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When will Weaver follow the Mirage?

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  • Master Ketsu.4569Master Ketsu.4569 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 21, 2021

    Fire weaver isn't nearly as degenerate as condi mirage was.

    First off, understand that the main issue with condi mirage was it also had broken mobility/disengage potential in addition to being a "condi bunker". Also, around 50% of the damage comes from clonespam and passive procs from IH/DD/etc. What this meant was you could just unload on someone then kite around playing super passively while your clones continued to tick people for free damage and your other skills were on recharge -attacking and defending at the same time. This strategy was very effective, very easy to pull off, very low risk, and as a result also very uninteractive/annoying to fight against. It technically still is, it just doesn't seem as bad because the balance team has basically made the numbers on the class intentionally bad since it mechanically breaks the game whenever it is viable.

    Weaver has none of that nonsense. Weaver has different issues, such as the fact that too much damage is loaded into the stances instead of the weapon skills, it arguably has slightly too high sustain, and Ele animations have too much "animation that plays after the skill has already hit" going on. But none of these make it compare. Most of all, it does not have broken levels of mobility. Meaning it can only sidenode, and is not so effective as a roamer, and is thus much more susceptible to being +1d than Mirage was.

    TL;DR learn to rotate.

  • I've been out of the loop. Can anyone tell me what this supposedly busted Fire Weaver is? I'd like to know, largely for WvW purposes.

    "Self awareness is knowing when you're sitting at the throne of ignorance." --Leo G.

  • Leonidrex.5649Leonidrex.5649 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Widmo.3186 one nerf is not equal to another my dude.
    you can have 2 skills that are equally strong, nerf one by 10% another by 50%. Technically you nerfed both, yet one of them is almost twice as strong as the other.
    Invigorating Strikes gives 671 barrier down from 894, its 25% barrier nerf, most dmg skills got around ~30% dmg nerfs. Add in fact that healing power coof didnt get touched, and weavers often if not always run sage ( 500 healing power ) and you end up with 1k barrier, down from 1224, and its like 18,3% nerf to barrier instead off 25% that most builds got
    while some skills got 40% barrier nerfs but now that im looking through them, NONE of them got healing coof reductions, making the actual nerfs much lower.
    Stone resonance didnt get nerfed at all for example and it will give somewhere around 7k barrier over it duration.
    The fact that weaver has 2 stacks of those, and extra one as passive means that just from those they get over 21k kitten barrier. Am I fighting an ele or a necro ?
    Doing something about passive barrier spam should be the first if any way to nerf weaver, and stone resonance looks like prime candidate.
    And if not base barrier nerfs then maybe some healing power coof nerfs to barrier, so that power oriented weaver builds that dont get to run healing power get affected less if at all.
    The entire mentality off " it was nerfed so leave it be " is really bad, where is the line drawn? Following that logic holo shouldnt be touched after the first light nerf on grenades.

  • Leonidrex.5649Leonidrex.5649 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:
    I've been out of the loop. Can anyone tell me what this supposedly busted Fire Weaver is? I'd like to know, largely for WvW purposes.

    its for 1v1 in pvp, I doubt it applies to wvw since nobody has to every fight anyone 1v1 if they dont feel like it. Making 1v1 builds mostly pointless.

  • Widmo.3186Widmo.3186 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 21, 2021

    @Shao.7236 said:

    @Widmo.3186 said:
    I left this game completly some months ago, but I still come from time to time to forums and follow latest 'brilliant' ANet balance updates. Now Im truly amazed that after all those nerfs weaver received, obsidian flesh, sword condis, ToF, everything, still theres someone thats gonna complain how OP this spec is.

    Most of us already know it for quite awhile that theres no point of return for gw2 pvp scene, not only because company doesnt know what therye doing, but also because community is...well, you see what it is. OP this, OP that, im not willing to learn how this spec works and how to counter it, instead im gonna cry until they nerf it to the ground.

    Well, what can I say lads. If we came to a point where ppl cry about fireweaver once again, I feel bad for players that still think about gw2 as a competetive game, even in 1%, instead of a place where you can just troll around and kill time (like playing solitaire). Stay strong and keep believing

    You may think people are only whining about OP this OP that but you forget that's completely normal given that not "everything" was adjusted from the first patch, it's a work in progress and denying it just goes to show that you may as well not come back, your lack of comprehension and attempts to meme isn't working.

    Im not going to come back my friend, there are other MMOs that grant better feeling of PvP atm, but thats another story. I agree, balancing is constant work that must (or at least should) be done, and theres no way everything gonna be fixed in 1 patch. Thats obvious. But you can surely see difference between pointing out things that are overperforming and things that are just used by ppl that know what theyre doing. Otherwise we gonna get another exquisitive mirage-like treatment, to the ground.

    Weaver has just no better options than to be cheap and play piano. And condi is just cheaper version of the cheap, as usual. Lots of its power comes from passive damage, because thats how this spec was designed. Ofc, there used to be a thing called FA, but we all know what happend to it. This spec wont be a warrior that spikes stuns and then damage, wont be a thief/rev that goes in and out. Its a static bunker, because animations are too obvious and concentrated in a small area. So without changing its design, ppl will always complain about this type of gameplay. Its all about whether its usable or nerfed further into oblivion, because gameplay wont change.

    Dont get me wrong, Im not defending fireweaver. I hate this build, I played Weaver (power version) whole PoF, few k hours, but theres no way ppl gonna say one day 'okay, that build is finally fine' - or maybe there is, if its gonna be not usable again.

    PS: Oh, and almost forgot, Im not saying it shouldnt be nerfed. Nono, theres no such thing, Im just saying that we shouldnt listen to ppl that say its on old-Mirage level and should receive its treatment. Ppl that instead of learning how to counter it, gonna blindly stand in firefield and primordial stance, and the amount of likes this guy got just amazes me how biased community is

    Dont mind me, I just randomly spam 35 skill-buttons
    25.02.2020 edit - Nevermind, now I spam only 29 skill-buttons

  • Arheundel.6451Arheundel.6451 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 21, 2021

    I honestly stopped using ele...now it's just a subpar class that shines only in a small circle at low PvP levels, nowhere else it's worth using the class given the effort required...glad I saw this coming a long time ago and prepared myself accordingly..RIP what could have been otherwise a fun and competitive class. The class stopped being fun to use around 5 years ago, it got a tad better when fire weaver was at its peak...I just hate to put more effort than the next guy who's getting results on a different class/spec by smashing buttons off CD that's why I enjoyed pre-nerf Fire weaver.

    If you want high skill requirement to be competitive in PvP...I am all for it....but it must be so for all professions, it doesn't make sense that on one side you have builds a monkey could run at first try and on another you have builds where a degree in quantum physics is required

    " To do dmg on weaver you need to see 30s+ in the future"...that's absurd , why the kitten would I put myself through that when I can play something press F1 and do crazy dmg in AoE range ? or chain blocks/evade for days? or stealth, run and pewpew from distance?.....screw the 30s+ in the future ....

    -A wise man once said- "Fight cheese with cheese or be cheesed in return, mind not those who will accuse you of being a cheese as they like cheese themselves"

  • Kuma.1503Kuma.1503 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 21, 2021

    After fighting several weavers... I honestly don't see what all the fuss is about. After it's nerfs, the cooldown increases, the sustain cuts, the burning reduction, it feels like a fair fight where if I die, it's because I got careless, blew through my cooldowns, let the weaver stunlock me with gale/gale strike -> tailored victory and ate full channel of primordial stance.

    Strong or not, Weaver seems balanced as far as mechanics go. It's got clear weaknesses (kitable, slow to rotate, not great in teamfights, long cooldowns on important cds, cannot handle large bursts of conditions) it's got it's stregths (high damage output, high sustain, multiple evades, can survive +1s and some +2s).

    Good ones are a threat, yes, but that's exactly the kind of build I'd prefer we keep around. I don't mind being outskilled by a player on a build that requires you to outplay me and consider what I'm going to do several seconds in advance. Likewise, if I'm mindlessly mashing and fail to kill the weaver because I blew my burst into twist of fate or stone resonance, I blame my own lack of patience.

    We've reached a point where we can/should consider giving some underperformers a bit of help to diversify the competition. If mirage wasn't gutted, for a start, they'd be able abuse the fact that they have a favorable matchup into fire weaver much more consistently. If condi scourge were in a better spot, perhaps a few side node varients could pressure weavers off node or kill them by matching their barriers, transfering burns or loading them up with more condis than they can handle.

    This is an instance where the best solution to the problem isn't the easy/intuitive answer: Simply nerf what's directly in front of us. Sometimes nerfing overperformers is the right choice. I don't think this is one of those sometimes.

  • People complain about barrier but please, it has 50 sec cooldown and it decay after short time, it is an melee imobile class that you have problem with because it is only good in its 1 think- being an duelist on node. This is more like troll post.

  • @Svez Poizon XD.5268 said:
    People complain about barrier but please, it has 50 sec cooldown and it decay after short time, it is an melee imobile class that you have problem with because it is only good in its 1 think- being an duelist on node. This is more like troll post.

    Barrier allows mistakes to go unpunished. If anything stone resonance needs a cast time so it cant be used wihile cc'd

  • Stallic.2397Stallic.2397 Member ✭✭✭

    If weaver recieves nerfs it would be ideal to hit the barrier production. It's much easier to play Ele with stone resonance and separates the good Ele's from the casual ones.

    But honestly, weaver was supposed to be a bunkier Core Ele. Complaining about its sustain seems silly. In the past few months I've met plenty of weavers who spam through the utilities, then get stun locked and die. Others are pure tanks and need a 2v1 to die.

    Is that unreasonable though? A tank should survive 1v1's. Few weavers find the perfect balance between offense/defense. Not enough of a problem to call it OP.

    Either nerf the barrier or leave it be. Don't touch smothering auras, that affects more than just weaver.

  • @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:
    I've been out of the loop. Can anyone tell me what this supposedly busted Fire Weaver is? I'd like to know, largely for WvW purposes.

    its for 1v1 in pvp, I doubt it applies to wvw since nobody has to every fight anyone 1v1 if they dont feel like it. Making 1v1 builds mostly pointless.

    You'd be surprised how often I 1v1 in WvW. Besides most things that are good solo are good in anything up to large groups.

    Anyway, I did some digging on my own. As far as I can tell, the reason why it is that nobody lists the fire weaver build is because there isn't one build. Weapon choice is largely up to preference, but traits alternates between two different setups. The anti-condition build runs Burning Fire, Smothering Auras, Blinding Ashes, with off-hand focus. It pops in and out of fire over and over again in an attempt to spam as many fire fields as possible, and thus cleanse as many conditions as possible. It hopes to win with counter-burning the opponent to death.

    The second build is the DPS build, which runs Burning Precision, Burning Rage, and Pyromancer's Puissance. This is the one that twirls around while spamming primordial stance, in the hopes that all of the ticking burning will kill the enemy quickly. Regardless of the fire line, the rest of the traits are all the same: defensive weaver line, and arcane with elemental lockdown, evasive arcana, and either arcane precision or renewing stamina. Gear is Celestial with burning duration runes. Sigils are transfer and energy.

    I've been on both ends of Weaver for awhile now, and I can definitely tell you that Stone Resonance isn't as reliable as you'd think. It doesn't give you 5k barrier, it gives you 5k barrier eventually. Berserker and Marauder builds have powered through my health before that happens. To ensure I survive, I need to use my evades and defensive skills to make it so my other defensive skills get enough time to work, which basically means I have to shuck and dive in place for awhile before I'm comfortable enough to do damage. Stuff like Twist of Fate and Earthen Vortex have an aftercast, so lay down an immobilize and a few damage patches, and I'm a dead duck no matter how much I twirl around.

    There's always the tactical side: kiting around barrier is effectively the same thing as doing damage to barrier. If you see that yellow bar and decide to do nothing, then it is the same as doing 5k damage. I've had plenty of players turn tail and run, only to come back 5 seconds later and pummel me while Stone Resonance is on cooldown. To get all the defensive traits, you have to forgo all of the movement traits/utilities, so the Fire Weaver has poor swiftness and a paltry few movement skills.

    "Self awareness is knowing when you're sitting at the throne of ignorance." --Leo G.

  • I see that we got here players, that only play Weaver, because that's the only way you would think that Weaver got enough nerfs and it's fine.
    There's some news for you, everyone got nerfed and the big problem here is your counters got much more nerfed than you, so basically you don't have counters, that's not hard to understand, is it?
    You dont want more nerfs? Ok, lets bring up to your level some confusion or chill profession users then, that would also solve this.

  • coming out of retirement after taking a long break to say this weaver build is not conducive to fun pvp. the amount of barrier is way way way over the top, with very good pressure on top. I've never been amazing at pvp but ive seen enough over the years to spot something that needs the nerf hammer.

  • The patch was a move in the right direction, much better now.
    A nerf overall the duelist builds, so the side node fights can be quicker and get to the teamfight at mid.
    And promotes other builds (not strong enough before) to rise up, so we can have more build diversity across the board, that's how it's done, very good job ArenaNet.

  • Megametzler.5729Megametzler.5729 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Akilles.4320 said:
    The patch was a move in the right direction, much better now.
    A nerf overall the duelist builds, so the side node fights can be quicker and get to the teamfight at mid.
    And promotes other builds (not strong enough before) to rise up, so we can have more build diversity across the board, that's how it's done, very good job ArenaNet.

    Power herald barely got adjustments and burn DH basically none at all.

    However, I agree that the nerfs to sustain are the way to go to enable more build diversity.

    I disagree with the actual nerfs (for example, weaver stays just as spammy as before. The actual active skills got just weaker). But we all know where this poor suggestion came from.

  • TheGreatEdgelord.7048TheGreatEdgelord.7048 Member ✭✭
    edited February 26, 2021

    Christ I've stopped playing GW2 some months ago and i'm really surprised that Fire Weaver, out of all things, is now the please-nerf-everything bandwagon's target. I used to play this build a lot, as it was outright broken (as everything else) before the Febuary 2020 patch, but past that I felt like this build became some sort of mediocre tanker build that hardly can kill anything if not by perfectly timing your attunements and scarce CCs. You're hard to kill thanks to moderate-CD shadowsteps (Lightning Flash, Polaric Leap), a generous amount of evades and sustain (the nerf to stone resonance was mostly a good shave maybe) - which imo is the only thing where fire weavers barely shine above other builds - and that's it. You're, ultimately, a tanker: you're completely inoffensive outside of your pathethic 130 attack range; your only playstyle is to make the exact same combo every 20-30 seconds and try not to die (of boredom too) during this time interval; the only way to get a kill is to hunt for someone dumb - or unfortunate to be stunlocked - enought to stay near you while primordial stance, lava skin and pyro vortex pumps burning. Practically every other sidenoder build - which you're meant to fight - can kitten and/or run from you.

    And on top of that, your only realiable stunbreaker is (controversially) 25s-CD Signet of Air. But this skill, being a signet, allows your non-negative IQ enemies to know exactly when it's up or not - and thus when you can stunbreak or not (this is one of the reasons why some players still prefer long-CD ToF over signet). Apart from being mediocre on most things, this is probrably the only build in this game's history to be condemned to fcing carry a "cc me" plaque so everyone can cripple your already fragile rotations with immense ease.

    To sum up: It's a build that mostly relies on passive AoE CDs to deal damage - which makes this build somewhat effective on low-tier matches, but becomes pointless in and above P1 as playroles become more specialized (this is where LR retires Fire Weaver). In general, it's one of these builds that attempts to be a jack-of-all-trades but ends up being barely regular at most things. And while these sort of builds saw some success before Febuary 2020 - when stats were pretty abudant, most of them - like this one - were dumped into mediocricity and, for some unknow reasoning inside an Anet employee's brain, further nerfed. The fact that this build is seemingly more popular now tells more about how braindead it is than anything else.

    I really hope I have missed some massive buff to Fire Weaver (or a nerf to everything else) that somehow made this build enjoyable and viable - otherwise, this entire thread is just another testament to the painful death of the PvP scenery of this game.