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Elite specialization tradeoffs?

Shroud.2307Shroud.2307 Member ✭✭✭✭
edited February 10, 2021 in Professions

What are the tradeoffs for each specialization? Here are the ones I know;

  • Scrapper: Reduced maximum health, no access to elite F5
  • Holosmith: No access to elite F5

  • Reaper: Increased Shroud degeneration

  • Scourge: Some traits (Path of Corruption, Dhuumfire) work differently, much higher recharge on Shroud.

  • Daredevil: Reduced range on Steal

  • Deadeye: ??? Stolen skills changed ???

  • Herald: ???

  • Renegade: ???

  • Druid: Reduced pet damage

  • Soulbeast: Only one pet can be used at a time

  • Berserker: Reduced armor

  • Spellbreaker: All Bursts count as 2 bars of Adrenaline

  • Dragonhunter: ???

  • Firebrand: ???

  • Mirage: Endurance bar reduced to 1

  • Chronomancer: ??? Shatters changed ???

  • Tempest: ???

  • Weaver: ???

Tradeoff = a balance achieved between two desirable but incompatible features; a compromise.
"a trade-off between objectivity and relevance"

Which of these elite specs do not have this?

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Comments

  • draxynnic.3719draxynnic.3719 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Reaper also loses the ranged attacks on Shroud. Faster health degen was applied as a general nerf to Reaper rather than as a tradeoff, although it does fit a general idea of core necro being the tanky build while Reaper is more DPS-oriented.

    Scourge loses regular shroud, being replaced by the shade skills.

    Deadeye has Steal replaced altogether with Mark, which, as you say, changes the stolen skills.

    Herald and Renegade both lose the core F2, which is primarily an energy management skill but which also provides another buff when used depending on the legend.

    Berserker only loses armour when in a rage - what they actually have traded out is the ability to use adrenal skills without being in a rage.

    Dragonhunter and Firebrand lose the instant-activation core virtues.

    Chronomancer has their shatters changed as you note.

    Weaver has a 3s cooldown on all attunements when switching (regular elementalist has a 10s cooldown on the attunement you just switched out of, but other attunements do not incur a cooldown).

    Tempest currently does not have an explicit tradeoff (longer recharge on using an overload doesn't count, since that only kicks in if you choose to use an overload, you can otherwise play a tempest just as a regular elementalist) - however, elementalist is probably in a state at the moment where it would be better to give core elementalist something (as happened with revenant) than give something to core tempest.

    And lets not forget that ALL elite specialisations give up a core traitline. This matters more for some professions than others, but in some cases a relatively weak explicit tradeoff is counterbalanced by having core traitlines that are good enough that giving up a core traitline is a considerable tradeoff (guardian is a good example of this - many people say that the explicit tradeoff is weak because the elite virtues are better in most circumstances than the core virtues, but guardian core is probably the core that is most used across a variety of game modes, since the core traitlines are good enough to justify it).

  • Dadnir.5038Dadnir.5038 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Shroud.2307 said:
    What are the tradeoffs for each specialization? Here are the ones I know;

    • Scrapper: Reduced maximum health, no access to elite F5
    • Holosmith: No access to elite F5

    More or less. Not sure Holosmith's is a fair trade off, thought.

    • Reaper: Increased Shroud degeneration

    You mainly trade a skillset for another that is a bit more costly.

    • Scourge: Some traits (Path of Corruption, Dhuumfire) work differently, much higher recharge on Shroud.

    I wouldn't say that those are trade off, it's more poor balance than anything. What the scourge trade is the "transformation" for skills that are accessible out of shrouds. it's a freedom gain at the cost of survivability.

    • Daredevil: Reduced range on Steal
    • Deadeye: ??? Stolen skills changed ???

    Loss of mobility on F1, half for the daredevil and complete for the deadeye.

    • Herald: ???
    • Renegade: ???

    For both it's a trade off in energy management. Core have the ability to ponctually resplenish it's energy, Herald the ability to apply a constant drain on it's energy and Renegade have heavier requierement on energy.

    • Druid: Reduced pet damage
    • Soulbeast: Only one pet can be used at a time

    More or less, the ranger's e-specs trade offs aren't ideal.

    • Berserker: Reduced armor

    Not really, it's a trade off for more power and condition damage within the same trait. The trade off of the berserk is that it's bursts are gated behind "berserk mode" and that he only use 1 bar of adrenaline for each burst.

    • Spellbreaker: All Bursts count as 2 bars of Adrenaline

    More or less.

    • Dragonhunter: ???

    Slightly higher CD and a cast time on it's virtue that are instant for core.

    • Firebrand: ???

    A shared amount of "charge" to use it's tome skills. I believe there is to much charge to use for this trade off to be fair but that's just my opinion.

    • Mirage: Endurance bar reduced to 1
    • Chronomancer: ??? Shatters changed ???

    Yes, that's it.

    • Tempest: ???

    Longer attunment CD, which can be extended even further by overloading.

    • Weaver: ???

    Loss of flexibility due to shared CD on attunment swap. (Or so I think, I'm not sure if the shared CD is a thing). Anyway, if the skill 4 and 5 of a specific attunment are what you need, it take longer for you to get them, which in essence can put you into a jeopardy.

    Tradeoff = a balance achieved between two desirable but incompatible features; a compromise.
    "a trade-off between objectivity and relevance"

    Which of these elite specs do not have this?

    They all have a trade off, some of those trade off are more fair than other, thought.

  • Yasai.3549Yasai.3549 Member ✭✭✭✭

    All Especs trade something off.

    But some just gain so much benefit the tradeoffs don't matter.

    Herald and Renegade are examples of this:
    They lose an active which gives Energy and a buff, but they gain so much more if yu include the new Legends they can slot as well as the weapon loadouts they can field.

    If I play a stupid build, I deserve to die.
    If I beat people on a stupid build, I deserve to get away with it.

  • phokus.8934phokus.8934 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Mirages trade-off is it gets a different dodge. It was just flat out nerfed in pvp and wvw but retains its two dodges in pve.

  • Grand Marshal.4098Grand Marshal.4098 Member ✭✭✭
    edited February 10, 2021

    Spellbreaker has 2 adrenaline bars but can only use T1 bursts. So Grandmasters like Cleansing Ire, Berserker's Power lose a lot of their potential from Core builds.

    As for Berserker, the inability to use bursts outside of Berserk Mode and when it's activated you get a tooughness penalty on top of the fact that your bursts are T1 bursts again, is a bit of an overkill for the spec in competetive. I really hope for some balance on Berserker. As in: F2 to exit Berserk Mode, no toughness penalty (if not a toughness buff, like 100 extra toughness), or lower Berserk Mode CD. Berserkers on CD are sitting ducks waiting to be killed.

    P.S. Whatever the new spec is, I wonder if they go for T1 bursts again, or if they will maintain the T2 and T3 bursts on it. What will the trade-off be hmm.

    Make Banner Warrior for Zergs great again!!!

  • Tseison.4659Tseison.4659 Member ✭✭✭

    Yeah Mesmers have gotten less treatment than every other profession and for the Mirage, losing our second dodge in PvP/WvW is NOT a trade off. It might “seem” like one for some people but that’s because people in the community had to wine to have it happen. But then professions like [Daredevil] get to keep their 3 dishes intaked.

    Additionally, the “trade offs” you’ve listed are VERY minor when compared to severely crippling ones like what the Mirage sustained.

  • Jski.6180Jski.6180 Member ✭✭✭✭

    DH and FB get different F1-5 effects that SOME WHAT of an tradeoff but a very week on.

    I have always been of the mind that elite spec should lose a wepon equal to the one they get and a utility line equal to the one they get. The lack of a real trade off for all elite spec hold balancing back by a lot for both the core and the elite spec them self.

    See ELE forms and you will get my views.

  • @draxynnic.3719 said:
    And lets not forget that ALL elite specialisations give up a core traitline. This matters more for some professions than others, but in some cases a relatively weak explicit tradeoff is counterbalanced by having core traitlines that are good enough that giving up a core traitline is a considerable tradeoff (guardian is a good example of this - many people say that the explicit tradeoff is weak because the elite virtues are better in most circumstances than the core virtues, but guardian core is probably the core that is most used across a variety of game modes, since the core traitlines are good enough to justify it).

    This fact is overlooked way too much. The original design for elite specs was that taking the spec was the tradeoff, because it locked you out of 3 of the 5 core traitlines. To take holosmith as an example, while the loss of the f5 skill isn't much of a loss considering how powerful forge is, the loss of your third traitline is very significant. There isn't a single trait in the holosmith traitline that works without forge: all of them change a forge skill, change what happens when you leave/enter it, change your overheat/max heat, etc. If you don't go into forge at all, you're wasting an entire traitline. This means that holo is much less durable out of forge than core engi, because core has the addition of a third traitline (probably tools or inventions) to keep them alive and supplement their damage. The issue with engineer is that those other core traitlines are just so weak that they can't compare to the value that holosmith brings.

    By reworking the core traitlines of some classes, spreading out synergies that require 3 traitlines to work, elite specs could become much more of a tradeoff than they currently are without the need to give profession mechanics forced changes.

  • Trianox.3486Trianox.3486 Member ✭✭✭

    People seem stuck with the whole "trade-off" part, but you can also see it as a change in terms of game play.
    Necro, reaper and scourge are great examples of that. They quite differently from one another.

    Bottom line, all those three play very differently. You could play them similarly, more or less, but they have inherent differences. Here is your trade-off, or change.
    Unfortunately, the term "trade-off" misleads into thinking about balance... while that is a whole different issue.
    Of course, we could argue about power level, but that's a different story. One might argue Repear shroud or Scourge shades or whatever to be better or worse... but it depends on circumstances... and individual skills and trait lines then, and their synergies with core trait lines...!

    The balance discussion isn't about whether those trade-off are sufficiant in terms of change of mechanics. It should be, in my opinion, about the disporportionate strength between "3 core trait lines" VS "1 elite + 2 core trait lines". Is it outof tune completely or not? (Then of course, we have to account that not every single combination of traits is optimal for DPS or survivability. "Everything" more or less work for open world, but not everything is enjoyable or effective, regardless of trait lines, e-specs, and individual traits you took or not.)

  • @Grand Marshal.4098 said:
    Spellbreaker has 2 adrenaline bars but can only use T1 bursts. So Grandmasters like Cleansing Ire, Berserker's Power lose a lot of their potential from Core builds.

    As for Berserker, the inability to use bursts outside of Berserk Mode and when it's activated you get a tooughness penalty on top of the fact that your bursts are T1 bursts again, is a bit of an overkill for the spec in competetive. I really hope for some balance on Berserker. As in: F2 to exit Berserk Mode, no toughness penalty (if not a toughness buff, like 100 extra toughness), or lower Berserk Mode CD. Berserkers on CD are sitting ducks waiting to be killed.

    P.S. Whatever the new spec is, I wonder if they go for T1 bursts again, or if they will maintain the T2 and T3 bursts on it. What will the trade-off be hmm.

    Berserker is easily the most stupidly, horribly designed spec on the whole game

    It's essentially a warrior with only 2 trait lines 30-40% of the time

  • Kodama.6453Kodama.6453 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Konrad Curze.5130 said:

    @Grand Marshal.4098 said:
    Spellbreaker has 2 adrenaline bars but can only use T1 bursts. So Grandmasters like Cleansing Ire, Berserker's Power lose a lot of their potential from Core builds.

    As for Berserker, the inability to use bursts outside of Berserk Mode and when it's activated you get a tooughness penalty on top of the fact that your bursts are T1 bursts again, is a bit of an overkill for the spec in competetive. I really hope for some balance on Berserker. As in: F2 to exit Berserk Mode, no toughness penalty (if not a toughness buff, like 100 extra toughness), or lower Berserk Mode CD. Berserkers on CD are sitting ducks waiting to be killed.

    P.S. Whatever the new spec is, I wonder if they go for T1 bursts again, or if they will maintain the T2 and T3 bursts on it. What will the trade-off be hmm.

    Berserker is easily the most stupidly, horribly designed spec on the whole game

    It's essentially a warrior with only 2 trait lines 30-40% of the time

    Honestly, I don't get why some people have such a huge problem with how the berserker trait line functions.
    Holosmith goes even further than this class, the entire trait line is built on the photonforge, not a single trait in that line works without the photonforge at all.

    Yet you don't read people complaining all the time "holosmith has no trait line 50% of the time!"....

  • Dadnir.5038Dadnir.5038 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Kodama.6453 said:

    @Konrad Curze.5130 said:
    Berserker is easily the most stupidly, horribly designed spec on the whole game

    It's essentially a warrior with only 2 trait lines 30-40% of the time

    Honestly, I don't get why some people have such a huge problem with how the berserker trait line functions.
    Holosmith goes even further than this class, the entire trait line is built on the photonforge, not a single trait in that line works without the photonforge at all.

    Yet you don't read people complaining all the time "holosmith has no trait line 50% of the time!"....

    I'd say that it's most certainly because holosmith's overall performances are more appaeling than berserker's. The same goes for the gameplay, it certainly feel worse to play berserker than holosmith (even if it's a very subjective thing to say).

  • @Kodama.6453 said:

    @Konrad Curze.5130 said:

    @Grand Marshal.4098 said:
    Spellbreaker has 2 adrenaline bars but can only use T1 bursts. So Grandmasters like Cleansing Ire, Berserker's Power lose a lot of their potential from Core builds.

    As for Berserker, the inability to use bursts outside of Berserk Mode and when it's activated you get a tooughness penalty on top of the fact that your bursts are T1 bursts again, is a bit of an overkill for the spec in competetive. I really hope for some balance on Berserker. As in: F2 to exit Berserk Mode, no toughness penalty (if not a toughness buff, like 100 extra toughness), or lower Berserk Mode CD. Berserkers on CD are sitting ducks waiting to be killed.

    P.S. Whatever the new spec is, I wonder if they go for T1 bursts again, or if they will maintain the T2 and T3 bursts on it. What will the trade-off be hmm.

    Berserker is easily the most stupidly, horribly designed spec on the whole game

    It's essentially a warrior with only 2 trait lines 30-40% of the time

    Honestly, I don't get why some people have such a huge problem with how the berserker trait line functions.
    Holosmith goes even further than this class, the entire trait line is built on the photonforge, not a single trait in that line works without the photonforge at all.

    Yet you don't read people complaining all the time "holosmith has no trait line 50% of the time!"....

    Issue with Berserker is how it is a warrior only during Berserk. Warriors are sustained via Bursts. When Berserk is on CD and you need to build 30 adrenaline to re-activate it, you lose access to bursts. Don't get me wrong, I always play Berserker as a roamer. I find it fun. But compared to Core and SPellbreaker , it severely lacks in the sustain department, despite not dishing out huge damage. To do that, you run glass canon builds and need a firebrand with you.

    Any warrior espec should be a good solo roamer. Warriors are meant tot ake care of themselves. In any case, toughness penalty+time gated T1 bursts (Adrenal Health, Cleansing Ire, Berserker's Power get affected) greatly tones down it's potential. Savage Instinct on Berserk is all you got to survive. On top of that, awfully predictable f1 skills and subpar utilities. Holosmith utilities >>>>>>>>> Berserker utilities

    In any case, this can be fixed with little tweaks on Berserker, but what needs to be fixed rn is core.

    Make Banner Warrior for Zergs great again!!!

  • Konrad Curze.5130Konrad Curze.5130 Member ✭✭✭
    edited February 17, 2021

    @Kodama.6453 said:

    @Konrad Curze.5130 said:

    @Grand Marshal.4098 said:
    Spellbreaker has 2 adrenaline bars but can only use T1 bursts. So Grandmasters like Cleansing Ire, Berserker's Power lose a lot of their potential from Core builds.

    As for Berserker, the inability to use bursts outside of Berserk Mode and when it's activated you get a tooughness penalty on top of the fact that your bursts are T1 bursts again, is a bit of an overkill for the spec in competetive. I really hope for some balance on Berserker. As in: F2 to exit Berserk Mode, no toughness penalty (if not a toughness buff, like 100 extra toughness), or lower Berserk Mode CD. Berserkers on CD are sitting ducks waiting to be killed.

    P.S. Whatever the new spec is, I wonder if they go for T1 bursts again, or if they will maintain the T2 and T3 bursts on it. What will the trade-off be hmm.

    Berserker is easily the most stupidly, horribly designed spec on the whole game

    It's essentially a warrior with only 2 trait lines 30-40% of the time

    Honestly, I don't get why some people have such a huge problem with how the berserker trait line functions.
    Holosmith goes even further than this class, the entire trait line is built on the photonforge, not a single trait in that line works without the photonforge at all.

    Yet you don't read people complaining all the time "holosmith has no trait line 50% of the time!"....

    because thats false

    holos get stuff when in forge, and also while out of forge

    a holo out of forge is getting a pretty awesome healing from losing heat , and sword skills and all exceed utilities gain extra effects while heat is over 50.

    a warrior with berserker on cooldown is literally a core warrior with 2 trait lines instead of 3. zero effect whatsoever.

    berserker is the most ineptly made spec in the whole game by a huge margin

  • Kodama.6453Kodama.6453 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 17, 2021

    @Konrad Curze.5130 said:

    a warrior with berserker on cooldown is literally a core warrior with 2 trait lines instead of 3. zero effect whatsoever.

    False.
    Effects which you can get from the berserker trait line while berserk mode is on cooldown:

    • rage skills inflict burning
    • 7% of precision is converted into ferocity
    • +120/+240 condition damage, based on you using a torch or not
    • increased burning duration, fire aura on crit and berserker skills detonating fire auras to inflict damage and burning
  • Konrad Curze.5130Konrad Curze.5130 Member ✭✭✭
    edited February 17, 2021

    @Kodama.6453 said:

    @Konrad Curze.5130 said:

    a warrior with berserker on cooldown is literally a core warrior with 2 trait lines instead of 3. zero effect whatsoever.

    False.
    Effects which you can get from the berserker trait line while berserk mode is on cooldown:

    • rage skills inflict burning
    • 7% of precision is converted into ferocity
    • +120/+240 condition damage, based on you using a torch or not
    • increased burning duration, fire aura on crit and berserker skills detonating fire auras to inflict damage and burning

    That's picking the worst trait options on the line, giving up all utility you could possibly have, and still none of that amounts to a core line. Hell, that barely amounts to the minors. and you named 2 mutually exclusive ones LOL

    Plus the 300 toughness penalty during berserker.
    Plus losing access to original burst skills.
    Plus losing traits that care about burst levels like e.x adrenal health, cleansing ire or the most popular and ironically named berserker's power

    meanwhile for engis none of their general traits do less or stop working, they get more defense during forge not less, they can go in and out as situation demands, and the cd is lower.

    look, I wouldnt say holo is stellar design, it isnt for the reasons you already mentioned. Im not proposing holo as the pinacle of good design, quite the contrary

    but out of the 2 holo is clearly the MUCH, MUCH better designed one, berserker was designed by someone with butt instead of brains... REdesigned actually, which makes it even more pathetic and sad, its a fail within a fail, failception

  • Morokey.8534Morokey.8534 Member ✭✭
    edited February 17, 2021

    Berserker need F2 for exit and more.. For example after ''Burst of Aggression'' (3s) you can exit.. adrenaline increase from 10 to 20 or 30 (why ? because if only 1 axe skill don't crit I need to use some AA to get enough adrenaline for f1), no longer berserk duration but if you loose all adrenalin, loose berserk.. after enter berserk outgoing damage will be increased for few seconds, if you exit berserk with more than 50% of adrenaline you wont have berserk cd.. or if you hit with head butt your berserk mode will be fully recharged etc etc..

  • Lan Deathrider.5910Lan Deathrider.5910 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 17, 2021

    @Kodama.6453 said:

    @Konrad Curze.5130 said:

    a warrior with berserker on cooldown is literally a core warrior with 2 trait lines instead of 3. zero effect whatsoever.

    False.
    Effects which you can get from the berserker trait line while berserk mode is on cooldown:

    • rage skills inflict burning
    • 7% of precision is converted into ferocity
    • +120/+240 condition damage, based on you using a torch or not
    • increased burning duration, fire aura on crit and berserker skills detonating fire auras to inflict damage and burning

    You forgot:
    10% increased healing from all sources
    3 might stacks and Stability when breaking stuns.

    So, in all. out of 9 traits 6 have effects outside of Berserk Mode.

    The real issue is that so much of Warrior sustain and DPS is focused on hitting with Burst skills and while not in Berserk Mode that is locked out.

    That and a Holo can leave Photon forge after 6s if they so choose to, whereas a Berserker has to stay in Berserk Mode until the timer runs out. I think that and the -300 toughness are more fair to discuss here.

  • Dadnir.5038Dadnir.5038 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 17, 2021

    @Konrad Curze.5130 said:
    That's picking the worst trait options on the line, giving up all utility you could possibly have, and still none of that amounts to a core line. Hell, that barely amounts to the minors. and you named 2 mutually exclusive ones LOL

    To be fair, condi berserker isn't "bad" (even if it's out of flavor at the moment) and out of the 9 major traits, 6 have effects that do not need to use berserk mode.

    • Last blaze: add burning to rage skills
    • Blood reaction: convert 7% precision into ferocity
    • Heat the soul: increased condition damage.
    • Dead or alive: 10% increase incoming healing
    • King of fire: 10% increase burn duration. Gain fire aura on crit.
    • Eternal champion: gain stab and might when breaking stun.

    I mean, it could be worse, to continue to take holosmith as an example, none of it's traits have any effect without using photon forge.

  • Konrad Curze.5130Konrad Curze.5130 Member ✭✭✭
    edited February 17, 2021

    fine, I'll mend my statement

    a berserker is not a core warrior with 2 trait lines when out of berserker

    a berserker is a core warrior with 2 trait lines when out of berserker, plus a couple incredibly underwhelming extra effects that amount to 10% of a trait line, 15% being very generous, and only if you consistently pick the worst of the options presented for each tier. all of this, on top of the hefty trade offs and penalties that berserker already apply, of course

    @Dadnir.5038 said:
    I mean, it could be worse, to continue to take holosmith as an example, none of it's traits have any effect without using photon forge.

    I mean, the discussion isnt explicitly centered around traits.

    a holosmith, by design, is still a holosmith when out of forge, all the extras they gain passively apply and make a definite difference vs a core engi, if your out of forge your still getting the heat healing and the extra effects from sword ,exceed and toolbelts skills, or the damage when dodging if traited, all of those say YEAH IM STILL A HOLOSMITH.

    berserker doesnt interact with warrior in any way, shape or form outside of berserker mode.

    What defines a berserker out of BM are all the things that it misses, not the ones that it gains. if you guys want to make a point that it gets +120 condi or 10% more healing ok, but that does not say YEAH IM STILL A BERSERKER, thats pathetic

  • Lan Deathrider.5910Lan Deathrider.5910 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 17, 2021

    @Konrad Curze.5130 said:
    fine, I'll mend my statement

    a berserker is not a core warrior with 2 trait lines when out of berserker

    a berserker is a core warrior with 2 trait lines when out of berserker, plus a couple incredibly underwhelming extra effects that amount to 10% of a trait line, 15% being very generous, and only if you consistently pick the worst of the options presented for each tier

    10% increased healing from all sources is a pretty nice bonus.
    An extra 5%-10% extra critical damage is a pretty nice bonus.
    ~5-10% more condition damage is a pretty nice bonus.
    Burning on rage skills is extra damage and cover conditions. Cover conditions are pretty important.
    Fire aura is extra might. Might is extra sustain and DPS for warriors.

    All of those are the kind of traits that other specs would take within a traitline.

    The problem with Berserker is that access to core mechanic traits are locked into Berserk Mode, which we do not have the ability to end on our own, nor are we able to enter it without full adrenaline.

    Berserker would greatly benefit from the following:

    F1: Enter Berserk Mode. While in Berserk Mode becomes the Primal Burst of the equipped weapon.
    F2: Strikes around the Berserker, gains 1 Strike of adrenaline per foe struck (10 total strikes if you hit 5 people), and gains 1 stack of might per foe struck. If you are in Berserk Mode this skill causes you to exit Berserk Mode. Does not cost adrenaline, does not count towards burst related traits, 6s CD. This skill is available while in or out of Berserk Mode.

    Berserk Mode can be entered at 0, 10, 20, or 30 adrenaline. Base duration is 12s, with an extra 6s of duration gained per 10 adrenaline spent. Adrenaline spent triggers burst related traits as normal per adrenaline spent, but if entered with 0 adrenaline these traits are not triggered. The base CD of Berserk Mode is unchanged.

  • Konrad Curze.5130Konrad Curze.5130 Member ✭✭✭
    edited February 17, 2021

    @Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

    @Konrad Curze.5130 said:
    fine, I'll mend my statement

    a berserker is not a core warrior with 2 trait lines when out of berserker

    a berserker is a core warrior with 2 trait lines when out of berserker, plus a couple incredibly underwhelming extra effects that amount to 10% of a trait line, 15% being very generous, and only if you consistently pick the worst of the options presented for each tier

    10% increased healing from all sources is a pretty nice bonus.
    An extra 5%-10% extra critical damage is a pretty nice bonus.
    ~5-10% more condition damage is a pretty nice bonus.
    Burning on rage skills is extra damage and cover conditions. Cover conditions are pretty important.
    Fire aura is extra might. Might is extra sustain and DPS for warriors.

    All of those are the kind of traits that other specs would take within a traitline.

    The problem with Berserker is that access to core mechanic traits are locked into Berserk Mode, which we do not have the ability to end on our own, nor are we able to enter it without full Adrenaline.

    Berserker would greatly benefit from the following:

    F1: Enter Berserk Mode. While in Berserk Mode becomes the Primal Burst of the equipped weapon.
    F2: Strikes around the Berserker, gains 1 Strike of adrenaline per foe struck (10 total strikes if you hit 5 people), and gains 1 stack of might per foe struck. If you are in Berserk Mode this skill causes you o exit Berserk Mode. Does not cost adrenaline, does not count towards burst related traits, 6s CD. This skill is available while in or out of Berserk Mode.

    Berserk Mode can be entered at 0, 10, 20, or 30 Adrenaline. Base duration is 12s, with an extra 6s of duration gained per 10 Adrenaline spent. Adrenaline spent triggers burst related traits as normal per adrenaline spent, but if entered with 0 adrenaline these traits are not triggered. The base CD of Berserk Mode is unchanged.

    holosmith skills and weapon get increased effects when you are above a certain heat threshold
    berserker skills increase berserker duration

    holosmith skills(and weapon, and toolbelts) gain effects when you are out of forge, they are designed to be enhanced when out of holo. And you dont have to trait for this, it comes baseline.

    berserker skills lose effects when you are out of berserker, increased berserker duration when not in berserker does nothing at all. berserker skills are diminished when out of berserker, they do less

    just a cursory look at the most basic level of the design of each spec tell us all we need to know to see which spec took some brainpower to make and which one was made by the dev's 4 year old son while daddy was procrastinating, probably playing FFXIV

  • @Konrad Curze.5130 said:

    @Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

    @Konrad Curze.5130 said:
    fine, I'll mend my statement

    a berserker is not a core warrior with 2 trait lines when out of berserker

    a berserker is a core warrior with 2 trait lines when out of berserker, plus a couple incredibly underwhelming extra effects that amount to 10% of a trait line, 15% being very generous, and only if you consistently pick the worst of the options presented for each tier

    10% increased healing from all sources is a pretty nice bonus.
    An extra 5%-10% extra critical damage is a pretty nice bonus.
    ~5-10% more condition damage is a pretty nice bonus.
    Burning on rage skills is extra damage and cover conditions. Cover conditions are pretty important.
    Fire aura is extra might. Might is extra sustain and DPS for warriors.

    All of those are the kind of traits that other specs would take within a traitline.

    The problem with Berserker is that access to core mechanic traits are locked into Berserk Mode, which we do not have the ability to end on our own, nor are we able to enter it without full Adrenaline.

    Berserker would greatly benefit from the following:

    F1: Enter Berserk Mode. While in Berserk Mode becomes the Primal Burst of the equipped weapon.
    F2: Strikes around the Berserker, gains 1 Strike of adrenaline per foe struck (10 total strikes if you hit 5 people), and gains 1 stack of might per foe struck. If you are in Berserk Mode this skill causes you o exit Berserk Mode. Does not cost adrenaline, does not count towards burst related traits, 6s CD. This skill is available while in or out of Berserk Mode.

    Berserk Mode can be entered at 0, 10, 20, or 30 Adrenaline. Base duration is 12s, with an extra 6s of duration gained per 10 Adrenaline spent. Adrenaline spent triggers burst related traits as normal per adrenaline spent, but if entered with 0 adrenaline these traits are not triggered. The base CD of Berserk Mode is unchanged.

    holosmith skills and weapon get increased effects when you are above a certain heat threshold
    berserker skills increase berserker duration

    holosmith skills(and weapon, and toolbelts) gain effects when you are out of forge, they are designed to be enhanced when out of holo. And you dont have to trait for this, it comes baseline.

    berserker skills lose effects when you are out of berserker, increased berserker duration when not in berserker does nothing at all. berserker skills are diminished when out of berserker, they do less

    just a cursory look at the most basic level of the design of each spec tell us all we need to know to see which spec took some brainpower to make and which one was made by the dev's 4 year old son while daddy was procrastinating, probably playing FFXIV

    Sounds like you should be playing Holo of FF14 then. Neither would be bad choices.

    That said you would be better served talking about how to make Berserker function better at a higher level in regards to it's own mechanics rather than be QQing about it in relation to a different espec from another class.

  • Konrad Curze.5130Konrad Curze.5130 Member ✭✭✭
    edited February 17, 2021

    @Lan Deathrider.5910 said:
    Sounds like you should be playing Holo of FF14 then. Neither would be bad choices.

    nah, despite what it may look like Im not too keen of holo either, its just the perfect class to draw comparisons to berserker from a design and mechanical PoV._

    I already play firebrand and renegade, why would I settle for anything less than vast overpoweredness if Anet lets me pick it free of any cost whatsoever. specs that are simply better than the rest for no reason, they just are.

    @Lan Deathrider.5910 said:
    That said you would be better served talking about how to make Berserker function better at a higher level in regards to it's own mechanics rather than be QQing about it in relation to a different espec from another class.

    yeah, because that has worked wonders for the hundreds if not thousands of people that have been talking about how to make Berserker function better at a higher level for years and years. because you know, they have not been totally, completly, utterly neglected and ignored all this time, right

    I mean, berserker did get a rework long ago, which in many ways left it in a more ackward (if not downright worse) spot. and since that radio silence.

    and you still have faith that constructive criticism does anything? man, I admire your tenacity

  • @Konrad Curze.5130 said:

    @Lan Deathrider.5910 said:
    Sounds like you should be playing Holo of FF14 then. Neither would be bad choices.

    nah, despite what it may look like Im not too keen of holo either, its just the perfect class to draw comparisons to berserker from a design and mechanical PoV._

    I already play firebrand and renegade, why would I settle for anything less than vast overpoweredness if Anet lets me pick it free of any cost whatsoever. specs that are simply better than the rest for no reason, they just are.

    @Lan Deathrider.5910 said:
    That said you would be better served talking about how to make Berserker function better at a higher level in regards to it's own mechanics rather than be QQing about it in relation to a different espec from another class.

    yeah, because that has worked wonders for the hundreds if not thousands of people that have been talking about how to make Berserker function better at a higher level for years and years. because you know, they have not been totally, completly, utterly neglected and ignored all this time, right

    I mean, berserker did get a rework long ago, which in many ways left it in a more ackward (if not downright worse) spot. and since that radio silence.

    and you still have faith that constructive criticism does anything? man, I admire your tenacity

    Tenacious like a badger.

    That said Anet does respond in their own time. I just expect no serious changes until pre EoD patch.

  • Shaogin.2679Shaogin.2679 Member ✭✭✭

    @Trianox.3486 said:
    People seem stuck with the whole "trade-off" part, but you can also see it as a change in terms of game play.
    Necro, reaper and scourge are great examples of that. They quite differently from one another.

    Bottom line, all those three play very differently. You could play them similarly, more or less, but they have inherent differences. Here is your trade-off, or change.
    Unfortunately, the term "trade-off" misleads into thinking about balance... while that is a whole different issue.
    Of course, we could argue about power level, but that's a different story. One might argue Repear shroud or Scourge shades or whatever to be better or worse... but it depends on circumstances... and individual skills and trait lines then, and their synergies with core trait lines...!

    The balance discussion isn't about whether those trade-off are sufficiant in terms of change of mechanics. It should be, in my opinion, about the disporportionate strength between "3 core trait lines" VS "1 elite + 2 core trait lines". Is it outof tune completely or not? (Then of course, we have to account that not every single combination of traits is optimal for DPS or survivability. "Everything" more or less work for open world, but not everything is enjoyable or effective, regardless of trait lines, e-specs, and individual traits you took or not.)

    The issue is that some classes were placed into this rule set of "there must be a trade off", while other classes skate on by nearly un-touched by this whole trade-off thing Anet was shooting for at one point. For instance, look at the Druid. For some reason it is the only support in the entire game so far that had its damaged nerfed (the pets) due to being a support spec. Firebrand, Scourge, Tempest, Scrapper, and Renegade are all capable of perfectly viable PvE DPS builds despite also being support specs.

    Also, lets stop pretending things like Guardian virtue changes between the specs are a trade off. That is extremely laughable. DH and FB virtues/tomes are in no way weaker than Guardian virtues, they are simply different.

    What would be nice is if Anet was consistent across the board with this. Either all Elite Specs get a legit trade off, or they don't. This business of handing out heavy nerfs to some classes in the name of E-Spec Trade Offs without doing the same for others is really kitten.

    Doc Von Doom

  • Kodama.6453Kodama.6453 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 17, 2021

    @Shaogin.2679 said:

    The issue is that some classes were placed into this rule set of "there must be a trade off", while other classes skate on by nearly un-touched by this whole trade-off thing Anet was shooting for at one point. For instance, look at the Druid. For some reason it is the only support in the entire game so far that had its damaged nerfed (the pets) due to being a support spec. Firebrand, Scourge, Tempest, Scrapper, and Renegade are all capable of perfectly viable PvE DPS builds despite also being support specs.

    I have to point out once again: Scrapper is NOT a support spec by design!!

    Scrapper is currently used as a support in environments like WvW, but this is because of other reasons. They are used because their gyros are giving some supportive qualities and engineer in general lacks a third support specialization (we just have inventions + alchemy).

    If you are looking into scrapper's design closely, you see that the spec really doesn't provide that much support. In the trait line, the only supportive qualities found are some super speed share. But the very big majority of scrapper traits are absolutely selfish in nature.
    Even all 3 grandmaster traits are just giving benefits to the scrapper themselves and nothing for allies:

    • more barrier and reduced condition damage taken by the scrapper
    • stuns and dazes grant the scrapper stability and super speed
    • gain quickness based on your might and extra power while you have quickness

    Another evidence is that the used support scrapper build has an entirely dead grandmaster minor trait. The grandmaster minor is converting 15% of your strike damage into barrier, but this support build doesn't deal any damage at all! It is camping the med kit all day to keep healing and doesn't even invest any stats in power!

    Want more? The weapon. Scrapper's hammer has emphasis on damage, CC and personal defense. Support elite specs have supportive weapons which are either granting boons to allies or healing them. Scrapper's hammer does neither.

    Scrapper, as repeatedly stated by Anet themselves, is supposed to be a bruiser spec! Which is defined by having some damage, while having a heavy focus on CC and durability. Scrapper is not a support spec like firebrand, scourge, tempest or druid. It is a bruiser, like spellbreaker or daredevil.

  • Shaogin.2679Shaogin.2679 Member ✭✭✭

    @Kodama.6453 said:

    @Shaogin.2679 said:

    The issue is that some classes were placed into this rule set of "there must be a trade off", while other classes skate on by nearly un-touched by this whole trade-off thing Anet was shooting for at one point. For instance, look at the Druid. For some reason it is the only support in the entire game so far that had its damaged nerfed (the pets) due to being a support spec. Firebrand, Scourge, Tempest, Scrapper, and Renegade are all capable of perfectly viable PvE DPS builds despite also being support specs.

    I have to point out once again: Scrapper is NOT a support spec by design!!

    Scrapper is currently used as a support in environments like WvW, but this is because of other reasons. They are used because their gyros are giving some supportive qualities and engineer in general lacks a third support specialization (we just have inventions + alchemy).

    If you are looking into scrapper's design closely, you see that the spec really doesn't provide that much support. In the trait line, the only supportive qualities found are some super speed share. But the very big majority of scrapper traits are absolutely selfish in nature.
    Even all 3 grandmaster traits are just giving benefits to the scrapper themselves and nothing for allies:

    • more barrier and reduced condition damage taken by the scrapper
    • stuns and dazes grant the scrapper stability and super speed
    • gain quickness based on your might and extra power while you have quickness

    Another evidence is that the used support scrapper build has an entirely dead grandmaster minor trait. The grandmaster minor is converting 15% of your strike damage into barrier, but this support build doesn't deal any damage at all! It is camping the med kit all day to keep healing and doesn't even invest any stats in power!

    Want more? The weapon. Scrapper's hammer has emphasis on damage, CC and personal defense. Support elite specs have supportive weapons which are either granting boons to allies or healing them. Scrapper's hammer does neither.

    Scrapper, as repeatedly stated by Anet themselves, is supposed to be a bruiser spec! Which is defined by having some damage, while having a heavy focus on CC and durability. Scrapper is not a support spec like firebrand, scourge, tempest or druid. It is a bruiser, like spellbreaker or daredevil.

    I listed it because it is widely used as a support spec and performs incredibly well in the role. Also, even if you want to deny it as a support spec, there is no point in delving into an off topic rant about it here, since it neither disproves my point nor does it have anything to do with this thread.

    Doc Von Doom

  • Kodama.6453Kodama.6453 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 18, 2021

    @Shaogin.2679 said:

    I listed it because it is widely used as a support spec and performs incredibly well in the role. Also, even if you want to deny it as a support spec, there is no point in delving into an off topic rant about it here, since it neither disproves my point nor does it have anything to do with this thread.

    I agree with your general point, it was always weird for me that druid is basically hard locked into a healer support role while other support elite specs have no such restrictions.

    One of my major complaints about firebrands in the past has been that they are just too versatile. It feels like they can do basically everything, since their elite spec mechanic just gives them so many different tools.

    But I read repeatedly that people claim scrapper to be a support elite spec, which is not true. So it is not supporting your argument here. Scrapper has decent dps builds, because it is supposed to have these as as bruiser spec. Spellbreaker and Daredevil also get to have their viable dps builds in comparison.

    So whenever this misconception pops up, I try to fight it. Especially since I wish for engineer to get a proper support elite spec in the future.

  • @Kodama.6453 said:

    @Shaogin.2679 said:

    I listed it because it is widely used as a support spec and performs incredibly well in the role. Also, even if you want to deny it as a support spec, there is no point in delving into an off topic rant about it here, since it neither disproves my point nor does it have anything to do with this thread.

    I agree with your general point, it was always weird for me that druid is basically hard locked into a healer support role while other support elite specs have no such restrictions.

    They can run condi pretty well.

    One of my major complaints about firebrands in the past has been that they are just too versatile. It feels like they can do basically everything, since their elite spec mechanic just gives them so many different tools.

    Just means that Firebrands don't have a proper tradeoff now doesn't it? Honestly Imbued Haste should have a stat penalty on it. Ditto for Laser's Edge for Holo.

  • Kodama.6453Kodama.6453 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Lan Deathrider.5910 said:
    They can run condi pretty well.

    As far as I know, ancient seeds is literally the only source of damaging conditions that gets added by druid and it comes with a condition damage penalty for your pet. I think people are running druid in these builds because of their supportive features to self sustain, not because it really adds so much towards a condition damage playstyle.
    If you really seek to improve your ability to deal damage through conditions, then running soulbeast is better.

    Meanwhile other support elite specs are directly improving the condition playstyle for their classes. Firebrand adds alot of burning to guardian. Scourge adds alot of boon corrupt, torment, burning...

    So my point is: druid by itself is basically entirely supportive. Meanwhile other support specs have some condition damage mixed in to run as an alternative build.

    Just means that Firebrands don't have a proper tradeoff now doesn't it? Honestly Imbued Haste should have a stat penalty on it. Ditto for Laser's Edge for Holo.

    Can't say I agree with that conclusion for holosmith. The premise of this discussion was that some specs are allowed to go for several gameplay niches while druid is more restricted. Looking at holosmith, it basically really is just played in one niche: dps. Which is entirely on purpose, considering that holosmith is supposed to be engineers prime dps spec.

  • The Boz.2038The Boz.2038 Member ✭✭✭
    edited February 18, 2021

    @Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

    Berserker would greatly benefit from the following:

    F1: Enter Berserk Mode. While in Berserk Mode becomes the Primal Burst of the equipped weapon.
    F2: Strikes around the Berserker, gains 1 Strike of adrenaline per foe struck (10 total strikes if you hit 5 people), and gains 1 stack of might per foe struck. If you are in Berserk Mode this skill causes you to exit Berserk Mode. Does not cost adrenaline, does not count towards burst related traits, 6s CD. This skill is available while in or out of Berserk Mode.

    Berserk Mode can be entered at 0, 10, 20, or 30 adrenaline. Base duration is 12s, with an extra 6s of duration gained per 10 adrenaline spent. Adrenaline spent triggers burst related traits as normal per adrenaline spent, but if entered with 0 adrenaline these traits are not triggered. The base CD of Berserk Mode is unchanged.

    I kinda like where you're going with this, but I'd go a tiny step further.
    Non-berserking and berserk retains three adrenaline bars.
    F1: Spend all adrenaline. Enter berserk for 6 seconds, plus 6 seconds per adrenaline bar spent. This, at 3 bars, lasts longer than the current one, but at the shortest allows for a quick pop-in, and execution of one burst (two with certain skills and traits).
    F1 (in berserk): Execute the rage burst. All rage bursts are T1, spend one bar. Otherwise unchanged.
    F2 (in berserk only): Ends berserk instantly, perform a medium (comparable to GS1-1) strike around you, expend all adrenaline, gain health (my brane farted, wrote in might here originally, always meant health, as it is to be a defensive or resource-saving measure) based on adrenaline spent.
    F3 (in berserk only): Increases current berserk by 5 seconds, regains ~33 Endurance, spends one bar of adrenaline. 10s cooldown.
    This would allow the warrior more control over their berserk duration. They could pop in and out based more on their build, and less on the clunky, slow-to-build, locked-in style they have right now.

  • Dadnir.5038Dadnir.5038 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @The Boz.2038 said:

    @Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

    Berserker would greatly benefit from the following:

    F1: Enter Berserk Mode. While in Berserk Mode becomes the Primal Burst of the equipped weapon.
    F2: Strikes around the Berserker, gains 1 Strike of adrenaline per foe struck (10 total strikes if you hit 5 people), and gains 1 stack of might per foe struck. If you are in Berserk Mode this skill causes you to exit Berserk Mode. Does not cost adrenaline, does not count towards burst related traits, 6s CD. This skill is available while in or out of Berserk Mode.

    Berserk Mode can be entered at 0, 10, 20, or 30 adrenaline. Base duration is 12s, with an extra 6s of duration gained per 10 adrenaline spent. Adrenaline spent triggers burst related traits as normal per adrenaline spent, but if entered with 0 adrenaline these traits are not triggered. The base CD of Berserk Mode is unchanged.

    I kinda like where you're going with this, but I'd go a tiny step further.
    Non-berserking and berserk retains three adrenaline bars.
    F1: Spend all adrenaline. Enter berserk for 6 seconds, plus 6 seconds per adrenaline bar spent. This, at 3 bars, lasts longer than the current one, but at the shortest allows for a quick pop-in, and execution of one burst (two with certain skills and traits).
    F1 (in berserk): Execute the rage burst. All rage bursts are T1, spend one bar. Otherwise unchanged.
    F2 (in berserk only): Ends berserk instantly, perform a medium (comparable to GS1-1) strike around you, expend all adrenaline, gain might based on adrenaline spent.
    F3 (in berserk only): Increases current berserk by 5 seconds, regains ~33 Endurance, spends one bar of adrenaline. 10s cooldown.
    This would allow the warrior more control over their berserk duration. They could pop in and out based more on their build, and less on the clunky, slow-to-build, locked-in style they have right now.

    Why not just have berserk mode 15s CD just start when you use berserk mode. That would hopefully save the traits that depend on adrenaline use more faithfully than anything else.

  • @Dadnir.5038 said:

    @The Boz.2038 said:

    @Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

    Berserker would greatly benefit from the following:

    F1: Enter Berserk Mode. While in Berserk Mode becomes the Primal Burst of the equipped weapon.
    F2: Strikes around the Berserker, gains 1 Strike of adrenaline per foe struck (10 total strikes if you hit 5 people), and gains 1 stack of might per foe struck. If you are in Berserk Mode this skill causes you to exit Berserk Mode. Does not cost adrenaline, does not count towards burst related traits, 6s CD. This skill is available while in or out of Berserk Mode.

    Berserk Mode can be entered at 0, 10, 20, or 30 adrenaline. Base duration is 12s, with an extra 6s of duration gained per 10 adrenaline spent. Adrenaline spent triggers burst related traits as normal per adrenaline spent, but if entered with 0 adrenaline these traits are not triggered. The base CD of Berserk Mode is unchanged.

    I kinda like where you're going with this, but I'd go a tiny step further.
    Non-berserking and berserk retains three adrenaline bars.
    F1: Spend all adrenaline. Enter berserk for 6 seconds, plus 6 seconds per adrenaline bar spent. This, at 3 bars, lasts longer than the current one, but at the shortest allows for a quick pop-in, and execution of one burst (two with certain skills and traits).
    F1 (in berserk): Execute the rage burst. All rage bursts are T1, spend one bar. Otherwise unchanged.
    F2 (in berserk only): Ends berserk instantly, perform a medium (comparable to GS1-1) strike around you, expend all adrenaline, gain might based on adrenaline spent.
    F3 (in berserk only): Increases current berserk by 5 seconds, regains ~33 Endurance, spends one bar of adrenaline. 10s cooldown.
    This would allow the warrior more control over their berserk duration. They could pop in and out based more on their build, and less on the clunky, slow-to-build, locked-in style they have right now.

    Why not just have berserk mode 15s CD just start when you use berserk mode. That would hopefully save the traits that depend on adrenaline use more faithfully than anything else.

    That would be nice as well to be honest but I don't think the warriors really want a means to exit directly more than anything related to CD.

  • Fueki.4753Fueki.4753 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Kodama.6453 said:
    Looking at holosmith, it basically really is just played in one niche: dps. Which is entirely on purpose, considering that holosmith is supposed to be engineers prime dps spec.

    Berserker is Warrior's "prime DPS spec", yet has a stat reduction during Berserk.
    Holosmith should be handled similarly while being in Photon Forge or while cooling down.

  • I'm just of the opinion that if some especs get negative stats, then they all should.

  • Kodama.6453Kodama.6453 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Fueki.4753 said:

    @Kodama.6453 said:
    Looking at holosmith, it basically really is just played in one niche: dps. Which is entirely on purpose, considering that holosmith is supposed to be engineers prime dps spec.

    Berserker is Warrior's "prime DPS spec", yet has a stat reduction during Berserk.
    Holosmith should be handled similarly while being in Photon Forge or while cooling down.

    I don't think that it necessarily needs to have a stat penalty just because berserker has one.
    They are building on different classes with different advantages and disadvantages. Berserker, as a warrior elite spec, naturally has more "base defense" than holosmith as an engineer elite spec.

    Core warrior already has the stat advantage, since it is the class with the highest health tier and highest armor class in the game. It is the class with the highest inherent defensive stats.
    Core warrior has the ability to weapon swap, allowing it to take 2 defensive weapons in the offhand. Core engineer doesn't have the ability to weapon swap, this class can just slot in a shield in the offhand as a defensive option.

    Both classes can get additional defense by investing utility slots and traits, of course.
    My point is: I think berserker got this stat penalty to move it more towards the direction of a glass cannon. It inherently already has more defense and this penalty is supposed to remove some of these stat advantages which come naturally by being a warrior.

    Berserker then has the opportunity to buy these defenses back in the trait system, but that requires investment that doesn't go towards more damage.

  • Kodama.6453Kodama.6453 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Lan Deathrider.5910 said:
    I'm just of the opinion that if some especs get negative stats, then they all should.

    I don't think this should necessarily be a thing.
    Berserker (in my opinion) gets the stat penalty, because it is built upon a naturally tanky class (warrior has both the highest health tier and highest armor class in the game), while the elite spec is supposed to function as a glass cannon.

    Taking daredevil as an example, which stat penalty would you want to install in this class?
    Vitality/toughness? Counter-intuitive, since the spec is supposed to be a bruiser playstyle for thief. They are supposed to be more resilient. And thief already is in the lowest vitality tier...
    Power? Bruisers are supposed to deal some damage, even if not as much as dedicated dps elite specs.
    And every other stat (healing power/expertise/concentration/precision/ferocity) has a baseline of 0 and therefore the potential to hold no penalty at all.

  • Fueki.4753Fueki.4753 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 19, 2021

    @Kodama.6453 said:
    I don't think that it necessarily needs to have a stat penalty just because berserker has one.
    They are building on different classes with different advantages and disadvantages. Berserker, as a warrior elite spec, naturally has more "base defense" than holosmith as an engineer elite spec.

    And Holosmith currently outperforms Berserker in every way possible, be it sustain, defense or damage.

    Core warrior already has the stat advantage, since it is the class with the highest health tier and highest armor class in the game. It is the class with the highest inherent defensive stats.

    Yet these no longer mean anything since the power creep that started with HoT.

    Core warrior has the ability to weapon swap, allowing it to take 2 defensive weapons in the offhand. Core engineer doesn't have the ability to weapon swap, this class can just slot in a shield in the offhand as a defensive option.

    Kits effectively are weapon Swaps, Holoforge is effectively a weapon swap+ that also improves utilities and sword.

    My point is: I think berserker got this stat penalty to move it more towards the direction of a glass cannon. It inherently already has more defense and this penalty is supposed to remove some of these stat advantages which come naturally by being a warrior.

    For the over-performance in damage, Holosmith ought to be directed towards glass cannon as well.
    Yet it gets bonus sustain in addition to said overperforming damage.

    Berserker then has the opportunity to buy these defenses back in the trait system, but that requires investment that doesn't go towards more damage.

    And yet these defense have been neutered or turning into 300s placeholders in PvP, where they mattered most, drastically reducing their usefulness.
    It ought to be obvious that the Toughness reduction simply isn't justified, especially compared to Holosmith.

  • Dadnir.5038Dadnir.5038 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Lan Deathrider.5910 said:
    I'm just of the opinion that if some especs get negative stats, then they all should.

    I'd say it's appropriate when if it fit the flavor and it there is a gain that's worth the loss coming along.

    Let's not make it like the berserker don't get 300 condition damage and 300 power at the cost of 300 toughness. ANet want the flavor of the beserker to be one that sacrifice it's defense for high amount of offense and that's understandable.

    The same goes for scrapper (albeit it's the trad feel a bit more arguable) who chose to sacrifice vitality for temporary hit points. Technically the scrapper sacrifice 180 vitality (or roughly 1800 hit point) for the opportunity to build up barrier out of power damage.

    I mean, those traits who come with stat loss also come with great advantage, they aren't trade-off for advantage that already exist.

  • @Kodama.6453 said:

    @Lan Deathrider.5910 said:
    I'm just of the opinion that if some especs get negative stats, then they all should.

    I don't think this should necessarily be a thing.
    Berserker (in my opinion) gets the stat penalty, because it is built upon a naturally tanky class (warrior has both the highest health tier and highest armor class in the game), while the elite spec is supposed to function as a glass cannon.

    Taking daredevil as an example, which stat penalty would you want to install in this class?
    Vitality/toughness? Counter-intuitive, since the spec is supposed to be a bruiser playstyle for thief. They are supposed to be more resilient. And thief already is in the lowest vitality tier...
    Power? Bruisers are supposed to deal some damage, even if not as much as dedicated dps elite specs.
    And every other stat (healing power/expertise/concentration/precision/ferocity) has a baseline of 0 and therefore the potential to hold no penalty at all.

    Welcome to the crux of my point Kodama. There shouldn't be stat penalties at all.

  • @Dadnir.5038 said:

    @Lan Deathrider.5910 said:
    I'm just of the opinion that if some especs get negative stats, then they all should.

    I'd say it's appropriate when if it fit the flavor and it there is a gain that's worth the loss coming along.

    Let's not make it like the berserker don't get 300 condition damage and 300 power at the cost of 300 toughness. ANet want the flavor of the beserker to be one that sacrifice it's defense for high amount of offense and that's understandable.

    The same goes for scrapper (albeit it's the trad feel a bit more arguable) who chose to sacrifice vitality for temporary hit points. Technically the scrapper sacrifice 180 vitality (or roughly 1800 hit point) for the opportunity to build up barrier out of power damage.

    I mean, those traits who come with stat loss also come with great advantage, they aren't trade-off for advantage that already exist.

    And FB doesn't get 450 stats from imbued haste but no stat lose? Or Soulbeast getting 200-300 stats while merged with no negatives, which would certainly be thematic for the pet archetypes would they not? Not to mention all the stat gain from Beast mastery that Soulbeast can leverage.

    There shouldn't be stat penalties on the especs, and certainly not on only a few.

  • Dadnir.5038Dadnir.5038 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Lan Deathrider.5910 said:
    And FB doesn't get 450 stats from imbued haste but no stat lose? Or Soulbeast getting 200-300 stats while merged with no negatives, which would certainly be thematic for the pet archetypes would they not? Not to mention all the stat gain from Beast mastery that Soulbeast can leverage.

    There shouldn't be stat penalties on the especs, and certainly not on only a few.

    FB have no excuse (except maybe being favored by the gods ;) ) but Soulbeast lose the support of it's pet when merged. Beside, for Soulbeast it's part of it's mechanism, not a trait, you could say that it's the equivalent of the 15% increased attack speed of the berserker while in berserk mode.

  • Jski.6180Jski.6180 Member ✭✭✭✭

    FB should have the same armor class as an mages. I am all for making support classes super glass.

    I can see classes losing hp but are healed better kind of like scraper but with out dmg to barrier self healing though a class roll of dmg or support is not good balancing.

    See ELE forms and you will get my views.

  • draxynnic.3719draxynnic.3719 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Shaogin.2679 said:

    @Trianox.3486 said:
    People seem stuck with the whole "trade-off" part, but you can also see it as a change in terms of game play.
    Necro, reaper and scourge are great examples of that. They quite differently from one another.

    Bottom line, all those three play very differently. You could play them similarly, more or less, but they have inherent differences. Here is your trade-off, or change.
    Unfortunately, the term "trade-off" misleads into thinking about balance... while that is a whole different issue.
    Of course, we could argue about power level, but that's a different story. One might argue Repear shroud or Scourge shades or whatever to be better or worse... but it depends on circumstances... and individual skills and trait lines then, and their synergies with core trait lines...!

    The balance discussion isn't about whether those trade-off are sufficiant in terms of change of mechanics. It should be, in my opinion, about the disporportionate strength between "3 core trait lines" VS "1 elite + 2 core trait lines". Is it outof tune completely or not? (Then of course, we have to account that not every single combination of traits is optimal for DPS or survivability. "Everything" more or less work for open world, but not everything is enjoyable or effective, regardless of trait lines, e-specs, and individual traits you took or not.)

    The issue is that some classes were placed into this rule set of "there must be a trade off", while other classes skate on by nearly un-touched by this whole trade-off thing Anet was shooting for at one point. For instance, look at the Druid. For some reason it is the only support in the entire game so far that had its damaged nerfed (the pets) due to being a support spec. Firebrand, Scourge, Tempest, Scrapper, and Renegade are all capable of perfectly viable PvE DPS builds despite also being support specs.

    Also, lets stop pretending things like Guardian virtue changes between the specs are a trade off. That is extremely laughable. DH and FB virtues/tomes are in no way weaker than Guardian virtues, they are simply different.

    What would be nice is if Anet was consistent across the board with this. Either all Elite Specs get a legit trade off, or they don't. This business of handing out heavy nerfs to some classes in the name of E-Spec Trade Offs without doing the same for others is really kitten.

    I think the problem in the case of druid is that with other supports, you had a choice of speccing for DPS or support. Ranger pets, however, always have the same stats, so you could go full support or survivability with a druid while still having good DPS out of the pet.

    With regard to Guardians, for all people point at the virtues, Guardians are still the profession where you see core builds most often, so clearly it does have enough of a tradeoff, even if it's coming more from having to give up on a core traitline than the virtues. Which, IMO, is a better way to do tradeoffs in general - make the core traitlines good enough that they do represent a real tradeoff.

  • @draxynnic.3719 said:

    @Shaogin.2679 said:

    @Trianox.3486 said:
    People seem stuck with the whole "trade-off" part, but you can also see it as a change in terms of game play.
    Necro, reaper and scourge are great examples of that. They quite differently from one another.

    Bottom line, all those three play very differently. You could play them similarly, more or less, but they have inherent differences. Here is your trade-off, or change.
    Unfortunately, the term "trade-off" misleads into thinking about balance... while that is a whole different issue.
    Of course, we could argue about power level, but that's a different story. One might argue Repear shroud or Scourge shades or whatever to be better or worse... but it depends on circumstances... and individual skills and trait lines then, and their synergies with core trait lines...!

    The balance discussion isn't about whether those trade-off are sufficiant in terms of change of mechanics. It should be, in my opinion, about the disporportionate strength between "3 core trait lines" VS "1 elite + 2 core trait lines". Is it outof tune completely or not? (Then of course, we have to account that not every single combination of traits is optimal for DPS or survivability. "Everything" more or less work for open world, but not everything is enjoyable or effective, regardless of trait lines, e-specs, and individual traits you took or not.)

    The issue is that some classes were placed into this rule set of "there must be a trade off", while other classes skate on by nearly un-touched by this whole trade-off thing Anet was shooting for at one point. For instance, look at the Druid. For some reason it is the only support in the entire game so far that had its damaged nerfed (the pets) due to being a support spec. Firebrand, Scourge, Tempest, Scrapper, and Renegade are all capable of perfectly viable PvE DPS builds despite also being support specs.

    Also, lets stop pretending things like Guardian virtue changes between the specs are a trade off. That is extremely laughable. DH and FB virtues/tomes are in no way weaker than Guardian virtues, they are simply different.

    What would be nice is if Anet was consistent across the board with this. Either all Elite Specs get a legit trade off, or they don't. This business of handing out heavy nerfs to some classes in the name of E-Spec Trade Offs without doing the same for others is really kitten.

    I think the problem in the case of druid is that with other supports, you had a choice of speccing for DPS or support. Ranger pets, however, always have the same stats, so you could go full support or survivability with a druid while still having good DPS out of the pet.

    With regard to Guardians, for all people point at the virtues, Guardians are still the profession where you see core builds most often, so clearly it does have enough of a tradeoff, even if it's coming more from having to give up on a core traitline than the virtues. Which, IMO, is a better way to do tradeoffs in general - make the core traitlines good enough that they do represent a real tradeoff.

    Frankly people over value the instant cast nature of virtues. I say this and I enjoy my charrdian, particularly as a burn DH in WvW.

    Both especs are straight upgrades as far as profession mechanics go, you just see lots of core guards because unlike some classes it has a viable builds still as core.

  • @Dadnir.5038 said:

    @Lan Deathrider.5910 said:
    And FB doesn't get 450 stats from imbued haste but no stat lose? Or Soulbeast getting 200-300 stats while merged with no negatives, which would certainly be thematic for the pet archetypes would they not? Not to mention all the stat gain from Beast mastery that Soulbeast can leverage.

    There shouldn't be stat penalties on the especs, and certainly not on only a few.

    FB have no excuse (except maybe being favored by the gods ;) ) but Soulbeast lose the support of it's pet when merged. Beside, for Soulbeast it's part of it's mechanism, not a trait, you could say that it's the equivalent of the 15% increased attack speed of the berserker while in berserk mode.

    Iirc, this increase in attack speed is non-existent, since it does not stack with quickness, which we gain access to upon entering Berserk. Same for the 3rd Arms GM, Dual Wielding. Therefore no, Soulbeast has an advantage in this comparison.

    Make Banner Warrior for Zergs great again!!!

  • Shaogin.2679Shaogin.2679 Member ✭✭✭

    @draxynnic.3719 said:

    @Shaogin.2679 said:

    @Trianox.3486 said:
    People seem stuck with the whole "trade-off" part, but you can also see it as a change in terms of game play.
    Necro, reaper and scourge are great examples of that. They quite differently from one another.

    Bottom line, all those three play very differently. You could play them similarly, more or less, but they have inherent differences. Here is your trade-off, or change.
    Unfortunately, the term "trade-off" misleads into thinking about balance... while that is a whole different issue.
    Of course, we could argue about power level, but that's a different story. One might argue Repear shroud or Scourge shades or whatever to be better or worse... but it depends on circumstances... and individual skills and trait lines then, and their synergies with core trait lines...!

    The balance discussion isn't about whether those trade-off are sufficiant in terms of change of mechanics. It should be, in my opinion, about the disporportionate strength between "3 core trait lines" VS "1 elite + 2 core trait lines". Is it outof tune completely or not? (Then of course, we have to account that not every single combination of traits is optimal for DPS or survivability. "Everything" more or less work for open world, but not everything is enjoyable or effective, regardless of trait lines, e-specs, and individual traits you took or not.)

    The issue is that some classes were placed into this rule set of "there must be a trade off", while other classes skate on by nearly un-touched by this whole trade-off thing Anet was shooting for at one point. For instance, look at the Druid. For some reason it is the only support in the entire game so far that had its damaged nerfed (the pets) due to being a support spec. Firebrand, Scourge, Tempest, Scrapper, and Renegade are all capable of perfectly viable PvE DPS builds despite also being support specs.

    Also, lets stop pretending things like Guardian virtue changes between the specs are a trade off. That is extremely laughable. DH and FB virtues/tomes are in no way weaker than Guardian virtues, they are simply different.

    What would be nice is if Anet was consistent across the board with this. Either all Elite Specs get a legit trade off, or they don't. This business of handing out heavy nerfs to some classes in the name of E-Spec Trade Offs without doing the same for others is really kitten.

    I think the problem in the case of druid is that with other supports, you had a choice of speccing for DPS or support. Ranger pets, however, always have the same stats, so you could go full support or survivability with a druid while still having good DPS out of the pet.

    With regard to Guardians, for all people point at the virtues, Guardians are still the profession where you see core builds most often, so clearly it does have enough of a tradeoff, even if it's coming more from having to give up on a core traitline than the virtues. Which, IMO, is a better way to do tradeoffs in general - make the core traitlines good enough that they do represent a real tradeoff.

    LMAO. Um, no, people playing Core Guardian doesn't indicate sufficient trade-offs. What it does indicate, is that both DH and FB have been nerfed to hell over and over and over again in PvP due to dominating the meta and player complaints. When it comes to PvE, if you want top heals and support, you take FB, not core. If you want top condi damage, you take FB, not core. You want top power dps, you take Dh, not core. All these Guardian players have 0 idea of what a "trade-off" even means.

    Doc Von Doom

  • @Shaogin.2679 said:

    @draxynnic.3719 said:

    @Shaogin.2679 said:

    @Trianox.3486 said:
    People seem stuck with the whole "trade-off" part, but you can also see it as a change in terms of game play.
    Necro, reaper and scourge are great examples of that. They quite differently from one another.

    Bottom line, all those three play very differently. You could play them similarly, more or less, but they have inherent differences. Here is your trade-off, or change.
    Unfortunately, the term "trade-off" misleads into thinking about balance... while that is a whole different issue.
    Of course, we could argue about power level, but that's a different story. One might argue Repear shroud or Scourge shades or whatever to be better or worse... but it depends on circumstances... and individual skills and trait lines then, and their synergies with core trait lines...!

    The balance discussion isn't about whether those trade-off are sufficiant in terms of change of mechanics. It should be, in my opinion, about the disporportionate strength between "3 core trait lines" VS "1 elite + 2 core trait lines". Is it outof tune completely or not? (Then of course, we have to account that not every single combination of traits is optimal for DPS or survivability. "Everything" more or less work for open world, but not everything is enjoyable or effective, regardless of trait lines, e-specs, and individual traits you took or not.)

    The issue is that some classes were placed into this rule set of "there must be a trade off", while other classes skate on by nearly un-touched by this whole trade-off thing Anet was shooting for at one point. For instance, look at the Druid. For some reason it is the only support in the entire game so far that had its damaged nerfed (the pets) due to being a support spec. Firebrand, Scourge, Tempest, Scrapper, and Renegade are all capable of perfectly viable PvE DPS builds despite also being support specs.

    Also, lets stop pretending things like Guardian virtue changes between the specs are a trade off. That is extremely laughable. DH and FB virtues/tomes are in no way weaker than Guardian virtues, they are simply different.

    What would be nice is if Anet was consistent across the board with this. Either all Elite Specs get a legit trade off, or they don't. This business of handing out heavy nerfs to some classes in the name of E-Spec Trade Offs without doing the same for others is really kitten.

    I think the problem in the case of druid is that with other supports, you had a choice of speccing for DPS or support. Ranger pets, however, always have the same stats, so you could go full support or survivability with a druid while still having good DPS out of the pet.

    With regard to Guardians, for all people point at the virtues, Guardians are still the profession where you see core builds most often, so clearly it does have enough of a tradeoff, even if it's coming more from having to give up on a core traitline than the virtues. Which, IMO, is a better way to do tradeoffs in general - make the core traitlines good enough that they do represent a real tradeoff.

    LMAO. Um, no, people playing Core Guardian doesn't indicate sufficient trade-offs. What it does indicate, is that both DH and FB have been nerfed to hell over and over and over again in PvP due to dominating the meta and player complaints. When it comes to PvE, if you want top heals and support, you take FB, not core. If you want top condi damage, you take FB, not core. You want top power dps, you take Dh, not core. All these Guardian players have 0 idea of what a "trade-off" even means.

    Yes, core guardian is so bad in PvE that Snow Crows totally didn't get an Adina record with it.

    But setting that aside, how does viability in competetive gamemodes not indicate appropriate tradeoffs? Tradeoffs are not about having the same power level of profession mechanic, but are about making sure that that the core traitlines are just as viable as elite traitlines. In PvE, it makes sense that the majority of DPS builds will not use core, since very few classes have 3 core DPS traitlines and an elite that focuses on DPS is pretty important. However, for competetive gamemodes you need a mix of damage and support traitlines to be a sustainable, non-glassy build, in which case just making unused core traitlines stronger increases the tradeoff of taking an elite spec.

  • Shaogin.2679Shaogin.2679 Member ✭✭✭

    @ThrakathNar.4537 said:

    @Shaogin.2679 said:

    @draxynnic.3719 said:

    @Shaogin.2679 said:

    @Trianox.3486 said:
    People seem stuck with the whole "trade-off" part, but you can also see it as a change in terms of game play.
    Necro, reaper and scourge are great examples of that. They quite differently from one another.

    Bottom line, all those three play very differently. You could play them similarly, more or less, but they have inherent differences. Here is your trade-off, or change.
    Unfortunately, the term "trade-off" misleads into thinking about balance... while that is a whole different issue.
    Of course, we could argue about power level, but that's a different story. One might argue Repear shroud or Scourge shades or whatever to be better or worse... but it depends on circumstances... and individual skills and trait lines then, and their synergies with core trait lines...!

    The balance discussion isn't about whether those trade-off are sufficiant in terms of change of mechanics. It should be, in my opinion, about the disporportionate strength between "3 core trait lines" VS "1 elite + 2 core trait lines". Is it outof tune completely or not? (Then of course, we have to account that not every single combination of traits is optimal for DPS or survivability. "Everything" more or less work for open world, but not everything is enjoyable or effective, regardless of trait lines, e-specs, and individual traits you took or not.)

    The issue is that some classes were placed into this rule set of "there must be a trade off", while other classes skate on by nearly un-touched by this whole trade-off thing Anet was shooting for at one point. For instance, look at the Druid. For some reason it is the only support in the entire game so far that had its damaged nerfed (the pets) due to being a support spec. Firebrand, Scourge, Tempest, Scrapper, and Renegade are all capable of perfectly viable PvE DPS builds despite also being support specs.

    Also, lets stop pretending things like Guardian virtue changes between the specs are a trade off. That is extremely laughable. DH and FB virtues/tomes are in no way weaker than Guardian virtues, they are simply different.

    What would be nice is if Anet was consistent across the board with this. Either all Elite Specs get a legit trade off, or they don't. This business of handing out heavy nerfs to some classes in the name of E-Spec Trade Offs without doing the same for others is really kitten.

    I think the problem in the case of druid is that with other supports, you had a choice of speccing for DPS or support. Ranger pets, however, always have the same stats, so you could go full support or survivability with a druid while still having good DPS out of the pet.

    With regard to Guardians, for all people point at the virtues, Guardians are still the profession where you see core builds most often, so clearly it does have enough of a tradeoff, even if it's coming more from having to give up on a core traitline than the virtues. Which, IMO, is a better way to do tradeoffs in general - make the core traitlines good enough that they do represent a real tradeoff.

    LMAO. Um, no, people playing Core Guardian doesn't indicate sufficient trade-offs. What it does indicate, is that both DH and FB have been nerfed to hell over and over and over again in PvP due to dominating the meta and player complaints. When it comes to PvE, if you want top heals and support, you take FB, not core. If you want top condi damage, you take FB, not core. You want top power dps, you take Dh, not core. All these Guardian players have 0 idea of what a "trade-off" even means.

    Yes, core guardian is so bad in PvE that Snow Crows totally didn't get an Adina record with it.

    But setting that aside, how does viability in competetive gamemodes not indicate appropriate tradeoffs? Tradeoffs are not about having the same power level of profession mechanic, but are about making sure that that the core traitlines are just as viable as elite traitlines. In PvE, it makes sense that the majority of DPS builds will not use core, since very few classes have 3 core DPS traitlines and an elite that focuses on DPS is pretty important. However, for competetive gamemodes you need a mix of damage and support traitlines to be a sustainable, non-glassy build, in which case just making unused core traitlines stronger increases the tradeoff of taking an elite spec.

    Not once did I say Core Guard was bad, but way to completely miss the point there.

    This here is exactly what I mean when I say Guardians have no clue what an actual trade-off is. In the mind of a Guardian, you think the fact that you can't take all 3 core trait lines plus an elite spec trait line is some huge trade off. Like wow, it must suck so bad that you can't make your amazing elite spec even stronger, but you are completely missing the point here. You see, some classes have to make legit sacrifices just for choosing an elite spec, and this is in addition to what you already consider to be a trade off for your Guardian. To use as an example again, the Druid has heavily nerfed pets just for being a druid. The Soulbeast can only use one pet in combat. Mirages only get a single bar of endurance. Scrappers have nerfed vitality. Reapers lose ranged damage in shroud and their shroud degenerates faster. Scourges lose the ability to remain in shroud. Stuff like this is what I am talking about. These are not simply changing out one skill for another, they are deliberate weaknesses placed on the class to put them more on par with their core counterparts.

    And again, the issue isn't necessarily that Guardian has no trade offs. The issue here is that some classes have these trade offs being forced on them, while other classes are not receiving the same treatment. It was some project Anet started on and then just abandoned. I really don't think I can explain it any simpler than that man.

    Doc Von Doom