A thought regarding Jormag/Primordus

What if the resolution to the Jormag/Primordus conflict isn’t to kill one or the other, but to merge them into something new.

I think one or two people have also brought that up on this sub-forum. Its an interesting idea but I'm not sure it'd work with how the All is supposed to function, we still need a minimum of four ED's to keep Tyria from being destroyed and I'm not currently inclined to think that a composite ED will allow us to circumvent that requirement.

@The Greyhawk.9107 said:I think one or two people have also brought that up on this sub-forum. Its an interesting idea but I'm not sure it'd work with how the All is supposed to function, we still need a minimum of four ED's to keep Tyria from being destroyed and I'm not currently inclined to think that a composite ED will allow us to circumvent that requirement.

To be fair, there's still so much we don't know about The All and it feels like something they could easily modify by expanding on what we know. I mean, all we know right now is just a primitive understanding of a machine built by a moral Asura. And research done by another. - Well, and technically Glint and her prophecy.

But the exalted lore person in Eye of The North seemed to be pretty vague on the prophecy stating that Glint didn't have much information on what happened after Aurene's ascension. I think that's kind of hinting at the possibility that there could be more involved. Maybe not.

But - with the introduction of Jormag and Primordus being each other's opposites, and Zhaitan and Mordremoth seemingly being opposing, could it be that the balance in the All is more like a magnetic pole?

I.e. 3 positive dragons and 3 negative dragons. When we eliminated Zhaitan the scales were uneven, the power went to Mordremoth. We killed Mordremoth and the power was divided amongst the remaining dragons. Kralk was immediately replaced by Aurene.

So at this moment, if either Jormag or Primordus dies we'll have an imbalance in that polarity again. But what happens if they BOTH die. Sure we'll have a crap ton of magic released and Aurene and DSD will wind up getting supercharged, but with them being on opposing ends of the scale is that enough to keep the All from collapsing and Tyria from unraveling?

I just feel like we have so little information on The All that they could really devise the story however they wanted to make it fit. I could honestly see Aurene becoming the one elder dragon that contains all (TEMPORARILY) with a living season following End of Dragons that deals with her gifting magic and domains to other forces, i.e. Spirits of the Wild, the Pale Tree, etc.

But I'm hoping we'll have a bit more clarification on some of this after Braham's debut next week with the Vision of the Past. The lore in general in these DRM's hasn't really left much room for discussion or really felt like they advanced the plot much if we're actually dealing with ANY elder dragon this saga.

Well, assuming to Taimi's simulation, destroying the two dragons simultaneously would result in Tyria's destruction, so it doesn't seem to be that there's some balancing factor between them that allows the All to remain balanced if both are removed simultaneously. Unless there's some factor that the simulation didn't allow for, of course.

How Aurene's ascension might change that, however, is unknown. We seem to be getting an indication that the Spirits of the Wild might be able to absorb or otherwise contain the released energies somehow: "the Wild together can direct the fall". What that actually means, however, seems to be a matter for the upcoming release(s).

Taimi's situation regarded using Omadd's device to link primordus to jormag on the level of eternal alchemy to have their magics negate each other, and both die. Simulation visual shows a system where EDs were represented by orbiting orbs with blue (ice) and red (fire) on oposing ends, being forced together, with electric-style static between then, and when they got smooshed one into another they generated blast that blew up whole system.

I am still baffled how all NPCs, and hugelot of players still are so convinced that it must mean that reducing number of EDs is what will blow up tyria, and not notice that method of killing elder dragons may have anything to do with simulation result.

So while there were furhter notions of magical ecosystem going out of whack with less elder dragons anyway, I would still say, that the issue at hand is trying to use primordus and Jormag against each other. And that is sort of reinforced by one o Jormag dialogues in the champions: Jormag states, that they and Primordus are oposing sides of the same coin, and thus cannot exactly look at each other. Which was response to question asking why jormag needs asuran research if they know primordus so well.

And also note to bear in mind, the notion that primordus is Jormags weakness and vice versa came from Taimi as well. That could be misinterpretation of data as well. Let's say that Elder Dragon of Ice is vulnerable to sufficiently strong fire magic, and Elder Dragon if fire is vulnerable to sufficiently strong ice magic, then of course they would be vulnerable to each other. But we have examples of magic that was able to affect Jormag, that either was unrelated to primordus, or the sourse is unknown. Eternal Flame is one of those examples, and the other are Jotun Enchantments from scrolls. Fang of Jormag was removed with weapon enchanted with "Jotun Magic", and subsequently shattered with bow enchanted with similar "jotun magic". And we know nothing on the source of "Jotun Magic" used to create these.

That being said I'd like to raise another thought. Considering how so far Primordus and Jormag are presented as complete oposites, and Jormag is all into being smart, classy and persuasive to everyone. What if Primordus mental capabilities are also complete oposition to Jormag? What if Primordus is, let's say "primordial" Elder Dragon? Maybe it is just processing magic, and does not have the mental capability to even realize that it is damaging anything. Jormag calling him "that monster" would certainly fit that one.And what if, due to not having basically any mental capabilities, primordus was open to a good old mind control or something alike. Now the last phrase given to us by owl spirit is vague enought to be able to fit into basically anything, but maybe Spirits of the wild may be able to, actually direct the actions of primordus when they are together? (That would enable us to get rid of jormag, make sure that ice magic stays away from primordus, and then have primordus do his magic processing without ruining the world above)

@"Lord Trejgon.2809" said:That being said I'd like to raise another thought. Considering how so far Primordus and Jormag are presented as complete oposites, and Jormag is all into being smart, classy and persuasive to everyone. What if Primordus mental capabilities are also complete oposition to Jormag? What if Primordus is, let's say "primordial" Elder Dragon? Maybe it is just processing magic, and does not have the mental capability to even realize that it is damaging anything. Jormag calling him "that monster" would certainly fit that one.

Maybe Jormag is the analytical and mindful dragon, while Primordus is emotional and instinctual.

When Kralk burst, even though Aurene absorbed him, it seems that some aspects of Kralk got loose and absorbed by other dragons. Primordus seems to have synergized part of Kralkkatorrics rage, and Jormag, well where did Jormag get the idea to preserve this world in ice, which is very similar to how Kralk wanted to encase the world in brand. The current state of Jormag and Primodus, would be because Jormag absorbed Kralks thoughts, and Primordus absorbed Kralks emotions.

Going into deeper speculation, I don't really get why Aurene wasn't able to fully constrain Kralks magics when he died. Do you think, Aurene overwhelmed with Ascention let Kralk's rage slip and feed Primordus, and Let some of Kralk's thoughts slip and feed Jormag? Maybe she already visited them and accidentally traded magic with them, and that is why she is so reticent to directly confront them again.

@PseudoNewb.5468 said:Maybe Jormag is the analytical and mindful dragon, while Primordus is emotional and instinctual.

When Kralk burst, even though Aurene absorbed him, it seems that some aspects of Kralk got loose and absorbed by other dragons. Primordus seems to have synergized part of Kralkkatorrics rage, and Jormag, well where did Jormag get the idea to preserve this world in ice, which is very similar to how Kralk wanted to encase the world in brand. The current state of Jormag and Primodus, would be because Jormag absorbed Kralks thoughts, and Primordus absorbed Kralks emotions.

Going into deeper speculation, I don't really get why Aurene wasn't able to fully constrain Kralks magics when he died. Do you think, Aurene overwhelmed with Ascention let Kralk's rage slip and feed Primordus, and Let some of Kralk's thoughts slip and feed Jormag? Maybe she already visited them and accidentally traded magic with them, and that is why she is so reticent to directly confront them again.

I think we have sort of pre-established precedence that when elder dragon dies, it's impossible to contain it's magic fully - when Mordremoth died, even jormag that was pretty much on the other end of continent, was able to get some of the jungle aspect magic (even if it only ever spawned single vine-touched icebrood). And that's with whole city of tarir built to channel that energy into aurene hatching.

So yeah I think your theory could make sense in here with jormag and primordus getting different aspects of kralk for themselves. As for Aurene being reluctant to confront other elder dragons - I think we need here to remember that whole upraisal of aurene involves elder dragons being a threat to her, and also the last time she directly confronted one whole experience was not exactly pleasant. and who knows if she can still pull a joko if she lost again.

@PseudoNewb.5468 said:

@"Lord Trejgon.2809" said:That being said I'd like to raise another thought. Considering how so far Primordus and Jormag are presented as complete oposites, and Jormag is all into being smart, classy and persuasive to everyone. What if Primordus mental capabilities are also complete oposition to Jormag? What if Primordus is, let's say "primordial" Elder Dragon? Maybe it is just processing magic, and does not have the mental capability to even realize that it is damaging anything. Jormag calling him "that monster" would certainly fit that one.

I does make sense if Primordus gained some of Kralkatorrik’s Fury aspect while Jormag gained some Crystal aspect. I find it very strange that we have these two new abilities from the dragons, such as the “feedback loop” and Jormag’s Frozen.

What’s more convincing is these dragons are not young they been around for countless millennia. Is anyone else buying that throughout all the ages that these dragons have been alive, that Jormag hasn’t figured out that Primordus can’t burn Jormag’s Frozen. It even stated that Primordus has lashed out at Jormag before. I would suspect that minions of the dragons battle each other in the distant past, Jormag didn’t figured out that strategy then?

Maybe the reason that Jormag is experimenting is because the Frozen is a new ability, possibly combined with the crystal aspect.

@Tyson.5160 said:I does make sense if Primordus gained some of Kralkatorrik’s Fury aspect while Jormag gained some Crystal aspect. I find it very strange that we have these two new abilities from the dragons, such as the “feedback loop” and Jormag’s Frozen.

Well to be fair the feedback loop does not need to be exactly new one, it could just be the case of surface dwellers unable to measure it before.

What’s more convincing is these dragons are not young they been around for countless millennia. Is anyone else buying that throughout all the ages that these dragons have been alive, that Jormag hasn’t figured out that Primordus can’t burn Jormag’s Frozen. It even stated that Primordus has lashed out at Jormag before. I would suspect that minions of the dragons battle each other in the distant past, Jormag didn’t figured out that strategy then?

Maybe the reason that Jormag is experimenting is because the Frozen is a new ability, possibly combined with the crystal aspect.

The whole line that Primordus can't melt Jormag's ice didn't make much sense to me when I played through that DRM first time around, these two are literaly their respective weaknesses. But indeed what you are suggesting here would make sense. If that is a new form of ice, that Jormag has got access to by chugging a bit of Kralk's Crystaline magic, then it could plug in the weakness hole, maybe by replacing Jormag's Ice innate weakness with kralk's. So what we would get there would be basically brand that can thaw over time.

Now the only issue I have here is that it starts sounding like all those lore theories I both heard, and created in the past, that were fitting perfectly but it turned out that factional story later on was much more simplistic and boring.....

@Lord Trejgon.2809 said:

@Tyson.5160 said:I does make sense if Primordus gained some of Kralkatorrik’s Fury aspect while Jormag gained some Crystal aspect. I find it very strange that we have these two new abilities from the dragons, such as the “feedback loop” and Jormag’s Frozen.

I was thinking the destroyers becoming rabid and unruly as Taimi and Marjory pointed out, could be the Fury aspect flaring up.

@"Tyson.5160" said:I was thinking the destroyers becoming rabid and unruly as Taimi and Marjory pointed out, could be the Fury aspect flaring up.

Yeah I understand where you are coming from in here, I was just saying that before we made that observation, destroyers were comparatively rare sight compared to other dragon minions, and the "instruments" taimi used to figure the feedback loop out are recent development. So technically they could have had that ability before with us never noticing. But it could be that you are right and it's primordus adapting some bits of Kralk's spectrum.

That being said....

Anyone knows what happened to vine-touched destroyers? ;)

@Lord Trejgon.2809 said:

@"Tyson.5160" said:I was thinking the destroyers becoming rabid and unruly as Taimi and Marjory pointed out, could be the Fury aspect flaring up.

“These destroyers seem to be free of Zhaitan's or Mordremoth's magic.An astute observation. Primordus' slumber may have allowed it time to process the foreign magic—or alter itself to accommodate it. We don't really know at this point.”

@"Lord Trejgon.2809" said:And also note to bear in mind, the notion that primordus is Jormags weakness and vice versa came from Taimi as well. That could be misinterpretation of data as well. Let's say that Elder Dragon of Ice is vulnerable to sufficiently strong fire magic, and Elder Dragon if fire is vulnerable to sufficiently strong ice magic, then of course they would be vulnerable to each other. But we have examples of magic that was able to affect Jormag, that either was unrelated to primordus, or the sourse is unknown. Eternal Flame is one of those examples, and the other are Jotun Enchantments from scrolls. Fang of Jormag was removed with weapon enchanted with "Jotun Magic", and subsequently shattered with bow enchanted with similar "jotun magic". And we know nothing on the source of "Jotun Magic" used to create these.

We're getting an indication, though, that the magic from the jotun scroll might have been taken from Primordus to use against Jormag, just like we used Kralkatorrik's blood against the Branded and, ultimately, Kralkatorrik himself. Braham is showing signs of having developed some sort of connection to Primordus, whether he wants it or not, and at the moment the magic of the scroll is basically our best guess as to how that might have happened.

@Tyson.5160 said:Yeah Phlunt has a little bit of dialogue in the EOTN.

“These destroyers seem to be free of Zhaitan's or Mordremoth's magic.An astute observation. Primordus' slumber may have allowed it time to process the foreign magic—or alter itself to accommodate it. We don't really know at this point.”

oh, I completely didn't notice Phlunt out of everyone being in there. Thanks for info tho :)

@draxynnic.3719 said:We're getting an indication, though, that the magic from the jotun scroll might have been taken from Primordus to use against Jormag, just like we used Kralkatorrik's blood against the Branded and, ultimately, Kralkatorrik himself. Braham is showing signs of having developed some sort of connection to Primordus, whether he wants it or not, and at the moment the magic of the scroll is basically our best guess as to how that might have happened.

well Jotun magic having originated from zhaitan is one theory for sure, but I am unsure if there is enough in the game to call it sure. As for throwing blame on brahams sensing destroyers onto the scroll and the bow - he only started showing these abilities quite decently long after he was separated from that bow. So if scroll was the cause then my first question is why would it show so late. He got the bow enchanted during LS3, carried it throughout whole PoF and LS4, lost it at the beginning of IBS, and only started showing new abilities during champions DRMs. And since he lost the bow, he was interacting with fallen spirits of the wild, has nearly fallen himself to jormag, and interacted with even more fallen spirits of the wild. Oh and a whole charr civil war happened in between, with quite a chunk of a time jump between bjora marches arch and drizzlewood coast. And link to destroyers is not the only ability he has developped, he has also shown interesting levels of connection to spirits of the wild. So myself I would be leaning more towards this being some spirits of the wild background shenanigans.

@draxynnic.3719 said:Braham is showing signs of having developed some sort of connection to PrimordusThere are no signs of Braham being connected to Primordus in any way.Him being able to track Destroyers most likely is a boon granted by Wolf, which would be the same boon players got from Wolf in GW1 to track Svanir (who was a dragon minion at that time).

@Fueki.4753 said:

@draxynnic.3719 said:Braham is showing signs of having developed some sort of connection to PrimordusThere are no signs of Braham being connected to Primordus in any way.Him being able to track Destroyers most likely is a boon granted by Wolf, which would be the same boon players got from Wolf in GW1 to track Svanir (who was a dragon minion at that time).

Seems to be more then just tracking Fueki, saying there are no connection in anyway is a bit absurd, especially with the way that Braham has been describing the experience being a kin to sensing Spirits of the Wild, but different.

Look at what Myrun in the Thunderhead peak DRM.

“Myrun Skialkin: The destroyers are calling to you, aren't they? You sense each other—use that against them!Braham Eirsson: How did you— What?”

You would think if it was purely a Wolf tracking ability then that the Destroyers wouldn’t be able to sense Braham, but they do.

Look at the Snowdiwn Drifts DRM:

“: Braham, you're not sensing destroyers again by any chance?Braham Eirsson: No. No. That's pressure building in my ears. This is about the Spirits. I can't explain, but I can feel the difference.”

The tracking in GW1 with the Norn bear is using wolf to track the Svanir by smell, it says it through the mission itself. This ability that Braham seems to be something else entirely, is it related to the bow? Maybe, but I’m sure we will get further answers on Tuesday.

There might be some evidence the scroll affected both Braham and the bow.The scroll seemingly required an invocation phrase, and Braham activated the magic by saying"For the might of the fire lives in my heart and in this bow. No chill will extinguish its light."This could indicate the scroll empowers fire magic not just to the weapon, but also it's wielder.If the scroll holds part of Primordu's power, it may be doing something to Braham now that Primordus is nearly awake.

@PseudoNewb.5468 said:If the scroll holds part of Primordu's power, it may be doing something to Braham now that Primordus is nearly awake.

A reminder that primordus was fully awake when Braham used the scroll, and he didn't feel destroyers back then. Only started to do so recently.

I really want for gw2 to transition from a world where eds are threats and unreasonable to abworld where eds and their followers make up factions with political power and sway over the populous.

A gw2 that takes the eds more to the backdrop and brings forth their representatives and champions and its an arc about these factions coexisting sounds more interesting.