Primordus's real twin! Sudromip(Supromid? snqlowid?) — Guild Wars 2 Forums
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Primordus's real twin! Sudromip(Supromid? snqlowid?)

TeeracK.3601TeeracK.3601 Member ✭✭
edited February 23, 2021 in Lore

So I was thinking about the whole Primodus and Jormag are twins thing and I was considering how in my other theory about Lyssa recently I pointed out how jormag always lies, the more I keep thinking about it I think it makes more sense for it to be with Bubbles. The opposite of fire isn't usually ice its usually water. The new logo for EoD is a dragon underground(primordus) and a dragon coming out of the water(bubbles). They have been hinting and building to a Lyssa storyline. The DSD is the most mysterious dragon like Lyssa was in a lot of ways as a good, and water is reflective like a mirror at times. there isn't any real hard core proof or anything to tie it to Lyssa tho. Also just in terms of size we know DSD minions are meant to be really big so it's probably really big, and we saw primordus he was massive but jormag is tiny and doesnt even look like primodus.

My main point/theory here is that I think Jormag ISNT actually Primordus's twin. bubble's name is gonna start with s so I thought an upside down or mirrored version of primordus's name could work. the thought popped into my head as I was finishing up a DRM and Brann and taimi where chatting.

Taimi: Before, we had guesses; now we have knowledge. Jormag's been very forthcoming. Did you know the two dragons are twinned?
Braham Eirsson: JORMAG. LIES. That's their whole thing.

These two lines being right next to each other like this makes me feel like it was meant to be a hint that Jormag isn't actually the twin to primordus.

Comments

  • Touchme.1097Touchme.1097 Member ✭✭✭
    edited February 8, 2021

    If you are looking for a Goddess of lies that has to be Kormir, her lies started as soon as she became Goddess in GW1, she said that tyrians will never fight alone and in GW2 PoF Kormir now changes her mind saying that Gods cannot intervene leaving mortals to fight against a disgraced God. Kormir is the Goddess of lies indeed and Lyssa is just another villain queued up to be killed in the future.
    Jormag is a liar, I don't think he is really Primordus' twin but he is definitely the key to kill the fire dragon, the two powers annihilate each other.
    If you rearrange the word "Primordus" you can obtain the word Spirdumor which is one of the combinations that fits best as an elder Dragon's name for the water one.

  • Raknar.4735Raknar.4735 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 8, 2021

    Tom Abernathy, the studio narrative director, stated that Jormag doesn‘t lie. And since not lying is „part of their strength“, we can safely assume that Jormag is Primordus‘ twin (whatever that means in the context of EDs). Unless, of course, Jormag not lying has been retconned.

    Braham doesn‘t know better, so he calls Jormag a liar. But we as players know more than the ingame characters do in this case.

    You have a heart of gold. Don't let them take it from you.

  • Hannelore.8153Hannelore.8153 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 9, 2021

    Except that Jormag hasn't lied even once, persuasion is about telling the truth, just in ways that people want to hear. Leaving out key details, sugar-coating harmful details and other stuff that we see both Jormag and their champions do, but never lying.

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  • The Greyhawk.9107The Greyhawk.9107 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Hannelore.8153 said:
    Leaving out key details, sugar-coating harmful details and other stuff that we see both Jormag and their champions do, but never lying.

    Pretty sure that's called Lying by Omission.

    Hate Is Fuel.

  • Teratus.2859Teratus.2859 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 9, 2021

    The mark of a great liar is one that manipulates and lies using the truth.. that is what Jormag does, it doesn't outright lie to you.. it's very sly, perverts the truth and lies by omission and tactics like that so that it can always say things like.
    (Purely fan based dialogue not from the game)
    "I never lied to you, I told you the truth.. I just didn't tell you everything because I can't trust you.. not yet, because you're working against me, but I don't blame you.. I understand your fear and your doubt's but you must trust me, I am not your enemy and you will need my help."

    Lies with the truth.. justifies it's actions.. deflects the blame and calls your actions to question.. sympathises to your situation.. reassures.. and seduces.
    Jormag is a master at this kind of thing and it's what Jormag has been doing more or less for the entire IBS, trying to get us on it's side by making us think it's on our side.

    Also Jormag isn't small exactly, so far we've only seen it's head so there's not a large model to go by as of yet but I am still expecting Jormag to be about the length of Kralkatorriks Head and Tail maybe a bit of the neck too in total.
    That would make Jormag much bigger than Zhaitan's body but not as big as it's wingspan and much thicker than Mordremoth's body but not quite as long.
    If you want an example and comparison compared to other ED models I made this a while ago to show around about's what I expect Jormag's size to be using a mishmash of kralk parts as a stand in as I expect that better fits to the Lindwurm body type I am expecting Jormag to have.

    Also to note as well, Primordus will very very likely be shrunk down when he gets a full body model in Gw2, I do not expect his head from season 3 will define his full body model, it's just too big.. however I do believe he will be the biggest of the Dragons.

  • Tyson.5160Tyson.5160 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 9, 2021

    @Teratus.2859 said:
    The mark of a great liar is one that manipulates and lies using the truth.. that is what Jormag does, it doesn't outright lie to you.. it's very sly, perverts the truth and lies by omission and tactics like that so that it can always say things like.
    (Purely fan based dialogue not from the game)
    "I never lied to you, I told you the truth.. I just didn't tell you everything because I can't trust you.. not yet, because you're working against me, but I don't blame you.. I understand your fear and your doubt's but you must trust me, I am not your enemy and you will need my help."

    Lies with the truth.. justifies it's actions.. deflects the blame and calls your actions to question.. sympathises to your situation.. reassures.. and seduces.
    Jormag is a master at this kind of thing and it's what Jormag has been doing more or less for the entire IBS, trying to get us on it's side by making us think it's on our side.

    Also Jormag isn't small exactly, so far we've only seen it's head so there's not a large model to go by as of yet but I am still expecting Jormag to be about the length of Kralkatorriks Head and Tail maybe a bit of the neck too in total.
    That would make Jormag much bigger than Zhaitan's body but not as big as it's wingspan and much thicker than Mordremoth's body but not quite as long.
    If you want an example and comparison compared to other ED models I made this a while ago to show around about's what I expect Jormag's size to be using a mishmash of kralk parts as a stand in as I expect that better fits to the Lindwurm body type I am expecting Jormag to have.

    Also to note as well, Primordus will very very likely be shrunk down when he gets a full body model in Gw2, I do not expect his head from season 3 will define his full body model, it's just too big.. however I do believe he will be the biggest of the Dragons.

    That Shaman pulled the model and made a comparison of all the dragons. You can see Jormag’s size between Zhaitan and Mordremoth.

    https://mobile.twitter.com/that_shaman/status/1333405006213615619/photo/1

  • Ashantara.8731Ashantara.8731 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 9, 2021

    @Touchme.1097 said:
    If you are looking for a Goddess of lies that has to be Kormir, her lies started as soon as she became Goddess in GW1, she said that tyrians will never fight alone and in GW2 PoF Kormir now changes her mind saying that Gods cannot intervene leaving mortals to fight against a disgraced God.

    And she stated why: because it was a fight against a God, i.e. one of them. She explained in detail how that would lead to devastating destruction, which you can hardly classify as "help".

  • @TeeracK.3601 said:
    he opposite of fire isn't usually ice its usually water.

    Nah, it's usually ice because opposite of hot is cold.

    Besides, we see already that ice does effect destroyers most, and in the very first story instance of Episode 5: Champions, destroyers are coming out of the water.

    we saw primordus he was massive but jormag is tiny and doesnt even look like primodus.

    Fraternal twins is a thing.

    Taimi: Before, we had guesses; now we have knowledge. Jormag's been very forthcoming. Did you know the two dragons are twinned?
    Braham Eirsson: JORMAG. LIES. That's their whole thing.

    These two lines being right next to each other like this makes me feel like it was meant to be a hint that Jormag isn't actually the twin to primordus.

    As others pointed out, despite Braham's statement here, Jormag is canonically only a liar through omission - which is to say that Jormag technically doesn't lie. So when Jormag says they're Primordus' twin, then that's truth. Or at least, truth from Jormag's perspective.

    Same with how Jormag calls Aurene "sister". They're not actually siblings, but Jormag sees them as such - probably because they're both Elder Dragons. In Primordus' case, Jormag likely calls it their twin because of the relation between powers.

    @Tyson.5160 said:

    @Teratus.2859 said:
    Also Jormag isn't small exactly, so far we've only seen it's head so there's not a large model to go by as of yet but I am still expecting Jormag to be about the length of Kralkatorriks Head and Tail maybe a bit of the neck too in total.
    That would make Jormag much bigger than Zhaitan's body but not as big as it's wingspan and much thicker than Mordremoth's body but not quite as long.
    If you want an example and comparison compared to other ED models I made this a while ago to show around about's what I expect Jormag's size to be using a mishmash of kralk parts as a stand in as I expect that better fits to the Lindwurm body type I am expecting Jormag to have.

    Also to note as well, Primordus will very very likely be shrunk down when he gets a full body model in Gw2, I do not expect his head from season 3 will define his full body model, it's just too big.. however I do believe he will be the biggest of the Dragons.

    That Shaman pulled the model and made a comparison of all the dragons. You can see Jormag’s size between Zhaitan and Mordremoth.

    https://mobile.twitter.com/that_shaman/status/1333405006213615619/photo/1

    It should be noted that the model That_Shaman pulled is incomplete still (obviously; only head, neck, and forearms done). But overall, it seems that Jormag's size is roughly on par to Zhaitan's original size (what is inbetween Kralk and Zhaitan in the first image).

    However, it should also be noted that Kralkatorrik technically has three sizes for his non-"storm form" appearance (storm form appearance being what we see in PoF finale and S4E4, which is very Shatterer-like and much, much bigger) - and the one included in the above image is the size from Dragonfall map, whereas the largest version of Kralkatorrik is from All or Nothing's The Crystal Dragon.

    I am not sure which model of Kralk That_Shaman used in his comparison, but it looks like it's just head/neck, which would be All or Nothing's model.

    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.

  • @Tyson.5160 said:

    @Teratus.2859 said:
    The mark of a great liar is one that manipulates and lies using the truth.. that is what Jormag does, it doesn't outright lie to you.. it's very sly, perverts the truth and lies by omission and tactics like that so that it can always say things like.
    (Purely fan based dialogue not from the game)
    "I never lied to you, I told you the truth.. I just didn't tell you everything because I can't trust you.. not yet, because you're working against me, but I don't blame you.. I understand your fear and your doubt's but you must trust me, I am not your enemy and you will need my help."

    Lies with the truth.. justifies it's actions.. deflects the blame and calls your actions to question.. sympathises to your situation.. reassures.. and seduces.
    Jormag is a master at this kind of thing and it's what Jormag has been doing more or less for the entire IBS, trying to get us on it's side by making us think it's on our side.

    Also Jormag isn't small exactly, so far we've only seen it's head so there's not a large model to go by as of yet but I am still expecting Jormag to be about the length of Kralkatorriks Head and Tail maybe a bit of the neck too in total.
    That would make Jormag much bigger than Zhaitan's body but not as big as it's wingspan and much thicker than Mordremoth's body but not quite as long.
    If you want an example and comparison compared to other ED models I made this a while ago to show around about's what I expect Jormag's size to be using a mishmash of kralk parts as a stand in as I expect that better fits to the Lindwurm body type I am expecting Jormag to have.

    Also to note as well, Primordus will very very likely be shrunk down when he gets a full body model in Gw2, I do not expect his head from season 3 will define his full body model, it's just too big.. however I do believe he will be the biggest of the Dragons.

    That Shaman pulled the model and made a comparison of all the dragons. You can see Jormag’s size between Zhaitan and Mordremoth.

    https://mobile.twitter.com/that_shaman/status/1333405006213615619/photo/1

    Off topic, but by the Six, Zhaitan is tiny... Then one remembers he was still able to raise Orr from the ocean floor. How'd we kill him again?

  • Teratus.2859Teratus.2859 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 9, 2021

    @Tyson.5160 said:

    @Teratus.2859 said:
    The mark of a great liar is one that manipulates and lies using the truth.. that is what Jormag does, it doesn't outright lie to you.. it's very sly, perverts the truth and lies by omission and tactics like that so that it can always say things like.
    (Purely fan based dialogue not from the game)
    "I never lied to you, I told you the truth.. I just didn't tell you everything because I can't trust you.. not yet, because you're working against me, but I don't blame you.. I understand your fear and your doubt's but you must trust me, I am not your enemy and you will need my help."

    Lies with the truth.. justifies it's actions.. deflects the blame and calls your actions to question.. sympathises to your situation.. reassures.. and seduces.
    Jormag is a master at this kind of thing and it's what Jormag has been doing more or less for the entire IBS, trying to get us on it's side by making us think it's on our side.

    Also Jormag isn't small exactly, so far we've only seen it's head so there's not a large model to go by as of yet but I am still expecting Jormag to be about the length of Kralkatorriks Head and Tail maybe a bit of the neck too in total.
    That would make Jormag much bigger than Zhaitan's body but not as big as it's wingspan and much thicker than Mordremoth's body but not quite as long.
    If you want an example and comparison compared to other ED models I made this a while ago to show around about's what I expect Jormag's size to be using a mishmash of kralk parts as a stand in as I expect that better fits to the Lindwurm body type I am expecting Jormag to have.

    Also to note as well, Primordus will very very likely be shrunk down when he gets a full body model in Gw2, I do not expect his head from season 3 will define his full body model, it's just too big.. however I do believe he will be the biggest of the Dragons.

    That Shaman pulled the model and made a comparison of all the dragons. You can see Jormag’s size between Zhaitan and Mordremoth.

    https://mobile.twitter.com/that_shaman/status/1333405006213615619/photo/1

    As Konig pointed out the different models does tend to change the size of the dragon between appearances, This is also why I said I expect Primordus size to be heavily reduced once we see a complete model of it in game.

    The main indicator of Jormag and Primordus sizes is the lore about a previous conflict they had in the last dragonrise.
    Primordus physically struck Jormag in the side during the last dragonrise which is why shards of Jormag's blood can be found all over Drizzlewood coast.

    If the current model chart that Shaman made is accurate to their size then Primordus would be big enough to eat Zhaitan and Jormag which would just be absurd lol
    A clash between Jormag and Primordus would be more akin to the fight between Glint and Kralkatorrik.. or Teen Aurine and Kralkatorrik as we saw in Season 4.
    Jormag would be at even more of a disadvantage too since as far as we know/suspect right now Jormag likely has a Lindwurm design and has no wings and cannot fly to avoid attacks like Aurine was able to.

    To me this does strongly suggest that Jormag and Primordus are somewhat closer in size to one another which Jormag would need to be to take a big hit from Primordus like it did in the last Dragonrise, if Primordus was too much bigger it wouldn't make much sense.
    But we only have the Season 3 Primordus model to work with atm.. but once we see a full model of him in game im sure we'll get a better indicator of his size, my guess since Primordus and Jormag are twins is that Primordus also has a Lindwurm design or Crocodile like design and is a little bigger than Kralkatorrik's body/head/tail but not as big as his wingspan while Jormag is smaller and more in line to the size of the stand in I made.
    But I could be way off, we'll just have to wait and see once both Dragons have complete models.

  • Randulf.7614Randulf.7614 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Maybe he'll be even bigger and surprise Jormag with his new size and power as he smashes up out of the ground

    *note - I don't actually believe this will happen. I doubt the game could handle something of that scale

    What sleep is here? What dreams there are in the unctuous coiling of the snakes mortal shuffling. weapon in my hand. My hand the arcing deathblow at the end of all things. The horror. The horror. I embrace it. . .

  • The narrative surrounding Jormag continues to upset me for a number of reasons.

    I mean, not least of which being the liar sees liars everywhere. This is a commonly understood truth in psychology and why sometimes I still feel like Guild Wars 2 is a bit of a social experiment. The way one sees the Elder Dragons is telling—because for all we know they could all be innocent. Even Primordus—being Jormag's abusive partner, to the point where Jormag can only see an escape from the abusive cycle by ending him—may be taken by the Torment.

    Jormag however, in particular, is as fascinating as they depressing in how they're viewed by the community. I've explained at length that often people are groomed to see very neurodiverse traits as dark triad ones. This is something that many an expert in the field of psychology has tried to undo but it's difficult because there's so much misleading misinformation out there. 9 out of ten listicles will actually couple neurodiverse traits with titles like "How to spot a sociopath."

    I mean, even stimming.

    I've said already that I see Jormag as an incredibly traumatised person—they show all the hallmarks of it, being defensive, having difficulty talking about trauma, deflecting—because yes, traumatised people can do this without being manipulative, it's not the same as projecting, which is something else entirely. They're also as jaded as heck as they believe that Tyria's actual manipulators will always succeessfully paint them as utterly evil, despite their powers of persuasion.

    On top of this, the desire to paint Jormag in a negative light has lead to a case of "I know better than the developers do." Narrative lead Tom Abernathy has not only said that Jormag doesn't lie—as was mentioned—but also that Jormag cannot manipulate. They've mentioned as well that Jormag truly does love Tyria.

    None of this tracks with the perspective of a destructive manipulator. As someone who's had to deal with dark triad persons before—narcissists and sociopaths—I'm all too familiar with their tactics and I can tell you that Jormag doesn't match them at all. You can find any number of articles on the behaviours of dark triad bad actors on sites like Psychology Today to better understand what they're like. The simple fact of the matter is is that the reason that neurodiverse people are often painted as dark triad is grooming, it's because it makes life easier for actual dark triad personalities if they can "educate" their followers into seeing evil elsewhere. It's grooming. Furthermore, dark triad personalities are masterful chameleons, you wouldn't see them.

    You have to be trained to be able to spot dark triad bad actors—you actually have to have psychology training to be able to do this, it's something that you have to really devote time and energy to learning. It's not easy to see through their act. In fact, most dark triad bad actors seem like good friends, nice, and helpful right up until you find yourself in their sights—or until they snap. Look into Ted Bundy as one example.

    The media perception of the lone wolf killer isn't very scientific—in the vast majority of cases, those with ill intent can mask perfectly as an ordinary, everyday extrovert. And unless you've been trained to spot them, you wouldn't know any better.

    Jormag's obviously strange behaviour is that of a neurodiverse (plural), traumatised, jaded as heck person who's just very tired. They're just a little bit sarcastic because they are just that tired of people being played—they see it happening all the time. They watch as dark triad bad actors like Bangar Ruinbringer the racial supremacist or the Spirits of the Wild who—I will state this until I'm blue in the face—eat children.

    That's what you're seeing. If Jormag was really a fantastic manipulator? You wouldn't see it coming. They'd be as nice, friendly, and personable as Aurene. If you can perceive them as being strange? You haven't "cleverly found a sociopath." I'm sorry.

    Now, I can just hear some saying that it might be bad writing—that Jormag is a vile manipulator, just the usual media portrayal thereof. I don't think so. I don't think so at all. Thus far, the writing team have been pretty on point with depicting neurodiverse states, including the pathos that some people can endure. There are some in the community who've picked up on this, with certain characters representing autism and the like. Gorrik, for one, very clearly. Another example is Kralkatorrik, whose Torment was almost certainly a depiction of invasive thoughts. As a person who's struggled through most of their life with those, it was a poignant experience.

    I do find it upsetting because by painting Jormag as a manipulator? It's no different than those listicles. It's as if that tainted "knowledge" has sunk so far into the consensus that any form of neurodiversity is going to be seen as dark triad and there's next to nothing we can even do about it anymore. It's tiring! I'll tell you that. Allow me a moment of bitter hyperbole where I wonder if Gorrik were to ever stim, there'd be tens of threads about how he's a sociopath? It's all too likely.

    What's most depressing is that no one is willing to consider that what they see in Jormag might not be what they've been trained to think it is—the lack of introspection is really disheartening. As I said, if Jormag's just an evil, sociopathic manpulator then what hope do any of us have? Yes, Jormag is persuasive, but it isn't in a manipulative way. It's in more of a begging, pleading, "Please listen to me" kind of way. It's always been that way.

    I've brought up other factors as well that are contrary to dark triad personalities. First of all is that they have no patience—Jormag has shown plenty. Secondly, they're incredibly greedy and they rarely turn to any form of generosity to try to convince people of their good intent, they use their charisma for that instead much as Bangar did. Thirdly, they have no chill, if they can't get their way then they try to break you down—Jormag has continued to do the opposite in building up Aurene's self-esteem. I mean, with that latter point, I could still be wrong and we're about to see Jormag beat Aurene into the ground but given all the other evidence? I doubt it. It doesn't fit their psychological profile.

    Jormag is as much of a "manipulator" as any abused and highly traumatised person I've seen. The really frustrating, vexing thing that gets me so passionate is guess what I've also seen? Due to the strange behaviours of traumatised people—and please research this, look into anxiety attacks, panic attacks, protection mechanisms, and the like—I've seen more normative minds throw that claim at them. I don't think it's the case.

    I stand by my initial assertion of dragons of pathos. Kralkatorrik had invasive thoughts and anxiety, Aurene inherited his anxiety and crippling fear, Jormag is heavily traumatised and distrustful due to abuse and being separated from those who could help them, Primordus has anger management problems which have lead to him being abusive. It's how I think they are. I think all of these dragons are tormented even if they aren't all specifically struck by the Torment.

    I suspect this will fall on deaf ears—and I may even get in trouble for talking about it—but this is a topic that really matters to me. All too often I've seen neurodiverse people fall prey to this. No, I'm sorry, if you think you can spot a dark triad person without the prerequisite training? You're being excessively egotistical. And yes, I do think that ArenaNet has the writing chops and psychology knowhow to pull off dragons who've got non-normative minds to illustrate the difference between that and dark triad persons.

    This kind of thinking is exactly why neurodiverse persons get targeted in the real world for abuse, whereas actual manipulators and abusers get away scot free.

    I will point out one last time that Tom Abernathy himself claimed that they aren't a manipulator. I would just ask why you think he'd say that? He isn't going to lie about it either. There's a reason for it. There's something ArenaNet is up to here and if I'm right—which I hope I am—then I deeply appreciate it.

  • @Diak Atoli.2085 said:

    @Tyson.5160 said:

    @Teratus.2859 said:
    The mark of a great liar is one that manipulates and lies using the truth.. that is what Jormag does, it doesn't outright lie to you.. it's very sly, perverts the truth and lies by omission and tactics like that so that it can always say things like.
    (Purely fan based dialogue not from the game)
    "I never lied to you, I told you the truth.. I just didn't tell you everything because I can't trust you.. not yet, because you're working against me, but I don't blame you.. I understand your fear and your doubt's but you must trust me, I am not your enemy and you will need my help."

    Lies with the truth.. justifies it's actions.. deflects the blame and calls your actions to question.. sympathises to your situation.. reassures.. and seduces.
    Jormag is a master at this kind of thing and it's what Jormag has been doing more or less for the entire IBS, trying to get us on it's side by making us think it's on our side.

    Also Jormag isn't small exactly, so far we've only seen it's head so there's not a large model to go by as of yet but I am still expecting Jormag to be about the length of Kralkatorriks Head and Tail maybe a bit of the neck too in total.
    That would make Jormag much bigger than Zhaitan's body but not as big as it's wingspan and much thicker than Mordremoth's body but not quite as long.
    If you want an example and comparison compared to other ED models I made this a while ago to show around about's what I expect Jormag's size to be using a mishmash of kralk parts as a stand in as I expect that better fits to the Lindwurm body type I am expecting Jormag to have.

    Also to note as well, Primordus will very very likely be shrunk down when he gets a full body model in Gw2, I do not expect his head from season 3 will define his full body model, it's just too big.. however I do believe he will be the biggest of the Dragons.

    That Shaman pulled the model and made a comparison of all the dragons. You can see Jormag’s size between Zhaitan and Mordremoth.

    https://mobile.twitter.com/that_shaman/status/1333405006213615619/photo/1

    Off topic, but by the Six, Zhaitan is tiny... Then one remembers he was still able to raise Orr from the ocean floor. How'd we kill him again?

    Keep in mind that model of Zhaitan was shrunk from the original intended size (see the model between Zhaitan and Kralkatorrik here: https://imgur.com/cyfT5Vg.jpg) due to the complexity of the model's animations, and the game's engine being unable to handle such on large scale at the time. To compensate, ArenaNet used perspective to make Zhaitan look much bigger in-game. So this model comparison is not 100% accurate to lore, even when excluding the fact Kralkatorrik has three sizes.

    Also keep in mind that by the time we do fight Zhaitan, he was deprived of magic of the five temples and The Artesian Waters, which if Elder Dragons function the same as dragon minions, would result in Zhaitan becoming smaller (this can even be used to explain why Kralkatorrik shrinks between The Crystal Dragon instance and The End instance, after a big battle of expending magic, but then grows within Dragonfall where he's chomping off a bunch of ley line magic).

    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.

  • ugrakarma.9416ugrakarma.9416 Member ✭✭✭✭

    a bit offtopic, we notice a increased references to familiar relationship the Kralkatorrik "mother" thing, and now jormag talking about being "twin" with primordus.

    main pvp: Khel the Undead(power reaper).

  • Touchme.1097Touchme.1097 Member ✭✭✭
    edited February 18, 2021

    @Hypnowulf.7403 said:
    The narrative surrounding Jormag continues to upset me for a number of reasons.

    I mean, not least of which being the liar sees liars everywhere. This is a commonly understood truth in psychology and why sometimes I still feel like Guild Wars 2 is a bit of a social experiment. The way one sees the Elder Dragons is telling—because for all we know they could all be innocent. Even Primordus—being Jormag's abusive partner, to the point where Jormag can only see an escape from the abusive cycle by ending him—may be taken by the Torment.

    Jormag however, in particular, is as fascinating as they depressing in how they're viewed by the community. I've explained at length that often people are groomed to see very neurodiverse traits as dark triad ones. This is something that many an expert in the field of psychology has tried to undo but it's difficult because there's so much misleading misinformation out there. 9 out of ten listicles will actually couple neurodiverse traits with titles like "How to spot a sociopath."

    I mean, even stimming.

    I've said already that I see Jormag as an incredibly traumatised person—they show all the hallmarks of it, being defensive, having difficulty talking about trauma, deflecting—because yes, traumatised people can do this without being manipulative, it's not the same as projecting, which is something else entirely. They're also as jaded as heck as they believe that Tyria's actual manipulators will always succeessfully paint them as utterly evil, despite their powers of persuasion.

    On top of this, the desire to paint Jormag in a negative light has lead to a case of "I know better than the developers do." Narrative lead Tom Abernathy has not only said that Jormag doesn't lie—as was mentioned—but also that Jormag cannot manipulate. They've mentioned as well that Jormag truly does love Tyria.

    None of this tracks with the perspective of a destructive manipulator. As someone who's had to deal with dark triad persons before—narcissists and sociopaths—I'm all too familiar with their tactics and I can tell you that Jormag doesn't match them at all. You can find any number of articles on the behaviours of dark triad bad actors on sites like Psychology Today to better understand what they're like. The simple fact of the matter is is that the reason that neurodiverse people are often painted as dark triad is grooming, it's because it makes life easier for actual dark triad personalities if they can "educate" their followers into seeing evil elsewhere. It's grooming. Furthermore, dark triad personalities are masterful chameleons, you wouldn't see them.

    You have to be trained to be able to spot dark triad bad actors—you actually have to have psychology training to be able to do this, it's something that you have to really devote time and energy to learning. It's not easy to see through their act. In fact, most dark triad bad actors seem like good friends, nice, and helpful right up until you find yourself in their sights—or until they snap. Look into Ted Bundy as one example.

    The media perception of the lone wolf killer isn't very scientific—in the vast majority of cases, those with ill intent can mask perfectly as an ordinary, everyday extrovert. And unless you've been trained to spot them, you wouldn't know any better.

    Jormag's obviously strange behaviour is that of a neurodiverse (plural), traumatised, jaded as heck person who's just very tired. They're just a little bit sarcastic because they are just that tired of people being played—they see it happening all the time. They watch as dark triad bad actors like Bangar Ruinbringer the racial supremacist or the Spirits of the Wild who—I will state this until I'm blue in the face—eat children.

    That's what you're seeing. If Jormag was really a fantastic manipulator? You wouldn't see it coming. They'd be as nice, friendly, and personable as Aurene. If you can perceive them as being strange? You haven't "cleverly found a sociopath." I'm sorry.

    Now, I can just hear some saying that it might be bad writing—that Jormag is a vile manipulator, just the usual media portrayal thereof. I don't think so. I don't think so at all. Thus far, the writing team have been pretty on point with depicting neurodiverse states, including the pathos that some people can endure. There are some in the community who've picked up on this, with certain characters representing autism and the like. Gorrik, for one, very clearly. Another example is Kralkatorrik, whose Torment was almost certainly a depiction of invasive thoughts. As a person who's struggled through most of their life with those, it was a poignant experience.

    I do find it upsetting because by painting Jormag as a manipulator? It's no different than those listicles. It's as if that tainted "knowledge" has sunk so far into the consensus that any form of neurodiversity is going to be seen as dark triad and there's next to nothing we can even do about it anymore. It's tiring! I'll tell you that. Allow me a moment of bitter hyperbole where I wonder if Gorrik were to ever stim, there'd be tens of threads about how he's a sociopath? It's all too likely.

    What's most depressing is that no one is willing to consider that what they see in Jormag might not be what they've been trained to think it is—the lack of introspection is really disheartening. As I said, if Jormag's just an evil, sociopathic manpulator then what hope do any of us have? Yes, Jormag is persuasive, but it isn't in a manipulative way. It's in more of a begging, pleading, "Please listen to me" kind of way. It's always been that way.

    I've brought up other factors as well that are contrary to dark triad personalities. First of all is that they have no patience—Jormag has shown plenty. Secondly, they're incredibly greedy and they rarely turn to any form of generosity to try to convince people of their good intent, they use their charisma for that instead much as Bangar did. Thirdly, they have no chill, if they can't get their way then they try to break you down—Jormag has continued to do the opposite in building up Aurene's self-esteem. I mean, with that latter point, I could still be wrong and we're about to see Jormag beat Aurene into the ground but given all the other evidence? I doubt it. It doesn't fit their psychological profile.

    Jormag is as much of a "manipulator" as any abused and highly traumatised person I've seen. The really frustrating, vexing thing that gets me so passionate is guess what I've also seen? Due to the strange behaviours of traumatised people—and please research this, look into anxiety attacks, panic attacks, protection mechanisms, and the like—I've seen more normative minds throw that claim at them. I don't think it's the case.

    I stand by my initial assertion of dragons of pathos. Kralkatorrik had invasive thoughts and anxiety, Aurene inherited his anxiety and crippling fear, Jormag is heavily traumatised and distrustful due to abuse and being separated from those who could help them, Primordus has anger management problems which have lead to him being abusive. It's how I think they are. I think all of these dragons are tormented even if they aren't all specifically struck by the Torment.

    I suspect this will fall on deaf ears—and I may even get in trouble for talking about it—but this is a topic that really matters to me. All too often I've seen neurodiverse people fall prey to this. No, I'm sorry, if you think you can spot a dark triad person without the prerequisite training? You're being excessively egotistical. And yes, I do think that ArenaNet has the writing chops and psychology knowhow to pull off dragons who've got non-normative minds to illustrate the difference between that and dark triad persons.

    This kind of thinking is exactly why neurodiverse persons get targeted in the real world for abuse, whereas actual manipulators and abusers get away scot free.

    I will point out one last time that Tom Abernathy himself claimed that they aren't a manipulator. I would just ask why you think he'd say that? He isn't going to lie about it either. There's a reason for it. There's something ArenaNet is up to here and if I'm right—which I hope I am—then I deeply appreciate it.

    Don't worry, I loved your analysis and I actually want to see more of these posts because they are interesting, certainly more interesting than the opinion of someone who makes gut choices. I think Jormag is not all that innocent and certainly not the victim, he feeds on the spirits of the wild corrupting them and he brands his minions driving them against other mortals, all this just for the sake of this insatiable hunger for magic that characterizes the Elder Dragons corrupted by torment. Aurene is free from torment, at the moment, but this doesn't imply she couldn't be in the future. Jormag is like a drug addict who is willling to do everything to feed on its drug, it doesn't care about the life of mortals, he cares only about feeding on magic. This trait makes Jormag dangerous for every mortal and for Jormag itself and the only ways to deal with a rabid dog is to put an end to its miserable life unless there is a way to purify Elder Dragons from torment.