Thief Ostracization In WvW zergs

First off, Im putting the game down and probably gonna play more and more seldom due to this. This game was to have best at, not best. Due to changes in the class itself it brings hardly anything to a wvw zerg group. I'm belittled, laughed at and have a hard time trying to organize specific things regarding thief...all because everything does it better and the only thing a thief can do is maybe 2 builds that have no place in a zerg or squad comp. To be bullied based off my preferred class and to be shunned is just as bad as politics but in gw2.

The balance team knows nothing of thief but they make half-arsed changes to a class that always becomes the whipping boy. Bountiful Theft is a laughing joke and only removes a full 25 stack of might but returns it to your allies and yourself with...1 stack, hardly bountiful, the evasive traits are also a joke as 300s and no one is going to take that long cooldown trait. The class is unfortunately literally useless in a group setting outside of PvE.

I'm done, ill probably log in to help people learn the game but I wont be buying the next expansion or anything from the gemstore again until something gives EVENLY for ALL classes where thief can actually be relevant back to the prior staff pre-nerfs at LEAST.

thief can support in different ways that dont require them to be in a squad. Just run medic daredevil with the physical finisher to secure a down

I've seen some people running thief with zergs with this kind of a staff build:

@Lithril Ashwalker.6230 said:First off, Im putting the game down and probably gonna play more and more seldom due to this. This game was to have best at, not best. Due to changes in the class itself it brings hardly anything to a wvw zerg group. I'm belittled, laughed at and have a hard time trying to organize specific things regarding thief...all because everything does it better and the only thing a thief can do is maybe 2 builds that have no place in a zerg or squad comp. To be bullied based off my preferred class and to be shunned is just as bad as politics but in gw2.

The balance team knows nothing of thief but they make half-kitten changes to a class that always becomes the whipping boy. Bountiful Theft is a laughing joke and only removes a full 25 stack of might but returns it to your allies and yourself with...1 stack, hardly bountiful, the evasive traits are also a joke as 300s and no one is going to take that long cooldown trait. The class is unfortunately literally useless in a group setting outside of PvE.

I'm done, ill probably log in to help people learn the game but I wont be buying the next expansion or anything from the gemstore again until something gives EVENLY for ALL classes where thief can actually be relevant back to the prior staff pre-nerfs at LEAST.

• You can take Rending Shade or Larcenous Strike if you want play boon slot machine for a full stack of Might but you might have to adjust your boon reach with with other steal depending on priority lists and how many each take. Feel it out or wiki it.
• You might want to stagger resource pools for deliberate evade instead and maybe steer your traits and skill/utility slots toward opening groups up and then inundating them, even shortbow auto in a choke point and crits landing is good pressure. You can dismantle and open up a Firebrand real quick and that can sometimes cascade and flip a fight because you can't evade forever.

@Lithril Ashwalker.6230 said:the evasive traits are also a joke as 300s and no one is going to take that long cooldown trait. The class is unfortunately literally useless in a group setting outside of PvE.

To be fair, the evasive traits are useless anyway. Need to be part of a good squad - get stab and protection and all the shared boons as per normal squads, and then push in with them, stay on the tag, and use vault for the spike and auto attack to cleave (do a lot of dmg with staff auto attack). That's what I do. if spot something vulnerable and not part of their squad, you can try focus it - but stay aware of where everything is as getting back can prove problematic if you used Shadow Step to get to the target first and blow all the init on trying to down some squishies (often they just run into their group instead).

But yes, overall often feel sub optimal - until you're protecting your own stragglers from being ganked.

You can't play a class that is centralized in mobility, stealth, and single target damage with essentially rat urine supporting ability and expect to be welcomed to a group synergy boon fiesta. Thats not to say the boon fiesta is a good thing, but thief's talents lie in the small scale environment...

Anet does very little balance for zergs. Long range damage and mass support skills aren't on their radar, or they're actively trying to fight against it a la the shout change for tempests. The good news is, Thieves already have a lot of support skills for zergs. They just don't have a sustained offense:

Venoms for CC, Immobilize, and Chill support that sticks to teammates.Scorpion Wire to rip players away from enemy zergs or walls.Smoke Screen to stop projectiles and area denial.Seal Area for stability stripping and group control.Shadow Portal for re-taking lost towers.

I have to agree with OP. This was my experience on thief as well. No matter what build i run or how much i contribute i just get laughed at and mobbed by the zergs from my own server. Usually you don't even get chance to do anything - you just get instantly kicked because the truth is, every other class does everything better that thief could potentially offer to the zerg. So at the end we are either pigeonholed into roaming which end up in 1000 wvw threads asking to delete thief (yeah, how dare a class that was forced into roaming and build for it actually kill someone) or reroll something else.

I personally NEVER got trashtalked by the zerg when i played other classes, NO matter how crappy i played. If however Anet support did their job then half of the wvw population from my server would be probably banned given how much i was griefed by them simply for playing thief.

@Cynz.9437 said:I have to agree with OP. This was my experience on thief as well. No matter what build i run or how much i contribute i just get laughed at and mobbed by the zergs from my own server. Usually you don't even get chance to do anything - you just get instantly kicked because the truth is, every other class does everything better that thief could potentially offer to the zerg. So at the end we are either pigeonholed into roaming which end up in 1000 wvw threads asking to delete thief (yeah, how dare a class that was forced into roaming and build for it actually kill someone) or reroll something else.

I personally NEVER got trashtalked by the zerg when i played other classes, NO matter how crappy i played. If however Anet support did their job then half of the wvw population from my server would be probably banned given how much i was griefed by them simply for playing thief.

Every other class doesn't have fluid ranged positioning with Initiative as a resource pool. Both of my main builds are for covering and I feel way more safe in large fights than the people I'm covering or intercepting for. I do agree in the sense that other class mechanics are designed to be part of a composition while ours are more for securing it from reach or dismantling it from the other side and that dynamic isn't made clear to players by the game and patches and updates haven't deliberately strengthened that aspect for us.

If u love teef in wvw why u wanna be zergling anyway? Lol. Do what u do best and roam or scout, and when around s blob fight pick off scraglerz on the outskirts of the fight, just make sure u have a port ready to go when focused. This is thread is like the flip side of all the zergling's flooding the forums crying to nerf thief cuz their zerg builds gets killed by thief(a roamer) while on way to their zerg.Some classes are great in zergs but bad roamers or ok at both or great roamers aka thief and Ranger but bad in zergs.If u main teef accept ur never gonna be a class wanted in zergs and thats OK cuz roamers lives matter to.

I regularly run Deadeye Glass Canon build with zergs and cannot remember being ridiculed, laughed at or chased away.Maybe there is a difference in the squads on the server I run, compared to your server, but where I play, they understand the value of the thief, in whichever spec it comes.

What you experience, is more a squad that - in my humble oppinion - is too stuck in their blob ways to recognize the value of the Thief, or any other "less popular" classes for that manner.

A good commander sees someone on a class and gets creative thinking how they can use that class, rather than "I don't need that class - go away"

Yeah it probably depends on the server and groups running on that server.

I’ve never had any bad experiences running with any group on FA personally. I see thieves in the pug squads all the time and never seen or been flamed by anyone ever.

My favorite Zerg build is a nomads gear build with runes of the dolyak and soldiers trinkets. My damage is sub trash tier. But running sword pistol and short bow I pin down stragglers for team makes to kill and operate as a interupt/disable bot and allows me to drop aggro and apply stealth to pick up downed allies. It works out pretty well. I think thieves can be pretty useful in a Zerg if you manage expectations.

I've helped zerg fights with speed runes, acro and Choking Gas. You'd be amazed how much it softens the tip of a push. Basically, wait for a enemy zerg push > aim at tip > Dash back > daze interrupts > ez kills.

It was fine before the expansions but the powercreep phased out the assassination and need of periphery in the old glassy DPS in front-to-back teamfighting like in old metas. With the boonball and so much defense on so much ranged/AoE DPS it's hard to really actually route/flank anyone or make meaningful burst attempts.

Unfortunately the thief just can't be given the damage or support capability enough to support a zerg so long as it has the stealth and evasion/mobility it does in smaller fights on D/P DE/DrD. It'd just become way too OP for anything otherwise.

@Zacchary.6183 said:I've helped zerg fights with speed runes, acro and Choking Gas. You'd be amazed how much it softens the tip of a push. Basically, wait for a enemy zerg push > aim at tip > Dash back > daze interrupts > ez kills.

If in a blob vs blob they're pushing with no aegis or stability, then a thief poison field doing a daze if their actively casting is going to be the least of their problems.

Deadeyes and Staff DDs are often played in havocs and such, but if people are running a serious large scale zerg, there really is no place for Thief.Thief has its strengths and unfortunately their strength is not in largescale combat where their shenanigans have no impact.

Yu know, everyone is given 5 character slots.Make another character focused for zerging and keep Thief around for roaming.

I think bow 4 unblockable aoe daze interrupt is a beautiful thing, and while it doesn't carry a flashy high damage number with it, I think it can be even more deadly if you manage to get it done on an important skill cast by the enemy. Meanwhile aoe poison on downs, and also double pump deadeye mark to down weak targets is also nice to catch strays off guard.

Unfortunately combat was pushed into more of a zerg boon ball style rather than front/back line of the past. But if all you want to do is run in a zerg and throw out boons and aoes, then run a more zergy built class for it I guess, thieves still have their uses around zergs.

@"Lithril Ashwalker.6230" said:I'm belittled, laughed atTo be bullied based off my preferred class and to be shunnedr/thatHappened

Here is the reality about thieves in zergs from someone who occasionally pugmands:Nothing wrong with the class. Lots of options to build a solid productive zergling with it...But no one does.

Every time I pugmand there are two types of players that are never on tag. Rangers and Thieves. If there's someone off tag, giving our position away, squirelling after some useless roamer to chase a shred of wxp it's a Thief or a Ranger.I would gladly welcome a solid pogo thief in my squad but you never see them. A good Deadeye can keep crazy boons up on a line, but again... you never see those either.Never.The Thieves you do get in zergs are low-effort, low-skill players who think that staying on tag refers to everyone but them. Who don't want to run a solid zerging build and think they can just gank in a group. At absolute worst, they show up in your squad and ask for participation as a "scout".The ones with any actual skill tend to move on to solo roaming in order to make their montage videos.Now days when I tag up I put all the players who I think are going to be dead weight into the bottom group until they prove otherwise. There is zero value putting a player on a line that gets stab when they are never there to gt the boon. Longbow Rangers, minionmancer Necros and Theives all go into this party by default.

This has ZERO to do with the class. It has nothing to do with balance. It's not on Arenanet in the slightest.You want your class to be accepted into a zerg warmly?Show up on a build that provides some real value and stay on tag.Most Thieves just don't.

I've experienced this. Logged in on my thief to waste some time and have some fun. Joined a WvW squad and was literally harassed all my time there. They weren't even doing anything particularly intense, organised, just a regular PUG zerg squad.

@Chips.7968 said:

@Zacchary.6183 said:I've helped zerg fights with speed runes, acro and Choking Gas. You'd be amazed how much it softens the tip of a push. Basically, wait for a enemy zerg push > aim at tip > Dash back > daze interrupts > ez kills.

Often their stability and aegis gets eaten away by random attacks anyways. Choking gas just makes it easier to chip away at anyone who comes to the front, buffed or not.

@mindcircus.1506 said:

@"Lithril Ashwalker.6230" said:I'm belittled, laughed atTo be bullied based off my preferred class and to be shunnedr/thatHappened

r/thathappened

• Most squads and blobs have support and core comp people spreading out and it's usually us floaters who roll them back up and interrupt them getting stomped.
• Of course they don't want to use faceplant builds and they're more useful to you tethered at about 900 distance.
• I manage my boons fine, I think you don't actually know what people are doing out there and you're just making stuff up based on a few times of seeing stuff like that while ignoring all the turds in your core needing help.

Honestly If there was a new class mechanic of stealing boons to apply to allies nearby you that would be epic...replace bountiful theft then. convert it to Boons you apply to allies last longer, gain an extra amount of concentration for 30s when you steal.

On 2/20/2021 at 12:08 PM, Jitae.3715 said:

Yeah it probably depends on the server and groups running on that server.

I’ve never had any bad experiences running with any group on FA personally. I see thieves in the pug squads all the time and never seen or been flamed by anyone ever.

My favorite Zerg build is a nomads gear build with runes of the dolyak and soldiers trinkets. My damage is sub trash tier. But running sword pistol and short bow I pin down stragglers for team makes to kill and operate as a interupt/disable bot and allows me to drop aggro and apply stealth to pick up downed allies. It works out pretty well. I think thieves can be pretty useful in a Zerg if you manage expectations.

I know I'm several months late to the thread, but I also run S/P, though with mostly sentinel gear.  While, yeah, I hit like a wet noodle, that isn't my purpose in the fight.  I'll give you an example from earlier today.  We were in the fight in the lord's room in fire keep.  I popped into their backlines and disrupted their refresh with pistol whip, they wasted their bomb trying to kill me while I dashed back to my group, who then just ran them over. It should be noted that I wasn't with an organized guild group, just some random pugs who responded to the callout.  The group we ran over, for the most part was a single guild with a few extras.

It's not something that can be seen when just crunching numbers, so most people don't actually understand what a properly built thief can bring to a zerg.  Like in sports, it's the intangibles that aren't measured on the stats sheets.  I just wish Anet would give us more access to stability and maybe better boonsharing.  

I think the truth is met halfway. Some players just want to leech from the zerg without providing any value to the group, and some commanders are just biased (maybe for good reasons, won't deny, but still they may miss giving a good player a chance). When I play on my thief, if I decide to join a blob, I focus on being helpful: using aoe weapons, sharing venom, stealth ressing, porting, flanking, picking stragglers, etc.

If the thief rushes to frontlines, has single target focus, doesn't help in  any way, and basically is just a ressbot... well, then that's the pathway to be an outcast

On 2/22/2021 at 4:40 PM, kash.9213 said:

 

Here is the reality about thieves in zergs from someone who occasionally pugmands:Nothing wrong with the class. Lots of options to build a solid productive zergling with it...But no one does.

 

Every time I pugmand there are two types of players that are

never

on tag. Rangers and Thieves.

If there's someone off tag, giving our position away, squirelling after some useless roamer to chase a shred of wxp it's a Thief or a Ranger.

I would gladly welcome a solid pogo thief in my squad but you never see them. A good Deadeye can keep crazy boons up on a line, but again... you never see those either.Never.

The Thieves you do get in zergs are low-effort, low-skill players who think that staying on tag refers to everyone but them. Who don't want to run a solid zerging build and think they can just gank in a group.

At absolute worst, they show up in your squad and ask for participation as a "scout".The ones with any actual skill tend to move on to solo roaming in order to make their montage videos.Now days when I tag up I put all the players who I think are going to be dead weight into the bottom group until they prove otherwise. There is zero value putting a player on a line that gets stab when they are never there to gt the boon. Longbow Rangers, minionmancer Necros and Theives all go into this party by default.

 

This has ZERO to do with the class. It has nothing to do with balance. It's not on Arenanet in the slightest.You want your class to be accepted into a zerg warmly?Show up on a build that provides some real value and stay on tag.Most Thieves just don't.

 

r/thathappened

• Most squads and blobs have support and core comp people spreading out and it's usually us floaters who roll them back up and interrupt them getting stomped.
• Of course they don't want to use faceplant builds and they're more useful to you tethered at about 900 distance.
• I manage my boons fine, I think you don't actually know what people are doing out there and you're just making stuff up based on a few times of seeing stuff like that while ignoring all the turds in your core needing help.

I'm half a year late to this but the issue here is that a good thief who is capable of being effective can't be effective without stability and can't prove themselves until they get the stability. It is a risk giving them the opportunity though as other classes are easier to do well with in a zerg.

Also there are some commanders who say "we need more damage" and move the daredevil that just did the most damage and created the most downs into the reject party so even proving yourself doesn't always work just because you are a thief.