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About a character - heavy spoilers - don't open if you didn't complete all the stories!

Veprovina.4876Veprovina.4876 Member ✭✭✭✭

It's about Blish. Is he in "hell"? Cause i don't think he "died"....

Did he really need to have such an agonizing end? Couldn't you have just blown him up or something? It wold have been kinder... Let me explain.

At the docks we see him deactivated, and when you activate him, he's in trauma of being conscious in an inert state, no senses, no mobility, nothing except his mind.

When he sacrifices himself for the Kralkatorrik tracker, he says he'll use his core to power the tracker, but he has to disable his higher functions or something. But i don't think that means he killed himself in the process because the Commander remarks "but at the docks..." implying that he will be conscious but unable to do anything about it. Why i think that? Well, the core still works, but to power the tracker, he can't waste energy on "living"... He didn't damage anything on him, so his mind is still intact, it's just that he's stuck in a limbo, fully conscious and basically in a living hell... :astonished:

Please tell me that i missed something and that he's "just dead". I like the character, but this is kinda too dark for GW2's light-ish tone no? I mean, i like messed up stuff like that, it just caught me off guard here, it's not fitting for the tone i think... I mean, i know the stakes needed to be raised but Jesus...

I suppose though, that once Kralk is actually dead (he will be i assume, i'm at Chapter 5, LS4), then Blish will be destroyed fully and can have peace.

Other than that, LS4 is my favorite so far, nice humor, nice stakes raised, a bit too dark with Blish, and i love all the little details. Like when you go to Sunspear thing and Eir comes out with Snaff out of the Mists. The boss you fight has the Fractals music playing on it and it's sooo good, works great! Also, when you escape from the Mists after Blish stays behind, there's just an atmospheric emotional theme, not some big chase music, i thought that was a nice touch as well.

Comments

  • Randulf.7614Randulf.7614 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 5, 2021

    Higher functions would include consciousness, so I'm not expecting he suffered in the sense you are thinking. From that point, he is effectively dead. He is more akin to a pre-programmed machine with no AI, awareness or such

    Next episode from a story point of view I think you will enjoy. I wont spoil it as it was at the time quite significant and the work they put into the final story instance is quite admirable for an LS episode, even if the map is somewhat vacant.

    I despise the final episode (except the map) with a passion. Your thoughts will be interesting on that one

    What sleep is here? What dreams there are in the unctuous coiling of the snakes mortal shuffling. weapon in my hand. My hand the arcing deathblow at the end of all things. The horror. The horror. I embrace it. . .

  • So the way characters treat it is that Blish is dead, full on dead, because his power source went bye-bye.

    The thing is, Episode 3 established that "disabling higher functions" isn't killing him, just depriving him of senses. In effect, Blish put himself into the same position he was in at the beginning of S4E3 - turned off, so to speak. His soul still inhabiting the body, but no sense of sight, hearing, touch, etc. so he was in an conscious effective void, and couldn't escape that scenario himself. Not really in hell, because "being in hell" implies suffering and pain, and being deprived of touch means no pain reception either. Imagine your entire body being numb, with your eyes closed, not hearing anything, and not smelling anything. That's kinda sorta close to the situation Blish should be in... if characters didn't just believe him to be straight up dead.

    Of course, characters think he's dead because the Commander wasn't clear about what Blish did, so it's the Commander's fault, Blish will be in a state of conscious nothingness until the golem's battery dies. (After that, it's unclear how it'd be, because how is the soul tied to the golem? Unanswered. If soul moves on as golem power fails, then he'd end up in the afterlife).

    So it would have been perfectly setup to recover him at the end of the season... never happened though.

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  • Fueki.4753Fueki.4753 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I consider the way he ended up to be the opposite of the docks.
    At the docks, he was just powered down, with all the functions, including consciousness. still intact.

    At the end however, all the higher functions, including conscious, seized to function, while his power source was still running.
    Where his unconscious soul is trapped in the Golem is an unsolved mystery.

    But, we don't even know how got in the Golem.
    Maybe it was just the data in his brain that was copied into the Golem and his soul entered the Mists when his body perished.

  • Ashantara.8731Ashantara.8731 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 5, 2021

    He actually explained he was fully aware when he had been deactivated. Unless the whole machine body broke when cosumed by Kralkatorrik, he might be trapped in that agonizing state forever (unless the writers bring him back somehow, which I would welcome <3 ).

    I'm still waiting for my Blish mini! :angry:

  • Veprovina.4876Veprovina.4876 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 6, 2021

    @Randulf.7614 said:
    Higher functions would include consciousness, so I'm not expecting he suffered in the sense you are thinking. From that point, he is effectively dead. He is more akin to a pre-programmed machine with no AI, awareness or such

    Next episode from a story point of view I think you will enjoy. I wont spoil it as it was at the time quite significant and the work they put into the final story instance is quite admirable for an LS episode, even if the map is somewhat vacant.

    I despise the final episode (except the map) with a passion. Your thoughts will be interesting on that one

    Does it though? Cause when he was deactivated (just his power core operational), he was still conscious... He could still think.
    And why else would they include that docks section and him being trapped in a golem body saying "i don't want to experience that again", if they weren't going to make it his fate in the end. From a storytelling perspective, it doesn't make sense to set something up that goes nowhere, so there's that too. And this way it even makes him a greater hero and his sacrifice way grander because he knew what he would be experiencing, being trapped in nothing. And he chose to do it anyway.

    He's a hero!

    And can't wait for the story next! :smile:

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    So the way characters treat it is that Blish is dead, full on dead, because his power source went bye-bye.

    The thing is, Episode 3 established that "disabling higher functions" isn't killing him, just depriving him of senses. In effect, Blish put himself into the same position he was in at the beginning of S4E3 - turned off, so to speak. His soul still inhabiting the body, but no sense of sight, hearing, touch, etc. so he was in an conscious effective void, and couldn't escape that scenario himself. Not really in hell, because "being in hell" implies suffering and pain, and being deprived of touch means no pain reception either. Imagine your entire body being numb, with your eyes closed, not hearing anything, and not smelling anything. That's kinda sorta close to the situation Blish should be in... if characters didn't just believe him to be straight up dead.

    Of course, characters think he's dead because the Commander wasn't clear about what Blish did, so it's the Commander's fault, Blish will be in a state of conscious nothingness until the golem's battery dies. (After that, it's unclear how it'd be, because how is the soul tied to the golem? Unanswered. If soul moves on as golem power fails, then he'd end up in the afterlife).

    So it would have been perfectly setup to recover him at the end of the season... never happened though.

    I know the characters think that. Telling them the truth would probably be horrifying to them. So the commander just basically said "i'm sorry" with no explanation except that Blish didn't return so the implication was that he's dead....

    But he isn't right? He's just in a personal hell. The bolded part you wrote sound quite like hell to me. Or at least the worst psychological torture. Hell doesn't just have to be "pain", and you can suffer in all kinds of ways. And i think he is suffering, if the docks are anything to go by. :cry: That last sunspear lady on the griffon quest as well, but at least Kormir gave her telephaty (or whoever), so she can at least talk to people and not go insane as much. Blish can't even do that.

    It's the equivalent of being completely paralyzed, blind, deaf and mute with no sense of taste or smell. It's just existing with no sensory input, it's horrifying!
    And yes, there's still unanswered questions on how exactly he works but from what info we have, it's kind of really sad and horrible what happened to him.

    @Fueki.4753 said:
    I consider the way he ended up to be the opposite of the docks.
    At the docks, he was just powered down, with all the functions, including consciousness. still intact.

    At the end however, all the higher functions, including conscious, seized to function, while his power source was still running.
    Where his unconscious soul is trapped in the Golem is an unsolved mystery.

    But, we don't even know how got in the Golem.
    Maybe it was just the data in his brain that was copied into the Golem and his soul entered the Mists when his body perished.

    Maybe.... But why would they then set up the docks storyline and explain what happened if that particular sotry thread wen't nowhere. Usually when you set up something, it goes somewhere. It could have been some funny stuff like him periodically disabled in a fight getting angirer and angrier as he regains his abilities, but i think they chose it as the ultimate sacrifice buildup. Because he chose to exist this way, completely trapped. Not just die, that's "easy", he chose conscious nothingness. :astonished: I think they wanted to show how brave he was to chose such a fate.

    @Ashantara.8731 said:
    He actually explained he was fully aware when he had been deactivated. Unless the whole machine body broke when cosumed by Kralkatorrik, he might be trapped in that agonizing state forever (unless the writers bring him back somehow, which I would welcome <3 ).

    I'm still waiting for my Blish mini! :angry:

    I suppose Anet could be saving him for another story if his body somehow survived Kralkatorrik. They could then make a story about how he's reactivated and maybe a whole subplot of dealing with his psychological issues that would inevitabely arise from such an experience. Would be interesting if done right. And maybe he went a little crazy, makes bad choices, is a minor villain until you reason with him or whatever... Much possibilities.

    But we need closure on what happened to him. Or maybe just me, that story thread weirded me out way more than it should... It's not SOMA level of existential dread but it's up there for me...

    Also yes to Blish mini!

  • ugrakarma.9416ugrakarma.9416 Member ✭✭✭✭

    relax man
    consciousness requires energy to be maintained. so if he "power down" his consciousness went down to, so hes in some sleeping mode, nothing different of your sleep.

    main pvp: Khel the Undead(power reaper).

  • Ashantara.8731Ashantara.8731 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Veprovina.4876 said:
    But we need closure on what happened to him. Or maybe just me, that story thread weirded me out way more than it should... It's not SOMA level of existential dread but it's up there for me...

    Me, too. The thought of him spending internity in darkness with no reality, no sign of life around. Just nothingness... horrible.

    Also yes to Blish mini!

    =):+1:

  • Veprovina.4876Veprovina.4876 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @ugrakarma.9416 said:
    relax man
    consciousness requires energy to be maintained. so if he "power down" his consciousness went down to, so hes in some sleeping mode, nothing different of your sleep.

    But he didn't power down, that's the problem. The core still has power but it's used to power the Kralk tracker instead of his senses... :scream:
    If he's just sleeping then cool, but idk, i don't think that's it...

    @Ashantara.8731 said:

    @Veprovina.4876 said:
    But we need closure on what happened to him. Or maybe just me, that story thread weirded me out way more than it should... It's not SOMA level of existential dread but it's up there for me...

    Me, too. The thought of him spending internity in darkness with no reality, no sign of life around. Just nothingness... horrible.

    Also yes to Blish mini!

    =):+1:

    I know right? Did you play SOMA? If you think the Blish thing is horrible and weird, SOMA will be hardcore. :smile: And i'm not talking about the monsters, those are "meh" and not scary, the scary part is the plot.

  • Fueki.4753Fueki.4753 Member ✭✭✭✭

    There is still the possibility that Blish's Golem got completely obliterated by the storm we have been fleeing from in that instance.
    That way, he'd definitely dead.

  • Veprovina.4876Veprovina.4876 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Fueki.4753 said:
    There is still the possibility that Blish's Golem got completely obliterated by the storm we have been fleeing from in that instance.
    That way, he'd definitely dead.

    Yeah, with what happened to Kralkatorrik, it's probably the most likely case.
    Unless we see him in another episode or EOD and Anet cares to explain how that is. :tongue:
    But i wouldn't mind seeing him again.

  • Randulf.7614Randulf.7614 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 7, 2021

    He was swallowed by Kralk since we were able to be tracked, but ofc no sign since. I would think if they want to pick the thread back up again, the connection is Taimi. There was the suggestion Taimi might utilise the same tech to save herself down the line. If Blish was to somehow return by whatever means the writers could find to restore his soul or consciousness or whatever, for Taimi and Blish to "walk off into the sunset" as sentient golems would be a suitable way to end her involvement in the wider story rather than just kill her off and it would also give Blish a happier ending. I think both characters have earned that

    What sleep is here? What dreams there are in the unctuous coiling of the snakes mortal shuffling. weapon in my hand. My hand the arcing deathblow at the end of all things. The horror. The horror. I embrace it. . .

  • Veprovina.4876Veprovina.4876 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Randulf.7614 said:
    He was swallowed by Kralk since we were able to be tracked, but ofc no sign since. I would think if they want to pick the thread back up again, the connection is Taimi. There was the suggestion Taimi might utilise the same tech to save herself down the line. If Blish was to somehow return by whatever means the writers could find to restore his soul or consciousness or whatever, for Taimi and Blish to "walk off into the sunset" as sentient golems would be a suitable way to end her involvement in the wider story rather than just kill her off and it would also give Blish a happier ending. I think both characters have earned that

    Oh yeah, Taimi is getting more sick in LS4, that's right! Honestly, i'd welcome a happy ending like this for them. Maybe they can do it for EoD, somehow bring Blish back and have Taimi transfer to a golem as well. They definitely deserved a happy ending, both of them.

    I geuss the way they bring blish back is to assume he was conscious in the tracker the whole time, but since he was in an Elder Dragon, it's kind of stupid to assume Kralkatorrik wouldn't notice a tracker on him. And in the end, we see that Kralk was split between his torment and normal part so, what if the normal part of Kralk concealed Blish and allowed him to track? Kralk did want to kill himself after all, but the torment part wouldn't stop eating and he didn't have control over that. So he did what he could to let him be tracked, so that eventually Aurene and others would find and destroy him, freeing him from his torment. In the process, when he died, as a "thank you" to Blish, he teleports him somewhere to be found later, in his inactive state.

  • @Fueki.4753 said:
    I consider the way he ended up to be the opposite of the docks.
    At the docks, he was just powered down, with all the functions, including consciousness. still intact.

    At the end however, all the higher functions, including conscious, seized to function, while his power source was still running.
    Where his unconscious soul is trapped in the Golem is an unsolved mystery.

    If "higher functions" meant consciousness, then that would imply there is no soul, since the soul would be the power source and the cause of consciousness. I read "higher functions" to refer to the golem body's sensory functions.

    @Veprovina.4876 said:
    But he isn't right? He's just in a personal hell. The bolded part you wrote sound quite like hell to me. Or at least the worst psychological torture. Hell doesn't just have to be "pain", and you can suffer in all kinds of ways. And i think he is suffering, if the docks are anything to go by. :cry: That last sunspear lady on the griffon quest as well, but at least Kormir gave her telephaty (or whoever), so she can at least talk to people and not go insane as much. Blish can't even do that.

    It's the equivalent of being completely paralyzed, blind, deaf and mute with no sense of taste or smell. It's just existing with no sensory input, it's horrifying!
    And yes, there's still unanswered questions on how exactly he works but from what info we have, it's kind of really sad and horrible what happened to him.

    "Hell" implies torture and, usually, another dimension. But there's no actual torture occurring which is why I'd disagree with the use of the phrase "personal hell". And depending on the individual in question, the lack of senses wouldn't really affect them (though most indeed would be, but it's hard to be truly certain of such because total sensory deprivation is still a thing of fiction afaik; at least while also being recoverable).

    You say it's horrifying but... isn't that essentially what sleep ultimately is? Or being in a coma? Eventually your mind would begin creating scenarios as while you may be deprived of senses, you're not deprived of thoughts.

    While not an ideal state, I wouldn't consider it hell or horrifying. Not like being in a perpetually alternating pain-inflicting machine/spell (that is, constant pain, but the method of inducing pain changes every so often so that you don't get used to it - being someone with migraines and back pains perpetually for a decade, I stopped feeling that pain, until I went to a chiropractor and suddenly realized how much better my back felt).

    I suppose Anet could be saving him for another story if his body somehow survived Kralkatorrik.

    I'm pretty sure they won't use him again. If they wanted to recover him, they would have at least showcased his body on the epilogue airship if nothing else. If they could they would have gotten Blish's VA and reactivated him for a final moment of reunion and joy; if they couldn't get the VA, they'd just leave it open ended.

    Instead, they left it with all implication being that he is gone.

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  • The Greyhawk.9107The Greyhawk.9107 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Gunna be frank, I hate the idea of Taimi "transferring" herself into a golem. Like, really hate it. Which means its probably going to happen.

    Hate Is Fuel.

  • Taimi gonna be the first Dalek.

  • Veprovina.4876Veprovina.4876 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @The Greyhawk.9107 said:
    Gunna be frank, I hate the idea of Taimi "transferring" herself into a golem. Like, really hate it. Which means its probably going to happen.

    Still, she either dies (probably some heroic death), gets cured or transfers to a golem. She's dying, so there's not much direction they can go after that...

  • The Greyhawk.9107The Greyhawk.9107 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Veprovina.4876 said:

    @The Greyhawk.9107 said:
    Gunna be frank, I hate the idea of Taimi "transferring" herself into a golem. Like, really hate it. Which means its probably going to happen.

    Still, she either dies (probably some heroic death), gets cured or transfers to a golem. She's dying, so there's not much direction they can go after that...

    Well, there is the fourth path....Anet forgets that story thread like they've done so many times before and nothing happens to Taimi.

    Hate Is Fuel.

  • draxynnic.3719draxynnic.3719 Member ✭✭✭✭

    On the question of Blish being 'tortured':

    I have come across references to sensory deprivation being used as a long-term method of... enhanced interrogation. It's one of those things that doesn't sound as bad as inflicting physical pain, and it probably doesn't generate results as quickly, but it does have long-term psychological effects. Like solitary confinement on non-introverts but so much worse.

  • Veprovina.4876Veprovina.4876 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @The Greyhawk.9107 said:

    @Veprovina.4876 said:

    @The Greyhawk.9107 said:
    Gunna be frank, I hate the idea of Taimi "transferring" herself into a golem. Like, really hate it. Which means its probably going to happen.

    Still, she either dies (probably some heroic death), gets cured or transfers to a golem. She's dying, so there's not much direction they can go after that...

    Well, there is the fourth path....Anet forgets that story thread like they've done so many times before and nothing happens to Taimi.

    Haha, well they kinda made it front and center for a few episodes, would be kinda weird if they don't do anything with that.
    They did bake in an "escape plan" though, when asked "how she is" or something by the commander, taimi says she might have a month or might be years.

    Translation - we don't know when or if we're going to continue that story thread. :sweat_smile:

    If nothing ends up happening, it'll just mean that "hey, turns out she didn't get worse all this time trolololo". :sweat_smile:

    @draxynnic.3719 said:
    On the question of Blish being 'tortured':

    I have come across references to sensory deprivation being used as a long-term method of... enhanced interrogation. It's one of those things that doesn't sound as bad as inflicting physical pain, and it probably doesn't generate results as quickly, but it does have long-term psychological effects. Like solitary confinement on non-introverts but so much worse.

    Yes, that's what i think Blish's fate implied. Some think it's just like sleep while some think it's torture.
    But since Anet didn't exactly provide closure on Blish, i wonder if they intend to somehow continue his story. There could be scenarios where he gets out of that situation more or less intact. So if they do bring him back, it would be interesting if they delve into the psychological effects of such prolonged sensory depravation. I mean, his first experience with that on the docks wasn't pleasant...

  • @draxynnic.3719 said:
    On the question of Blish being 'tortured':

    I have come across references to sensory deprivation being used as a long-term method of... enhanced interrogation. It's one of those things that doesn't sound as bad as inflicting physical pain, and it probably doesn't generate results as quickly, but it does have long-term psychological effects. Like solitary confinement on non-introverts but so much worse.

    To clarify, I wasn't trying to imply there'd be no psychological effects. Just that it isn't really torture or "being in hell". But the effects are probably stronger on people who aren't introverts who prefer doing nothing more often than not, so I'm clearly bias.

    @Veprovina.4876 said:
    But since Anet didn't exactly provide closure on Blish, i wonder if they intend to somehow continue his story.

    I kind of feel like the lack of closure is the closure. Just like how we don't really get closure over, say, Demmi's death, we didn't over Blish's death. Blish "died", just as many NPCs before did, and the only ones to get closure would be Tonn/Apatia, Eir, and Trahearne.

    I'm just repeating myself at this point, but I really do feel like if they were entertaining the possibility of Blish's survival, they'd have shown his golem's body in the final S4 instances - either inside Kralkatorrik before the fight, or on the airship. To show that the body, if nothing else, can be/was recovered. Could still lead to "Blish is gone", but it won't be a huge asspull to bring him back from nowhere when there was no trace of him in E6 and no mention of the possibility of his survival in E4/E5/E6.

    I feel like bringing Blish back in any form other than a ghost, would be like bringing Almorra back to life because "ohey we found a way to resurrect her off screen" because resurrection magic, while super rare, is a thing.

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