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Suggestion: WvW-only legendary equipment

Hello and thank you for reading.

As you're well aware the stat difference between exotic to ascended is quite significant, especially on the weapons.

I've discussed this a lot lately with friends and returning players and WvW is one key interest that's gotten more and more difficult to get into over the years.
With ranks, builds and equipment maxed on veteran players, there's actually a big gap between their performance and that of new players. If not for the lack of rewards, there's actually still quite a competitive scene with certain guilds and commanders with an 'closed tag'. Meaning there's less room for creativity and certain meta classes and builds will be picked over others. As you can imagine, the format is simply less rewarding like this for newer players, while they provide less to your team and server.

Now with ArenaNet pushing build templates and all, wouldn't it be about the right time to allow players to experiment with this on an even playing field? To eliminate the raw stat difference I would suggest WvW-only equipment with legendary stats, earned through WvW currency and only usable in WvW, allowing everyone to enjoy a 'maxed' character in any and all PvP formats. So long as it's easily accessible, you could even consider disallowing transmutations.

So what are your thoughts about this? Has the introduction of WvW ranks, or even ascended equipment before that already eliminated the game's original mentality of rewarding skillful play? Is this too late into the game that players who 'worked' on their build, gear and rank would feel neglected? Would it further emphatize and solidify the 'meta' and in doing so, further lead to a dissatified consensus on the game's balance issues? Or would the renewed interest be more of a hook to include newer players? What do you think?

Comments

  • Most of the gap in performance comes from organization, communication and skill. WvW ranks have no large impact, you kind of need the warclaw and the glider but you get that really fast. Exotic equipment is really cheap, perfectly fine in most cases and ascended is not that hard to get if you really want to have it. After a while you are flooded with ascended gear. Meta is mostly defined by how ANet balances skills/traits or lack there of. I don't think there is a need for this. People who enjoy this kind of content already play it, to hook more people you would probably need better rewards.

  • Gorani.7205Gorani.7205 Member ✭✭✭

    There are a lot of statements, assumptions and things in the OP. Let me reply to a few things:
    "difference between exotics and ascended" - I consider the difference between running "full food" and meta-builds (e.g. like the current Condi Herald) a more decisive difference (on top of player skill) than the difference between exotics and ascended. I think you should not forget that WvW is an asymmetric format by design, because I can't cover everything that is happening in terms of balance between 1vs1 and zerg vs. zerg.
    "the less room for creativity and builds..." - has little to do with stats on gear than with the meta given by (the lack of) skill balance in game. An equally sized group of organized players on exotic gear with meta-builds will very likely be more effective than a PUG group of players with ascended gear that runs a variety builds (that serve a WvW purpose like fast map travel, but not a joint group strike).
    "less rewarding like this for newer players..." - newer players (to WvW) need guidance on what to do in WvW more than stats. If they play like open world PvE or PvP, they are not effective in WvW. I can have the best PvP players in my team that fail at setting up siege by not carrying supply or revealing themselves at sentries or watchtowers or PvE players that just stand outside circles and do not contest on camp defends.

    stat change gear in general

    You want to basically give everyone ascended level amulets from PvP and a similar customize function, at least that's what I am reading from your post.
    This devalues current ascended gear created by WvW players, earned the hard way the past years, especially the Mistforged stat-swap armour already in place. A big no-no to me.
    "new players" from the realm of PvE will very likely have already access to several different exotic armour and weapons, just by trying to follow the (living) story, which rewards exotic weapons and armour, sometimes even stat-selectable boxes. Not to mention being able to buy ascended trinkets from LS map currency on the fly from stockpiles in the vault collected by even the most casual open world gameplay. Fractals and Raids will provide PvE players with way more ascended gear than WvW will ever be able to provide and those reward boxes will be found in every PvE player's vault. New players from PvP will have tournament tickets for ascended gear and get gold (which they don't really need for they game type, because of amulets) as a resource to outfit themselves for WvW, should they need to.

    So, no. I don't think your idea is something that should be pursued or will solve the problem of getting new players (from other game types) to WvW.

  • Dawdler.8521Dawdler.8521 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Are you implying that cheap ascended gear with freely selectable stats isnt "easily accessible"?

    gaggle - /ˈɡaɡ(ə)l/ - noun
    A disorderly group of Asura.
    "The gaggle of Asura tried to agree on whether a phase-shifted thermonuclear energy matrix was sufficiently powerful for a device capable of heating bread"

  • Voltekka.2375Voltekka.2375 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Oooooor -and this may sound crazy- just make regular wvw legendary armor!

  • Infusion.7149Infusion.7149 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 13, 2021

    There's legendary WvW armor, ring , and backpiece, plus you can get legendary weapons off the Trading Post. There's ascended trinkets that are stat selectable.

    The biggest stat bonus is from an ascended weapon (~5%). Armor isn't as large a contributor. Trinkets + ring can be obtained via mist trinkets or going to Bjora Marches for maybe 15 minutes to get eternal ice for trinkets.

    I think the WvW mastery system could use toning down in terms of the ranks required for someone to have a full experience but the idea that ascended is not accessible is ludicrous.

    If you only WvW you can get legendary armor (by WvW upgrade), weapon (off trading post), rings (slumbering Conflux + Conflux), and backpiece.

    If you want to propose legendary WvW equipment, the only things it's truly missing are:
    Amulet - PvP only right now. Given no infusions are put into it this isn't a priority , just get eternal ice shard Asgeir's Amulets.
    Trinkets - this is PvE only (with many Jumping Puzzles) and only comes one-off so you can't gear more than one character with it anyhow

    If we ever get legendary trinkets then I'd rather have no effect by the way.

  • kamikharzeeh.8016kamikharzeeh.8016 Member ✭✭✭✭

    the one thing that is indeed missing is a legendary weapon skinset... in spvp u can technically get legy weapon boxes from performing hightier, Wvw doesn't have anything there.

    and the performance difference is NOT gear based. a ton of people does not use group sets, does not coordinate themselves, just does random things and gets cleaned up and farmed easily. i learnt that on learning scrouge, it was supereasy to do crazy work wtih "only" exotic gear. the big dmg comes from the right buttons, the ascended gear is only the final min/maxing to kill a tiny bit faster and to live 1 second longer under heavy pressure.

    imo the majority of the current Wvw playerbase (90%~) is just far too casual, therefore u cannot expect any performance. it's about knowing what button to press when, and when hammer them to survive + to kill things. in 50ish opentag groups, the dmg often comes only from 10 players only.

    wvw ranks could be just old players that got them basically for free, in totally different metagames. i felt there should be a lot more Wvw masteries... they are maxed out pretty fast. u don't need all to be "fully functionable"... the comfyness ones first, base warclaw one, then either ram or catapult maxed out, those are the core ones.

    what i agree with is, YES more rewards for actual performance would be great. the link system has to go still tho, it's pretty bad for anything.

    but no... "free" legendary wvw-only armor wouldn't be too great, since the wvw-legy armor is costing a crazy amount of timegate (claim ticket wvw) materials, so it'd be really slap those player who made some of these hard. i don't think that'd be fair. Wvw is meant to be a very hightier Endgame-mode, it just got kittenized during the years, after Anet for odd reasons (players zerg through nights anyways for worthless ppt even still) ... the wvw rewards for the tournaments back in the days been ascended stuff, which would by now be legendary stuff. u can be sure that this'd be made people try again to capture things.

    every single serious player doesn't give 1 kitten about holding things in the end. garrison keeps yes, bc they're kinda comfyness point. but all others? rather not, also since the scouting often is extremly lackluster. can be sure that there'd be more discipline if you could earn a legendary choice box for "winning t1" (ascended in 2013/4 was probably of similar worth as legendaries are now - roughly 2000 gold.)

  • The assumption I'm making is from the perspective of a new player, new to all formats. While in PvP there's no stat difference, I feel the level playing field is gated in WvW.
    I've had friends who leveled their first characters in WvW like back when the game launched. Even for returning players or recent adopters, there's still less incentive to create gear fit for anything other than their assumed 'meta' build first, nevermind stacking their inventory space with equipment for i.e. roaming or untested builds.

    Having said that, I have to agree that the few must-have ranks are easily attained on active player accounts and aren't really an issue, especially since the warclaw stomp got removed.

  • kamikharzeeh.8016kamikharzeeh.8016 Member ✭✭✭✭

    for a (sorta competitive) endgame format (since you use your "real gear" unlike in spvp) it has even quite easy access to everything. if u combine spvp and wvw, you get a full armor of exotic rarity with free choice stats straight away, and rather fast also one of the legendary backs (at least the asc variant goes quite quick)

  • @JorneMormel.9850 said:
    Hello and thank you for reading.

    As you're well aware the stat difference between exotic to ascended is quite significant, especially on the weapons.

    I've discussed this a lot lately with friends and returning players and WvW is one key interest that's gotten more and more difficult to get into over the years.
    With ranks, builds and equipment maxed on veteran players, there's actually a big gap between their performance and that of new players. If not for the lack of rewards, there's actually still quite a competitive scene with certain guilds and commanders with an 'closed tag'. Meaning there's less room for creativity and certain meta classes and builds will be picked over others. As you can imagine, the format is simply less rewarding like this for newer players, while they provide less to your team and server.

    You only need to worry about ascended trinkets to start. As somebody who just got into wvw last November after not playing the game since 2014, there isn't a large gap between new and old players. I played with only ascended trinkets for a while and topped dps because I had the individual mechanical ability to do it. I still play most of my classes with only ascended trinkets because certain stat types, minstrel, are very expensive so I take the cheap way out.

    The idea that just because a guild is playing private tag means you can't experiment is kind of a joke too. When you first join that absolutely true because you have to prove you're a skilled player and not just some random who doesn't know what they're doing. I routinely test new traits and builds with my guild group because I've shown them that I can perform and my tests are worthwhile. As an example, the meta scrapper build runs applied force but I refuse to run a trash trait so I run kinetic stabilizers instead. It also plays bulwark gyro but I got a lot of sbi players, in and out of my guild, to swap to shredder after seeing another player use it to great effect.

    People just get these weird ideas in their head about how inaccessible wvw is for random reasons that generally don't exist. Play the mode, get better, be useful to your squad and you'll have a load of fun. I got into wvw because pvp was less rewarding to new players and wvw is free form so you get as much out as you put in.

  • kamikharzeeh.8016kamikharzeeh.8016 Member ✭✭✭✭

    the real difference is just in knowing mechanics, movement and pressing skills fast. a strong fighting guild would probs wipe any average one even in full yellow gear.

    @Mixes.7164 ur wrong there, shredder gyro is the meta on dps scrapper. https://gw2mists.com/builds/engineer/power-scrapper

    the difference of that one trait is ... marginal. ur anyways not the prime dps. u trade damage there for stab+more superspeed. surely, whynot, but the biggest dps are weaver and herald (unless they slacked).

  • Cuks.8241Cuks.8241 Member ✭✭✭

    I like that there is a pvp mode - WvW where you use gear that you obtain in other game modes. For me, this is the end game and what a RPG game is all about. Gearing a character through all means available and then using it against other players.
    SPVP is all about balance and level playing field, which is good. It was meant as a competitive mode. WvW is inherently unbalanced on the small scale. It's war. You're not supposed to be able to have balanced fights all the time. Server wide coordination and exploitation of these unbalances is the name of the game. Harassing the supply line, avoiding the fights you can't take and attacking objectives where the enemy is weak is the point of the game.
    Besides the difference between exotic and ascended is so small that only the most skilled players will notice it. A new player will not notice it.

  • lare.5129lare.5129 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 18, 2021

    @JorneMormel.9850 said:
    With ranks, builds and equipment maxed on veteran players, there's actually a big gap between their performance and that of new players.

    so if we already have "big gap" what the point make it bigger?

    Now with ArenaNet pushing build templates and all, wouldn't it be about the right time to allow players to experiment with this on an even playing field?

    this is no any experiment for most players. meta is meta

    To eliminate the raw stat difference

    there is no any "stat difference "

    I would suggest WvW-only equipment with legendary stats, earned through WvW currency and only usable in WvW

    make wvw set useless? good way do decrease wvw community :+1:

    allowing everyone to enjoy a 'maxed' character in any and all PvP formats.

    ? we not have "all PvP formats" only wvw. on spvp we use default amulets.

    So long as it's easily accessible, you could even consider disallowing transmutations.

    what we point "disallowing" ?true wvw will say 3 letters and continue play, new player anyway get that.

    So what are your thoughts about this?

    I am sure it bad idea

    Has the introduction of WvW ranks, or even ascended equipment before that already eliminated the game's original mentality of rewarding skillful play?

    no it is. It is only say that you play it.

    Would it further emphatize and solidify the 'meta' and in doing so, further lead to a dissatified consensus on the game's balance issues?

    meta already solid

    Or would the renewed interest be more of a hook to include newer players?

    "hook" whit set that valid only on wvw? lol

    want solid balance ? - play chess.

  • XenesisII.1540XenesisII.1540 Member ✭✭✭✭

    The stats between exotic and ascended are not that big, better positioning, reading fights, playing your class and it's spec properly will carry you through fights more often than just stats.

    Having said that, I do think wvw needs better cost for their gear. I recently started a new character, and decided to try a couple gear sets for a couple different builds, well guess what, didn't have enough memories of battle to buy one set of actual wvw gear, and the rate you seem to get them is absolutely re.. well let's just say it's bad, and 30g for a stack of memories lmao pass. Decided I was just better off crafting or buying exotic gear off the tp instead to save me the hassle, 1-4g or 30g each oh boy hard choice. I also ran out of crystal desert armor boxes, but still that requires 30+ hours to even get six for a set.

    Why does the wvw gear even have to have 2 time gated currencies for both exotic and ascended gear? skirmish tickets should be enough of a gate. It's mind boggling the time cost they make up for wvw, even the original wvw achievements had ridiculous time cost.

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  • This thread exemplifies why WvW is fading out, mass resistance to change.

    We have 'there is really no stat difference, just run Exotics'--if that is the case, then why use PvE gear in WvW at all? If WvW is about skill, then no one should be resisting having a single set of earnable armor that's only usable in the mode.

    Then we get the defense of 'you can already get WvW legendary armor!' when that doesn't help matter in the least, as legendary armor is quite expensive, especially for accomplishing the same purpose having permanent stat-selectable armor would.

    Also when we're saying that there is no difference between Exotic and Ascended, apparently we've all forgotten about the infusions that reduce guard damage making fights around anything far more in favor of those who have them, as NPC guards are literally on every structure and camp in WvW.

    But, I don't know why I'm surprised at any of this when if you go into WvW any given night you'll see new players referred to as 'bags', so it's clear the veterans don't want anything shaking their world up or they'll threaten to leave the mode. And yes, I've been around WvW long enough to remember orbs.

  • Voltekka.2375Voltekka.2375 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Gotejjeken.1267 said:
    This thread exemplifies why WvW is fading out, mass resistance to change.

    We have 'there is really no stat difference, just run Exotics'--if that is the case, then why use PvE gear in WvW at all? If WvW is about skill, then no one should be resisting having a single set of earnable armor that's only usable in the mode.

    Cause thats how wvw was implemented. Pve as far as gear is concerned. Devs said so themselves.

    Then we get the defense of 'you can already get WvW legendary armor!' when that doesn't help matter in the least, as legendary armor is quite expensive, especially for accomplishing the same purpose having permanent stat-selectable armor would.

    Its expensive? Don't make it. You need it? Dedicate yourself to it. Free stuff make any mode die faster.

    Also when we're saying that there is no difference between Exotic and Ascended, apparently we've all forgotten about the infusions that reduce guard damage making fights around anything far more in favor of those who have them, as NPC guards are literally on every structure and camp in WvW.

    Everyone can get infusions. Laurels are obtainable at the same pace for every player, and the cost in wvw badges is minimal. Unless we talk about... Free stuff. Again.

    But, I don't know why I'm surprised at any of this when if you go into WvW any given night you'll see new players referred to as 'bags', so it's clear the veterans don't want anything shaking their world up or they'll threaten to leave the mode. And yes, I've been around WvW long enough to remember orbs.

    Ah, yes. Veterans. How many veterans still play? Most who remain look for fights by bandwagoning every 2 months, while many guilds have disbanded. "veterans". If by shaking up you mean -again- free stuff, then no. It us up to you to convince anet and your fellow wvw players as to WHY a change to the whole system will be beneficial, besides selfish reasons.
    One more thing: toxic elitists are a thing, but so are toxic casuals. And the latter are way more vocal.

  • Sylvyn.4750Sylvyn.4750 Member ✭✭✭

    @XenesisII.1540 said:
    The stats between exotic and ascended are not that big, better positioning, reading fights, playing your class and it's spec properly will carry you through fights more often than just stats.

    Having said that, I do think wvw needs better cost for their gear. I recently started a new character, and decided to try a couple gear sets for a couple different builds, well guess what, didn't have enough memories of battle to buy one set of actual wvw gear, and the rate you seem to get them is absolutely re.. well let's just say it's bad, and 30g for a stack of memories lmao pass. Decided I was just better off crafting or buying exotic gear off the tp instead to save me the hassle, 1-4g or 30g each oh boy hard choice. I also ran out of crystal desert armor boxes, but still that requires 30+ hours to even get six for a set.

    Why does the wvw gear even have to have 2 time gated currencies for both exotic and ascended gear? skirmish tickets should be enough of a gate. It's mind boggling the time cost they make up for wvw, even the original wvw achievements had ridiculous time cost.

    Same here...and reducing the ways we get Memories of Battle really hurt, plus having them tradeable and therefore subject to supply and demand on the market...they now cost twice as much as they did a year ago!

  • @Voltekka.2375 said:

    @Gotejjeken.1267 said:
    This thread exemplifies why WvW is fading out, mass resistance to change.

    We have 'there is really no stat difference, just run Exotics'--if that is the case, then why use PvE gear in WvW at all? If WvW is about skill, then no one should be resisting having a single set of earnable armor that's only usable in the mode.

    Cause thats how wvw was implemented. Pve as far as gear is concerned. Devs said so themselves.

    Then we get the defense of 'you can already get WvW legendary armor!' when that doesn't help matter in the least, as legendary armor is quite expensive, especially for accomplishing the same purpose having permanent stat-selectable armor would.

    Its expensive? Don't make it. You need it? Dedicate yourself to it. Free stuff make any mode die faster.

    Also when we're saying that there is no difference between Exotic and Ascended, apparently we've all forgotten about the infusions that reduce guard damage making fights around anything far more in favor of those who have them, as NPC guards are literally on every structure and camp in WvW.

    Everyone can get infusions. Laurels are obtainable at the same pace for every player, and the cost in wvw badges is minimal. Unless we talk about... Free stuff. Again.

    But, I don't know why I'm surprised at any of this when if you go into WvW any given night you'll see new players referred to as 'bags', so it's clear the veterans don't want anything shaking their world up or they'll threaten to leave the mode. And yes, I've been around WvW long enough to remember orbs.

    Ah, yes. Veterans. How many veterans still play? Most who remain look for fights by bandwagoning every 2 months, while many guilds have disbanded. "veterans". If by shaking up you mean -again- free stuff, then no. It us up to you to convince anet and your fellow wvw players as to WHY a change to the whole system will be beneficial, besides selfish reasons.
    One more thing: toxic elitists are a thing, but so are toxic casuals. And the latter are way more vocal.

    You...need reading comprehension.

    Ex:

    Also when we're saying that there is no difference between Exotic and Ascended, apparently we've all forgotten about the infusions that reduce guard damage making fights around anything far more in favor of those who have them, as NPC guards are literally on every structure and camp in WvW.

    Everyone can get infusions. Laurels are obtainable at the same pace for every player, and the cost in wvw badges is minimal. Unless we talk about... Free stuff. Again.

    Where do you even get 'free stuff' from this? The point ascended provides clear benefits over exotic, no matter how you get the infusions.

    Unless you consider playing the game 'free stuff', in which everything is literally 'free stuff' and that's just asinine.

    So yeah, resistance to change is what kills the mode; you are proving it in this very topic.

  • Hannelore.8153Hannelore.8153 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 19, 2021

    @ThaMightyBird.9712 said:
    Most of the gap in performance comes from organization, communication and skill. WvW ranks have no large impact, you kind of need the warclaw and the glider but you get that really fast. Exotic equipment is really cheap, perfectly fine in most cases and ascended is not that hard to get if you really want to have it. After a while you are flooded with ascended gear. Meta is mostly defined by how ANet balances skills/traits or lack there of. I don't think there is a need for this. People who enjoy this kind of content already play it, to hook more people you would probably need better rewards.

    I think the masteries do have a big impact in certain areas.

    For example, with full Ascended gear and the relevant masteries maxed for example, you're dealing ~40% extra damage to guards, and because damage stacks in this game exponentially, that's huge. Luring people to guards, fighting around guards, etc. is a common WvW tactic, and newbies can be absolutely destroyed by a veteran player in this manner, while it wouldn't work on another vet.

    Think about how hard it is for a newbie to take a merc-reinforced T3 camp without Defense Against Guards, Guard Killer & Mercenary's Bane. In most cases, its not even possible because those handicaps are also being stacked with a lack of skill.

    These are just a few examples, there's many more like how the stacking all siege damage and supply masteries make basic catapults usable which allows veterans to solo-siege structures for example in Desert Borderlands with just one trip to a camp.

    And just having the Permanent Portable Provisioner is a game-changer for tight inventories, which is common for players that aren't dedicated to the game mode, and don't specifically buy and organise their bags to hold siege and whatnot. Vets benefit from their alts having it, newbies don't, which means that sometimes they don't even carry siege or, more importantly, traps.

    And then what about the Warclaw abilites to Sniff out stragglers, and dismount other players?

    Sure, a new player can compete, both in gear and mastery basics, but saying they have no large impact is false.

    Hannah | Daisuki[SUKI] Founder, Ehmry Bay, NA | 24 charas, 18k hours, 29k AP | ♀♥♀
    No need to be best, only good and kind.

  • Voltekka.2375Voltekka.2375 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Gotejjeken.1267 said:

    @Voltekka.2375 said:

    @Gotejjeken.1267 said:
    This thread exemplifies why WvW is fading out, mass resistance to change.

    We have 'there is really no stat difference, just run Exotics'--if that is the case, then why use PvE gear in WvW at all? If WvW is about skill, then no one should be resisting having a single set of earnable armor that's only usable in the mode.

    Cause thats how wvw was implemented. Pve as far as gear is concerned. Devs said so themselves.

    Then we get the defense of 'you can already get WvW legendary armor!' when that doesn't help matter in the least, as legendary armor is quite expensive, especially for accomplishing the same purpose having permanent stat-selectable armor would.

    Its expensive? Don't make it. You need it? Dedicate yourself to it. Free stuff make any mode die faster.

    Also when we're saying that there is no difference between Exotic and Ascended, apparently we've all forgotten about the infusions that reduce guard damage making fights around anything far more in favor of those who have them, as NPC guards are literally on every structure and camp in WvW.

    Everyone can get infusions. Laurels are obtainable at the same pace for every player, and the cost in wvw badges is minimal. Unless we talk about... Free stuff. Again.

    But, I don't know why I'm surprised at any of this when if you go into WvW any given night you'll see new players referred to as 'bags', so it's clear the veterans don't want anything shaking their world up or they'll threaten to leave the mode. And yes, I've been around WvW long enough to remember orbs.

    Ah, yes. Veterans. How many veterans still play? Most who remain look for fights by bandwagoning every 2 months, while many guilds have disbanded. "veterans". If by shaking up you mean -again- free stuff, then no. It us up to you to convince anet and your fellow wvw players as to WHY a change to the whole system will be beneficial, besides selfish reasons.
    One more thing: toxic elitists are a thing, but so are toxic casuals. And the latter are way more vocal.

    You...need reading comprehension.

    Ex:

    Also when we're saying that there is no difference between Exotic and Ascended, apparently we've all forgotten about the infusions that reduce guard damage making fights around anything far more in favor of those who have them, as NPC guards are literally on every structure and camp in WvW.

    Everyone can get infusions. Laurels are obtainable at the same pace for every player, and the cost in wvw badges is minimal. Unless we talk about... Free stuff. Again.

    Where do you even get 'free stuff' from this? The point ascended provides clear benefits over exotic, no matter how you get the infusions.

    Unless you consider playing the game 'free stuff', in which everything is literally 'free stuff' and that's just asinine.

    So yeah, resistance to change is what kills the mode; you are proving it in this very topic.

    Resistance to having free legendary is what kills the mode. Riiiiight. I want stuff without having to work for them too, bud. too bad it wont happen.
    The benefit is small. Ascended trinkets are much more abundant and easy to get than exotic ones. As for the armors, nope, the difference is marginal.
    Dont fight people near guards in wvw, unless your build works better around multiple targets. That infusion advantage wont save you from their immob, blind, CC. Unless that, too, is a reading comprehension matter.
    You can ask for free leggy stuff in wvw by putting it under the "resistance to change" all you want. I want raid reward track, getting LI and raid armors from wvw. If you disagree, you are resistant to change, and you kill the mode. GIMME.

  • Super Hayes.6890Super Hayes.6890 Member ✭✭✭✭

    No to this suggestion. If you want to level the field in WvW you just need to implement the PvP amulet system. This far into the life of the game I doubt that would be received well by most of the community.

    The next time you get angry at someone try walking a mile in their shoes. After that, who cares! You're a mile away and you have their shoes! -Someone with more awesome quotes than me

  • Voltekka.2375Voltekka.2375 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Hannelore.8153 said:

    @ThaMightyBird.9712 said:
    Most of the gap in performance comes from organization, communication and skill. WvW ranks have no large impact, you kind of need the warclaw and the glider but you get that really fast. Exotic equipment is really cheap, perfectly fine in most cases and ascended is not that hard to get if you really want to have it. After a while you are flooded with ascended gear. Meta is mostly defined by how ANet balances skills/traits or lack there of. I don't think there is a need for this. People who enjoy this kind of content already play it, to hook more people you would probably need better rewards.

    I think the masteries do have a big impact in certain areas.

    For example, with full Ascended gear and the relevant masteries maxed for example, you're dealing ~40% extra damage to guards, and because damage stacks in this game exponentially, that's huge. Luring people to guards, fighting around guards, etc. is a common WvW tactic, and newbies can be absolutely destroyed by a veteran player in this manner, while it wouldn't work on another vet.

    Pve npcs are an issue, in wvw? An issue that has such a big impact? Ohkay...
    A newbie will die to a seasoned wvw player's burst without the need of npc guards. He will be destroyed by a veteran player long before guards will do their 653 autoattack dmg.

    Think about how hard it is for a newbie to take a merc-reinforced T3 camp without Defense Against Guards, Guard Killer & Mercenary's Bane. In most cases, its not even possible because those handicaps are also being stacked with a lack of skill.

    Same applies to pve. Jump in a mob of npc hostiles, die. Or learn to blind, cc, burst the ones near you till all of them come your way. Poor "newbie".

    These are just a few examples, there's many more like how the stacking all siege damage and supply masteries make basic catapults usable which allows veterans to solo-siege structures for example in Desert Borderlands with just one trip to a camp.

    One extra trip to the camp, hmmmm. Gamebreaking.

    And just having the Permanent Portable Provisioner is a game-changer for tight inventories, which is common for players that aren't dedicated to the game mode, and don't specifically buy and organise their bags to hold siege and whatnot. Vets benefit from their alts having it, newbies don't, which means that sometimes they don't even carry siege or, more importantly, traps.

    Or port to spawn, buy what you need, repeat.

    And then what about the Warclaw abilites to Sniff out stragglers, and dismount other players?

    Warclaw is easy to get. Rentals could help. Anet introduced a warclaw blessing.

    Sure, a new player can compete, both in gear and mastery basics, but saying they have no large impact is false.

    Large impact? As far from the truth as can be.

  • @Voltekka.2375 said:

    @Gotejjeken.1267 said:

    @Voltekka.2375 said:

    @Gotejjeken.1267 said:
    This thread exemplifies why WvW is fading out, mass resistance to change.

    We have 'there is really no stat difference, just run Exotics'--if that is the case, then why use PvE gear in WvW at all? If WvW is about skill, then no one should be resisting having a single set of earnable armor that's only usable in the mode.

    Cause thats how wvw was implemented. Pve as far as gear is concerned. Devs said so themselves.

    Then we get the defense of 'you can already get WvW legendary armor!' when that doesn't help matter in the least, as legendary armor is quite expensive, especially for accomplishing the same purpose having permanent stat-selectable armor would.

    Its expensive? Don't make it. You need it? Dedicate yourself to it. Free stuff make any mode die faster.

    Also when we're saying that there is no difference between Exotic and Ascended, apparently we've all forgotten about the infusions that reduce guard damage making fights around anything far more in favor of those who have them, as NPC guards are literally on every structure and camp in WvW.

    Everyone can get infusions. Laurels are obtainable at the same pace for every player, and the cost in wvw badges is minimal. Unless we talk about... Free stuff. Again.

    But, I don't know why I'm surprised at any of this when if you go into WvW any given night you'll see new players referred to as 'bags', so it's clear the veterans don't want anything shaking their world up or they'll threaten to leave the mode. And yes, I've been around WvW long enough to remember orbs.

    Ah, yes. Veterans. How many veterans still play? Most who remain look for fights by bandwagoning every 2 months, while many guilds have disbanded. "veterans". If by shaking up you mean -again- free stuff, then no. It us up to you to convince anet and your fellow wvw players as to WHY a change to the whole system will be beneficial, besides selfish reasons.
    One more thing: toxic elitists are a thing, but so are toxic casuals. And the latter are way more vocal.

    You...need reading comprehension.

    Ex:

    Also when we're saying that there is no difference between Exotic and Ascended, apparently we've all forgotten about the infusions that reduce guard damage making fights around anything far more in favor of those who have them, as NPC guards are literally on every structure and camp in WvW.

    Everyone can get infusions. Laurels are obtainable at the same pace for every player, and the cost in wvw badges is minimal. Unless we talk about... Free stuff. Again.

    Where do you even get 'free stuff' from this? The point ascended provides clear benefits over exotic, no matter how you get the infusions.

    Unless you consider playing the game 'free stuff', in which everything is literally 'free stuff' and that's just asinine.

    So yeah, resistance to change is what kills the mode; you are proving it in this very topic.

    Resistance to having free legendary is what kills the mode. Riiiiight. I want stuff without having to work for them too, bud. too bad it wont happen.
    The benefit is small. Ascended trinkets are much more abundant and easy to get than exotic ones. As for the armors, nope, the difference is marginal.
    Dont fight people near guards in wvw, unless your build works better around multiple targets. That infusion advantage wont save you from their immob, blind, CC. Unless that, too, is a reading comprehension matter.
    You can ask for free leggy stuff in wvw by putting it under the "resistance to change" all you want. I want raid reward track, getting LI and raid armors from wvw. If you disagree, you are resistant to change, and you kill the mode. GIMME.

    No really, the rage is becoming kind of comical.

    First, who mentioned anything about reward track? The OP clearly states: "To eliminate the raw stat difference I would suggest WvW-only equipment with legendary stats, earned through WvW currency and only usable in WvW", nothing about a reward track.

    But, following your path, do you consider the Warclaw you get through the track 'free'? So literally one of the biggest impacts of the mode (because GL getting around without a Warclaw) is, shocker, 'free'. Why are you not raging that you should need 100g and10k skirmish tickets to get one?

    Continuing down the path, the gift of battle is now also 'free', and is something that is required in legendary armor. You used to have to work WAY harder to get even a single one--were you protesting that change too?

    Finally, if the difference is marginal, and ascended is so easy to get in the first place--why are you resisting so hard to an earnable set that would by your logic, not really do anything to the mode anyway?

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 20, 2021

    @Gotejjeken.1267 said:

    @Voltekka.2375 said:

    @Gotejjeken.1267 said:

    @Voltekka.2375 said:

    @Gotejjeken.1267 said:
    This thread exemplifies why WvW is fading out, mass resistance to change.

    We have 'there is really no stat difference, just run Exotics'--if that is the case, then why use PvE gear in WvW at all? If WvW is about skill, then no one should be resisting having a single set of earnable armor that's only usable in the mode.

    Cause thats how wvw was implemented. Pve as far as gear is concerned. Devs said so themselves.

    Then we get the defense of 'you can already get WvW legendary armor!' when that doesn't help matter in the least, as legendary armor is quite expensive, especially for accomplishing the same purpose having permanent stat-selectable armor would.

    Its expensive? Don't make it. You need it? Dedicate yourself to it. Free stuff make any mode die faster.

    Also when we're saying that there is no difference between Exotic and Ascended, apparently we've all forgotten about the infusions that reduce guard damage making fights around anything far more in favor of those who have them, as NPC guards are literally on every structure and camp in WvW.

    Everyone can get infusions. Laurels are obtainable at the same pace for every player, and the cost in wvw badges is minimal. Unless we talk about... Free stuff. Again.

    But, I don't know why I'm surprised at any of this when if you go into WvW any given night you'll see new players referred to as 'bags', so it's clear the veterans don't want anything shaking their world up or they'll threaten to leave the mode. And yes, I've been around WvW long enough to remember orbs.

    Ah, yes. Veterans. How many veterans still play? Most who remain look for fights by bandwagoning every 2 months, while many guilds have disbanded. "veterans". If by shaking up you mean -again- free stuff, then no. It us up to you to convince anet and your fellow wvw players as to WHY a change to the whole system will be beneficial, besides selfish reasons.
    One more thing: toxic elitists are a thing, but so are toxic casuals. And the latter are way more vocal.

    You...need reading comprehension.

    Ex:

    Also when we're saying that there is no difference between Exotic and Ascended, apparently we've all forgotten about the infusions that reduce guard damage making fights around anything far more in favor of those who have them, as NPC guards are literally on every structure and camp in WvW.

    Everyone can get infusions. Laurels are obtainable at the same pace for every player, and the cost in wvw badges is minimal. Unless we talk about... Free stuff. Again.

    Where do you even get 'free stuff' from this? The point ascended provides clear benefits over exotic, no matter how you get the infusions.

    Unless you consider playing the game 'free stuff', in which everything is literally 'free stuff' and that's just asinine.

    So yeah, resistance to change is what kills the mode; you are proving it in this very topic.

    Resistance to having free legendary is what kills the mode. Riiiiight. I want stuff without having to work for them too, bud. too bad it wont happen.
    The benefit is small. Ascended trinkets are much more abundant and easy to get than exotic ones. As for the armors, nope, the difference is marginal.
    Dont fight people near guards in wvw, unless your build works better around multiple targets. That infusion advantage wont save you from their immob, blind, CC. Unless that, too, is a reading comprehension matter.
    You can ask for free leggy stuff in wvw by putting it under the "resistance to change" all you want. I want raid reward track, getting LI and raid armors from wvw. If you disagree, you are resistant to change, and you kill the mode. GIMME.

    No really, the rage is becoming kind of comical.

    First, who mentioned anything about reward track? The OP clearly states: "To eliminate the raw stat difference I would suggest WvW-only equipment with legendary stats, earned through WvW currency and only usable in WvW", nothing about a reward track.

    But, following your path, do you consider the Warclaw you get through the track 'free'? So literally one of the biggest impacts of the mode (because GL getting around without a Warclaw) is, shocker, 'free'. Why are you not raging that you should need 100g and10k skirmish tickets to get one?

    Continuing down the path, the gift of battle is now also 'free', and is something that is required in legendary armor. You used to have to work WAY harder to get even a single one--were you protesting that change too?

    Some of the things you mention are way way way up at the top of the complaint list as is, so I fail to see how you are making an argument using those examples. Yes, the Warclaw has a huge impact on the mode, and quite a few seasoned WvW players dislike it.

    The Gift of Battle change is mostly PvE player related. Not a single WvW player ever has had an issue acquiring one. Most WvW players keep around 10 - 20 in their bank at all times.

    The difference IS marginal from exotic to ascended on the most difficult gear pieces to get: armor. Ascended trinkets are far easier to come by than exotic, even if using only WvW reward track means to acquire the resources. Ascended weapons are likely the most difficult/expensive "should get" slot. Armor is by far the most expensive while least useful upgrade slot on top of which each WvW player gets 1 exotic stat select-able piece per week. The stat difference on armor is around 2.5% and absolutely negligible.

    @Gotejjeken.1267 said:
    Finally, if the difference is marginal, and ascended is so easy to get in the first place--why are you resisting so hard to an earnable set that would by your logic, not really do anything to the mode anyway?

    Why resist a change? If it's not broken, don't fix it. The last thing we need now is even more messing with the game mode until the developers have shown they actually understand WvW. The recent changes to long-term prestige rewards in WvW have not inspired confidence that the developers even understand their current gearing progression in place.

    Also something being marginal does not mean it has no effect on a mode outside of character power. Even marginal increases which have no huge impact can feel rewarding. Best example is in fact ascended armor in either PvE or WvW. I still recall my very first set and how I acquired it and how long it took me, fully well knowing the minimal impact it actually had on my characters performance (and the hundreds of exotic sets which I still used after on all other characters). Depriving the game of mid- to long-term goals only to please players with attention spans of a Mayfly is not in the interest of this modes long-term survival.

  • LetoII.3782LetoII.3782 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Can't blame it on gear until you're losing fights over 10%

    [HUNT] the predatory instinct

  • @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Gotejjeken.1267 said:

    @Voltekka.2375 said:

    @Gotejjeken.1267 said:

    @Voltekka.2375 said:

    @Gotejjeken.1267 said:
    This thread exemplifies why WvW is fading out, mass resistance to change.

    We have 'there is really no stat difference, just run Exotics'--if that is the case, then why use PvE gear in WvW at all? If WvW is about skill, then no one should be resisting having a single set of earnable armor that's only usable in the mode.

    Cause thats how wvw was implemented. Pve as far as gear is concerned. Devs said so themselves.

    Then we get the defense of 'you can already get WvW legendary armor!' when that doesn't help matter in the least, as legendary armor is quite expensive, especially for accomplishing the same purpose having permanent stat-selectable armor would.

    Its expensive? Don't make it. You need it? Dedicate yourself to it. Free stuff make any mode die faster.

    Also when we're saying that there is no difference between Exotic and Ascended, apparently we've all forgotten about the infusions that reduce guard damage making fights around anything far more in favor of those who have them, as NPC guards are literally on every structure and camp in WvW.

    Everyone can get infusions. Laurels are obtainable at the same pace for every player, and the cost in wvw badges is minimal. Unless we talk about... Free stuff. Again.

    But, I don't know why I'm surprised at any of this when if you go into WvW any given night you'll see new players referred to as 'bags', so it's clear the veterans don't want anything shaking their world up or they'll threaten to leave the mode. And yes, I've been around WvW long enough to remember orbs.

    Ah, yes. Veterans. How many veterans still play? Most who remain look for fights by bandwagoning every 2 months, while many guilds have disbanded. "veterans". If by shaking up you mean -again- free stuff, then no. It us up to you to convince anet and your fellow wvw players as to WHY a change to the whole system will be beneficial, besides selfish reasons.
    One more thing: toxic elitists are a thing, but so are toxic casuals. And the latter are way more vocal.

    You...need reading comprehension.

    Ex:

    Also when we're saying that there is no difference between Exotic and Ascended, apparently we've all forgotten about the infusions that reduce guard damage making fights around anything far more in favor of those who have them, as NPC guards are literally on every structure and camp in WvW.

    Everyone can get infusions. Laurels are obtainable at the same pace for every player, and the cost in wvw badges is minimal. Unless we talk about... Free stuff. Again.

    Where do you even get 'free stuff' from this? The point ascended provides clear benefits over exotic, no matter how you get the infusions.

    Unless you consider playing the game 'free stuff', in which everything is literally 'free stuff' and that's just asinine.

    So yeah, resistance to change is what kills the mode; you are proving it in this very topic.

    Resistance to having free legendary is what kills the mode. Riiiiight. I want stuff without having to work for them too, bud. too bad it wont happen.
    The benefit is small. Ascended trinkets are much more abundant and easy to get than exotic ones. As for the armors, nope, the difference is marginal.
    Dont fight people near guards in wvw, unless your build works better around multiple targets. That infusion advantage wont save you from their immob, blind, CC. Unless that, too, is a reading comprehension matter.
    You can ask for free leggy stuff in wvw by putting it under the "resistance to change" all you want. I want raid reward track, getting LI and raid armors from wvw. If you disagree, you are resistant to change, and you kill the mode. GIMME.

    No really, the rage is becoming kind of comical.

    First, who mentioned anything about reward track? The OP clearly states: "To eliminate the raw stat difference I would suggest WvW-only equipment with legendary stats, earned through WvW currency and only usable in WvW", nothing about a reward track.

    But, following your path, do you consider the Warclaw you get through the track 'free'? So literally one of the biggest impacts of the mode (because GL getting around without a Warclaw) is, shocker, 'free'. Why are you not raging that you should need 100g and10k skirmish tickets to get one?

    Continuing down the path, the gift of battle is now also 'free', and is something that is required in legendary armor. You used to have to work WAY harder to get even a single one--were you protesting that change too?

    Some of the things you mention are way way way up at the top of the complaint list as is, so I fail to see how you are making an argument using those examples. Yes, the Warclaw has a huge impact on the mode, and quite a few seasoned WvW players dislike it.

    The Gift of Battle change is mostly PvE player related. Not a single WvW player ever has had an issue acquiring one. Most WvW players keep around 10 - 20 in their bank at all times.

    The difference IS marginal from exotic to ascended on the most difficult gear pieces to get: armor. Ascended trinkets are far easier to come by than exotic, even if using only WvW reward track means to acquire the resources. Ascended weapons are likely the most difficult/expensive "should get" slot. Armor is by far the most expensive while least useful upgrade slot on top of which each WvW player gets 1 exotic stat select-able piece per week. The stat difference on armor is around 2.5% and absolutely negligible.

    @Gotejjeken.1267 said:
    Finally, if the difference is marginal, and ascended is so easy to get in the first place--why are you resisting so hard to an earnable set that would by your logic, not really do anything to the mode anyway?

    Why resist a change? If it's not broken, don't fix it. The last thing we need now is even more messing with the game mode until the developers have shown they actually understand WvW. The recent changes to long-term prestige rewards in WvW have not inspired confidence that the developers even understand their current gearing progression in place.

    Also something being marginal does not mean it has no effect on a mode outside of character power. Even marginal increases which have no huge impact can feel rewarding. Best example is in fact ascended armor in either PvE or WvW. I still recall my very first set and how I acquired it and how long it took me, fully well knowing the minimal impact it actually had on my characters performance (and the hundreds of exotic sets which I still used after on all other characters). Depriving the game of mid- to long-term goals only to please players with attention spans of a Mayfly is not in the interest of this modes long-term survival.

    Firstly, the reason you have 10-20 gifts of battle is because over the past 8 years they've made them go from very difficult to get to very easy. You used to have to get them through killing players only, now they drop from everything.

    Thus making it a lot easier to get the current WvW legendary set of armor in the first place--all you have to do is farm pips for tickets and convert some gems to gold, there is no real WvW specific reward to any of it, as rank means nothing.

    Anyway, the mode is broken though, you said it yourself--you don't want anymore changes because the current state of the mode is bad.

    Basically, all I take from this topic is taking the gems to gold or farming gold out of it; you'd still have to earn the WvW legendary set through playing. Make it rank dependent like Mistforged Hero's Armor used to be (and still sorta is), that way you have to essentially stick with the mode longterm to get it, as even if you zerg to get your ranks you'd get bored before you get the set if you don't like WvW in the first place.

    It's just silly how hard it is to change your build in the first place. You have to buy a bunch of exotic sets and switch to them--when GW has never been about that. Going back to even GW1 it was all about cosmetics. Gating stats was never the original intention; and with them making WvW 10x easier over the past 8 years and WvW still dying, it clearly doesn't work.

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 20, 2021

    @Gotejjeken.1267 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Gotejjeken.1267 said:

    @Voltekka.2375 said:

    @Gotejjeken.1267 said:

    @Voltekka.2375 said:

    @Gotejjeken.1267 said:
    This thread exemplifies why WvW is fading out, mass resistance to change.

    We have 'there is really no stat difference, just run Exotics'--if that is the case, then why use PvE gear in WvW at all? If WvW is about skill, then no one should be resisting having a single set of earnable armor that's only usable in the mode.

    Cause thats how wvw was implemented. Pve as far as gear is concerned. Devs said so themselves.

    Then we get the defense of 'you can already get WvW legendary armor!' when that doesn't help matter in the least, as legendary armor is quite expensive, especially for accomplishing the same purpose having permanent stat-selectable armor would.

    Its expensive? Don't make it. You need it? Dedicate yourself to it. Free stuff make any mode die faster.

    Also when we're saying that there is no difference between Exotic and Ascended, apparently we've all forgotten about the infusions that reduce guard damage making fights around anything far more in favor of those who have them, as NPC guards are literally on every structure and camp in WvW.

    Everyone can get infusions. Laurels are obtainable at the same pace for every player, and the cost in wvw badges is minimal. Unless we talk about... Free stuff. Again.

    But, I don't know why I'm surprised at any of this when if you go into WvW any given night you'll see new players referred to as 'bags', so it's clear the veterans don't want anything shaking their world up or they'll threaten to leave the mode. And yes, I've been around WvW long enough to remember orbs.

    Ah, yes. Veterans. How many veterans still play? Most who remain look for fights by bandwagoning every 2 months, while many guilds have disbanded. "veterans". If by shaking up you mean -again- free stuff, then no. It us up to you to convince anet and your fellow wvw players as to WHY a change to the whole system will be beneficial, besides selfish reasons.
    One more thing: toxic elitists are a thing, but so are toxic casuals. And the latter are way more vocal.

    You...need reading comprehension.

    Ex:

    Also when we're saying that there is no difference between Exotic and Ascended, apparently we've all forgotten about the infusions that reduce guard damage making fights around anything far more in favor of those who have them, as NPC guards are literally on every structure and camp in WvW.

    Everyone can get infusions. Laurels are obtainable at the same pace for every player, and the cost in wvw badges is minimal. Unless we talk about... Free stuff. Again.

    Where do you even get 'free stuff' from this? The point ascended provides clear benefits over exotic, no matter how you get the infusions.

    Unless you consider playing the game 'free stuff', in which everything is literally 'free stuff' and that's just asinine.

    So yeah, resistance to change is what kills the mode; you are proving it in this very topic.

    Resistance to having free legendary is what kills the mode. Riiiiight. I want stuff without having to work for them too, bud. too bad it wont happen.
    The benefit is small. Ascended trinkets are much more abundant and easy to get than exotic ones. As for the armors, nope, the difference is marginal.
    Dont fight people near guards in wvw, unless your build works better around multiple targets. That infusion advantage wont save you from their immob, blind, CC. Unless that, too, is a reading comprehension matter.
    You can ask for free leggy stuff in wvw by putting it under the "resistance to change" all you want. I want raid reward track, getting LI and raid armors from wvw. If you disagree, you are resistant to change, and you kill the mode. GIMME.

    No really, the rage is becoming kind of comical.

    First, who mentioned anything about reward track? The OP clearly states: "To eliminate the raw stat difference I would suggest WvW-only equipment with legendary stats, earned through WvW currency and only usable in WvW", nothing about a reward track.

    But, following your path, do you consider the Warclaw you get through the track 'free'? So literally one of the biggest impacts of the mode (because GL getting around without a Warclaw) is, shocker, 'free'. Why are you not raging that you should need 100g and10k skirmish tickets to get one?

    Continuing down the path, the gift of battle is now also 'free', and is something that is required in legendary armor. You used to have to work WAY harder to get even a single one--were you protesting that change too?

    Some of the things you mention are way way way up at the top of the complaint list as is, so I fail to see how you are making an argument using those examples. Yes, the Warclaw has a huge impact on the mode, and quite a few seasoned WvW players dislike it.

    The Gift of Battle change is mostly PvE player related. Not a single WvW player ever has had an issue acquiring one. Most WvW players keep around 10 - 20 in their bank at all times.

    The difference IS marginal from exotic to ascended on the most difficult gear pieces to get: armor. Ascended trinkets are far easier to come by than exotic, even if using only WvW reward track means to acquire the resources. Ascended weapons are likely the most difficult/expensive "should get" slot. Armor is by far the most expensive while least useful upgrade slot on top of which each WvW player gets 1 exotic stat select-able piece per week. The stat difference on armor is around 2.5% and absolutely negligible.

    @Gotejjeken.1267 said:
    Finally, if the difference is marginal, and ascended is so easy to get in the first place--why are you resisting so hard to an earnable set that would by your logic, not really do anything to the mode anyway?

    Why resist a change? If it's not broken, don't fix it. The last thing we need now is even more messing with the game mode until the developers have shown they actually understand WvW. The recent changes to long-term prestige rewards in WvW have not inspired confidence that the developers even understand their current gearing progression in place.

    Also something being marginal does not mean it has no effect on a mode outside of character power. Even marginal increases which have no huge impact can feel rewarding. Best example is in fact ascended armor in either PvE or WvW. I still recall my very first set and how I acquired it and how long it took me, fully well knowing the minimal impact it actually had on my characters performance (and the hundreds of exotic sets which I still used after on all other characters). Depriving the game of mid- to long-term goals only to please players with attention spans of a Mayfly is not in the interest of this modes long-term survival.

    Firstly, the reason you have 10-20 gifts of battle is because over the past 8 years they've made them go from very difficult to get to very easy. You used to have to get them through killing players only, now they drop from everything.

    No, you used to BUY them with Badges of Honor, of which players always had tons (changed in Spring 2016). Even when I was NOT actively playing WvW I had enough BoH to buy multiple GoB and even regretted not buying more back then. This was even easier when AP where added and the subsequent BoH rewards there too, effectively removing the necessity to WvW at all for GoB.

    @Gotejjeken.1267 said:
    Thus making it a lot easier to get the current WvW legendary set of armor in the first place--all you have to do is farm pips for tickets and convert some gems to gold, there is no real WvW specific reward to any of it, as rank means nothing.

    The WvW legi armor was added far later than the GoB change (WvW legi armor was added in May 2017).

    Please do some basic wiki searches if you are unclear on the acutal changes made to this mode.

    @Gotejjeken.1267 said:
    Anyway, the mode is broken though, you said it yourself--you don't want anymore changes because the current state of the mode is bad.

    I said I don't want changes UNTIL the developers have shown that they understand the mode. That is not the same as not wanting change.

    @Gotejjeken.1267 said:
    Basically, all I take from this topic is taking the gems to gold or farming gold out of it; you'd still have to earn the WvW legendary set through playing. Make it rank dependent like Mistforged Hero's Armor used to be (and still sorta is), that way you have to essentially stick with the mode longterm to get it, as even if you zerg to get your ranks you'd get bored before you get the set if you don't like WvW in the first place.

    It's just silly how hard it is to change your build in the first place. You have to buy a bunch of exotic sets and switch to them--when GW has never been about that. Going back to even GW1 it was all about cosmetics. Gating stats was never the original intention; and with them making WvW 10x easier over the past 8 years and WvW still dying, it clearly doesn't work.

    Yes, and the changes to having all stats select-able recently has made exotic gear and gearing even easier. If you want no gear, or nearly no gear dependence in WvW, make a strong argument for that instead of back dooring. I doubt you will find a great amount of acceptance in the current player base though, given the current players are attracted to the mode as is.

    As far as gating stats: WvW has had PvE stats from day one. I would love to have you explain how this was not intended. I don't care about your GW1 analogies. There was no WvW in GW1, and the Spvp mode here does not have gear, so for all intents and purposes, that's the mode you can play if you want a GW1 similar pvp experience.

  • Gotejjeken.1267Gotejjeken.1267 Member ✭✭✭
    edited February 20, 2021

    @Gotejjeken.1267 said:
    Firstly, the reason you have 10-20 gifts of battle is because over the past 8 years they've made them go from very difficult to get to very easy. You used to have to get them through killing players only, now they drop from everything.

    No, you used to BUY them with Badges of Honor, of which players always had tons (changed in Spring 2016). Even when I was NOT actively playing WvW I had enough BoH to buy multiple GoB and even regretted not buying more back then. This was even easier when AP where added and the subsequent BoH rewards there too, effectively removing the necessity to WvW at all for GoB.

    @Gotejjeken.1267 said:
    Thus making it a lot easier to get the current WvW legendary set of armor in the first place--all you have to do is farm pips for tickets and convert some gems to gold, there is no real WvW specific reward to any of it, as rank means nothing.

    The WvW legi armor was added far later than the GoB change (WvW legi armor was added in May 2017).

    Please do some basic wiki searches if you are unclear on the acutal changes made to this mode.

    @Gotejjeken.1267 said:
    Anyway, the mode is broken though, you said it yourself--you don't want anymore changes because the current state of the mode is bad.

    I said I don't want changes UNTIL the developers have shown that they understand the mode. That is not the same as not wanting change.

    @Gotejjeken.1267 said:
    Basically, all I take from this topic is taking the gems to gold or farming gold out of it; you'd still have to earn the WvW legendary set through playing. Make it rank dependent like Mistforged Hero's Armor used to be (and still sorta is), that way you have to essentially stick with the mode longterm to get it, as even if you zerg to get your ranks you'd get bored before you get the set if you don't like WvW in the first place.

    It's just silly how hard it is to change your build in the first place. You have to buy a bunch of exotic sets and switch to them--when GW has never been about that. Going back to even GW1 it was all about cosmetics. Gating stats was never the original intention; and with them making WvW 10x easier over the past 8 years and WvW still dying, it clearly doesn't work.

    Yes, and the changes to having all stats select-able recently has made exotic gear and gearing even easier. If you want no gear, or nearly no gear dependence in WvW, make a strong argument for that instead of back dooring. I doubt you will find a great amount of acceptance in the current player base though, given the current players are attracted to the mode as is.

    As far as gating stats: WvW has had PvE stats from day one. I would love to have you explain how this was not intended. I don't care about your GW1 analogies. There was no WvW in GW1, and the Spvp mode here does not have gear, so for all intents and purposes, that's the mode you can play if you want a GW1 similar pvp experience.

    For the first point I meant badges of honor used to only come from killing players ( https://wiki.guildwars2.com/index.php?title=Badge_of_Honor&oldid=327793 ), and yes you had to buy gift of battle with that. Now badges of honor drop from literally everything and you can get gifts of battle through a reward track, thus 'easy mode'. Not really concerned with how many badges you had or how you got them, for all I know you zerged around in EB and were flooded with them with little effort.

    Second point, don't care when legendary armor was added--it isn't relevant to what I wrote. My point is legendary armor has no specific WvW attachment to it other than either buying gems => gold if you have money, or farming PvE until you get the gold and then running around with zergs and afk'ing for pips to get skirmish tickets.

    Third point, you're going to be waiting a long time as the mode has gotten worse every passing year since 2012; not sure if you were around back then, but if you weren't might want to wiki it =).

    Fourth point, players are attached to the mode now through Stockholm Syndrome, so not really concerned with how the overall community feels. Most of you weren't around to play GW1 which is why your last statement stands out. Guild Wars was always the 'anti-Wow', gear creep was never a thing, and still isn't.

    They put PvE gear into WvW to make it a more casual experience (which is why someone can gank people 3 on 1 with a stupid stat set and still feel like they're good), not because gear was intended to make or break the mode. People still hold on to the PvE gear in the mode because they want to feel like PvE is somehow hard and their gear matters, and also want to get kills without being good at the game or their profession.

    It's fine though, all you get get here on the forums is the usual hostility from 'WvW veterans' who probably weren't even around pre-HoT wanting to hold on to current systems that are very bad at bringing new people into the mode.

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 21, 2021

    @Gotejjeken.1267 said:

    @Gotejjeken.1267 said:
    Firstly, the reason you have 10-20 gifts of battle is because over the past 8 years they've made them go from very difficult to get to very easy. You used to have to get them through killing players only, now they drop from everything.

    No, you used to BUY them with Badges of Honor, of which players always had tons (changed in Spring 2016). Even when I was NOT actively playing WvW I had enough BoH to buy multiple GoB and even regretted not buying more back then. This was even easier when AP where added and the subsequent BoH rewards there too, effectively removing the necessity to WvW at all for GoB.

    @Gotejjeken.1267 said:
    Thus making it a lot easier to get the current WvW legendary set of armor in the first place--all you have to do is farm pips for tickets and convert some gems to gold, there is no real WvW specific reward to any of it, as rank means nothing.

    The WvW legi armor was added far later than the GoB change (WvW legi armor was added in May 2017).

    Please do some basic wiki searches if you are unclear on the acutal changes made to this mode.

    @Gotejjeken.1267 said:
    Anyway, the mode is broken though, you said it yourself--you don't want anymore changes because the current state of the mode is bad.

    I said I don't want changes UNTIL the developers have shown that they understand the mode. That is not the same as not wanting change.

    @Gotejjeken.1267 said:
    Basically, all I take from this topic is taking the gems to gold or farming gold out of it; you'd still have to earn the WvW legendary set through playing. Make it rank dependent like Mistforged Hero's Armor used to be (and still sorta is), that way you have to essentially stick with the mode longterm to get it, as even if you zerg to get your ranks you'd get bored before you get the set if you don't like WvW in the first place.

    It's just silly how hard it is to change your build in the first place. You have to buy a bunch of exotic sets and switch to them--when GW has never been about that. Going back to even GW1 it was all about cosmetics. Gating stats was never the original intention; and with them making WvW 10x easier over the past 8 years and WvW still dying, it clearly doesn't work.

    Yes, and the changes to having all stats select-able recently has made exotic gear and gearing even easier. If you want no gear, or nearly no gear dependence in WvW, make a strong argument for that instead of back dooring. I doubt you will find a great amount of acceptance in the current player base though, given the current players are attracted to the mode as is.

    As far as gating stats: WvW has had PvE stats from day one. I would love to have you explain how this was not intended. I don't care about your GW1 analogies. There was no WvW in GW1, and the Spvp mode here does not have gear, so for all intents and purposes, that's the mode you can play if you want a GW1 similar pvp experience.

    For the first point I meant badges of honor used to only come from killing players ( https://wiki.guildwars2.com/index.php?title=Badge_of_Honor&oldid=327793 ), and yes you had to buy gift of battle with that. Now badges of honor drop from literally everything and you can get gifts of battle through a reward track, thus 'easy mode'. Not really concerned with how many badges you had or how you got them, for all I know you zerged around in EB and were flooded with them with little effort.

    Yes, and BoH were plenty. Again, I had no issue buying multiple gifts back then and I was not even active in WvW. Sub WvW rank 300 for the first 2 years of the game. The biggest loss was mostly due to no auto loot.

    That is without even mentioning the achievement point reward implementation after the first 6 months, and with them thousands of BoH for every player.

    I fail to see your point. Unless the point was to hand pick short moments in time of this game which had nearly no effect at all on the topic discussed. Legendary items were basically 1 in a million the first few months for players, and after that it was certainly not the BoH limiting access.

    @Gotejjeken.1267 said:
    Second point, don't care when legendary armor was added--it isn't relevant to what I wrote. My point is legendary armor has no specific WvW attachment to it other than either buying gems => gold if you have money, or farming PvE until you get the gold and then running around with zergs and afk'ing for pips to get skirmish tickets.

    My mistake. Your sentence structure made it seem as though you were continuing your point about badges of Honor. If 24 weeks of maximum skirmish tickets is not tying the armor to WvW, I don't know what is.

    You not agreeing that players who are participating as part of the zerg are playing WvW is not my problem. This mode has many different play styles shoved together. Your preferred play style is not the only one that counts or matters.

    @Gotejjeken.1267 said:
    Third point, you're going to be waiting a long time as the mode has gotten worse every passing year since 2012; not sure if you were around back then, but if you weren't might want to wiki it =).

    Sure. Doesn't change the fact you were putting words in my mouth.

    @Gotejjeken.1267 said:
    Fourth point, players are attached to the mode now through Stockholm Syndrome, so not really concerned with how the overall community feels. Most of you weren't around to play GW1 which is why your last statement stands out. Guild Wars was always the 'anti-Wow', gear creep was never a thing, and still isn't.

    Subjective interpretation of someone who maybe should move on?

    I wouldn't know. Again, in case you missed it: WvW has had PvE gear from day 1. GW1 had gearing just like GW2 in PvE and never gave out PvE gear for free. In fact getting multiple sets was likely more expensive there than it is to get exotic gear in GW2. Especially when going for meta upgrades for that gear (Superior Rune of Vigor was always expensive, as were desired Runes for specific builds easily rivaling today's Scholar Runes in GW2 and above). WvW has always had PvE elements by design.

    PvP in GW1 had mostly no gearing. Similar to Spvp in GW2. That's the mode you need to look to if you want your GW1 non gearing experience.

    @Gotejjeken.1267 said:
    They put PvE gear into WvW to make it a more casual experience (which is why someone can gank people 3 on 1 with a stupid stat set and still feel like they're good), not because gear was intended to make or break the mode. People still hold on to the PvE gear in the mode because they want to feel like PvE is somehow hard and their gear matters, and also want to get kills without being good at the game or their profession.

    It's fine though, all you get get here on the forums is the usual hostility from 'WvW veterans' who probably weren't even around pre-HoT wanting to hold on to current systems that are very bad at bringing new people into the mode.

    You reap what you sow. You come telling everyone they are wrong at how they enjoy the game. Tell everyone here that the game mode should change after 8 years in a way YOU want it to change in some cases against the very initial conception and implementation. Then expect everyone to agree? That's not how opinions work.

  • @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Gotejjeken.1267 said:

    @Gotejjeken.1267 said:
    Firstly, the reason you have 10-20 gifts of battle is because over the past 8 years they've made them go from very difficult to get to very easy. You used to have to get them through killing players only, now they drop from everything.

    No, you used to BUY them with Badges of Honor, of which players always had tons (changed in Spring 2016). Even when I was NOT actively playing WvW I had enough BoH to buy multiple GoB and even regretted not buying more back then. This was even easier when AP where added and the subsequent BoH rewards there too, effectively removing the necessity to WvW at all for GoB.

    @Gotejjeken.1267 said:
    Thus making it a lot easier to get the current WvW legendary set of armor in the first place--all you have to do is farm pips for tickets and convert some gems to gold, there is no real WvW specific reward to any of it, as rank means nothing.

    The WvW legi armor was added far later than the GoB change (WvW legi armor was added in May 2017).

    Please do some basic wiki searches if you are unclear on the acutal changes made to this mode.

    @Gotejjeken.1267 said:
    Anyway, the mode is broken though, you said it yourself--you don't want anymore changes because the current state of the mode is bad.

    I said I don't want changes UNTIL the developers have shown that they understand the mode. That is not the same as not wanting change.

    @Gotejjeken.1267 said:
    Basically, all I take from this topic is taking the gems to gold or farming gold out of it; you'd still have to earn the WvW legendary set through playing. Make it rank dependent like Mistforged Hero's Armor used to be (and still sorta is), that way you have to essentially stick with the mode longterm to get it, as even if you zerg to get your ranks you'd get bored before you get the set if you don't like WvW in the first place.

    It's just silly how hard it is to change your build in the first place. You have to buy a bunch of exotic sets and switch to them--when GW has never been about that. Going back to even GW1 it was all about cosmetics. Gating stats was never the original intention; and with them making WvW 10x easier over the past 8 years and WvW still dying, it clearly doesn't work.

    Yes, and the changes to having all stats select-able recently has made exotic gear and gearing even easier. If you want no gear, or nearly no gear dependence in WvW, make a strong argument for that instead of back dooring. I doubt you will find a great amount of acceptance in the current player base though, given the current players are attracted to the mode as is.

    As far as gating stats: WvW has had PvE stats from day one. I would love to have you explain how this was not intended. I don't care about your GW1 analogies. There was no WvW in GW1, and the Spvp mode here does not have gear, so for all intents and purposes, that's the mode you can play if you want a GW1 similar pvp experience.

    For the first point I meant badges of honor used to only come from killing players ( https://wiki.guildwars2.com/index.php?title=Badge_of_Honor&oldid=327793 ), and yes you had to buy gift of battle with that. Now badges of honor drop from literally everything and you can get gifts of battle through a reward track, thus 'easy mode'. Not really concerned with how many badges you had or how you got them, for all I know you zerged around in EB and were flooded with them with little effort.

    Yes, and BoH were plenty. Again, I had no issue buying multiple gifts back then and I was not even active in WvW. Sub WvW rank 300 for the first 2 years of the game. The biggest loss was mostly due to no auto loot.

    That is without even mentioning the achievement point reward implementation after the first 6 months, and with them thousands of BoH for every player.

    I fail to see your point. Unless the point was to hand pick short moments in time of this game which had nearly no effect at all on the topic discussed. Legendary items were basically 1 in a million the first few months for players, and after that it was certainly not the BoH limiting access.

    @Gotejjeken.1267 said:
    Second point, don't care when legendary armor was added--it isn't relevant to what I wrote. My point is legendary armor has no specific WvW attachment to it other than either buying gems => gold if you have money, or farming PvE until you get the gold and then running around with zergs and afk'ing for pips to get skirmish tickets.

    My mistake. Your sentence structure made it seem as though you were continuing your point about badges of Honor. If 24 weeks of maximum skirmish tickets is not tying the armor to WvW, I don't know what is.

    You not agreeing that players who are participating as part of the zerg are playing WvW is not my problem. This mode has many different play styles shoved together. Your preferred play style is not the only one that counts or matters.

    @Gotejjeken.1267 said:
    Third point, you're going to be waiting a long time as the mode has gotten worse every passing year since 2012; not sure if you were around back then, but if you weren't might want to wiki it =).

    Sure. Doesn't change the fact you were putting words in my mouth.

    @Gotejjeken.1267 said:
    Fourth point, players are attached to the mode now through Stockholm Syndrome, so not really concerned with how the overall community feels. Most of you weren't around to play GW1 which is why your last statement stands out. Guild Wars was always the 'anti-Wow', gear creep was never a thing, and still isn't.

    Subjective interpretation of someone who maybe should move on?

    I wouldn't know. Again, in case you missed it: WvW has had PvE gear from day 1. GW1 had gearing just like GW2 in PvE and never gave out PvE gear for free. In fact getting multiple sets was likely more expensive there than it is to get exotic gear in GW2. Especially when going for meta upgrades for that gear (Superior Rune of Vigor was always expensive, as were desired Runes for specific builds easily rivaling today's Scholar Runes in GW2 and above). WvW has always had PvE elements by design.

    PvP in GW1 had mostly no gearing. Similar to Spvp in GW2. That's the mode you need to look to if you want your GW1 non gearing experience.

    @Gotejjeken.1267 said:
    They put PvE gear into WvW to make it a more casual experience (which is why someone can gank people 3 on 1 with a stupid stat set and still feel like they're good), not because gear was intended to make or break the mode. People still hold on to the PvE gear in the mode because they want to feel like PvE is somehow hard and their gear matters, and also want to get kills without being good at the game or their profession.

    It's fine though, all you get get here on the forums is the usual hostility from 'WvW veterans' who probably weren't even around pre-HoT wanting to hold on to current systems that are very bad at bringing new people into the mode.

    You reap what you sow. You come telling everyone they are wrong at how they enjoy the game. Tell everyone here that the game mode should change after 8 years in a way YOU want it to change in some cases against the very initial conception and implementation. Then expect everyone to agree? That's not how opinions work.

    I personally don't care, I have been around long enough to know what WvW is and to get legendary armor. My point in this topic is for people like the TC that find it hard to get back into WvW (or get into it in the first place) because the systems have not been updated to welcome new / returning players.

    I mean we're arguing in a topic about helping a mode that can't be helped really due to the way server transfers and bandwagoning work. Add in gear that you grind out in a different mode (i.e. PvE), ridiculous things you have to earn through mastery (warclaw, gliding), private tags, claim buff, and you've got just about the highest bar to entry to any mode in the game. That's great for longevity.

    It's just silly not to add a set of specific WvW only stat-swappable (i.e. legendary) equipment to make builds easier to try out and use. That encourages new players, so we don't have to kill the same gold+ ranks over, and over again--as for the off chance someone new to the mode may read this, despite rank most high ranks are inversely proportional to skill level, esp. as you hit platinum, mithril, and esp. diamond.