM. It was easy. Didn’t die once.

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Messenger.7450 said:

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:
    Defensive stats have been marginal at best and especially for encounter where you can avoid most of the damage anyway. You can still do over 10K DPS with defensive stats which is more than sufficient to complete the CM successfully. The issue is where you have players doing as much as a power DH that is just auto-attacking. That is one of the reasons that groups fail the timer because they do poor DPS. The other reason being failing mechanics which also impacts the first reason as well.

    I'm taking that "You can still do over 10K DPS with defensive stats" with a big grain of salt. How much defensive stats are we talking about? Whatever sacrifices you make of offensive stats to get defensive stats (and vice-versa) is pretty palpable in-game.
    In a raid comp, sure, you can do that because of all the shared bonuses others give out- but should LS DRM CMs be up to the level of raids? Is that something the game should demand of players?

    There are condi builds in full trailblazer doing over 25-30k dps without issues. I'd say having 2k toughness and vitality qualifies as quite a bit of defensive stats.

    There are power builds which splice in some toughness or at the very least marauder gear and still reach 30k dps. Full Marauder gear is approximately a 10-12% dps loss versus full berserker, so that additional vitality too would qualify as a lot of defensive stats.

    @Messenger.7450 said:

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:
    I keep reiterating this throughout my post because the boss isn't that bad when it doesn't have boons. If the boss doesn't have boons then you kill it faster and it does less damage. Every single group that I was in that attempted it did it with the boss having boons almost the entire time. I did see your post with you noticing a difference but the issue is still with your DPS. I gathered from your posts that you were playing a ranged berserker which is a problem.

    In regard to the boons problem, I return your sentiment in the latter part of your response above: "Please don't conflate my issue with yours.", especially where I looked into boon stripping.
    As for my ranged Berserker, I'll stick to him since the issue I have with the fight are the dangers of fighting up close and the damage Ryland and the rest of the fight puts out- which fighting at range really helps mitigate- and that darned Elite Frost Legion Shaman.

    The issues you are facing on ranged berserker are:

    • ranged combat will in general lead to less boon uptime unless the entire group goes ranged and even then would require some of those classes run sub-optimal builds
    • rifle on warrior is a pretty bad weapon for damage to begin with

    @Messenger.7450 said:

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:
    It's an obvious statement which had to be made. Players have a tendency to blame everything but themselves for failures.

    Doesn't mean that in this case they're wrong. Again, is Snowden Drifts DRM CM failures really the fault of players? Or is it too hard on its own, especially compared to the other DRMs?

    If it is to hard or not depends on what the developer were going for difficulty wise. Strike missions, raids, fractals, etc. all have varying degrees of difficulty. The fact that Snowden Drifts CM might see less completion could simply be working as intended.

    That does not invalidate the statement that a lot of players attribute failure to other factors than themselves.

    @Messenger.7450 said:

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:
    You're conflating good DPS and pure DPS builds. You can do good DPS (10K+) without a pure DPS build.

    With a raid group? With specific comps?

    You need to stop assuming that any type of decent performing build in this game is automatically a raid build. The benchmarks for raid builds are out there and they are 3-4 times higher than 10k dps. Even without offensive boons, which contribute around 30-40% of the performance, builds can easily hit 20k without any boons.

    Now does this mean that any hotchpotch thrown together nonsensical build will do that too? Probably not.

    @Messenger.7450 said:

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:
    There are several attacks that the boss does and they're all predictable and avoidable. The primary set of attacks that down most players that I was grouped with is entirely predictable and well telegraphed.

    As if that's the only thing happening in the fight...

    Ryland has literally 3 attacks which he loops:

    • 3 melee swings with a frontal cone cleave with some sporadic icicles falling (easy side stepped or walk through him)
    • a circle aoe around him (should be dodged but can be walked out of if low on dodges)
    • he channels multiple icicles to fall *safe spot right in front of him)

    That's literally all that is happening in this fight, if we exclude the small breaks to kill portals and adds during which Ryland is not engaged.

    @Messenger.7450 said:

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:
    Just like the point above about this that I had addressed, this was about you making it out as if it cannot be done and not about the percentage of players who have and haven't been successful.

    Said by someone who also said "There's no data on the breakdown on who have done it in pugs."

    The fact that they had attempted to fix it so the boss wouldn't get boons. The fact that they added a consumable during LS5 that provides CC and it'd be difficult to understand why they would intentionally make it so using it would remove the bar and still give the boss boons. Especially since using the consumable has no issues one other breakbars in the games so why would this one be singled out to be different? I thought that was fairly evident in my post.

    How is your point "evident" when they haven't fixed it so the consumable you mentioned doesn't suffer from the exact same glitch?
    Why wasn't EMP vs Ryland's breakbar fixed at the same time as breaking Ryland's breakbar without it?
    And it doesn't matter that for you (or for me, or for anyone else, or for all of us) that EMP should work. What matters is that in practice- in actually playing the game NOW- it doesn't.

    Or this is working as intended. As in: intended behavior to surprise players and make then react to NOT using the EMP. CCing him without EMP works just fine.

  • Ayrilana.1396Ayrilana.1396 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 10, 2021

    @Messenger.7450 said:

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:
    Defensive stats have been marginal at best and especially for encounter where you can avoid most of the damage anyway. You can still do over 10K DPS with defensive stats which is more than sufficient to complete the CM successfully. The issue is where you have players doing as much as a power DH that is just auto-attacking. That is one of the reasons that groups fail the timer because they do poor DPS. The other reason being failing mechanics which also impacts the first reason as well.

    I'm taking that "You can still do over 10K DPS with defensive stats" with a big grain of salt. How much defensive stats are we talking about? Whatever sacrifices you make of offensive stats to get defensive stats (and vice-versa) is pretty palpable in-game.
    In a raid comp, sure, you can do that because of all the shared bonuses others give out- but should LS DRM CMs be up to the level of raids? Is that something the game should demand of players?

    Since you don't believe that then I'm assuming you don't use ArcDPS and are unaware of what DPS you're doing as well as others. Hitting 10K DPS is very easy and especially with the DRM morale buffs. Doing over 10K DPS is not raid level. Just an FYI, raid players, in a raid comp, will do over 20K and perhaps over 30K with some builds.

    You weren't paying attention to the fight and attacks then. I suggest watching a video. The attacks are predictable and avoidable. The cone attack may cause issues due to the attack pattern and its timer but circling around the boss generally would ensure you're moving outside of the attack before it lands.

    I'll keep that in mind as much as I remember the Destroyer of the Great Bridge's charge and tornadoes and your saying they're as bad as a counter-example to Snowden Drifts DRM.

    I'm saying they're bad as a counter example as they are more or less the same. The amount of time a player has to react to the fire tornadoes is roughly the same amount of time players have to react to the Snowden boss' attacks except for the cone one which can be avoided by circle strafing the boss if you don't want to dodge the attack.

    I keep reiterating this throughout my post because the boss isn't that bad when it doesn't have boons. If the boss doesn't have boons then you kill it faster and it does less damage. Every single group that I was in that attempted it did it with the boss having boons almost the entire time. I did see your post with you noticing a difference but the issue is still with your DPS. I gathered from your posts that you were playing a ranged berserker which is a problem.

    In regard to the boons problem, I return your sentiment in the latter part of your response above: "Please don't conflate my issue with yours.", especially where I looked into boon stripping.
    As for my ranged Berserker, I'll stick to him since the issue I have with the fight are the dangers of fighting up close and the damage Ryland and the rest of the fight puts out- which fighting at range really helps mitigate- and that darned Elite Frost Legion Shaman.

    A lot of the issue with the boss' damage comes from the boons that it has and it having protection greatly impacts how much damage the players can deal to it. This is a very real issue and you yourself stated that you noticed a difference when the boss didn't have boons.

    You're trading off DPS for safety. Ranged damage is inferior to melee damage most of the time but most definitely for your build. Especially with a build that can't break 6K on golem nor break 10K on a golem with all boons. Those DPS numbers are based on what you provided in another thread.

    This was another part of the post with me reiterating that a lot of the difficulty is due to the boss having boons including protection. This was me telling you to try it without the boss having any boons and nothing about you saying that its boons could be ignored.

    Why are you telling me? Look back on the previous parts of this discussion. You insisted on Ryland's 25 stacks of Might as being the trouble; I was the one who saw the Protection as the bigger problem. And I did the testing to find out that you can break his CC bar to avoid the Might, but he'll still give himself Protection anyway and keep it up.

    I'm saying that all of the boons are an issue. The reason that the cone attack instant downs players is because the boss has boons. His auto attacks do a lot of damage because the boss has boons. The boss having protection is also an issue but that doesn't mean the other boons are not.

    It's an obvious statement which had to be made. Players have a tendency to blame everything but themselves for failures.

    Doesn't mean that in this case they're wrong. Again, is Snowden Drifts DRM CM failures really the fault of players? Or is it too hard on its own, especially compared to the other DRMs?

    Yes, the failures are the fault of players. The DRM is not that much more difficult as the majority of attacks can easily be avoided as players are given plenty of time to react.

    EDIT: Here's an example of very low DPS. I did a public instance of Metrica with two other players. During the first phase of the boss I noticed that it was taking forever so I stepped out of phase 2 and watched its HP. It took them over 5 min to complete the 2nd phase; their DPS was that low. There comes a point that if you're going to attempt a CM then you should be able to do decent DPS (over 10K) and capable of doing the mechanics most of the time. CM completion should not be another participation badge like how the first three and Doric are.

    As if getting any of the CMs done IS a participation badge. Your bad Metric Province DRM experience doesn't make the actual successes there or in any other DRM invalid. If you can tell when people in a CM have too low DPS, then you know the bar has been set high enough to warrant an achievement.
    And as per the reply before the above: if you can make the distinction between a group having enough or too little DPS to deserve succeeding in CM or not, then you should also be able to distinguish when a part of the game demands too much from them.

    My example was me highlighting the type of damage that I have seen many players do. It's that same type of damage that I have seen people also do in CMs. Getting CMs done for the first three DRMs, as well as Doric, is a participation badge as the timers are way to generous. It's very difficult to fail those.

    There is as the new ones have attacks which can down players quickly. The Snowden one was a step above the other three as it requires more personal responsibility on the individual player's part.

    It's not merely "a step above" so that it should be easily excused. Snowden Drift's fight is far more unforgiving. You can be downed in the other DRMs but it's not automatically a defeat. But Ryland's fight has Ryland, other hostiles, hostile damaging environmental effects all going around. There's that darned portal above the center throwing snowballs interrupting downed players trying to bandage themselves.
    And there's definitely no personal responsibility for a frequently occurring attack, fast and hard to dodge enemy ability that damns your CM attempt by sending you outside.

    It is a step above. The attacks are not frequently orccuring. The circle AoEs one followed by the expanding circle occurs every 30 seconds. You coming off as if the boss is spamming these attacks is why I kept referring you to watch a video and time the interval between them.

    There's no data on the breakdown on who have done it in pugs. The point of my statement was to dispute you saying that it can't be done in pugs.

    Yeah, it has to be done by hiring a raid group to carry you. That's SOOO great.

    No it doesn't. It can and has been done in pugs. A raid group is not necessary.

    Wrong. Two out of the three times that I did it solo there was only ever one elite. The one time that I had two, there were no other mobs. I remember this because I specifically took the time to check and almost failed the timer because of it.

    I've got my Top Responder for Fields of Ruin achieve, plus the experience from doing them for story on my other toons, plus the failed CM attempts. Never did I see two Elites fail to spawn, and it even became an emphasized point in my runs to skip them. And always did I find a Vet Destroyer who always likes to hide in those alley stairs.

    Then perhaps its RNG or the second elite wandered off somewhere. All I know is that for two of three runs, there was only one elite in the main corridor that you clear the mobs and it wasn't in that ally to the NW.

    You're conflating good DPS and pure DPS builds. You can do good DPS (10K+) without a pure DPS build.

    With a raid group? With specific comps?

    I mentioned this above but you should check out ArcDPS and track your DPS and others. You should also take a look at the DPS that raid builds are able to do. There is a very large difference between the DPS that raid builds do and 10K DPS.

    There are several attacks that the boss does and they're all predictable and avoidable. The primary set of attacks that down most players that I was grouped with is entirely predictable and well telegraphed.

    As if that's the only thing happening in the fight...

    What else is there? You have the attack combo of three sets of the circle AoE's followed by an immediate expanding circle attack this occurs every 30 seconds. You have a standalone expanding circle attack and the cone attack. You then have the auto attacks. That's pretty much the majority of the damage that comes from the boss.

    Just like the point above about this that I had addressed, this was about you making it out as if it cannot be done and not about the percentage of players who have and haven't been successful.

    Said by someone who also said "There's no data on the breakdown on who have done it in pugs."

    People have stated they have completed it in pugs. If someone completed it pugs then that automatically makes your statement that it cannot be done invalid.

    The fact that they had attempted to fix it so the boss wouldn't get boons. The fact that they added a consumable during LS5 that provides CC and it'd be difficult to understand why they would intentionally make it so using it would remove the bar and still give the boss boons. Especially since using the consumable has no issues one other breakbars in the games so why would this one be singled out to be different? I thought that was fairly evident in my post.

    How is your point "evident" when they haven't fixed it so the consumable you mentioned doesn't suffer from the exact same glitch?
    Why wasn't EMP vs Ryland's breakbar fixed at the same time as breaking Ryland's breakbar without it?
    And it doesn't matter that for you (or for me, or for anyone else, or for all of us) that EMP should work. What matters is that in practice- in actually playing the game NOW- it doesn't.

    I believe this will be the third time I have stated this. The EMP works on every other breakbar in the game without issue. It breaks the bar and the impact on the boss is as if you had broken it by any other means. Anet was aware of the boss still getting boons when its breakbar is broken and their fix only impacted breaking it without using EMP. Anet has given no indication that EMP, a consumable from the same season as the DRM, is not intended to be used on the boss.

    If you feel that Anet singled out this single boss to not be effected by the EMP, to have it break the bar but still give the boss boons, then by all means back up your case.

    The post I responded to was about the breakbar. Actually, it was your post specifically about the EMP. Nowhere in your post was about the rest of the fight. For me, the issue was the break bar. Please don't conflate my issue with yours. An issue that you didn't make until later in the thread.

    The EMP bug (along with the original non-EMP breakbar bug) is just one of several problems with the Snowden Drifts DRM CM fight. All of them together indicate that this DRM is a bit half-baked and needs fixing.

    Oh so now you're considering the EMP still giving the boss boons a bug when in the previous point you were insisting that it wasn't? Really?

    Other than perhaps the one elite porting players, there isn't any other issue with the CM/DRM.

    And I've responded to both of your responses.

    Yeah, you keep insisting on a point that doesn't need to be made to me.

    Based on what I have been responding to, the point had needed to be made.

  • Breaking his bar is counter productive anyway because that's the easy damage phase, he doesn't move and easy to avoid damage, breaking his bar will only get him chasing you again with bigger damage faster.
    This drm/boss CM is just annoying. The projectiles that freeze you during the elite boss are just lame, and the elite damage is to much imo, they deal more damag than the actual boss ...

    And seems like i'm getting alot of laggspikes when i'm at this boss, even more then average, kills me more than anything.

  • Katary.7096Katary.7096 Member ✭✭✭

    @Messenger.7450 said:
    Agree with you. The other ones aren't that hard to do, or at least as hard as Snowden Drift's. It's so different, and as LS content it should not require raid level expertise to be done with Challenge Mode on.

    And what is the correct level of challenge for LS content with CM activated?

  • TheQuickFox.3826TheQuickFox.3826 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Katary.7096 said:

    @Messenger.7450 said:
    Agree with you. The other ones aren't that hard to do, or at least as hard as Snowden Drift's. It's so different, and as LS content it should not require raid level expertise to be done with Challenge Mode on.

    And what is the correct level of challenge for LS content with CM activated?

    Similar to the strike missions and the earlier dragon response missions.

    Ascalon Will Prevail!

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  • Will.9785Will.9785 Member ✭✭✭

    I agree that the CM for this is too difficult. The timer is too short. It takes forever just to get the kodan to the shrine. God help you if he gets chilled.

  • Ashantara.8731Ashantara.8731 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Will.9785 said:
    I agree that the CM for this is too difficult. The timer is too short.

    Get good teammates and it's easily done. Just focus, don't stand in the various AoE (there are safe spots) and dodge the growing circle on time.

  • Will.9785Will.9785 Member ✭✭✭

    @Ashantara.8731 said:

    @Will.9785 said:
    I agree that the CM for this is too difficult. The timer is too short.

    Get good teammates and it's easily done. Just focus, don't stand in the various AoE (there are safe spots) and dodge the growing circle on time.

    I've had better luck soloing the CMs to be honest. LFG is been very hit or miss (mostly miss) for me. I've got the mechanics down, I just think the scaling is a bit too high for solo play given all of the things you have to deal with.