Tune down superspeed durations or potency — Guild Wars 2 Forums
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Tune down superspeed durations or potency

Threather.9354Threather.9354 Member ✭✭✭✭
edited February 12, 2021 in WvW

Yep, the speed is just too much. Same applies to speed runes.

If everyone is a sonic, no1 will spend a full second on a field, sometimes they will even walk through it without taking any damage. Why do you guys think staff ele is deemed useless by strong groups (btw, not your group if you disagree)? Because it relies on fields.

Make zephyrite rune a must for "lot of superspeed" builds.

Don't you guys miss the meta where stab 1 and stab 2 had to coordinate with each other? Time to go back there, scrappers can coordinate with revenants about superspeed, guardians can coordinate with other sources of stab. Nerf concentration stat and superspeed, thanks, right now it doesn't even feel like a multiplayer game as everyone has definite roles with no overlap or coordination.

Btw flanking is impossible if stacking is necessity to match the speed of movement for engages. Superspeed as it is makes the gameplay less diverse and creative. No gankers, no flankers, no ranged tags, is this truly what we want? Stripped of all precious high skill and coordination moments.

it is just boring.

Ri Ba - Charr of logic
twitch.tv/ribatime
~Key to fixing WvW with minimal effort resides in my post history~

Comments

  • Jski.6180Jski.6180 Member ✭✭✭✭

    It needs to stop coving over movement speed effects. The endless means of immunity to cripal and chill is not good for the game.

    See ELE forms and you will get my views.

  • Woah, I forgot about Rune of Zeph. I'm going to try it! Thanks!

  • DeceiverX.8361DeceiverX.8361 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Jski.6180 said:
    It needs to stop coving over movement speed effects. The endless means of immunity to cripal and chill is not good for the game.

    It doesn't cover over them. The superspeed buff itself boosts mobility to the in-combat movespeed cap by brute force due to how much it provides.
    We don't actually see the effects a true 100% bonus would have because OOC is capped at what swiftness offers and the in-combat movespeed maximum is just a lower number threshold.

    Only way to make it less potent is hit the numbers, and I completely agree with OP that speed rune is also utterly broken and provides way too much for how easy it is to get permanent swiftness.

    Swiftness - or the 33% number it provides such as traited SotL and the likes, should be the best you can get for pure landspeed.

    @Dawdler.8521 said:
    Guess who this will hurt the most?

    Hint: its not the zerg.

    Good. The disparity in smallscale that this effect and RoS produces is honestly way bigger than in zerg play where so much harass happens at range, anyways. Any build lacking a ton of mobility and swiftness uptime is absolutely crippled in viability as it stands because of these effects being so prominent in-combat.

    You sure that Sniper idea is as good as you thought it was gonna be?
    Because I think my original idea is better.

  • Voltekka.2375Voltekka.2375 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Runes of speed. You can use them, too!

  • Zikory.6871Zikory.6871 Member ✭✭✭

    Wants more coordination but can't coordinate CC to counter super speed. Interesting reasoning for this complaint...

    [KnT] Knights of the Temple

  • subversiontwo.7501subversiontwo.7501 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 12, 2021

    @Threather.9354 said:
    No gankers, no flankers, no ranged tags

    The problem with this thread is the same as the last time you made these arguments: The above citation is simply not true.

    I think your problems stem from playing at smaller pickup scale with a more loosely composed squad and less experienced group members (and possibly facing many low- to midtier guild groups that are effective against that with just stack and roll).

    If you look at the larger pickup groups (50, 50+) on servers with more seasoned populations or guilds that take on more challenging content you will see that almost all of them are first and foremost ranged. The damage nerfs from a year ago have achieved a pretty balanced flex-damage type of tactic at large scale where groups generally do a couple of range bombs and then commit to more risky pushes. That is a good sign of a decent enough balance.

    Writing this I literally just came off a reset-night squad that had about 65v65 content, with ranged off-squads and towards the end I personally played a flanking approach alone without any support (including no superspeed) and did just fine. Most guild groups I play with also operate a two-support / three-ranged norm. Some of the damage classes are running flex-builds with range-melee weapon swaps but they are predominantly ranged and there are no pure melee builds whatsoever while there still are purely ranged builds. With those groups we also obliterate novice stack-and-roll groups with ease because we know how to coordinate damage and rip boons as well as larger pickup groups even if they have enough superspeed to skate above control conditions.

    Improving the value of cripple and chill would be alot more boring than what we see right now, including making the boring 40s-cd massive rip-bombs even stronger, and would just make ranged damage even more dominant than it is.

  • ArchonWing.9480ArchonWing.9480 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Don't you guys miss the meta where stab 1 and stab 2 had to coordinate with each other?

    No, I don't care for 40% guardian parties.

  • Threather.9354Threather.9354 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Zikory.6871 said:
    Wants more coordination but can't coordinate CC to counter super speed. Interesting reasoning for this complaint...

    Nice troll, we are trying to fix the game and you say "play better and just enjoy game in a bad state"

    Ri Ba - Charr of logic
    twitch.tv/ribatime
    ~Key to fixing WvW with minimal effort resides in my post history~

  • Threather.9354Threather.9354 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @ArchonWing.9480 said:

    Don't you guys miss the meta where stab 1 and stab 2 had to coordinate with each other?

    No, I don't care for 40% guardian parties.

    Doesnt have to be guardians, can be scrappers and revenants as stab 2 instead

    Ri Ba - Charr of logic
    twitch.tv/ribatime
    ~Key to fixing WvW with minimal effort resides in my post history~

  • ArchonWing.9480ArchonWing.9480 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Threather.9354 said:

    @ArchonWing.9480 said:

    Don't you guys miss the meta where stab 1 and stab 2 had to coordinate with each other?

    No, I don't care for 40% guardian parties.

    Doesnt have to be guardians, can be scrappers and revenants as stab 2 instead

    Doesn't matter. Point is rose colored glasses.

  • Threather.9354Threather.9354 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 12, 2021

    @ArchonWing.9480 said:

    @Threather.9354 said:

    @ArchonWing.9480 said:

    Don't you guys miss the meta where stab 1 and stab 2 had to coordinate with each other?

    No, I don't care for 40% guardian parties.

    Doesnt have to be guardians, can be scrappers and revenants as stab 2 instead

    Doesn't matter. Point is rose colored glasses.

    Nah, superspeed is obviously an issue. Lets say skill radiuses and objectives were designed to be certain amount with certain amount of movement speed and the people would take this much time to walk over them. Then they practically double the speed of everyone by giving superspeed that also makes them immune to cripples and chills. Obviously there is design flaw there. Small amount of superspeed like during HoT such as Revenant Elite fact and Tempest shout were fine because they were reactionary and on long cooldown but if the upkeep goes above 50%, you need to tune down characteristics of the buff.

    Ri Ba - Charr of logic
    twitch.tv/ribatime
    ~Key to fixing WvW with minimal effort resides in my post history~

  • Zikory.6871Zikory.6871 Member ✭✭✭

    @Threather.9354 said:

    @Zikory.6871 said:
    Wants more coordination but can't coordinate CC to counter super speed. Interesting reasoning for this complaint...

    Nice troll, we are trying to fix the game and you say "play better and just enjoy game in a bad state"

    Why do people always resort to name calling when people disagree with them?

    If everyone is a sonic, no1 will spend a full second on a field, sometimes they will even walk through it without taking any damage. Why do you guys think staff ele is deemed useless by strong groups (btw, not your group if you disagree)? Because it relies on fields.

    Nice Gatekeeping. Plenty of people play weaver with success since it still one of the highest damage dealers in large fights. Both CC and leading targets improve damage. I don't agree with this reason since "coordination" will work.

    Make zephyrite rune a must for "lot of superspeed" builds.

    Roaming maybe? Anyone running zeph is griefing your group. A bunch of worthless stats for ~1s when scrapper has 5 super speed skills. Or tempest, a whole rune set for 1s ss on the one skill that give ss... Again, I don't agree with this reason.

    Don't you guys miss the meta where stab 1 and stab 2 had to coordinate with each other? Time to go back there, scrappers can coordinate with revenants about superspeed, guardians can coordinate with other sources of stab. Nerf concentration stat and superspeed, thanks, right now it doesn't even feel like a multiplayer game as everyone has definite roles with no overlap or coordination.

    I don't know what to say to this. The multiplayer game doesn't feel like a multiplayer game? To you maybe. Running sub 25 plenty of classes have overlap and coordinate boons and skills. Because you choice not to doesn't mean plenty of groups don't...

    Btw flanking is impossible if stacking is necessity to match the speed of movement for engages. Superspeed as it is makes the gameplay less diverse and creative. No gankers, no flankers, no ranged tags, is this truly what we want? Stripped of all precious high skill and coordination moments.

    IMPOSSIBLE!!! Because timing SS with openings (coordinating with your TeAm) makes flanking "impossible". If both groups have SS, how can ranged groups not kite? Doesn't work for them or just not as good at coordinating?

    it is just boring.

    Solid reason for nerfs. This guys bored...

    I don't disagree that Super speed and Boon duration should be evaluated along with Healing, damage, cleanse ect. But your reasons specifically sound like l2p issues rather than game breaking...

    [KnT] Knights of the Temple

  • kamikharzeeh.8016kamikharzeeh.8016 Member ✭✭✭✭

    less superspeed fixes nothing. if the herald and scrapper can give us less speed boosts, size counts even more and the darned roamers on their naturally far2fast chars with the billions of ports and leaps can gank even more easy.

    i'll repeat myself once more, stop the nerfs. it's not getting any better with them. nerf glasscannonbuilds, mobility of selfish sets if anything. less fast and highdps pew pew... that'd change ganking, maybe.

    or just revert all dmg nerfs... so zergset have better cards against the glassy roamers. with the horrific aim that rev hammer skills by now got (thanks anet), it'd be great if every single one would actually do dmg. even direct hammerhits on thieves don't strip them 1/3 of their light armor health, what a joke. even hammer 11111ing does more than pressing the freaking skill buttons...

  • Jski.6180Jski.6180 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @DeceiverX.8361 said:

    @Jski.6180 said:
    It needs to stop coving over movement speed effects. The endless means of immunity to cripal and chill is not good for the game.

    It doesn't cover over them. The superspeed buff itself boosts mobility to the in-combat movespeed cap by brute force due to how much it provides.
    We don't actually see the effects a true 100% bonus would have because OOC is capped at what swiftness offers and the in-combat movespeed maximum is just a lower number threshold.

    Only way to make it less potent is hit the numbers, and I completely agree with OP that speed rune is also utterly broken and provides way too much for how easy it is to get permanent swiftness.

    Swiftness - or the 33% number it provides such as traited SotL and the likes, should be the best you can get for pure landspeed.

    @Dawdler.8521 said:
    Guess who this will hurt the most?

    Hint: its not the zerg.

    Good. The disparity in smallscale that this effect and RoS produces is honestly way bigger than in zerg play where so much harass happens at range, anyways. Any build lacking a ton of mobility and swiftness uptime is absolutely crippled in viability as it stands because of these effects being so prominent in-combat.

    Does not grant any movement speed increase while backpedaling or strafing.
    Only provides the 100% increase to movement speed while in combat. Outside of combat it provides the same 33% increase to movement speed as Swiftness.
    Makes target ignore chill and cripple movement slowing effects.
    Superspeed does not stack duration and new application will remove the old one even if it is longer duration.
    Affects Siege Golem in World vs World.
    

    From wiki.

    See ELE forms and you will get my views.

  • No thanks.

  • Threather.9354Threather.9354 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 13, 2021

    @Zikory.6871 said:

    @Threather.9354 said:

    @Zikory.6871 said:
    Wants more coordination but can't coordinate CC to counter super speed. Interesting reasoning for this complaint...

    Nice troll, we are trying to fix the game and you say "play better and just enjoy game in a bad state"

    Why do people always resort to name calling when people disagree with them?

    Its not namecalling, CC and AoE superspeed forcing people to stack superhard making gameplay boring are hardly related. Even if you spammed CC, you would have to stack to land that CC so you have speed to do so. CC is not counter to superspeed, it is counter to spreading and not sharing stability properly. If Id describe situation between you and I: For example for someone a mouse might be an insect and he points that out, someone else can call his words trolling because it just doesn't make any sense. CC would actually be more effective if people were slower, so it being counter to superspeed doesn't hold true, it is more of other way around, since chills and cripples count as CC (completely ignored by superspeed) and CC skills tend to have rather long cast times.

    If everyone is a sonic, no1 will spend a full second on a field, sometimes they will even walk through it without taking any damage. Why do you guys think staff ele is deemed useless by strong groups (btw, not your group if you disagree)? Because it relies on fields.

    Nice Gatekeeping. Plenty of people play weaver with success since it still one of the highest damage dealers in large fights. Both CC and leading targets improve damage. I don't agree with this reason since "coordination" will work.

    Lets say you CC and AoE bomb enemies with pulsing AoEs, they can just firebrand stunbreak and then you're useless. As staff ele groups were capable of coordinating pre scrapper meta for ranged pressure, right now they're more like solo bolo bombers, that is quite useless against strong groups that don't have a tail and know how to dodge in obvious chokepoints, and there is only so much multiplayer in that.

    Make zephyrite rune a must for "lot of superspeed" builds.

    Roaming maybe? Anyone running zeph is griefing your group. A bunch of worthless stats for ~1s when scrapper has 5 super speed skills. Or tempest, a whole rune set for 1s ss on the one skill that give ss... Again, I don't agree with this reason.

    Yes as it is, it is grieving, but if they make superspeed have less duration or potency, people might opt for zephyrite runes, I was asking to make zephyrite runes the go to for superspeed builds, not suggesting it already is. Diversity, that is what I want, in both gameplay and builds. Just 1 meta and combat pattern is boring. For 99% of people playing Tetris is fun at start but gets boring at some point, do we really want to cater to that 1% that love Tetris so much they dedicate their whole life to doing same thing over and over? Because that is what current meta is, Tetris, same thing over and over with small random factors. Single targeting? Dead. AoE bombing? Dead. Condi builds? Dead. Running at things ignoring all above and spamming same necro rotation? Alive.

    Don't you guys miss the meta where stab 1 and stab 2 had to coordinate with each other? Time to go back there, scrappers can coordinate with revenants about superspeed, guardians can coordinate with other sources of stab. Nerf concentration stat and superspeed, thanks, right now it doesn't even feel like a multiplayer game as everyone has definite roles with no overlap or coordination.

    I don't know what to say to this. The multiplayer game doesn't feel like a multiplayer game? To you maybe. Running sub 25 plenty of classes have overlap and coordinate boons and skills. Because you choice not to doesn't mean plenty of groups don't...

    Yes but at some point you will hit a wall on how far you can go and limits of your imagination. The meta is so dumbed down that very few people want to command or start the gamemode anymore.

    Btw flanking is impossible if stacking is necessity to match the speed of movement for engages. Superspeed as it is makes the gameplay less diverse and creative. No gankers, no flankers, no ranged tags, is this truly what we want? Stripped of all precious high skill and coordination moments.

    IMPOSSIBLE!!! Because timing SS with openings (coordinating with your TeAm) makes flanking "impossible". If both groups have SS, how can ranged groups not kite? Doesn't work for them or just not as good at coordinating?

    Overall it is as simple as splitting around your group and being forced to run scrappers in everything, in ranged groups and in melee groups. And that your AoEs will get less pulses off to mobile targets (and being mobile is easier than ever with firebrands providing so much stab and conditions being extinct). Obviously not only it forces you to always interact with people but also someone to be on scrapper duty while limiting build diversity by destroying effectiveness of pulsing AoE builds.

    it is just boring.

    Solid reason for nerfs. This guys bored...

    I don't disagree that Super speed and Boon duration should be evaluated along with Healing, damage, cleanse ect. But your reasons specifically sound like l2p issues rather than game breaking...

    L2P issues is not what you should worry about, what you should worry about is that maybe I have too many hours in the game and my opinion is not valid anymore. I compare the decisionmaking and movement to the past metas, and I can understand how someone that doesn't remember old metas or is a new player can not see how terrible it has gotten. The objective sizes, skill ranges and skill radii aren't just designed for this movement speed.

    Ri Ba - Charr of logic
    twitch.tv/ribatime
    ~Key to fixing WvW with minimal effort resides in my post history~

  • ArchonWing.9480ArchonWing.9480 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 13, 2021

    DPS ele is not weak because people aren't staying in AOEs. If that were true, than DPS guard would not be the rage now (sword of justice suffers from similar problems). And necros? There's plenty of boon strip around to counter stability. If you really want to balance. superspeed, you would just make it a boon that can be stripped.

    DPS ele is not preferred in organized groups, because it does not provide any group utility and has poor self sustain, thus it needs to be babied, and instead people would rather baby a more potent rev, power guard, power engi, or necro. Certainly, the damage nerfs should be reevaluated in spots as well.

  • Kovu.7560Kovu.7560 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 13, 2021

    AoE superspeed should be minimal and scrapper/holo superspeed is a little overtuned, but overall it's not -that- bad.
    I'd definitely put this lower on the list on nerfing/adjusting mobility in this game. We should really start by giving every leap and teleport in this game the Ride the Lightning treatment. Ancestral Grace sort of got it.

    Watching someone with superspeed & cripple hobble along is pretty amusing. =)

    ~ Kovu

    Ranger, Necromancer, Fort Aspenwood.

  • Jski.6180Jski.6180 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Kovu.7560 said:
    AoE superspeed should be minimal and scrapper/holo superspeed is a little overtuned, but overall it's not -that- bad.
    I'd definitely put this lower on the list on nerfing/adjusting mobility in this game. We should really start by giving every leap and teleport in this game the Ride the Lightning treatment. Ancestral Grace sort of got it.

    Watching someone with superspeed & cripple hobble along is pretty amusing. =)

    ~ Kovu

    For sure scraper/holo has too much super speed.

    The funnly thing even if it looks like a hobble they are still moving at 100%.

    See ELE forms and you will get my views.

  • cobbah.3102cobbah.3102 Member ✭✭✭

    OK lets delete Superspeed and Stealth problem solved , solutions are so simple .

  • DeceiverX.8361DeceiverX.8361 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Jski.6180 said:

    @DeceiverX.8361 said:

    @Jski.6180 said:
    It needs to stop coving over movement speed effects. The endless means of immunity to cripal and chill is not good for the game.

    It doesn't cover over them. The superspeed buff itself boosts mobility to the in-combat movespeed cap by brute force due to how much it provides.
    We don't actually see the effects a true 100% bonus would have because OOC is capped at what swiftness offers and the in-combat movespeed maximum is just a lower number threshold.

    Only way to make it less potent is hit the numbers, and I completely agree with OP that speed rune is also utterly broken and provides way too much for how easy it is to get permanent swiftness.

    Swiftness - or the 33% number it provides such as traited SotL and the likes, should be the best you can get for pure landspeed.

    @Dawdler.8521 said:
    Guess who this will hurt the most?

    Hint: its not the zerg.

    Good. The disparity in smallscale that this effect and RoS produces is honestly way bigger than in zerg play where so much harass happens at range, anyways. Any build lacking a ton of mobility and swiftness uptime is absolutely crippled in viability as it stands because of these effects being so prominent in-combat.

    Does not grant any movement speed increase while backpedaling or strafing.
    Only provides the 100% increase to movement speed while in combat. Outside of combat it provides the same 33% increase to movement speed as Swiftness.
    Makes target ignore chill and cripple movement slowing effects.
    Superspeed does not stack duration and new application will remove the old one even if it is longer duration.
    Affects Siege Golem in World vs World.
    

    From wiki.

    Weird, I'd just looked prior to posting and didn't see mentioning of it, however, the math does check out thinking about it in hindsight.
    Either way, I still support its removal.

    You sure that Sniper idea is as good as you thought it was gonna be?
    Because I think my original idea is better.

  • Jski.6180Jski.6180 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @DeceiverX.8361 said:

    @Jski.6180 said:

    @DeceiverX.8361 said:

    @Jski.6180 said:
    It needs to stop coving over movement speed effects. The endless means of immunity to cripal and chill is not good for the game.

    It doesn't cover over them. The superspeed buff itself boosts mobility to the in-combat movespeed cap by brute force due to how much it provides.
    We don't actually see the effects a true 100% bonus would have because OOC is capped at what swiftness offers and the in-combat movespeed maximum is just a lower number threshold.

    Only way to make it less potent is hit the numbers, and I completely agree with OP that speed rune is also utterly broken and provides way too much for how easy it is to get permanent swiftness.

    Swiftness - or the 33% number it provides such as traited SotL and the likes, should be the best you can get for pure landspeed.

    @Dawdler.8521 said:
    Guess who this will hurt the most?

    Hint: its not the zerg.

    Good. The disparity in smallscale that this effect and RoS produces is honestly way bigger than in zerg play where so much harass happens at range, anyways. Any build lacking a ton of mobility and swiftness uptime is absolutely crippled in viability as it stands because of these effects being so prominent in-combat.

    Does not grant any movement speed increase while backpedaling or strafing.
    Only provides the 100% increase to movement speed while in combat. Outside of combat it provides the same 33% increase to movement speed as Swiftness.
    Makes target ignore chill and cripple movement slowing effects.
    Superspeed does not stack duration and new application will remove the old one even if it is longer duration.
    Affects Siege Golem in World vs World.
    

    From wiki.

    Weird, I'd just looked prior to posting and didn't see mentioning of it, however, the math does check out thinking about it in hindsight.
    Either way, I still support its removal.

    Ya i do not know why it turned out like that in a copy past must be formatting or something. I like super speed a lot in the game but it should not be another hard counter to soft cc there just too many of them in the game now.

    See ELE forms and you will get my views.

  • I'm just gonna throw this out there. Op sounds like they're not very good and looking for something to justify their weak gameplay as not being their fault. The weaver comment really gave it away when I play with extremely strong weavers who's only problem is that they're squishy so they have to play on the edge of fights but that's their role anyways so doesn't really matter.

    @Threather.9354 said:

    @Zikory.6871 said:
    Wants more coordination but can't coordinate CC to counter super speed. Interesting reasoning for this complaint...

    Nice troll, we are trying to fix the game and you say "play better and just enjoy game in a bad state"

    The fact that op thinks being better at the game isn't an option, and that it constitutes trolling, just proves that they're upset by their own short comings.

  • KrHome.1920KrHome.1920 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 15, 2021

    @DeceiverX.8361 said:

    @Jski.6180 said:
    It needs to stop coving over movement speed effects. The endless means of immunity to cripal and chill is not good for the game.

    It doesn't cover over them. The superspeed buff itself boosts mobility to the in-combat movespeed cap by brute force due to how much it provides.
    We don't actually see the effects a true 100% bonus would have because OOC is capped at what swiftness offers and the in-combat movespeed maximum is just a lower number threshold.

    The in combat movement speed cap is the same as the out of combat movement speed cap - both is 400 units per second.

    Regarding the covering of movement impairing effects:

    Superspeed grants +100% movement speed, which results in that a chilled target with superspeed moves as fast as a non chilled target with swiftness:
    100% - 66% + 100% = 133% movement speed
    Superspeed has the effect of a not strip-able swiftness to a chilled target, which is absurd.

    Speed rune does only result in:
    100% - 66% + 66% = 100% movement speed
    Speed rune does also cover chill, but does not additionally put a swiftness-like effect on top that can not be stripped.

  • hunkamania.7561hunkamania.7561 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I'll have to say the engi superspeed is definitely over tuned

    Aurora Glade Server Leader

    [VR] Violent Resolution - SoS

  • ollbirtan.2915ollbirtan.2915 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Please nerf thief! OP mobility. Thanks!

  • Stand The Wall.6987Stand The Wall.6987 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 15, 2021

    @ArchonWing.9480 said:
    DPS ele is not weak because people aren't staying in AOEs. If that were true, than DPS guard would not be the rage now (sword of justice suffers from similar problems). And necros? There's plenty of boon strip around to counter stability. If you really want to balance. superspeed, you would just make it a boon that can be stripped.

    DPS ele is not preferred in organized groups, because it does not provide any group utility and has poor self sustain, thus it needs to be babied, and instead people would rather baby a more potent rev, power guard, power engi, or necro. Certainly, the damage nerfs should be reevaluated in spots as well.

    staff eles don't need to be babied. they got their damage nerfed and other classes can output similar damage with some actual team support, thats all. oh and yes, superspeed kind of does nerf ele cuz they rely solely on long cd aoes, namely meteor shower. other classes have way shorter cds so they can recoup their losses somewhat.

    te lazla otstara.
    fingers crossed meta ~

  • Threather.9354Threather.9354 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @ArchonWing.9480 said:
    DPS ele is not weak because people aren't staying in AOEs. If that were true, than DPS guard would not be the rage now (sword of justice suffers from similar problems). And necros? There's plenty of boon strip around to counter stability. If you really want to balance. superspeed, you would just make it a boon that can be stripped.

    DPS ele is not preferred in organized groups, because it does not provide any group utility and has poor self sustain, thus it needs to be babied, and instead people would rather baby a more potent rev, power guard, power engi, or necro. Certainly, the damage nerfs should be reevaluated in spots as well.

    DPS guard is indeed all the rage because sword of justice does massive damage within 1 second and punishes healers with low reaction time, while Lava fonts and whatever need 6 seconds (with correct fire traits) to reach maximum potency. The CC, misplay and stunbreak duration are all super short compared to ele fields.

    The 2 builds are completely different. For example DPS revenants were overpowered until the heal mantra and mace/shield meta came and provided aegis to block some of the revenants burst. Now guardians have pulsing stuff (aegis only blocks 1 instance of sword of justice) with similar burst as revenants.

    It is not that DPS guardians are amazing, it is just that other ranged builds feel bad. DPS guardian is just people making best of terrible state within the game. You could just run more scourges and get similar numbers with corrupts, support and CC on top.

    Ri Ba - Charr of logic
    twitch.tv/ribatime
    ~Key to fixing WvW with minimal effort resides in my post history~

  • Jski.6180Jski.6180 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Ele dps is week because of super speed AND resistances just another hard counter to soft cc.

    Anet needs to cap super speed at 3 sec. It would not stop near endless super speed but at least it would require skill to chain it right and realty super speed should be a short burst of speed not a stander boon for combat.

    See ELE forms and you will get my views.

  • Shroud.2307Shroud.2307 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I don't have any strong feelings about this, but I do have to say as a Necro, it is a colossal pain fighting anything without terrain to abuse when they have even one source of Super Speed.
    I'm not going to turn this in to a "waah, my main class is weak" type of discussion, but I do have to say that over time it has become a whole lot harder to survive in small scale or 1v1/X as a Necro. Soft CC used to be something Necro had a lot of to keep people away from it and cover for it's lack of scaling defenses, but with things like Super Speed and Sigil of Cleansing (and cleanses in general) becoming so prevalent, moderate-high access to Chill, Cripple and Fear has become a nearly irrelevant option.

    I think if Super Speed were to be changed it should just become something that is strictly a personal buff with only a few exceptions. Scrapper should have like, Speed of Synergy and that's all. Tempest could also keep "Eye of the Storm!" but maybe at a reduced duration. Say, 3 seconds instead. Otherwise, nothing else should be granting group Super Speed so if they want to have it, they'll need to slot it for themselves.

    Necro/Engi/Ranger/Rev | Maguuma | Diamond Legend
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  • ArchonWing.9480ArchonWing.9480 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 16, 2021

    @Threather.9354 said:

    @ArchonWing.9480 said:
    DPS ele is not weak because people aren't staying in AOEs. If that were true, than DPS guard would not be the rage now (sword of justice suffers from similar problems). And necros? There's plenty of boon strip around to counter stability. If you really want to balance. superspeed, you would just make it a boon that can be stripped.

    DPS ele is not preferred in organized groups, because it does not provide any group utility and has poor self sustain, thus it needs to be babied, and instead people would rather baby a more potent rev, power guard, power engi, or necro. Certainly, the damage nerfs should be reevaluated in spots as well.

    DPS guard is indeed all the rage because sword of justice does massive damage within 1 second and punishes healers with low reaction time, while Lava fonts and whatever need 6 seconds (with correct fire traits) to reach maximum potency. The CC, misplay and stunbreak duration are all super short compared to ele fields.

    No, one tick of SoJ isn't really that damaging. It comes more from the synergy between Symbolic Avenger and staff 2/3 which for some unknown reason does a ton of damage. You don't need a full channel of meteor storm or lava font either. I can hurt people even with a few hits. Regardless of your dps build, range isn't useful anyways as most bombs happen within 900 range (the same as necro stuff, for a reason!)

    The thing is that DPS guard can bring its own stab, group stunbreak, and condi clear. It can also easily keep up unscathed contender thanks to itself and firebrand support.

    Other builds like DPS engi brings its own condi clear as shredder gyro clears lots of condis in a field and the ever needed stealth/superspeed, and dps rev brings lots of stability and even damage reduction.

    Even if DPS ele matches or exceeds their damage, they bring little else to the table. Their own stab is lacking and survivability cannot be enhanced except by taking selfish utilities.

    Btw, you aren't wrong that other damage classes being in a bad shape is also why dps guardian rose. But that's more about the massive damage nerf patch, nerfing all damage regardless of context for classes.

  • alcopaul.2156alcopaul.2156 Member ✭✭✭

    if your guardian build can solo the overgrown grub, you can technically tank 4 zergs.

    Your Math Tèacher [MATH]
    Digital Headhuntaz [aBrA]

  • solemn.9608solemn.9608 Member ✭✭✭
    edited February 18, 2021

    @Threather.9354 said:
    Yep, the speed is just too much. Same applies to speed runes.

    If everyone is a sonic, no1 will spend a full second on a field, sometimes they will even walk through it without taking any damage. Why do you guys think staff ele is deemed useless by strong groups (btw, not your group if you disagree)? Because it relies on fields.

    Staff ele useless deemed by "strong groups"

    You mean groups still living in 2017 who have never played staff weaver a day in their life or think that marauder is "just as good" as full zerk with eagle rune.

    Source: myself/my inflated ego

    Tune down superspeed?
    Tune down stealth, cc and condi too while you're at it, why nerf superspeed first?

  • ArchonWing.9480ArchonWing.9480 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 18, 2021

    Useless is not the correct term anyways. More like "offmeta" meaning it doesn't fit into preferred comps by guilds that run a bit smaller and have limited space.

    There can be things that are objectively strong such as immob druid (which if you believed OP, doesn't work), but it's not considered a standard thing however it can still see play in groups with some more slots. Immob is the obvious counter to superspeed and also a reason why Tempest is preferred.

    And I have been certainly immob-locked and hit by 7k meteors with 2700 armor once in a while so "useless" is probably not true. Yes, everything is useless if everyone plays perfectly, but that's the point here-- not everyone plays perfectly and sometimes people get caught. Even me! xD

    The game's balance is pve trash, but it does have a little more variety than many give it credit for.

  • Threather.9354Threather.9354 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 19, 2021

    @solemn.9608 said:

    @Threather.9354 said:
    Yep, the speed is just too much. Same applies to speed runes.

    If everyone is a sonic, no1 will spend a full second on a field, sometimes they will even walk through it without taking any damage. Why do you guys think staff ele is deemed useless by strong groups (btw, not your group if you disagree)? Because it relies on fields.

    Staff ele useless deemed by "strong groups"

    You mean groups still living in 2017 who have never played staff weaver a day in their life or think that marauder is "just as good" as full zerk with eagle rune.

    Source: myself/my inflated ego

    Tune down superspeed?
    Tune down stealth, cc and condi too while you're at it, why nerf superspeed first?

    Yea tuning down durations of stealth, CC, stability, conditions and condition cleanse fields but not condition damage itself, is also great direction to take. Nobody likes the stealth bombs and perma stab from 1 firebrands. This is why I suggested nerf of concentration stat, but they could do same to expertise.

    Ri Ba - Charr of logic
    twitch.tv/ribatime
    ~Key to fixing WvW with minimal effort resides in my post history~

  • Jski.6180Jski.6180 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Threather.9354 said:

    @solemn.9608 said:

    @Threather.9354 said:
    Yep, the speed is just too much. Same applies to speed runes.

    If everyone is a sonic, no1 will spend a full second on a field, sometimes they will even walk through it without taking any damage. Why do you guys think staff ele is deemed useless by strong groups (btw, not your group if you disagree)? Because it relies on fields.

    Staff ele useless deemed by "strong groups"

    You mean groups still living in 2017 who have never played staff weaver a day in their life or think that marauder is "just as good" as full zerk with eagle rune.

    Source: myself/my inflated ego

    Tune down superspeed?
    Tune down stealth, cc and condi too while you're at it, why nerf superspeed first?

    Yea tuning down durations of stealth, CC, stability, conditions and condition cleanse fields but not condition damage itself, is also great direction to take. Nobody likes the stealth bombs and perma stab from 1 firebrands. This is why I suggested nerf of concentration stat, but they could do same to expertise.

    I just say cap boon max duration as well as super speed make concentration for boon effectiveness not duration.

    See ELE forms and you will get my views.