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PvP and Bots scene

Sunit.1698Sunit.1698 Member ✭✭

Why isn't arenanet doing anything about the bots scene dominating sPvP this season? I have been playing pvp for long and yes, bots were there since ages but this season it just seems to be a bot fest off hours. I usually play off hours and I have had 2 games in a row where everyone except me and 1 other person were bots.

I can post a picture here with screen names and you can see that these people have had about 800-1200 games just this season but I know that is against the rules. However at this point I have no clue what to do for arenanet to actually take any sort of action on botting and hacking. This is not the first time, I have been reporting the same people for about 2-3 seasons now and they are still botting. Arenanet recently made a post saying that every report is checked by people, is it a joke? I have been reporting these people for ages, why are they still around botting?

The neglect for the mode is disgusting, seriously do something, anything, because at this point I think I should totally give up on the mode because I can't play around reset and every match I play has at least 4-5 bots.

Comments

  • Huskyboy.1053Huskyboy.1053 Member ✭✭✭

    I don't know if there are all that many bots, a lot of them are just PvE players. I always ask people if they are a bot before I report them no matter how bad they're playing, and I almost always get a sarcastic or sincere response. So frankly I think the issue might be more that PvP is pulling in a boatload of really bad players who are only there for the rewards. The nice thing would be for Anet to nerf rewards for people who lose.

  • @Huskyboy.1053 said:
    I don't know if there are all that many bots, a lot of them are just PvE players. I always ask people if they are a bot before I report them no matter how bad they're playing, and I almost always get a sarcastic or sincere response. So frankly I think the issue might be more that PvP is pulling in a boatload of really bad players who are only there for the rewards. The nice thing would be for Anet to nerf rewards for people who lose.

    They are bots, I'm serious. You probably play around reset where I don't find that many. I play OCX time on weekdays and every match has at least 4-5 bots. And that's the least, may be more if the time clashes with any metas like auric basin or TD.

    I know for certain because they all move on the same line, will go to same places together, always have offline statue.

    They aren't bad when it comes to skills rotation. Trust me I have seen mirage bots who would attack you within 0.1 sec the moment you come out of stealth even if you are behind them. They are bots right..they beat human reaction speed. But map rotation or in general if you stand on a kite spot they will be stuck.

    The reason I am posting in forums because it has really been a bot fiesta off hours this season and it's not just new accounts. I see players with titles like LNHB who just run offline and have set up bots to farm ranked off hours. You can tell they are botting because they would all move in the same line together apart from combat, all match long.

    As I said, I can post names here. All these accounts have 800-1200 games this season. So they are either botting or sleeping during queues.

  • megilandil.7506megilandil.7506 Member ✭✭✭
    edited February 12, 2021

    @Sunit.1698 said:

    @Huskyboy.1053 said:
    I don't know if there are all that many bots, a lot of them are just PvE players. I always ask people if they are a bot before I report them no matter how bad they're playing, and I almost always get a sarcastic or sincere response. So frankly I think the issue might be more that PvP is pulling in a boatload of really bad players who are only there for the rewards. The nice thing would be for Anet to nerf rewards for people who lose.

    They are bots, I'm serious. You probably play around reset where I don't find that many. I play OCX time on weekdays and every match has at least 4-5 bots. And that's the least, may be more if the time clashes with any metas like auric basin or TD.

    I know for certain because they all move on the same line, will go to same places together, always have offline statue.

    They aren't bad when it comes to skills rotation. Trust me I have seen mirage bots who would attack you within 0.1 sec the moment you come out of stealth even if you are behind them. They are bots right..they beat human reaction speed. But map rotation or in general if you stand on a kite spot they will be stuck.

    The reason I am posting in forums because it has really been a bot fiesta off hours this season and it's not just new accounts. I see players with titles like LNHB who just run offline and have set up bots to farm ranked off hours. You can tell they are botting because they would all move in the same line together apart from combat, all match long.

    As I said, I can post names here. All these accounts have 800-1200 games this season. So they are either botting or sleeping during queues.

    The bot fiesta is 24/7 but in peak hours you get 1 or 2 of them in off hours when not much real players left you can get full team of them, and there is one in particular on EU that i puted years ago in flist to check their rating because it was the most awful ward that i never encountered, after that they ran during a lot of time a scrapper and now mirage its a near 40K AP acount and all this time he ended seasons with more than 2K games, abd i susspect that not just he uses bots in PvP also in races an event races he appears alwais in top spots with insane low times

  • You really think they're so sophisticated that they can sense other players around and fight accordingly?

  • @Nikola.3841 said:
    You really think they're so sophisticated that they can sense other players around and fight accordingly?

    they can detect players,? yes they can, is that they do
    they can fight acordingly? no, they can spam closed rotations, because this and macros classes that can live in a perfect closed rotation are bad for pvp(they enable bots and can carry players without have to think when is better to use skills untill the level where players have suficient knowledge of classes to read entirely enemy and suficient reflexes to xploit windows of oportunitty between skills(that is far away from the skill level of the rotation spammer)

    bots have a programed path with a few conditional desicions, one of them is if there is an enemy player in a determinate range, if they detect one

  • Khalisto.5780Khalisto.5780 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Huskyboy.1053 said:
    I don't know if there are all that many bots, a lot of them are just PvE players. I always ask people if they are a bot before I report them no matter how bad they're playing, and I almost always get a sarcastic or sincere response. So frankly I think the issue might be more that PvP is pulling in a boatload of really bad players who are only there for the rewards. The nice thing would be for Anet to nerf rewards for people who lose.

    I can send a ss of my friendlist on leaderboards, and you will see how many of them have now 1300-1400 games. Then you do your math and see they playing at least 14h/day every single day since season started, which is highly unlikely for human capabilities.

    Today i got one of those in my stream, it couldnt turn around a leave a corner in the map.

  • Filip.7463Filip.7463 Member ✭✭✭

    @Khalisto.5780 said:

    @Huskyboy.1053 said:
    I don't know if there are all that many bots, a lot of them are just PvE players. I always ask people if they are a bot before I report them no matter how bad they're playing, and I almost always get a sarcastic or sincere response. So frankly I think the issue might be more that PvP is pulling in a boatload of really bad players who are only there for the rewards. The nice thing would be for Anet to nerf rewards for people who lose.

    I can send a ss of my friendlist on leaderboards, and you will see how many of them have now 1300-1400 games. Then you do your math and see they playing at least 14h/day every single day since season started, which is highly unlikely for human capabilities.

    Today i got one of those in my stream, it couldnt turn around a leave a corner in the map.

    Stronlo can do that amount! 😂

  • The question is, if you remove all bots from sPVP, how many real players are left? I just try to understand it logically somehow. As a programmer, I'm 100% sure that bots can be completely removed from sPVP. But the fact that bots have been in sPVP for years, as if they were welcome guests. I mean, nothing is done against bots in sPVP. So I could really imagine that Anet leaves the bots in, because without them the population would decrease too much, which ultimately leads to longer queues or even to endless queues, and a completely dead game. But the big problem with this theory is that it would then even be likely that the bots could even come from Anet themselves.

    Complot or fact, we'll never know! But the bot problem has been around for how many years without any solution? Normally, these problems should always be in focus of a company as these are guests who consume resources without paying rent and in doing so they usually even make potential paying customers unhappy. From a purely logical point of view, there must be a reason for this permanent problem, and no, ignorance won't be the reason.

  • Khalisto.5780Khalisto.5780 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 14, 2021

    @Sileeent.5861 said:
    The question is, if you remove all bots from sPVP, how many real players are left? I just try to understand it logically somehow. As a programmer, I'm 100% sure that bots can be completely removed from sPVP. But the fact that bots have been in sPVP for years, as if they were welcome guests. I mean, nothing is done against bots in sPVP. So I could really imagine that Anet leaves the bots in, because without them the population would decrease too much, which ultimately leads to longer queues or even to endless queues, and a completely dead game. But the big problem with this theory is that it would then even be likely that the bots could even come from Anet themselves.

    Complot or fact, we'll never know! But the bot problem has been around for how many years without any solution? Normally, these problems should always be in focus of a company as these are guests who consume resources without paying rent and in doing so they usually even make potential paying customers unhappy. From a purely logical point of view, there must be a reason for this permanent problem, and no, ignorance won't be the reason.

    At some point you get to this conclusion, bots now the pop is even lower are very easy to identify.

    Number of matches, most of them are scourges, there is a few builds they play, and all bots play like the same 5 builds, axe staff mirage, condi scourge, hammer guardian, hammer warrior.

    In 2v2s devs would just have to lower their rating to silver and queue up as double scourge, and they would pull at least one of those bots 100% chance and watch they stand still once timer reaches 0

  • @Sunit.1698 said:
    Why isn't arenanet doing anything about the bots scene dominating sPvP this season? I have been playing pvp for long and yes, bots were there since ages but this season it just seems to be a bot fest off hours. I usually play off hours and I have had 2 games in a row where everyone except me and 1 other person were bots.

    I can post a picture here with screen names and you can see that these people have had about 800-1200 games just this season but I know that is against the rules. However at this point I have no clue what to do for arenanet to actually take any sort of action on botting and hacking. This is not the first time, I have been reporting the same people for about 2-3 seasons now and they are still botting. Arenanet recently made a post saying that every report is checked by people, is it a joke? I have been reporting these people for ages, why are they still around botting?

    The neglect for the mode is disgusting, seriously do something, anything, because at this point I think I should totally give up on the mode because I can't play around reset and every match I play has at least 4-5 bots.

    Well its not that hard to imagine why there are bots farming 24/7 since early seasons with tens of thousands reports on their backs.I will give you a hint the botting tool isnt free.

  • @Sileeent.5861 said:
    The question is, if you remove all bots from sPVP, how many real players are left? I just try to understand it logically somehow. As a programmer, I'm 100% sure that bots can be completely removed from sPVP. But the fact that bots have been in sPVP for years, as if they were welcome guests. I mean, nothing is done against bots in sPVP. So I could really imagine that Anet leaves the bots in, because without them the population would decrease too much, which ultimately leads to longer queues or even to endless queues, and a completely dead game. But the big problem with this theory is that it would then even be likely that the bots could even come from Anet themselves.

    Complot or fact, we'll never know! But the bot problem has been around for how many years without any solution? Normally, these problems should always be in focus of a company as these are guests who consume resources without paying rent and in doing so they usually even make potential paying customers unhappy. From a purely logical point of view, there must be a reason for this permanent problem, and no, ignorance won't be the reason.

    The number of players would be less and probably too low at off hours. True. But the games may be better and you actually enjoy pvp.

    I started playing pvp about 3 n 1/2 years back when I was ranked gold 1 my first season, my play times were same and yet there were less bots and the games were fun. Or maybe i had no clue of bots or how to recognize them then. For past 2 seasons or so whenever I play half of them are bots.

    I may be wrong and not get what you're saying correctly, but I think you're confusing bots with programs or accounts which just play pvp etc
    No, these are real accounts by people, they use botting program to just queue ranked and play while afk. The bot program queues and just keeps farming ranked rewards. This is the reason I said that i am seeing players with LNHB title and megilandil mentioned he saw person with 40k AP botting. Why would arenanet put bots with this much AP or titles if it was just to balance the pvp queues? In fact I saw a person with "the key of adhashim" title. That is no bot program, it is a human playing at times and utilizing the account and then setting up a bot program to queue and farm ranked games. I reported him...but I know arenanet would not do anything about it.

    Other than that do you think it's fair that these people farm afk and get all the mats and stuff at the same time ruining the game for legit players like me in ranked?

  • @georgessj.4198 said:

    @Sunit.1698 said:
    Why isn't arenanet doing anything about the bots scene dominating sPvP this season? I have been playing pvp for long and yes, bots were there since ages but this season it just seems to be a bot fest off hours. I usually play off hours and I have had 2 games in a row where everyone except me and 1 other person were bots.

    I can post a picture here with screen names and you can see that these people have had about 800-1200 games just this season but I know that is against the rules. However at this point I have no clue what to do for arenanet to actually take any sort of action on botting and hacking. This is not the first time, I have been reporting the same people for about 2-3 seasons now and they are still botting. Arenanet recently made a post saying that every report is checked by people, is it a joke? I have been reporting these people for ages, why are they still around botting?

    The neglect for the mode is disgusting, seriously do something, anything, because at this point I think I should totally give up on the mode because I can't play around reset and every match I play has at least 4-5 bots.

    Well its not that hard to imagine why there are bots farming 24/7 since early seasons with tens of thousands reports on their backs.I will give you a hint the botting tool isnt free.

    I dunno, but even after all the neglect and my reports leading to nothing I don't want to believe that the real reason arenanet isn't banning players from botting is that they are the ones selling botting tool.

    If that gets confirmed I'm quitting this game.

  • Crab Fear.1624Crab Fear.1624 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Huskyboy.1053 said:
    I don't know if there are all that many bots, a lot of them are just PvE players. I always ask people if they are a bot before I report them no matter how bad they're playing, and I almost always get a sarcastic or sincere response. So frankly I think the issue might be more that PvP is pulling in a boatload of really bad players who are only there for the rewards. The nice thing would be for Anet to nerf rewards for people who lose.

    dude, there is actually someone who has numbered their bot accounts.

    there are a ton, an imaginary electron ton, of bots....perhaps if we could weigh all the electrons it takes to generate the pixels necessary to render the bots in the game, it would actually be a ton.

    how much is a ton? (us ton)

    2000lbs

    How much does an electron weigh?

    Electron is 9.05 x 10-28 grams

    How many electrons in 1 ton?

    The answer is 9.9587956680267E+32

    While that is a bit of an overestimation of how many bots there are in the game, it is not that far off of a figure.

    /s for the goobs about to try and math me

    Soon™ ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°) nom nom nom🥔
    Fun Daredevil

  • Underdark.3726Underdark.3726 Member ✭✭✭
    edited February 17, 2021

    since I'm scared of posting link that contains ingame names check on twitch a stream called standing farmer. I know is not pvp but still boting imo.

  • PvP is so depleted in terms of population that some Gold 3 are in the "top 250" (in EU)

  • TheQuickFox.3826TheQuickFox.3826 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Adding a captcha every five or so games would be an effective but slightly annoying solution against unattended gameplay in sPvP.

    Ascalon Will Prevail!

    GW Wiki user page | GW2 Wiki user page

  • @Huskyboy.1053 said:
    I don't know if there are all that many bots, a lot of them are just PvE players.

    As the OP specified, these are players with 1000+ games in a single ranked league season. He is very clearly and obviously not talking about casual players who aren't very good. Bots usually have the ability to /whisper them turned off as well, so it's not like you can ask them if they're bots either.

    @Sunit.1698 said:
    Why isn't arenanet doing anything about the bots scene dominating sPvP this season?
    The neglect for the mode is disgusting, seriously do something, anything, because at this point I think I should totally give up on the mode because I can't play around reset and every match I play has at least 4-5 bots.

    They made a post about a month ago claiming they were working on it and to just keep using the in-game report function- if they were to give us an updated timeline on when they will start rectifying the issue it would probably make a lot of us feel a lot more positive.

  • @Sunit.1698 said:
    Arenanet recently made a post saying that every report is checked by people, is it a joke? I have been reporting these people for ages, why are they still around botting?

    Yeah, no, that's impossible...
    Imagine that anet receives maybe 10000 reports each day (I have no idea about the actual number, I myself create a few every day for botting and PvP AFK abuse).
    Let's say that an agent requires... THREE minutes to investigate each report. That's 30000 minutes spent on working. Let's say the value of one FTE (Full Time Employee) is 300 minutes worked per day. Then you need to hire 100 people just for the reports. They cost salary, IT equipment, taxes, etc. A colossal amount of money. That's just dumb.

    The automatized system is even worse for many reasons I don't want to go into here.

    There is a very easy and perfect solution:
    Let people buy "report tokens". 1 token = 1 EUR = you can file one report, and you can be sure that an agent will actually look at your report. Every report token will buy you around 0.75 EUR worth of gems, but if your report was valid, for example, the player you reported was trying to recreate the 3rd Reich on the global chat, or he was botting, or AFKing in a series of PVP matches in order to gain the pvp track rewards, then you get another 0.75 EUR worth of gems, and a notification about the action taken against the player.

  • Firebeard.1746Firebeard.1746 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 23, 2021

    @Huskyboy.1053 said:
    I don't know if there are all that many bots, a lot of them are just PvE players. I always ask people if they are a bot before I report them no matter how bad they're playing, and I almost always get a sarcastic or sincere response. So frankly I think the issue might be more that PvP is pulling in a boatload of really bad players who are only there for the rewards. The nice thing would be for Anet to nerf rewards for people who lose.

    Or match people of equally bad skill level together... Just sayin'.......

    If this were really the case and the elo system ACTUALLY worked, everyone should still have at least a 50/50 win rate. But that doesn't happen in practice, people notice the bad players when they have bad loss streaks. I had some kitten I called out for manipulation say something like "It's NA lol" and another say "Free leggies lol"

    When the reality is you progress 3x faster by winning on leggies and cash, that's why people cheat. I say the opposite: nerf rewards for winning, tie increases to participation like WvW, and whenever someone is caught cheating, nerf the hell out of their rank rewards. That way, no one has an incentive to cheat.

    I think the real issues are:
    1) Bad elo system/matchmaker
    2) Manipulation
    3) Population
    4) Cheating

    In that order. If there was less kitten, I'd still be playing this game mode, but the reality is people are cheating and they are NEVER punished anywhere severely enough to actually stop it. And what's this kitten of having F2P accounts in ranked? I'm sorry, but I think that's stupid. There's literally no cost to making a smurf account to throw your direction. And all you need is 2 separate AIs: a good bot for when it's on your team, a bad bot for when it's not.

    On #4 I've seen footage of people cheating -> Using move hacks, and then you have WP's description where they found a way to unnaturally inject game mechanics to their favor, so it'd be even harder to detect.

  • @Sunit.1698 said:

    @Huskyboy.1053 said:
    I don't know if there are all that many bots, a lot of them are just PvE players. I always ask people if they are a bot before I report them no matter how bad they're playing, and I almost always get a sarcastic or sincere response. So frankly I think the issue might be more that PvP is pulling in a boatload of really bad players who are only there for the rewards. The nice thing would be for Anet to nerf rewards for people who lose.

    They are bots, I'm serious. You probably play around reset where I don't find that many. I play OCX time on weekdays and every match has at least 4-5 bots. And that's the least, may be more if the time clashes with any metas like auric basin or TD.

    It's a mixture of both honestly. I'm in a bunch of PvE guilds and we always point people to Ranked PvP as the best gold per hour in the game especially if you sprinkle in other dailies with it.

    Bots are programmed with this in mind too. It's why you'll find them in Ranked, but little to none in Unranked.

    Like they said, nerfing or removing the rewards for losing in Ranked is actually the best way to get rid of both bots and bot-like players.
    The bots will move on to something more profitable that also requires little effort.
    The bot-like players will either try to improve, or leave for the same reason.

    Could also buff the rewards for actually winning and doing well in Ranked, while participation awards belong in Unranked if anywhere at all.

    Ranked DuoQ 😡👉🚪
    Nerfs should be reserved for extreme cases and only done in creative ways that make the game more interesting to play and watch.
    "You cannot learn a thing you think you know..."

  • @Sileeent.5861 said:
    The question is, if you remove all bots from sPVP, how many real players are left? I just try to understand it logically somehow. As a programmer, I'm 100% sure that bots can be completely removed from sPVP. But the fact that bots have been in sPVP for years, as if they were welcome guests. I mean, nothing is done against bots in sPVP. So I could really imagine that Anet leaves the bots in, because without them the population would decrease too much, which ultimately leads to longer queues or even to endless queues, and a completely dead game. But the big problem with this theory is that it would then even be likely that the bots could even come from Anet themselves.

    Complot or fact, we'll never know! But the bot problem has been around for how many years without any solution? Normally, these problems should always be in focus of a company as these are guests who consume resources without paying rent and in doing so they usually even make potential paying customers unhappy. From a purely logical point of view, there must be a reason for this permanent problem, and no, ignorance won't be the reason.

    No, because then it becomes which ever team has the more bots loses. If the population is that scarce that killing off the bot population will kill the mode, then the mode was never alive to begin with and the bots are just inflating the economy.

  • Firebeard.1746Firebeard.1746 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 23, 2021

    @Multicolorhipster.9751 said:

    @Sunit.1698 said:

    @Huskyboy.1053 said:
    I don't know if there are all that many bots, a lot of them are just PvE players. I always ask people if they are a bot before I report them no matter how bad they're playing, and I almost always get a sarcastic or sincere response. So frankly I think the issue might be more that PvP is pulling in a boatload of really bad players who are only there for the rewards. The nice thing would be for Anet to nerf rewards for people who lose.

    They are bots, I'm serious. You probably play around reset where I don't find that many. I play OCX time on weekdays and every match has at least 4-5 bots. And that's the least, may be more if the time clashes with any metas like auric basin or TD.

    It's a mixture of both honestly. I'm in a bunch of PvE guilds and we always point people to Ranked PvP as the best gold per hour in the game especially if you sprinkle in other dailies with it.

    Just climb the fractal ladder, losing in SpVP IS NOT more efficient than doing just about any meta and/or fractals. Just selling the mats of even the worst LW metas is probably more efficient than 3/pips per game, especially if you're a filthy casual and can't finish the track that season.

    Bots are programmed with this in mind too. It's why you'll find them in Ranked, but little to none in Unranked.

    Well botting anything is free money. bots basically give players infinite time to earn things. Even if the returns are bad, it's still worth it if you don't have to do anything. it's free money.

    Like they said, nerfing or removing the rewards for losing in Ranked is actually the best way to get rid of both bots and bot-like players.

    No, people are cheating. I think that's the real problem. Maybe the matchmaker is bad. Hypothetically if there's a large enough population and a decent elo system, people should be hitting 50% win rates and these streaks of losses wouldn't happen that cause people to get so upset. The REAL issue is manipulation and if wins are more incentivized, you'll see more of it.

    Could also buff the rewards for actually winning and doing well in Ranked, while participation awards belong in Unranked if anywhere at all.

    You think 3x the pips isn't worth it?

    Modern bots in WoW are far more effective than human players, and if someone implemented one in GW2 they'd probably have a ridiculous win rate. This game has such a high skill cap, you're basically telling noobs to try the game mode and waste their time and maybe encouraging pro botting. It'll completely destroy the population, not just the bot population.

  • @TheDestroyer.4701 said:

    @Sunit.1698 said:
    Arenanet recently made a post saying that every report is checked by people, is it a joke? I have been reporting these people for ages, why are they still around botting?

    Yeah, no, that's impossible...
    Imagine that anet receives maybe 10000 reports each day (I have no idea about the actual number, I myself create a few every day for botting and PvP AFK abuse).
    Let's say that an agent requires... THREE minutes to investigate each report. That's 30000 minutes spent on working. Let's say the value of one FTE (Full Time Employee) is 300 minutes worked per day. Then you need to hire 100 people just for the reports. They cost salary, IT equipment, taxes, etc. A colossal amount of money. That's just dumb.

    The automatized system is even worse for many reasons I don't want to go into here.

    There is a very easy and perfect solution:
    Let people buy "report tokens". 1 token = 1 EUR = you can file one report, and you can be sure that an agent will actually look at your report. Every report token will buy you around 0.75 EUR worth of gems, but if your report was valid, for example, the player you reported was trying to recreate the 3rd Reich on the global chat, or he was botting, or AFKing in a series of PVP matches in order to gain the pvp track rewards, then you get another 0.75 EUR worth of gems, and a notification about the action taken against the player.

    What a wonderful idea. What's next?? Let people buy "Fractal tokens", "WvWvW tokens" etc. 1 token = 1 EUR yeah.
    "Dreaming of Bifrost??? 10 tokens!!!! Only in token store this week!" -nice tagline .
    For 20 tokens support team will kill all your enemies

  • @Firebeard.1746 said:
    Just climb the fractal ladder, losing in SpVP IS NOT more efficient than doing just about any meta and/or fractals. Just selling the mats of even the worst LW metas is probably more efficient than 3/pips per game, especially if you're a filthy casual and can't finish the track that season.
    Well botting anything is free money. bots basically give players infinite time to earn things. Even if the returns are bad, it's still worth it if you don't have to do anything. it's free money.

    I honestly don't know what you mean. It's just one of, if not the best way to get gold with little-no sorts of limitations/diminishing returns. You could really grind it all day if you hated yourself enough, or if you were literally inhuman(AKA bot) Maybe not the best g per hour, but it certainly isn't trash money by any means, and like you say; for minimal effort, which is perfect for bots.

    No, people are cheating. I think that's the real problem. Maybe the matchmaker is bad. Hypothetically if there's a large enough population and a decent elo system, people should be hitting 50% win rates and these streaks of losses wouldn't happen that cause people to get so upset. The REAL issue is manipulation and if wins are more incentivized, you'll see more of it.

    I'm not saying that people aren't. I was just trying to stick to the topic.

    Match manipulation is an issue, but if winning gave more pips and losing gave no pips I don't feel like that would have any sort of effect on Match Manipulation. The high-rated players that actually do that aren't doing it for the gold from pip chests. They're doing it for titles and high leaderboard spots that will boost the value of their account in terms of real money. That, or for clout. Nobody is match manipulating for pips/gold from games.

    The incentive is already there, and DuoQ's made it 60-IQ easy to do anyway.

    You think 3x the pips isn't worth it?

    I don't know where this number is coming from.
    If the pips gain for winning was even doubled, if you got 0 as a base gain for losses, it would still probably be an overall loss in gold per hour for a bot with a slightly below average winrate or a player barely trying and pulling about the same amount of wins.

    I'm too lazy to do the actual math, but if you want me to, i'll try.

    Modern bots in WoW are far more effective than human players, and if someone implemented one in GW2 they'd probably have a ridiculous win rate. This game has such a high skill cap, you're basically telling noobs to try the game mode and waste their time and maybe encouraging pro botting. It'll completely destroy the population, not just the bot population.

    Why should we assume something like that is going to happen when it hasn't happened already? Literally nothing stopping anyone from making a bot like that right now or at any other point before now.

    Ranked DuoQ 😡👉🚪
    Nerfs should be reserved for extreme cases and only done in creative ways that make the game more interesting to play and watch.
    "You cannot learn a thing you think you know..."

  • Firebeard.1746Firebeard.1746 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 23, 2021

    @Multicolorhipster.9751 said:

    @Firebeard.1746 said:
    Just climb the fractal ladder, losing in SpVP IS NOT more efficient than doing just about any meta and/or fractals. Just selling the mats of even the worst LW metas is probably more efficient than 3/pips per game, especially if you're a filthy casual and can't finish the track that season.
    Well botting anything is free money. bots basically give players infinite time to earn things. Even if the returns are bad, it's still worth it if you don't have to do anything. it's free money.

    I honestly don't know what you mean. It's just one of, if not the best way to get gold with little-no sorts of limitations/diminishing returns. You could really grind it all day if you hated yourself enough, or if you were literally inhuman(AKA bot) Maybe not the best g per hour, but it certainly isn't trash money by any means, and like you say; for minimal effort, which is perfect for bots.

    No, people are cheating. I think that's the real problem. Maybe the matchmaker is bad. Hypothetically if there's a large enough population and a decent elo system, people should be hitting 50% win rates and these streaks of losses wouldn't happen that cause people to get so upset. The REAL issue is manipulation and if wins are more incentivized, you'll see more of it.

    I'm not saying that people aren't. I was just trying to stick to the topic.

    It's the core issue. If the ELO system actually worked and wasn't being milked, people would have 50/50 win rates and not be crying.

    Match manipulation is an issue, but if winning gave more pips and losing gave no pips I don't feel like that would have any sort of effect on Match Manipulation. The high-rated players that actually do that aren't doing it for the gold from pip chests. They're doing it for titles and high leaderboard spots that will boost the value of their account in terms of real money. That, or for clout. Nobody is match manipulating for pips/gold from games.

    The incentive is already there, and DuoQ's made it 60-IQ easy to do anyway.

    You think 3x the pips isn't worth it?

    I don't know where this number is coming from.
    If the pips gain for winning was even doubled, if you got 0 as a base gain for losses, it would still probably be an overall loss in gold per hour for a bot with a slightly below average winrate or a player barely trying and pulling about the same amount of wins.

    You still get rewards from reward tracks. It's not 0. I'm specifically saying winning gets you literally 3x the gold (10 pips as opposed to just 3).

    You're still COMPLETELY ignoring my comment about ELO. There is a massive issue if people are having huge loss streaks. Even if everyone is just auto'ing, at some point, if the elo system ACTUALLY WORKED, those people would eventually be matched together and get the 50/50 win rate, bots or no. The REAL issue is manipulation. Or perhaps a broken elo system (i think it's the former).

    Also, why are you admitting that people are manipulating matches in their favor and then saying that taking away loss rewards is healthy for the game? Basically, you want only a few people to actually win anything, reading between the lines here. Who's going to put up with that? I'm not. I'm done, that measly 3/pips per win can go eff itself while I WvW or do just about anything else for better reward. The only thing that profits off of the "participation" award is bots.

    Your solution, at best, ignoring reward track MIGHT get bots out of the scene, but people will whine here about manipulation, OR just stop playing altogether as the same 5 people keep winning everything.

    I'm too lazy to do the actual math, but if you want me to, i'll try.

    Modern bots in WoW are far more effective than human players, and if someone implemented one in GW2 they'd probably have a ridiculous win rate. This game has such a high skill cap, you're basically telling noobs to try the game mode and waste their time and maybe encouraging pro botting. It'll completely destroy the population, not just the bot population.

    Why should we assume something like that is going to happen when it hasn't happened already? Literally nothing stopping anyone from making a bot like that right now or at any other point before now.

    I actually think it has, there's been instances in matches where the players have felt hyper-coordinated to the point they're melting everyone almost instantly after a single CC goes off from one of them (players instantly swap to the same target, etc). Other players I've talked to have noted players switching targets to something way out of camera and the rotation speed not being fast enough for a human player.

    I just think most people who play PVP just aren't paying enough attention to mechanics because of how hectic it can be and lots of people are not super experienced with the game.

    As a side note, there are maps in the rotation that regularly drop Shiny baubles as bonus rewards on a rotation, that requires no start up and I'm sure has better ROI in terms of time. It's an average of 2 baubles per reward for the high level ones (check out the weekly map bonus reward rotations, but some of it backloaded on the 10x drops). Anyone can always sell mats, That's no start up cost either. ranked PVP for gold is really just an inexperienced player's go-to because it's obvious and in front of you. Guildies say it's 14g/hour on a good VB map when it drop baubles (not sure if that rotates). Spamming strikes is supposed to be 20g/hour average. It takes 18 matches, with a 100% win rate (which is unrealistic for most people) to get 29g from pips (34.4 if you count match rewards). I can get 4 matches/hour if I'm spamming SpVP. So it works out to 7g/hour WHEN YOU'RE WINNING 100% of the TIME. There is nothing more profitable about ranked. I want to make it really clear. WAY LESS so if you're losing. And even less gold if you're not playing on the top pip chest and still working up.

    Long story short, taking out the participation rewards will punish real players who actually are still trying and getting screwed by the idiots driving this game mode further into the ground. There is a somewhat strong argument for it killing botting, but it will hurt the game mode EVEN more. And really the strategy would only work for as long as ELO is broken.

    I think with an average win rate, it's probably not even competitive with T1 fractals if you have the mastery.

  • @Firebeard.1746 said:
    It's the core issue. If the ELO system actually worked and wasn't being milked, people would have 50/50 win rates and not be crying.

    I'm like 80% sure Gw2 uses Glicko

    You still get rewards from reward tracks. It's not 0. I'm specifically saying winning gets you literally 3x the gold (10 pips as opposed to just 3).

    I see what you're saying there now. Point still stands, as taking away the participation award will hurt the bot's bottom line.

    You're still COMPLETELY ignoring my comment about ELO. There is a massive issue if people are having huge loss streaks. Even if everyone is just auto'ing, at some point, if the elo system ACTUALLY WORKED, those people would eventually be matched together and get the 50/50 win rate, bots or no. The REAL issue is manipulation. Or perhaps a broken elo system (i think it's the former).

    Also, why are you admitting that people are manipulating matches in their favor and then saying that taking away loss rewards is healthy for the game? Basically, you want only a few people to actually win anything, reading between the lines here. Who's going to put up with that? I'm not. I'm done, that measly 3/pips per win can go eff itself while I WvW or do just about anything else for better reward. The only thing that profits off of the "participation" award is bots.

    Your solution, at best, ignoring reward track MIGHT get bots out of the scene, but people will whine here about manipulation, OR just stop playing altogether as the same 5 people keep winning everything.

    Just trying to give ideas relevant to the topic: bots. Not Match Manipulation.

    I understand those topics are somewhat entwined, but getting the bots out would hurt Match Manipulation if anything.
    Ever since DuoQ came back, Match Manipulation hasn't really existed. There's metagaming; which, is arguably the same thing if not worse.

    The way they go about that is DuoQing and then purposefully sniping the bots when actual-player counts are at their lowest, and they get the highest rating disparity possible.
    If the bots go away, that would probably hurt the people metagaming. If it doesn't, remove or split DuoQ.
    Or honestly... Both? Both. Both is good. Problem solved, say goodbye to those 100% winrates.

    I don't think bots are going to try it for reduced reward track rewards alone, and they wouldn't be there for no reason at all.
    Even if more profitable farms exist, Ranked PvP still attracts a lot of them for some reason.

    And that's pretty sad really. Like... Do you know what you get from winning Ranked matches in pretty much any other game? You get rating and the win. That's your reward.
    Do you know what you get for losing? Nothing, because its a loss.
    As it should be.

    Ranked DuoQ 😡👉🚪
    Nerfs should be reserved for extreme cases and only done in creative ways that make the game more interesting to play and watch.
    "You cannot learn a thing you think you know..."

  • Firebeard.1746Firebeard.1746 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 24, 2021

    @Multicolorhipster.9751 said:

    @Firebeard.1746 said:
    It's the core issue. If the ELO system actually worked and wasn't being milked, people would have 50/50 win rates and not be crying.

    I'm like 80% sure Gw2 uses Glicko

    You still get rewards from reward tracks. It's not 0. I'm specifically saying winning gets you literally 3x the gold (10 pips as opposed to just 3).

    I see what you're saying there now. Point still stands, as taking away the participation award will hurt the bot's bottom line.

    You're still COMPLETELY ignoring my comment about ELO. There is a massive issue if people are having huge loss streaks. Even if everyone is just auto'ing, at some point, if the elo system ACTUALLY WORKED, those people would eventually be matched together and get the 50/50 win rate, bots or no. The REAL issue is manipulation. Or perhaps a broken elo system (i think it's the former).

    Also, why are you admitting that people are manipulating matches in their favor and then saying that taking away loss rewards is healthy for the game? Basically, you want only a few people to actually win anything, reading between the lines here. Who's going to put up with that? I'm not. I'm done, that measly 3/pips per win can go eff itself while I WvW or do just about anything else for better reward. The only thing that profits off of the "participation" award is bots.

    Your solution, at best, ignoring reward track MIGHT get bots out of the scene, but people will whine here about manipulation, OR just stop playing altogether as the same 5 people keep winning everything.

    Just trying to give ideas relevant to the topic: bots. Not Match Manipulation.

    I understand those topics are somewhat entwined, but getting the bots out would hurt Match Manipulation if anything.
    Ever since DuoQ came back, Match Manipulation hasn't really existed. There's metagaming; which, is arguably the same thing if not worse.

    If people are using bots to manipulate, they're 100% intertwined. I actually believe they are, as you mentioned, it's using a common Elo system. i don't think it's that bad. I think that they're giving the bots an AI that is beneficial to the real player, so the bots may not even see the bad win rates you expect (the bot will play better when it matches with the manipulator). And the bots cover a large spread of the ELO (at least up through gold). If they were that bad, you'd expect them all to bubble down. I revoke my previous statement about your solution helping it at all. I think that the bots are part of the manipulation.

    And that's pretty sad really. Like... Do you know what you get from winning Ranked matches in pretty much any other game? You get rating and the win. That's your reward.
    Do you know what you get for losing? Nothing, because its a loss.
    As it should be.

    False, HoTs gives you credit just for playing particular class/character types in matches, Paragon had similar quests, Spellbreak you still get XP. It's getting less and less common in PVP games to give ABSOLUTELY nothing for a loss. I think 80% of our games are decided before we even get in, giving nothing is really stingy in that context. It was very rare when I was PVPing they I felt I was actually having an impact. I had many matches where my team mates were so crappy, even if I was the only player playing well, I knew we were going to lose and vice versa, where I knew I was kitten related to my team mates and the enemy but we still won somehow.

  • @Firebeard.1746 said:
    If people are using bots to manipulate, they're 100% intertwined. I actually believe they are, as you mentioned, it's using a common Elo system. i don't think it's that bad. I think that they're giving the bots an AI that is beneficial to the real player, so the bots may not even see the bad win rates you expect (the bot will play better when it matches with the manipulator). And the bots cover a large spread of the ELO (at least up through gold). If they were that bad, you'd expect them all to bubble down. I revoke my previous statement about your solution helping it at all. I think that the bots are part of the manipulation.

    It's true. They are.

    What do you think should be done about it then? A ban wave?

    False, HoTs gives you credit just for playing particular class/character types in matches, Paragon had similar quests, Spellbreak you still get XP. It's getting less and less common in PVP games to give ABSOLUTELY nothing for a loss. I think 80% of our games are decided before we even get in, giving nothing is really stingy in that context. It was very rare when I was PVPing they I felt I was actually having an impact. I had many matches where my team mates were so crappy, even if I was the only player playing well, I knew we were going to lose and vice versa, where I knew I was kitten related to my team mates and the enemy but we still won somehow.

    Okay, fair. You do get XP in most games. I don't even know how to respond to that. I've been absolutely destroyed.
    The next time someone throws in any competitive game, i'll be sure to let everyone know they shouldn't be upset because they still get XP. I appreciate the advice, and i'll let you know how that works out.

    Ranked DuoQ 😡👉🚪
    Nerfs should be reserved for extreme cases and only done in creative ways that make the game more interesting to play and watch.
    "You cannot learn a thing you think you know..."

  • Firebeard.1746Firebeard.1746 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 24, 2021

    @Multicolorhipster.9751 said:
    Okay, fair. You do get XP in most games. I don't even know how to respond to that. I've been absolutely destroyed.
    The next time someone throws in any competitive game, i'll be sure to let everyone know they shouldn't be upset because they still get XP. I appreciate the advice, and i'll let you know how that works out.

    Lol you sound just like the manipulating trolls. Me and OP don't feel that way. it sucks losing, regardless, getting that 1/3rd of what you could have gotten if someone actually played fair (and tbh, it REALLY sucked when I was earning ascension, I've never been more furious at any entitled brat more in my life being told "lol free leggies" as they literally made me play more matches than I needed to). But sure, I guess getting nothing makes it suck less? Lol! The manipulators and you are deluding yourselves thinking normal people play for just free rewards. Anyone who knows the game knows it's not worth it, and in reality, you'd only be playing to earn legendary amors, because you can literally do a lot of things for better reward. The PVP neck and ascension are all tied to victories, so those griefers make earning those ridiculous and awful.

    BUT I think we've come to an interesting conclusion: botting in some scenarios is still free stuff. People manipulating are doing so for free stuff. Maybe the real answer is to cap rewards for the season and tie most of them to climbing the PVP Pip rewards once, then absolutely nothing after. You could up the ticket and ascended shards to compensate for people who want to grind the armors, but the devs could cap and time gate the gold, much like they do with other sources. Interestingly enough, I don't believe map bonus rewards are capped, so if someone wanted to bot, they could do that instead.

    Other things that should be done: if F2p players are allowed to play ranked, they only play with each other. I think they shouldn't at all be allowed in ranked so bans are more meaningful. And yes, bans. I can tell you though me and others in NA have seen the same bots, over and over, and reported them, over and over and nothing has been done. Permanent PVP bans instead of whole account bans, so the person is still stuck with the grisly choice of starting over from scratch or just accepting what they've done and moving on.

  • @Firebeard.1746 said:
    Lol you sound just like the manipulating trolls. Me and OP don't feel that way. it sucks losing, regardless, getting that 1/3rd of what you could have gotten if someone actually played fair (and tbh, it REALLY sucked when I was earning ascension, I've never been more furious at any entitled brat more in my life being told "lol free leggies" as they literally made me play more matches than I needed to). But sure, I guess getting nothing makes it suck less? Lol! The manipulators and you are deluding yourselves thinking normal people play for just free rewards. Anyone who knows the game knows it's not worth it, and in reality, you'd only be playing to earn legendary amors, because you can literally do a lot of things for better reward. The PVP neck and ascension are all tied to victories, so those griefers make earning those ridiculous and awful.

    I have never done a troll or a match manipulation in my life. I have only ever been a major opponent against high level match-manipulation and botting.
    I also haven't played Ranked since Season 18 solely because of high-level match manipulation.

    I believe its possible to make the game more competitive, but freebie rewards belong in the casual mode if anything.

    BUT I think we've come to an interesting conclusion: botting in some scenarios is still free stuff. People manipulating are doing so for free stuff. Maybe the real answer is to cap rewards for the season and tie most of them to climbing the PVP Pip rewards once, then absolutely nothing after. You could up the ticket and ascended shards to compensate for people who want to grind the armors, but the devs could cap and time gate the gold, much like they do with other sources. Interestingly enough, I don't believe map bonus rewards are capped, so if someone wanted to bot, they could do that instead.

    That's really barely any different from what i'm proposing, but I guess I forgot that people love time-gates.

    Other things that should be done: if F2p players are allowed to play ranked, they only play with each other. I think they shouldn't at all be allowed in ranked so bans are more meaningful. And yes, bans. I can tell you though me and others in NA have seen the same bots, over and over, and reported them, over and over and nothing has been done. Permanent PVP bans instead of whole account bans, so the person is still stuck with the grisly choice of starting over from scratch or just accepting what they've done and moving on.

    The worst punishment for big-name match manipulators/wintraders was a few months, and that was for the big MAT. It's usually unpunished in Ranked, if not an even shorter temp ~1 week suspension. Metagaming isn't technically Match Manipulation either, and since it's so easy to do now I don't see it being addressed ever.

    I don't think bots are really getting all that much attention right now either, but a ban isn't going to stop a bot anyway. Especially in a f2p game. If you really want to be rid of them, then you have to get rid of the reason why they're there in the first place.

    People also love to complain about the low population. So much so that its become an excuse to never do anything.
    "Don't get rid of the bots, population is too low!"
    "Don't split the queues, population too low!"
    I cannot imagine that these same people would be willing to lose the entire F2p population.

    Ranked DuoQ 😡👉🚪
    Nerfs should be reserved for extreme cases and only done in creative ways that make the game more interesting to play and watch.
    "You cannot learn a thing you think you know..."

  • Firebeard.1746Firebeard.1746 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 24, 2021

    @Multicolorhipster.9751 said:
    That's really barely any different from what i'm proposing, but I guess I forgot that people love time-gates.

    It's vastly different, you seem to think bots will always suck and therefore die out if losing is not rewarded. I wholly disagree and have brought up reasons why. I'm thinking your proposal is going to encourage pro-botting and contribute more to the real problem, manipulation. I already know some people use a targeting hack in PVP. People won't be afraid to use a bot if someone sells it on the dark web.

    But capping the reward caps the effectiveness of botting, hopefully decreasing the amount it happens, and the same will happen with manipulation tactics too.

    I'm of the opinion, someone or something will always fly under the radar, and Anet has no desire to police PVP, so they need to kill the infinite rewards we've both identified. It's the sanest solution given their will to actually police things. And if there's another place to get more constant rewards from botting, I bet the focus will go there.

  • Hollowperspectiv.3047Hollowperspectiv.3047 Member ✭✭
    edited February 25, 2021

    Can we start referring to sPvP as sPvB(Structured Player vs Bot)? I am fighting literal, stop when I stealth, bots no less than an average of 1 per match. Some matches have like 2-3, some none, but at the gold 1 level, it's just not fun anymore. I was always mid plat for years and years, was playing since beta until I took a year off a couple years ago. When I came back, I placed low gold and can't climb out because I'm fighting with garbage Pentium 4 warriors on my team that we're programmed by kitten Doug in his grandma's basement. Please raise the Ranked ranked requirement to 100.

    livin' that one character since beta lifestyle

  • Firebeard.1746Firebeard.1746 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 25, 2021

    @Hollowperspectiv.3047 said:
    Can we start referring to sPvP as sPvB(Structured Player vs Bot)? I am fighting literal, stop when I stealth, bots no less than an average of 1 per match. Some matches have like 2-3, some none, but at the gold 1 level, it's just not fun anymore. I was always mid plat for years and years, was playing since beta until I took a year off a couple years ago. When I came back, I placed low gold and can't climb out because I'm fighting with garbage Pentium 4 warriors on my team that we're programmed by kitten Doug in his grandma's basement. Please raise the Ranked ranked requirement to 100.

    Rank requirement # will do nothing for as long as F2P accounts exist, a smart manipulator will just level an extra couple in the background in case he loses some accounts. That's why the PVP rank 20 now doesn't do anything, it's not requiring actual effort from the people who are causing the problems.

  • Sunit.1698Sunit.1698 Member ✭✭

    You both have taken my thread and made a complete salad out of it.

    1. I am not trying to discuss match manipulation here.
    2. Neither am I trying to discuss fractals or other pve farms here.

    I do t4s daily, I make decent gold doing what I do in my casual play time. The issue I am trying to discuss isn't that.

    I do not think that pvp rewards should be nerfed, it's not that it pays a lot, it is the fact that you can create a new account and easily farm it whereas you can't just get into fractals like that. Win or lose you are bound to get something whereas in fractals you can't do that. Point being it is not that the rewards from pvp is too high, it is the fact that it is really easy to get into. Reducing the reward will make the already diminishing pvp population even lower.

    And I really do not have any clue what makes you think that botting is match manipulation or is related to MMR in any way. People who bot aren't match manipulating or win trading. They are just farming the gold while being afk. I mentioned that I have noticed people with titles like LNHB and raid titles botting. They aren't match manipulating, they just set up the bot to farm pvp offline.

  • Sunit.1698Sunit.1698 Member ✭✭

    And to add, most of the bots I came across were not F2P. They were scourges, scrapper or mirage. Hell I have even seen weaver bots. In fact i do not think i have seen an f2p account botting. F2P have
    restrictions on trading post and mailing anyway, the one setting up the bot wouldn't gain much farming pvp on a f2p account unless they intend to buy key for it later. So banning F2P may help with hacking maybe, but definitely wouldn't help with botting much.

  • Khalisto.5780Khalisto.5780 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Sunit.1698 said:
    And to add, most of the bots I came across were not F2P. They were scourges, scrapper or mirage. Hell I have even seen weaver bots. In fact i do not think i have seen an f2p account botting. F2P have
    restrictions on trading post and mailing anyway, the one setting up the bot wouldn't gain much farming pvp on a f2p account unless they intend to buy key for it later. So banning F2P may help with hacking maybe, but definitely wouldn't help with botting much.

    There are hammer wars and hammers guardian bots, i never fought a hammer guard in conquest tho, only mini seasons.

  • Kronos.3695Kronos.3695 Member ✭✭✭

    Mini season started, still doing placements, and got 4 bots in 3 matches out of 6 played.
    In ranked I've probably seen 1 in the whole season, what's happening?
    I'm around plat 1/2 for both (at least for mini-season I was on last 2v2).