Contradictory and none coherent Renegade designs

Since Renegade has been around for a while and players got sufficient time to test, I found several contradictory and none coherent designs within Renegade itself and with Rev as a whole.

First, Rev as a whole is a class that falls somewhere between thief and a warrior. It has some good mobility, evade and disengage skills. It clearly has less mobility than a thief, but it is more survivable. Herald came as a support through boons. Primarily as on offensive support. Which takes us to Renegade. You would think a "Renegade" with a short bow would be a hit and run type of elite. It surely is not. It performs the same role as Herald. That is not a big deal, I guess it is a "naming" contradiction. Though right off the bat, we have two elites with the same role.

This takes is to SB. Most ranged weapons have a game mode where they serve a specific function. Thief uses SB for mobility, mainly in PvP. Ranger uses SB for mobility + condi damage in both PvP and PvE. Ranger LB, is long range damage, and is meta in sPvP. DH LB, sPvP long range/aoe dps. Warrior LB is condi dps. It is meta in dps PvE. Rev SB? Not sure. You would never switch to it in PvE for damage. It lacks the single target damage to kill anything in sPvP. It surely is not an AOE weapon. Skills 3 is extremely unreliable. Skill 4 is wayyyyy tooooo slow. It does not synerize with Renegade as a whole. Also, SB is the only 5 weapon slots that do not have evasion or block skill in the entire Rev weapon set.

Going back to Renegade role. I kind feel the devs wanted to do a combo of a hit and run, AOE target support and area denial. Yet, Renegade fails on two out three miserably.

1. For hit and run, Renegade has no access to swiftness, no faster movement speed, SB has no evasive skills, neither does mace. You get vigor through Brutal Momentum, but it is locked behind fury. The only way Renegade to access fury, outside invocation, is to critically hit a target below 50% HP (Endless Enmity). How is fury and vigor related and why is vigor locked behind walls if it is supposed to be the hit and run to go to skill? Same goes to Wrought-Iron Will trait, tied to evading an attack, which Renegade only does by dodging. The dodge support tool hidden behind obtaining an offensive buff, with no easy access through the elite line itself..

2. AOE target support, works, kinda. At least in PvE. The AOE is big enough to cover a good area. Though here is were things begin to get redundant. All for One trait, protection. Familiar, right? Herald does major protection uptime support. Healing through Breakrazor's Bastion Soulcleave's Summit. Herald, reg. Herald and Renegade here are not super similar. I think Soulcleave's Summit is unique and strong, but good luck holding it for more than 2-3 secs, due to energy. The 50% condi damage reduction is solid, assuming Breakrazor is not CCed. I did not mention Razorclaw's Rage, cuz honestly, that is just extra damage for yourself when you have 3+ allies. It is not support by any means. Renegade is successful here, but only PvE wise.

3. Then area denial. I can see Darkrazor as reasonable area denial. Somewhat Icerazor (naming contradiction strikes again!). But lets face it, area denial skills that work have to punish enemies through damage. Think here scourge shades or DH traps. Renegade utilities damage is not a factor what so ever. Most importantly, the utilities themselves can be CCed and destroyed, rendering them almost useless in any sPvP group fight.

Going through the trait line, I covered Wrought-Iron Will (no synergy). Brutal Momentum, beside the non-existent connection between fury and vigor, I am not sure what is the connection between endurance and damage. The only other class that has this is ranger. In ranger's case you deal 10% more damage at full endurance, however, it is meant to be used in conjunction with LB at long distance, where you deal more damage if not pressured. For Renegade it makes no sense. SB range is limited and dodging is the only way to avoid damage for Renegade to start-off, so.. you will have to dodge.

Then energy.. Rev favorite subject. If we theoretically suggest that all pre-PoF legends energy costs were balanced, then how are you supposed to use F2-F4 skills? Where is the energy for them? Renegade utilities are super expensive as well. The F2-F4 skills energy costs is pretty darn high. And neither of them is that strong to begin with. So how are supposed to use them? I realized most of the time I use them is between fights in open world PvE. Hardly useful use..

To conclude, we have an elite spec that is supposed to be hit and run, AOE target support and area denial. Only succeeds in one area, only in PvE and is awfully familiar to the previous elite. Has a weapon that does not synergize with any role, with it is 2 main damage skills being barely functional. It works well only with the existing melee condi weapon skills and only in PvE. The only reason it is used in PvE not for its successful role, support, but for the 20% condi damage + 300 ferocity.

To not close on a sad note, suggestion:

1. Renegade needs much improved mobility.
2. LB skills 1, 2, 3 and 4 need work. 1 & 2 slight damage buff, 3 probably re-work, 4 much faster action.
3. Renegade needs evasion or block somewhere. Either on SB or one of the utilities.
4. The fury/vigor and damage/endurance connection need to die.
5. Energy costs of F2-F4 skills should be close to non-existent, or need major boost in effectiveness, since you are using them at the cost of using utilities and/or weapon(s) skills.
6. Utilities need their energy being looked into as well. Probably knocking 5 energy of each and Soulcleave from 9 to 8 should suffice.
7. Utilities must be reliable to use in PvP.
8. Burn the AOE denial concept. It does not work or fit Renegade.

@otto.5684 said:

7. Utilities must be reliable to use in PvP.

I said this in a different post but I'll repeat again: Renegade, due structural design, doesn't belongs to PvP and will never work. Trying to put him in PvP through patches will be as demanding (and doomed to failure) as trying to genetically enhance a french bulldog to run in a greyhound race. Did you saw the short legs, the grotesque proportions, the perplexed face, the struggling for just breathing ? Isn't going to happen.

Aside from that, excellent post: breaks downs perfectly the nature os the Renegade. I only disagree in the conclusion: I think that ANet shouldn't waste time trying to make playable at PvP a spec which isn't mean to play that game mode. Any effort in that front should be as futile as trying to make the Spiritual Weapon Guardian a thing in that game mode. Better they focus in improving core Rev and Herald or start to work in the next spec; Renegade's PvP/roaming is beyond salvation.

@Buran.3796 said:

@otto.5684 said:

7. Utilities must be reliable to use in PvP.

I dunno of any HoT elite that is not sPvP viable (if not at least with one meta build pre PoF). I can make Renegade sPvP viable with some changes:

1. Utilities are indestructible.
2. Reduce cost of each utility by 5 energy.
3. Soul cleave costs 8 energy.
4. Redesign SB 3. Now evasion + mobility skill. 5 energy cost and 5 sec CD.
5. Redistribute SB 3 damage among SB 1, 2 and 4.
6. SB 4 is much faster, remove the slow and put cripple.
7. F2 cost is 5 energy and no cast time. Also provides 5 sec swiftness.
8. F3 cost is 20 energy. It has 15 sec CD already.
9. F4 cost is 10 energy, CD from 20 to 15. Alacrity from 4 to 3 secs.
10. Righteous Rebel, instead of what it does reduce CD from 15 to 12. Consumes Kalla's Fervor stacks, removing one condi from you per stack.
11. Wrought-Iron Will, casting a warband removes one condi from you and 5 allies.
12. Brutal Momentum, gain vigor when evading an attack. Same CD and duration. Increase critic chance against targets that have have bleed condi.

Solves all PvE issues and majority of sPvP issues as well, with the only major change is SB 3 re-design. SB becomes sPvP meta, with swiftness and evasions you can play hit and run. Nuke from distance (short distance) using SB 2 and 4 and F3. SB 3 + F2 for evasions + hit and run. SB 4 + Ice do cripple as well, so you can kite melee. Righteous Rebel and Wrought-Iron Will, to fight condi cancer. Heck, you can play this without Mallyx, so you can use Shiro for even more kiting potential. Renegade+invocation will be required, but you are open to use Devastation or Corruption for more damage and Retribution for additional suvivability.

Clearly this is not "tested," but theoretically should work. It also provides alternative roles, dps/support (same as what we already do in PvE) or mid range hit and run, mainly for PvP/soling PvE champs. I am sure Anet devs can do much better than this, it they, quoting Kalla: "put their best to it."

@otto.5684 said:

I dunno of any HoT elite that is not sPvP viable (if not at least with one meta build pre PoF). I can make Renegade sPvP viable with some changes:

Deadeye is arguably much weaker than Daredevil and I doubt it will even get a slot in conformed "pro teams". Mirage also isn't exactly above the Chronomancer.

People uses Renegade at PvE due provides a buff in damage with things like Kalla's Fervor or Brutal Momentum; those buffs are highly dependant on fighting relatively static targets usually which lack any kind of reactive pattern. That setting is almost the opposite of what happens in PvP, a stage in which foes actively try to prevent your damage and do pose a threat, which forces you to to spend endurance and break rotations.

So the Renegade trailine really doesn't offer anything of value for PvP: the bow is both weak ofensively and in defense or mobility; Kalla is weaker than Glint, Shiro, Mallyx and Jalis, so has no priority replacing any of them in a condi build.

And also some of those changes seems to be impossible: sb #3 with evasion + gap at 5 energy with a 5 sec cd? Gaining vigor (wich enhances the endurance regeneration) while evading an attack (which cost endurance)? That two things alone would break the game. Is not going to happen.

This why I said HoT elites. It will take PoF elites few month to be ironed out. If you are comparing dare devil with dead eye you are doing it wrong. Compare dare devil with other HoT elites.

The point of this thread is to point out issues. It is up to the devs to find resolutions. However saying that a specific elite is only viable in a specific mode is just 1) dumb 2) is not true evident by the previous elites.

I can agree with the OP's breakdown of Renegade and its flaws.If SB isnt going to be an effective, heavy condition applying weapon, it at least needs to be decent at debilitating foes while granting skirmishing abilities in an evade/movement skill.

Furthermore, I seriously disagree with the notion that a spec should be "designed for a game mode" and only viable for one or two alone. Elite specs should be able to be used in multiple areas of the game while providing a new role to play, or new tools to enhance a base profession's kit to expand on existing roles.. If its not performing well in a certain mode, steps can be taken to remedy this - we have skill splitting after all.

Its a matter of whether or not Anet wants to make an effort to make this happen

@Euthymias.7984 said:

Its a matter of whether or not Anet wants to make an effort to make this happen

A few months ago Anet tried to "make Ventari a thing" in PvP. I didn't play that build because I don't like that legend, I disliked the whole concept and even though that there were better support classes in the game. I also avoided Ventari because they blatantly overbuffered it making a "cheesy build" which I knew that would lead to popularity in low tier PvP matches which later would lead to moaning in the forums and will end butchered anyway. Which is what happened.

I think that nothing in the Renegade design reveals the spec as one conceived to be played in WvW or PvP, in the same way that nothing in the Revenant lets glimpse the notion of the core Rev as a functional class at the same ground as the Herald spec. So the only way they could make Renegade a thing in those landscapes (without a entire redesign which, due material constraints, won't happen) is overbuffing stats, which again would lead to umbalances and the (again) inevitable nefs.

We won't see Ventari Revs in PvP because honestly even without the nerfs was a weak build that has no place in which support Tempest or Firebrand do exists. We won't see Renegades in PvP because there's better designed classes centered in AoE conditions and cc. Just lacks the DNA for those game modes. And I think that to some extent the main reason is due different classes have different teams tweaking their design and some of those developers probably doesn't touch some game modes with some classes.

renegade role is not hit and run. revenenat is not combination of thief and warrior . the ability to chose legends is what makes the role. shiro makes you a thief, jalis a warrior, ventari a healer, mallyx a condi. renegade role is to be front line and dash in to do great party support and aoe dmg and move out. so its like aoe thief if you might call it that way. so the main dmg comes from his party (or should come from his warbands utilities), by the design of the trait it should have been easy from him to put enemy on 50% hp before they attack or pressure him (vigor and fury proc), it should and it is easy to gain kalla fervor stacks (the only good design).while herald focus on team support via boons sharing, renegade support his team via dmg buff, 25 vulnerability stacks, more bleeding stacks, aoe daze, leech life and dmg and condi dmg reduction with healing skill for 10 sec!!!.

on paper should have been meta pvp role. but the main problems are (some you mention correctly)

1. as frontliner he has no sustain at all. no evade on weapon or block. nice kb but with slow animation.
2. very low pressure via dmg. the combination of low dmg and low sustain is what really hurts renegade and push him to play only pve.
3. no realy anti condi management . even with 50% and 33% dmg reduction any class must have good cleanse. combine it with low dmg pressure and no sustain the condi dmg reduction is not helpful at all.
4. high nrg cost makes this role slow skills proc/activation. so again no burst combo. its like you have to be front line and only tell your team what to do while you press 1 skill and wait 5 sec to press other skill. you cannot really buff or support your team. not to mention almost any skill and utilities is easy to avoid by moving out of the area or straff, or cc.

so as you can see there is a simple way to address renegade issue

1. improve the dmg of SB. the more dmg it has the less sustain it needs as it can pressure the enemy to play defense. SB needs a lot more dmg buff to direct dmg. it seems to be design as hybrid weapon as it has low duration of condition and not much condi stacks either. so increase the direct dmg by 100% of all skills may grant the renegade more range pressure. also reduce SB skills cd by 20% (3,4, and 5)
2. why not improve the condi dmg? as renegade has low condi management so SP and SCOURGE will just counter him easy with condi transfer.
3. or improve his sustain over dmg. more hard to apply as renegade needs evade skill, and much cleanse abilities. but it seems with kalla and healing skill it design to win a condi war as his dmg should be higher with all the dmg modification while have reduction of condi dmg on himself. (atm it failed design but great concept)
4. rethink utilities nrg. even with low cd they hardly make any effect. they shouldnt be cc at all. can be killable to counter their effect. should have larger radius 360. and even longer duration on the field which make the enemy to change focus off the renegade.razarclaw should proc 2 bleed or have longer bleed duration. also give allies 10% buff to condi and direct dmg. 20 nrg costicerazor should proc ice field. 20 nrg costdarkrazor 25 nrg costsoulcleave dmg buff by 33% and nrg cost -7*breakrazor should self cleanse 1 condition every second and nrg should be 5 as any other healing skill.
5. F skills have no use at all in any game mode (alomst). have high nrg demands. and hardly support your team or self.
   • f2 - should proc also aoe stability and with no cast time
   • f3 - reduce nrg to 25, reduce cast time to 0.5sec, should also proc chill.
   • f4 - renew abilities - 2 sec renew ??? . so first increase duration of alacrity for 10 sec which means 3 sec skill reduce (why its not OP as ventari dont needs it for itself with its low cd). and give regen and resistance boon for 1 sec 5 stacks so it cannot be removed.

this design is more focus on team fight frontline role. protect your team from condition dmg, heal them, leach and buff their dmg on the battle field.

@Buran.3796 said:

@Euthymias.7984 said:

Its a matter of whether or not Anet wants to make an effort to make this happen

i can say i was the first who play ventari even before the change to the elite. ventari has the best healing abilities and with 1 or 2 tweaks can win his role back to the healing spot. how ? more cleanse abilities. tempest and firebrand has amazing cleanse abilities while lower healing per second. if you give the ventari better way to cleanse even without the kb of the elite i am sure it will enter the meta as valid build. firebrand give more stability, regen, aegis while tempest auras and burst heal while ventari sustain heal (can also burst) range abilities and kb ability (which is useless atm)

small fix is the make EE cleanse 5 conditions with its 10 sec cd. no lose of nrg. or make the healing fragment to cleanse 1 condition

renegade design to be pure aoe hybrid class as it buff the team with condi dmg and direct dmg while also nice aoe heals. its unique design as each class or role is or condi or direct dmg.

Without mobility and evasive skills renegade will never be good at anything but dps in PvE. SB will never see the daylight.

I did see Anet give a stealth buff to renegades in PVE. They've changed it so a lot of enemy attacks simply don't hit the summons. Originally, using Kalla against Skorvald used to be an exercise in frustration, but now all of the attacks just go right through the charr without hitting them.

@Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:I did see Anet give a stealth buff to renegades in PVE. They've changed it so a lot of enemy attacks simply don't hit the summons. Originally, using Kalla against Skorvald used to be an exercise in frustration, but now all of the attacks just go right through the charr without hitting them.

if so good work but still renegade needs more buffs, dmg, sustain, condition cleanse, cover conditions less nrg and some icd of skills

@otto.5684 said:Without mobility and evasive skills renegade will never be good at anything but dps in PvE. SB will never see the daylight.

Exactly. I would like to see SB #2 get something a bit like sword #5, so when you fire the shot, you are teleported back a bit from your current point. SB doesn't strike me as a blocking weapon, but evasion more than fits that role.

Edit: it would also be nice to see some sort of condi cleanse attached to the stability charr. We have 2 offensive units, a buff unit, and 1 defensive unit, but no real way of condi cleanse. Even if it is just the initial pulse, or just a few pulses, anything would be helpful.

Their interview vids became like apple ones. Hyped with visuals and then get disappointed for not having basic features, like an earphone jack.

@Klowdy.3126 said:

@otto.5684 said:Without mobility and evasive skills renegade will never be good at anything but dps in PvE. SB will never see the daylight.

The problem is, they keep pushing that "reduce condi damage by X amount" crap instead, which is useless really. When I'm crippled, chilled, slowed, blinded, poisoned, weakened, and feared at the same god damn time, I don't care that I'm taking less condi damage from the couple stacks of damaging conditions the average PvE enemy can do to me. I basically have to take Ventari or stack concentration like crazy with Mallyx and do nothing but spam PA on energy gain to deal with conditions. If there's one thing I really hate about Rev, it's how we have to exclusively build to deal with CC and condis at the expense of a lot of other things. And on topic with Renegade design, Icerazor is really out of place with the others (a wet noodle damaging spirit in comparison to an AoE support spirit the others are), Razorclaw's bleed output is laughable, Soulcleave should really be -8 or -7 upkeep instead of -9, and all of them need some sort of CC immunity. SB is terrible too, but that's already been discussed to death. The traitline as a whole is boring as hell, and just a bunch of number increases besides a handful of lackluster traits (grandmaster trait 2 more seconds of alacrity on our 25 energy 20 sec cooldown F skill, gee thanks Anet). It's a Legendary Stance that offers support spirits, but the traitline is mostly selfish DPS gain, and the weapon is some weird hybrid damage thing that sucks while the F skills are way too costly and mostly useless or extremely situational.

@Buran.3796 said:

@otto.5684 said:

7. Utilities must be reliable to use in PvP.

The legend is a lost cause, indeed. But given a lot of effort, the rest of the specialization could be salvaged to function in an okay state.Unlikely that ArenaNet wants to hear about Revenant again till the next expansion, but it's not impossible.

@Rym.1469 said:

@Buran.3796 said:

@otto.5684 said:

7. Utilities must be reliable to use in PvP.

While you can salvage something coherent from the traitline (retaliation/counter cc/might/bonus ferocity & condi dmg), it's nothing that can even come close to what you give up from not taking Herald, IMO. Facet of Light alone is almost required in the current sPvP metascape... Without it you have to play so insanely perfect and careful--especially when you're anywhere even remotely near a teamfight, because it only takes one second of lapse on your part or dedicated focus on their part and you're covered in conditions with no way to recover. At least with Infused Light you can jump into a team fight and eat condi bombs long enough to do your damage and get out.

I dont think is a lost cause ,it just need a redesign,and to do so nothing better than to look at gw1 ritualist.

If the warband members are destructible ,they should remain on play until destroyed or change legend.They energy cost should be way lower or nonexistant.Once summoned they have an active skill,a condie clean,teleport,stunbreaker whatever it make sense,and active skills should have energy cost.F2,f3,f4, should be atached to the warband members and traits asociated but they will also should remain useful with other legends.

F2: return energy per kallas fervorF3: dont know,honestly ,this one should be completly redone.F4: increase damage and attack speed of warband members and aditional function if no warband members summoned.

And lastly ,the shortbow needs a complety overhaul ,just look at rangers and thief sb,not every skill on the weapon should be damage,it needs utilty and defense.

This is all very basic ,but i dont think will be very hard to implement.

@Rym.1469 said:The legend is a lost cause, indeed. But given a lot of effort, the rest of the specialization could be salvaged to function in an okay state.Unlikely that ArenaNet wants to hear about Revenant again till the next expansion, but it's not impossible.

They haved actually the occasion to do a proper job with revenant rework for POF release and the introduction of renegade but they haven't do Nothing. I HIGHLY doubt they are going to do Something for the next expansion or even doing Something with the revenant class in a whole. It would need a lot of work. But hey, i hope i'm wrong... having a class being in a beta statut is kind of bad for the game balance in a whole. But i admit i have loss all faith in an eventual rework of the revenant class which they have rushed and butchered for release HOT quickly.

@tigrawahi.2694 said:And lastly ,the shortbow needs a complety overhaul ,just look at rangers and thief sb,not every skill on the weapon should be damage,it needs utilty and defense.

To be honest, renegade shortbow feels more like a longbow. Scorchrazor plays a similar role to Pin Down, Point Blank Shot, and traited Deflecting Shot: relying on hindering the enemy's mobility rather than maintaining high mobility yourself.

Even by that paradigm, however, it seems to fall short: dragonhunters and rangers don't rely on a single skill to hinder the enemy's mobility, and a knockdown arguably isn't as useful for that as a knockback. One appropriate response could be to make Spiritcrush into a cripple, or at least adding something onto another renegade shortbow skill that hinders enemy mobility.

@draxynnic.3719 said:

@tigrawahi.2694 said:And lastly ,the shortbow needs a complety overhaul ,just look at rangers and thief sb,not every skill on the weapon should be damage,it needs utilty and defense.

Spiritcrush has slow which is superior to cripple but I agree with your point. It appears that ANET wants us to lock down our enemies with the KD from scorchrazor into spiritcrush but the slow is short duration and the field can be countered by a dodge roll. Replacing it with immobilize would help but only marginally since the whole set is clunky. The requirement of facing your enemy to use spiritcrush eliminates the kiting potential and only adds to the clunkiness. It's 1/2 sec auto attack puts it in between feeling like a shortbow and a longbow but it has neither(none) the mobility of a traditional shortbow, nor the lock down of longbow. I'm going to agree with everyone else saying it needs a complete overhaul. I've tried to make it work and it doesn't. Even if you try swapping to mace/axe during melee and back to sb in range, it feels like a huge risk to do so because you have very little damage and pressure for 9 seconds while on sb.

Control is not a renegade capability. Heck, I would argue that the only class with any ranged control capability is ranger. And even they would have serious difficulty maintaining distance for more than 2-3 seconds. I dunno anyone in sPvP not running multiple cleanses and CC breakers to begin with.

The way the game balance is designed forces majority of encounters in to be melee.

I wish renegade had a trait that reduced weapon swap cooldown.Feels like the best way to play the class is to camp a weapon/legend combo, as the cooldowns on weapon and legend swapping creates a lack of accessible synergies.

@tigrawahi.2694 said:I dont think is a lost cause ,it just need a redesign,and to do so nothing better than to look at gw1 ritualist.

If the warband members are destructible ,they should remain on play until destroyed or change legend.They energy cost should be way lower or nonexistant.Once summoned they have an active skill,a condie clean,teleport,stunbreaker whatever it make sense,and active skills should have energy cost.F2,f3,f4, should be atached to the warband members and traits asociated but they will also should remain useful with other legends.

F2: return energy per kallas fervorF3: dont know,honestly ,this one should be completly redone.F4: increase damage and attack speed of warband members and aditional function if no warband members summoned.

And lastly ,the shortbow needs a complety overhaul ,just look at rangers and thief sb,not every skill on the weapon should be damage,it needs utilty and defense.

This is all very basic ,but i dont think will be very hard to implement.

wait..... did you just suggest the Warband spirits operate like old Engineer turrets?

@Redfeather.6401 said:I wish renegade had a trait that reduced weapon swap cooldown.Feels like the best way to play the class is to camp a weapon/legend combo, as the cooldowns on weapon and legend swapping creates a lack of accessible synergies.

Weapon swap, yes, but you always want to swap lengeds when you can or else you're losing a lot of DPS