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Are the devs happy with fractal balance?

The "META" team is all DPS

https://discretize.eu/

And there's really only 1 acceptable defensive support (HB) from the high-end community's perspective. Given the number of different supports and DPS in this game, this feels kinda broken. Am curious how the devs feel about it, not like they're around much on this forum these days, but would like some type of response. Having such a restrictive meta is annoying and discouraging once you get to like t3 and people are lecturing you on your playstyle (even if your failure rate in pugs is low). Why have so many different class and stat combinations when the metas are so narrow? The game really should do a better job of both balancing (creating more diversity in play styles) as well as funneling (making sure you don't invest too muchin the wrong gear). In practice I'm sure fractals are doable in a part of all clerics and/or knight's but the community wouldn't have it I'm sure and so I feel like there's some definite improvements needed here.

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Comments

  • Infusion.7149Infusion.7149 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 7, 2021

    It's due to role compression and how strong aegis from mantra of solace is on 12 base cooldown as well as sanctuary as a CC skill. Theoretically you could run chrono+druid as older times or even chrono+alacrity renegade but the alacrity uptime is going to be much poorer with chrono+druid unless you run full boon chrono.

    That's not even counting the fact that chronos suffer immensely when things die quickly because they don't get to make full use of their shatters and slow uptime will be terrible. Typically you need a few seconds for the phantasms to do their full damage so chrono functions more similar to a fast ramping condi build.

    The best way to fix this without completely breaking the game (or touching fractals) is to make boon daredevil viable in fractals by having a 80-100% Boon duration daredevil with Improv (Deadly arts) + sleight of hand be able to upkeep quickness. The quickness could be tacked on to Bountiful Theft or less ideally, Thrill of the Crime. The damage isn't insane and it can't legitimately heal on par with HB.

    Class by class , thief is in the worst spot right now I would think.

    Requested or wanted

    • Firebrand: people will run 4 of them in 100CM due to sanctuary and aegis spam
    • Renegade: breaks CC bars quickly, alacrity , boon rip , situational soulcleave healing + high self sustain
    • Berserker Warrior: "BS" wanted in most parties and in CMs other than 100CM because banners provide a sizable stat bonus ; if the warrior is decent they will have double maces for CC
    • Soulbeast Ranger: wanted as soulbeast in most CM parties and decent cleave + burst , frost spirit, spotter or One Wolf Pack sharing ; can "abuse" axe reflects sometimes vs projectiles such as on 98CM / 99CM

    Not requested

    • Ele - Weaver: wanted for old CMs by people that adhere to rigid meta, unwanted elsewhere but decent cleave ; struggles with No Pain no Gain , Social Awkwardness, Flux Bomb, and condi heavy enemies ; the rotation is difficult so it means that people that want optimal performance are better off with other classes
    • Engi - Holo: high cleave, decent power burst, self sustain on photon forge and using AED ... only can boon rip with Throw Mine or sigils
    • Engi - Scrapper: okay damage with high sustain, it's been benchmarked around 15% less damage than holo but roughly on par with a power reaper with all offensive utilities ; stealth skips via stealth gyro
    • Ele - Tempest: high cleave , high self protection generation , water variant can maintain scholar uptime easier, can work around Social Awkwardness and Flux Bombs ... against smaller hitboxes or fights without adds it loses out damage
    • Guard - DH: high power burst, slight self sustain via Wings of Resolve and Virtue of Resolve ; respectable overall damage
    • Mes - Chrono: ramp time on clones and phantasms, against adds it has very low slow uptime but can generate party quickness using Seize the Moment (StM)
    • Mes - Mirage: usable in 100CM but not ideal elsewhere if you run it as condi due to the way confusion and torment work
    • Necro - Reaper: workable in most fractals with adds even if it is not best DPS , can work around instabilities and remove boons in <20s interval without taking extra utilities or traits ; self quickness if your firebrand is not great
    • Necro - Scourge: workable in most fractals with many adds, usable in 100CM even if not meta
    • Daredevil - there's nothing that really warrants bringing one right now unless the fractal level has a skip ; since condi thief is not really a thing it is largely unusable for 100CM
  • Firebeard.1746Firebeard.1746 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 7, 2021

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:
    You don't have to do what is meta. Create your own group if you don't see any to your liking in the LFG.

    DPS has been the go to for just about everywhere in PvE over the past 8+ years.

    Meta is usually always fairly narrow to a degree and has been for 8+ years.

    Usually the people in PuGs don't care, but i think it's toxic some people feel they have to lecture people on how to play, especially with fractals which has a massive overhead to climbing (ar collection + ascended gear). If i was more fragile i might quit the game mode altogether. Honestly i have run some parties with almost all supports in lower tiers because of how sparse the player base is. You have to use what's available.

    I just would like some wind knocked out of the sails of the everyone is dps meta.

    Which by the way was how i started this character but because of lack of support while climbing, i swapped it into support before i invested too much into the character.

  • Ayrilana.1396Ayrilana.1396 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Firebeard.1746 said:

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:
    You don't have to do what is meta. Create your own group if you don't see any to your liking in the LFG.

    DPS has been the go to for just about everywhere in PvE over the past 8+ years.

    Meta is usually always fairly narrow to a degree and has been for 8+ years.

    Usually the people in PuGs don't care, but i think it's toxic some people feel they have to lecture people on how to play, especially with fractals which has a massive overhead to climbing (ar collection + ascended gear). If i was more fragile i might quit the game mode altogether. Honestly i have run some parties with almost all supports in lower tiers because of how sparse the player base is. You have to use what's available.

    It depends on more than just simply telling someone how to play in order for something to be toxic. If the people in pugs usually don't care then why is this an issue for you? It seems your issue has more to do with how a handful of players treat you than the meta itself.

  • Firebeard.1746Firebeard.1746 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:

    @Firebeard.1746 said:

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:
    You don't have to do what is meta. Create your own group if you don't see any to your liking in the LFG.

    DPS has been the go to for just about everywhere in PvE over the past 8+ years.

    Meta is usually always fairly narrow to a degree and has been for 8+ years.

    Usually the people in PuGs don't care, but i think it's toxic some people feel they have to lecture people on how to play, especially with fractals which has a massive overhead to climbing (ar collection + ascended gear). If i was more fragile i might quit the game mode altogether. Honestly i have run some parties with almost all supports in lower tiers because of how sparse the player base is. You have to use what's available.

    It depends on more than just simply telling someone how to play in order for something to be toxic. If the people in pugs usually don't care then why is this an issue for you? It seems your issue has more to do with how a handful of players treat you than the meta itself.

    Yeah, it's more the latter, but i feel like if things were balanced better they'd have less to troll about. Imo it's really condescending and discouraging in the context if everything it takes to climb fractals (and the span of time it took).

  • Ayrilana.1396Ayrilana.1396 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Firebeard.1746 said:

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:

    @Firebeard.1746 said:

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:
    You don't have to do what is meta. Create your own group if you don't see any to your liking in the LFG.

    DPS has been the go to for just about everywhere in PvE over the past 8+ years.

    Meta is usually always fairly narrow to a degree and has been for 8+ years.

    Usually the people in PuGs don't care, but i think it's toxic some people feel they have to lecture people on how to play, especially with fractals which has a massive overhead to climbing (ar collection + ascended gear). If i was more fragile i might quit the game mode altogether. Honestly i have run some parties with almost all supports in lower tiers because of how sparse the player base is. You have to use what's available.

    It depends on more than just simply telling someone how to play in order for something to be toxic. If the people in pugs usually don't care then why is this an issue for you? It seems your issue has more to do with how a handful of players treat you than the meta itself.

    Yeah, it's more the latter, but i feel like if things were balanced better they'd have less to troll about. Imo it's really condescending and discouraging in the context if everything it takes to climb fractals (and the span of time it took).

    The problem is that you can't balance the meta as a new meta would just end up being created. The only really issue is whether fractals can be completed with all classes a(and many builds) which can be done. There will always be those who try to tell people what to do and can be toxic at times about it. If tolerating those type of players is difficult then the best thing would be to simply leave the group and find another group whether it be joining another or creating one of your own. Changing the meta isn't going to do anything about those types of players.

  • Fuchslein.8639Fuchslein.8639 Member ✭✭✭

    As much as I like to complain, balancing is not an easy thing. Especially because everyone wants something different (which is not to say that the balancing in GW2 is good).
    And most importantly, no matter how something is balanced, there will always be meta-builds.
    Better be happy about tools like ArcDPS.
    When I started with HOT, meta wasn't a build, it was a class ^^''. Later fractal meta was 4 necros+1druid.
    From then on we went a long way and I think Meta includes a lot of classes now.

    And as was said many times here in the forum, you can simply join groups that do not request such things and if people then want to bit***ing ignore or block them simply. That way you hit them the most.

  • Hannelore.8153Hannelore.8153 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 8, 2021

    Its because Quickness and Alacrity are the only two boons that truly matter. Everything else is useful, yes, like Aegis, Protection and even Retaliation, but overall your party's performance will depend on those two boons along with Might and Fury.

    One problem is we have no viable tanking mechanics. Another is many boons are DPS-centric. Nerfing Quickness would help, but it'd still be a required component of any fight even if it provided only 5% extra attack speed.

    The game has always been lopsided towards pure DPS setups with a single full support or hybrid support player to carry the entire party, maybe two in raids due to the increased player count but that's about it. And the devs are unlikely to change this because they don't know how to make content that's not a DPS check anymore, and that's rather unfortunate.

    Hint: Underground Facility is a good example of versatile mechanics. Deepstone is another good example. A bad example would be Siren's Reef, which may as well be called One Thousand Years of Bosses.

    Hannah | Daisuki[SUKI] Founder, Ehmry Bay, NA | 24 charas, 18k hours, 29k AP | ♀♥♀
    No need to be best, only good and kind.

  • Rodrick.1942Rodrick.1942 Member ✭✭✭

    @Hannelore.8153 said:
    Its because Quickness and Alacrity are the only two boons that truly matter. Everything else is useful, yes, like Aegis, Protection and even Retaliation, but overall your party's performance will depend on those two boons along with Might and Fury.

    One problem is we have no viable tanking mechanics. Another is many boons are DPS-centric. Nerfing Quickness would help, but it'd still be a required component of any fight even if it provided only 5% extra attack speed.

    The game has always been lopsided towards pure DPS setups with a single full support or hybrid support player to carry the entire party, maybe two in raids due to the increased player count but that's about it. And the devs are unlikely to change this because they don't know how to make content that's not a DPS check anymore, and that's rather unfortunate.

    Hint: Underground Facility is a good example of versatile mechanics. Deepstone is another good example. A bad example would be Siren's Reef, which may as well be called One Thousand Years of Bosses.

    Siren's reef is the response from dev to tell us that "you need decent support / healer or different tactics to finish this fractal ", however player rate this one is a bad fractal just because they can't use no healer comp to finish this one.

    Another example is the removed instability "bird", this one has an easiest solution to counter : have someone to spam resistant to ignore blind. but people just don't like it and don't want to adjust build.

    So the reason this game always been toward dps check is our attitude, not dev's attitude.

  • Obtena.7952Obtena.7952 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 8, 2021

    @Firebeard.1746 said:

    The "META" team is all DPS

    https://discretize.eu/

    And there's really only 1 acceptable defensive support (HB) from the high-end community's perspective. Given the number of different supports and DPS in this game, this feels kinda broken. Am curious how the devs feel about it, not like they're around much on this forum these days, but would like some type of response. Having such a restrictive meta is annoying and discouraging once you get to like t3 and people are lecturing you on your playstyle (even if your failure rate in pugs is low). Why have so many different class and stat combinations when the metas are so narrow? The game really should do a better job of both balancing (creating more diversity in play styles) as well as funneling (making sure you don't invest too muchin the wrong gear). In practice I'm sure fractals are doable in a part of all clerics and/or knight's but the community wouldn't have it I'm sure and so I feel like there's some definite improvements needed here.

    Except NO instanced team content is balanced to meta in the first place, so the question is devs are happy with it doesn't really make sense. You already have what you ask for here ... you just need to choose how you play to do it.

    Abuse from people that tell you how to play is not a reason to change a class in a game that is designed and works to allow you to play how you want.

  • Firebeard.1746Firebeard.1746 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 8, 2021

    @Rodrick.1942 said:

    @Hannelore.8153 said:
    Its because Quickness and Alacrity are the only two boons that truly matter. Everything else is useful, yes, like Aegis, Protection and even Retaliation, but overall your party's performance will depend on those two boons along with Might and Fury.

    One problem is we have no viable tanking mechanics. Another is many boons are DPS-centric. Nerfing Quickness would help, but it'd still be a required component of any fight even if it provided only 5% extra attack speed.

    The game has always been lopsided towards pure DPS setups with a single full support or hybrid support player to carry the entire party, maybe two in raids due to the increased player count but that's about it. And the devs are unlikely to change this because they don't know how to make content that's not a DPS check anymore, and that's rather unfortunate.

    Hint: Underground Facility is a good example of versatile mechanics. Deepstone is another good example. A bad example would be Siren's Reef, which may as well be called One Thousand Years of Bosses.

    Siren's reef is the response from dev to tell us that "you need decent support / healer or different tactics to finish this fractal ", however player rate this one is a bad fractal just because they can't use no healer comp to finish this one.

    Another example is the removed instability "bird", this one has an easiest solution to counter : have someone to spam resistant to ignore blind. but people just don't like it and don't want to adjust build.

    So the reason this game always been toward dps check is our attitude, not dev's attitude.

    That's interesting because I've always seen Siren's as a soft DPS check too, if those adds don't go down it's a wipe. There was once when i was carried by some crazy DPS god who's ignored them, but I've literally had to teach tons of teams to keep them down or we'll be overwhelmed because they couldn't do Hyperfocused DPS god.

    Though a way the devs could take emphasis off DPS is to trigger events/mechanics on certain boss health %s. Like instead of doing the adds on a timer like Siren's, do it at boss health intervals so your team could end up getting zerged. And maybe not despawn adds on boss death.

  • Rodrick.1942Rodrick.1942 Member ✭✭✭

    @Firebeard.1746 said:

    @Rodrick.1942 said:

    @Hannelore.8153 said:
    Its because Quickness and Alacrity are the only two boons that truly matter. Everything else is useful, yes, like Aegis, Protection and even Retaliation, but overall your party's performance will depend on those two boons along with Might and Fury.

    One problem is we have no viable tanking mechanics. Another is many boons are DPS-centric. Nerfing Quickness would help, but it'd still be a required component of any fight even if it provided only 5% extra attack speed.

    The game has always been lopsided towards pure DPS setups with a single full support or hybrid support player to carry the entire party, maybe two in raids due to the increased player count but that's about it. And the devs are unlikely to change this because they don't know how to make content that's not a DPS check anymore, and that's rather unfortunate.

    Hint: Underground Facility is a good example of versatile mechanics. Deepstone is another good example. A bad example would be Siren's Reef, which may as well be called One Thousand Years of Bosses.

    Siren's reef is the response from dev to tell us that "you need decent support / healer or different tactics to finish this fractal ", however player rate this one is a bad fractal just because they can't use no healer comp to finish this one.

    Another example is the removed instability "bird", this one has an easiest solution to counter : have someone to spam resistant to ignore blind. but people just don't like it and don't want to adjust build.

    So the reason this game always been toward dps check is our attitude, not dev's attitude.

    That's interesting because I've always seen Siren's as a soft DPS check too, if those adds don't go down it's a wipe. There was once when i was carried by some crazy DPS god who's ignored them, but I've literally had to teach tons of teams to keep them down or we'll be overwhelmed because they couldn't do Hyperfocused DPS god.

    Though a way the devs could take emphasis off DPS is to trigger events/mechanics on certain boss health %s. Like instead of doing the adds on a timer like Siren's, do it at boss health intervals so your team could end up getting zerged. And maybe not despawn adds on boss death.

    You're right it's a soft dps check, however it's also a race to see who can keep their breath until last sec. FB need to spam resistant to ignore condi from adds, endless stab to counter cc, and have ren to help to heal group by using Kala elite skill or have a hybrid scourge to spam barrier/ condi spread.

    it's one of the fractal I like because it forces us to change the way to play fractal, some build that people never think about it before become a thing (eg : condi herald )

  • Infusion.7149Infusion.7149 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Firebeard.1746 said:
    That's interesting because I've always seen Siren's as a soft DPS check too, if those adds don't go down it's a wipe. There was once when i was carried by some crazy DPS god who's ignored them, but I've literally had to teach tons of teams to keep them down or we'll be overwhelmed because they couldn't do Hyperfocused DPS god.

    Though a way the devs could take emphasis off DPS is to trigger events/mechanics on certain boss health %s. Like instead of doing the adds on a timer like Siren's, do it at boss health intervals so your team could end up getting zerged. And maybe not despawn adds on boss death.

    That's why every decent fractal build has cleave and people generally don't run single or two target weapons such as rifle deadeye or dagger soulbeast. Current meta classes such as soulbeast (unless the person camps longbow) and banner berserker cleave 3 targets.

    Siren's Reef is basically a scenario where Photon Forge shines because it cleaves 5 targets with 240 range and benchmarks 25K or so just on PF auto; likewise condi firebrand with F1 resets on every mob death.

  • Rodrick.1942Rodrick.1942 Member ✭✭✭
    edited February 8, 2021

    @Nephalem.8921 said:

    @Rodrick.1942 said:
    You're right it's a soft dps check, however it's also a race to see who can keep their breath until last sec. FB need to spam resistant to ignore condi from adds, endless stab to counter cc, and have ren to help to heal group by using Kala elite skill or have a hybrid scourge to spam barrier/ condi spread.

    it's one of the fractal I like because it forces us to change the way to play fractal, some build that people never think about it before become a thing (eg : condi herald )

    In which bizarro world is condi herald useful in fractals? sorry but no, condi herald is not helping anyone in instanced content. sirens reef is so hated by a lot of the fractal community because you cant really speedrun it. portals dont work with the chest and the cannon event is just annoying. The endboss isnt the problem. SA makes it incredible annoying and stab doesnt even work vs most stuff.
    4necros + druid was never meta. it was a brainless way to complete them half afk but considerably slower than a decent comp with quickness and actual meta strats.
    The meta in every mmo is dps. you only bring the support needed to survive. even in trinity games they dont take a healer if it isnt needed.
    @Firebeard.1746 Are you using arc? it shows way more than just dps. also healing, boons and cc. you can measure the usefulness of a build quite easy with it. there is a difference if you just complete the fractals or if you complete them in 20min. especially when some players completed them literally 1000 times.

    speedrun, annoyed, can't see the value of some off meta build.

    go back to cms then, if you don't like to try new stuff. but don't expect Anet will keep announcing the similar design content all the time because people like me

    still exists in gw2 .

  • Yes, yes they are happy with fractal balance. Next question?

  • Katary.7096Katary.7096 Member ✭✭✭

    @Rodrick.1942 said:
    go back to cms then, if you don't like to try new stuff.

    Sunqua Peak CM made people adopt "new stuff" though.

  • man, if you think fractal meta is restrictive, wait until you find out about the chrono stack

  • WindBlade.8749WindBlade.8749 Member ✭✭✭
    edited February 8, 2021

    @Firebeard.1746 said:

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:
    You don't have to do what is meta. Create your own group if you don't see any to your liking in the LFG.

    DPS has been the go to for just about everywhere in PvE over the past 8+ years.

    Meta is usually always fairly narrow to a degree and has been for 8+ years.

    Usually the people in PuGs don't care, but i think it's toxic some people feel they have to lecture people on how to play, especially with fractals which has a massive overhead to climbing (ar collection + ascended gear). If i was more fragile i might quit the game mode altogether. Honestly i have run some parties with almost all supports in lower tiers because of how sparse the player base is. You have to use what's available.

    I just would like some wind knocked out of the sails of the everyone is dps meta.

    Which by the way was how i started this character but because of lack of support while climbing, i swapped it into support before i invested too much into the character.

    More than lecturing i think people are just annoyed when in an content that is hard compared to the others contents of the game you don't pull your weight, as long your dps is fine or your boon uptime is ok, only people that like optimisation will complain, most of class in this game can be dps in cm with no real problem but the problem is more on buffer, there is no other buffer for 5 man content than fb, the game really need new one, we only have 10 man support that are not fit for 5 man at all (without even speaking about how broken fb egide is) same for alac, why only two specialization in this game can give it ?

  • Firebeard.1746Firebeard.1746 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 8, 2021

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    No, you literally do not want that. Let me explain:
    The common misconception that class balance is to blame for the dps meta is just that: a misconception. This game is designed from the ground up with active damage avoidance and mitigation in mind. What this means is that good players are more than capable to mitigate all or nearly all damage via pure skill. In any case where this is not the case, defensive skills and boons are taken. The games design from the ground up is responsible for the dps meta, not class balance (though balance can affect how easy or difficult certain encounter can be for certain classes).

    IF the developers actually designed an encounter WITHOUT focus on damage, and most encounters are not that focused on damage to begin with as to make the damage requirements difficult to meet, you would end up with fights similar to: Xera, Deimos, Dhuum, Qadim 2, etc. Essentially fight with a ton of extra mechanics which players have to deal with instead of just dealing damage. Now take a guess which fights are most difficult for non static players to tackle: the ones where more than only dps is expected and players need to fulfill specific tasks.

    Even 100CM meets exactly that criteria. The main mechanic to overcome is positioning and crowd control aka defiance bars. Expert players are more than capable of running this CM on differing classes, meeting the cc requirements and positioning so that damage to group is minimal (even running without healers). Weaker players can not and are either locked out of the fractal or dependent on running the most run meta class as to ease success.

    What you actually want IS fights designed around damage and nothing else, because every class in this game can meet dps requirements from a balance perspective.

    This. I believe is the problem. An online game doesn't do as well with that. And there's tons of players that for whatever reason, slow reflexes, latency, etc just don't do well with this. I believe my super high completion % on WoJ with an earthen heal tempest auramancer is because it takes the edge off of that sort of mechanic. 40% DR with 100% uptime gives people a chance to react to the chains for another tick or two and it's the difference between a death and non-death. TBH balancing an Iframe mechanic like dodging against latency is horrendous. If the mechanic is too long, everyone can easily get out, there's no skill involved. If it's too short, lots of people die, perhaps not even due to their own issues. I guess my biggest issue with the elitists in general is they're allergic to more fault tolerant setups, success rates be damned, because if you're not killing it in 30s, you're "holding everyone back"

    I think the latter part is the real issue people have. Though honestly, I feel like a system where people have to stack to boonshare is also a dumb design because there's less freedom in mechanic design (and leads to some of the horrendous mechanics you mention). Heck, even healing is severely limited by range.

    Though some of those mechanics on those fights aren't much better than DPS meta. Sabetha has a ridiculously short time to react for throwing the bomb or barrel (it's been a while), which without special bindings is clunky to pull off, dhuum has this ridiculous mechanic on a tight timer as well that almost requires its own skill to do. "Twitchy" mechanics seem to be the gw2 modus operandi. Even on those hard fights

  • Hannelore.8153Hannelore.8153 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 8, 2021

    @WindBlade.8749 said:

    @Firebeard.1746 said:

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:
    You don't have to do what is meta. Create your own group if you don't see any to your liking in the LFG.

    DPS has been the go to for just about everywhere in PvE over the past 8+ years.

    Meta is usually always fairly narrow to a degree and has been for 8+ years.

    Usually the people in PuGs don't care, but i think it's toxic some people feel they have to lecture people on how to play, especially with fractals which has a massive overhead to climbing (ar collection + ascended gear). If i was more fragile i might quit the game mode altogether. Honestly i have run some parties with almost all supports in lower tiers because of how sparse the player base is. You have to use what's available.

    I just would like some wind knocked out of the sails of the everyone is dps meta.

    Which by the way was how i started this character but because of lack of support while climbing, i swapped it into support before i invested too much into the character.

    More than lecturing i think people are just annoyed when in an content that is hard compared to the others contents of the game you don't pull your weight, as long your dps is fine or your boon uptime is ok, only people that like optimisation will complain, most of class in this game can be dps in cm with no real problem but the problem is more on buffer, there is no other buffer for 5 man content than fb, the game really need new one, we only have 10 man support that are not fit for 5 man at all (without even speaking about how broken fb egide is) same for alac, why only two specialization in this game can give it ?

    This is the key point I was trying to make earlier. Its not just that two classes in the game can give Alacrity, its that only two specialisations (subclasses) can give it, which means that the overall amount of classes that provide Alacrity is a whopping 7%.

    And on top of that, one of them has a really hard time doing it, so generally isn't used for the task anymore.

    And don't even get me started on Firebrand and its monopoly on group Stability, with Rev barely competing, and no one else being able to do the job except a little bit from Scrapper, Chronomancer, etc

    Everyone wouldn't have to go DPS if it wasn't literally the only role they could play thats effective.

    Even when you count mechanics like reflects, the number of players that can do them is a very small amount of the overall player base, and that's why we end up like this. No one should be everything, but everyone has to be at least something, and right now that's just damage with maybe some heals and basic boons like Might if you want to support, that's it.

    One whole class (Warrior) is demoted purely to just increasing your stats, that's rediculous.

    Hannah | Daisuki[SUKI] Founder, Ehmry Bay, NA | 24 charas, 18k hours, 29k AP | ♀♥♀
    No need to be best, only good and kind.

  • Linken.6345Linken.6345 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Hannelore.8153 said:

    @WindBlade.8749 said:

    @Firebeard.1746 said:

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:
    You don't have to do what is meta. Create your own group if you don't see any to your liking in the LFG.

    DPS has been the go to for just about everywhere in PvE over the past 8+ years.

    Meta is usually always fairly narrow to a degree and has been for 8+ years.

    Usually the people in PuGs don't care, but i think it's toxic some people feel they have to lecture people on how to play, especially with fractals which has a massive overhead to climbing (ar collection + ascended gear). If i was more fragile i might quit the game mode altogether. Honestly i have run some parties with almost all supports in lower tiers because of how sparse the player base is. You have to use what's available.

    I just would like some wind knocked out of the sails of the everyone is dps meta.

    Which by the way was how i started this character but because of lack of support while climbing, i swapped it into support before i invested too much into the character.

    More than lecturing i think people are just annoyed when in an content that is hard compared to the others contents of the game you don't pull your weight, as long your dps is fine or your boon uptime is ok, only people that like optimisation will complain, most of class in this game can be dps in cm with no real problem but the problem is more on buffer, there is no other buffer for 5 man content than fb, the game really need new one, we only have 10 man support that are not fit for 5 man at all (without even speaking about how broken fb egide is) same for alac, why only two specialization in this game can give it ?

    This is the key point I was trying to make earlier. Its not just that two classes in the game can give Alacrity, its that only two specialisations (subclasses) can give it, which means that the overall amount of classes that provide Alacrity is a whopping 7%.

    And on top of that, one of them has a really hard time doing it, so generally isn't used for the task anymore.

    And don't even get me started on Firebrand and its monopoly on group Stability, with Rev barely competing, and no one else being able to do the job except a little bit from Scrapper, Chronomancer, etc

    Everyone wouldn't have to go DPS if it wasn't literally the only role they could play thats effective.

    Even when you count mechanics like reflects, the number of players that can do them is a very small amount of the overall player base, and that's why we end up like this. No one should be everything, but everyone has to be at least something, and right now that's just damage with maybe some heals and basic boons like Might if you want to support, that's it.

    One whole class (Warrior) is demoted purely to just increasing your stats, that's rediculous.

    2 classes increase stats dont forget ranger spirits mate.

  • sokeenoppa.5384sokeenoppa.5384 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Linken.6345 said:

    @Hannelore.8153 said:

    @WindBlade.8749 said:

    @Firebeard.1746 said:

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:
    You don't have to do what is meta. Create your own group if you don't see any to your liking in the LFG.

    DPS has been the go to for just about everywhere in PvE over the past 8+ years.

    Meta is usually always fairly narrow to a degree and has been for 8+ years.

    Usually the people in PuGs don't care, but i think it's toxic some people feel they have to lecture people on how to play, especially with fractals which has a massive overhead to climbing (ar collection + ascended gear). If i was more fragile i might quit the game mode altogether. Honestly i have run some parties with almost all supports in lower tiers because of how sparse the player base is. You have to use what's available.

    I just would like some wind knocked out of the sails of the everyone is dps meta.

    Which by the way was how i started this character but because of lack of support while climbing, i swapped it into support before i invested too much into the character.

    More than lecturing i think people are just annoyed when in an content that is hard compared to the others contents of the game you don't pull your weight, as long your dps is fine or your boon uptime is ok, only people that like optimisation will complain, most of class in this game can be dps in cm with no real problem but the problem is more on buffer, there is no other buffer for 5 man content than fb, the game really need new one, we only have 10 man support that are not fit for 5 man at all (without even speaking about how broken fb egide is) same for alac, why only two specialization in this game can give it ?

    This is the key point I was trying to make earlier. Its not just that two classes in the game can give Alacrity, its that only two specialisations (subclasses) can give it, which means that the overall amount of classes that provide Alacrity is a whopping 7%.

    And on top of that, one of them has a really hard time doing it, so generally isn't used for the task anymore.

    And don't even get me started on Firebrand and its monopoly on group Stability, with Rev barely competing, and no one else being able to do the job except a little bit from Scrapper, Chronomancer, etc

    Everyone wouldn't have to go DPS if it wasn't literally the only role they could play thats effective.

    Even when you count mechanics like reflects, the number of players that can do them is a very small amount of the overall player base, and that's why we end up like this. No one should be everything, but everyone has to be at least something, and right now that's just damage with maybe some heals and basic boons like Might if you want to support, that's it.

    One whole class (Warrior) is demoted purely to just increasing your stats, that's rediculous.

    2 classes increase stats dont forget ranger spirits mate.

    *3 dont forget AP from alac ^^

    I'll have two number 9s, a number 9 large, a number 6 with extra dip, a number 7, two number 45s, one with cheese, and a large soda.

  • @Hannelore.8153 said:
    This is the key point I was trying to make earlier. Its not just that two classes in the game can give Alacrity, its that only two specialisations (subclasses) can give it, which means that the overall amount of classes that provide Alacrity is a whopping 7%.

    Well yeah agree on this but I dunno how they will give alac to another class because Alacren is 1 button push 10 man perma alac with enough boon duration. They either have to nerf Alacren or powercreep the next class which can give alacrity so people will look at that class to replace Alacren.

    One whole class (Warrior) is demoted purely to just increasing your stats, that's ridiculous.

    Yeah I agree with this... the only thing people want to bring warrior in fractal or raid just stat increase outside boon, not the DPS no utility boon or whatsoever.

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:
    You don't have to do what is meta. Create your own group if you don't see any to your liking in the LFG.

    Not the entire meta but at least HB and Alacren must be present to have convenient run, the other DPS doesn't matter what class as long as they know what they doing but the 2 roles is just... way to good to pass because those 2 bring a lot of utility to deal with some instability too.

  • Ayrilana.1396Ayrilana.1396 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @DKRathalos.9625 said:

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:
    You don't have to do what is meta. Create your own group if you don't see any to your liking in the LFG.

    Not the entire meta but at least HB and Alacren must be present to have convenient run, the other DPS doesn't matter what class as long as they know what they doing but the 2 roles is just... way to good to pass because those 2 bring a lot of utility to deal with some instability too.

    Define convenient. I see “convenient” easily meaning different things to different people.

  • Katary.7096Katary.7096 Member ✭✭✭

    @Hannelore.8153 said:
    This is the key point I was trying to make earlier. Its not just that two classes in the game can give Alacrity, its that only two specialisations (subclasses) can give it, which means that the overall amount of classes that provide Alacrity is a whopping 7%.

    I understand why people would forget about core Revenant's ability to buff alacrity, since no one seems to use it, but it does indeed exist.

  • Ayrilana.1396Ayrilana.1396 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Katary.7096 said:

    @Hannelore.8153 said:
    This is the key point I was trying to make earlier. Its not just that two classes in the game can give Alacrity, its that only two specialisations (subclasses) can give it, which means that the overall amount of classes that provide Alacrity is a whopping 7%.

    I understand why people would forget about core Revenant's ability to buff alacrity, since no one seems to use it, but it does indeed exist.

    Their own alacrity but this doesn’t benefit the group.

  • @DKRathalos.9625 said:

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:
    You don't have to do what is meta. Create your own group if you don't see any to your liking in the LFG.

    Not the entire meta but at least HB and Alacren must be present to have convenient run, the other DPS doesn't matter what class as long as they know what they doing but the 2 roles is just... way to good to pass because those 2 bring a lot of utility to deal with some instability too.

    Healing Firebrands literally take any convenience or comfort out of a run due to abysmal DPS and usually really low average player skill.

    minecrafter

  • @Ayrilana.1396 said:

    @Katary.7096 said:

    @Hannelore.8153 said:
    This is the key point I was trying to make earlier. Its not just that two classes in the game can give Alacrity, its that only two specialisations (subclasses) can give it, which means that the overall amount of classes that provide Alacrity is a whopping 7%.

    I understand why people would forget about core Revenant's ability to buff alacrity, since no one seems to use it, but it does indeed exist.

    Their own alacrity but this doesn’t benefit the group.

    No it is group wide alacrity https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Serene_Rejuvenation

    It is trash though

  • Ayrilana.1396Ayrilana.1396 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Aceofsppades.6873 said:

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:

    @Katary.7096 said:

    @Hannelore.8153 said:
    This is the key point I was trying to make earlier. Its not just that two classes in the game can give Alacrity, its that only two specialisations (subclasses) can give it, which means that the overall amount of classes that provide Alacrity is a whopping 7%.

    I understand why people would forget about core Revenant's ability to buff alacrity, since no one seems to use it, but it does indeed exist.

    Their own alacrity but this doesn’t benefit the group.

    No it is group wide alacrity https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Serene_Rejuvenation

    It is trash though

    Oh I forgot about that. I thought they were referring to https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Ancient_Echo since the one you mentioned is used for heal renegade.

  • Dixa.6017Dixa.6017 Member ✭✭

    in a game without a holy trinity, how do you propose balancing these dungeons without homogenizing the classes? if everyone can be dps and everyone can be support....

  • Hannelore.8153Hannelore.8153 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 10, 2021

    @Dixa.6017 said:
    in a game without a holy trinity, how do you propose balancing these dungeons without homogenizing the classes? if everyone can be dps and everyone can be support....

    Everyone can't be support, that's the point. Only a few specific support classes are taken to anything, the only thing that changes is which class it is for the content, like how Druid works in raids but not in WvW, HB/Alacren is preferred for Fractals, etc.

    Meanwhile almost anyone can do good DPS regardless of class, and bring their own damage-centric boons like Might and Fury.

    We're very far from any true balance between the damage and support roles.

    Hannah | Daisuki[SUKI] Founder, Ehmry Bay, NA | 24 charas, 18k hours, 29k AP | ♀♥♀
    No need to be best, only good and kind.

  • Obtena.7952Obtena.7952 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 10, 2021

    @mindcircus.1506 said:
    At what point does the Guild Wars 2 community stop pointing at team compositions from a small Speed Running guild as something for Anet to base their balance around?

    They don't. Ideas like what we are seeing in this thread are baggage that people keep bringing with them from other games. That's why it's important for people to continue to argue that these kinds of threads aren't relevant to GW2 and explain why.

    @Firebeard.1746 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    No, you literally do not want that. Let me explain:
    The common misconception that class balance is to blame for the dps meta is just that: a misconception. This game is designed from the ground up with active damage avoidance and mitigation in mind. What this means is that good players are more than capable to mitigate all or nearly all damage via pure skill. In any case where this is not the case, defensive skills and boons are taken. The games design from the ground up is responsible for the dps meta, not class balance (though balance can affect how easy or difficult certain encounter can be for certain classes).

    IF the developers actually designed an encounter WITHOUT focus on damage, and most encounters are not that focused on damage to begin with as to make the damage requirements difficult to meet, you would end up with fights similar to: Xera, Deimos, Dhuum, Qadim 2, etc. Essentially fight with a ton of extra mechanics which players have to deal with instead of just dealing damage. Now take a guess which fights are most difficult for non static players to tackle: the ones where more than only dps is expected and players need to fulfill specific tasks.

    Even 100CM meets exactly that criteria. The main mechanic to overcome is positioning and crowd control aka defiance bars. Expert players are more than capable of running this CM on differing classes, meeting the cc requirements and positioning so that damage to group is minimal (even running without healers). Weaker players can not and are either locked out of the fractal or dependent on running the most run meta class as to ease success.

    What you actually want IS fights designed around damage and nothing else, because every class in this game can meet dps requirements from a balance perspective.

    This. I believe is the problem. An online game doesn't do as well with that. And there's tons of players that for whatever reason, slow reflexes, latency, etc just don't do well with this.

    That's not a problem in this game because even though the game is designed from the ground up with active damage avoidance and mitigation in mind, the threshold for success is so low and the options for gearing is so wide that it's not that critical for players to actively avoid and mitigate damage anyways.

    Abuse from people that tell you how to play is not a reason to change a class in a game that is designed and works to allow you to play how you want.

  • Firebeard.1746Firebeard.1746 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 10, 2021

    @Obtena.7952 said:
    That's not a problem in this game because even though the game is designed from the ground up with active damage avoidance and mitigation in mind, the threshold for success is so low and the options for gearing is so wide that it's not that critical for players to actively avoid and mitigate damage anyways.

    Except it's not that low, I know that's personal experience, etc. But I disagree with that attitude. Some of my strats for making foolproof groups revolve around not counting on people. interestingly enough I did WoJ as a DPS yesterday on a more traditional comp and lots of people died and it didn't do any better than my 3-healer juke groups. And honestly, when I've done WoJ in some random PuG I wasn't leading most of the time the group fails. I feel like that's proof enough. In the Pugging world I'd say it's anything but forgiving. Maybe if you have a static doing the content on a regular basis it gets better. I did have ONE impressive group of the many I've tried, but they seem like the exception more than the rule.

  • Ayrilana.1396Ayrilana.1396 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 10, 2021

    @Firebeard.1746 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:
    That's not a problem in this game because even though the game is designed from the ground up with active damage avoidance and mitigation in mind, the threshold for success is so low and the options for gearing is so wide that it's not that critical for players to actively avoid and mitigate damage anyways.

    Except it's not that low, I know that's personal experience, etc.

    If there's no timer then pretty much anything can go. If a group went entirely in nomads gear, and did poor DPS, they'd still eventually succeed. It would just take awhile. Is it the best way to do it? Definitely not but there's nothing really preventing that type of comp from doing it.

  • @Ayrilana.1396 said:

    @DKRathalos.9625 said:

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:
    You don't have to do what is meta. Create your own group if you don't see any to your liking in the LFG.

    Not the entire meta but at least HB and Alacren must be present to have convenient run, the other DPS doesn't matter what class as long as they know what they doing but the 2 roles is just... way to good to pass because those 2 bring a lot of utility to deal with some instability too.

    Define convenient. I see “convenient” easily meaning different things to different people.

    Convenient as in having lower cooldown from alacren and healing + other boon to keep those pugs alive and DPS ing, because if we create the own group at LFG I assume we are pugging and can't assume all pugs are good.. So having HB just kind of making it more convenient for the run with pugs because their mistake can be covered, sure they have to dodge the big attack though sometimes those can't be covered with HB.

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 10, 2021

    @Firebeard.1746 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:
    That's not a problem in this game because even though the game is designed from the ground up with active damage avoidance and mitigation in mind, the threshold for success is so low and the options for gearing is so wide that it's not that critical for players to actively avoid and mitigate damage anyways.

    Except it's not that low, I know that's personal experience, etc. But I disagree with that attitude. Some of my strats for making foolproof groups revolve around not counting on people. interestingly enough I did WoJ as a DPS yesterday on a more traditional comp and lots of people died and it didn't do any better than my 3-healer juke groups. And honestly, when I've done WoJ in some random PuG I wasn't leading most of the time the group fails. I feel like that's proof enough. In the Pugging world I'd say it's anything but forgiving. Maybe if you have a static doing the content on a regular basis it gets better. I did have ONE impressive group of the many I've tried, but they seem like the exception more than the rule.

    and thus we have the reason why gating is happening by experienced players.

    The vast majority of players are incompetent unless they've actively tried to improve their game understanding and performance. Not having to go against the games basic design or having to revert to sub-optimal "carry" builds, and even here there are strong accepted builds which can carry hard enough, is exactly the reason why players vet.

    Suffice to say, my personal experience has been drastically different than yours on strikes. I'd say excluding static runs or heavily stacked guild runs, my experience has been 8/10 successful runs on WoJ or Boneskinner, excluding a first wipe at Boneskinner until people find their dodge button again, on average. Then again I usually join KP groups and will take a look at the roster and setup, both to see how good a job the commander does if it's not me as well as to offer a class/role missing.

    Even the "pugging world" has stark differences in success and player experience even without requiring a static or semi static team, which often can carry this content and just fill up the roster with some extra bodies.

  • Fangoth.4503Fangoth.4503 Member ✭✭✭
    edited February 10, 2021

    @Firebeard.1746 said:

    The "META" team is all DPS

    https://discretize.eu/

    And there's really only 1 acceptable defensive support (HB) from the high-end community's perspective. Given the number of different supports and DPS in this game, this feels kinda broken. Am curious how the devs feel about it, not like they're around much on this forum these days, but would like some type of response. Having such a restrictive meta is annoying and discouraging once you get to like t3 and people are lecturing you on your playstyle (even if your failure rate in pugs is low). Why have so many different class and stat combinations when the metas are so narrow? The game really should do a better job of both balancing (creating more diversity in play styles) as well as funneling (making sure you don't invest too muchin the wrong gear). In practice I'm sure fractals are doable in a part of all clerics and/or knight's but the community wouldn't have it I'm sure and so I feel like there's some definite improvements needed here.

    ofc they are doable with cleric/knight you can even do them solo with that but no one want to waste that much time just for the pleasure to run inneficient or meme gear. comp are based with the objectif to kill the boss within a reasonable timeframe.

    gear wise everything is dirt cheap in gw2 so its not a big deal if you go wrong gear. Just remove infusion, change stat, put infusion back, runes, sigils and you're good to go as if it never happenned.

    people are not lecturing for no reason, maybe you were not failing mech but i guess you were failing at DPSing. its not all about mechs, you ofc have to do mechs properly but also to do your task (dps, give boon, heal or whatever you sign as) else you are just letting the group down.

    ideally i would remove all unecessary stats option so new player stop to feel they need to run toughness gear instead of using their "w" "a" "s" "d" "v" key.

    @Firebeard.1746 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:
    That's not a problem in this game because even though the game is designed from the ground up with active damage avoidance and mitigation in mind, the threshold for success is so low and the options for gearing is so wide that it's not that critical for players to actively avoid and mitigate damage anyways.

    Except it's not that low, I know that's personal experience, etc. But I disagree with that attitude. Some of my strats for making foolproof groups revolve around not counting on people. interestingly enough I did WoJ as a DPS yesterday on a more traditional comp and lots of people died and it didn't do any better than my 3-healer juke groups. And honestly, when I've done WoJ in some random PuG I wasn't leading most of the time the group fails. I feel like that's proof enough. In the Pugging world I'd say it's anything but forgiving. Maybe if you have a static doing the content on a regular basis it gets better. I did have ONE impressive group of the many I've tried, but they seem like the exception more than the rule.

    never had any problem with 2 healer, i just ask for 50 li/ess/vial, all the time give a shot to those that come asking to have a chance (not to those unable to use their keyboard and say "hi i play X, can i have a try" or soth similar), if someone doesn't perform descently i ask him to leave.

  • Firebeard.1746Firebeard.1746 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Firebeard.1746 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:
    That's not a problem in this game because even though the game is designed from the ground up with active damage avoidance and mitigation in mind, the threshold for success is so low and the options for gearing is so wide that it's not that critical for players to actively avoid and mitigate damage anyways.

    Except it's not that low, I know that's personal experience, etc. But I disagree with that attitude. Some of my strats for making foolproof groups revolve around not counting on people. interestingly enough I did WoJ as a DPS yesterday on a more traditional comp and lots of people died and it didn't do any better than my 3-healer juke groups. And honestly, when I've done WoJ in some random PuG I wasn't leading most of the time the group fails. I feel like that's proof enough. In the Pugging world I'd say it's anything but forgiving. Maybe if you have a static doing the content on a regular basis it gets better. I did have ONE impressive group of the many I've tried, but they seem like the exception more than the rule.

    and thus we have the reason why gating is happening by experienced players.

    The vast majority of players are incompetent unless they've actively tried to improve their game understanding and performance. Not having to go against the games basic design or having to revert to sub-optimal "carry" builds, and even here there are strong accepted builds which can carry hard enough, is exactly the reason why players vet.

    I'd say you have a flaw in your design if a majority of the player base struggles. Though I believe a good portion of that is self-inflicted. Not everyone can do twitchy glass cannon. Though that FoR DRM CM....

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Firebeard.1746 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Firebeard.1746 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:
    That's not a problem in this game because even though the game is designed from the ground up with active damage avoidance and mitigation in mind, the threshold for success is so low and the options for gearing is so wide that it's not that critical for players to actively avoid and mitigate damage anyways.

    Except it's not that low, I know that's personal experience, etc. But I disagree with that attitude. Some of my strats for making foolproof groups revolve around not counting on people. interestingly enough I did WoJ as a DPS yesterday on a more traditional comp and lots of people died and it didn't do any better than my 3-healer juke groups. And honestly, when I've done WoJ in some random PuG I wasn't leading most of the time the group fails. I feel like that's proof enough. In the Pugging world I'd say it's anything but forgiving. Maybe if you have a static doing the content on a regular basis it gets better. I did have ONE impressive group of the many I've tried, but they seem like the exception more than the rule.

    and thus we have the reason why gating is happening by experienced players.

    The vast majority of players are incompetent unless they've actively tried to improve their game understanding and performance. Not having to go against the games basic design or having to revert to sub-optimal "carry" builds, and even here there are strong accepted builds which can carry hard enough, is exactly the reason why players vet.

    I'd say you have a flaw in your design if a majority of the player base struggles. Though I believe a good portion of that is self-inflicted. Not everyone can do twitchy glass cannon. Though that FoR DRM CM....

    Ob absolutely, I fully attribute many of the issues we have to the games design, no matter how brilliant or fun it might be once a player has adapted.

    Guild Wars 2 main player performance issues stem from:

    • the vast freedom of build possibilities. Both in regards to traits, itemization, skill selection, etc. all the way to weapon selection. This freedom makes for an amazing build system compared to most other MMORPGs. It also means players can absolutely f-up their builds unless very experienced
    • the non existent trinity makes this game stand out, even among other games with dodge mechanics supporter by a trinity system. It takes a lot of practice and dedication to adapt to this games combat
    • a far to easy core world. Which makes sense as to not scare off players, but then comes right around to bite them in the behind once actually challenging content gets introduced

    I wouldn't go so far in saying a majority of the player base struggles. I personally believe a large part of the player base simply does not care. Many are perfectly fine and happy with just logging in and doing some relaxing pve and open world stuff. The main difficulties arise from wanting to transition from this world to more dedicated content.

  • Touchme.1097Touchme.1097 Member ✭✭✭

    I can't see how a full DPS team can survive an Underground Facility with Social Awkwardness, Fractal Vindicators and Sugar Rush, , those Dredges hit so hard today that I can't pug it in T4. I think the balance issue should address some of the instability+fractal scale combination that make the game too hard of a challenge

  • Armen.1483Armen.1483 Member ✭✭✭
    edited February 10, 2021

    @Firebeard.1746 said:

    The "META" team is all DPS

    https://discretize.eu/

    And there's really only 1 acceptable defensive support (HB) from the high-end community's perspective. Given the number of different supports and DPS in this game, this feels kinda broken. Am curious how the devs feel about it, not like they're around much on this forum these days, but would like some type of response. Having such a restrictive meta is annoying and discouraging once you get to like t3 and people are lecturing you on your playstyle (even if your failure rate in pugs is low). Why have so many different class and stat combinations when the metas are so narrow? The game really should do a better job of both balancing (creating more diversity in play styles) as well as funneling (making sure you don't invest too muchin the wrong gear). In practice I'm sure fractals are doable in a part of all clerics and/or knight's but the community wouldn't have it I'm sure and so I feel like there's some definite improvements needed here.

    There is a big misconseption in gaming community on how META works. META stands for Most Effective Tactic Available. MOST is a key word, which means if for example devs nerf firebrand, something else will come in place. As @Infusion.7149 suggested: chrono+druid was meta before firebrigade was brought into game. Players always will experiment and find out what is the most effective way of doing stuff. And ofc devs know that very well.

    Apart from that, META in gw2 works well, but it is not required. I assume you are a new player and haven't tryed much playing a no heal comp in CM fractals. The comp that discretize suggests is actually very fun to play and is more challanging in some way than playing a less effective heal oriented comp. And actually what is interesting even in very high KP you rarely play with a full meta comp. There are tons heal firebrands in 15k-20k UFE range, weavers are also very rare lately, and even soulbeasts start lacking due to players slacking to swap after CM100, so we end up playing with DHs a lot. What stays most of the time are firebrand, renegade and berserker. Firebrands have 4 different builds to chose from, renegades can go heal too, and berserkers work too well with overlapped precision and banners to not take to, though it is totally ok to play without a warrior and replace it with a soulbeast. So the idea that "everyone plays META" is totally wrong, META in gw2 fractals is quite rare sadly, only firebrigade is omnipresent in one or a different form, and if it gets nerfed, your so called "toxic, evil" veteran community will suffer the least cause they know their stuff, and players that play t3s or hfb comps will quit fractals due to pressure. That is why you have encountered "lecutring" in tier 3s, normally t3 fractals is the point where fractals become a lil more challenging and players still learn playing, and not playing efficient comps doesn't help them. The Firebrigade comp is their best saviour.

    Lastly: fractals are a gold grind, we want to clear them fast: which means max dps min failure. 30g/h or 15g/h is a big difference. So expect fractals always being focused on speed.

    Edit p.s.: The reason why I am advocating for full DPS META comps personally is that it makes the game more fun. Playing with a healer and ignoring the all mechanics is lame and uninteresting. Yes it is kinda similar to DPS your way on skipping phases but in comparison to heal wealchair it is more fun as every individual player gets some pressure on their shoulders.

  • Shadowmoon.7986Shadowmoon.7986 Member ✭✭✭✭

    You are assuming there are fractal devs or devs who care about balance. Both 2019 and 2020 only had 1 fractal each, the last balance patch was over 6 month ago in July. Fractals at this point are just side projects, pve balance is nonexistent. Read the writing on the wall.

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Touchme.1097 said:
    I can't see how a full DPS team can survive an Underground Facility with Social Awkwardness, Fractal Vindicators and Sugar Rush, , those Dredges hit so hard today that I can't pug it in T4. I think the balance issue should address some of the instability+fractal scale combination that make the game too hard of a challenge

    The majority of damage is ranged. Bring reflects, don't face tank melee attacks, group and kill enemies. Use boon corrupt if necessary. Done.

    Underground facility is not a hard fractal no matter the instabilities.

  • Obtena.7952Obtena.7952 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 10, 2021

    @Firebeard.1746 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:
    That's not a problem in this game because even though the game is designed from the ground up with active damage avoidance and mitigation in mind, the threshold for success is so low and the options for gearing is so wide that it's not that critical for players to actively avoid and mitigate damage anyways.

    Except it's not that low, I know that's personal experience, etc.

    See, this is where you have to understand that what sets GW2 from it's peers is that relative to THOSE game, the threshold is low. That threshold isn't based on someone's personal experience. It's based on Anet's desire to provide people a game where they can play how they want with a wide range of performances ... and that is exactly what they have done. Most other games do NOT do this, or if they do, no where near the level that GW2 does.

    NO game maker could cater to every player's capability, so your perspective on what is 'low threshold' based on your experiences is wrong, not just for GW2 but for every game ever.

    ... and whether you PUG or not, the threshold doesn't change, just the attitude of the people you play with.

    Abuse from people that tell you how to play is not a reason to change a class in a game that is designed and works to allow you to play how you want.

  • mindcircus.1506mindcircus.1506 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @mindcircus.1506 said:
    At what point does the Guild Wars 2 community stop pointing at team compositions from a small Speed Running guild as something for Anet to base their balance around?

    They don't. Ideas like what we are seeing in this thread are baggage that people keep bringing with them from other games. That's why it's important for people to continue to argue that these kinds of threads aren't relevant to GW2 and explain why.

    This is not baggage from other games.
    This is a thread by someone dissatified that the Speedclear Meta isn't to his liking and coming on this forum and looking for the developers to address the playstyle of a small group of people that he clearly isn't part of.
    The OP has proven in other threads that he doesn't even understand what "meta" means.

    "We recognize that some players are not able to complete all content." Gaile Gray 01.10.19

  • Katary.7096Katary.7096 Member ✭✭✭

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:
    Oh I forgot about that. I thought they were referring to https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Ancient_Echo since the one you mentioned is used for heal renegade.

    Do people actually run heal renegade? I have not seen one of those in over a year. Heal firebrands seem to be everywhere though.