How does holosmith technology fits into lore? — Guild Wars 2 Forums
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How does holosmith technology fits into lore?

mov.1246mov.1246 Member ✭✭

I am a bit in a identity crisis with my engineer. It was always a pain in my eyes that holosmith doesnt seem to belong in guild wars nor in the engineers theme.

I explain why: i created my engi 8 years ago and i loved that this class uses raw and tinkered technology. With PoF we got holosmith as a elite spec, and there is my personal inner conflict. This doesnt seem logical to me, i use high technology weapons made of semi solid light, and some seconds later i use explosives made of steel, wood and blackpowder? How does this make sense from a technological and aesthetic view?

Now some lore thoughts, please correct me if i am wrong or missing some point.

I can not understand where the technology of holosmith came from? Yes, the lore tell us that elonians and zephyrites worked together and the result was to create constructs of semi solid light that can be used to damage foes. And this fact is creating a lot of questions.

As i understand correctly the zephyrites are nomads with airships, and using the magic of the four aspects. Their culture is to revere glint and live in peace. So why they would help to create a weapon technology? And they don't even use it themselves? On the other hand they doesnt seem to have the technological knowlegde to develop such a high-tech, if they are more tied to magic instead of technology?
Same goes for the elonian, they never seemed to me that they are technoloigical advanced enough to create holosmith technology.

And the next, holosmith and its light technology never see any other use in this game except engineers elite spec. The most technological advanced races seems to be asura with mostly magi-tech (portals, golemancy, waypoints...) and charr with steam-tech (tanks, cannons, weapons...).
Holosmith technology seems to be a lot more advanced as any other technology in this game. It is like hundreds of years ahead. And why other races dont use this technology? Light constructs could have a lot more other uses than just as weapon.

I hope you understand my point of view, holosmith doesnt belong to this game IMO because this technology seems to came out of nowhere with super high advanced technology, and nobody (except holosmith spec) uses it or takes refer to it.

I just want to enjoy my engineer again without feeling like holosmith doesnt belong to this game.
Maybe somebody can give me a new point of view?

Comments

  • I have absolutely no basis for this but aesthetically it feels like salvaged Forgotten technology. It just really has the look and feel of it. Considering that the Zephs are all about Glint, and Glint was all about the Forgotten, it's not a huge leap to wonder if perhaps they had access to some old Forgotten tech lying around that they buffed up, polished, and traded on.

    The Zephs trade a lot for the things they need to survive, as is my understanding, so if they found some Forgotten weapons tech they might actually sell it on to groups whom they believed were in need of such help, even though they'd be unwilling to interfere directly. Perhaps the threat of Joko was what allowed it to make it into a trade with the Elonians.

    After that, all that the Elonians would've had to do is retrofit it for use by humans with our own magical signatures and body types and they're good to go. With it being Forgotten tech it's a huge leap up from what engineers are normally using, hence the disparity and anachronism. This is all wild speculation of course but that's the best I can give you. The game's pretty vague with the wherewithal of holography tech.

    The way I look at it though is that this seems to be a little more advanced even than the asura were capable of—and who's more advanced with magitech than the asura? Only the Forgotten that I know of. I mean, the charr are making strides with technology—to the point where they have radio towers, radios, and electric dams now—but that isn't magitech like the Holosmith is.

    Ultimately, your guess is as good as mine—my guess is that it's Forgotten tech.

  • Randulf.7614Randulf.7614 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 12, 2021

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Baraz_Sharifi

    The zephyrites didn’t make a weapon. Elonian Engineers sought out and traded with them and used the sun crystals to develop the photon forge

    This should work well for you as it is a case of engineers seeking out new materials and using their own research skills to develop new technology.

    One of the early themes in GW2 was the development of new tech by races for combating Dragons and it helped create a unique fantasy Industrial Age. This fits in with that, especially as Asura have used laser style tech and other sci fi styles long before. What we are seeing are the Elonians breaking out into the wider world and embracing new tech with their cultural beliefs

    What sleep is here? What dreams there are in the unctuous coiling of the snakes mortal shuffling. weapon in my hand. My hand the arcing deathblow at the end of all things. The horror. The horror. I embrace it. . .

  • Live and learn, thanks Randulf. My Zeph lore is spotty at best.

  • Randulf.7614Randulf.7614 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Hypnowulf.7403 said:
    Live and learn, thanks Randulf. My Zeph lore is spotty at best.

    It's all good. One of the things they did in PoF which isn't always recognised is the profession lore they added via NPCs in the maps. I found some of them quite interesting

    What sleep is here? What dreams there are in the unctuous coiling of the snakes mortal shuffling. weapon in my hand. My hand the arcing deathblow at the end of all things. The horror. The horror. I embrace it. . .

  • Tyson.5160Tyson.5160 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Randulf.7614 said:

    @Hypnowulf.7403 said:
    Live and learn, thanks Randulf. My Zeph lore is spotty at best.

    It's all good. One of the things they did in PoF which isn't always recognised is the profession lore they added via NPCs in the maps. I found some of them quite interesting

    I would be neat if they just added a npcs to HoT for elite specs, that did the same thing. Nothing crazy just something with texts to explore the background of the classes.

  • Randulf.7614Randulf.7614 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Tyson.5160 said:

    @Randulf.7614 said:

    @Hypnowulf.7403 said:
    Live and learn, thanks Randulf. My Zeph lore is spotty at best.

    It's all good. One of the things they did in PoF which isn't always recognised is the profession lore they added via NPCs in the maps. I found some of them quite interesting

    I would be neat if they just added a npcs to HoT for elite specs, that did the same thing. Nothing crazy just something with texts to explore the background of the classes.

    Agreed. They could be part of some elite unit lost after the crash scattered across the maps that if we find, would give us some AP alongside some flavour dialogue for each one

    What sleep is here? What dreams there are in the unctuous coiling of the snakes mortal shuffling. weapon in my hand. My hand the arcing deathblow at the end of all things. The horror. The horror. I embrace it. . .

  • draxynnic.3719draxynnic.3719 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Randulf.7614 said:
    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Baraz_Sharifi

    The zephyrites didn’t make a weapon. Elonian Engineers sought out and traded with them and used the sun crystals to develop the photon forge

    This should work well for you as it is a case of engineers seeking out new materials and using their own research skills to develop new technology.

    One of the early themes in GW2 was the development of new tech by races for combating Dragons and it helped create a unique fantasy Industrial Age. This fits in with that, especially as Asura have used laser style tech and other sci fi styles long before. What we are seeing are the Elonians breaking out into the wider world and embracing new tech with their cultural beliefs

    Pretty much this.

    Some additional context is that solid-light hologram technology showed up in the original Zhaitan storyline, and then played a significant role in Season 1 (which is unfortunately still mostly unplayable) and shows up in Season 2, and can now be mostly seen during Dragon Bash events (or possibly the Super Adventure Box). Force fields are a staple in Asuran technology, and while the engineer is mostly based in charr tech, there were examples of force field tech being used by engineers before (Defence Field is probably the best known, but there are also the barriers created by Experimental Turrets).

    The holograms in the earlier content are probably, essentially, force fields in the shape of monsters or soldiers. Holosmith technology is, basically, weaponised, short-term force fields. How it is that the Elonian engineers picked it up - maybe the Order of Whispers brought in some asura tech, or maybe it was developed locally in a parallel path - but if anything, the tech that Scarlet stole from Lion's Arch was more advanced than anything the holosmith does. Holosmiths mostly just used it to create weapons, after all.

    Possibly that's where the Zephyrite crystals came in - the Elonians didn't have access to asura power sources, so they used a power source that was available.

    So, the precedent exists for force field technology to exist. Holosmith turns it up from being a simple barrier to shaping it into blades, hammers, and projectiles for offensive use. They still don't take it to the level seen in Dragon Bash of creating holographic monsters capable of replicating all the attacks that monster was capable of.

    When it comes to the Zephyrites... they're fairly pacifistic when it comes to mortals, but they are fully on board with helping with fighting dragon minions or Elder Dragons themselves when called for by Glint's plan. They helped make the dragonblood spears, including the final one that killed Kralkatorrik, and I think lore-wise they made all of the dragonblood weapons used by NPCs (such as Logan) as well. So they're not above helping in weapons manufacture as long as the weapons are being used in what they consider to be a good cause.

    As for the anachronicity you observe: Fluffwise, a large part of the explanation might well be availability. Charr generally avoid using magic in their technology (although given how much magic soaks into the environment of Tyria, sometimes it sneaks in to the materials they use, and they seem to be growing more comfortable with it now), but when they find something that works, they run up a full assembly line production and distribute the plans widely unless there's a reason not to. Charr tech also gets tested fairly thoroughly, so by the time it gets mass-produced, it's generally fairly reliable. So, regardless of whether the engineer makes their own tech or acquires it off someone else, charr tech and plans to work from are fairly readily available.

    Asura tech, on the other hand, is often made by spellcasters, making it impractical to be made by someone who doesn't have that capability. It's also often made as custom jobs by the krewe who invented it, which jealously guard the plans. There are exceptions (particularly in the Inquest and the sub-organisations of the Pact, which disseminate blueprints internally for the good of the organisation), but even then, it's often not practical to mass-produce because their creation requires one or more spellcasters to enchant the item, and those spellcasters might be in short supply (and engineers are generally engineers because they are not experts in wielding magic directly).

    There's probably also a degree of Stargate-esque "more advanced technology isn't necessarily more effective" as well.

    Out-of-universe, of course, the reason is probably that ArenaNet wanted the engineer to have a particular feel, and a lot of asura magitech might just end up making it feel like just another spellcaster, just one that uses rifles and pistols instead of staves and scepters.

  • Dawdler.8521Dawdler.8521 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 13, 2021

    @draxynnic.3719 said:

    @Randulf.7614 said:
    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Baraz_Sharifi

    The zephyrites didn’t make a weapon. Elonian Engineers sought out and traded with them and used the sun crystals to develop the photon forge

    This should work well for you as it is a case of engineers seeking out new materials and using their own research skills to develop new technology.

    One of the early themes in GW2 was the development of new tech by races for combating Dragons and it helped create a unique fantasy Industrial Age. This fits in with that, especially as Asura have used laser style tech and other sci fi styles long before. What we are seeing are the Elonians breaking out into the wider world and embracing new tech with their cultural beliefs

    Pretty much this.

    Some additional context is that solid-light hologram technology showed up in the original Zhaitan storyline, and then played a significant role in Season 1 (which is unfortunately still mostly unplayable) and shows up in Season 2, and can now be mostly seen during Dragon Bash events (or possibly the Super Adventure Box). Force fields are a staple in Asuran technology, and while the engineer is mostly based in charr tech, there were examples of force field tech being used by engineers before (Defence Field is probably the best known, but there are also the barriers created by Experimental Turrets).

    The holograms in the earlier content are probably, essentially, force fields in the shape of monsters or soldiers. Holosmith technology is, basically, weaponised, short-term force fields. How it is that the Elonian engineers picked it up - maybe the Order of Whispers brought in some asura tech, or maybe it was developed locally in a parallel path - but if anything, the tech that Scarlet stole from Lion's Arch was more advanced than anything the holosmith does. Holosmiths mostly just used it to create weapons, after all.

    Possibly that's where the Zephyrite crystals came in - the Elonians didn't have access to asura power sources, so they used a power source that was available.

    So, the precedent exists for force field technology to exist. Holosmith turns it up from being a simple barrier to shaping it into blades, hammers, and projectiles for offensive use. They still don't take it to the level seen in Dragon Bash of creating holographic monsters capable of replicating all the attacks that monster was capable of.

    When it comes to the Zephyrites... they're fairly pacifistic when it comes to mortals, but they are fully on board with helping with fighting dragon minions or Elder Dragons themselves when called for by Glint's plan. They helped make the dragonblood spears, including the final one that killed Kralkatorrik, and I think lore-wise they made all of the dragonblood weapons used by NPCs (such as Logan) as well. So they're not above helping in weapons manufacture as long as the weapons are being used in what they consider to be a good cause.

    As for the anachronicity you observe: Fluffwise, a large part of the explanation might well be availability. Charr generally avoid using magic in their technology (although given how much magic soaks into the environment of Tyria, sometimes it sneaks in to the materials they use, and they seem to be growing more comfortable with it now), but when they find something that works, they run up a full assembly line production and distribute the plans widely unless there's a reason not to. Charr tech also gets tested fairly thoroughly, so by the time it gets mass-produced, it's generally fairly reliable. So, regardless of whether the engineer makes their own tech or acquires it off someone else, charr tech and plans to work from are fairly readily available.

    Asura tech, on the other hand, is often made by spellcasters, making it impractical to be made by someone who doesn't have that capability. It's also often made as custom jobs by the krewe who invented it, which jealously guard the plans. There are exceptions (particularly in the Inquest and the sub-organisations of the Pact, which disseminate blueprints internally for the good of the organisation), but even then, it's often not practical to mass-produce because their creation requires one or more spellcasters to enchant the item, and those spellcasters might be in short supply (and engineers are generally engineers because they are not experts in wielding magic directly).

    TL;DR GW2 vanilla had Charr tech, HoT made use of advanced engineer tech from the Asura to improve Charr tech (such as gyros, Charr couldnt get their helos working until Asura fixed them, and force fields on turrets etc), PoF further advanced the Asura tech to make it both more offensive and defensive.

    Engineer is the literal example that Asura are the master race.

    gaggle - /ˈɡaɡ(ə)l/ - noun
    A disorderly group of Asura.
    "The gaggle of Asura tried to agree on whether a phase-shifted thermonuclear energy matrix was sufficiently powerful for a device capable of heating bread"

  • @Dawdler.8521 said:
    TL;DR GW2 vanilla had Charr tech, HoT made use of advanced engineer tech from the Asura to improve Charr tech (such as gyros, Charr couldnt get their helos working until Asura fixed them, and force fields on turrets etc), PoF further advanced the Asura tech to make it both more offensive and defensive.

    Engineer is the literal example that Asura are the master race.

    Not really. While asura and humans assisted with developing airships, I don't think this is ever said for choppers - as far as we know, choppers are either pure charr, or "charr + generic other races". Scrappers, and by extention gyros, don't utilize asura magitech as far as we know, as the term comes straight from charr society and the little lore we have on scrappers is literally that they took their scavenger behavior and knowledge and brought it to the battlefield. Scrappers, for all intents and purposes, are 100% charr.

    Similarly, while the Holosmith utilizes hexegonal patterns which frequently appear in asura magitech, there is no indication in the lore that asura were at all involved with the Holosmith development (though I would argue this would have made more sense to me, if it was the asura's take on engineers amplified by Zephyrite sun crystals, instead of the Elonian take on engineers).

    In other words:

    • Engineers - generic cross-species beginners
    • Scrappers - charr-specific engineers
    • Holosmiths - Elonian-specific engineers

    So far, we've not seen our asura specific engineers in specializations, just through NPCs like golemancers and the like.

    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.

  • Dawdler.8521Dawdler.8521 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 16, 2021

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @Dawdler.8521 said:
    TL;DR GW2 vanilla had Charr tech, HoT made use of advanced engineer tech from the Asura to improve Charr tech (such as gyros, Charr couldnt get their helos working until Asura fixed them, and force fields on turrets etc), PoF further advanced the Asura tech to make it both more offensive and defensive.

    Engineer is the literal example that Asura are the master race.

    Not really. While asura and humans assisted with developing airships, I don't think this is ever said for choppers - as far as we know, choppers are either pure charr, or "charr + generic other races". Scrappers, and by extention gyros, don't utilize asura magitech as far as we know, as the term comes straight from charr society and the little lore we have on scrappers is literally that they took their scavenger behavior and knowledge and brought it to the battlefield. Scrappers, for all intents and purposes, are 100% charr.

    Similarly, while the Holosmith utilizes hexegonal patterns which frequently appear in asura magitech, there is no indication in the lore that asura were at all involved with the Holosmith development (though I would argue this would have made more sense to me, if it was the asura's take on engineers amplified by Zephyrite sun crystals, instead of the Elonian take on engineers).

    In other words:

    • Engineers - generic cross-species beginners
    • Scrappers - charr-specific engineers
    • Holosmiths - Elonian-specific engineers

    So far, we've not seen our asura specific engineers in specializations, just through NPCs like golemancers and the like.

    I highly disagree. It's heavily implied that the Charr did not get the helos to work, it was the union of the species and in that union only the Asura would be able to do it, hardly Norn or Humans:

    The original prototype was designed by Kailani the Foolhardy, though the prototype never managed to maintain flight. When the Pact was formed, they obtained the plans for Kailani's chopper and improved upon it, making it a working flying vessel

    The Charr is clever enough to figure out how to make an engine to drive a rotor, but that's not flight. They needed Asuran magitech for gyros, which made the Charr helicopter practical. In terms of associated tech, for example the Technomancy Blueprint for Astralaria contain Charr gearboxes, Aetherblade gearboxes, steam cogs and stabilizing gyros.

    In addition, we see the appearance of a whirling gyroscope in Rata Novus archeotech collection, which IMO would again heavily imply the gyroscope is Asuran magitech. As far as I know, there is no reference to gyros for the Charr, but if you can find evidence for it go ahead.

    The ONLY way one can imply that that scrappers are "100% Charr" is by going by the scrapper description:

    ...engineers that discover the wreckage of the Pact fleet can choose to learn the ways of the resourceful scrappers.

    The Charr engineers rummaged through wrecked garbage and stole Asuran magitech to make the scrapper weaponry and equipment. Typical Charr to say it's 100% Charr after that, I guess.

    gaggle - /ˈɡaɡ(ə)l/ - noun
    A disorderly group of Asura.
    "The gaggle of Asura tried to agree on whether a phase-shifted thermonuclear energy matrix was sufficiently powerful for a device capable of heating bread"

  • draxynnic.3719draxynnic.3719 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I'd beware of saying that it's hardly humans. Humans are specifically noted to have had a role in airships, and it has been noted that there are some areas in which humans are still ahead of either, including harnessing the wind for power or propulsion (something that charr and asura kinda just bypassed). It's entirely possible that humans have had some contributions in the areas of aerodynamics and how to set up control surfaces that neither charr nor asura would have considered.

    That said, I believe it HAS been explicitly stated that part of what the scrappers were scavenging was asura magitech from the crashed Pact fleet, so there is some asura in there. In the form of charr scavenging and repurposing asura technology, to be sure, but it is in there.

  • Dawdler.8521Dawdler.8521 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 16, 2021

    @draxynnic.3719 said:
    I'd beware of saying that it's hardly humans. Humans are specifically noted to have had a role in airships, and it has been noted that there are some areas in which humans are still ahead of either, including harnessing the wind for power or propulsion (something that charr and asura kinda just bypassed). It's entirely possible that humans have had some contributions in the areas of aerodynamics and how to set up control surfaces that neither charr nor asura would have considered.

    That said, I believe it HAS been explicitly stated that part of what the scrappers were scavenging was asura magitech from the crashed Pact fleet, so there is some asura in there. In the form of charr scavenging and repurposing asura technology, to be sure, but it is in there.

    But we are are talking about the technology specific to the scrapper, not an entire helicopter or airship - the gyros or for example the hammer being able to harness lightning. And as you say... that part is Asuran magitech. So my point still stands.

    Whether Charr built the frame of an airship, Norn made the wooden deck and Humans attached little flags to it because they where "helping" is irrelevant.

    gaggle - /ˈɡaɡ(ə)l/ - noun
    A disorderly group of Asura.
    "The gaggle of Asura tried to agree on whether a phase-shifted thermonuclear energy matrix was sufficiently powerful for a device capable of heating bread"

  • The Greyhawk.9107The Greyhawk.9107 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Dawdler.8521 said:

    @draxynnic.3719 said:
    I'd beware of saying that it's hardly humans. Humans are specifically noted to have had a role in airships, and it has been noted that there are some areas in which humans are still ahead of either, including harnessing the wind for power or propulsion (something that charr and asura kinda just bypassed). It's entirely possible that humans have had some contributions in the areas of aerodynamics and how to set up control surfaces that neither charr nor asura would have considered.

    That said, I believe it HAS been explicitly stated that part of what the scrappers were scavenging was asura magitech from the crashed Pact fleet, so there is some asura in there. In the form of charr scavenging and repurposing asura technology, to be sure, but it is in there.

    But we are are talking about the technology specific to the scrapper, not an entire helicopter or airship - the gyros or for example the hammer being able to harness lightning. And as you say... that part is Asuran magitech. So my point still stands.

    Whether Charr built the frame of an airship, Norn made the wooden deck and Humans attached little flags to it because they where "helping" is irrelevant.

    "Attached little flags"? Are you being deliberately obtuse or...something else? The Krytan Humans developed the most important part of the airships: the dirigible balloon.

    You do know that asura are fictional, right? I think you and a few others here have been forgetting that fact.

    Hate Is Fuel.

  • Dawdler.8521Dawdler.8521 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @The Greyhawk.9107 said:

    @Dawdler.8521 said:

    @draxynnic.3719 said:
    I'd beware of saying that it's hardly humans. Humans are specifically noted to have had a role in airships, and it has been noted that there are some areas in which humans are still ahead of either, including harnessing the wind for power or propulsion (something that charr and asura kinda just bypassed). It's entirely possible that humans have had some contributions in the areas of aerodynamics and how to set up control surfaces that neither charr nor asura would have considered.

    That said, I believe it HAS been explicitly stated that part of what the scrappers were scavenging was asura magitech from the crashed Pact fleet, so there is some asura in there. In the form of charr scavenging and repurposing asura technology, to be sure, but it is in there.

    But we are are talking about the technology specific to the scrapper, not an entire helicopter or airship - the gyros or for example the hammer being able to harness lightning. And as you say... that part is Asuran magitech. So my point still stands.

    Whether Charr built the frame of an airship, Norn made the wooden deck and Humans attached little flags to it because they where "helping" is irrelevant.

    "Attached little flags"? Are you being deliberately obtuse or...something else? The Krytan Humans developed the most important part of the airships: the dirigible balloon.

    You do know that asura are fictional, right? I think you and a few others here have been forgetting that fact.

    Well bookahs are experts at being full of hot air so that actually makes sense.

    gaggle - /ˈɡaɡ(ə)l/ - noun
    A disorderly group of Asura.
    "The gaggle of Asura tried to agree on whether a phase-shifted thermonuclear energy matrix was sufficiently powerful for a device capable of heating bread"

  • The Greyhawk.9107The Greyhawk.9107 Member ✭✭✭✭

    .......
    ಠ_ಠ

    Hate Is Fuel.

  • ugrakarma.9416ugrakarma.9416 Member ✭✭✭✭

    most of POF specs to me seems very random and "unfit" with few exceptions.

    but i understand they get heavy inspiration from "Jedi" thematics, theres a movie with a desert scenario, and probably they took inspiration in it, light saber+desert+"forgeman'.

    i hope we got more aestetichal/lore wise specs in EoD.

    main pvp: Khel the Undead(power reaper).

  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 19, 2021

    @Dawdler.8521 said:
    I highly disagree. It's heavily implied that the Charr did not get the helos to work, it was the union of the species and in that union only the Asura would be able to do it, hardly Norn or Humans:

    The original prototype was designed by Kailani the Foolhardy, though the prototype never managed to maintain flight. When the Pact was formed, they obtained the plans for Kailani's chopper and improved upon it, making it a working flying vessel

    The Charr is clever enough to figure out how to make an engine to drive a rotor, but that's not flight. They needed Asuran magitech for gyros, which made the Charr helicopter practical. In terms of associated tech, for example the Technomancy Blueprint for Astralaria contain Charr gearboxes, Aetherblade gearboxes, steam cogs and stabilizing gyros.

    A bit of irony that I am the one who wrote that, but this actually goes off of the general theme of the Pact taking charr tech and creating improved versions. We don't actually know how far the charr got in developing the choppers, and this says nothing about gyros which are a lot smaller (smaller = less weight = easier to make flight worthy). Furthermore, there is zero indication of which races assisted in improving what, other than "charr, human, and asura" being attributed to airships.

    In the cases of airships, choppers, and submarines, the charr created the prototypes for all three alone - and in at least one case, had a working prototype. Given how charr function as a society, I don't think that the Pact would get their hands on non-working prototypes at all from the charr, at that. Which implies that between Fields of Ruins and Straights of Devastation, the charr had working choppers.

    In addition, we see the appearance of a whirling gyroscope in Rata Novus archeotech collection, which IMO would again heavily imply the gyroscope is Asuran magitech. As far as I know, there is no reference to gyros for the Charr, but if you can find evidence for it go ahead.

    You do realize that multiple cultures can simultaneously develop similar tech in parallel, right?

    [EDIT: So I just wiki'd the Astralaria tech you mention. The Stabilizing Gyroscope comes from Molten Facility, meaning that is dredge or charr technology, and not asuran. Proving that gyroscopes were developed in parallel by at least two (psuedo)isolationist communities - Rata Novus and dredge - or developed in parallel by Rata Novus and charr, depending on how much stolen tech the Molten Alliance had.]

    Rata Novus having such is actually argument against gyros being asura tech, in my opinion, because Rata Novus were isolationists and did not share their tech even with other asura. And as you noted, the scrappers were notworthy of scavenging the Pact fleet - note that "the Pact Fleet" refers to the airships, not choppers.

    So at best, Scrapper would be taking charr ideology to scavenge charr, human, and asura technology. Not "pure asura magitech".

    Should be noted further that gyros have zero visual magitech in them, and asura tech is always more magical than technological.

    @Dawdler.8521 said:

    @draxynnic.3719 said:
    I'd beware of saying that it's hardly humans. Humans are specifically noted to have had a role in airships, and it has been noted that there are some areas in which humans are still ahead of either, including harnessing the wind for power or propulsion (something that charr and asura kinda just bypassed). It's entirely possible that humans have had some contributions in the areas of aerodynamics and how to set up control surfaces that neither charr nor asura would have considered.

    That said, I believe it HAS been explicitly stated that part of what the scrappers were scavenging was asura magitech from the crashed Pact fleet, so there is some asura in there. In the form of charr scavenging and repurposing asura technology, to be sure, but it is in there.

    But we are are talking about the technology specific to the scrapper, not an entire helicopter or airship - the gyros or for example the hammer being able to harness lightning. And as you say... that part is Asuran magitech. So my point still stands.

    Whether Charr built the frame of an airship, Norn made the wooden deck and Humans attached little flags to it because they where "helping" is irrelevant.

    In regards to the lightning hammer bit, we have this charr dialogue:

    Dayol Stormwatcher: I have a thought: lightning, whether from the sky or from an elementalist's wand, delivers a physical impact. I believe there's a way to harness that power.
    PC: What for?
    Dayol Stormwatcher: To replace steam, of course. Steam is so unpredictable. Imagine the possibilities of lightning.

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Dayol_Stormwatcher

    So the idea of harnessing lightning is very much established as being charr. There's also brand lightning conductors in the Ascalonian dragonbrand (specifically, NW Fields of Ruin).

    I don't think there's anything solid that specifies "this or that is specifically asuran tech" in the scrapper. And even if there was some asuratech in the scrapper, there's still none in the Holosmith.

    Whether Charr built the frame of an airship, Norn made the wooden deck and Humans attached little flags to it because they where "helping" is irrelevant.

    Charr did far more than "built the frame". They created the prototype alone:

    This craft may have begun as a charr prototype, but it was improved on by the Pact and it takes a keen mind to pilot it.

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Pilot_Wanni

    My understanding was that the charr created the engine that make the navigation and propulsion systems function, humans brought in the hot air balloon for non-magic buoyancy, and asura connected it all together with improvements. It would thus be the asura who were "helping", not the other races.

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