I'd like to see better rune diversity — Guild Wars 2 Forums
Home Fractals/Dungeons/Strike Missions/Raids

I'd like to see better rune diversity

Firebeard.1746Firebeard.1746 Member ✭✭✭✭

Particularly for power builds. Nothing competes well with Scholar. In fact I'm not even sure scholar would lose out to say eagle or Ogre if you didn't have 100% uptime on the damage bonus: Ogre's doesn't give a good bonus outside the 4% bonus and Eagle's lacks power - power is still way more valuable than precision in most cases. Eagle's is very situational as it's possible to overcap crit depending on the gear setup (some power builds already feature some assasin's making the precision less valuable). There's not really anything else that gives the huge bonuses that scholar does at tier 6 and always gives probably the best stats for power dps - power and ferocity.

Comments

  • XenoSpyro.1780XenoSpyro.1780 Member ✭✭✭
    edited February 15, 2021

    That's all Scholar is, a raw damage boost. Fireworks with my traits gives me 100% vigor uptime. 5% damage doesn't mean anything if you're lying on the ground.

    @Firebeard.1746 said:
    Eagle's lacks power

    And its incredibly affordable by comparison. For the price its a great damage boost. It's almost like not everything is equal and everything has a place.

  • Armen.1483Armen.1483 Member ✭✭✭

    Thief runes work well for raids, just gotta gear well for it. Works pretty well on berserkers.

  • Nephalem.8921Nephalem.8921 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Firebeard.1746 said:
    Particularly for power builds. Nothing competes well with Scholar. In fact I'm not even sure scholar would lose out to say eagle or Ogre if you didn't have 100% uptime on the damage bonus: Ogre's doesn't give a good bonus outside the 4% bonus and Eagle's lacks power - power is still way more valuable than precision in most cases. Eagle's is very situational as it's possible to overcap crit depending on the gear setup (some power builds already feature some assasin's making the precision less valuable). There's not really anything else that gives the huge bonuses that scholar does at tier 6 and always gives probably the best stats for power dps - power and ferocity.

    Scholar are not meta for all classes. Berserker uses thief, chrono eagle without spotter, weaver flame legion and a couple more builds exist aswell. Precision > power below critcap. you would never use assassins if this wouldnt be the case.
    Strength runes are also very good in solo situations. dont underestimate the might duration.

  • Infusion.7149Infusion.7149 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 16, 2021

    @XenoSpyro.1780 said:
    That's all Scholar is, a raw damage boost. Fireworks with my traits gives me 100% vigor uptime. 5% damage doesn't mean anything if you're lying on the ground.

    The damage bonus from scholar is 15% from ferocity if you are crit capped (100% crit chance) even without the +5% > 90% health bonus.


    All that needs to happen is lowered >90% health damage bonus on scholar's. It was shaved from 10% but then 125 ferocity was added to it (which is 8.3% if at crit cap) which made zero sense to me.

    The only time you would not use scholar is if you can use thief runes. It isn't practical in fractals when you have AR to supplement precision. Likewise eagle runes have only 50% uptime on the 10% bonus unless it's trash mobs.

    Some of the prevalent power runes that might have seen use if the bonuses were more even:

    • Spellbreaker (175 power, flat 7% vs boonless and also 100 precision) --- when you run power chronos boons are more or less nonexistent unless they are reapplied constantly
    • Eagle (175 precision, 225 ferocity = 15% crit, 10% damage bonus vs <50% health)
    • Golemancer (300 ferocity , 100 precision ... no damage bonus) --- this should not be improved as it is a dungeon rune I think
    • Mesmer (175 power, 100 precision, 10% damage bonus vs dazed)
    • Thief (300 precision, 100 condition damage, 10% flanking bonus) --- this only became relevant after the extra 125 precision was added as 6th bonus
    • Flame legion (175 power, burning modifier relevant for guardians since it's more or less 7% damage bonus always)
    • Strength (175 power, 5% damage bonus under might) --- this could be a little more generous given it has no ferocity bonus
    • Ogre (175 power, 100 ferocity = ~6.7% crit , 4% flat damage bonus without conditional)
    • Infiltration (175 power, 100 precision, 10% damage bonus vs <50% health) --- similar to eagle rune
    • Pack (175 power, 125 precision , but lack of damage bonus makes it iffy for group scenarios and fractals)
    • Deadeye (175 power, 100 ferocity and a semi-useless 6th bonus)
    • Dragonhunter (175 ferocity, 100 power)
    • Rage (175 ferocity, 5% damage bonus) --- needs help
    • Divinity , for reference is +78 to all stats and a flat 10% health bonus (of those stats only three matter: power , precision, and ferocity for a total of 234 total stats added)

    For example on power soulbeast if you punch it through the snowcrows calculator with spotter+banner+ assassin's presence (no empower allies), where they don't mention quickness or 25 vulnerability:

    24.5K scholar with health bonus
    23.5K eagle rune 50% uptime
    23.4K thief rune (flanking)
    23.4K scholar without health bonus
    22.7K golemancer rune or mesmer rune with 20% daze uptime

    It's a similar scenario if you run it through discretize's calculator with 150AR assuming standard buffs , slaying potion , force + impact sigils using marksmanship instead of skirmishing:

    ~3.67K Scholar with active bonus (effective power 37,605)
    ~3.64K Spellbreaker (effective power 37,364)
    ~3.63K Eagle , only versus <50% targets (effective power ~37,261)
    ~3.62K Thief (effective power 37,116)
    ~3.55K Flame Legion (effective power ~36,438)
    ~3.53K Ogre (effective power ~36,230)
    ~3.5K Scholar without active bonus (effective power ~35,815)
    ~3.5K Strength (effective power ~35,757)
    ~3.42K Pack (effective power ~35,134)

    With the soulbeast raid build (skirmishing variant) in discretize:

    ~3.56K Scholar with bonus (effective power ~36,476)
    ~3.45K spellbreaker / Flame Legion
    ~3.43K Ogre
    ~3.4K Eagle
    ~3.39K Scholar without bonus (effective power ~34,739)
    ~3.39K Strength
    ~3.2K Pack

    Put Berserker through discretize calculator with the minimum 150AR (ideally you want more for warriors that need precision):

    Thief: 4.93K , assuming you can flank
    Eagle with bonus: 4.92K , only versus <50% targets
    Scholar with bonus: 4.92K
    Spellbreaker: 4.87K
    Flame Legion: 4.77K
    Ogre: ~4.74K
    Scholar without bonus: ~4.69K
    Strength: ~4.68K
    Pack: ~4.6K

    Power DH's discretize results:

    Scholar with bonus: 3.68K
    Spellbreaker: 3.6K
    Eagle: 3.59K
    Thief: 3.54K
    Flame Legion: 3.53K , not factoring in burn duration
    Ogre: 3.53K
    Scholar without bonus: 3.5K
    Strength: ~3.47K
    Pack: ~3.37K
    Exuberance: ~3.27K

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 16, 2021

    What are all these changes supposed to achieve?

    There will nearly always be a "best to use" rune for a specific purpose. In case of power damage while crit capped it's scholar for most classes even with some benefits versus some select other runes. There are specific cases where certain runes are better than scholar, most often related to achieving the crit cap, in other cases this is achieved via assassins gear over berserker.

    Nerf scholar and all that will happen is that a different rune will take its place as "best to use for power damage when crit capped". It's nearly impossible to achieve perfect balance to make multiple runes equally desirable unless you give them the exact same stats and make the 6 piece bonus irrelevant in all scenarios (because perfectly balancing this bonus would be impossible).

    Instead of nerfing scholar they should rather add 1 or 2 more rune sets which have the same baseline stats bonuses (Power and Ferocity) which would not achieve a diversion from having a best in slot rune, but would open up some variety for players who want non perfect alternatives (or even adequate alternatives for not <90% hitpoints).

    Then there is the issue of reaching the crit cap. If runes with precision were buffed, you eventually phase out assassins gear, one of the few gear combinations which some classes use next to berserker. Which would then again lead to complaints about lack of stat diversity on gear.

    Perfect balance is not needed for runes and sigils though imo. Why? Because PvE is not the only game mode in this game and not every rune/sigil has to be made desirable for PvE. We already have imperfect balance for PvE which is fine.

  • Nephalem.8921Nephalem.8921 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Nice effort but you made quite a lot of errors. In fact the slb build without scholar has higher effective power than the scholar one. Scholar takes skirmishing while thief rune build takes marksmanship. Obviously using a rune with precision does nothing on an already critcapped build.
    15% critical dmg are NOT 15% dmg. the 8.3 critdamage from 6th bonus translate to ~4% or less total damage. Closer to 3% for high ferocity builds. There will always be one best offensive rune. The difference between them is way smaller than you think. Ferocity is the weakest stat of the 3 offensive power ones. Other runes are stronger as soon as a build needs a lot of precision. Thief runes 6th bonus is far stronger than scholars bonus. Its just the random condition dmg that makes them not best in slot for everyone.
    Scholar runes were uncontested meta years ago with the 10% dmg mod while above 90% health. there are a lot of competetive options now and scholar is not in all cases optimal. Fractals are an outlier because you just fix low critchance with more ar instead of using another rune with precision.
    Also even on critcapped builds flame legion pulls ahead for fresh air weaver and you always have to factor in the 5% scholar bonus. burning will have a 100% uptime, your health threshold wont.
    In fact strength 6th bonus was 7% at first but it got nerfed because it was too strong compared to other runes.

  • Infusion.7149Infusion.7149 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 17, 2021

    @Nephalem.8921 said:

    Nice effort but you made quite a lot of errors. In fact the slb build without scholar has higher effective power than the scholar one. Scholar takes skirmishing while thief rune build takes marksmanship. Obviously using a rune with precision does nothing on an already critcapped build.
    15% critical dmg are NOT 15% dmg. the 8.3 critdamage from 6th bonus translate to ~4% or less total damage. Closer to 3% for high ferocity builds. There will always be one best offensive rune. The difference between them is way smaller than you think. Ferocity is the weakest stat of the 3 offensive power ones. Other runes are stronger as soon as a build needs a lot of precision. Thief runes 6th bonus is far stronger than scholars bonus. Its just the random condition dmg that makes them not best in slot for everyone.
    Scholar runes were uncontested meta years ago with the 10% dmg mod while above 90% health. there are a lot of competetive options now and scholar is not in all cases optimal. Fractals are an outlier because you just fix low critchance with more ar instead of using another rune with precision.
    Also even on critcapped builds flame legion pulls ahead for fresh air weaver and you always have to factor in the 5% scholar bonus. burning will have a 100% uptime, your health threshold wont.
    In fact strength 6th bonus was 7% at first but it got nerfed because it was too strong compared to other runes.

    If I made "a lot of errors" feel free to replicate it. There's quite a bit of conjecture here rather than hard numbers.

    https://old.discretize.eu/
    https://snowcrows.com/gearoptimizer/

    The old scholar rune without the 10% health bonus is the same as deadeye rune basically or ogre with 10% conditional instead of 4% flat bonus with ~500dps on top from the rock dog. The 8.3% from ferocity is tacked on via distributive law of mathematics so the lower your scholar uptime is the better the current iteration is. All damage multipliers compound off it. You'd see lower damage on just about every build while the damage with the bonus was a bit higher (to the tune of 1% for Power DH , closer to 2% for Power BS and Soulbeast).

    Strength runes were not reworked in the 2018 rune patch, they were reverted from 7% to 5% after a brief time of several months at 7% bonus in 2014.

    Right now in WvW you're more likely to see scholar rune on a power damage character than any other rune. So this idea that it isn't used in WvW is false. The only time it isn't used is if people are trying to build in toughness then durability, trooper , or monk runes for supports are used. That's not counting fringe tactics such as speed runes on everyone with swiftness or a full squad using golemancer runes.

    For a while "primarily fire" staff weavers that used Pyromancer's Puissance ran the Strength rune but after the changes to the trait to benefit PvE it is highly unlikely to re-emerge.

  • Firebeard.1746Firebeard.1746 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I, in no way want Scholar's nerfed, I just want there to be more options, especially for people with trust issues XD. All of the situations mentioned here are not status quo, most of the time, on a zerker's set, you want Scholar, I'm fine that there's edge cases, but it's not like there's a real choice, if you're being optimal, for most power builds, the option is basically scholar's.

  • Firebeard.1746Firebeard.1746 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 18, 2021

    @Nephalem.8921 said:

    Nice effort but you made quite a lot of errors. In fact the slb build without scholar has higher effective power than the scholar one. Scholar takes skirmishing while thief rune build takes marksmanship. Obviously using a rune with precision does nothing on an already critcapped build.
    15% critical dmg are NOT 15% dmg. the 8.3 critdamage from 6th bonus translate to ~4% or less total damage. Closer to 3% for high ferocity builds. There will always be one best offensive rune. The difference between them is way smaller than you think. Ferocity is the weakest stat of the 3 offensive power ones. Other runes are stronger as soon as a build needs a lot of precision. Thief runes 6th bonus is far stronger than scholars bonus. Its just the random condition dmg that makes them not best in slot for everyone.
    Scholar runes were uncontested meta years ago with the 10% dmg mod while above 90% health. there are a lot of competetive options now and scholar is not in all cases optimal. Fractals are an outlier because you just fix low critchance with more ar instead of using another rune with precision.
    Also even on critcapped builds flame legion pulls ahead for fresh air weaver and you always have to factor in the 5% scholar bonus. burning will have a 100% uptime, your health threshold wont.
    In fact strength 6th bonus was 7% at first but it got nerfed because it was too strong compared to other runes.

    Ferocity is not WEAKER, 15 ferocity = 1% crit damage. Past I think 75% crit you'd be even with precision which is 22-21 for 1%. It gets even more cheap per point of damage the higher your precision goes/if you have fury uptime. Also, it's uncapped. Crit caps. They're both necessary but I don't think your reasoning is correct. These numbers are estimates, but the idea holds, if you math it out, ferocity easily starts beating precision at certain breakpoints. Granted, the higher one goes, the more the valuable the other becomes. But there's also a boon (fury) that increases crit, no gear required, making ferocity even more attractive.

  • Katary.7096Katary.7096 Member ✭✭✭

    @Firebeard.1746 said:
    I, in no way want Scholar's nerfed, I just want there to be more options, especially for people with trust issues XD. All of the situations mentioned here are not status quo, most of the time, on a zerker's set, you want Scholar, I'm fine that there's edge cases, but it's not like there's a real choice, if you're being optimal, for most power builds, the option is basically scholar's.

    Can you elaborate on how these alternatives to scholar runes should function? Do you want to see more rune sets with power and ferocity as well as some sort of conditional damage modifier? Should runes with power and precision or precision and ferocity simply give more of those stats? Is the profession you are playing supposed to influence which runes are among the more optimal choices?

  • Nephalem.8921Nephalem.8921 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Firebeard.1746 said:

    @Nephalem.8921 said:

    Nice effort but you made quite a lot of errors. In fact the slb build without scholar has higher effective power than the scholar one. Scholar takes skirmishing while thief rune build takes marksmanship. Obviously using a rune with precision does nothing on an already critcapped build.
    15% critical dmg are NOT 15% dmg. the 8.3 critdamage from 6th bonus translate to ~4% or less total damage. Closer to 3% for high ferocity builds. There will always be one best offensive rune. The difference between them is way smaller than you think. Ferocity is the weakest stat of the 3 offensive power ones. Other runes are stronger as soon as a build needs a lot of precision. Thief runes 6th bonus is far stronger than scholars bonus. Its just the random condition dmg that makes them not best in slot for everyone.
    Scholar runes were uncontested meta years ago with the 10% dmg mod while above 90% health. there are a lot of competetive options now and scholar is not in all cases optimal. Fractals are an outlier because you just fix low critchance with more ar instead of using another rune with precision.
    Also even on critcapped builds flame legion pulls ahead for fresh air weaver and you always have to factor in the 5% scholar bonus. burning will have a 100% uptime, your health threshold wont.
    In fact strength 6th bonus was 7% at first but it got nerfed because it was too strong compared to other runes.

    Ferocity is not WEAKER, 15 ferocity = 1% crit damage. Past I think 75% crit you'd be even with precision which is 22-21 for 1%. It gets even more cheap per point of damage the higher your precision goes/if you have fury uptime. Also, it's uncapped. Crit caps. They're both necessary but I don't think your reasoning is correct. These numbers are estimates, but the idea holds, if you math it out, ferocity easily starts beating precision at certain breakpoints. Granted, the higher one goes, the more the valuable the other becomes. But there's also a boon (fury) that increases crit, no gear required, making ferocity even more attractive.

    I just calculated it for holo which has low ferocity. At an artificial 99% crit the statweight is precision > power > ferocity.
    At 100% its power > ferocity. The difference is a lot bigger for high ferocity builds aswell.
    You need low ferocity or close to unobtainable power levels to reach the ferocity > power situation. Bloodlust + writs + ea would bring you there but thats not very realistic. Even then the difference would be extremely small and ap would immediately swing it in another direction. And i made this for holo which gets only 350 ferocity from traits.

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 18, 2021

    @Firebeard.1746 said:
    I, in no way want Scholar's nerfed, I just want there to be more options, especially for people with trust issues XD. All of the situations mentioned here are not status quo, most of the time, on a zerker's set, you want Scholar, I'm fine that there's edge cases, but it's not like there's a real choice, if you're being optimal, for most power builds, the option is basically scholar's.

    It does not matter if you want scholar nerfed or other runes "buffed" or changed or whatever.
    The fact will remain that unless runes/sigils are absolutely identical in their benefit to a specific role, there will not be balance. Sure, the differences can be made smaller, but perfect balance is near impossible.

    If you are being optimal, you will always gravitate to 1 rune set for a specific task. If it is not scholar, it will be a different rune set. The current situation which we have is close to what I described: we have almost as good rune sets, some even better than scholar in specific situations for specific classes, but in most cases scholar is on top because it gives the most benefit (if players are above 90% life which somehow keeps getting forgotten here and which I can guarantee many will not be consistently outside of golem benchmarks). That is without just copy pasting the scholar stat bonuses and altering the 6 piece bonus a bit.

    So again, besides introducing a bloat of near identical rune sets, how exactly is this meaningful choice supposed to get introduced?

    You have options to scholar right now. You simply dislike the trade-off amount which you have to suffer.

  • lare.5129lare.5129 Member ✭✭✭✭

    that we point think and change obsolete runes?
    make better preparation for new runes from EoD dungions.

    want solid balance ? - play chess.

  • lare.5129lare.5129 Member ✭✭✭✭

    and play condi.

    want solid balance ? - play chess.

  • Infusion.7149Infusion.7149 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 18, 2021

    Because people keep reiterating tired points without numbers, here's what you get with discretize's calculator set to 0AR and no infinite potion (i.e. no fractal potion contributions):
    Spotter , banner, and sigil of force+impact are used with fruitcake / superior sharpening stone and bane signet is unchecked because not every group is running DH. Starting with all specs of warrior because it's a special case where Thief rune is the defacto standard outside of fractals. Also by using Ogre rune and normalizing for the bonus scholar rune used to have we can compare versus the pre-change scholar rune.

    Power BS in berserk mode , 0AR aka raid scenario with spotter not bane signet , 3% on impact sigil

    Thief 3582
    Old Scholar (pre-2018) 3568
    Eagle 3507
    Scholar w/ bonus 3507
    Spellbreaker 3466
    Flame Legion 3386
    Ogre 3373
    Eagle , 50% uptime 3348
    Scholar w/o bonus 3340
    Strength 3323
    Pack 3257
    Old Scholar w/o bonus (pre-2018) 3243

    Power BS not in berserk mode,

    Thief Rune 2679
    Old Scholar (pre-2018) 2664
    Eagle 2622
    Scholar w/ bonus 2622
    Spellbreaker 2590
    Flame Legion 2526
    Ogre 2519
    Eagle , 50% uptime 2503
    Scholar w/o bonus 2497
    Strength 2479
    Pack 2435
    Old Scholar w/o bonus (pre-2018) 2422

    Spellbreaker (magebane+ Pure Strike)

    Thief 3230
    Old Scholar (pre-2018) 3215
    Eagle 3169
    Scholar w/ bonus 3169
    Spellbreaker 3123
    Flame Legion 3046
    Ogre 3040
    Eagle, 50% uptime 3025
    Scholar w/o bonus 3018
    Strength 2990
    Pack 2937
    Old Scholar w/o bonus (pre-2018) 2933

    Core warrior (leg specialist)

    Thief 2757
    Old Scholar (pre-2018) 2743
    Eagle 2703
    Scholar w/ bonus 2703
    Spellbreaker 2665
    Flame Legion 2600
    Ogre 2594
    Eagle , 50% uptime 2580
    Scholar w/o bonus 2575
    Strength 2551
    Pack 2506
    Old Scholar w/o bonus (pre-2018) 2494

    Soulbeast - marksmanship

    Old Scholar (pre-2018) 2630
    Thief 2629
    Scholar 2586
    Eagle 2585
    Spellbreaker 2564
    Ogre 2487
    Eagle, 50% uptime 2568
    Scholar w/o bonus 2463
    Strength 2450
    Pack 2412
    Old Scholar w/o bonus (pre-2018) 2391

    Soulbeast - skirmishing

    Old Scholar (pre-2018) 2705
    Scholar w/ bonus 2655
    Spellbreaker 2572
    Ogre 2557
    Eagle 2542
    Thief 2533
    Scholar w/o bonus 2528
    Strength 2522
    Old Scholar w/o bonus (pre-2018) 2459
    Eagle, 50% uptime 2427
    Pack 2405
    Exuberance 2346

    Power DH

    Old Scholar (pre-2018) 2627
    Scholar w/ bonus 2596
    Eagle 2596
    Thief 2575
    Spellbreaker 2550
    Flame Legion 2484
    Ogre 2484
    Eagle, 50% uptime 2478
    Scholar w/o bonus 2472
    Strength 2438
    Pack 2398
    Old Scholar w/o bonus (pre-2018) 2388
    Exuberance 2300

    Power Chrono - no danger time

    Old Scholar (pre-2018) 2073
    Thief 2002
    Scholar w/ bonus 1960
    Eagle 1960
    Spellbreaker 1933
    Flame Legion 1875
    Ogre 1875
    Eagle, 50% uptime 1871
    Scholar w/o bonus 1867
    Strength 1840
    Pack 1820
    Old Scholar w/o bonus (pre-2018) 1803

    Power Chrono - with danger time

    Old Scholar (pre-2018) 2388
    Scholar w/ bonus 2360
    Spellbreaker 2321
    Eagle 2310
    Thief 2275
    Flame Legion 2258
    Ogre 2258
    Eagle, 50% uptime 2205
    Scholar w/o bonus 2248
    Strength 2215
    Old Scholar w/o bonus (pre-2018) 2171
    Pack 2170

    Power weaver - Bolt to the Heart w/ Superior Elements

    Old Scholar (pre-2018) 2647
    Scholar w/ bonus 2612
    Eagle 2555
    Spellbreaker 2552
    Thief 2528
    Flame Legion 2506
    Ogre 2503
    Eagle, 50% uptime 2439
    Scholar w/o bonus 2487
    Strength 2459
    Old Scholar w/o bonus (pre-2018) 2407
    Pack 2387
    Exuberance 2327

    Power tempest - fresh air , signet of fire equipped

    Old Scholar (pre-2018) 1825
    Thief 1813
    Scholar with accuracy sigil 1813
    Scholar 1795
    Eagle 1795
    Spellbreaker 1782
    Ogre with accuracy sigil 1742
    Ogre 1725
    Strength with accuracy sigil 1716
    Strength 1699
    Pack 1677
    Old Scholar w/o bonus (pre-2018) 1658
    Exuberance 1600

    There's no need to powercreep everything else when Scholar rune bonus can simply be toned down. Even without the health bonus it is high performing and within margin to Ogre rune (which is basically scholar rune +4% before the 2018 rebalance) and unlike other runes, it also has an effect on WvW. You can't flank or remove every boon in WvW all the time but with scrappers and minstrel firebrands in your squad you can definitely maintain high uptime on scholar's.

    For holosmith, if you're in any form of PVE party at all (this is the fractal/raid/strike forum, right?) with a banner from warriors there will never be a scenario where you want precision. I don't know where that notion came about. Berserker's in full ascended is 50.76% crit chance, +20% from fury, +15% from High caliber, +4.76% from banner (100 precision / 21 precision per %), +10% from Hematic Focus vs bleeding (which you generate even if nobody else does), is already 100% crit chance. Don't need a calculator to optimize that when there's absolutely no need for it. The same holds true for power daredevil running signet of agility (180 precision).

    Also, unless your revenant is falling asleep and/or running Swift Termination over Dance of Death the scholar uptime will naturally be high. Boon herald runs roiling mists which makes fury count for 40% crit chance , meaning you are at 90% crit chance while running full berserker's. Unlike renegade which loses a chunk of crit chance while dodging, that also applies to WvW.

    This is unlike power reaper where you could argue when it isn't in shroud then you need precision. However, if you're playing power reaper you're already putting yourself at a severe disadvantage from the beginning and all your heal classes will hate you because of how shroud works.

    The net effect of shaving down scholar rune would be also shaving down any large DPS differences between DPS classes that use it (i.e. everything not a warrior).

  • Firebeard.1746Firebeard.1746 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Firebeard.1746 said:
    I, in no way want Scholar's nerfed, I just want there to be more options, especially for people with trust issues XD. All of the situations mentioned here are not status quo, most of the time, on a zerker's set, you want Scholar, I'm fine that there's edge cases, but it's not like there's a real choice, if you're being optimal, for most power builds, the option is basically scholar's.

    It does not matter if you want scholar nerfed or other runes "buffed" or changed or whatever.
    The fact will remain that unless runes/sigils are absolutely identical in their benefit to a specific role, there will not be balance. Sure, the differences can be made smaller, but perfect balance is near impossible.

    If you are being optimal, you will always gravitate to 1 rune set for a specific task. If it is not scholar, it will be a different rune set. The current situation which we have is close to what I described: we have almost as good rune sets, some even better than scholar in specific situations for specific classes, but in most cases scholar is on top because it gives the most benefit (if players are above 90% life which somehow keeps getting forgotten here and which I can guarantee many will not be consistently outside of golem benchmarks). That is without just copy pasting the scholar stat bonuses and altering the 6 piece bonus a bit.

    So again, besides introducing a bloat of near identical rune sets, how exactly is this meaningful choice supposed to get introduced?

    You have options to scholar right now. You simply dislike the trade-off amount which you have to suffer.

    My premise was not to make them the same, I said "nothing competes well with Scholar's"

    I understand this will always be the case, but the stat/damage differences are just too big rn imo.

  • Firebeard.1746Firebeard.1746 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 18, 2021

    @Infusion.7149 said:
    Because people keep reiterating tired points without numbers, here's what you get with discretize's calculator set to 0AR and no infinite potion (i.e. no fractal potion contributions):
    Spotter , banner, and sigil of force+impact are used with fruitcake / superior sharpening stone and bane signet is unchecked because not every group is running DH. Starting with all specs of warrior because it's a special case where Thief rune is the defacto standard outside of fractals. Also by using Ogre rune and normalizing for the bonus scholar rune used to have we can compare versus the pre-change scholar rune.

    Power BS in berserk mode , 0AR aka raid scenario with spotter not bane signet , 3% on impact sigil

    Thief 3582
    Old Scholar (pre-2018) 3568
    Eagle 3507
    Scholar w/ bonus 3507
    Spellbreaker 3466
    Flame Legion 3386
    Ogre 3373
    Eagle , 50% uptime 3348
    Scholar w/o bonus 3340
    Strength 3323
    Pack 3257
    Old Scholar w/o bonus (pre-2018) 3243

    Power BS not in berserk mode,

    Thief Rune 2679
    Old Scholar (pre-2018) 2664
    Eagle 2622
    Scholar w/ bonus 2622
    Spellbreaker 2590
    Flame Legion 2526
    Ogre 2519
    Eagle , 50% uptime 2503
    Scholar w/o bonus 2497
    Strength 2479
    Pack 2435
    Old Scholar w/o bonus (pre-2018) 2422

    Spellbreaker (magebane+ Pure Strike)

    Thief 3230
    Old Scholar (pre-2018) 3215
    Eagle 3169
    Scholar w/ bonus 3169
    Spellbreaker 3123
    Flame Legion 3046
    Ogre 3040
    Eagle, 50% uptime 3025
    Scholar w/o bonus 3018
    Strength 2990
    Pack 2937
    Old Scholar w/o bonus (pre-2018) 2933

    Core warrior (leg specialist)

    Thief 2757
    Old Scholar (pre-2018) 2743
    Eagle 2703
    Scholar w/ bonus 2703
    Spellbreaker 2665
    Flame Legion 2600
    Ogre 2594
    Eagle , 50% uptime 2580
    Scholar w/o bonus 2575
    Strength 2551
    Pack 2506
    Old Scholar w/o bonus (pre-2018) 2494

    Soulbeast - marksmanship

    Old Scholar (pre-2018) 2630
    Thief 2629
    Scholar 2586
    Eagle 2585
    Spellbreaker 2564
    Ogre 2487
    Eagle, 50% uptime 2568
    Scholar w/o bonus 2463
    Strength 2450
    Pack 2412
    Old Scholar w/o bonus (pre-2018) 2391

    Soulbeast - skirmishing

    Old Scholar (pre-2018) 2705
    Scholar w/ bonus 2655
    Spellbreaker 2572
    Ogre 2557
    Eagle 2542
    Thief 2533
    Scholar w/o bonus 2528
    Strength 2522
    Old Scholar w/o bonus (pre-2018) 2459
    Eagle, 50% uptime 2427
    Pack 2405
    Exuberance 2346

    Power DH

    Old Scholar (pre-2018) 2627
    Scholar w/ bonus 2596
    Eagle 2596
    Thief 2575
    Spellbreaker 2550
    Flame Legion 2484
    Ogre 2484
    Eagle, 50% uptime 2478
    Scholar w/o bonus 2472
    Strength 2438
    Pack 2398
    Old Scholar w/o bonus (pre-2018) 2388
    Exuberance 2300

    Power Chrono - no danger time

    Old Scholar (pre-2018) 2073
    Thief 2002
    Scholar w/ bonus 1960
    Eagle 1960
    Spellbreaker 1933
    Flame Legion 1875
    Ogre 1875
    Eagle, 50% uptime 1871
    Scholar w/o bonus 1867
    Strength 1840
    Pack 1820
    Old Scholar w/o bonus (pre-2018) 1803

    Power Chrono - with danger time

    Old Scholar (pre-2018) 2388
    Scholar w/ bonus 2360
    Spellbreaker 2321
    Eagle 2310
    Thief 2275
    Flame Legion 2258
    Ogre 2258
    Eagle, 50% uptime 2205
    Scholar w/o bonus 2248
    Strength 2215
    Old Scholar w/o bonus (pre-2018) 2171
    Pack 2170

    Power weaver - Bolt to the Heart w/ Superior Elements

    Old Scholar (pre-2018) 2647
    Scholar w/ bonus 2612
    Eagle 2555
    Spellbreaker 2552
    Thief 2528
    Flame Legion 2506
    Ogre 2503
    Eagle, 50% uptime 2439
    Scholar w/o bonus 2487
    Strength 2459
    Old Scholar w/o bonus (pre-2018) 2407
    Pack 2387
    Exuberance 2327

    Power tempest - fresh air , signet of fire equipped

    Old Scholar (pre-2018) 1825
    Thief 1813
    Scholar with accuracy sigil 1813
    Scholar 1795
    Eagle 1795
    Spellbreaker 1782
    Ogre with accuracy sigil 1742
    Ogre 1725
    Strength with accuracy sigil 1716
    Strength 1699
    Pack 1677
    Old Scholar w/o bonus (pre-2018) 1658
    Exuberance 1600

    There's no need to powercreep everything else when Scholar rune bonus can simply be toned down. Even without the health bonus it is high performing and within margin to Ogre rune (which is basically scholar rune +4% before the 2018 rebalance) and unlike other runes, it also has an effect on WvW. You can't flank or remove every boon in WvW all the time but with scrappers and minstrel firebrands in your squad you can definitely maintain high uptime on scholar's.

    For holosmith, if you're in any form of PVE party at all (this is the fractal/raid/strike forum, right?) with a banner from warriors there will never be a scenario where you want precision. I don't know where that notion came about. Berserker's in full ascended is 50.76% crit chance, +20% from fury, +15% from High caliber, +4.76% from banner (100 precision / 21 precision per %), +10% from Hematic Focus vs bleeding (which you generate even if nobody else does), is already 100% crit chance. Don't need a calculator to optimize that when there's absolutely no need for it. The same holds true for power daredevil running signet of agility (180 precision).

    Also, unless your revenant is falling asleep and/or running Swift Termination over Dance of Death the scholar uptime will naturally be high. Boon herald runs roiling mists which makes fury count for 40% crit chance , meaning you are at 90% crit chance while running full berserker's. Unlike renegade which loses a chunk of crit chance while dodging, that also applies to WvW.

    This is unlike power reaper where you could argue when it isn't in shroud then you need precision. However, if you're playing power reaper you're already putting yourself at a severe disadvantage from the beginning and all your heal classes will hate you because of how shroud works.

    The net effect of shaving down scholar rune would be also shaving down any large DPS differences between DPS classes that use it (i.e. everything not a warrior).

    You tell people barely clearing content that they're doing worse now because of your sensibilities. The high-end PVE in this game is hard enough without nerfing some of the meta tools for it. If they are nerfing scholar's they need to nerf every boss/encounter in the game accordingly.

    Also, just as a bit of clarification: The thief numbers are assuming 100% flanking uptime, correct? That bonus, if halved to match scholar doesn't compete. Just pointing it out to the person trying to tell me that precision is stronger. It's not. The popular precision runes just have good 6-tier bonuses.

  • Infusion.7149Infusion.7149 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 19, 2021

    @Firebeard.1746 said:
    You tell people barely clearing content that they're doing worse now because of your sensibilities. The high-end PVE in this game is hard enough without nerfing some of the meta tools for it. If they are nerfing scholar's they need to nerf every boss/encounter in the game accordingly.

    Also, just as a bit of clarification: The thief numbers are assuming 100% flanking uptime, correct? That bonus, if halved to match scholar doesn't compete. Just pointing it out to the person trying to tell me that precision is stronger. It's not. The popular precision runes just have good 6-tier bonuses.

    If you want more rune diversity, either you would need to buff everything or nerf scholar rune bonus. The scholar rune without bonus is competitive enough already after the 2018 rebalance, as shown above. Even if the bonus were 2 or 3% it would be high performing.

    The thief rune bonus is assumed 100% uptime on both discretize and snowcrows. Even with 0% uptime if you are far from crit cap of 100% crit chance it is decent enough compared to other options. With a 50% uptime it is about on par with spellbreaker runes in most cases.

    There's a 9% or so spread between the non-meta options and Scholar , which is going to be larger than any shave to Scholar rune bonus could possibly achieve. There does not need to be any adjustment to raid bosses or encounters because they are mostly designed before Scholar had powercreep in the 2018 rune rebalance which boosted the base ferocity stat. This in turn means if scholar uptime is extremely low or non-existent then the damage increased roughly 3% for all groups running the rune. Average benchmarks for all classes have also generally gone up except for staff weavers (due to meteor shower nerf) and ascended food was added. Plus some of the hardest ones are typically condi comps anyway (for example Twin Largos , Soulless Horror , Sunqua Peak). Dragon Response Missions and Strikes are definitely not balanced with optimized comps running scholar runes as baseline ; fractals don't really have a timer at all.

  • Hannelore.8153Hannelore.8153 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 19, 2021

    I find that Eagle, Ogre, Pack, Scholar and Strength, are all heavily used in Power-based builds. Pack runes are especially common as they allow certain boons permanent uptime without going all-in on Boon Duration.

    Keep in mind "raid" comps are only used in Strike Missions, raids, sometimes in Fractals if its a high-end effort. The reason being is that your party is less reliable in 5man content, simply due to lack of sheer numbers, you need to bring a few players completely overloaded with specific builds to obtain the same results as a 10man comp, and lack of understanding of this skews the community viewpoints.

    Non-Scholar builds are heavily used in areas where players need to rely on themselves more and their party less. And I think that's what most alternative builds in the game are for and they're in a pretty good place for that right now.

    Also, some classes have a harder time staying at max health due to fewer active defenses.

    Confusing math, metrics and "what-ifs" for real-world situations is the mistake that game developers make that turns games into trash. I'd recommend the community not make the same mistake, because a war of numbers isn't anywhere close to the real thing.

    Hannah | Daisuki[SUKI] Founder, Ehmry Bay, NA | 24 charas, 18k hours, 29k AP | ♀♥♀
    No need to be best, only good and kind.

  • Nephalem.8921Nephalem.8921 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 19, 2021

    @Firebeard.1746 said:
    You tell people barely clearing content that they're doing worse now because of your sensibilities. The high-end PVE in this game is hard enough without nerfing some of the meta tools for it. If they are nerfing scholar's they need to nerf every boss/encounter in the game accordingly.

    Also, just as a bit of clarification: The thief numbers are assuming 100% flanking uptime, correct? That bonus, if halved to match scholar doesn't compete. Just pointing it out to the person trying to tell me that precision is stronger. It's not. The popular precision runes just have good 6-tier bonuses.

    Is that based on your feelings or math? I used a simple excel sheet for that. For Holo with metabuild i got 0.029% increase in damage for 1 point of precision at an artificial 99%. Currently you critcap without it but just one nerfed trait would put it in that area. Crit at 50% had a 0.4% gain while fero was extremely weak with 0.018%
    Power had like 0.0275% and ferocity 0.0252%.
    Fero > precision is possible but not with meta builds. You would need very low base ferocity. All builds have ferocity traits which push them beyond that.

  • Firebeard.1746Firebeard.1746 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 20, 2021

    @Nephalem.8921 said:

    @Firebeard.1746 said:
    You tell people barely clearing content that they're doing worse now because of your sensibilities. The high-end PVE in this game is hard enough without nerfing some of the meta tools for it. If they are nerfing scholar's they need to nerf every boss/encounter in the game accordingly.

    Also, just as a bit of clarification: The thief numbers are assuming 100% flanking uptime, correct? That bonus, if halved to match scholar doesn't compete. Just pointing it out to the person trying to tell me that precision is stronger. It's not. The popular precision runes just have good 6-tier bonuses.

    Is that based on your feelings or math? I used a simple excel sheet for that. For Holo with metabuild i got 0.029% increase in damage for 1 point of precision at an artificial 99%. Currently you critcap without it but just one nerfed trait would put it in that area. Crit at 50% had a 0.4% gain while fero was extremely weak with 0.018%
    Power had like 0.0275% and ferocity 0.0252%.
    Fero > precision is possible but not with meta builds. You would need very low base ferocity. All builds have ferocity traits which push them beyond that.

    Show me which meta build from infusion I was quoting is actually doing better point-for point against precision? I looked at most of them, and even when thief won, it's wasn't by 5% margin it should have if crit was really carrying the day. Thief was only beating anything because of extra damage bonus in the T6 trait. Eagle, in none of the ones I looked at won, which, by the way, would have been the indicator that precision is a stronger stat as Eagle has an almost comparable T6 damage bonus and gives precision over power. Crit wasn't winning anything.

    So basically you're telling me I'm wrong because there's ONE profession and spec against the other 10 that happens to have such insane base ferocity that it's finally close to even and precision barely does better (in a VERY circumstantial case)? I did concede as much before that the two multiplicative stack, but I'm not wrong scholar is meta is most cases. And IS meta with the right comps and you hitting crit cap (and is meta according to the SC site, STILL, on your chosen class).

    I explicitly mentioned circumstances forcing crit higher as a reason ferocity scales better, not sure why we're having this debate. You can't change your runes on the fly unless you're all leggie, so if you're sane, you'd pick scholar's just so you're performing optimally in your best circumstances. I also mentioned crit capping. Not sure why you're focused on such small and circumstantial margins SC shows Scholar's as meta for a reason, and infusion's numbers prove that. Swapping between the two would be WAY too expensive for someone who isn't already all leggie. The only thing you're right about is that there are breakpoints where precision is better, but if you read my OP, it's pretty clear I mentioned this.

    I guess we agree but you misreading me.

  • Nephalem.8921Nephalem.8921 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Firebeard.1746 said:
    So basically you're telling me I'm wrong because there's ONE profession and spec against the other 10 that happens to have such insane base ferocity that it's finally close to even and precision barely does better (in a VERY circumstantial case)? I did concede as much before that the two multiplicative stack, but I'm not wrong scholar is meta is most cases. And IS meta with the right comps and you hitting crit cap (and is meta according to the SC site, STILL, on your chosen class).

    I've chosen holo because it has low base ferocity from traits. Only builds with lower ferocity are dh and chrono. chrono has damage mods only working on crits so its instantly precision > everything for chrono..

    I explicitly mentioned circumstances forcing crit higher as a reason ferocity scales better, not sure why we're having this debate. You can't change your runes on the fly unless you're all leggie, so if you're sane, you'd pick scholar's just so you're performing optimally in your best circumstances. I also mentioned crit capping. Not sure why you're focused on such small and circumstantial margins SC shows Scholar's as meta for a reason, and infusion's numbers prove that. Swapping between the two would be WAY too expensive for someone who isn't already all leggie. The only thing you're right about is that there are breakpoints where precision is better, but if you read my OP, it's pretty clear I mentioned this.

    Of course you change runes or have multiple sets if you minmax. isnt this what its all about? Only 5 players in a group have spotter unless you play with soulbeasts. If you look closely at the sc or ln builds you will see that they mention those situations.
    If you raid berserker would take thief runes because the no flanking runes are niche. Solo you would often take eagle. Virtues dh takes thief aswell.
    Not sure what infusions numbers are but they are not effective power. no idea what discretize calculates there.

    Effective power for warr with spotter:

    Thief: 21336
    scholar: 21165 with accuracy instead of impact aswell. 21138 with full precise infusions otherwise.

    Without spotter:
    Thief: 20937
    scholar: 20766
    no sane warr would primarely play scholar in raids.

  • Infusion.7149Infusion.7149 Member ✭✭✭✭

    SNOWCROWS GEAR OPTIMIZER OUTPUTS for a 10 man squad

    With only 10 man buffs (banners + frost spirit) and 0% scholar uptime
    No empower allies , assassin's presence , spotter or other 5 man profession buffs
    ... because someone said "less reliable parties"...

    ENGINEER

    • Holo - 17,549.25 Eagle | 17,531.09 Scholar 0% uptime | 17,290.56 Thief (not in top 50 results) ---> effectively even

    Sword has 5% weapon strength variance

    RANGER

    • Soulbeast Skirmishing (spotter self supplied but not needed) - 22,790.75 Eagle | 22,682.90 Thief | 22,682.68 Scholar 0% uptime ---> effectively the same, below 0.5% variance
    • Soulbeast Marksmanship - 23,455.40 Thief (Furious stone) | 23,441.08 Thief | 23,123.14 Eagle | 22,062.12 Scholar 0% uptime ---> never can match thief rune (bonus must exceed 6%)

    Axe weapon strength variance is ~10% ; longbow ~ 8% ; dagger ~3%

    THIEF

    • Daredevil - 20,353.32 Eagle (Keen observer unchecked , Twin fangs set to 0% scholar uptime) | 20,146.47 Thief | 19,589.93 Scholar 0% uptime ---> even without scholar bonus ~40% > 90% health is sufficient to be even due to Twin Fangs

    Staff has 6% weapon strength variance

    GUARDIAN

    • Power DH - 17,582.44 Eagle | 17,487.26 Scholar 0% uptime ---> effectively the same, below 0.6% variance
    • Power DH Perfect Inscriptions (discretize build basically) - 17,896.73 Eagle | 17,853.46 Thief | 17,198.80 Scholar 0% uptime ---> 4% effective scholar bonus to be even

    Sword and Greatsword have 5% weapon strength variance

    MESMER

    • Chrono with danger time - 18,741.26 Eagle | 18,549.05 Thief (Furious Stone) | 18,530.68 Thief | 18,092.60 Scholar 0% uptime ---> 3.5% effective scholar bonus to be even
    • Chrono without danger time - 16,249.63 Thief (Furious Stone) | 16,224.96 Thief | 15,949.73 Eagle | 15,190.22 Scholar 0% uptime ---> never can match thief rune (bonus must exceed 6%)

    The above is why unless you stack mesmers with slow sources (and use Chronophantasma) the damage is only on par with other meta classes.

    ELEMENTALIST

    • Power weaver, bolt to the heart - 16,890.68 Eagle | 16,760.95 Thief | 16,202.02 Scholar 0% uptime ---> 4% effective scholar bonus to be even (80% uptime with current bonus)
    • Power weaver, fresh air - 15,746.60 Eagle | 15,642.85 Thief | 15,117.07 Scholar 0% uptime ---> 4% effective scholar bonus to be even
    • Power tempest - 11,619.65 Thief | 11,464.93 Eagle | 10,948.71 Scholar 0% uptime ---> never can match thief rune even in current state without spotter (bonus must exceed 6%)

    The power loss is blunted by Power Overwhelming trait used on weavers.

    WARRIOR

    • Power berserker - 20,500.99 Thief | 20,228.71 Eagle rune | 19,368.31 Scholar 0% uptime ---> never can match thief rune (bonus must exceed 5%)

    NECROMANCER

    • Power reaper - 17,842.09 Eagle | 17,161.21 Scholar 0% uptime ---> 4% effective scholar bonus to be even

    REVENANT

    • Power "boon" herald - 17,768.52 Eagle | 17,305.52 Scholar 0% uptime ---> 2.7% effective scholar bonus to be even (easy on rev)

    If the scholar bonus is reduced to ~3% then up to half of the builds would be marginally better using eagle due to the damage bonus on eagle. Other runes aren't in the Snowcrows calculator and the gap to pack runes and others that are present in the calculator present larger differences. Eagle rune has a large ferocity bonus on top of the damage bonus as mentioned in my first post in this thread.

    The key difference in calculators is the sigils and runes aren't specified. Snowcrows' calculator will more likely drop impact for accuracy and in this scenario spotter was omitted.

  • Nephalem.8921Nephalem.8921 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 20, 2021

    @Infusion.7149 said:
    ENGINEER

    • Holo - 17,549.25 Eagle | 17,531.09 Scholar 0% uptime | 17,290.56 Thief (not in top 50 results) ---> effectively even

    Quite impressive concidering that precision is worthless on holo.

    RANGER

    • Soulbeast Skirmishing (spotter self supplied but not needed) - 22,790.75 Eagle | 22,682.90 Thief | 22,682.68 Scholar 0% uptime ---> effectively the same, below 0.5% variance

    Again precision is useless.

    MESMER

    • Chrono with danger time - 18,741.26 Eagle | 18,549.05 Thief (Furious Stone) | 18,530.68 Thief | 18,092.60 Scholar 0% uptime ---> 3.5% effective scholar bonus to be even
    • Chrono without danger time - 16,249.63 Thief (Furious Stone) | 16,224.96 Thief | 15,949.73 Eagle | 15,190.22 Scholar 0% uptime ---> never can match thief rune (bonus must exceed 6%)

    Its not that simple for mesmer. phantasms are 50% of your dmg and dont scale with mods unless stated by the trait. thats why thief runes are bad on mesmer. use eagle. also accuracy is unusable.

    ELEMENTALIST

    • Power weaver, fresh air - 15,746.60 Eagle | 15,642.85 Thief | 15,117.07 Scholar 0% uptime ---> 4% effective scholar bonus to be even

    Yet flame legion are better because more than 10% of your damage are burning.

    If the scholar bonus is reduced to ~3% then up to half of the builds would be marginally better using eagle due to the damage bonus on eagle. Other runes aren't in the Snowcrows calculator and the gap to pack runes and others that are present in the calculator present larger differences. Eagle rune has a large ferocity bonus on top of the damage bonus as mentioned in my first post in this thread.

    The only builds which need the precision and dont use thief/eagle are 1 weaver build and PI dh. virtues dh still uses thief. I dont see a problem with this. The effective scholar bonus is already closer to 4%-4.5% anyways.

  • Infusion.7149Infusion.7149 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 20, 2021

    @Nephalem.8921 said:

    @Infusion.7149 said:
    ENGINEER

    • Holo - 17,549.25 Eagle | 17,531.09 Scholar 0% uptime | 17,290.56 Thief (not in top 50 results) ---> effectively even

    Quite impressive concidering that precision is worthless on holo.

    RANGER

    • Soulbeast Skirmishing (spotter self supplied but not needed) - 22,790.75 Eagle | 22,682.90 Thief | 22,682.68 Scholar 0% uptime ---> effectively the same, below 0.5% variance

    Again precision is useless.

    MESMER

    • Chrono with danger time - 18,741.26 Eagle | 18,549.05 Thief (Furious Stone) | 18,530.68 Thief | 18,092.60 Scholar 0% uptime ---> 3.5% effective scholar bonus to be even
    • Chrono without danger time - 16,249.63 Thief (Furious Stone) | 16,224.96 Thief | 15,949.73 Eagle | 15,190.22 Scholar 0% uptime ---> never can match thief rune (bonus must exceed 6%)

    Its not that simple for mesmer. phantasms are 50% of your dmg and dont scale with mods unless stated by the trait. thats why thief runes are bad on mesmer. use eagle. also accuracy is unusable.

    Even if there's only 50% uptime on thief it does respectably in that scenario and in actuality ~60% of power chrono damage is from the player (even more so if you run Seize the Moment , it's ~77%). Phantasms (not clones) flank around 60-70% of the time anyway.

    @Nephalem.8921 said:

    ELEMENTALIST

    • Power weaver, fresh air - 15,746.60 Eagle | 15,642.85 Thief | 15,117.07 Scholar 0% uptime ---> 4% effective scholar bonus to be even

    Yet flame legion are better because more than 10% of your damage are burning.

    If the scholar bonus is reduced to ~3% then up to half of the builds would be marginally better using eagle due to the damage bonus on eagle. Other runes aren't in the Snowcrows calculator and the gap to pack runes and others that are present in the calculator present larger differences. Eagle rune has a large ferocity bonus on top of the damage bonus as mentioned in my first post in this thread.

    The only builds which need the precision and dont use thief/eagle are 1 weaver build and PI dh. virtues dh still uses thief. I dont see a problem with this. The effective scholar bonus is already closer to 4%-4.5% anyways.

    According to who?
    Not Lucky Noobs, not Snowcrows, not discretize. Are we to take your word for it? That's as absurd as telling people without legendary armor or endless extractors to change their runes for every encounter for ~5% damage differences at best.

    I've given A. the source of my calculations rather than some vague "excel sheet" , B. the ways to reproduce it.
    Having gone through the code used on the sites circa last year I have rather high confidence in them. No need to reinvent the wheel.

    For your elementalist build case, which is only one variant and the lower average bench, it can be replicated in discretize calculator by adjusting the damage split.
    With a 88% power and 12% burning split on discretize calculator with ferocity food, force, impact 3% (not even full 10%), no spotter , assassin's presence, empower allies, or bane signet , 0AR , the Damage Indicator as specified by discretize:

    • Scholar with full current bonus 2,130.266 (effective power 24,392.242)
    • Scholar with full current bonus 2,130.266 (effective power 24,392.242) with 100 precision 70 ferocity food , so exactly the same
    • Thief 2,112.921 (effective power 24,165.401) ---> drops with precision food to 2,066.595 (effective power 23,625.808)
    • Eagle 2,130.252 (effective power 24,392.075) ---> with 50% uptime this would drop to ~2,033 damage indicator (effective power ~23,283)
    • Spellbreaker 2,098.075 (effective power 24,017.281) ---> drops with precision food
    • Flame Legion 2,063.155 (effective power 23,435.326 , 70% burn duration) ---> same thing with precision food
    • Ogre 2,044.436 (effective power 23,392.515) ---> same thing with precision food
    • Scholar w/o bonus 2,030.544 (effective power 23,230.707) ---> same thing with precision food
    • Strength 2,010.5 (effective power 22,997.283) ---> same thing with precision food
    • Pack 1,974.853 (effective power 22,582.028) ---> drops with precision food

    Note superior elements is not checked off by default and assassin's presence (from renegades) is checked by default because discretize is oriented toward fractals.


    An ideal scale back of Scholar rune would put it roughly on par with whatever is next best rather than making it an outright poor choice. If this had been the goal in mind in the 2018 rebalance we would not even have this discussion. Most casual people would think 2% health bonus is the same as before (8.3% crit and 2% health bonus is ~ 10%) if they don't pay attention to combat math.

    Lack of spotter can be supplemented by Bowl of Curry Butternut Squash Soup or other 100 precision food if not min-maxing. Lifesteal on ascended food isn't available but accounts for 162.5 DPS.

    If thief runes were more utilized it would actually be healthier than if eagle runes were heavily utilized simply for the fact that the crafting requires charm of skill rather than charm of brilliance. It also would put more emphasis on positioning rather than just overhealing.

  • Firebeard.1746Firebeard.1746 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 20, 2021

    @Nephalem.8921 said:
    If you raid berserker would take thief runes because the no flanking runes are niche. Solo you would often take eagle. Virtues dh takes thief aswell.
    Not sure what infusions numbers are but they are not effective power. no idea what discretize calculates there.

    I guess we're on a different page then. I'm not going to have an entirely different gear set just for a set of runes. I'll take the one that does best most of the time, which would be scholar's. Even if it lags the others a little bit in edge cases, it's not by much and you're sacrificing top-notch performance for it.

  • Nephalem.8921Nephalem.8921 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Firebeard.1746 said:

    @Nephalem.8921 said:
    If you raid berserker would take thief runes because the no flanking runes are niche. Solo you would often take eagle. Virtues dh takes thief aswell.
    Not sure what infusions numbers are but they are not effective power. no idea what discretize calculates there.

    I guess we're on a different page then. I'm not going to have an entirely different gear set just for a set of runes. I'll take the one that does best most of the time, which would be scholar's. Even if it lags the others a little bit in edge cases, it's not by much and you're sacrificing top-notch performance for it.

    Its the opposite in raids. There are 2 encounters where flanking isnt possible. you would be suboptimal for the majority just to be better at 2? In raids thief is best most of the time.

    @Infusion.7149 said:
    Even if there's only 50% uptime on thief it does respectably in that scenario and in actuality ~60% of power chrono damage is from the player (even more so if you run Seize the Moment , it's ~77%). Phantasms (not clones) flank around 60-70% of the time anyway.

    Doesnt matter if phantasms flank because they are not affected by mods from runes. only bare stats and some traits apply. thats why accuracy isnt good either and your scholar build used it. you want your phantasms to crit because mesmer has 2 damage mods that only work on crits. those are affecting your phantasms. 30% eagle vs 60% thief lets eagle runes win hard.

    The only builds which need the precision and dont use thief/eagle are 1 weaver build and PI dh. virtues dh still uses thief. I dont see a problem with this. The effective scholar bonus is already closer to 4%-4.5% anyways.

    According to who?
    Not Lucky Noobs, not Snowcrows, not discretize. Are we to take your word for it? That's as absurd as telling people without legendary armor or endless extractors to change their runes for every encounter for ~5% damage differences at best.

    Do you mean my stated effective scholar bonus? arc logs that and i went through a couple of logs. highest was 4.88% and lowest 2.8%. Most of the time it was around 4.2%.
    If you mean flame legion runes. both sites mention those. you know you could just have different sets with different runes. raids and fractals reward you with countless ascended chests. what are you using them for?

    An ideal scale back of Scholar rune would put it roughly on par with whatever is next best rather than making it an outright poor choice. If this had been the goal in mind in the 2018 rebalance we would not even have this discussion. Most casual people would think 2% health bonus is the same as before (8.3% crit and 2% health bonus is ~ 10%) if they don't pay attention to combat math.

    There are simply no other power fero mod runes and why should there? a single straight forward damage option is better than having 10 options nobody uses because mathematically one is the best.

  • Infusion.7149Infusion.7149 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 21, 2021

    @Nephalem.8921 said:

    @Infusion.7149 said:
    Even if there's only 50% uptime on thief it does respectably in that scenario and in actuality ~60% of power chrono damage is from the player (even more so if you run Seize the Moment , it's ~77%). Phantasms (not clones) flank around 60-70% of the time anyway.

    Doesnt matter if phantasms flank because they are not affected by mods from runes. only bare stats and some traits apply. thats why accuracy isnt good either and your scholar build used it. you want your phantasms to crit because mesmer has 2 damage mods that only work on crits. those are affecting your phantasms. 30% eagle vs 60% thief lets eagle runes win hard.

    The only builds which need the precision and dont use thief/eagle are 1 weaver build and PI dh. virtues dh still uses thief. I dont see a problem with this. The effective scholar bonus is already closer to 4%-4.5% anyways.

    According to who?
    Not Lucky Noobs, not Snowcrows, not discretize. Are we to take your word for it? That's as absurd as telling people without legendary armor or endless extractors to change their runes for every encounter for ~5% damage differences at best.

    Do you mean my stated effective scholar bonus? arc logs that and i went through a couple of logs. highest was 4.88% and lowest 2.8%. Most of the time it was around 4.2%.
    If you mean flame legion runes. both sites mention those. you know you could just have different sets with different runes. raids and fractals reward you with countless ascended chests. what are you using them for?

    An ideal scale back of Scholar rune would put it roughly on par with whatever is next best rather than making it an outright poor choice. If this had been the goal in mind in the 2018 rebalance we would not even have this discussion. Most casual people would think 2% health bonus is the same as before (8.3% crit and 2% health bonus is ~ 10%) if they don't pay attention to combat math.

    There are simply no other power fero mod runes and why should there? a single straight forward damage option is better than having 10 options nobody uses because mathematically one is the best.

    First of all it isn't "my build" , it is the output from an automated tool for a meta build. If you factor in 60% + of damage is from the player, thief runes still do respectably (within 2%). In addition, as I stated in the analysis it generally isn't worth it to run a mesmer without danger time (and without spotter on top of that) generally so that is only for illustrative purposes. "Win hard" is not an analysis in any scholastic environment, use numbers.

    Superiority Complex doesn't affect Illusions. So unless you mean bleeding on crits from Sharper Images...

    Which site mentions Flame Legion runes as a top pick on the actual build pages for weaver? Please link that page. Just because it is in the calculator doesn't mean it is recommended.

    If your average / median (not sure what "most of the time" means in your wording) scholar bonus is 4.2% then it just reinforces Firebeard's argument that it is the superior choice for the majority of situations.

    Also if you are looking at this from the point of view from someone that has legendaries that is going to be different than your average player. Just because I have legendary gear shouldn't invalidate everyone that doesn't have it , plus plenty of people have alt accounts. There's loads of players still using exotics and even rares I found out. That's similar to telling players new to raids that investing into multiple sets of gear for it is going to be profitable when the ROI is going to be severely negative compared to open-world.

    A "single straightforward damage option" really ought not to be exceeding every other option by the entire amount of damage bonus on other runes even in extremely unfavored scenarios. That's basically what is happening on soulbeast , holo, daredevil, power DH, and likely power revenants even when you factor in your "most of the time" +4.2% (i.e. the entire bonus on ogre rune). Ultimately that is what Firebeard was trying to convey in a less eloquent manner I believe, although his target methodology of addressing it was probably to buff every other applicable rune that under-performs relative to Scholar.

  • Nephalem.8921Nephalem.8921 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Infusion.7149 said:
    Which site mentions Flame Legion runes as a top pick on the actual build pages for weaver? Please link that page. Just because it is in the calculator doesn't mean it is recommended.

    https://lucky-noobs.com/builds/power-weaver
    It is also used in the benchmark sc video. Actually its more about hitbox size. sabetha and xera have such a small hitbox size that lightning storm becomes very weak and fire storm adds a lot of burning. those bosses have way smaller hitboxes than the smallest golem.

    If your average / median (not sure what "most of the time" means in your wording) scholar bonus is 4.2% then it just reinforces Firebeard's argument that it is the superior choice for the majority of situations.

    For raids and fractals weaver yes. for open world? no. not at all.

    Also if you are looking at this from the point of view from someone that has legendaries that is going to be different than your average player. Just because I have legendary gear shouldn't invalidate everyone that doesn't have it , plus plenty of people have alt accounts. There's loads of players still using exotics and even rares I found out. That's similar to telling players new to raids that investing into multiple sets of gear for it is going to be profitable when the ROI is going to be severely negative compared to open-world.

    You dont have to invest into multiple sets of gear. you will drop them.

    A "single straightforward damage option" really ought not to be exceeding every other option by the entire amount of damage bonus on other runes even in extremely unfavored scenarios. That's basically what is happening on soulbeast , holo, daredevil, power DH, and likely power revenants even when you factor in your "most of the time" +4.2% (i.e. the entire bonus on ogre rune). Ultimately that is what Firebeard was trying to convey in a less eloquent manner I believe, although his target methodology of addressing it was probably to buff every other applicable rune that under-performs relative to Scholar.

    Only 4 power/ferocity runes exist. only 2 have damage mods. Buffing ogre might be better here instead of buffing precision granting runes to be comparable to scholar for classes that dont even need the precision.
    Or nerf classes so they wont critcap with just banners and fury. would just create a new "best everywhere" rune but it wouldnt be scholar.

  • lare.5129lare.5129 Member ✭✭✭✭

    thanks for new for me resource Lets think that they suggest!

    want solid balance ? - play chess.

  • Infusion.7149Infusion.7149 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 24, 2021

    @Nephalem.8921 said:

    @Infusion.7149 said:
    Which site mentions Flame Legion runes as a top pick on the actual build pages for weaver? Please link that page. Just because it is in the calculator doesn't mean it is recommended.

    https://lucky-noobs.com/builds/power-weaver
    It is also used in the benchmark sc video. Actually its more about hitbox size. sabetha and xera have such a small hitbox size that lightning storm becomes very weak and fire storm adds a lot of burning. those bosses have way smaller hitboxes than the smallest golem.

    If your average / median (not sure what "most of the time" means in your wording) scholar bonus is 4.2% then it just reinforces Firebeard's argument that it is the superior choice for the majority of situations.

    For raids and fractals weaver yes. for open world? no. not at all.

    Also if you are looking at this from the point of view from someone that has legendaries that is going to be different than your average player. Just because I have legendary gear shouldn't invalidate everyone that doesn't have it , plus plenty of people have alt accounts. There's loads of players still using exotics and even rares I found out. That's similar to telling players new to raids that investing into multiple sets of gear for it is going to be profitable when the ROI is going to be severely negative compared to open-world.

    You dont have to invest into multiple sets of gear. you will drop them.

    A "single straightforward damage option" really ought not to be exceeding every other option by the entire amount of damage bonus on other runes even in extremely unfavored scenarios. That's basically what is happening on soulbeast , holo, daredevil, power DH, and likely power revenants even when you factor in your "most of the time" +4.2% (i.e. the entire bonus on ogre rune). Ultimately that is what Firebeard was trying to convey in a less eloquent manner I believe, although his target methodology of addressing it was probably to buff every other applicable rune that under-performs relative to Scholar.

    Only 4 power/ferocity runes exist. only 2 have damage mods. Buffing ogre might be better here instead of buffing precision granting runes to be comparable to scholar for classes that dont even need the precision.
    Or nerf classes so they wont critcap with just banners and fury. would just create a new "best everywhere" rune but it wouldnt be scholar.

    Well it's not the default build and neither is it the default rune (i.e. the top pick) ; weaver isn't commonly used anymore and in the video description on SC they even say if you use Fresh air you should probably be running condi weaver. They wrote the following: "Everywhere else btth quite clearly wins out - that being said, a lot of the bosses I listed here in favor of Fresh air generally are even more in favor of condition builds, so on the bosses that favor power, btth definitely wins more often than Fresh air." The only time power weaver is listed as a team comp recommended build by LN guild is on Slothasor with BttH.

    Full disclosure: I have a vested interest in the toning down of Scholar rune because it's the most common power rune in WvW as well. Before you reply "there's no spotter or banners" , well there's keep bonuses and tower bonuses which add precision (+100 , +200 with Presence of the Keep) and people running heralds in squads have perma-fury.

    People tend to share armor with runes between fractals/raids. Some even share it in WVW if they don't use WVW infusions. "Just dropping them" is not a viable solution. I would think that PVE-minded people would gear with banner in mind generally and not always expect spotter which means using precision food would make those setups viable in open-world also if they want to min-max in open-world.

    Buffing ogre rune would not help the situation because you would be normalizing it to scholar rather than toning down scholar. In 2018 when there was the rune rebalance, it was scholar rune that was majorly changed and not ogre , which hasn't seen the same level of powercreep as +65 ferocity is ~4%. It would also have implications for WvW because a flat "always available" bonus is far easier to maintain and previously Golemancer runes were problematic when a full squad used them so anything with spawned mobs should be held to a lower expected value. There would be no buffing of precision runes if scholar rune was nerfed to a comparable level, you'd just shave the differences between the top rune and several other options.

    Nerfing classes isn't the way to go, unless you mean the danger time damage bonus (rather than crit chance) on chronos which encourages chrono stacking similar to how stacked DHs with "Feel my Wrath" were deemed problematic in the past. Skirmishing soulbeast has already seen a toned down merged bonus so any changes would have to be extremely minor at best. Power DH (not Virtues which is gimmicky due to reliance on aegis) is in a respectable position due to burst only, holo has only DPS to bring to the table and not much else (A.E.D. ignoring mechanics + some CC are not enough to make it a staple), daredevil is mediocre right now when you can't run boon daredevil, power boon rev isn't widely used in PVE. Those classes would still be relatively intact with a minor scholar rune reduction, but cutting the crit chance would be a far larger hit to them and would have larger ramifications in terms of player complaints , reinvestment in runes and/or assassin's pieces, and associated negative feedback.

    If you look at LN numbers rather than grind benches you get the following:

    • Power Chrono 42.5K --- scholar rune with danger time
    • Power Deadeye 40K --- scholar rune
    • Power Sword weaver BttH 38K --- scholar rune
    • Power Holo 37.9K --- scholar rune
    • Power Soulbeast Longbow 36.3K --- scholar rune
    • Power Axe Berserker 35.3K (banner is 32.45K) --- this isn't scholar rune but thief rune
    • Power Staff Daredevil 35K --- scholar rune
    • Power Sword DH 33.7K --- scholar rune
    • Power Reaper 32.8K --- scholar rune
    • StM Chrono presumably ~31K --- scholar rune with danger time
    • Power alac Renegade 22.6K --- scholar rune

    There's essentially only one thing in common across the board and that is scholar rune across 8 classes. In fractals it's across 9 classes.