Raid replayability - why not? — Guild Wars 2 Forums
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Raid replayability - why not?

hello everyone,
i dont think needs needs a lenghtly explanation.
I clear raids more than one time per week as it is a content i am striving to improve at.
The rewards are meaningless after the first weekly clear. to my knowledge it's the end content with less replayability. Is there a reason why? wouldnt it be a good change to introduce some way to make the content replayable?
some drops you could still get when repeating (portals, chairs etc...)?
some gold per encounter?
a way to reset weekly clears so you could do them all twice?
Best regards,
Akir

Comments

  • sokeenoppa.5384sokeenoppa.5384 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 8, 2021

    @Akir.9312 said:
    hello everyone,
    i dont think needs needs a lenghtly explanation.
    I clear raids more than one time per week as it is a content i am striving to improve at.
    The rewards are meaningless after the first weekly clear. to my knowledge it's the end content with less replayability. Is there a reason why? wouldnt it be a good change to introduce some way to make the content replayable?
    some drops you could still get when repeating (portals, chairs etc...)?
    some gold per encounter?
    a way to reset weekly clears so you could do them all twice?
    Best regards,
    Akir

    Raid rewards are already pretty bad, a bit more than 100 gold from FC once/week if you sell your loot. However if we could repeat them as much as we want, that would change into 100 gold/4 hour for casual players like myself. Imo that would be bit too much.

    However what you think about daily reset? Everything else would be daily other than LIs, LIs would still have their weekly cap.
    That would be ~700 gold/week IF player would do full clear every day. Imo that sounds kinda balanced when compared to other gold farming methods. It would also perhaps make raids less dead content.

    Edit: just correct me if i said stupid about the gold from FC, i really dont remember anymore how much it is 😅

    If above sounds awful, perhaps give as a random daily raid wing to clear. I would be happy with that even.

    I'll have two number 9s, a number 9 large, a number 6 with extra dip, a number 7, two number 45s, one with cheese, and a large soda.

  • Akir.9312Akir.9312 Member ✭✭

    well to me your idea sounds great! let's see some non-raid players speak their mind, i am probbaly biased

  • @Akir.9312 said:
    hello everyone,
    i dont think needs needs a lenghtly explanation.
    I clear raids more than one time per week as it is a content i am striving to improve at.
    The rewards are meaningless after the first weekly clear. to my knowledge it's the end content with less replayability. Is there a reason why? wouldnt it be a good change to introduce some way to make the content replayable?
    some drops you could still get when repeating (portals, chairs etc...)?
    some gold per encounter?
    a way to reset weekly clears so you could do them all twice?
    Best regards,
    Akir

    I think that would be an awsome idea, as my self as a casual palyer, i priety much clear all my raids monday and stay with nothing much more to do, as raids are the most important content for me atm, i can accualy have fun doing raids, but there's this catch that is not worth doing it more then once a week...

  • Cynz.9437Cynz.9437 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I don't think it is bad idea however, as posted before, with daily reset and only applies to some drops/ (reduced?) gold so we don't have LI/KPs inflation - that would make it impossible for newer players to ever get into raids.

    Meh~

  • Akir.9312Akir.9312 Member ✭✭

    @Cynz.9437 said:
    I don't think it is bad idea however, as posted before, with daily reset and only applies to some drops/ (reduced?) gold so we don't have LI/KPs inflation - that would make it impossible for newer players to ever get into raids.

    Li problem is not solvable. Anet and community have opposite views on this subject so you will never find a solution to the problem. if you adress the LI/KP aquire rate you will get the "KPs arent the objectrive, every1 should be welcome" response. if you try to erase KP requirements from the community you end up with "how can you distinguish between skilled and non skilled player and avoid time waste".
    Given that, i only aim to make raids repeatable for all the players that clear them more than once per week like me

  • KP, LI/DL and should be once per week, but other rewards (Gold, Shards/Crystals, exotic items and chance for Asc item) — daily. It's still low income compared to specific OW farms or FoTM, but I would probably do raids more, because I actually enjoy raids.

    @sokeenoppa.5384 said:
    That would be ~700 gold/week IF player would do full clear every day. Imo that sounds kinda balanced when compared to other gold farming methods. It would also perhaps make raids less dead content.

    Edit: just correct me if i said stupid about the gold from FC, i really dont remember anymore how much it is 😅

    It's 25 encounters (rewarded):
    W1: VG, Pre-Gorse, Gorseval, Sabetha
    W2: Sloth, Trio, Matthias
    W3: Escort, KC, Twisted Castle, Xera
    W4: Cairn, MO, Samarog, Deimos
    W5: SH, River, Statues, Dhumm
    W6: CA, Largos, Qadim
    W7: Sabir, Adina, Qadim 2.0
    Total: 25, so 50g + additional bonus [doubled rewards from 2 random wings] = 62-66g.

    Master of garbage builds and being useless.

  • mindcircus.1506mindcircus.1506 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @sokeenoppa.5384 said:
    Raid rewards are already pretty bad, a bit more than 100 gold from FC once/week if you sell your loot. However if we could repeat them as much as we want, that would change into 100 gold/4 hour for casual players like myself. Imo that would be bit too much.

    100g/4 hours is in line with the return from time spent in Drizzlewood and Dragonfall.
    Why is this number "too much" for players that are completing content that is objectively harder open world zerging?

    "We recognize that some players are not able to complete all content." Gaile Gray 01.10.19

  • Akir.9312Akir.9312 Member ✭✭

    @mindcircus.1506 said:

    @sokeenoppa.5384 said:
    Raid rewards are already pretty bad, a bit more than 100 gold from FC once/week if you sell your loot. However if we could repeat them as much as we want, that would change into 100 gold/4 hour for casual players like myself. Imo that would be bit too much.

    100g/4 hours is in line with the return from time spent in Drizzlewood and Dragonfall.
    Why is this number "too much" for players that are completing content that is objectively harder open world zerging?

    I agree with that. just trying to understand why are raids such a low income content.

  • sokeenoppa.5384sokeenoppa.5384 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 8, 2021

    @Antycypator.9874 said:
    KP, LI/DL and should be once per week, but other rewards (Gold, Shards/Crystals, exotic items and chance for Asc item) — daily. It's still low income compared to specific OW farms or FoTM, but I would probably do raids more, because I actually enjoy raids.

    @sokeenoppa.5384 said:
    That would be ~700 gold/week IF player would do full clear every day. Imo that sounds kinda balanced when compared to other gold farming methods. It would also perhaps make raids less dead content.

    Edit: just correct me if i said stupid about the gold from FC, i really dont remember anymore how much it is 😅

    It's 25 encounters (rewarded):
    W1: VG, Pre-Gorse, Gorseval, Sabetha
    W2: Sloth, Trio, Matthias
    W3: Escort, KC, Twisted Castle, Xera
    W4: Cairn, MO, Samarog, Deimos
    W5: SH, River, Statues, Dhumm
    W6: CA, Largos, Qadim
    W7: Sabir, Adina, Qadim 2.0
    Total: 25, so 50g + additional bonus [doubled rewards from 2 random wings] = 62-66g.

    I counted the exotics and other loot in that aswell. They add up fast. It is after all one Guaranteed exotic and some yellow uni gear if im not mistaken. But still 100 was a bit of an overkill. 80-90 depending about rng sounds more correct.

    I'll have two number 9s, a number 9 large, a number 6 with extra dip, a number 7, two number 45s, one with cheese, and a large soda.

  • mindcircus.1506mindcircus.1506 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Akir.9312 said:

    @mindcircus.1506 said:

    @sokeenoppa.5384 said:
    Raid rewards are already pretty bad, a bit more than 100 gold from FC once/week if you sell your loot. However if we could repeat them as much as we want, that would change into 100 gold/4 hour for casual players like myself. Imo that would be bit too much.

    100g/4 hours is in line with the return from time spent in Drizzlewood and Dragonfall.
    Why is this number "too much" for players that are completing content that is objectively harder open world zerging?

    I agree with that. just trying to understand why are raids such a low income content.

    We just agreed that they offer competitive rewards with the best OW farms in the game.
    And you want to call them "low income"...
    This is why the developers cannot take this forum's feedback seriously

    "We recognize that some players are not able to complete all content." Gaile Gray 01.10.19

  • sokeenoppa.5384sokeenoppa.5384 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @mindcircus.1506 said:

    @sokeenoppa.5384 said:
    Raid rewards are already pretty bad, a bit more than 100 gold from FC once/week if you sell your loot. However if we could repeat them as much as we want, that would change into 100 gold/4 hour for casual players like myself. Imo that would be bit too much.

    100g/4 hours is in line with the return from time spent in Drizzlewood and Dragonfall.
    Why is this number "too much" for players that are completing content that is objectively harder open world zerging?

    If its up to me raids would be hands down the most rewarding content. I tried keep the it a bit lower just because 🤷‍♂️.

    I'll have two number 9s, a number 9 large, a number 6 with extra dip, a number 7, two number 45s, one with cheese, and a large soda.

  • Akir.9312Akir.9312 Member ✭✭

    @mindcircus.1506 said:

    @Akir.9312 said:

    @mindcircus.1506 said:

    @sokeenoppa.5384 said:
    Raid rewards are already pretty bad, a bit more than 100 gold from FC once/week if you sell your loot. However if we could repeat them as much as we want, that would change into 100 gold/4 hour for casual players like myself. Imo that would be bit too much.

    100g/4 hours is in line with the return from time spent in Drizzlewood and Dragonfall.
    Why is this number "too much" for players that are completing content that is objectively harder open world zerging?

    I agree with that. just trying to understand why are raids such a low income content.

    We just agreed that they offer competitive rewards with the best OW farms in the game.
    And you want to call them "low income"...
    This is why the developers cannot take this forum's feedback seriously

    so let me get this straight, you are able to get as muich money from raids as you can from OW farm on a weekly bases? is this your thesis?

  • sokeenoppa.5384sokeenoppa.5384 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Akir.9312 said:

    @mindcircus.1506 said:

    @Akir.9312 said:

    @mindcircus.1506 said:

    @sokeenoppa.5384 said:
    Raid rewards are already pretty bad, a bit more than 100 gold from FC once/week if you sell your loot. However if we could repeat them as much as we want, that would change into 100 gold/4 hour for casual players like myself. Imo that would be bit too much.

    100g/4 hours is in line with the return from time spent in Drizzlewood and Dragonfall.
    Why is this number "too much" for players that are completing content that is objectively harder open world zerging?

    I agree with that. just trying to understand why are raids such a low income content.

    We just agreed that they offer competitive rewards with the best OW farms in the game.
    And you want to call them "low income"...
    This is why the developers cannot take this forum's feedback seriously

    so let me get this straight, you are able to get as muich money from raids as you can from OW farm on a weekly bases? is this your thesis?

    Raids gives you bit less than 100 gold/week while open world in theory can give atleast 3360 if you would spend every hour of week farming 😅

    Infact we should say that raids gives you 100gold/168 hour 😅

    I'll have two number 9s, a number 9 large, a number 6 with extra dip, a number 7, two number 45s, one with cheese, and a large soda.

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 8, 2021

    @sokeenoppa.5384 said:

    @Antycypator.9874 said:
    KP, LI/DL and should be once per week, but other rewards (Gold, Shards/Crystals, exotic items and chance for Asc item) — daily. It's still low income compared to specific OW farms or FoTM, but I would probably do raids more, because I actually enjoy raids.

    @sokeenoppa.5384 said:
    That would be ~700 gold/week IF player would do full clear every day. Imo that sounds kinda balanced when compared to other gold farming methods. It would also perhaps make raids less dead content.

    Edit: just correct me if i said stupid about the gold from FC, i really dont remember anymore how much it is 😅

    It's 25 encounters (rewarded):
    W1: VG, Pre-Gorse, Gorseval, Sabetha
    W2: Sloth, Trio, Matthias
    W3: Escort, KC, Twisted Castle, Xera
    W4: Cairn, MO, Samarog, Deimos
    W5: SH, River, Statues, Dhumm
    W6: CA, Largos, Qadim
    W7: Sabir, Adina, Qadim 2.0
    Total: 25, so 50g + additional bonus [doubled rewards from 2 random wings] = 62-66g.

    I counted the exotics and other loot in that aswell. They add up fast. It is after all one Guaranteed exotic and some yellow uni gear if im not mistaken. But still 100 was a bit of an overkill. 80-90 depending about rng sounds more correct.

    Actually 100g is about right on average.

    The pure gold reward is around 60-66g. The reward in guaranteed exotic items is between 7.5 - 25 gold (depending on the exotic items. I calculated 0.30 to 1g per reward. Average should be a bit higher given often at least 1-2 valuable sigils are in there). The Magnetite Shards and Gaeting Crystals are 15g and 18g respectively (at each 150 gained). The CM rewards are 10 gold on top. That is without any ascended loot factored in or potential infusion or other sell-able drops.

    I personally don't mind either way. I know enough players who clear raids multiple times per week. Some even multiple full clears.

    Only issue I would warn against is players with a completion OCD burning out or creating more pressure to raid after the initial raid clear or creating a situation where experienced raiders are given less motivation in helping out. As it stands, a major reason why some players raid beyond their full clear in other raid squads to help is is exactly because raids don't offer continuous daily rewards.

  • Akir.9312Akir.9312 Member ✭✭
    edited February 8, 2021

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @sokeenoppa.5384 said:

    @Antycypator.9874 said:
    KP, LI/DL and should be once per week, but other rewards (Gold, Shards/Crystals, exotic items and chance for Asc item) — daily. It's still low income compared to specific OW farms or FoTM, but I would probably do raids more, because I actually enjoy raids.

    @sokeenoppa.5384 said:
    That would be ~700 gold/week IF player would do full clear every day. Imo that sounds kinda balanced when compared to other gold farming methods. It would also perhaps make raids less dead content.

    Edit: just correct me if i said stupid about the gold from FC, i really dont remember anymore how much it is 😅

    It's 25 encounters (rewarded):
    W1: VG, Pre-Gorse, Gorseval, Sabetha
    W2: Sloth, Trio, Matthias
    W3: Escort, KC, Twisted Castle, Xera
    W4: Cairn, MO, Samarog, Deimos
    W5: SH, River, Statues, Dhumm
    W6: CA, Largos, Qadim
    W7: Sabir, Adina, Qadim 2.0
    Total: 25, so 50g + additional bonus [doubled rewards from 2 random wings] = 62-66g.

    I counted the exotics and other loot in that aswell. They add up fast. It is after all one Guaranteed exotic and some yellow uni gear if im not mistaken. But still 100 was a bit of an overkill. 80-90 depending about rng sounds more correct.

    Actually 100g is about right on average.

    The pure gold reward is around 60-66g. The reward in guaranteed exotic items is between 7.5 - 25 gold (depending on the exotic items. I calculated 0.30 to 1g per reward. Average should be a bit higher given often at least 1-2 valuable sigils are in there). The Magnetite Shards and Gaeting Crystals are 15g and 18g respectively (at each 150 gained). The CM rewards are 10 gold on top. That is without any ascended loot factored in or potential infusion or other sell-able drops.

    I personally don't mind either way. I know enough players who clear raids multiple times per week. Some even multiple full clears.

    Only issue I would warn against is players with a completion OCD burning out or creating more pressure to raid after the initial raid clear or creating a situation where experienced raiders are given less motivation in helping out. As it stands, a major reason why some players raid beyond their full clear in other raid squads to help is is exactly because raids don't offer continuous daily rewards.

    I see your point, maybe there is some middle ground to be found, where repeating raids isn't worthless but not good enough to be a grind content. i have seen many posts from you in the forum and i apreciate you taking the time to reply here . tyvm

  • sokeenoppa.5384sokeenoppa.5384 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @sokeenoppa.5384 said:

    @Antycypator.9874 said:
    KP, LI/DL and should be once per week, but other rewards (Gold, Shards/Crystals, exotic items and chance for Asc item) — daily. It's still low income compared to specific OW farms or FoTM, but I would probably do raids more, because I actually enjoy raids.

    @sokeenoppa.5384 said:
    That would be ~700 gold/week IF player would do full clear every day. Imo that sounds kinda balanced when compared to other gold farming methods. It would also perhaps make raids less dead content.

    Edit: just correct me if i said stupid about the gold from FC, i really dont remember anymore how much it is 😅

    It's 25 encounters (rewarded):
    W1: VG, Pre-Gorse, Gorseval, Sabetha
    W2: Sloth, Trio, Matthias
    W3: Escort, KC, Twisted Castle, Xera
    W4: Cairn, MO, Samarog, Deimos
    W5: SH, River, Statues, Dhumm
    W6: CA, Largos, Qadim
    W7: Sabir, Adina, Qadim 2.0
    Total: 25, so 50g + additional bonus [doubled rewards from 2 random wings] = 62-66g.

    I counted the exotics and other loot in that aswell. They add up fast. It is after all one Guaranteed exotic and some yellow uni gear if im not mistaken. But still 100 was a bit of an overkill. 80-90 depending about rng sounds more correct.

    Actually 100g is about right on average.

    The pure gold reward is around 60-66g. The reward in guaranteed exotic items is between 7.5 - 25 gold (depending on the exotic items. I calculated 0.30 to 1g per reward. Average should be a bit higher given often at least 1-2 valuable sigils are in there). The Magnetite Shards and Gaeting Crystals are 15g and 18g respectively (at each 150 gained). The CM rewards are 10 gold on top. That is without any ascended loot factored in or potential infusion or other sell-able drops.

    I personally don't mind either way. I know enough players who clear raids multiple times per week. Some even multiple full clears.

    Only issue I would warn against is players with a completion OCD burning out or creating more pressure to raid after the initial raid clear or creating a situation where experienced raiders are given less motivation in helping out. As it stands, a major reason why some players raid beyond their full clear in other raid squads to help is is exactly because raids don't offer continuous daily rewards.

    Didn't even think about the OCD, it might be a proplem indeed. Personally i raid ALOT after my FC so it would be nice to get atleast something to cover the food cost of those runs where i dont get anything 😅
    Then again i would be even happy to get a new achievement called "daily raid boss killer" or something like that.
    Simply just give player a few gold, some trash loot and 1 or 2 achievement points every day when you kill your first raid boss.

    I'll have two number 9s, a number 9 large, a number 6 with extra dip, a number 7, two number 45s, one with cheese, and a large soda.

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Sure, why not. At the same time i'd guess OW should get its own legendary armor, and a source of ascended gear as good as magnetites are.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 8, 2021

    There are work around options to pressure. In essence a system which:

    • does not create pressure on daily participation or is flexible in its rewards (some such systems are already in game. For example reward tracks. They can be made to always provide a similar amount of progression towards a designated reward irrelevant to the point of acquisition in time outside of game)
    • does not incentivize less participation in other content, this can lead exceedingly fast to burnout (no matter if fractals, wvw, spvp, tutorial raids, open world, etc. All would be affected "if" players suddenly spend 4 hours per day in raids. As a matter of fact, this is just what many fractal gods experience after actually reaching god and running the content daily for years- subjective opinion)
    • does not provide exclusive loot which makes success mandatory. For example: LI/LD make success mandatory in raids. As such pressure is high to get as many as possible before a reset. Gold on the other hand is not mandatory, yet is the most fluent and interchange-able resource in game and as such could also be very desirable

    Off the top of my head, and not accounting for this being a solution:
    We could have a reward track similar progression which allows for reward accumulation outside of regular clears, potentially daily capped in contribution if daily rewards are desired, which pays out at the end of the week. Strike missions already operate on a similar system with their first 3 dailies per week rewarding crystals (yet allowing these dailies to occur during any point in time of the week). The rewards gained would need to be non LI/LD and just additional "common" loot (aka Clovers, Gold, Materials, etc.) as to not create exclusive reward pressure.

    This would keep pressure to raid daily lower as well as reduce pressure to raid successfully. The rewards would merely be acquired over more time. This could be expanded upon with weekly resets of the track or capped progression per week, redistributing the necessity to complete raid bosses over a large period of time.

    Obviously with more and more such system in place, the reward structure become more and more convoluted, which poses a problem of its own.

    TL;DR:
    The weekly reward cycle has it benefits and detriments both to players who have reached the reward as wells as those who have not. Always keep that in mind.

  • sokeenoppa.5384sokeenoppa.5384 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Astralporing.1957 said:
    Sure, why not. At the same time i'd guess OW should get its own legendary armor, and a source of ascended gear as good as magnetites are.

    Sure. And naturally raids will get 2 sets of unique legendary weapons, fair trade :)

    I'll have two number 9s, a number 9 large, a number 6 with extra dip, a number 7, two number 45s, one with cheese, and a large soda.

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 8, 2021

    @sokeenoppa.5384 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:
    Sure, why not. At the same time i'd guess OW should get its own legendary armor, and a source of ascended gear as good as magnetites are.

    Sure. And naturally raids will get 2 sets of unique legendary weapons, fair trade :)

    Okay, you win. Let's agree on OW getting the envoy set, not an unique one, and with Raiders being able to buy OW-specific gen 1/2 legendary weapon components with LI.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • sokeenoppa.5384sokeenoppa.5384 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @sokeenoppa.5384 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:
    Sure, why not. At the same time i'd guess OW should get its own legendary armor, and a source of ascended gear as good as magnetites are.

    Sure. And naturally raids will get 2 sets of unique legendary weapons, fair trade :)

    Okay, you win. Let's agree on OW getting the envoy set, not an unique one, and with Raiders being able to buy OW-specific gen 1/2 legendary weapon components with LI.

    I really dont care, just teasing you 😄
    I dont care what rewards open world has/gets. I just want the game mode i play reward me other days than monday when i do my full clear. Rewards can be whatever really, as long as they feel even just a little rewarding

    I'll have two number 9s, a number 9 large, a number 6 with extra dip, a number 7, two number 45s, one with cheese, and a large soda.

  • Akir.9312Akir.9312 Member ✭✭

    @sokeenoppa.5384 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @sokeenoppa.5384 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:
    Sure, why not. At the same time i'd guess OW should get its own legendary armor, and a source of ascended gear as good as magnetites are.

    Sure. And naturally raids will get 2 sets of unique legendary weapons, fair trade :)

    Okay, you win. Let's agree on OW getting the envoy set, not an unique one, and with Raiders being able to buy OW-specific gen 1/2 legendary weapon components with LI.

    I really dont care, just teasing you 😄
    I dont care what rewards open world has/gets. I just want the game mode i play reward me other days than monday when i do my full clear. Rewards can be whatever really, as long as they feel even just a little rewarding

    yes, this is what i feel, i either burn it all on monday or split clears between 2 days and the rest of the day i am getting as much from raids as i get from a champion chest

  • sokeenoppa.5384sokeenoppa.5384 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Akir.9312 said:

    @sokeenoppa.5384 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @sokeenoppa.5384 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:
    Sure, why not. At the same time i'd guess OW should get its own legendary armor, and a source of ascended gear as good as magnetites are.

    Sure. And naturally raids will get 2 sets of unique legendary weapons, fair trade :)

    Okay, you win. Let's agree on OW getting the envoy set, not an unique one, and with Raiders being able to buy OW-specific gen 1/2 legendary weapon components with LI.

    I really dont care, just teasing you 😄
    I dont care what rewards open world has/gets. I just want the game mode i play reward me other days than monday when i do my full clear. Rewards can be whatever really, as long as they feel even just a little rewarding

    yes, this is what i feel, i either burn it all on monday or split clears between 2 days and the rest of the day i am getting as much from raids as i get from a champion chest

    Im leading training raids or just having fun with lfg groups rest of the week, feels bad that im kinda like losing money while doing so because of food. Sure one could argue that food is optional but anyways.

    I'll have two number 9s, a number 9 large, a number 6 with extra dip, a number 7, two number 45s, one with cheese, and a large soda.

  • Mungo Zen.9364Mungo Zen.9364 Member ✭✭✭

    I like these ideas as I can see an opportunity for training guilds to run more training groups, allowing newer players to get more reps in this content. By maintaining the existing rewards to a weekly cycle but allow trash/gold drops for repeat clears, it opens up this opportunity by incentivizing repeat clears for veteran raiders but doesn't make them 'required'.

  • WindBlade.8749WindBlade.8749 Member ✭✭✭

    Doing a daily reset will make burn out people way too fast (i already burn out of fractals because of t4 (will not have burnout if it's was cm only), i know that they will do it even without li reward, so maybe another system than this one, like people say the first idea you get are often the worst.

  • Akir.9312Akir.9312 Member ✭✭

    people repeat raids atm just for fun, i just think that considering the content there should be greater rewards for completion, even if repeating the content.

  • Henry.5713Henry.5713 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Lost count on how many repeated kills I have done over the years, even with having multiple accounts and all that. It was never about the gold for me but it has always seemed a little strange that even the most profitable content allowed you to farm 24/7 while raids were designed with a long lockout.

    Adding daily wings and possibly even daily CMs sounds interesting. Players who usually stick to their static might do a quick daily wing once in a while. There are quite a few raiders out there who can't be kitten with gearing multiple accounts as well as those who haven't been able to do so yet. They would certainly be interested but they would also need to LFG with most likely half of their static missing or unwilling to join. Which would lead to a more active LFG and thus allow new raiders to get certain wings done more easily.

    Progress isn't made by early risers. It's made by lazy men trying to find easier ways to do something. ~ Robert Heinlein

  • Luci.7018Luci.7018 Member ✭✭
    edited February 11, 2021

    Maybe a "Toss A Coin To Your Witcher " mechanic + the Fractal participation we had ?
    Where people that have completed the Raid , get a magical "Coin" that offer luck to the bearer .

    Meaning that it will force you to go in the Training Golem and try to test your damage x10 times , then the system will take your best score (with buffs) and try to calculate the difference with it and most usual Raid damage meters . Then occasionally the Coin will shoot "Fire blast" , every 3 sec ,to fill the meter gap.
    There's also a minimal threshold , while he wears Knights Gear

    The coin effect is reduced with each successful attempts (reaching 0) , and your account cannot benefit from it any longer , or when it is gifted to you again.
    You can only hold 2 coins per account .
    You get max end monthly rewards/participation , based on how many coins you spread towards other people.
    You get bonus coin participation , if a people with "fresh coin" completes a Raid

    toss it, to the people in LA , or the starting areas , ot Deposit it in a "Flower" outside the LA Raid Area (one per 5 days), with a "Personal message -Keep the Change" attached

    Then , there still KP...
    edit:
    Maybe representatives from Training Guilds , using the LFG , offer Gems to their Guild/based participation ?

    0
    Sincerely Oathbreaker..

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    The weekly raid achievements (CM and normal) were added in September 2020, 5 years after the initial raid release (November 2015) and a quarter less than 4 years after the release of Bastion of the Penitent (February 2017), the first Raid with "actual" Challenge Motes. Baby steps required and an abysmal slow pace when it comes to Raid changes. As for a daily Raid reset, they could do a reset bi-weekly for starters and see how it goes. Since it's content only a minority plays what could hurt anyway?

  • Fangoth.4503Fangoth.4503 Member ✭✭✭
    edited February 12, 2021

    @sokeenoppa.5384 said:
    Raid rewards are already pretty bad, a bit more than 100 gold from FC once/week if you sell your loot. However if we could repeat them as much as we want, that would change into 100 gold/4 hour for casual players like myself. Imo that would be bit too much.

    25gold an hour isn't that much anyway. magnetite/gaeting and ascended gear should be weekly. Gold, exotics, li and kp should be per kill so people are not timegated for li/kp and raid income would get a bit closer to pve farms. the biggest issue would be people farming cairn or mo and get 2 gold every 1.5-2 min and i guess it can be countered by reducing the reward if its repeated too often.

  • The Fear.3865The Fear.3865 Member ✭✭✭

    @Fangoth.4503 said:
    25gold an hour isn't that much anyway. magnetite/gaeting and ascended gear should be weekly. Gold, exotics, li and kp should be per kill so people are not timegated for li/kp and raid income would get a bit closer to pve farms. the biggest issue would be people farming cairn or mo and get 2 gold every 1.5-2 min and i guess it can be countered by reducing the reward if its repeated too often.

    LI should remains weekly rewards, it would be unfair for peepo farming raids for years.

    Kp, gold and exotics should be per kill, new players won't be time gated for killproofs, which is needed imo. 15 weeks to get 50kp is dumbo, I can kill dhuum 15 times in a day if I want to, experience shouldnt be timegated.

    Cairn and MO farm is ez to prevent, if you kill one boss, it remains dead until FC. How often would you kill deimos if everytime you leave the instance you need to kill Cairn again ?

  • Fangoth.4503Fangoth.4503 Member ✭✭✭
    edited February 14, 2021

    @The Fear.3865 said:

    @Fangoth.4503 said:
    25gold an hour isn't that much anyway. magnetite/gaeting and ascended gear should be weekly. Gold, exotics, li and kp should be per kill so people are not timegated for li/kp and raid income would get a bit closer to pve farms. the biggest issue would be people farming cairn or mo and get 2 gold every 1.5-2 min and i guess it can be countered by reducing the reward if its repeated too often.

    LI should remains weekly rewards, it would be unfair for peepo farming raids for years.

    you get the same experience (well even better skill as you don't have 1 week to forget your mistakes in between) if you kill a boss 100 time in a day than the guy that kill it 100 week so li shouln't be timegated either. for the same reason as you mentionned below

    Kp, gold and exotics should be per kill, new players won't be time gated for killproofs, which is needed imo. 15 weeks to get 50kp is dumbo, I can kill dhuum 15 times in a day if I want to, experience shouldnt be timegated.

    Cairn and MO farm is ez to prevent, if you kill one boss, it remains dead until FC. How often would you kill deimos if everytime you leave the instance you need to kill Cairn again ?

    why would i kill deimos if i can just reopen with my alt? so not the easiest thing afterall. so i maintain it would need something similar to what was implemented in dungeons to avoid player farming fast bosses

  • Ayrilana.1396Ayrilana.1396 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 14, 2021

    @Fangoth.4503 said:

    @The Fear.3865 said:

    @Fangoth.4503 said:
    25gold an hour isn't that much anyway. magnetite/gaeting and ascended gear should be weekly. Gold, exotics, li and kp should be per kill so people are not timegated for li/kp and raid income would get a bit closer to pve farms. the biggest issue would be people farming cairn or mo and get 2 gold every 1.5-2 min and i guess it can be countered by reducing the reward if its repeated too often.

    LI should remains weekly rewards, it would be unfair for peepo farming raids for years.

    LI should be time-gated otherwise players would just farm the easiest boss over and over. Before you counter me about players currently being able to do that, realize that doing so takes about 3 years for the first legendary armor set. Having LI not timegated to weekly would be harmful to raids.

  • Fangoth.4503Fangoth.4503 Member ✭✭✭
    edited February 14, 2021

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:

    @Fangoth.4503 said:

    @The Fear.3865 said:

    @Fangoth.4503 said:
    25gold an hour isn't that much anyway. magnetite/gaeting and ascended gear should be weekly. Gold, exotics, li and kp should be per kill so people are not timegated for li/kp and raid income would get a bit closer to pve farms. the biggest issue would be people farming cairn or mo and get 2 gold every 1.5-2 min and i guess it can be countered by reducing the reward if its repeated too often.

    LI should remains weekly rewards, it would be unfair for peepo farming raids for years.


    LI should be time-gated otherwise players would just farm the easiest boss over and over. Before you counter me about players currently being able to do that, realize that doing so takes about 3 years for the first legendary armor set. Having LI not timegated to weekly would be harmful to raids.

    not at all, i stopped to raid for the LI long ago, when you reach 750LI and 150LD they are just worthless so it's not an issue having player able to earn them faster and armors would still be timegated behind provisioner token. no harm done to raid at all.
    but not having a catchup mech is harmfull for raid as newcomer have their "experience" timegated even though if they kill vg over and over for a week they can reach a level above pug average for this boss

  • The Fear.3865The Fear.3865 Member ✭✭✭

    LI should remains weekly rewards, it would be unfair for peepo farming raids for years.

    you get the same experience (well even better skill as you don't have 1 week to forget your mistakes in between) if you kill a boss 100 time in a day than the guy that kill it 100 week so li shouln't be timegated either. for the same reason as you mentionned below

    Kp are useless, li are meant to craft pve legy armor. Ask anet to even more ignore the veterans, please. But honestly, idc. I hate time gated content. Lazy pepega should stay where they belong.

    why would i kill deimos if i can just reopen with my alt? so not the easiest thing afterall. so i maintain it would need something similar to what was implemented in dungeons to avoid player farming fast bosses

    Fair enough. See, ez.

  • Fangoth.4503Fangoth.4503 Member ✭✭✭

    @The Fear.3865 said:

    LI should remains weekly rewards, it would be unfair for peepo farming raids for years.

    you get the same experience (well even better skill as you don't have 1 week to forget your mistakes in between) if you kill a boss 100 time in a day than the guy that kill it 100 week so li shouln't be timegated either. for the same reason as you mentionned below

    Kp are useless, li are meant to craft pve legy armor. Ask anet to even more ignore the veterans, please. But honestly, idc. I hate time gated content. Lazy pepega should stay where they belong.

    kp i meant to be use in guild whatever. i know li are used for crafing armor, but how it gonna affect veterans? i personally have 1.5k+ and i see no way it will affect me if players are able to get the li and kp everytime they kill the boss. well it would make me start to destroy li and kp to avoid overfilling the bank

  • Ayrilana.1396Ayrilana.1396 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 14, 2021

    @Fangoth.4503 said:

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:

    @Fangoth.4503 said:

    @The Fear.3865 said:

    @Fangoth.4503 said:
    25gold an hour isn't that much anyway. magnetite/gaeting and ascended gear should be weekly. Gold, exotics, li and kp should be per kill so people are not timegated for li/kp and raid income would get a bit closer to pve farms. the biggest issue would be people farming cairn or mo and get 2 gold every 1.5-2 min and i guess it can be countered by reducing the reward if its repeated too often.

    LI should remains weekly rewards, it would be unfair for peepo farming raids for years.


    LI should be time-gated otherwise players would just farm the easiest boss over and over. Before you counter me about players currently being able to do that, realize that doing so takes about 3 years for the first legendary armor set. Having LI not timegated to weekly would be harmful to raids.

    not at all, i stopped to raid for the LI long ago, when you reach 750LI and 150LD they are just worthless so it's not an issue having player able to earn them faster and armors would still be timegated behind provisioner token. no harm done to raid at all.

    You stopped doing raids when you lost use for them. What do you think would have happened had you been able to get them much quicker and faster such as from grinding Mursaat Overseer over a weekend or two? Would you have done the other bosses beyond what was required for the collections? The current time-gated incentivizes players to do all bosses to maximize their LI gain. Removing this time-gate would essentially remove players from the raid playerbase pool as they'd just follow the path of least resistance. This is harmful to raids.

    It's the same exact thing that you see in open world maps once players have gotten all of the rewards and achievements. Surprisingly, they stop playing those maps.

    but not having a catchup mech is harmfull for raid as newcomer have their "experience" timegated even though if they kill vg over and over for a week they can reach a level above pug average for this boss

    Experience is primarily measured by KP, not LI.

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 14, 2021

    @Fangoth.4503 said:

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:

    @Fangoth.4503 said:

    @The Fear.3865 said:

    @Fangoth.4503 said:
    25gold an hour isn't that much anyway. magnetite/gaeting and ascended gear should be weekly. Gold, exotics, li and kp should be per kill so people are not timegated for li/kp and raid income would get a bit closer to pve farms. the biggest issue would be people farming cairn or mo and get 2 gold every 1.5-2 min and i guess it can be countered by reducing the reward if its repeated too often.

    LI should remains weekly rewards, it would be unfair for peepo farming raids for years.


    LI should be time-gated otherwise players would just farm the easiest boss over and over. Before you counter me about players currently being able to do that, realize that doing so takes about 3 years for the first legendary armor set. Having LI not timegated to weekly would be harmful to raids.

    not at all, i stopped to raid for the LI long ago, when you reach 750LI and 150LD they are just worthless so it's not an issue having player able to earn them faster and armors would still be timegated behind provisioner token. no harm done to raid at all.
    but not having a catchup mech is harmfull for raid as newcomer have their "experience" timegated even though if they kill vg over and over for a week they can reach a level above pug average for this boss

    You are assuming that there is no value in:

    • slow progression or gating which can lead to players cooperating over a longer time
    • overcoming more than 1 boss and learning multiple wings instead of farming a single fight over and over
    • there is no value in anticipation of rewards which are off in the future

    I'd say those are some very harmful assumptions for each and any content. Easily witnessed in other areas of this game, say achievements or new maps, where players rush their goals and then abandon the content. The fact that you stopped to care about LI/LD after reaching certain target values, which currently take a minimum of around 9-12 months, is meaningless if you do not attribute any value to the time you spent in acquiring those first LI/LD.

    What you are essentially saying is you found no value in the initial time you spent on raiding, gained no value from that time and as such the gating should be removed. Removing LI/LD weekly gating is not about the final LI/LD you gained, but the ones at the very beginning. You are off already assuming players will enjoy content and thus continue playing said content while you are taking one of the main reasons why players would engage with said content to begin with which I find very weird.

  • Fangoth.4503Fangoth.4503 Member ✭✭✭
    edited February 15, 2021

    >

    You stopped doing raids when you lost use for them. What do you think would have happened had you been able to get them much quicker and faster such as from grinding Mursaat Overseer over a weekend or two? Would you have done the other bosses beyond what was required for the collections? The current time-gated incentivizes players to do all bosses to maximize their LI gain. Removing this time-gate would essentially remove players from the raid playerbase pool as they'd just follow the path of least resistance. This is harmful to raids.

    I didn't stop playing raid and still does 2-3 fc/week even though after first kill there is no reward. ofc i would do other than cairn and mo as those boss aren't that interesting by themselves, i'm most often doing dhuum and q2 often up to 10 times a week.
    How is it harmful though? You mentionned below that LI are not a proof of experience so according to you it shouldn't influence lfg quality, the only thing that it would create is to allow player that don't care much about raid to get their armor faster and quit raid faster. but if you realise that w1-4 are mostly asking li then lfg might switch to kp which is totally fine.
    Nothing harmful, you just need to stop fearing new players

    It's the same exact thing that you see in open world maps once players have gotten all of the rewards and achievements. Surprisingly, they stop playing those maps.

    why people still raid then? above 750li for armor and 150 ld for coalescence you have no need for any li/ld, and farming maps are more interesting goldwise.

    Experience is primarily measured by KP, not LI.

    this is why w1-4 lfg ask for 100 to 500 LI (sometimes even more but for some reason the quality drops)

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    You are assuming that there is no value in:

    • slow progression or gating which can lead to players cooperating over a longer time
    • overcoming more than 1 boss and learning multiple wings instead of farming a single fight over and over
    • there is no value in anticipation of rewards which are off in the future

    I'd say those are some very harmful assumptions for each and any content. Easily witnessed in other areas of this game, say achievements or new maps, where players rush their goals and then abandon the content. The fact that you stopped to care about LI/LD after reaching certain target values, which currently take a minimum of around 9-12 months, is meaningless if you do not attribute any value to the time you spent in acquiring those first LI/LD.

    What you are essentially saying is you found no value in the initial time you spent on raiding, gained no value from that time and as such the gating should be removed. Removing LI/LD weekly gating is not about the final LI/LD you gained, but the ones at the very beginning. You are off already assuming players will enjoy content and thus continue playing said content while you are taking one of the main reasons why players would engage with said content to begin with which I find very weird.

    slow progression is straight bad as:
    1 - it forces players that don't enjoy the content and not willing to progress to access their objectives (leggy armor) to fill lfg for 9-12 month when they could just spend a week doing escort cairn mo over and over then go back to their favourite content.
    2 - it forces new player willing to learn and do a boss 10 times a day to improve to still have to wait 3 month to have the li/kp that prove they killed 10 times the boss 3 month ago.

    What do you rather have in your group? player that are willing to improve or players that don't care about their rotation and about mechs but want their legendary armor but are forced to stay forever due to the gated content???

    And I personally doubt it take any sain person 9-12month to realise if they enjoy raids or not. it take at max a week or so (if not a day)...

  • Ayrilana.1396Ayrilana.1396 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 15, 2021

    @Fangoth.4503 said:

    >

    You stopped doing raids when you lost use for them. What do you think would have happened had you been able to get them much quicker and faster such as from grinding Mursaat Overseer over a weekend or two? Would you have done the other bosses beyond what was required for the collections? The current time-gated incentivizes players to do all bosses to maximize their LI gain. Removing this time-gate would essentially remove players from the raid playerbase pool as they'd just follow the path of least resistance. This is harmful to raids.


    I didn't stop playing raid and still does 2-3 fc/week even though after first kill there is no reward. ofc i would do other than cairn and mo as those boss aren't that interesting by themselves, i'm most often doing dhuum and q2 often up to 10 times a week.

    Ok. The whole "stopped" part was confusing and that was what I interpreted it as.

    How is it harmful though? You mentionned below that LI are not a proof of experience so according to you it shouldn't influence lfg quality, the only thing that it would create is to allow player that don't care much about raid to get their armor faster and quit raid faster. but if you realise that w1-4 are mostly asking li then lfg might switch to kp which is totally fine.

    I already mentioned how it was harmful. I'll copy and paste it again (and likely a third time in a future post).

    What do you think would have happened had you been able to get them much quicker and faster such as from grinding Mursaat Overseer over a weekend or two? Would you have done the other bosses beyond what was required for the collections? The current time-gated incentivizes players to do all bosses to maximize their LI gain. Removing this time-gate would essentially remove players from the raid playerbase pool as they'd just follow the path of least resistance. This is harmful to raids.

    Nothing harmful, you just need to stop fearing new players

    New players who would take the path of least resistance and grind out the easiest and quickest boss? Those same players who would likely not touch the other bosses except for the one time needed for the collections? Yeah, I doubt I'd ever see those players when pugging. What about those who raid solely for legendary armor and the ring? Now that they can get LI much quicker they'll stop doing raids so much sooner. All that's left are those who don't care for LI.

    Real beneficial to raids. (hint: it's not)

    It's the same exact thing that you see in open world maps once players have gotten all of the rewards and achievements. Surprisingly, they stop playing those maps.

    why people still raid then? above 750li for armor and 150 ld for coalescence you have no need for any li/ld, and farming maps are more interesting goldwise.

    Some people like the challenge and content. That doesn't apply to everyone. Some people like dungeons and still do them despite having all of the skins. Others could care less about them and haven't touched them since getting all of the skins. The same can be said about the countless LS maps including those of the expansions. Just because some players still do them despite having all of the primary rewards doesn't mean than everyone else will do the same.

    Your suggestion would take away players from the existing playerbase and reduce the number of new players. It would also diminish the effort taken to obtain the legendary armor and ring.

    Experience is primarily measured by KP, not LI.

    this is why w1-4 lfg ask for 100 to 500 LI (sometimes even more but for some reason the quality drops)

    I rarely see LI as KP is a better estimate of someone's experience at a particular boss. All bosses give KP included wings 1-4.

  • Fangoth.4503Fangoth.4503 Member ✭✭✭

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:

    I already mentioned how it was harmful. I'll copy and paste it again (and likely a third time in a future post).

    What do you think would have happened had you been able to get them much quicker and faster such as from grinding Mursaat Overseer over a weekend or two? Would you have done the other bosses beyond what was required for the collections? The current time-gated incentivizes players to do all bosses to maximize their LI gain. Removing this time-gate would essentially remove players from the raid playerbase pool as they'd just follow the path of least resistance. This is harmful to raids.

    So it is bad because it will remove player that don't like raiding while those that enjoy it will stay? how this is a bad thing?

    New players who would take the path of least resistance and grind out the easiest and quickest boss? Those same players who would likely not touch the other bosses except for the one time needed for the collections? Yeah, I doubt I'd ever see those players when pugging. What about those who raid solely for legendary armor and the ring? Now that they can get LI much quicker they'll stop doing raids so much sooner. All that's left are those who don't care for LI.

    Real beneficial to raids. (hint: it's not)

    What a selfish thinking, forcing player to play with you for longer because they want an armor...
    you should rather focus on player that mentionned below rather than those that don't like the content. forcing player to do something they don't like for 9-12month is just bad

    Some people like the challenge and content. That doesn't apply to everyone.

    Your suggestion would take away players from the existing playerbase and reduce the number of new players. It would also diminish the effort taken to obtain the legendary armor and ring.

    mine is to let player that don't enjoy raid get over it quickly while player that enjoy raiding for the challend and or improve to continue which will improve lfg quality.
    While yours is to force player to play content they don't enjoy, how does it makes thing better? have you tried to force people to be your friend IRL? its pretty much as bad as that.
    and legendary armor isn't really an effort anymore since a player that would have done easy stuff since release have it by now (sw, trio, escort cover 750 if you've been steady to it) so it's not less an effor that those who decided to cheeze it from start.

    I rarely see LI as KP is a better estimate of someone's experience at a particular boss. All bosses give KP included wings 1-4.

    well I guess you're playing on NA. EU lfg are mostly made with LI for w1-4 and kp for w5-7
    as you say all boss (except trio) gives kp so doesn't matter if you gives the opportunity to to have more LI as kp will still be a proof of knowing X or Y boss

  • Ayrilana.1396Ayrilana.1396 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 15, 2021

    @Fangoth.4503 said:

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:

    I already mentioned how it was harmful. I'll copy and paste it again (and likely a third time in a future post).

    What do you think would have happened had you been able to get them much quicker and faster such as from grinding Mursaat Overseer over a weekend or two? Would you have done the other bosses beyond what was required for the collections? The current time-gated incentivizes players to do all bosses to maximize their LI gain. Removing this time-gate would essentially remove players from the raid playerbase pool as they'd just follow the path of least resistance. This is harmful to raids.

    So it is bad because it will remove player that don't like raiding while those that enjoy it will stay? how this is a bad thing?

    There are many things that people don't necessarily like but do because of the achievements and/or rewards. Less people doing raids obviously means a lower raiding population. That's hardly a good thing. But of course you appear to disagree... repeatedly.

    New players who would take the path of least resistance and grind out the easiest and quickest boss? Those same players who would likely not touch the other bosses except for the one time needed for the collections? Yeah, I doubt I'd ever see those players when pugging. What about those who raid solely for legendary armor and the ring? Now that they can get LI much quicker they'll stop doing raids so much sooner. All that's left are those who don't care for LI.

    Real beneficial to raids. (hint: it's not)

    What a selfish thinking, forcing player to play with you for longer because they want an armor...
    you should rather focus on player that mentionned below rather than those that don't like the content. forcing player to do something they don't like for 9-12month is just bad

    Funny that you should focus solely on the timing aspect it would take to acquire legendary armor and not the real issue that I have brought up twice to you so far. Why not argue against that instead of choosing the parts that are easier to argue against for you?

    Having a raid population, as well as one that encourages players to participate, is beneficial. The weekly timegate encourages players to participate in raids over a long term as well as in doing all of the bosses each week. This helps maintain the population.

    Some people like the challenge and content. That doesn't apply to everyone.

    Then raids are not for them. Raids were designed to be the most challenging content in the game.

    Your suggestion would take away players from the existing playerbase and reduce the number of new players. It would also diminish the effort taken to obtain the legendary armor and ring.

    mine is to let player that don't enjoy raid get over it quickly while player that enjoy raiding for the challend and or improve to continue which will improve lfg quality.
    While yours is to force player to play content they don't enjoy, how does it makes thing better? have you tried to force people to be your friend IRL? its pretty much as bad as that.
    and legendary armor isn't really an effort anymore since a player that would have done easy stuff since release have it by now (sw, trio, escort cover 750 if you've been steady to it) so it's not less an effor that those who decided to cheeze it from start.

    If they do not enjoy raids then they can simply not do them. Having LI time-gated makes things better as it helps maintain the population over the long term. It also encourages players to complete all of the wings every week. Rewards are a driving force for a large percentage of players in the game. What happens if Anet reduced the amount of gold players could obtain from fractals. Would just as many players still do them or would they abandon them like they did dungeons? Surely there are players who do fractals who don't necessarily enjoy them. How about all of the various farms in the game. There are people that don't enjoy the grind so would taking them away from the population that do the metas be beneficial? The Serpents Ire meta is sure flourishing.

    I rarely see LI as KP is a better estimate of someone's experience at a particular boss. All bosses give KP included wings 1-4.

    well I guess you're playing on NA. EU lfg are mostly made with LI for w1-4 and kp for w5-7
    as you say all boss (except trio) gives kp so doesn't matter if you gives the opportunity to to have more LI as kp will still be a proof of knowing X or Y boss

    It's odd that W1-4 and W5-7 are treated different as far as requirements. Players using something as a means to filter out players in their LFG isn't a reason to increase the speed one can acquire them when they're tied to rewards. Especially a reward which is a motivator for players to do raids.

    EDIT: Since I'm finding myself repeating myself there really isn't much left to say. If you feel that a lower population is better then that's your opinion but it's one I believe that the vast majority would disagree with. It's also a change that's incredibly unlikely to ever happen.

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 15, 2021

    @Fangoth.4503 said:
    slow progression is straight bad as:
    1 - it forces players that don't enjoy the content and not willing to progress to access their objectives (leggy armor) to fill lfg for 9-12 month when they could just spend a week doing escort cairn mo over and over then go back to their favourite content.
    2 - it forces new player willing to learn and do a boss 10 times a day to improve to still have to wait 3 month to have the li/kp that prove they killed 10 times the boss 3 month ago.

    What do you rather have in your group? player that are willing to improve or players that don't care about their rotation and about mechs but want their legendary armor but are forced to stay forever due to the gated content???

    And I personally doubt it take any sain person 9-12month to realise if they enjoy raids or not. it take at max a week or so (if not a day)...

    What a short sighted thing to say.

    1. Rewards and progression are not the same. Having meaningful progression in place, both in terms of reward structure as well as player development, instead of making everything available day 1 is useful in extending a contents lifecycle

    2. You are assuming fun and enjoyment of content is binary. A "you either enjoy it or not" state which players attain nearly immediately. You could not be more wrong. I would make the claim that many players find enjoyment in content they never expected simply because they were forced to try it.

    3. I would want players who look forward to raiding weekly, instead of grinding out their rewards in a huge upfront grind, then never touch the content again. You still seem not to understand or remember how those first 750 LI felt or went for you.

    4. You can doubt all you want. Do the math of how many LI/LD are available weekly, divide 750 LI and 150 LD by that amount, adjust for players not clearing all raid bosses from week 1 and you'll realize I am right. FYI 900/25 = 36/4 = 9. That's the timeframe it takes for someone to "finish" the requirements of LI/LD. That's also the timeframe the game has to make people fall in love with the content or not. Most players do not start out with a static or similar group. These 9 months, or more, are in place to ease players into the content, make them find other players to enjoy this content with and look past the rewards, while spreading out the rewards and achievements evenly between them. Unlike your suggestion which up-fronts all rewards in a meaningless super grind which does none of the above.

    Your suggestion basically shortcuts reward progression in an assumption that players at the end of this reward progression will be at or in the same state as you are or other long-term raiders. Meanwhile you forget or ignore all the developments players make and experience during this time period which you are trying to cut short. Your assumption, and thus resulting suggestion, is flawed and not reflective of player behavior or experience.

    @Fangoth.4503 said:
    well I guess you're playing on NA. EU lfg are mostly made with LI for w1-4 and kp for w5-7
    as you say all boss (except trio) gives kp so doesn't matter if you gives the opportunity to to have more LI as kp will still be a proof of knowing X or Y boss

    LI and KP both get used as a crutch in searching for a certain quality (mostly experience) in a player. If you remove the time-gate on LI/LD you both remove the necessity and/or probability of players having fought different bosses, being able to grind a single boss essentially, as well as any meaning of LI/LD gating.

    If LI/LD serve no more purpose in trying to determinate a players experience level, which is already evident for W5-7, of what use are they in making parties? I'm going to let you figure out the rest as we move on from here how the community and LFG searches would react. Again, please move past the obvious reasons and put some consideration in why certain things are being done as well as how changes would affect these issue in the future. Removing LI/LD weekly gating would no NOTHING as far as accessibility for new players is concerned.

    In case you need an in-game example and similar situation: look at what the removal of KP in fractals did to the LFG. So the entire argument that removing LI/LD weekly caps would in any way benefit this specific situation just goes out the window.

  • Fangoth.4503Fangoth.4503 Member ✭✭✭

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    What a short sighted thing to say.

    1. Rewards and progression are not the same. Having meaningful progression in place, both in terms of reward structure as well as player development, instead of making everything available day 1 is useful in extending a contents lifecycle

    2016-2021 is way more than one day, initial time gate are ok if not too crazy but as the content gets older at some point its better to favor the access for newer player rather than lock them down behin a no longer necessary timegate

    -> 2. You are assuming fun and enjoyment of content is binary. A "you either enjoy it or not" state which players attain nearly immediately. You could not be more wrong. I would make the claim that many players find enjoyment in content they never expected simply because they were forced to try it.

    kinda is though if you are not interested in raid at 751st liencounter you gonna show your middle finger and say i'm out of it. if you're enjoying raiding you gonna continue en enjoy clearing bosses. i never saw anyone going to raid saying i need nothing from it and don't like it but come anyway.

    1. I would want players who look forward to raiding weekly, instead of grinding out their rewards in a huge upfront grind, then never touch the content again. You still seem not to understand or remember how those first 750 LI felt or went for you.

    well I started my first armor well after haing 750li as I wasn't interested in one until tanking so i'm not best to talk about that. but I wouldn't have raid for the sole purpose of making a legy armor in a first place especially if it takes 9-12 month :#

    1. You can doubt all you want. Do the math of how many LI/LD are available weekly, divide 750 LI and 150 LD by that amount, adjust for players not clearing all raid bosses from week 1 and you'll realize I am right. FYI 900/25 = 36/4 = 9. That's the timeframe it takes for someone to "finish" the requirements of LI/LD. That's also the timeframe the game has to make people fall in love with the content or not. Most players do not start out with a static or similar group. These 9 months, or more, are in place to ease players into the content, make them find other players to enjoy this content with and look past the rewards, wgile spreading out the rewards and achievements out evenly between them. Unlike your suggestion which upfronts all rewards in a meaningless super grind which dies none of the above.

    i never heard of players that weren't enjoying raid at LI 1-749 and stated to enjoy it out of nowhere at 750th, maybe you can redirect me to some so i can understand better why they change their opinion of raid after doing them 36 times and see no changes to it :p
    alike any content you have a pretty strong opinion about it very quickly and being forced to repeat it over to get something out of will help you not enjoying it

    Your suggestion basically shortcuts reward progression in an assumption that players at the end of this reward progression will be at or in the same state as you are or other longterm raiders. Meanwhile you forget or ignore all the developments players make and experience during this time period which you are trying to cut short. Your assumption, and thus resulting suggestion, is flawed and not reflective of player behavior or experience.

    no my suggestion is to get rewarded for what you do and not how long you wait for it because I know it's better to encourage player that want to raid (for the raid part of it) to get in quickly instead of having them saying "F it no matter what I do I won't be able to go in descent group for three month" (which could help the community grow by joining it) rather than trying to keep player in for 9-12 month that will anyway that will tell you "F it i'm out of it since i got my 750LI" when you ask them to join(which in the end bring nothing positive to the raid community, except having a fake increase of the player base, as they leave it as soon as they can).

    The ideal would be to have a every leg being available in any content/gamemode to avoid players being dragged in a content they don't like which is not enjoyable for both youself and the group around you.
    But ofc playing more than one gamemode should be rewarded by making the player access to everything faster than someone that plays only one gamemode.

    worst in all that is that whenever legendary armory get out I will have to go in pvp, make some player fail and reduces their stats because I don't enjoy the content so i won't try to improve but still continue until I get the required thing for the ring or whatever can be obtained there. will surely be a great experience or not. too bad there is noway to obtain it whithout annoying this comunity but well its how the game is supposed to work

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 15, 2021

    @Fangoth.4503 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    What a short sighted thing to say.

    1. Rewards and progression are not the same. Having meaningful progression in place, both in terms of reward structure as well as player development, instead of making everything available day 1 is useful in extending a contents lifecycle

    2016-2021 is way more than one day, initial time gate are ok if not too crazy but as the content gets older at some point its better to favor the access for newer player rather than lock them down behin a no longer necessary timegate

    Again, access would not be affected by your suggestion. I added in my edit how your suggestion would not affect this in the slightest in my earlier reply.

    Gating will happen based around necessity or perceived necessity of the community. This is unrelated to access of items.

    @Fangoth.4503 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    2. You are assuming fun and enjoyment of content is binary. A "you either enjoy it or not" state which players attain nearly immediately. You could not be more wrong. I would make the claim that many players find enjoyment in content they never expected simply because they were forced to try it.

    kinda is though if you are not interested in raid at 751st liencounter you gonna show your middle finger and say i'm out of it. if you're enjoying raiding you gonna continue en enjoy clearing bosses. i never saw anyone going to raid saying i need nothing from it and don't like it but come anyway.

    I've seen tons of players get increased enjoyment from raids week after week as they progress through multiple stages of experience. Guess we have had very different experiences with new players here.

    @Fangoth.4503 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    3. I would want players who look forward to raiding weekly, instead of grinding out their rewards in a huge upfront grind, then never touch the content again. You still seem not to understand or remember how those first 750 LI felt or went for you.

    well I started my first armor well after haing 750li as I wasn't interested in one until tanking so i'm not best to talk about that. but I wouldn't have raid for the sole purpose of making a legy armor in a first place especially if it takes 9-12 month :#

    Fair enough. Still I believe having a meaningful mid to long-term progression in place is the best approach for many different players.

    @Fangoth.4503 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    4. You can doubt all you want. Do the math of how many LI/LD are available weekly, divide 750 LI and 150 LD by that amount, adjust for players not clearing all raid bosses from week 1 and you'll realize I am right. FYI 900/25 = 36/4 = 9. That's the timeframe it takes for someone to "finish" the requirements of LI/LD. That's also the timeframe the game has to make people fall in love with the content or not. Most players do not start out with a static or similar group. These 9 months, or more, are in place to ease players into the content, make them find other players to enjoy this content with and look past the rewards, wgile spreading out the rewards and achievements out evenly between them. Unlike your suggestion which upfronts all rewards in a meaningless super grind which dies none of the above.

    i never heard of players that weren't enjoying raid at LI 1-749 and stated to enjoy it out of nowhere at 750th, maybe you can redirect me to some so i can understand better why they change their opinion of raid after doing them 36 times and see no changes to it :p
    alike any content you have a pretty strong opinion about it very quickly and being forced to repeat it over to get something out of will help you not enjoying it

    But the content is not the same. Each and every boss fight and the challenge to overcome it poses a new opportunity for players to enjoy content, build new friendships and improve at the game.

    Again, I've seen new players take great enjoyment slowly battling through each and every encounter, while improving the coherence of the group/squad and social bonds with the guild.

    We even have multiple personal accounts of how players got into raiding and slowly started to appreciate it, even from players who were very skeptical of raiding to begin with.

    @Fangoth.4503 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    Your suggestion basically shortcuts reward progression in an assumption that players at the end of this reward progression will be at or in the same state as you are or other longterm raiders. Meanwhile you forget or ignore all the developments players make and experience during this time period which you are trying to cut short. Your assumption, and thus resulting suggestion, is flawed and not reflective of player behavior or experience.

    no my suggestion is to get rewarded for what you do and not how long you wait for it because I know it's better to encourage player that want to raid (for the raid part of it) to get in quickly instead of having them saying "F it no matter what I do I won't be able to go in descent group for three month" (which could help the community grow by joining it) rather than trying to keep player in for 9-12 month that will anyway that will tell you "F it i'm out of it since i got my 750LI" when you ask them to join(which in the end bring nothing positive to the raid community, except having a fake increase of the player base, as they leave it as soon as they can).

    Any players who wants to raid will find groups not via LI or LD or even KP.

    @Fangoth.4503 said:
    The ideal would be to have a every leg being available in any content/gamemode to avoid players being dragged in a content they don't like which is not enjoyable for both youself and the group around you.

    Sure, but that is a different issue and needs not be resolved with butchering the reward structure of one of the niche modes. I do agree though that offering alternatives to players who do not want to raid could be beneficial at this point in time.

  • Firebeard.1746Firebeard.1746 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Raid rewards used to be better if you repeated and then they nerfed them hard. I think more raw cash would be okay. maybe 50s-1g.

  • Linken.6345Linken.6345 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Firebeard.1746 said:
    Raid rewards used to be better if you repeated and then they nerfed them hard. I think more raw cash would be okay. maybe 50s-1g.

    Got a source for this because I dont remember any nerf to raid rewards.

  • Firebeard.1746Firebeard.1746 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Linken.6345 said:

    @Firebeard.1746 said:
    Raid rewards used to be better if you repeated and then they nerfed them hard. I think more raw cash would be okay. maybe 50s-1g.

    Got a source for this because I dont remember any nerf to raid rewards.

    I just remember seeing it in a patch note and some crying here after.

  • Akir.9312Akir.9312 Member ✭✭
    edited February 18, 2021

    Goodnight every1, sorry i could not check in before today. I am very happy to see that this topic incites debate and overall people seem to agree that raids need some form of replayability.
    My aim was never to dictate which form but rather to make them replayable.

    Regardless i do have a personal opinion on the topic :
    1.I agree with a gold reward per kill even after first clear, for example daily 2G per boss daily seems reasonable to me.
    2. I am not playing this game for long enough to understand the implications of some changes but i understand the possible consequences that were stated above by many experienced players, so i do agree that a decision like this would need to be thought through.

    On a non related note: I can imagine this subject was brought to light by numerous players before and was ignored each and every time so many of you may think this is futile but since i am a "fresher" player i consider it my responsability to give my opinion about the game i payed for/play. it doesn't make sense to expect changes and not contribute to them.

    Thank you all for your opinions .

  • Ragi.7291Ragi.7291 Member ✭✭✭
    edited February 19, 2021

    What if we turn raids into "Strike mission"? @Akir.9312
    1 invisible wall at the beginning of the arena and at the end and it's done.+ 1 ATH for selecting each boss.
    I make it very simple on purpose.
    After that we make an additional quota system which makes that every day 3 bosses reset for that day andwe will win extra-rewards such as : "magnetites" or "suppliers coupons" or "Trophy box".

    • 1st those who want to raid can earn more by doing raids every day.

    • 2nd it focuses the range of 3 bosses and makes it easier to find a group for people who are looking for an experienced or inexperienced boss.

    • 3rd it makes it possible to have as many bosses as you want, without having to clean a whole wing or find an opener to train or opti on 1 boss in particular.

    • 4th it allows the more relaxed player to have accessible raid bosses like escort, river, pre-gors, gate W7 like "Forge and steel" or "DRM" and it would still bring them something.

    Moreover, Anet could get out 1 or 2 boss more often because they wouldn't have to create a story, a specific environment, unique models, ...
    They can just reuse places from Tyria, and either create a boss, or take an existing moob and create a pattern and challenge for a raid content.
    example under "Tangled Depths" there is a room where you can access for a hidden success. It's perfect for a boss fight.

    Also, as hardly anyone has seen it, it could make it look like new content at low cost.

    At least it would have been contained, because at the moment the raid team has been disbanded.

    Sorry, English isn't my main language.