Bountiful Theft needs to be buffed

Bountiful Theft right now only steals 1 stack at a fixed duration despite being "bountiful." Why has it always been this way? This is why thieves cant have nice things...

I bring up the age old suggestion to make bountiful theft steal full stacks AND durations to fit the trait and to buff thief.

Isn't it bountiful because you gain vigor no matter what?

The trait:

• Rip up to 3 boons (2 for sPvP/WvW) on your foe.
• Grant up to 4 boons (3 for sPvP/WvW) on 5 allies.

And you think that "thieves can't have nice things"? I mean, that's pretty darn good already.

@"Dadnir.5038" said:Isn't it bountiful because you gain vigor no matter what?

The trait:

• Rip up to 3 boons (2 for sPvP/WvW) on your foe.
• Grant up to 4 boons (3 for sPvP/WvW) on 5 allies.

And you think that "thieves can't have nice things"? I mean, that's pretty darn good already.

1 stack of any boon... 1...not the 25 stacks of might you ripped off, it turns to 1...smh, read up bro.

You remove the entire stack. Removing 25 might stacks from your target in PvP is pretty darn good.

@Geiir.7603 said:You remove the entire stack. Removing 25 might stacks from your target in PvP is pretty darn good.

but you get 1stack back. what did i do? drop the other 24 while running away ?

I'd rather it always give quickness in PvE , with a negligible duration in PVP/WVW (1/4 second?). That would make boon daredevil relevant outside of a few select raids.

I doubt it will be buffed because when used on Deadeye's final trait you're already giving out Fury, 25 Might, Swiftness, and Vigor, and stack half those boons pretty much infinitely on the party with the Cantrip reset mechanic.

With max Boon Duration you're also providing your entire party with permanent Vigor, which is very strong. Its probably the single most overpowered boon in the entire game, since this game depends on active defenses, and why sources of it are so rare.

Although it is underpowered on Daredevil in comparison.

@Lithril Ashwalker.6230 said:

@Geiir.7603 said:You

remove

the entire stack. Removing 25 might stacks from your target in PvP is pretty darn good.

While the mechanic seems weird, it is still strong. Very strong if used after a boon burst.

@Geiir.7603 said:You remove the entire stack. Removing 25 might stacks from your target in PvP is pretty darn good.

It is indeed, with a slight caveat. In the order of boons ripped, it goes Aegis, Stability, protection, regeneration, retaliation, alacrity, fury, swiftness, might...

It's 9th on the list. True, it has to be aegis first, and stability second, and removal of either is stronk - but in groups the chances of ripping might is fairly slim. Most boons these days appear to be reapplied quickly. Additionally, to remove it means you're in mele range. Nothing wrong with that, just that it's not without risk - needs to be timed, and what you steal may not be the most useful (or annoying one to steal). Likewise, in competitive (where it matters) it's only 2 boons.

The really good thing is that the stolen boons have durations applied regardless - so afaik its the longest duration of stab for a thief (3s) - as stolen plasma is only 1s (basically vanishes as soon as applied, due to anim).

My issue with bountiful theft is the logic of retaining the 3 boon rips in pve, but only allow 2 in pvp/wvw is a** backwards. In pve, almost none of the npcs generate boons while pvp/wvw, organized groups can generate and and maintain a whole array of boons.

Ah yes, buffing already strong trait in already strong spec is the way to go. Even moreso "because of the name of the trait". This forum never changes I guess :D

@"cyberzombie.7348" The "logic" behind that is the same as other skills having less charges, less dmg, lower duration, higher cost and otherwise weaker effects -because in competitive modes you play against other players and skills generally shouldn't be too powerful to make room for some counterplay. In pve you play with other players and mobs don't care, so the effects can be stronger. If you'll want consistency, then there's nothing standing in the way of them nerfing pve versions of the skills to the level of wvw/pvp, but somehow I don't think it will be welcomed by you, me or, well... anyone.

@"Sobx.1758" said:Ah yes, buffing already strong trait in already strong spec is the way to go. Even moreso "because of the name of the trait". This forum never changes I guess :D

@"cyberzombie.7348" The "logic" behind that is the same as other skills having less charges, less dmg, lower duration, higher cost and otherwise weaker effects -because in competitive modes you play against other players and skills generally shouldn't be too powerful to make room for some counterplay. In pve you play with other players and mobs don't care, so the effects can be stronger. If you'll want consistency, then there's nothing standing in the way of them nerfing pve versions of the skills to the level of wvw/pvp, but somehow I don't think it will be welcomed by you, me or, well... anyone.

His point is that ambient pve nearly nothing has boons to rip anyway, so it's amusing to "split" the skill from the boon rip perspective.

Oh, and as for counter play - there is a counter play. I hear it every time anyone complains about anything so why not add it here.

Learn to dodge >.<

@Chips.7968 said:

@"Sobx.1758" said:Ah yes, buffing already strong trait in already strong spec is the way to go. Even moreso "because of the name of the trait". This forum never changes I guess :D

@"cyberzombie.7348" The "logic" behind that is the same as other skills having less charges, less dmg, lower duration, higher cost and otherwise weaker effects -because in competitive modes you play

against

other players and skills generally shouldn't be too powerful to make room for some counterplay. In pve you play

with

other players and mobs don't care, so the effects can be stronger. If you'll want consistency, then there's nothing standing in the way of them nerfing pve versions of the skills to the level of wvw/pvp, but somehow I don't think it will be welcomed by you, me or, well... anyone.

Yeah and my point is that "nearly nothing =/= nothing", with the potential "solution" here being just nerfing the pve version for no reason other then some self made "it would be more logical to have it weaker in pve", when there's no actual reason to even care/bother.(and it's not even "more logical" for the reason I wrote in the post you've just answered to)

Oh, and as for counter play - there is a counter play. I hear it every time anyone complains about anything so why not add it here.

Learn to dodge >.<

Nice meme.Bottom line is that it really doesn't need nor deserves to be stronger in competitive mode. To put it lightly, it's already used more often than it's not (while being a part of pretty much must-have spec) and no amount of dodging that fact will change it. What might change it is an actual valid argument for having it buffed, but neither "because it's named like that!" nor "because then it would be stronger!" is a valid one.

Back in the day, like year 1 vanilla, Bountiful Theft used to rip full durations of boons, same with Larc strike. (I cant remember if it stole full stacks too, it may have.) To be fair it was a little op in some situations and abused. For example, I personally used to use it on Dredge in Eternal Battlegrounds in wvw to gain over 1 min of protection. Im sure there were even more ways to abuse it outside of my example and so they made every gained boon have a fixed duration.

You can't have 25 might because you pressed F1 on a 17-20 second cooldown while targeting someone who generated the 25 might. Stripping the might is enough. if you want that DPS you're going to need to take a glass amulet and a damage line.

@Azure The Heartless.3261 said:You can't have 25 might because you pressed F1 on a 17-20 second cooldown while targeting someone who generated the 25 might. Stripping the might is enough. if you want that DPS you're going to need to take a glass amulet and a damage line.

Literally this ^

Also, it is never good to make a trait (or entire tree, which is unfortunately already the case with Trickery) too strong/desirable because it limits build diversity. Reaper's Onslaught is a great example of that. It is a near mandatory trait and it works with any Reaper build. Why take anything else when the other options are so much weaker and less versatile?

If Bountiful Theft were to be buffed in the way OP suggests it would just make it a mandatory pick and make almost the entire Trickery tree a static selection across every build. Remember when Warrior was like that with Defense? It wasn't fun.

@Sobx.1758 said:

@"cyberzombie.7348" The "logic" behind that is the same as other skills having less charges, less dmg, lower duration, higher cost and otherwise weaker effects -because in competitive modes you play against other players and skills generally shouldn't be too powerful to make room for some counterplay. In pve you play with other players and mobs don't care, so the effects can be stronger. If you'll want consistency, then there's nothing standing in the way of them nerfing pve versions of the skills to the level of wvw/pvp, but somehow I don't think it will be welcomed by you, me or, well... anyone.

My main take is that boon rip abilities should be buffed in pvp and slightly more in wvw because unless you're running deadeye with mercy, ripping 2 per steal isn't going to phase an organized groups that's nigh unkillable by spamming boons and heals indefinitely with corruptions from necromancers and aoe rips/negation from spellbreakers the only 2 realistic options for counters rn.

@cyberzombie.7348 said:

@Sobx.1758 said:

@cyberzombie.7348 The "logic" behind that is the same as other skills having less charges, less dmg, lower duration, higher cost and otherwise weaker effects -because in competitive modes you play

against

other players and skills generally shouldn't be too powerful to make room for some counterplay. In pve you play

with

other players and mobs don't care, so the effects can be stronger. If you'll want consistency, then there's nothing standing in the way of them nerfing pve versions of the skills to the level of wvw/pvp, but somehow I don't think it will be welcomed by you, me or, well... anyone.

...but it shouldn't and if a single trait from a single person would be supposed to "phase an organized group" then that would be pretty stupidly strong, right?So I understood "your point", the problem I had with it was that -imo- it's... bad (the idea along with its justification, not the trait itself).

Buff one of the better (/best) traits thief has? How about we buff Trickster and change Pressure Striking instead?

@Shroud.2307 said:

@Azure The Heartless.3261 said:You can't have 25 might because you pressed F1 on a 17-20 second cooldown while targeting someone who generated the 25 might. Stripping the might is enough. if you want that DPS you're going to need to take a glass amulet and a damage line.

To be fair, thief isn't limited by 'a single trait being too strong per tree'; it's limited by every other trait in said lines ranging from mediocre to useless in nearly every meta.

@"Sobx.1758" said:

@Heizero.9183 said:Back in the day, like year 1 vanilla, Bountiful Theft used to rip full durations of boons, same with Larc strike. (I cant remember if it stole full stacks too, it may have.) To be fair it was a little op in some situations and abused. For example, I personally used to use it on Dredge in Eternal Battlegrounds in wvw to gain over 1 min of protection. Im sure there were even more ways to abuse it outside of my example and so they made every gained boon have a fixed duration.

@Azure The Heartless.3261 said:You can't have 25 might because you pressed F1 on a 17-20 second cooldown while targeting someone who generated the 25 might. Stripping the might is enough. if you want that DPS you're going to need to take a glass amulet and a damage line.

A thief can only 'abuse' boonrip if the other player is 'abusing' boons. Bountiful theft isn't the problem here.

@Jugglemonkey.8741 said:A thief can only 'abuse' boonrip if the other player is 'abusing' boons. Bountiful theft isn't the problem here.

Not true. There are cases in which the class matchup already has a lean toward thief that boonripping full stacks/dura would aggravate.

If a non glass thief boonrips a glass warrior, that skews the match further in the thief's favor, because the thief has additional damage for merely interacting with a class they already have an advantage on. Warrior vomits might for merely existing.

Same with classes that are playing support like Herald/Tempest. This issue is compounded if you let them distribute those copies to allies. A gated duration of the boon is fine, lest we get battered by complaints about thieves stabbing people for 13k because they F1ed a ranger who pressed strength of the pack.

It's fine. Boon spam letting people instantly recover their lost stacks or simply just having too many other effective boons permanently is a way more significant part of the problem.

I would say having a 100% chance of ripping stab (and interrupting if traited) is a pretty "nice thing," and has the potential to swing fights a whole lot more than stealing 25 stacks of might goes. That perk alone is huge.

However, I do think that ANet (CMC) totally overdid the general nerf to boonripping skills (not unique to Thief) and that BT should be reverted to 3 in PvP/WvW. A bit off topic, but as long as boon reapplication remains as excessive as it still is in WvW(especially with traits like Purity of Purpose), the level of boonripping should be restored to pre-patch levels on most skills in the game.